October 15, 2025 • 18 mins
In August 2022, former Prime Minister Jim Bolger joined Newstalk ZB's Francesca Rudkin on The Sunday Session to launch his new book 'Fridays with Jim'. Listen to the chat above and read more his interview below.
Jim Bolger entered the New Zealand political scene in 1972.
A self-taught son of Irish Immigrants, the King Country farmer lead the National party to victory in 1990 and became the 35th Prime Minister of New Zealand.
Then came three-terms as head of Government, a business leader and New Zealand ambassador to the United States.
Jim Bolger is a familiar public face, but a couple of years ago, it occurred to journalist and author David Cohen that we didn’t know that much about Jim Bolger the man.
There came about Fridays with Jim, a book based on conversations between the pair about our country.
In it, he speaks about his childhood and love for 'living on the land'.
Bolger told Francesca Rudkin it's something that's driven his view on climate change which he says New Zealand is wonderful at talking about, but not doing anything about it.
"You know, we will get a vaccine to control coronavirus, but there is no vaccine to control climate change."
He also says there needs to be some radical rethinking when it comes to New Zealand's economy.
Bolger says one thing that needs to be dealt with is raising the retirement age. He says his Government lifted the age to 65 because they couldn't afford to give retirement income at 60.
He says it's a challenge facing this Government too.
"We have to address the issue, it won't go away.
"The number of people in the aged 65 bracket is going to double in the next 20 years."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks edb Now.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Jim Bolger entered the New Zealand political scene in nineteen
seventy two. A son of Irish immigrants, Jim leaf school
at fifteen to become a farmer, and then went on
to lead the National Party to victory in nineteen ninety
and become the thirty fifth Prime Minister of New Zealand.
Then came three terms as head of government, a business
leader and New Zealand Ambassador to the United States. Jim
Bolger is a familiar public face, but a couple of
(00:34):
years ago it occurred to journalists and author David Cohen
that we didn't know that much about Jim Bolger. The Man.
Then came about Fridays with Jim, a book based on
conversations between the pair about our country, where it's been,
and where it's going. Jim Bolger joins me now from
his home and why can I good morning, Jim.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning? How did you morning? And why can I.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh good to hear? How did you enjoy your thirty
hours of conversation with David Cohen?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Will it was interesting which made me think can reflect
on various aspects of my life in the I'm always
prone to do and reflect on various possibilities for the future,
and that is in many ways more interesting. What are
we going to do tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
And we're going to get to that. In his introduction,
David Cohen describes you as a man from an orthodox
party with unorthodox views, a business leader moving in wealthy
circles but from a tough economic background, and an academic
leader who dropped out of school early. How did this
background influence your politics and you as a leader and politician.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Very difficult to say in any detail on that, Francisco,
but clearly you are the product of your background, and
I'm the product of mine, and it gives you a
perspective or a lens which you view issues. And people
who are nowhere near the land become very passionate green people.
But if you lived on the land as I did
(01:56):
all my youth and still relude to some extent, you
have a different relationship with the land or different understanding
of the land. And I bring that through I talk
about you know, we'll get a vaccine to control coronavirus,
but there's no vaccine to control climate change and we're
simply not doing anything worthwhile about it. We do. We're
(02:18):
wonderful a talking about climate issues in New Zealand, but
dominate a policy that we've put in place in recent
esdes we've passed a zero carbonac dear good unanimously in Parliament,
but right else. I guess this is from my background
starting work as a very young child. To get things done,
(02:38):
my approach to life, my approach and politics will do things,
it must spend most of your time talking about them
and waffling around.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Do you think that's because you also learned the rights
in the real world, Jim, You know you had life
experience when you became a politician.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well, absolutely, and I think that's essentral I think the
pattern that's emerging, not only in New Zealand, so of
you go through school, you to a good university, you
get a degree, and then attach yourself to some politicians
office and then move into politics yourself is fraud because
you're putting people in politics to make the rules run
(03:16):
the country who have really no life experiences outside the
hothouse of politics. I don't think that's healthy. I don't
think it gives you good results and leadership.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Is at the heart. Are quite a few of the
conversations that you have with David. What's good leadership to you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Having the clarity of mind to be able to see
it different tomorrow. And because, as I've said to David
more than once, my whole life has been pushing against
the status quo. If the status quo is okay, then
you don't have to change anything. But to make progress,
of course, you have to change, and you have to
therefore contest the status quo on a constant basis, not
(03:54):
once a year or once every three years. You have
to always be looking at how you can change the
focus to get a better end result. And if you
look at the trouble the world is in it COVID nineteen,
of course has created many additional ones, then we have
to look for a different results. But before COVID, I
mean most New Zealanders can't afford a house in New
(04:15):
Zealand today. I mean in my growing up, my youth,
everybody's youth, there was normal that people got their own houses.
We used to be able to keep a family for
much larger families than today on one income. Now you
struggle to do it on too and you still need
welfare support. We have to do some radical rethinking of
economic policy in which I see no political party doing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Would it be fair to say that change requires courage?
Gym and a lot of politicians are thinking about being
re elected as opposed to being courageous.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, change does require courage. The word change is perhaps
the most frightening word in the language for many many people,
not just politicians, but I mean the classic of timidity,
to my mind is we can continue to give universal
benefit retirement benefits at age sixty five when we're going
(05:13):
to double the number of people who are going to
be eligible. Now, neither John Keene or to Senator A
Dern were prepared to face that. I mean, when I
was in government, we lived at the age from sixty
to sixty five because we simply couldn't afford to continue
to give retirement income at age sixty. We have to
address the issue. It won't go away. The number of
(05:35):
people in the age sixty five bracket is going to
double in the next twenty years. Does anybody believe we
can afford to double the superannuation payments? Know? So it
does require courage. It also requires, I think an honesty
that you're honestly looking at the facts in front of
you and making the decisions accordingly. You're not pretending that
(05:59):
they don't exist.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Jim, you mentioned superinnuation, But what other changes do we
desperately need to make? What issues do you think are
important to New Zealand right now that are not being
fronted by politicians.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I think we have to look at the economic model.
If we have an economic model that has people in
full time employment still requiring welfare support to survive, and
there's something wrong with the model. I mean, that's a
simple statement effect pretty complex to make the changes. But
if we're having more and more wealth aggregated by a
(06:32):
handful at the top, I mean the extreme of that.
That letter written by the multi billionaires urging the governments
to tax them more. See the instinctive thing of politicians
today seems to be we're going to continue spending more,
but we're not going to tax more. That's the nonsense.
By definition. So and I mentioned in the book that
(06:56):
most of the money that we've been spending in response
to the COVID nineteen pandemic has been created by the
Reserve Bank in Wellington. It's owed to nobody. Why don't
we look at how we might apply modern monetary theory
and just write most of that off.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I wanted to touch on, sorry, Jim, I wanted to
touch on COVID nineteen with you, because, of course David
mentions in the book that you brought this up long
before he even knew about it. What do you think
of the government's response?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
The response has been very good. A New Zealander's response
has been very good. It's been a united effort by
New Zealanders and I think that's been very very good.
But we can't rest on that. We have to say
what now we've spent in our spending and a committed,
according to yesterday's announcement, to spend much more. We're subsidizing
(07:46):
I don't know how many tens of thousand of employees now,
and that's probably the right thing to do. It is
the right thing to do. But how long can we
continue with the model that requires that? And I don't
see anybody asking these questions much less. No, that's in journalists.
I'm in yourself and truth. What we're going to do
to fundle this? It seems to be a question that's
(08:12):
one step too far for most people to ask well,
we're printing the money. How long can we do that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Can I just go back to you talking about courage
and making changes and things. What accomplishments are you most
proud of? The ones that took courage for you to back?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
The most important was the treaty settlement process. To front
our pass with some honesty and then start to make
the adjustments necessary in the context of today. We can't
roll the clock back to the eighteen sixties or something.
(08:49):
In the context of today, what can we possibly do?
And I was proud to work alongside some very good
colleagues who worked with me to achieve I think, positive results,
and to work with some outstanding MARI leaders to achieve
positive results I think in terms of New Zealand in corporated,
that's the most important thing we have done in recent years.
(09:11):
And it's been very challenging for a lot of people.
I mean, the most normal observation that I received from
the average New Zealander when we started this process, well,
there's no issue. MARI had the same opportunity in New
Zealand as everybody else, So what's all this fuss about?
And they, of course they knew little of the history
(09:34):
because we don't teach it. I mean New Zealand. I
grew up very close to the famous Parija Kappa that
was invaded in eighteen eighty one. The leader's taken away
and put in duneedn caves, the village destroyed, the women
be used. I lived within three or four miles of that,
(09:55):
and I was never taught a single word of it.
Going through school, we hid our history because we were
ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And one of the things you actually mentioned in the book, Jim,
that you were disappointed that you didn't push through was
Terreo and schools.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
If I failed, I tried to get Terran's School teach
all children in primary school at least the first language
of the country. I was told it was impossible, there's
no teachers, et cetera, cetera. C It was just a
blank war from the bureaucracy. This couldn't happen. Now, the
good news is move on thirty or forty years and
(10:30):
we are starting to do much much more in this space,
and I encourage that, Jim.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Look, we've been hearing a lot of final speeches from
MP's talking about how sick the culture is within parliament.
Do you have any sympathy for MP's today. You know,
you had five kids when you first entered parliament, you
went on to have nine. You know, how did you
handle the challenges of family life and your role in parliament.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Had a wonderful wife for a start, and wonderful mother,
and there was a clearly joan to a magnimicent job. Absolutely,
as you say, we had known children and they're all
very successful adults in various parts in the government here
and abroad and around the world in business. But I
(11:19):
think it's overstated now. I don't know. I'm not in
parliament now and it's a bit hard to draw any comparisons.
But I don't see that it is as difficult as
it was in my early days in parliament. You didn't
have any secretarial services in the electorate. You had one
secretary typeis between say three or four members of Parliament.
(11:41):
You wrote to let it back by hand. I wonder
whether or not there's a bit of sort of self
Oh gosh, it's all too hard. I don't see why
it should be harder now than it was when we
were there a few years back, So I'm surprised. But
I'm not in there, so I can't comment, Jim.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What was it like being in Washington during nine to eleven.
This is something else that you touched on in the book.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Extraordinary, unbelievable because Americans grow up from the moment of
birth with the belief that they were a superior group
and they had total, absolute confidence that their nation home
would never be attacked, and then of course it did
in that early morning attack and twin towersand Pentagon and
(12:31):
so forth, and it was unreal to be there. I
was at a meeting in downtown Washington, one of the
famous breakfast meetings they have over there, And at the
end of that, while we're standing around chatting, somebody said,
a plane and hit the twin towers, and that had
happened before a small planes. The plane came was awf worse.
But when I got down to my driver and I said,
(12:54):
and he said to me, no second tower's being hit,
and I said, there's no accident. And it was an
unreal experience. It was so large and so incomprehensible that
people just fly large planes into the twin towers. But
the question that's never been answered is how was that
able to happen that four planes could be commented at
(13:17):
the same time and flown to attack America their own
planes full of American people. I mean, there has never been,
in my view, a clear explanation of how that began,
how that happened, how they were able to do that,
those pilots and their crew to take over those planes
and fly into the Twin Towers and into the Pentagon
(13:39):
and so forth. So it was unreal. And I went
back into Washington, sorry New York a short time after
the attack, and it was a surreal experience walking as
close as you could to where the Twin Towers were,
and there were just a few spit the skeleton steel around.
(13:59):
Frightening period for America, of course, and partecular, but also
for the world.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Jim, how do you think you would have gone living
in Washington under the rule of Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I'd been very agitated. I think the understandswer. I think
the world is not well served by the President of
the United States at the moment. And they've got an
election coming up shortly after ours, and we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And of yes, as you say, we have an election
campaign underway. What do you think of Judith Collins's chances?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Oh, she's got a huge challenge. I mean, the polls
are never perfect, but they're not totally wrong. So she's
got a huge challenge in front of him. I'm sure
she's more than wise enough to know that. But she's
a robust personality and I'm certain that she will put
everything possible into the campaign. But this is a difficult campaign.
(14:53):
It's very similar, as I said, to nineteen eighty seven.
I became leader in eighty six. Roger Douglas was absolutely
the hero of the National Party wealthy groups because they
were making money. So we got to nineteen eighty seven campaign,
my first campaign as leader, and we increased our vote
(15:13):
by nearly ten percent, but brought us no more seats
really because everyone's going to make a fortune under Roger Douglas.
And of course the October eighty seven crash happened a
month after the election and they never recovered. And I
hope that it doesn't do that again this time, because
again we have a personality that everybody likes, entirely different
(15:38):
from Roger Douglas, one has to say in the current
Prime minister, but we have to do more than that.
We have to think about the policies behind the personality,
and they were totally flawed with Roger Douglas and the
crash happened, and we'll see what happens this time.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
What is going to win the election? Do you think then?
What do the parties need to do? Is it really
just get that policy out?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
JOm Well, I'd like to see some policy. I'd like
to see some policy to deal with the economic model
we've got at the debt we have now built up,
which is villains. And I hear some saying, well, well,
we'll just handle that, but I'd like to see how
they plan to handle that, because I've seen no indication
of that at all. I think there was another announcement,
(16:19):
Yes they have another few hundred million to be spent
on wage subsidies, and they may be necessary, but tell
us how are we going to come out of it
at the end of it? And I think we're not
looking at population trends at all, and they are dramatic
in terms not only of superinnovation, but in terms of
society is at large, and that's a big issue. I
(16:40):
think we have to be careful that we don't allow
white racism to emerge, because we know the terrible shootings
and the two mosques in christ church. We're in Australian
white races, but they're in New Zealand as well. That's
not pretend otherwise. And they're part of a sort of
frightened group. They see the world that they knew changing
(17:01):
before the eyes. They see the browning of the world.
They see the old Western domin which is dominated for
a few centuries, being surpassed by others. And they are
sort of withdrawing into I don't know their comfort zone,
all their fearful home. And I'd like us to talk
about these things so they're not sort of hidden under
(17:23):
the rug somewhere. We need to be up front talk
about the changes we're going to have in society. There's
a tendency now to sort of blame everything on China. Well,
China is a huge county, is going to be there forever.
Let's dealdle with these issues.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Jim, it has been a pleasure to talk to you
this morning. Thank you so much for your time. You
can go and enjoy your beautiful day. And why can
I now.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It isn't this beautiful? I promise you come up and
you'll see it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Oh look, it really has been a delight. Thank you
so much and Fridays with Jim By David Cohen as
in bookstores this Thursday.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks edb Now.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Jim Bolger entered the New Zealand political scene in nineteen
seventy two. A son of Irish immigrants, Jim leaf school
at fifteen to become a farmer, and then went on
to lead the National Party to victory in nineteen ninety
and become the thirty fifth Prime Minister of New Zealand.
Then came three terms as head of government, a business
leader and New Zealand Ambassador to the United States. Jim
Bolger is a familiar public face, but a couple of
(00:34):
years ago it occurred to journalists and author David Cohen
that we didn't know that much about Jim Bolger. The Man.
Then came about Fridays with Jim, a book based on
conversations between the pair about our country, where it's been,
and where it's going. Jim Bolger joins me now from
his home and why can I good morning, Jim.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Good morning? How did you morning? And why can I.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh good to hear? How did you enjoy your thirty
hours of conversation with David Cohen?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Will it was interesting which made me think can reflect
on various aspects of my life in the I'm always
prone to do and reflect on various possibilities for the future,
and that is in many ways more interesting. What are
we going to do tomorrow?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
And we're going to get to that. In his introduction,
David Cohen describes you as a man from an orthodox
party with unorthodox views, a business leader moving in wealthy
circles but from a tough economic background, and an academic
leader who dropped out of school early. How did this
background influence your politics and you as a leader and politician.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Very difficult to say in any detail on that, Francisco,
but clearly you are the product of your background, and
I'm the product of mine, and it gives you a
perspective or a lens which you view issues. And people
who are nowhere near the land become very passionate green people.
But if you lived on the land as I did
(01:56):
all my youth and still relude to some extent, you
have a different relationship with the land or different understanding
of the land. And I bring that through I talk
about you know, we'll get a vaccine to control coronavirus,
but there's no vaccine to control climate change and we're
simply not doing anything worthwhile about it. We do. We're
(02:18):
wonderful a talking about climate issues in New Zealand, but
dominate a policy that we've put in place in recent
esdes we've passed a zero carbonac dear good unanimously in Parliament,
but right else. I guess this is from my background
starting work as a very young child. To get things done,
(02:38):
my approach to life, my approach and politics will do things,
it must spend most of your time talking about them
and waffling around.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Do you think that's because you also learned the rights
in the real world, Jim, You know you had life
experience when you became a politician.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Well, absolutely, and I think that's essentral I think the
pattern that's emerging, not only in New Zealand, so of
you go through school, you to a good university, you
get a degree, and then attach yourself to some politicians
office and then move into politics yourself is fraud because
you're putting people in politics to make the rules run
(03:16):
the country who have really no life experiences outside the
hothouse of politics. I don't think that's healthy. I don't
think it gives you good results and leadership.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Is at the heart. Are quite a few of the
conversations that you have with David. What's good leadership to you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Having the clarity of mind to be able to see
it different tomorrow. And because, as I've said to David
more than once, my whole life has been pushing against
the status quo. If the status quo is okay, then
you don't have to change anything. But to make progress,
of course, you have to change, and you have to
therefore contest the status quo on a constant basis, not
(03:54):
once a year or once every three years. You have
to always be looking at how you can change the
focus to get a better end result. And if you
look at the trouble the world is in it COVID nineteen,
of course has created many additional ones, then we have
to look for a different results. But before COVID, I
mean most New Zealanders can't afford a house in New
(04:15):
Zealand today. I mean in my growing up, my youth,
everybody's youth, there was normal that people got their own houses.
We used to be able to keep a family for
much larger families than today on one income. Now you
struggle to do it on too and you still need
welfare support. We have to do some radical rethinking of
economic policy in which I see no political party doing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Would it be fair to say that change requires courage?
Gym and a lot of politicians are thinking about being
re elected as opposed to being courageous.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Well, change does require courage. The word change is perhaps
the most frightening word in the language for many many people,
not just politicians, but I mean the classic of timidity,
to my mind is we can continue to give universal
benefit retirement benefits at age sixty five when we're going
(05:13):
to double the number of people who are going to
be eligible. Now, neither John Keene or to Senator A
Dern were prepared to face that. I mean, when I
was in government, we lived at the age from sixty
to sixty five because we simply couldn't afford to continue
to give retirement income at age sixty. We have to
address the issue. It won't go away. The number of
(05:35):
people in the age sixty five bracket is going to
double in the next twenty years. Does anybody believe we
can afford to double the superannuation payments? Know? So it
does require courage. It also requires, I think an honesty
that you're honestly looking at the facts in front of
you and making the decisions accordingly. You're not pretending that
(05:59):
they don't exist.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Jim, you mentioned superinnuation, But what other changes do we
desperately need to make? What issues do you think are
important to New Zealand right now that are not being
fronted by politicians.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I think we have to look at the economic model.
If we have an economic model that has people in
full time employment still requiring welfare support to survive, and
there's something wrong with the model. I mean, that's a
simple statement effect pretty complex to make the changes. But
if we're having more and more wealth aggregated by a
(06:32):
handful at the top, I mean the extreme of that.
That letter written by the multi billionaires urging the governments
to tax them more. See the instinctive thing of politicians
today seems to be we're going to continue spending more,
but we're not going to tax more. That's the nonsense.
By definition. So and I mentioned in the book that
(06:56):
most of the money that we've been spending in response
to the COVID nineteen pandemic has been created by the
Reserve Bank in Wellington. It's owed to nobody. Why don't
we look at how we might apply modern monetary theory
and just write most of that off.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I wanted to touch on, sorry, Jim, I wanted to
touch on COVID nineteen with you, because, of course David
mentions in the book that you brought this up long
before he even knew about it. What do you think
of the government's response?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
The response has been very good. A New Zealander's response
has been very good. It's been a united effort by
New Zealanders and I think that's been very very good.
But we can't rest on that. We have to say
what now we've spent in our spending and a committed,
according to yesterday's announcement, to spend much more. We're subsidizing
(07:46):
I don't know how many tens of thousand of employees now,
and that's probably the right thing to do. It is
the right thing to do. But how long can we
continue with the model that requires that? And I don't
see anybody asking these questions much less. No, that's in journalists.
I'm in yourself and truth. What we're going to do
to fundle this? It seems to be a question that's
(08:12):
one step too far for most people to ask well,
we're printing the money. How long can we do that?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Can I just go back to you talking about courage
and making changes and things. What accomplishments are you most
proud of? The ones that took courage for you to back?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
The most important was the treaty settlement process. To front
our pass with some honesty and then start to make
the adjustments necessary in the context of today. We can't
roll the clock back to the eighteen sixties or something.
(08:49):
In the context of today, what can we possibly do?
And I was proud to work alongside some very good
colleagues who worked with me to achieve I think, positive results,
and to work with some outstanding MARI leaders to achieve
positive results I think in terms of New Zealand in corporated,
that's the most important thing we have done in recent years.
(09:11):
And it's been very challenging for a lot of people.
I mean, the most normal observation that I received from
the average New Zealander when we started this process, well,
there's no issue. MARI had the same opportunity in New
Zealand as everybody else, So what's all this fuss about?
And they, of course they knew little of the history
(09:34):
because we don't teach it. I mean New Zealand. I
grew up very close to the famous Parija Kappa that
was invaded in eighteen eighty one. The leader's taken away
and put in duneedn caves, the village destroyed, the women
be used. I lived within three or four miles of that,
(09:55):
and I was never taught a single word of it.
Going through school, we hid our history because we were
ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And one of the things you actually mentioned in the book, Jim,
that you were disappointed that you didn't push through was
Terreo and schools.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
If I failed, I tried to get Terran's School teach
all children in primary school at least the first language
of the country. I was told it was impossible, there's
no teachers, et cetera, cetera. C It was just a
blank war from the bureaucracy. This couldn't happen. Now, the
good news is move on thirty or forty years and
(10:30):
we are starting to do much much more in this space,
and I encourage that, Jim.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Look, we've been hearing a lot of final speeches from
MP's talking about how sick the culture is within parliament.
Do you have any sympathy for MP's today. You know,
you had five kids when you first entered parliament, you
went on to have nine. You know, how did you
handle the challenges of family life and your role in parliament.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Had a wonderful wife for a start, and wonderful mother,
and there was a clearly joan to a magnimicent job. Absolutely,
as you say, we had known children and they're all
very successful adults in various parts in the government here
and abroad and around the world in business. But I
(11:19):
think it's overstated now. I don't know. I'm not in
parliament now and it's a bit hard to draw any comparisons.
But I don't see that it is as difficult as
it was in my early days in parliament. You didn't
have any secretarial services in the electorate. You had one
secretary typeis between say three or four members of Parliament.
(11:41):
You wrote to let it back by hand. I wonder
whether or not there's a bit of sort of self
Oh gosh, it's all too hard. I don't see why
it should be harder now than it was when we
were there a few years back, So I'm surprised. But
I'm not in there, so I can't comment, Jim.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What was it like being in Washington during nine to eleven.
This is something else that you touched on in the book.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Extraordinary, unbelievable because Americans grow up from the moment of
birth with the belief that they were a superior group
and they had total, absolute confidence that their nation home
would never be attacked, and then of course it did
in that early morning attack and twin towersand Pentagon and
(12:31):
so forth, and it was unreal to be there. I
was at a meeting in downtown Washington, one of the
famous breakfast meetings they have over there, And at the
end of that, while we're standing around chatting, somebody said,
a plane and hit the twin towers, and that had
happened before a small planes. The plane came was awf worse.
But when I got down to my driver and I said,
(12:54):
and he said to me, no second tower's being hit,
and I said, there's no accident. And it was an
unreal experience. It was so large and so incomprehensible that
people just fly large planes into the twin towers. But
the question that's never been answered is how was that
able to happen that four planes could be commented at
(13:17):
the same time and flown to attack America their own
planes full of American people. I mean, there has never been,
in my view, a clear explanation of how that began,
how that happened, how they were able to do that,
those pilots and their crew to take over those planes
and fly into the Twin Towers and into the Pentagon
(13:39):
and so forth. So it was unreal. And I went
back into Washington, sorry New York a short time after
the attack, and it was a surreal experience walking as
close as you could to where the Twin Towers were,
and there were just a few spit the skeleton steel around.
(13:59):
Frightening period for America, of course, and partecular, but also
for the world.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Jim, how do you think you would have gone living
in Washington under the rule of Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I'd been very agitated. I think the understandswer. I think
the world is not well served by the President of
the United States at the moment. And they've got an
election coming up shortly after ours, and we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And of yes, as you say, we have an election
campaign underway. What do you think of Judith Collins's chances?
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Oh, she's got a huge challenge. I mean, the polls
are never perfect, but they're not totally wrong. So she's
got a huge challenge in front of him. I'm sure
she's more than wise enough to know that. But she's
a robust personality and I'm certain that she will put
everything possible into the campaign. But this is a difficult campaign.
(14:53):
It's very similar, as I said, to nineteen eighty seven.
I became leader in eighty six. Roger Douglas was absolutely
the hero of the National Party wealthy groups because they
were making money. So we got to nineteen eighty seven campaign,
my first campaign as leader, and we increased our vote
(15:13):
by nearly ten percent, but brought us no more seats
really because everyone's going to make a fortune under Roger Douglas.
And of course the October eighty seven crash happened a
month after the election and they never recovered. And I
hope that it doesn't do that again this time, because
again we have a personality that everybody likes, entirely different
(15:38):
from Roger Douglas, one has to say in the current
Prime minister, but we have to do more than that.
We have to think about the policies behind the personality,
and they were totally flawed with Roger Douglas and the
crash happened, and we'll see what happens this time.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
What is going to win the election? Do you think then?
What do the parties need to do? Is it really
just get that policy out?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
JOm Well, I'd like to see some policy. I'd like
to see some policy to deal with the economic model
we've got at the debt we have now built up,
which is villains. And I hear some saying, well, well,
we'll just handle that, but I'd like to see how
they plan to handle that, because I've seen no indication
of that at all. I think there was another announcement,
(16:19):
Yes they have another few hundred million to be spent
on wage subsidies, and they may be necessary, but tell
us how are we going to come out of it
at the end of it? And I think we're not
looking at population trends at all, and they are dramatic
in terms not only of superinnovation, but in terms of
society is at large, and that's a big issue. I
(16:40):
think we have to be careful that we don't allow
white racism to emerge, because we know the terrible shootings
and the two mosques in christ church. We're in Australian
white races, but they're in New Zealand as well. That's
not pretend otherwise. And they're part of a sort of
frightened group. They see the world that they knew changing
(17:01):
before the eyes. They see the browning of the world.
They see the old Western domin which is dominated for
a few centuries, being surpassed by others. And they are
sort of withdrawing into I don't know their comfort zone,
all their fearful home. And I'd like us to talk
about these things so they're not sort of hidden under
(17:23):
the rug somewhere. We need to be up front talk
about the changes we're going to have in society. There's
a tendency now to sort of blame everything on China. Well,
China is a huge county, is going to be there forever.
Let's dealdle with these issues.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Jim, it has been a pleasure to talk to you
this morning. Thank you so much for your time. You
can go and enjoy your beautiful day. And why can
I now.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It isn't this beautiful? I promise you come up and
you'll see it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Oh look, it really has been a delight. Thank you
so much and Fridays with Jim By David Cohen as
in bookstores this Thursday.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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