August 9, 2025 • 11 mins
Labour's leader believes lessons can be learnt from a lack of communication from his party on NCEA changes.
Education Minister Erica Stanford reached out to Labour's education spokeswoman Willow-Jean Prime at least three times, asking for her input on the changes but she failed to respond.
Following the announcement, Labour criticised the Government's minimal cross party consultation.
Leader Chris Hipkins says Willow-Jean has learned a lot from this.
"The key thing now is that we do need cross-party collaboration to make sure that the changes to the NCEA are enduring."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As I just mentioned on Friday we learned that the
opposition ignored government's request to meet over major education reforms.
Then yesterday Green Party leader Chloe Warbrock claims the Greens
are basically leading the opposition, So what are Labor up
to do? They believe that they are doing a good job,
and Opposition Labor leader Chris Hopkins joins me. Now, good morning, Chris,
thank you for your time on a Sunday morning.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
No worries, good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Should will I Jene Prime have met with the government
over education.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Reforms, yes, and I made that clear this week as well.
I think Willow was texted by your Costenta that I
think the day she got the portfolio, and at the
time she indicated she well. At the time she indicated
to me she wanted to meet with the education sector
presentatives before meeting with the government, but she didn't convey
that to Eric Stanford and she should have done, and
(00:58):
then she should have accepted the invitation to meet. So
I've made that clear. I think Willo's learned a lot
from this particular episode. But I think the keith now
is that we do need cross party collaboration to make
sure that the changes to the NCAA are enduring and
that parents and students can have faith in the national
qualification system that we have as a country. I think
(01:19):
that is the most important thing and I would hate
for that to be lost in any political point scoring
that's gone on in the last week.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Is Labor open to collaboration with the government on important.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Reforms, Absolutely so. If you take Nceea for example, that
this review process actually started when I was Minister of
Education and at that time I invited Niki Kay not
just to meet with me, but to meet with the
people who were conducting the review, to meet with all
of the stakeholders. We got all the stakeholders together into
a big stakeholder forum so they could talk about it,
(01:51):
and Niki Kay was invited to that. In fact, I
think Erica Stamford may have attended some of those meetings
brought along by Nicki Kay, because I think this is
one of those areas that needs to be beyond politics.
And when it comes to replying to letters, of course,
Christopher Luxe and there's a number of letters for me
from me offering bipartisan support on a range of issues
which EAS yet to reply to you. So I sort
(02:13):
of take the current criticism over the last week with
a little bit of a grain of salt.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, So, what areas are you collaborating or all these
sort of cross party discussion happening at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, if you look at areas around infrastructure, I think
that's vitally important that we have a more bipartisan approach
to infrastructure because the stop start nature of us sorting
out infrastructure issues is one of the things that has
got us into the pickle that we're in now, and
it's one of the things that push us up the
cost as well. So we need to collaborate on infrastructure.
(02:46):
I think big long term issues like the national qualification
system for our kids at school should be something that
we collaborate quite a lot on. I think issues around
national security we do actually collaborate quite a lot on those.
You don't hear us talking about that much because of
the often the confidential and sensitive nature of that, but
we do collaborate on those issues quite a lot, and
(03:06):
I think that's important we keep doing that.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And I feel like health is another issue too, Chris,
We're buy New Zealanders would quite likely to be a
bit more bipartisanlection, so we're not always going to have
a challenge on policy there.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, the challenge with health is fundamentally going to be
about money. You know that the national government want has
been less money on health than we think is required
to actually deliver the healthcare that New Zealanders want, and
so that is going to be always be a bit
more of a political issue because if we want better healthcare,
fundamentally we have to be willing to pay for it.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think one of the things that concerns me is
we need an opposition that's working and it's ready to
hit the ground running if they become the government. And
we're sort of seeing what's taken place this week with
this education portfolio and the spokesperson and things, and you're
going to ask the question as to whether the labor
is putting the effort in to be ready to go.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Ultimately, what I don't want to do is go to
the next election promising people are reheated what we promised
last time. So we're taking our time to actually work
up some new ideas and some new thinking on the
challenges facing the country. So we can't just show up
and say, look, you got it wrong last time. We
have to accept the voters made their decision last time.
They didn't vote for us, and so what we offer
(04:15):
next time is going to have to be different.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So the caucus did meet on Friday, You had an
all day planning meeting on strategy and policy. How close
aren't we to finding out what the Slabor Caucus has
to offer?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
As I also said on Friday when we met, you know,
some of the big policy items will be next year,
because it's very hard for an opposition to release big
policy when you've still got a whole year and a
half to run before the next election, because a lot
can change in that time. You know, the government's still
got a whole nother budget to deliver, and the last
thing that I want to do is make promises that
I then have to turn around next year and say, well,
(04:47):
we're actually going to have to change that now. Christopher
Luxan ned to do that. If you remember when he
first became leader, his first policy announcement was that Labour
should give a whole lot more subsidies to businesses to
help them through COVID nineteen. Now, of course the government
is saying we spent too much money on those things.
The National Party is saying we spent too much money
on those things. But the so I became leader, Christopher
Luxem was aging and we needed to spend more. And
(05:10):
I don't want to find myself in the position of
having to go back on things that I have said.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And look, typically we do get policy closer to the election.
That's that is generally how it works. But I suppose,
you know, we're going to want to know a little
bit more about the direction that you're going to want
to go in, and it also helps make you be
a little bit more visible and we've got an idea
of what you're working towards. So how does that timeline
look when you look ahead to next year's election.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, there'll be a few policies this year that I've
said right from the start of the year that our
priority areas are you know, jobs, health homes, re election
on the cost of living. So those are effectively the
four priority for policy areas that we want to see
more action on. And you'll see more detail of that,
but that is effectively my policy, your jobs, health, homes
(06:00):
and re election on the cost of living and you'll
see details of that next year, and there will be
a few announcements before the end of this year.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, so we've got Chloe's wallbrick. She spoke to our
New Zealand Held journalist Jamie Ensaw and she believes that
the Greens are basically leading the opposition. Madama hinted did
the same thing. And who speak to their AGM yesterday?
Do you think you are doing enough in opposition? Are
you visible enough?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well? Love, I'm far more interested frankly in the government
taking the country backwards and at the speed at which
they are then arguing with the Greens. I mean, of
course they are had theyre going to show up and say, oh,
we're just a junior version of Labor, are they. I
mean they're going to want to differentiate themselves. That's what
political parties do in election campaigns. But you know, I
think we need some fresh thinking. I think we can't
(06:44):
just reheat things that Labor and the Greens were doing
when we're in government last time. We've actually got to
have some new ideas.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Where do you think your new ideas are going to
come from? What sort of areas.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Where you'll see quite a lot in the economy area.
I think we do need some fresh thinking on the economy.
We need to make sure that we're investing in productive
businesses and not just making our money as a country
by buying and selling houses from one another, which tends
to have been the focus for the last thirty years
or so. And look where that's led us. That hasn't
led us forward. We need to be investing in productive businesses.
(07:19):
We need to be backing our innovative new businesses to
do better. We need to make sure we're identifying what
we're good at as a country and what the strategic
opportunity is ahead for us as a country. We're not
going to be great at everything, but we can be
absolutely fantastic at a range of things where we've got
some key areas of strength. So you'll hear quite a
lot from us about that over the next year. You're
(07:41):
looking at growth, Chris, Yeah, but it's growth that benefits everybody.
I'm not just interested in economic growth that gets captured
by a few wealthy people. I want to make sure
that the people who go out and work hard for
a living actually benefit from that economic growth.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And we'll be expecting an announcement to around tax.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah, there'll be an announcement around tax. But tax is
not the be all and end all you. Tax is
only one part of the picture. We've actually got to
look at the border picture of how do we make
sure that New Zealanders who go out work hard every
day can actually get ahead and create a better life
for themselves. And I think there's a lot of key
with out there working really hard, flogging their guts out
at the moment, who feel like they're going backwards all
(08:21):
of the time. That is what motivates me to get
out of bed every morning. I think we can do better.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Where do you find these fresh ideas from? Because a
lot of the time we were often presented with fresh
ideas and policies and things, but they might be a
rehash of something we've done before, or you know, like it.
It is hard to find a very original, unique, fresh
idea in politics.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I think we can look here in New Zealand, and
we can look overseas. I mean, I've spent quite a
bit of time looking at overseas examples. None of them
are directly translateable to New Zealand. You sort of cherry
pick a little bit here and there and mix it
in with some local knowledge, and that I think is
how you get some fresh thinking. So I've spent a
bit of time looking at countries like Denmark and Ireland.
If you go back thirty forty years, New Zealand had
(09:06):
standard of living that was comparable, if not slightly better
than those countries, and they've leap frogged ahead of us
by quite a wide margin now. So looking at what
they've done over the last thirty or forty years has
been useful. And we're also just going out and speaking
to people here in New Zealand, you know, what are
the things that are stopping us boosting ahead as a country,
and Kiwis have actually got a lot of good ideas
(09:28):
about what we can do about that.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well, it's good to hear that engagement is taking place
because that was something that you were criticized a little
bit for during that COVID period, a lack of engagement
with New Zealanders and things.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, and I certainly think that there was a fair criticism.
You know, in a state of emergency like we had
with COVID, it's very hard to make decisions quickly whilst
being collaborative. So I certainly felt that by the end
of our time in government we needed to be doing
a lot more to engage with those who had really
good ideas about how we could move the country forward.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You're talking about the economy with the tax system being productive,
innovative and things like that. It basically implying that you're
going to be able to, you know, run this economy.
How do you convince us that you are going to
be better at reviving the economy when just in the
last week the Treasury is said that your government overspent
(10:18):
during COVID. You've got that sixty six billion dollar elephants
sitting in the corner.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Well, I think one of the lessons from the National
Party is, you know, they took the view that, you know,
oh we'll just run everything better and that we don't
need to make any major changes other than just cutting
government spending. We just cut government spending and we just
bet you know, they went out there and said, oh,
we just we're just better at running things. I think
keepers can see that that's not the case. They're not
better at running things. If anything, things are getting a
lot lot worse under this government. We are going to
(10:46):
need to have some things that are going to really
shift the dial forward New Zealand. We can't just keep
doing the same thing we've been doing for the last
thirty or forty years and expect that we're going to
get a different outcome. But you're not. You know, it's
not an overnight process to identify what we need to
do differently. And I would rather take the time make
sure that what I put out there the next election
(11:07):
of stuff that we know is actually going to work,
because I think Keys have had enough of reheated policies
that ultimately don't disappoint. I think Keys have had enough
of being disappointed by politicians. They want to see some
real solutions that that you know, we've done our homework
on and that we're now are going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Chris, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Good it's got great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, nice to talk to you too.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
As I just mentioned on Friday we learned that the
opposition ignored government's request to meet over major education reforms.
Then yesterday Green Party leader Chloe Warbrock claims the Greens
are basically leading the opposition, So what are Labor up
to do? They believe that they are doing a good job,
and Opposition Labor leader Chris Hopkins joins me. Now, good morning, Chris,
thank you for your time on a Sunday morning.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
No worries, good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Should will I Jene Prime have met with the government
over education.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Reforms, yes, and I made that clear this week as well.
I think Willow was texted by your Costenta that I
think the day she got the portfolio, and at the
time she indicated she well. At the time she indicated
to me she wanted to meet with the education sector
presentatives before meeting with the government, but she didn't convey
that to Eric Stanford and she should have done, and
(00:58):
then she should have accepted the invitation to meet. So
I've made that clear. I think Willo's learned a lot
from this particular episode. But I think the keith now
is that we do need cross party collaboration to make
sure that the changes to the NCAA are enduring and
that parents and students can have faith in the national
qualification system that we have as a country. I think
(01:19):
that is the most important thing and I would hate
for that to be lost in any political point scoring
that's gone on in the last week.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Is Labor open to collaboration with the government on important.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Reforms, Absolutely so. If you take Nceea for example, that
this review process actually started when I was Minister of
Education and at that time I invited Niki Kay not
just to meet with me, but to meet with the
people who were conducting the review, to meet with all
of the stakeholders. We got all the stakeholders together into
a big stakeholder forum so they could talk about it,
(01:51):
and Niki Kay was invited to that. In fact, I
think Erica Stamford may have attended some of those meetings
brought along by Nicki Kay, because I think this is
one of those areas that needs to be beyond politics.
And when it comes to replying to letters, of course,
Christopher Luxe and there's a number of letters for me
from me offering bipartisan support on a range of issues
which EAS yet to reply to you. So I sort
(02:13):
of take the current criticism over the last week with
a little bit of a grain of salt.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, So, what areas are you collaborating or all these
sort of cross party discussion happening at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Well, if you look at areas around infrastructure, I think
that's vitally important that we have a more bipartisan approach
to infrastructure because the stop start nature of us sorting
out infrastructure issues is one of the things that has
got us into the pickle that we're in now, and
it's one of the things that push us up the
cost as well. So we need to collaborate on infrastructure.
(02:46):
I think big long term issues like the national qualification
system for our kids at school should be something that
we collaborate quite a lot on. I think issues around
national security we do actually collaborate quite a lot on those.
You don't hear us talking about that much because of
the often the confidential and sensitive nature of that, but
we do collaborate on those issues quite a lot, and
(03:06):
I think that's important we keep doing that.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And I feel like health is another issue too, Chris,
We're buy New Zealanders would quite likely to be a
bit more bipartisanlection, so we're not always going to have
a challenge on policy there.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, the challenge with health is fundamentally going to be
about money. You know that the national government want has
been less money on health than we think is required
to actually deliver the healthcare that New Zealanders want, and
so that is going to be always be a bit
more of a political issue because if we want better healthcare,
fundamentally we have to be willing to pay for it.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think one of the things that concerns me is
we need an opposition that's working and it's ready to
hit the ground running if they become the government. And
we're sort of seeing what's taken place this week with
this education portfolio and the spokesperson and things, and you're
going to ask the question as to whether the labor
is putting the effort in to be ready to go.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Ultimately, what I don't want to do is go to
the next election promising people are reheated what we promised
last time. So we're taking our time to actually work
up some new ideas and some new thinking on the
challenges facing the country. So we can't just show up
and say, look, you got it wrong last time. We
have to accept the voters made their decision last time.
They didn't vote for us, and so what we offer
(04:15):
next time is going to have to be different.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So the caucus did meet on Friday, You had an
all day planning meeting on strategy and policy. How close
aren't we to finding out what the Slabor Caucus has
to offer?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
As I also said on Friday when we met, you know,
some of the big policy items will be next year,
because it's very hard for an opposition to release big
policy when you've still got a whole year and a
half to run before the next election, because a lot
can change in that time. You know, the government's still
got a whole nother budget to deliver, and the last
thing that I want to do is make promises that
I then have to turn around next year and say, well,
(04:47):
we're actually going to have to change that now. Christopher
Luxan ned to do that. If you remember when he
first became leader, his first policy announcement was that Labour
should give a whole lot more subsidies to businesses to
help them through COVID nineteen. Now, of course the government
is saying we spent too much money on those things.
The National Party is saying we spent too much money
on those things. But the so I became leader, Christopher
Luxem was aging and we needed to spend more. And
(05:10):
I don't want to find myself in the position of
having to go back on things that I have said.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And look, typically we do get policy closer to the election.
That's that is generally how it works. But I suppose,
you know, we're going to want to know a little
bit more about the direction that you're going to want
to go in, and it also helps make you be
a little bit more visible and we've got an idea
of what you're working towards. So how does that timeline
look when you look ahead to next year's election.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, there'll be a few policies this year that I've
said right from the start of the year that our
priority areas are you know, jobs, health homes, re election
on the cost of living. So those are effectively the
four priority for policy areas that we want to see
more action on. And you'll see more detail of that,
but that is effectively my policy, your jobs, health, homes
(06:00):
and re election on the cost of living and you'll
see details of that next year, and there will be
a few announcements before the end of this year.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, so we've got Chloe's wallbrick. She spoke to our
New Zealand Held journalist Jamie Ensaw and she believes that
the Greens are basically leading the opposition. Madama hinted did
the same thing. And who speak to their AGM yesterday?
Do you think you are doing enough in opposition? Are
you visible enough?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well? Love, I'm far more interested frankly in the government
taking the country backwards and at the speed at which
they are then arguing with the Greens. I mean, of
course they are had theyre going to show up and say, oh,
we're just a junior version of Labor, are they. I
mean they're going to want to differentiate themselves. That's what
political parties do in election campaigns. But you know, I
think we need some fresh thinking. I think we can't
(06:44):
just reheat things that Labor and the Greens were doing
when we're in government last time. We've actually got to
have some new ideas.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Where do you think your new ideas are going to
come from? What sort of areas.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Where you'll see quite a lot in the economy area.
I think we do need some fresh thinking on the economy.
We need to make sure that we're investing in productive
businesses and not just making our money as a country
by buying and selling houses from one another, which tends
to have been the focus for the last thirty years
or so. And look where that's led us. That hasn't
led us forward. We need to be investing in productive businesses.
(07:19):
We need to be backing our innovative new businesses to
do better. We need to make sure we're identifying what
we're good at as a country and what the strategic
opportunity is ahead for us as a country. We're not
going to be great at everything, but we can be
absolutely fantastic at a range of things where we've got
some key areas of strength. So you'll hear quite a
lot from us about that over the next year. You're
(07:41):
looking at growth, Chris, Yeah, but it's growth that benefits everybody.
I'm not just interested in economic growth that gets captured
by a few wealthy people. I want to make sure
that the people who go out and work hard for
a living actually benefit from that economic growth.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And we'll be expecting an announcement to around tax.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah, there'll be an announcement around tax. But tax is
not the be all and end all you. Tax is
only one part of the picture. We've actually got to
look at the border picture of how do we make
sure that New Zealanders who go out work hard every
day can actually get ahead and create a better life
for themselves. And I think there's a lot of key
with out there working really hard, flogging their guts out
at the moment, who feel like they're going backwards all
(08:21):
of the time. That is what motivates me to get
out of bed every morning. I think we can do better.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Where do you find these fresh ideas from? Because a
lot of the time we were often presented with fresh
ideas and policies and things, but they might be a
rehash of something we've done before, or you know, like it.
It is hard to find a very original, unique, fresh
idea in politics.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
I think we can look here in New Zealand, and
we can look overseas. I mean, I've spent quite a
bit of time looking at overseas examples. None of them
are directly translateable to New Zealand. You sort of cherry
pick a little bit here and there and mix it
in with some local knowledge, and that I think is
how you get some fresh thinking. So I've spent a
bit of time looking at countries like Denmark and Ireland.
If you go back thirty forty years, New Zealand had
(09:06):
standard of living that was comparable, if not slightly better
than those countries, and they've leap frogged ahead of us
by quite a wide margin now. So looking at what
they've done over the last thirty or forty years has
been useful. And we're also just going out and speaking
to people here in New Zealand, you know, what are
the things that are stopping us boosting ahead as a country,
and Kiwis have actually got a lot of good ideas
(09:28):
about what we can do about that.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well, it's good to hear that engagement is taking place
because that was something that you were criticized a little
bit for during that COVID period, a lack of engagement
with New Zealanders and things.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, and I certainly think that there was a fair criticism.
You know, in a state of emergency like we had
with COVID, it's very hard to make decisions quickly whilst
being collaborative. So I certainly felt that by the end
of our time in government we needed to be doing
a lot more to engage with those who had really
good ideas about how we could move the country forward.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
You're talking about the economy with the tax system being productive,
innovative and things like that. It basically implying that you're
going to be able to, you know, run this economy.
How do you convince us that you are going to
be better at reviving the economy when just in the
last week the Treasury is said that your government overspent
(10:18):
during COVID. You've got that sixty six billion dollar elephants
sitting in the corner.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Well, I think one of the lessons from the National
Party is, you know, they took the view that, you know,
oh we'll just run everything better and that we don't
need to make any major changes other than just cutting
government spending. We just cut government spending and we just
bet you know, they went out there and said, oh,
we just we're just better at running things. I think
keepers can see that that's not the case. They're not
better at running things. If anything, things are getting a
lot lot worse under this government. We are going to
(10:46):
need to have some things that are going to really
shift the dial forward New Zealand. We can't just keep
doing the same thing we've been doing for the last
thirty or forty years and expect that we're going to
get a different outcome. But you're not. You know, it's
not an overnight process to identify what we need to
do differently. And I would rather take the time make
sure that what I put out there the next election
(11:07):
of stuff that we know is actually going to work,
because I think Keys have had enough of reheated policies
that ultimately don't disappoint. I think Keys have had enough
of being disappointed by politicians. They want to see some
real solutions that that you know, we've done our homework
on and that we're now are going to work.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Chris, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Good it's got great to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, nice to talk to you too.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!