November 22, 2025 • 7 mins
Captain Scott Barrett is praising the fresh faces for injecting some enthusiasm into the All Blacks for the season-ending 52-26 win over Wales in Cardiff.
Barrett says the 12 changes to the starting line-up ensured there was no baggage carried over from the England loss.
Newstalk ZB rugby commentator Elliott Smith says the All Blacks can head home happy for the end of the year, but there's still some lingering questions about the team.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The All Blacks have finished twenty twenty five of the
convincing fifty two to twenty six win over Wales in Cardiff.
Here's captain Scott Barrett post match, meant.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Proud of the group to finish you know, our tour
on a positive like that. You know, we wanted to
play you know, eighty minutes to rugby that we could
be proud of and I think we did that for
the most part.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Tonight, zippy head rugby commentator Elliot Smith joins me now
from Wales. Good morning Elliott, Good morning Francesca. So Wales
did their best, asked a few questions of the All
Blacks at times, but it was a decisive win for
the Abs and a good end of the tour.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yes, yeah, I think they'll be relatively happy with that.
The All Blacks. It certainly wasn't all pretty. The edge
defense was left wanting at times. They probably won't be
overly happy with the fact that they lead in four
tries to Wales, who had struggled to get their attack
going for a couple of years now, including a hat
trick to one of the wells wingers, Tom Rodgers. But
(01:08):
by and large it was a solid enough All Blacks performance.
And if this was going to be a performance, if
they had won last week in England to clinch the
Grand Slam, then you'd be pretty happy with it. I
think there'll be a few rocks under the beach tails
as the All Blacks repair to head home. It was
solid enough, but it wasn't as good as the All
Blacks know they can be. Having said that, they still
(01:29):
put fifty on what was a pretty happy as well
side by the end of it, they were strong as
you said, for fifty to fifty five minutes, but once
they weren't out of the contests, they were really out
of the contest. So job done for the All Blacks.
They can head home ten to three record for the year,
but still prittyant questions about this.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Team quite a different team from the other teams that
have taken the field over the last month. Was this
a good move for Robson?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I think you had to do it. Needed to freshen
things up in a way for a lot of these
players that had been holding tackle bags for three weeks,
and that doesn't guarantee you an All Blacks game by
stretch of the imagination. But given they came back from
London with a defeat, there was some spark that was needed.
And as I said, these players, you know, worthy of opportunities.
(02:16):
He did select them in the squad and you need
to see a bit more about them with an eye
to twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven. Rico Joanne
hasn't had many opportunities recently. I thought he was solid
in midfield. We saw the likes of Anton and at
Brown as well. Ruben Love, who's been waiting on the sidelines,
just desperate for an appearance ever since his first start
(02:36):
back in Hamilton in July, getting his second start now,
he took his opportunities, went off with an ankle injury
late in the game. But I think bite and large,
you know, for the All Blacks, they would have learned
a little bit more about some of these players heading
into twenty twenty six. Ruben Love, I thought Gavin plenty
to think about, but it was also opportunity to get
some of these players on the park and develop combinations.
(02:57):
Scott Robertson, you know, he has talked a lot about
the four four four combinations for the World Cup in
twenty seven, four deep in every position. To win a
fourth World Cup for the All Blacks, you've got to
give players opportunities and that's what they did, and by
and large those players took them tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And look you mentioned the World Cup there, we're two
years out from the World Cup. I mean this is
the time to try new talent and to find that
new talent. And we've seen stars like Babian Holland and
there were a car to step up. But at times
selections have been a bit hit and miss. Do you
think development is on track?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
No?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I think there needs to be probably more opportunities given
to these young players. Having said that, there hasn't been
a great deal of games where you would be comfortable
enough to give some of these players opportunities. And it's
been a fine and delicate balancing act. And I don't
know that Scott Robinson's got it right every time, but
he hasn't also had games where you're expected to win
and win well through his tenure. He had Japan last year.
(03:52):
That's been the only real team Tier two team that
he's had in his entire coaching with the All Blacks.
He hasn't had a Fiji or some more or Tonga
or United States or anything like that to be able
to develop players and give new players opportunities, so they've
had to learn on the job. They've I think had
nineteen All Blacks since Scott Robertson took over. Some of
(04:14):
those have been great successes. You think of Wallace to
Teiti has done really well, Fabian Holans winning the World
Rugby Breakthrough Player of the Year this year. Those players
who have quickly assumed players spots and the you know,
the regular starting lineup for the All Blacks. But there's
also been players like Ruben Love that have really had
to wait for opportunities and they haven't probably come quick
enough so because a delicate balancing act. But I think
(04:37):
at the midway point from the World Cup, they probably
would have liked to be a little bit further ahead
with some of that depth than are at the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Elliott, how would you rate to this tour.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I think it's been a failure for the All Blacks
that they've talked a lot about coming up and Grand
Slam and ultimately that's not what they leave with. And
when you talk about that and you know, underline it
as something you want to get out of it. You're
going to be judged against that, and judge they are
because they didn't win it and good enough against England
last week, and that showed that they've got a bit
(05:09):
of work to do to catch up with the best
teams in the world. Yes, they ranked second on the
world rankings, but the All Blacks are expected to be
at number one, and clearly at the moment the gap
to South Africa is big and you could probably put
England in there and maybe even France as well. So
I think the All Blacks will look back at this
tour as a missed opportunity. Perhaps you know that you
(05:31):
look at it in isolation, that England game just stands
out like a saw point. They did well to rally
in Chicago against Ireland and blew them off the park
in the last twenty minutes. They had to really rally
late against Scotland and they won convincingly this afternoon of
this evening here in Cardiff. But ultimately it's that England
loss that will define this tour and not the other
(05:53):
three games. And that's the territory you go with the
All Blacks, is that You're defined more so by your losses,
especially you know in non tournament years, than you are
your wins. And that's where Scott Robertson sits. You know,
he's won ten games this year, but it's the three
losses that we're talking about in Argentina, in South Africa
against South Africa rather and then again last week in London.
(06:14):
So this is the world the All Blacks live in,
and you know there's a lot of improvements still to
come and needed from this team, you know, two years
out from a World Cup.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
My next question was going to be, you know, are
you feeling a bit more positive if you look at
the All Blacks year in general? But I'm anticipating the
answer is not necessarily no.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
And look, this is the tough thing about international coaching is,
as I said, you probably define more by your losses
than your wins. And that's the territory that comes with
the job and you know everyone, and it's different to
Super rugby, where in Super Rugby, if you win the
title at the end of the season, no one remembers
what happens in rounds five, six and seven. But for
(06:55):
an All Blacks coach, you're you know, you're judged on
every game from minute one as they were in need
in this year to the final minute of the season
here at Principality Stadium in Cardiff, and those losses do
mean a lot and there is you know, a certain
judgment that comes with that. So I think with the
All Blacks, you know, being in the position they are,
twenty twenty seven looks like a long way away in
(07:17):
terms of winning a World Cup. There will need to
be big strides to come before the year. They might
need to look at some of the division of labor
or that the coaching and they're set up. Jason Hollends
obviously left now at the conclusion of this tour. So
this is an opportunity midway through the World Cup cycle
to really take stock and go what's going to get
the All Blacks of the World Cup? Because at the
moment they're off the pace, But the question is by
(07:39):
how much compared to the likes of South Africa.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Elliott Smith, thank you so much for your time and
travel home safe.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Thanks Francesca.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news talks they'd be from nine am Sunday
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The All Blacks have finished twenty twenty five of the
convincing fifty two to twenty six win over Wales in Cardiff.
Here's captain Scott Barrett post match, meant.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Proud of the group to finish you know, our tour
on a positive like that. You know, we wanted to
play you know, eighty minutes to rugby that we could
be proud of and I think we did that for
the most part.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Tonight, zippy head rugby commentator Elliot Smith joins me now
from Wales. Good morning Elliott, Good morning Francesca. So Wales
did their best, asked a few questions of the All
Blacks at times, but it was a decisive win for
the Abs and a good end of the tour.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yes, yeah, I think they'll be relatively happy with that.
The All Blacks. It certainly wasn't all pretty. The edge
defense was left wanting at times. They probably won't be
overly happy with the fact that they lead in four
tries to Wales, who had struggled to get their attack
going for a couple of years now, including a hat
trick to one of the wells wingers, Tom Rodgers. But
(01:08):
by and large it was a solid enough All Blacks performance.
And if this was going to be a performance, if
they had won last week in England to clinch the
Grand Slam, then you'd be pretty happy with it. I
think there'll be a few rocks under the beach tails
as the All Blacks repair to head home. It was
solid enough, but it wasn't as good as the All
Blacks know they can be. Having said that, they still
(01:29):
put fifty on what was a pretty happy as well
side by the end of it, they were strong as
you said, for fifty to fifty five minutes, but once
they weren't out of the contests, they were really out
of the contest. So job done for the All Blacks.
They can head home ten to three record for the year,
but still prittyant questions about this.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Team quite a different team from the other teams that
have taken the field over the last month. Was this
a good move for Robson?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I think you had to do it. Needed to freshen
things up in a way for a lot of these
players that had been holding tackle bags for three weeks,
and that doesn't guarantee you an All Blacks game by
stretch of the imagination. But given they came back from
London with a defeat, there was some spark that was needed.
And as I said, these players, you know, worthy of opportunities.
(02:16):
He did select them in the squad and you need
to see a bit more about them with an eye
to twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven. Rico Joanne
hasn't had many opportunities recently. I thought he was solid
in midfield. We saw the likes of Anton and at
Brown as well. Ruben Love, who's been waiting on the sidelines,
just desperate for an appearance ever since his first start
(02:36):
back in Hamilton in July, getting his second start now,
he took his opportunities, went off with an ankle injury
late in the game. But I think bite and large,
you know, for the All Blacks, they would have learned
a little bit more about some of these players heading
into twenty twenty six. Ruben Love, I thought Gavin plenty
to think about, but it was also opportunity to get
some of these players on the park and develop combinations.
(02:57):
Scott Robertson, you know, he has talked a lot about
the four four four combinations for the World Cup in
twenty seven, four deep in every position. To win a
fourth World Cup for the All Blacks, you've got to
give players opportunities and that's what they did, and by
and large those players took them tonight.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And look you mentioned the World Cup there, we're two
years out from the World Cup. I mean this is
the time to try new talent and to find that
new talent. And we've seen stars like Babian Holland and
there were a car to step up. But at times
selections have been a bit hit and miss. Do you
think development is on track?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
No?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I think there needs to be probably more opportunities given
to these young players. Having said that, there hasn't been
a great deal of games where you would be comfortable
enough to give some of these players opportunities. And it's
been a fine and delicate balancing act. And I don't
know that Scott Robinson's got it right every time, but
he hasn't also had games where you're expected to win
and win well through his tenure. He had Japan last year.
(03:52):
That's been the only real team Tier two team that
he's had in his entire coaching with the All Blacks.
He hasn't had a Fiji or some more or Tonga
or United States or anything like that to be able
to develop players and give new players opportunities, so they've
had to learn on the job. They've I think had
nineteen All Blacks since Scott Robertson took over. Some of
(04:14):
those have been great successes. You think of Wallace to
Teiti has done really well, Fabian Holans winning the World
Rugby Breakthrough Player of the Year this year. Those players
who have quickly assumed players spots and the you know,
the regular starting lineup for the All Blacks. But there's
also been players like Ruben Love that have really had
to wait for opportunities and they haven't probably come quick
enough so because a delicate balancing act. But I think
(04:37):
at the midway point from the World Cup, they probably
would have liked to be a little bit further ahead
with some of that depth than are at the moment.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Elliott, how would you rate to this tour.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I think it's been a failure for the All Blacks
that they've talked a lot about coming up and Grand
Slam and ultimately that's not what they leave with. And
when you talk about that and you know, underline it
as something you want to get out of it. You're
going to be judged against that, and judge they are
because they didn't win it and good enough against England
last week, and that showed that they've got a bit
(05:09):
of work to do to catch up with the best
teams in the world. Yes, they ranked second on the
world rankings, but the All Blacks are expected to be
at number one, and clearly at the moment the gap
to South Africa is big and you could probably put
England in there and maybe even France as well. So
I think the All Blacks will look back at this
tour as a missed opportunity. Perhaps you know that you
(05:31):
look at it in isolation, that England game just stands
out like a saw point. They did well to rally
in Chicago against Ireland and blew them off the park
in the last twenty minutes. They had to really rally
late against Scotland and they won convincingly this afternoon of
this evening here in Cardiff. But ultimately it's that England
loss that will define this tour and not the other
(05:53):
three games. And that's the territory you go with the
All Blacks, is that You're defined more so by your losses,
especially you know in non tournament years, than you are
your wins. And that's where Scott Robertson sits. You know,
he's won ten games this year, but it's the three
losses that we're talking about in Argentina, in South Africa
against South Africa rather and then again last week in London.
(06:14):
So this is the world the All Blacks live in,
and you know there's a lot of improvements still to
come and needed from this team, you know, two years
out from a World Cup.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
My next question was going to be, you know, are
you feeling a bit more positive if you look at
the All Blacks year in general? But I'm anticipating the
answer is not necessarily no.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
And look, this is the tough thing about international coaching is,
as I said, you probably define more by your losses
than your wins. And that's the territory that comes with
the job and you know everyone, and it's different to
Super rugby, where in Super Rugby, if you win the
title at the end of the season, no one remembers
what happens in rounds five, six and seven. But for
(06:55):
an All Blacks coach, you're you know, you're judged on
every game from minute one as they were in need
in this year to the final minute of the season
here at Principality Stadium in Cardiff, and those losses do
mean a lot and there is you know, a certain
judgment that comes with that. So I think with the
All Blacks, you know, being in the position they are,
twenty twenty seven looks like a long way away in
(07:17):
terms of winning a World Cup. There will need to
be big strides to come before the year. They might
need to look at some of the division of labor
or that the coaching and they're set up. Jason Hollends
obviously left now at the conclusion of this tour. So
this is an opportunity midway through the World Cup cycle
to really take stock and go what's going to get
the All Blacks of the World Cup? Because at the
moment they're off the pace, But the question is by
(07:39):
how much compared to the likes of South Africa.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Elliott Smith, thank you so much for your time and
travel home safe.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Thanks Francesca.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news talks they'd be from nine am Sunday
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
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