September 20, 2025 • 13 mins
The Clarke Gayford-produced documentary chronicling the premiership of his wife and former Prime Minister Dame Jacinda Ardern promises an intimate look at the former leader.
Besides interviews and archival footage, it also includes home footage shot by Gayford and is described as a look into both Ardern’s administration and private life
Clarke Gayford says he wanted the documentary to reveal the honest bits of Ardern's tumultuous political life.
"Just trying to put a human face on what it means to be a politician, because the world we live in is getting crazier and spinning faster and faster - and so that was sort of the drive that made me want to pull this all together."
Prime Minister is set to arrive in cinemas on Thursday September 25th.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b as.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Not often we see behind the scenes into the private
lives of world leaders, not with any degree of intimacy anyway.
But after Jacinta Adum became Prime Minister in twenty seventeen,
her then boyfriend Clark Gayford started filming following family moments,
pregnant moments, the hard times, the start of an error
and the end. The unprecedented, unprecedented intimate footage has been
turned into a feature link the documentary. Clark is one
(00:35):
of the cinematographers and producers. It's called Prime Minister. I
have three years to do as much as we can.
But in the back of my mind I thought, how
am I going to do this with a baby.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I just feel sorry for myself listening to that because
I just have no idea what's coming, Absolutely no idea.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
There were two groups on the island, those who were
evacuated and those close to the eruption.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We only have six cases at the moment. This can
only be described as a terrorist attack. Crises make governments
and they break governments. Things went wrong. It was my
job to fix it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Clark Gaiford joins me now from London.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Good morning, good morning, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you so much for your time. Look this documentary.
You've kind of called it a side project for the
last seven years. Are you excited that it is finally
out and about.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yes. It was one of those things where I never
really saw I didn't it certainly didn't have the end
product in mind when I started filming. It was just
kind of a hobby on the side, like a visual
diary that I kept going. And then at the end
of it sat down and thought, I wonder if I've
got enough here to help make a documentary.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
What did make you pick up the camera? Though? There
must have been I mean, you're a storyteller, you must
have gone there is something here.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, it was the first. It was during the MMP
negotiations back in twenty seventeen, and of course with Winston
Peters being in that pivotal seat and not knowing which
way it was going to go, and I found myself
down at Parliament and in the Opposition leader's office where
no media was and I was there for the whole
(02:17):
last day, watching the back and forth and the whispering
and corners and the you know, the speculative things that
were going on. And I looked around and I thought, man,
no one's no one's documenting, there's no one's even taking
a thing. And I didn't. I just thought, man, if
I had a camera, I should I should try and
capture some of this. And because I did film that,
it sort of set it set myself a standard where
I thought, all, if I film that, maybe I should
(02:39):
try and film a little bit more. And I just
sort of every now and then, when it was appropriate,
i'd just pick a camera up and picked moments off.
And that's that's what started it all rolling.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What were you filming on? Because were you quite conscious
of not being obviously recording what was going on?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
If you know what I mean one hundred percent? Well,
because I mean it was shot over such a long
time that I actually managed to upgrade my camera several
times through it. But luckily, look my backgrounds and media,
so I had friends that I shouldered tap the at
the start just to borrow an old HD ten eighty
P small camera, But you did, right. It was whatever
I could get away with. Sometimes it was just pulling
a phone out of my pockets because that was all
(03:17):
like good or I may have just walked past the
press gallery moments beforehand, and the last thing I wanted
to do was field any questions about something that I
didn't have any answers to.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I do like the way you used the word you
know when it was appropriate, I pulled out the camera.
We were you often told it was inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I think there'd be an entire documentary of me being
told to stop filming my partner, and I often felt
like the worst person in the world because it would
be I'd often pick those moments at the end of
the day when there was a quiet chance to capture
a bit of it, and it was sometimes re induced.
It was the last thing that I felt like doing,
(03:58):
and I certainly was the last thing that just Cinda
felt like doing commenting on, you know, a tough day
or something that had happened. But I just felt like
if I just if I just capture a few moments
of this, it'll be something that we might be able
to look back on.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I'm hugely impressed by j just Cinder's lack of vanity,
because if my partner was trying to film me at
the end of the day while I'm in bed trying
to finish somewhere. I would be telling him where to go, right,
But she actually was pretty tolerant of you and your.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Camera, very tolerant, you know, like I was in a
I was in a pretty unique position there. I don't
think anyone else in the world would get away with that,
and yeah, she, I mean a lot of it will.
And again, I think it was because there was no
end we were doing it. There was no you know,
no studio, no pressure. It was just me picking up
(04:46):
a camera that I think helped capture those candid moments
because it wasn't until we sat down at the end.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And I think it is that footage which is what
makes this documentary so unique and so fascinating. It it's
more sophisticated than a home video, but it gives off
that sense of intimacy.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the thing that you know,
we put up on a or I certainly had on
a whiteboard at the start of the process was just
trying to humanize leadership and trying to trying to put
a human face to what it means to be a politician,
because we you know, the world we live in is
getting crazier and spinning faster and faster, and so that
(05:31):
was sort of the drive that made me want to
pull this all together, which was just showing the honest
bits that can, as you say, be you know, not
all glamor and here and makeup all the time. It is.
It is kind of a messy business.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Because this isn't really a political examination of just sen
As time as Prime Minister. It is more of a
personal look at a job that only a handful of
people do get to do. You know, what is it
in particular that you wanted people to know about this job.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I think it's just just touched upon. I mean the job.
Job is all consuming and I think that comes across
I always joked that there were three of us in
the relationship, me her and the cabinet papers, because they
would they would often be strewn across the bed late
into the night, and that was you know, five six
days a week, and just trying to get across a
(06:26):
bit of the fact that it was people in the
room with the best information they had to try and
make the best decisions they could on whatever it was
that was the issue of the day.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And you get that sense the weight of responsibility that
she carried.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, Yeah, it was a pretty It was tough on
all of us, but yeah, particularly through what all of
New Zealand's been through over the last few years, it's
been a roller coaster.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We see that cumulative effect of dealing with some of
the biggest tragedies that New Zealand has faced in recent times,
and we see the toll that it takes on Jacinda
has writing the memoir and putting together this documentary. Has
it allowed her time to sit with it all, which
is kind of an expression that she uses in the documentary.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, to decompress when you see right from the start
of the film that she had no interest in self
examination during her time in office, and I think even
afterwards we both were, you know, looking to just have
a break from it. But the book forced her to
go back into that space, which is which was worked
really well for us in terms of filmmaking, because I
(07:35):
didn't feel like I was being a bullying partner by
trying to make her open it all back up again,
because it was a chance for her to go through
it as well.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
You bravely ask your wife whether the job would have
been easier if she delegated. Was it frustrating for you
watching her take on all that responsibility.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's yeah, like I just I would often just be
gobsmacked at the at the volume of reading for going
to kebinet. But you know, Justinta's superpower is the way
that she she is on top of everything. She's across
it all, and she stores all the detail in her
And I remember asking her if someone could summarize some
(08:19):
of the work that was coming home, and she remember
pulling out a stack of papers and said, each one
of these requires a decision, and that decision, you know,
needs to be made by me. I can't, but I can't,
you know, skip any of this.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I finally, you know chet GPT had kind of developed
the PDS version had been developed a little earlier.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, just give it to me in graph form only exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
At one point in the film, Justsinda also talks about
the impact of the job on her wider family, on
your parents and you know, all the insane rumors that
you had to deal with in things. So what impact
has the last eight years had on you?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, I think I'm still probably not in a complete
position to answer that question. Here am I talking to
you from the other side of the world where I
never thought I'd end up, but has been a sort
of a lovely little moment in time over here. I
could have never imagined how things were going to be
from the moment that she became leader, and it was
(09:17):
it was like a whirlwind going through that, And yeah,
it has been. It's been hard on all, not just us,
but everyone in New Zealand, and I think it was
a pretty tumultuous time with all of the things that
we've all been through that there are a lot of
you know, certainly, I think that what we're going through
is not necessarily unique in terms of some relationships with
(09:38):
friends and family und as strong as they used to be.
And you've found other people in other ways, and it's
it's been a real reshuffling of things.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
How do you feel about the job that your co directors,
Lindsay and Michelle did, especially with the edit.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Great I mean, we always wanted this to be as
honest as possible. I never censored a single frame of
footage that could be shown so to hand it over
and they both they both bring such a unique take
to it. Obviously Michelle with her New Zealand roots and sensibilities,
had that but Lindsey having her impeccable backgrounds through the
(10:17):
likes of American Factory, but she'd also done the Taylor
Swift and the Billie Eilish dockos, And what I really
liked about seeing those was that she would have had
to sit. I knew that she would have had to
sit through hours and hours and hours of boring studio footage.
So I trusted. I trusted that she would shot log
some of the stuff that I'd shot and turn up
(10:39):
turn up what they needed to. And she didn't let
me down.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
How many hours of footage did you give her?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I never added it up again, but it was it
was significant.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I did love them. The fake laundry shot that they
kept in that they just ran a little bit long,
so the Clark couldn't get away with pretending that every
night he grudgingly did the laundry that actually this was
just a little something new shot for the camera called.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
By Yeah, that was one of those little nuggets that
weren't to turn up in a long that I got
to see because it'd sort of present it every few weeks.
I went, someone has done their homework. They've found that
weird obscure GoPro that I tried to set up in
the back of the room because in my mind, I'm like,
do I need a back cut on this?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There is a little scene stealer in this film. How
adorable is that young girl you're raising? She is such
a delight? How does she take after you? And how
does she take after Jasinda?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Oh? Well, I have just to check that Justinda's out
of airshot before I answer this. Definitely parts of us both.
We often debate where the strong world stubborness comes from
which side of the family. But there's no shortage of it.
She's her own person and yeah, just a joy to
be around every week or two. Is it all changes?
(11:59):
It's a changing landscape.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Look, I know that you have been working, but you've
also been a stay at home dad. What has been
the best thing about per.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Oh wow, how do you answer that? And it's a
sixth sentence? I mean just being there for the for
the stages, and that I was just looking back at
some photos of just I think it was only a
year and a half ago when we first got out
of New Zealand, and I'm like, look at the little
face and it's changed. And she used a word tonight.
What was it bizarre? She came and dad, that was
(12:27):
just bizarre. And I don't remember that word being used
in sentences last week, and you know, just watching those
changes firsthand and being up close and watching that as
kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, it's so special, isn't it? Okay, So next project?
Now you've got this one sort of semi rapped up.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
What's next?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, you got a bug?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
There is a great That is a great question. I've
sent out a few emails in the last few while
I'm doing a bit of sniffing around. I would love, obviously,
you know, I can't not miss being in the ocean,
having that as a background. I'd love to find a
way to get back there. But yeah, and I'm not
sure opened to suggest you think I should ask chet shebt.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, Please, I'm sure I'm sure that you will come
up with something on your own. Hey, Clak, we really
appreciate your time. Thank you very much for the documentary
and besta lack.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That was Clak Gayford, producer of documentary Prime Minister. It
is in cinemas this Thursday.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday.
Or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News talks'b as.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Not often we see behind the scenes into the private
lives of world leaders, not with any degree of intimacy anyway.
But after Jacinta Adum became Prime Minister in twenty seventeen,
her then boyfriend Clark Gayford started filming following family moments,
pregnant moments, the hard times, the start of an error
and the end. The unprecedented, unprecedented intimate footage has been
turned into a feature link the documentary. Clark is one
(00:35):
of the cinematographers and producers. It's called Prime Minister. I
have three years to do as much as we can.
But in the back of my mind I thought, how
am I going to do this with a baby.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I just feel sorry for myself listening to that because
I just have no idea what's coming, Absolutely no idea.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
There were two groups on the island, those who were
evacuated and those close to the eruption.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
We only have six cases at the moment. This can
only be described as a terrorist attack. Crises make governments
and they break governments. Things went wrong. It was my
job to fix it.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Clark Gaiford joins me now from London.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Good morning, good morning, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you so much for your time. Look this documentary.
You've kind of called it a side project for the
last seven years. Are you excited that it is finally
out and about.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yes. It was one of those things where I never
really saw I didn't it certainly didn't have the end
product in mind when I started filming. It was just
kind of a hobby on the side, like a visual
diary that I kept going. And then at the end
of it sat down and thought, I wonder if I've
got enough here to help make a documentary.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
What did make you pick up the camera? Though? There
must have been I mean, you're a storyteller, you must
have gone there is something here.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, it was the first. It was during the MMP
negotiations back in twenty seventeen, and of course with Winston
Peters being in that pivotal seat and not knowing which
way it was going to go, and I found myself
down at Parliament and in the Opposition leader's office where
no media was and I was there for the whole
(02:17):
last day, watching the back and forth and the whispering
and corners and the you know, the speculative things that
were going on. And I looked around and I thought, man,
no one's no one's documenting, there's no one's even taking
a thing. And I didn't. I just thought, man, if
I had a camera, I should I should try and
capture some of this. And because I did film that,
it sort of set it set myself a standard where
I thought, all, if I film that, maybe I should
(02:39):
try and film a little bit more. And I just
sort of every now and then, when it was appropriate,
i'd just pick a camera up and picked moments off.
And that's that's what started it all rolling.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What were you filming on? Because were you quite conscious
of not being obviously recording what was going on?
Speaker 3 (02:54):
If you know what I mean one hundred percent? Well,
because I mean it was shot over such a long
time that I actually managed to upgrade my camera several
times through it. But luckily, look my backgrounds and media,
so I had friends that I shouldered tap the at
the start just to borrow an old HD ten eighty
P small camera, But you did, right. It was whatever
I could get away with. Sometimes it was just pulling
a phone out of my pockets because that was all
(03:17):
like good or I may have just walked past the
press gallery moments beforehand, and the last thing I wanted
to do was field any questions about something that I
didn't have any answers to.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I do like the way you used the word you
know when it was appropriate, I pulled out the camera.
We were you often told it was inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I think there'd be an entire documentary of me being
told to stop filming my partner, and I often felt
like the worst person in the world because it would
be I'd often pick those moments at the end of
the day when there was a quiet chance to capture
a bit of it, and it was sometimes re induced.
It was the last thing that I felt like doing,
(03:58):
and I certainly was the last thing that just Cinda
felt like doing commenting on, you know, a tough day
or something that had happened. But I just felt like
if I just if I just capture a few moments
of this, it'll be something that we might be able
to look back on.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I'm hugely impressed by j just Cinder's lack of vanity,
because if my partner was trying to film me at
the end of the day while I'm in bed trying
to finish somewhere. I would be telling him where to go, right,
But she actually was pretty tolerant of you and your.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Camera, very tolerant, you know, like I was in a
I was in a pretty unique position there. I don't
think anyone else in the world would get away with that,
and yeah, she, I mean a lot of it will.
And again, I think it was because there was no
end we were doing it. There was no you know,
no studio, no pressure. It was just me picking up
(04:46):
a camera that I think helped capture those candid moments
because it wasn't until we sat down at the end.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And I think it is that footage which is what
makes this documentary so unique and so fascinating. It it's
more sophisticated than a home video, but it gives off
that sense of intimacy.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the thing that you know,
we put up on a or I certainly had on
a whiteboard at the start of the process was just
trying to humanize leadership and trying to trying to put
a human face to what it means to be a politician,
because we you know, the world we live in is
getting crazier and spinning faster and faster, and so that
(05:31):
was sort of the drive that made me want to
pull this all together, which was just showing the honest
bits that can, as you say, be you know, not
all glamor and here and makeup all the time. It is.
It is kind of a messy business.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Because this isn't really a political examination of just sen
As time as Prime Minister. It is more of a
personal look at a job that only a handful of
people do get to do. You know, what is it
in particular that you wanted people to know about this job.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I think it's just just touched upon. I mean the job.
Job is all consuming and I think that comes across
I always joked that there were three of us in
the relationship, me her and the cabinet papers, because they
would they would often be strewn across the bed late
into the night, and that was you know, five six
days a week, and just trying to get across a
(06:26):
bit of the fact that it was people in the
room with the best information they had to try and
make the best decisions they could on whatever it was
that was the issue of the day.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And you get that sense the weight of responsibility that
she carried.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, Yeah, it was a pretty It was tough on
all of us, but yeah, particularly through what all of
New Zealand's been through over the last few years, it's
been a roller coaster.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
We see that cumulative effect of dealing with some of
the biggest tragedies that New Zealand has faced in recent times,
and we see the toll that it takes on Jacinda
has writing the memoir and putting together this documentary. Has
it allowed her time to sit with it all, which
is kind of an expression that she uses in the documentary.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, to decompress when you see right from the start
of the film that she had no interest in self
examination during her time in office, and I think even
afterwards we both were, you know, looking to just have
a break from it. But the book forced her to
go back into that space, which is which was worked
really well for us in terms of filmmaking, because I
(07:35):
didn't feel like I was being a bullying partner by
trying to make her open it all back up again,
because it was a chance for her to go through
it as well.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
You bravely ask your wife whether the job would have
been easier if she delegated. Was it frustrating for you
watching her take on all that responsibility.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's yeah, like I just I would often just be
gobsmacked at the at the volume of reading for going
to kebinet. But you know, Justinta's superpower is the way
that she she is on top of everything. She's across
it all, and she stores all the detail in her
And I remember asking her if someone could summarize some
(08:19):
of the work that was coming home, and she remember
pulling out a stack of papers and said, each one
of these requires a decision, and that decision, you know,
needs to be made by me. I can't, but I can't,
you know, skip any of this.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I finally, you know chet GPT had kind of developed
the PDS version had been developed a little earlier.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, just give it to me in graph form only exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
At one point in the film, Justsinda also talks about
the impact of the job on her wider family, on
your parents and you know, all the insane rumors that
you had to deal with in things. So what impact
has the last eight years had on you?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, I think I'm still probably not in a complete
position to answer that question. Here am I talking to
you from the other side of the world where I
never thought I'd end up, but has been a sort
of a lovely little moment in time over here. I
could have never imagined how things were going to be
from the moment that she became leader, and it was
(09:17):
it was like a whirlwind going through that, And yeah,
it has been. It's been hard on all, not just us,
but everyone in New Zealand, and I think it was
a pretty tumultuous time with all of the things that
we've all been through that there are a lot of
you know, certainly, I think that what we're going through
is not necessarily unique in terms of some relationships with
(09:38):
friends and family und as strong as they used to be.
And you've found other people in other ways, and it's
it's been a real reshuffling of things.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
How do you feel about the job that your co directors,
Lindsay and Michelle did, especially with the edit.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Great I mean, we always wanted this to be as
honest as possible. I never censored a single frame of
footage that could be shown so to hand it over
and they both they both bring such a unique take
to it. Obviously Michelle with her New Zealand roots and sensibilities,
had that but Lindsey having her impeccable backgrounds through the
(10:17):
likes of American Factory, but she'd also done the Taylor
Swift and the Billie Eilish dockos, And what I really
liked about seeing those was that she would have had
to sit. I knew that she would have had to
sit through hours and hours and hours of boring studio footage.
So I trusted. I trusted that she would shot log
some of the stuff that I'd shot and turn up
(10:39):
turn up what they needed to. And she didn't let
me down.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
How many hours of footage did you give her?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I never added it up again, but it was it
was significant.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I did love them. The fake laundry shot that they
kept in that they just ran a little bit long,
so the Clark couldn't get away with pretending that every
night he grudgingly did the laundry that actually this was
just a little something new shot for the camera called.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
By Yeah, that was one of those little nuggets that
weren't to turn up in a long that I got
to see because it'd sort of present it every few weeks.
I went, someone has done their homework. They've found that
weird obscure GoPro that I tried to set up in
the back of the room because in my mind, I'm like,
do I need a back cut on this?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
There is a little scene stealer in this film. How
adorable is that young girl you're raising? She is such
a delight? How does she take after you? And how
does she take after Jasinda?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Oh? Well, I have just to check that Justinda's out
of airshot before I answer this. Definitely parts of us both.
We often debate where the strong world stubborness comes from
which side of the family. But there's no shortage of it.
She's her own person and yeah, just a joy to
be around every week or two. Is it all changes?
(11:59):
It's a changing landscape.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Look, I know that you have been working, but you've
also been a stay at home dad. What has been
the best thing about per.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Oh wow, how do you answer that? And it's a
sixth sentence? I mean just being there for the for
the stages, and that I was just looking back at
some photos of just I think it was only a
year and a half ago when we first got out
of New Zealand, and I'm like, look at the little
face and it's changed. And she used a word tonight.
What was it bizarre? She came and dad, that was
(12:27):
just bizarre. And I don't remember that word being used
in sentences last week, and you know, just watching those
changes firsthand and being up close and watching that as
kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, it's so special, isn't it? Okay, So next project?
Now you've got this one sort of semi rapped up.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
What's next?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yes, you got a bug?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
There is a great That is a great question. I've
sent out a few emails in the last few while
I'm doing a bit of sniffing around. I would love, obviously,
you know, I can't not miss being in the ocean,
having that as a background. I'd love to find a
way to get back there. But yeah, and I'm not
sure opened to suggest you think I should ask chet shebt.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, Please, I'm sure I'm sure that you will come
up with something on your own. Hey, Clak, we really
appreciate your time. Thank you very much for the documentary
and besta lack.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That was Clak Gayford, producer of documentary Prime Minister. It
is in cinemas this Thursday.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday.
Or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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