Full Show Podcast: 15 June 2025

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudkin
from News Talks ed B.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
It's Sunday. You know what that means.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
It's the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkins and Wickles for
the best election of great Reads News Talks ed B.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Session. Good to
have you with us. I'm Bridgescobad being with you until midday.
Coming up on the show today, a theater turned film
writer and director, Celene Song joins us for a talk
about her latest film, Materialists, starring Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans
and Pedro Perscale. After the success of her Beautiful Day

(01:04):
film Past Lives was nominated for couple of Oscars, including
Best Picture, Selene has become one of the hottest directors around.
She joins me after tenth talk about why she wrote
a film about matchmaking and why she wants people to
take romantic films seriously. After eleven, we talked to a
yng Kiv doctor who spills the tea on the reality
of being a doctor in our failing health system. Ivo

(01:24):
Popovich is about to complete a specialist training in ICU
Medicine and his revealing book A Dim Prognosis. He covers
everything from the bullying and toxic work culture in our
hospitals to the alarming disparities between the private and public
health sectors in years of mistmanaged priorities. He does not
hold back in the book. He is with us after

(01:45):
eleven and as always your most welcome to text throughout
the morning. On ninety two, ninety two, the Sunday session
this week you marks the end of an era for
two classic Kiwi brands departments door Smith and Coey's announced
it will shut their doors for the last time at
four pm today, and hosiery manufacturer Columbine said that they

(02:07):
are closing their Gisban factory in August. These are both
sad events. Smith and Coey's has been part of Queen
Street for one hundred and forty five years. Columbine has
been keeping me in opak tights for as long as
I can remember, and others for a little bit longer.
But the news was hardly shocking. Manufacturing in New Zealand
has become increasingly challenging and costly over decades. Retail has

(02:29):
been transformed by online shopping and parallel importing a disruptive
pandemic didn't help, and continuing economic uncertainty means closures are
an unfortunate reality. And look, it is incredibly tough for staff.
And while no one involved is likely interested in silver
linings right now, we should take a moment to celebrate
that Smith and Culley employ people for one hundred and

(02:51):
forty five years and Columbine for seventy five years. Both
are significant achievements. But it is going to be an
emotional afternoon on Queen Street today, a tough day for staff, shoppers, suppliers,
and those who loved making the annual trip up the
elevator to see and to clause and the incredible Christmas displays.
I have a collection of photos in which at least

(03:12):
one of my children is crying while posed next to
the bearded stranger. I know my bad, but the ball
ball for the tree was always appreciated. Many of us
have memories of this Auckland retail icon, whether you live
in Auckland or visited over the years. Smith and Coey's
initially offered service and products you couldn't get anywhere else.

(03:32):
It was a historic company with a female founder ahead
of her time, set in a beautiful building. Think of
all the secrets and stories hidden in those walls. Smith
and Coey's explanation for closing was a perfect storm of adversity.
In addition to economic uncertainty, They referenced increased parking costs
and ongoing roadworks and the slow progress of the CRL

(03:53):
as having an impact on choppers. While today should be
a day of appreciation and fond memories, retailers can't actually
afford to be quite so nostalgic. There are lessons to
be learnt here about moving with the times, adapting to
competition and less exclusivity, and retaining customers. And remember this.

Speaker 4 (04:15):
Looking fine dancing the Glubine, looking.

Speaker 5 (04:20):
Feeling dancing the Columbine.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
If you remember the eighties, you will remember this jingle.
I'm sure it sounds familiar. Columbine A family business and
the last hosary manufacturer in New Zealand is going to
shut its doors and forty five jobs are going to
go once again, reality bites. A written statement from the
company said the decision was driven by a combination of
declining sales and increased operational costs, which made it unsustainable

(04:48):
to continue manufacturing in Gisbon. Interestingly, recently released data compileder
Informentris was looking at the types of jobs which have
disappeared over the last twenty five years. And if you
look at jobs in manufacturing such as sewing machinists or
footwell production machine operator, hidened skin processing machine operator, netting
machine operators, textile dying and finishing machine operators and others,

(05:12):
employment has fallen from fourteen, four hundred and seventy two
to five thousand, six hundred and eight since two thousand.
Now this isn't just because companies have closed, but because
technology has taken over. It's a reminder that change and
challenge are constant in most sectors. So surviving as a
manufacturer in New Zealand for seventy five years is nothing

(05:32):
to scoff at. It's actually very impressive and quite something really.
Both companies should be proud of their legacies.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
The Sunday session and of course, look the.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
Closure of department stores is not New Wellington lost Kilkaldy
and Stains. Then David Jones South Island lost eight in
j Smith in twenty twenty three. So do they lose
do they leave a gap when it comes to retail
or is it more of a nostalgic loss. Keen to
hear from your ninety two ninety two. Next we head
to the Middle East for the latest on the Israel

(06:03):
Iran conflict and Health Minister sim And Brown. It's gonna
be with us on how legislation is going to provide
a better health system for New Zealanders. That's coming up
here this hour on the Sunday Session. It is twelve
past nine.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
A Sunday with Style the Sunday Session with Francesca Runkin
and Wiggles for the best selection of Greg Reeds news.

Speaker 3 (06:22):
Talksby fifteen past nine and to the Middle East. First up,
conflict is escalating between Israel and Iran after Israel targeted
nuclear and military sites in Iran. With the latest Middle
East correspondent for The Economist, Greg Caulstrom joins me. Now,
good morning, Greg, Good morning to you. The air strikes
have continued for a second day. Can you give us

(06:43):
an update of what has taken place.

Speaker 6 (06:47):
There's been a very wide ranging campaign of Israeli airstrikes
across Iran on Saturday earlier in the day. Many of
them seem to be concentrated around Tehran, the capital the
Israeli Army said it was striking at air defenses in Tehran,
said subsequently that it had destroyed several dozen air defenses

(07:10):
around the capitol, but as they turned into night, the
strikes broadened out. There were some reports of at least
one Israeli strike on Iranian gas infrastructure near the Persian Gulf,
an Onshore refinery facility near the South Pars gas field,
which is the main gas field that Iran has in

(07:32):
the Gulf, and that would represent I think, a major
escalation in Israel's targeting, which until that point had been
focused mostly on military and nuclear sites. If it starts
hitting at critical infrastructure, particularly energy infrastructure in Iran, that
will be seen as a big escalation in the conflict.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
So what does that tell us about Israel's objective with
these attacks? This escalation I.

Speaker 6 (07:58):
Think I think this initial strike was a warning more
than anything else. I think it was a demonstration that
Israel does have the ability to hit at this sort
of infrastructure. But it doesn't necessarily yet signal a major
campaign of targeting that infrastructure. But the question is now

(08:18):
what Iran will do in response. There have been some
threats from the Iranian government throughout the day that they
might escalate their own strikes in Israel and try to
hit ports or other bits of critical infrastructure in Israel.
So I think both sides of this conflict right now
trying to figure out just how far and then how

(08:38):
much they want to escalate the fighting.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
And what is the chance, I mean, what is it
going to take to de escalate these attacks.

Speaker 6 (08:45):
I think it would take a big push from the
United States to de escalate the attacks. You know, for
the Israeli government there there's the stated goal here for Israel,
which is to do significant damage to Iran's nuclear program,
and that's going to take I suspect weeks of their
strikes to do. And then what seems to be the

(09:07):
undeclared goal for Prime Minister Natanyao for other Israeli officials,
which is to destabilize, if not bring down altogether the
regime in Tehran. Again, that requires a sustained campaign, So
the Israelis are looking at this as something that is
going to be prolonged. I don't think the Iranians are
going to capitulate either then surrender immediately.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
So it would take a.

Speaker 6 (09:32):
Push from the United States to try to negotiate some
sort of ceasefire, some sort of nuclear agreement with the Iranians.
But I don't think Iran is really in the mood
to talk under fire, at least right now, so I think, unfortunately,
this is likely to continue.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
The Israelis seem to have very good intelligence with their
first wave of attacks, greg they knew who they wanted
to hit, and where they wanted to hit and where
they were. Are you surprised by that?

Speaker 6 (10:03):
Not really, And I think particularly not after what we've
seen over the past twenty months since October seventh, the
sort of similarly remarkable way, for example, that Israel penetrated
Hezbollah in Lebanon and then had intelligence about its leadership.
Iran has been for Israel really the central focus of

(10:25):
its intelligence gathering apparatus for decades now. It's seen as
by far Israel's most serious state threat has been where
the Mossadi, Israeli foreign intelligence service has invested the bulk
of its resources. And so I think what we're seeing
is the result of a years long, if not decades

(10:47):
long campaign to gather intelligence in a country Iran, where
I think it's not surprising that there are obviously a
lot of leaks within the upper echelons. This is a
regime that is very unpopular amongst its own population. It
is plagued with all sorts of economic problems, of political legitimacy.

(11:08):
So I think not surprising that a government like that
has a lot of people within the system who are
obviously willing to work against the system.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
So greg do they know how far along around the
around nuclear weapon program is, how close they are to
building a small nuclear arsenal.

Speaker 6 (11:25):
Well, the claims from the Israeli government over the past
couple of days have been that Iran was further along
than anyone thought, that they have been working not just
to enrich uranium in recent months, but to work on
what's called the weaponization side of the program, of being
able to take that enriched uranium and fashion it into

(11:46):
a working nuclear bomb with triggers and timers and all
of the other components that you would need. They haven't
presented any evidence to support those claims. But even if
Iran wasn't that far along on that part of it,
they have made huge strides in enrichment over the past
few years. They were in a place before these strikes

(12:07):
where if they made a political decision to start enriching
uranium two weapons grade to ninety percent purity. They could
probably enrich a bomb's worth of uranium two weapons grade
in a matter of days. Now, they would still have
to again fashion that into a warhead and then figure
out how to deliver that warhead, so it's not a
working nuclear bomb, but it would at least give them

(12:30):
the capability to make sort of a dirty bomb of
a crude radiological device within just a few days.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
The US had plans to talk with the Iranians on Sunday.
These have been canceled. Do you think the Israeli strikes
give Trump leverage to get around back to the negotiation
table or do you think it might make them more
sort of determined to continue with their weapon building plans
for now.

Speaker 6 (12:56):
I think it is the latter. I think the Iranians
no one was surprised they canceled these talks on Sunday,
and then all of the messages that we've heard from
the regime over the past forty eight hours have been
very defiant. They're not going to negotiate at least right
now under Israeli fire. That is just not how this

(13:17):
government operates now. The Israelis have I think convinced Trump
that at some point this might give him leverage. I
think the question is, what if that prediction turns out
to be wrong, What if the Iranians don't come back
to the table, they're not willing to negotiate, Then I
think that puts Trump in a difficult situation. He asked
to decide how long does he want to support this

(13:39):
Israeli campaign which cannot go on without American support, both
defensive support to protect against ballistic missiles and resupply to
supply the Israeli army with weapons. So if Trump is
not able in the next week or two to get
the Iranians back to negotiations, then he's going to have
to decide does he want this to be an open

(14:00):
ended Israeli campaign or at what point is he going
to seek to restrain the Israeli govern.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Iran has warned the US, the UK, France that their
military bases and ships will be targeted if they block
their retaliation. Kes Dama has said that he's moving jets
and other military assets to the Middle East. Are we
looking at potentially a wider global conflict kicking off here?

Speaker 6 (14:28):
We've heard a lot of those threats from Iran, but
at least for the moment, I'm skeptical that they are
going to follow through on those threats. I think the
fundamental priority for the Iranian regime right now is regime survival,
right It wants to get through this conflict and remain intact,
remain in power. If it attacks Western targets in the region,

(14:51):
it is going to draw Western countries directly into this war,
countries that have significantly more military capabilities than Israel does.
So that will only heighten the threat to the Iranian regime.
And so I think because of that, the self interested
thing to do here is to yes threaten the West,
try to put pressure on the West, but not to

(15:12):
actually follow through. I think a more likely, still unlikely,
but more likely scenario is that they might start striking
at Arab states in the Gulf, countries like Saudi Arabia,
the United Arab Emirates, countries that are very close to
Donald Trump, that have good relations with the US, and
countries that are very nervous about getting dragged into this war.

(15:33):
We might see Iran or Iranian proxies in the region
strike at Saudi oil facilities, for example, as they did
back in twenty nineteen and hope that the Saudis will
then turn around and push Donald Trump to try to
pressure the Israelis into a ceasefire again. I don't think
that is a likely scenario either, but I think it's
more likely than direct attacks on American or European targets.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
Greg carl Strom, really appreciate your time and not it's
very late where you are.

Speaker 6 (16:01):
Thank you so much, Thank you my pleasure.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
It is twenty five past nine. Coming up. We're joined
by the Minister Simeon Brown.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
It's the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin on News Dogs
at be.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Good to have you with us now. Yesterday Health Minister
Simeon Brown announced a raft of law changes to refocus
the health system on results. He joins me, now, good morning, minister,
thank you very much for your time.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Let just go.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Why why do we need legislation for health targets?

Speaker 7 (16:35):
Well, the last government got rid of health targets and
everything went backwards, and our viewer is that we need
to have these in law so that over the successive
governments the health system is focused on the results that
matter most to patients and that's making sure they get
seen quickly in emergency departments, that we have focused on
improving the timeliness around elective surgeries, specialist appointments and ensuring

(16:59):
our young children getting those immunizations. And it's actually just
making sure the system knows what the focus it should
be focused on and then hold it accountable for that.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Okay, So why was this necessary though? Is there a
lack of focus on results and outcomes or do those
within the health system not have what they need to
deliver the results.

Speaker 7 (17:19):
We're putting record investment into the health system. We've got
seventeen hundred more nurses working at Health New Zealands in
twenty twenty three, two hundred more doctors. But ultimately the
system also needs to be focused on what those key
priorities are, and that's around timeliness of appointments, making sure
we're getting here, there's elective surgeries in a timely manner,
that people are seen quickly in emergency departments, and about

(17:42):
ensuring that we are focused on things like fast cancer treatments.
So by putting this into law, it focuses the system.
It seems a very clear message as to what the
government's priorities are and requires a system to deliver on
that over the long term.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Okay, So the whole idea here is that you're holding
the system to account.

Speaker 7 (17:58):
That's right, what the government puts one in every five
dollars it spends into the health system, and we want
to make sure that that money is going towards delivering
on those priorities that matter most to patients, and that
all parts of the system know what those priorities are.
And that then allows for transparency through the regular reporting
of that information so the public can see it, so
that the health the health bureaucracy and also all parts

(18:22):
of the health system know what those priorities are, know
how it's performing, and can see where it needs to improve.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
And then how do you see this flowing on to
know so the patients can benefit from this well.

Speaker 7 (18:34):
Ultimately, through regular reporting and through the system being focused
on outcomes, we're able to see improvements for patients. One
of the things we've done since I became Minister of Houses,
we've launched the Elective Boost, which is about reducing the
time that takes some people to get those really important
elective surgeries like hip operation, knee operations, careact operations by
outsourcing that through to the private sector and getting more

(18:56):
private sector involvement, maximizing what's delivered both in the public
and private system. And we've been able to see an
additional nine and a half thousand patients receive their elective
treatment in the last few months because we haven't been
ideological about it. We've been focusing on pragmatic solutions getting
patients seen and the timely manner by maximizing what's being
able to be delivered both in the public and private system,

(19:18):
which is what's good for patients.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Okay, so we've got really good figures with those elective surgeries.
Is this an approach that you would use going forward
because I imagine that the list will only grow again.

Speaker 7 (19:29):
Look, absolutely, we're committed to continuing to maximize what can
be delivered across the public and private system. This is
about ultimately getting patient seen quickly. But this is something
that needs to continue to happen so that we can
continue to reduce the number of people waiting for those surgeries.
The weight lists are ballooned over the last six years.

(19:50):
That's unacceptable for patients and I'm committed to continuing to
use both the public and private system to make sure
we reduce that weight list and ensure patients get seen
in a timely manner.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Okay, what about what are your other priorities when it
comes to targets that you're legislating for.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well.

Speaker 7 (20:06):
Other targets that we've got is around childhood immunizations. Again,
it dropped significantly under the last government. We're starting to
see progress on that important measure and that's critically important
to make sure that we're able to invest in preventative measures,
and that's really important. Other targets include our shortest stays
and emergency departments, and we're starting to see progress with

(20:28):
the number of people being seen within six hours improving.
But this is all about sending a very clear message
about what's important for patients and having the system held
to account as to what needs to be delivered, and
then that regular reporting so we can see where the
problems are and then address.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Them, Okay, and what happens if they aren't met well.

Speaker 7 (20:46):
Ultimately, that's where the government and Health New Zealand work
together to address those issues and those concerns and said,
we've invested record money into health. We've put seven percent
increased in fund seven percent increase in funding into health
in this year's budget, We've got more nurses, more doctors,
and we continue to make sure that the system delivers
for patients. That the focus. That's why these targets are there,

(21:09):
so we can highlight where the issues are and then
work to address them.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Simeon, talk to me about infrastructure. Will the changes you're
making in that area deliver the infrastructure the health system needs?

Speaker 7 (21:21):
Well, there's two challenges are here in terms of health infrastructure.
The first is we've underinvested in infrastructure health infrastructure over
a long period of time. The average age of health
buildings is around forty seven years, and so there's a
significant need to invest. The second issue is so that
means we need to invest more, and that's why we've
released the Health Infrastructure Plan which identifies that and we've

(21:43):
put a billion dollars additional funding in this year's budget.
But the second issue is actually of the money we
put into health infrastructure, we need to make sure it's
actually delivering on time and within budget. And that's where
there's been a significant issue within Health New Zealand around
delays to big projects or cost blowouts, and so one

(22:03):
of the changes that we're proposing in this legislation is
to put in place a Health Infrastructure Governance Committee in
Health New Zealand which is focused simply on delivering those
projects on time and within budget, and putting a group
of experts in place to help Health New Zealand fix
that problem. And that's really important because I'm keen. I

(22:24):
want to see the Health New Zealand Board focused on
delivery for patients, and I want to see this part
of the organization focused on delivering that infrastructure on time
and within budget, so we can get that infrastructure built
and delivering those benefits to patients and the health workers
who use it.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Sam and Brown very much appreciate your time on a
Sunday morning. Thank you for talking us through that.

Speaker 7 (22:45):
Thank you very much. Have a good day.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
So there we go. Tend to hear what you think
about that. Ninety two ninety two the Sunday session. Actually,
the techs are coming and thick and fast. I'll get
to those in just a moment. Interestingly, though, talking about
the department stores, a lot of texts here saying yeah,
really sad, A lot of people blaming Temu Francisca. Start
to see another couple of longs and here we brands
being mostly swept away by the tsunami. That is Timu

(23:10):
and their ilk another it's all Timou sending every business
to the wall, and all that money is going to China,
never to be distributed around the communities. It's a cancer
and needs to be stopped otherwise the Chinese is going
to turn up one day, raise their flag and say
this is our country.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
Now.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
I'm glad I've given you an outlet to get that
out this morning. And the Timu thing is really interesting. Actually,
I've got a dyce In vacuum cleaner that are brought
in a sale and it's got this really flesh sort
of head on it. The shines a light that shows
you all the dust, which is actually really horrific. One
of my very aggressive vacuums at home has managed to
damage that and one of the lights doesn't work and

(23:44):
it's chipped underneath and it scratches the floor a little bit.
It turns out they're really they're quite expensive to replace.
There are over four hundred dollars, so then you can
get the cheaper one that doesn't have the flesh lights
right there are one hundred and eighty dollars. But then
if you jump on Timu you can buy one that
looks exactly the same apparently from that vacuum cleaner that
is seventy five dollars, So you can kind of understand
why people go there. I'm putting my you know, tucking

(24:06):
more walled away, and I'm making a standard. I'm trying
not to use team book, but you know, when you
face with a situation like that, I can understand why
people are turning to it. A couple more texts here
this week. My eighty year old sister just spent two
days in ED before getting to award. How Nelson ed
is getting eight new beds, great, but no increase in
staff who were fabulous? Are they going to look after

(24:27):
the staff, asks Susie. I'll get to some more of
your texts on Simeon Brown's explanation there as to why
they are legislating their priorities their health targets. In just
a moment, local politics is up next. It's twenty three to.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
Ten for Sunday Session Full Show podcast on iHeartRadio powered
by News Talks FB.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
Coming up in just a moment, shoe designer Catherine Wilson
is going to be with us to talk about a
fashion week. But right now I'm joined by New Zealand
Hero Political editor Thomas Coglin. Good morning, Thomas, Thanks gom Jessica. Okay,
so the prime minister, he's after China and Europe. This
is his first trip to China, is it?

Speaker 8 (25:07):
It is? It is? So yeah, midway through the term.
It's about when when a prime minister would want to
head off to China. He's leaving first thing, Tuesday, Tuesday morning,
Shang High. First in Beijing, he's got a meeting with
President Sijin Ping, which is obviously the highlight event of
that tour. And then after Beijing he's off to Europe

(25:27):
after Brussels, where he'll meet the heads of the European Union,
and then to the Hague where there is the NATO
Summit of the NATO Alliance. The leaders from those NATO
countries will be there. So that's the likes of Emmanuel Macron,
Kiastana from France and the UK, but also Donald Trump,
US President Donald Trump, so that'll be his first meeting

(25:47):
with with with Donald Trump. He has met Sijan Ping
once before.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Okay, what do we expect getting out of these trips?

Speaker 8 (25:55):
And the big one on in China is obviously an
economic economic trip, but China remains a very important trading
partner for New Zealand. Tourism with China has not covered
tourism arrivals. We're at about sixty percent of pre COVID
levels and international education is very important from China, so
we want to make that recover too. The challenge is

(26:17):
that the Chinese side has offered New Zealand as visa
free travel to China. If you're a tourist, you can
just go there without a proper long term visa. New
Zealand is probably unwilling to offer the same to reciprocate that,
simply because there is a high risk that visa free
travel with China would mean would mean a high number

(26:39):
of asylum seekers coming to New Zealand's political refugees, which
New Zealand is is less keen on, and obviously the
government has to maintain that delicate balance of the security
issues with China as well.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Thomas wondering if you can explain something to me, why
did we have to wait months and months and months
for the Reserve Bank to come out and tell us
that Adrian or resigned for a very kind of standard
reason that a lot of bosses leave a job. I
don't quite understand where there was the oiah should take

(27:17):
twenty days took months. The informations relaxed is hardly shocking.
It's actually pretty normal, and you're kind of going, what
were they trying to hide here? Why did this take
so long? Actually, it's the kind of reason that I
thought would have actually been explained at the time when
he resigned.

Speaker 8 (27:34):
Yes, well, I would love to be able to explain
it to you, but someone would have to explain it
to me first. I don't think anyone knows why these
the facts that you've outlined are absolutely the facts of
this matter, and no one can explain why it took
them so long to come out with it. Yes, they
resigned at the time over a funding dispute of the

(27:55):
government that happens every five years. They negotiated something, he
wanted more money, the government wasn't going to give it
to him. The Reserve Bank board basically started with the government,
and so he quit, which is a totally volunteer thing
to do. You know, the new people would do the
same in that situation. And then, for whatever reason, the
Reserve Bank didn't actually come out and give that very

(28:15):
obvious and same and normal reason at the time. Instead
had a number of unusual statements at the time, and
it took months and months for these Efficient Information Act
requests to reveal not very many documents, frankly, which shed
more life on the case. No one, I mean even
the bank has had mattered that they talked too long

(28:36):
to release this information. They should have released them much
earlier and been more upfront with the effects of the
matter on the day.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
Okay, I'm Glenn not the only one that finds it
all a bit bizarre. Thomas, thank you so much. Don't
forget that. Writer director Selene songs with us after eleven
to talk about her brand new film, The Materialist. It's
a really good rom com slash romantic drama that's just
been released. It is sixteen to ten.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Putting the tough questions to the newspakers the mic asking.

Speaker 9 (29:03):
Breakfast, interesting stats on our public service workforces down three
point one percent. What's that meaning jobs? Well, two thousand
are gone, but quarterly we now have a zero point
four percent increase. Cameron bagrip independent economists.

Speaker 10 (29:14):
With us that old sort of adage about this lies
as damn lies and statistics now survive. We're locker goverment first,
and our expenses are up three point one percent. That
doesn't personify too much of a tightening in regard to
what's going on, so there might be a little bit
of hodgepodgings. There's a lot of writer about the government
tightening the belt, but all the savings are backloaded for
the structural gift, so it's still deteriorating over the coming

(29:35):
twelve months.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
It's going to get.

Speaker 9 (29:36):
West back Tomorrow at six am the Mike Hosking Breakfast
with the Defender Octa News Talk ZEDB Keep.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's simple, It's Sunday, the Sunday.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Session with Francesca Rudkin and Wikeles for the best selection
of great reads.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
News talk EDB.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
And New Zealand Fashion Week is back after the cancelation
of last year's event due to economic concerns. Giltrap Group
has secured naming rights sponsor for three years. It's great
news for the fashion industry, which is a bit of
a rough time. One of New Zealand's premier designers, Katherine
Wilson of Katherine Wilson Footwear, joins me. Now, Good morning Catherine.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
Good morning, Franciska.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Hey, So this naming rights sponsorship with Giltrap, particularly given
it's a three year deal, has you know, secured the
future of New Zealand Fashion Week? How important is that
security for the industry?

Speaker 11 (30:29):
Well?

Speaker 12 (30:29):
Absolutely, I mean it's fantastic news and it's been a
tough time for many industries, but retail and fashion being
one of them. So we're all delighted that we can,
you know, celebrate the industry, celebrate the talent that's here,
and hopefully increase our wholesale and export sales.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
Again, did you have concerns whether the event would return
it all?

Speaker 4 (30:51):
Ah?

Speaker 12 (30:51):
Well, I guess the other way around. We had hopes
that it would, and I think it was intended to
be a bi annually the announcement not last year, so
we were really hoping it was coming back this year.
But there's also some really awesome changes to the structure
of it and the venue and the way that they've
been approaching the designers, which is really exciting to have
some change there.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, tell me about that. What's fashion we're going to
look like this year?

Speaker 4 (31:15):
Wow?

Speaker 12 (31:16):
As I understand it, I think there's just a lot
more options for designers to contribute in ways that are
within their means, and whether that means the time, you know,
the commitment of their time. You don't necessarily have to
do a big show a catwalk show. There's some brands
doing cocktail nights in their store or hosting events in
a local bar or restaurant, so supporting the local hospitality

(31:37):
as well. In the CBD, which is really important to
the board and the team that have put the event together.
I think they're really stuck to make it more of
a you know, across the whole CVD rather than just
on site at the venue.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Oh that's great, and designers are feeling really positive about
these changes.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
I hope.

Speaker 12 (31:55):
So, I mean, it doesn't make it more feasible for
a lot of people that aren't in a headspace or
financially capable of doing a big show. Obviously, it's a
huge commitment for the designers to put on the big
catwalk shows. I'm excited to be doing a show because
our brand we love to celebrate and our product really
does come to life on the models and on the
catwalk being shoes. You know, you can do a lot

(32:17):
of storytelling with music and models and build the kind
of the romance around the brand. So we're definitely doing
a big showcase on site at ship ten.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
I was going to ask you about that while ahead
you Cass, it's showcasing shoes quite different compared to those
who are showcasing garments. I mean, do you have to
be careful that you don't let the garments sort of
take your eye away from the shows?

Speaker 12 (32:39):
You know, now, while you'll be sitting front right of mine, Francisco,
you can give me a review. But I always like
to have a bit of fun with our shows, and
it is important to I guess, uplift the audience. I think,
with shoes being the only product that's changing throughout the show,
even if you're a huge shoe fan and a huge
Catherine Wilson fan, we still are really focusing on entertaining

(33:02):
the audience. So often you'll see our shows have real
playful eighties and nineties playlists. The models are upbeat, they're
almost dancing themselves on the catwalk, and it's a true
celebration of the people that work on the brand behind
the scenes, all the hair, the makeup teams, and the
Cassro and Wilson team that put it together. So we

(33:23):
try and make it as lighthearted as possible. But definitely
feels like a celebration.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
You sort of touched on it a little bit at
the beginning of the interview, but as a designer, Fashion Week,
why is it important? What does it do for you?

Speaker 12 (33:38):
Well, it's hugely important, I think for the industry to
celebrate each other of nothing else. You're kind of bringing
each other together as a support network. There's a lot
of learnings there and shared learnings with wholesale contacts, manufacturing contacts.
It's our one big industry event that annually we come
together and kind of I guess share, not only share ideas,

(33:58):
but share your energy and share your resources across the brands.
I think it's so important for wholesale, like getting the
Bias to out in New Zealand and hopefully Australia buyers,
hopefully Asia, Hong Kong. You know, back in the day
we used to This platform is what got Catherine Wilson
sold into Hong Kong, la New York. We've picked up
stockers from all all over and that was due to

(34:21):
Fashion Week, because I guess they bring the attention down.
This platform is a great way to showcase the brand,
but it's also a great way to showcase our industry
and the talent that's here for export.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Which is great. And look this morning we've been talking
about a couple of end of errors today. You know,
the retailer Smith and Coe's shuts today at four and
Columbine of course have been our last hosiary manufacturer in
New Zealand has announced it's going to close. So it
is good to have some possib possib activity. We know
a lot of retailers struggling. How is the fashion industry fairing? Well, absolutely,

(34:56):
it's tough.

Speaker 12 (34:56):
I mean it's been tough for five years for lots
of reasons. And I think you just you know, I'm
twenty two, twenty three years in business and it is cyclical.
So you have to batten down the hatchers, you know,
head down, bums up and try and be you know,
inventive and creative about how you're bringing in new ideas,
new energy to the brand. It is an opportunity and
I know that sounds like sometimes it's the hardest thing

(35:19):
to do when you're running on low tank of resilience,
but it is an opportunity to turn around what you're
doing as a business and as a brand. And sure
retail has been quiet. So you know, our focus as
a brand for four or five years has been e
commerce and rarely pushing our brand into a global audience,
but definitely nationwide as well. Just providing like the best

(35:40):
service possible that we can with our online store. And
when our retail stores picked back up again, there's an
opportunity there to your your audience is already ready for you.
You know, we're actually opening a new store in Arotown
in two weeks.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
So call me crazy or bray.

Speaker 12 (35:55):
But I think it's the timing that you have to
do some different things, you know, as a brand and
as a business, and possibly those rests you don't take
of everything's smooth sailing.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh good on you, Catherine, Really appreciate your time this morning.
Best of luck with the new shop in Arrowtown. And
I love the optimism right. Fashion Week is returning from
August the twenty fifth to the thirtieth, and yeah, it
does sound like a lot of designers. Karen Walkman is back.
She hasn't been part of fashion Week for a long time.
She is pretty excited about the change of direction as well,

(36:25):
So I think that that is a very good sign.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
With News talk'sb it is seven to ten the.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Sunday Session Full show podcast on my Heart Radio powered
by News Talks FB.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Thank you very much for the texts. Hi Francisca. Simeon
Brown is the man as far as our friends are concerned, too.
Have had cataract ops and couple tunnel ops done months
faster than normal. Theat op was one of thirty done
over the weekend recently, and the surgeons at another thirty
the weekend before all good text mark another one from
Paul Francisca. Both my cataracts were done within a year

(37:00):
of referral. I have friends who've had to wait years.
The surgeon was enthusiastic about National's health direction. He was
gathing about labors bloating the system for no beneficial result.
I can see now. Good to hear Paul, and look,
it was really interesting hearing him talk about how they
will potentially use the private system ongoing to keep on
top of these waiting lists. We'll talk about more of

(37:22):
that in the panel later in the show. Another one.
Here's mister Brown is quoting recruitment numbers for nurses from
twenty twenty three. There was a recruitment freeze after that,
so it'd been nice to hear current numbers of frustrated
nurse knows. There are huge numbers of nurses leaving and
not being replaced. And look, we've been talking about the
closure of Smith and Coey's and a lot of you

(37:44):
are mentioning TIMU. Somebody text to say, well, when all
your money goes to the supermarkets, electricity and gas companies,
looks good to us. Totally. I get it, As I've
said to you, I do get it. Trying hard not
to go there. Somebody else says that TEMU buyers must
have to start paying JST all businesses do, and there
is so much coming into the country that is not
paying tax. This inevitably ds people out of work and

(38:07):
loses and job losses in businesses close. So thank you
very much for all your feedback.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
This hour.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Coming up next our Selene Song. I think she's a
rock star. Celene Song. She has released a new film.
She's a writer director. She's released a new film all
about love and the transactional nature of relationships. It's called Materialists.
It is, it looks gorgeous, it's lush. It's set in
New York City. It stars Dakota Johnson, Chris Evans and

(38:35):
Petro Perscale. But it's also a refreshingly honest take on
love and might just polarize audience a little bit. It's
going to give you plenty to talk about that, It's
for sure. So the Oscar nominated Selene's song is with Us. Next,
We're going to finish up with a little bit of
material Girl. This is a remix from the film actually.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
In the material World name.

Speaker 13 (39:04):
We are.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Welcome to the Sunday Session with Francesca Rutkin and Wiggles
for the best selection of great reeds used to talk me,
love you, to.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Have you with us. This is a Sunday session. It
is seven past ten now. Silene Song has become one
of the hottest film directors around. Her twenty twenty three
debut film Past Lives was huge. It was hailed as
the best Sundance debut in years and received two Oscar nominations,
including Best Picture. Silene's second film as a romcom of sorts,
inspired by her own short stint as a matchmaker in

(39:45):
New York. It's in cinemas now. It's called Materialists.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
Hey are you single?

Speaker 14 (39:50):
You're a matchmaker?

Speaker 15 (39:51):
Give me a call if you want to meet somebody.

Speaker 5 (39:54):
I deserve someone who fulfills all.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Of my criteria, noping over twenty PM.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
I don't want someone who likes cats.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
I'm trying to settle.

Speaker 14 (40:01):
I promise you're going to marry the love of your life.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Sweet, how many marriages are you responsible?

Speaker 5 (40:08):
Born now, Lucy nine.

Speaker 14 (40:12):
If the girl asks for us, all drink of water
has been fine with a salary.

Speaker 15 (40:17):
Over five hundred grand always missed you deliver, Selene Song
joins me.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Now, good morning, good morning. After the success of Past Lives,
did you have lots of offers? Did Hollywood come callings?
And what would you like to do well?

Speaker 14 (40:35):
I think that I already knew what I wanted to do,
because I actually, before Past Lives had its beautiful Sundance premiere,
I actually had already written Materiless. It's a story that
I've been wanting to tell for a really long time.
And there was a few months period between when I
finished Past Lives and when it came out into the

(40:55):
world at Sundance, and at that time, I think that I.

Speaker 5 (40:58):
Wanted to write my next movie.

Speaker 14 (41:00):
So it was really a story that came from the
time that I worked as a matchmaker for six months
as a day job back in my twenties, and ever
since then, I always knew it was going to be
something that I make something about. So I spent that
I used that opportunity to write a script for Materialists.
So the whole time I was making I was releasing

(41:21):
Past Life. The whole time I was releasing Past Lives, I.

Speaker 5 (41:25):
Knew that my next movie was going to be Materialists.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Is that quite frustrating, because because you know, when you
release the film when it's a success, is just like
Past Lives was, It takes up a lot of your time,
doesn't it. It can take years of your life when
you're quite keen to just crack on to the next one.

Speaker 5 (41:42):
Well, I feel like that desires of course there, But
you have to watch the life of this movie through.

Speaker 14 (41:49):
And I think that because it was my debut film,
I had so much.

Speaker 5 (41:53):
Interest and energy in learning what a life cycle of
a movie was.

Speaker 14 (41:58):
So I feel like I really enjoyed giving the whole thing,
giving my everything to, you know, my very first movie.
And I think I've really learned a lot from that,
and I do think that it really did maybe a
better filmmaker too in a way, because it's just like
I don't know, it's like you just learn a lot
meeting your audience.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
You know, I'm fascinated by the six months that you
spent as a matchmaker. How did that come about?

Speaker 14 (42:26):
Well, I was a playwright for about ten years. And
the thing about our living in New York City, and
I think that this is probably relatable for so many
of us, But in New York City, the rent is
very high and it is really hard to be a
freelance artist, and especially experience artists in theater.

Speaker 5 (42:46):
And tried to pay rent. So I needed a day job.

Speaker 14 (42:51):
And the thing about you know, New York City is
that because the city of dreams, full of really ambitious,
wonderful people, that the day job market is very competitive.
So I couldn't really get a day job. Like I
tried to get a day job the barrista, and then
I learned that every brista job needed ten years of
brista experience. So I was just in a situation, unfortunately,

(43:14):
where I was getting a little bit desperate for a
day job, and I met somebody at a party who
was working as a matchmaker, and then I got really
interested in it, and I just like interviewed for the
job and got and got trained, and I got to work,
and I only worked for about six months. So but
you know, I think I learned more in those six

(43:35):
months than I did any other part.

Speaker 5 (43:37):
Of my life.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Were you good at it?

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Well?

Speaker 5 (43:41):
I mean I feel like I didn't do again, I
didn't do it for so long. I feel like so
much of just like any.

Speaker 14 (43:45):
Job, I would say, so much of the job is
the consistency, like you have to be you have to
stick to it. You know, you can't be good at
it after having done it for so short a time.
You have to kind of like grow and improve in it.
But the reason why I quit is because it was,
honestly because the job was too fun. My day job
ended up being too fun, I know.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
And it's because.

Speaker 14 (44:08):
It's so fascinating because all these strangers toward your clients,
they just tell you what's in their heart. They tell
you what's in their heart in a way that I
would say that they wouldn't even really share with their therapist,
right because it is.

Speaker 16 (44:22):
Just such a thing that is connected to one's desire
and the most sacred of all love, the feelings of
I want to be loved, I want to love so
because it is about it is a business when it
comes to that, right, I mean dating as an industry
that I think that I just learned so much about

(44:46):
what's in people's hearts.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
And we see that in the film. There's a moment
when Lucy, you know, asks one of her clients just
that she's about to get married, and she's got cold feet,
you know, deep down, tell me, tell me what you're
not going to tell anybody else. Why do you What
is the reason why you want to get married? So
what an amazing experience? And what else did you learn
about people from your time in that role?

Speaker 14 (45:12):
Well, I think that the main thing is that often
what we are being faced with, right is the way
that I think that we want to feel very valuable
in the world. And I think this is something that
comes from a whole lifetime of being commodified and and objectified.

Speaker 16 (45:31):
Right.

Speaker 14 (45:31):
It's kind of like, you know, there's a line in
my film that goes, I'm not merchandised, I'm a person.
And to me, it's feel much about how the modern world,
the way that the internet works, the way that we're
asked to sort of like, uh, you know, show everybody
our photos and be seen. And also like there's a

(45:52):
very literal dating market on your phone, just like you
know anything from tender to you know, bumble or whatever.
So much of those things are happening because and so
many of those things are resulting in all of us
starting to see ourselves as a bit of merchandise. And
I think that what I really was interested in in

(46:12):
with this movie is how in a world where we're
being asked to treat ourselves as merchandise and that we
should try to improve our value right and become a
more valuable person, how in the middle of that we're
able to find this really ancient mystery and this ancient
feeling which is love, this thing that is famously not quantifiable.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
It's famously something that.

Speaker 14 (46:38):
Is invisible and immaterial and just something that remains a
mystery to this day. And I think that you know
something that I think about it is like, well, merchandise
cannot love another merchandise, but a person can love another person.
So how do we in this world where we are
being asked to be asked to live like we're being

(46:58):
asked to live like merchandise, how we still remain being
a person And how do we actually still believe even
true love how could we do that? Sometimes when I
talk about true love, I'm always like, I sound like
I think I sound like I'm saying, let's believe in the.

Speaker 5 (47:14):
Santa Claus right.

Speaker 14 (47:16):
It feels so difficult in a world where that's that's
increasingly feeling very cynical, where we're trying to turn everything
into algorithms. I think that it's so hard to still say, yeah,
but there is this thing, true love that I think
that is possible between people, and I don't know. I
always find it to be sometimes met with such cynicism,

(47:39):
but I can't help it.

Speaker 5 (47:40):
I believe in it.

Speaker 17 (47:41):
You know.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
You know what I love about this film is you
explore so much. You explore personal expectations, social norms. You know,
marriage is a business deal, this idea of settling for
someone that you might think, you know isn't worthy of you,
and even just talking as you say, about what south
Worth is and things and about the math and about

(48:06):
you know, love And I think this is the kind
of film that people are going to hit along to
and they're going to be entertained, but they're also going
to leave with a whole lot of other stuff to
talk about. Have you found that the film has just
opened up all these conversations.

Speaker 14 (48:20):
Yes, I think that, you know, like the most common
thing that I've heard even so far. And I feel
like as the movie comes out all around the world,
I'm going to keep hearing it, which is that we
haven't stopped talking about it since. So I think some
of it is going to be about opening up a
new ways of talking about ourselves.

Speaker 5 (48:41):
And the way we love and the way we believe
about love.

Speaker 14 (48:44):
And it doesn't mean that everybody's going to agree or
what's going to feel one way, but it is still
going to mean that we're going to get to talk
about it.

Speaker 5 (48:51):
I'm going to get to talk about it deeply. And
I just feel like there are so few there are
so few venues.

Speaker 14 (48:59):
There's so few venues where we get to talk about
our feelings, right. There's actually so few places where we
are able to talk about what we believe when it
comes to love and life, right. And I think that
maybe it's going to be such a special thing that
you can come see this movie, sit in the movie

(49:20):
theater for a couple hours, and then when you walk
out of it, you're going to start a conversation that's
going to help you basically that's going to make you
learn something about yourself or each other, right, hopefully both.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Right, absolutely, And as somebody who has watched a lot
of romantic comedies and romantic dramas over the years, what
I really loved is that you take the genre seriously,
you give it, yes, you know you kind of I
found it really refreshing that there was all this There
was so much more depth in this film that I
maybe anticipated I should have after seeing pastives, but I

(49:57):
kind of just been I love the fact that you're
actually this isn't just sort of a throwaway pretty flick
that's selling me a fantasy. It's actually questioning the thing
to see as well.

Speaker 18 (50:08):
Of course, why I feel like the thing is like
I think the genre is often not given enough respect,
right because, which I think is really unfortunate, because.

Speaker 14 (50:19):
I think about this in terms of what we call
romance films as chick flix, right, and people say, well,
there is a chick flick, it's not a serious movie.
I think about this as very sad in a couple
of ways. I think in one way, that's saying that
chick flicks are not serious. You're saying that chicks are
not serious.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
People right.

Speaker 14 (50:40):
And on the other hand, the other way that this
is sad is that you're saying that, well, for serious people,
the matters of the heart, and then the way that
we are asked to love in the modern world, the
way that our heart moves is not it should not
be of your interest. And why shouldn't serious people be
robbed of talking about this very universal theme, this thing

(51:03):
that is a miss and a drama that haunts all
of us. You know, not all of us know what
it's like to say the world, but I think that
all of us do know. This is one thing, no
matter how ordinary you are, this is the one great
drama that is in your life. You can do this
very extraordinary, very brave thing, which is to love someone

(51:27):
and to be loved, which is when it happens, a
complete miracle. Of course, the movie is always talking about
it as an incredible miracle when it happens, and the
only thing you can do when you're offered it is
to say yes.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
I read that when you write a script and you
write characters, you don't have an actor in mind, you
don't write for a particular person. I thought that was
interesting because I really felt like you and the code
were on the same page here, I felt like you'd
written this for her.

Speaker 5 (51:57):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 14 (51:58):
Well, I think that that's sort of how it feels
like the cast. I mean, I think that cast thing
is a matchmaking process, and I would always talk to
my my casting directors thought. I was always talked to
them as if they are matchmakers, right, because I have
the characters on the page that I have created in words,
and then you go out into the world in search

(52:19):
of the soulmate the way that a matchmaker would. So
you're going out there and you're just kind of and
I wish that it was something like that you could
use math for. But the truth is that you actually
go out into the world and then you actually get
to experience it as an inspiration as if it's love, right,
and I have to fall in love with the idea

(52:40):
of them as characters. And when it comes to the koda,
I'm so glad you point that out, because that was
it was so clear when it came to Dakota. Like
when I met Dakota, it was just the general meeting.
We were just hanging out. We just came to know
each other as people, and then it was incredible because
he then she and I I don't believe, Sorry, I
don't believe in love at first sight, but I believe

(53:01):
in love at first conversation. So I was just in
you know, in conversation with her, and I fell in
love with the idea of her as Lucy. It felt
like I was sitting there with Lucy, and before she
got up from lunch lunch to go home, and I.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
Was still sitting there.

Speaker 14 (53:18):
But before I got up, I texted eighty four and
my producers and said, I think that I found there Lucy.
That's how clear it is, just like love. Just like love,
when it happens.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
It's so obvious.

Speaker 14 (53:33):
So that's how inevitable it felt with the Koda, and
I think that it also extended then, of course, because
she was the first one to be tasked, because she's
just a movie.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
She's the one who has to build the rest.

Speaker 14 (53:45):
And then I think that I met Chris and I've
known Petro, and for both of them, it really again
was about falling in love with that. It's about falling into,
you know, a person to a person, feeling for it
and something that of course, you know the line that
I was saying, the important line in my movie not merchandise.

Speaker 5 (54:08):
I am a person.

Speaker 14 (54:10):
I think all actors understand this, but of course my
three actors can really understand this because they've all been
treated as merchandise before. So I think that so much
of it is about also falling in love with the people.

Speaker 10 (54:22):
Right.

Speaker 14 (54:23):
It's like, maybe you won't think that it's obvious that
Chris Evans as a merchandise would be right for the
role of John, but when you meet Chris the person,
it's so obvious. You know, Like if you meet Chris
as a as a guy, you just go, oh my god,
he's a John and he's perfect and he's actually born
for it, you know, And I think that's what's really

(54:44):
been So that's what I really love aboadcasting.

Speaker 5 (54:47):
It's like you're just falling in love for the right.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
People finally sellen you know, past lives and as you've
just been talking about, materialists draw on your own personal experience.
Is there something that we're going to see sort of
continue with the films that you make. Does it make
sense to you to be inspired by your own life experience?

Speaker 14 (55:08):
Well, I feel like, you know, I think, don't matter
what I do, I know that it's going to be
in some way, a thing that I'm giving myself too, right,
So I think it's more like what's in this situation?
I feel like so much of it it was and
is inspired by the things that you know that I've felt, right,
But I think that no matter what I do, and

(55:30):
even the parts of past lives or materialists that are
not directly from my experience, even those things still have
to pull from my humanity, right, it has to still
come from how I am as a person and how
I am as a human being. So in that way,
it's always going to have a piece of me in it,
in a very deep, in a pretty philosophical way, like

(55:54):
I think materialists, you know, like it's it's still a
story about Lucy, who is not me. But still it's
going to have throughout the DNA of what I believe.

Speaker 5 (56:06):
About love and life.

Speaker 14 (56:08):
Right, It's going to fully have what I know are
about the world and what I believe. Right, It's gonna
be pretty clear about what I think about love and life.

Speaker 10 (56:19):
You know.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
Selene, thank you so much for your time today, very
very much appreciate it. Thank you for the movie.

Speaker 5 (56:25):
Thank you so much, Thank you so much. This was
so fun.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
That was director Selene's song. Her new film Materialists is
in cinemas now and Don't Forget After eleven, I'm joined
by Kiwi doctor Evil Popovich to talk about his revealing
book on the state of the New Zealand houth system
and the reality of working in a New Zealand hospital.
It's twenty four past ten.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Relax, it's still the weekend.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
It's a Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin and Wiggles for
the best selection of Great Reads news talks.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
That'd be when you're looking for a good book to read.
Wickles knows that the range of choice can be overwhelming.
It's important that you find the one that's right for
you or for the person to whom you might be
gifting it, and that's where the power of recommendation comes in.
That's why Wickles offers the Top one hundred, the Kids
Top fifty, and Jones picks the Top one hundred and

(57:15):
Kids Tops fifty. Top fifty have been voted for by
the likes of readers of New Zealand readers, So if
thousands of people have loved them enough to vote for them,
chances are you'll love them too. Jones picks as a
selection of books by the Wickles head book buyer, the
titles she has read and loved, and they come with Jones'
highest recommendation with the top one hundred Kids, Top fifty

(57:37):
Jones Picks plus books, games, puzzles, toys, gorgeous stationary and more.
There really is something for everyone at Wickles.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
The Sunday session.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
Body's in here again, real well known.

Speaker 13 (57:50):
Yeah guys, and they leave us alone.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
So, following the passing of Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson,
this week Green Day frontman Billy Joel Armstrong he shared
this never before heard cover of what he says is
his favorite song ever. And Green Day are also heading
to the Download Festival in the UK and joining me
now to talk entertainment is Steve Neuill, editor at flicks
dot co dot m ZE. Good morning, Good morning, and

(58:25):
actually the Download Festival has been in the news for
quite interesting reason.

Speaker 19 (58:30):
You here's the funny. There's quite a long list of
things that it's recommended not to take into mosh pits,
like full glasses of beer. I was never a fan
of dreadlocks in the mosh pit, particularly.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Some of them are obvious, exactly.

Speaker 19 (58:43):
Exactly, But at Download Festival, which is taking place at
Donnington Park in the UK this weekend, as headlined by
Green Day, Sleep, Tooken and Corn Concert girls have been
advised not to have this smart watches on in the
mosh pit, which is okay, like they maybe don't have
a smart smart watch in the mushpit at all, But

(59:03):
it's because the collision between mush was triggering emergency alerts
and the police were getting hundreds of calls to nine
nine nine in the UK, but automated based on people's
watches thinking that they've been in car accidents but actually
just having a good time.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Oh that's funny. I didn't know that I don't have
a smart watch. I didn't know that they can do that.
Will the phone do that as well?

Speaker 19 (59:29):
I mean, I'm not not sure any issues in the
pit with my phone so far, but I was not
a smart watch guy.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
I'm sitting here trying to dance, which is very unusual
in this chair right now. But it must just be
violent movements of hands is and smashing into other people.

Speaker 19 (59:44):
I guess it's sudden acceleration and rapid acceleration, which is
all the makings of a fun night.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
Well that is so funny. I thought it might be
because too many were getting damaged and all people would
you know, getting waked in the face with them, I
can imagine.

Speaker 19 (01:00:00):
So what would happen would be that your your device
would would register this like sudden impact, and if you
it would give you some kind of an alert, and
if you didn't take any action after thirty seconds would
automatically get to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
You wouldn't even realize it had gone off. Would you probably.

Speaker 19 (01:00:15):
Washing away? Why did you pay attention to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Your the noise? Okay, there we go. Something to bear
in mind next time my head into a mosh. But
exactly I will keep that in mind and watch out
for dreadlocks. Hey, sly Stone documentary sly Lives has hit
Disney Plus. Tell me about that?

Speaker 19 (01:00:31):
Yes, so this is this a ride with not nearly
enough fan for a few months ago, but with the
passing of sly Stone alongside Brian Wilson this week, two
of the most enigmatic musical geniuses of the twentieth century
passed away within days of one another. Sly Stone of
sly and the Family Stone, like utters savant genius. His

(01:00:52):
life story was recounted in the documentary sly Lives, directed
by the roots drummer Questlove. Questlove won the Academy Award
for Best Documentary a couple of years ago for Summer
of Soul, which was another fantastic black music focused documentary.
The title sly Lives is a bit sort of sadly
ironic now this week, but this film was made to

(01:01:14):
sort of retell his story and what made him such
a groundbreaking artist, writer, producer and musical genius but also
a highly troubled one. Film's great. It's on Disney Plus.
Alongside recounting the sort of beats of Stone's career, it
also examines through interviews with some people that have been

(01:01:37):
highly influenced by Stone, like there wouldn't be a Prince
without Slyestone sadly not with us to participate in this film,
but there wouldn't be a DiAngelo either of they wouldn't
be outcast. So hearing from some of those individuals about
the legacy of sl Stone and the difficulties he encountered
being a very prominent Black genius makes for a very thrilling.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Watch him this week.

Speaker 19 (01:02:02):
Then, yeah, absolutely, and it goes kind of light on
the troubled years life we were sort of in and
out of rehab and jail because the focus really is
on the incredible legacy that he left behind. Sly Lives.
You can catch that on Disney Plus, and if you
want to reversit Brian Wilson, there's always the Paul Dano
starring biopeic Love and Mercy from Yes about a decade.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
Ago, which is quite lovely. That's a pretty sweet what
was good?

Speaker 19 (01:02:27):
Wasn't that very sweet portrayal of Wilson? But you know
it does suffer from some of the biopeic cliches. Sly
Lives is great, so it's just got all this great
archive and goes right for the heart of what it's
trying to do.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
I like it, Thank you so much, Steve Right. What
if your next medical test was undertaken by breathing into
a tube? We often take our breath for granted, but
behind every inhale and exhale, it's a complex web of
brain networks working quietly in the background. What can they
tell us? Michelle Dickinson has more on this next It's
twenty six to eleven.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
It's the Sunday set with Francesca Rudkin on news Talks.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
It'd be.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
And with her science study of the week, Doctor Mi
Sheeldkinson joins me, Now, good morning, good morning. Breathing is
something we all take for granted. You just don't realize
what you're doing. We don't realize we're doing it. And
as I learned last year, I'm very bad at it.
I've got better at it. I've had to learn how
to breathe. But our brief could be used for some
really interesting medical results diagnosing.

Speaker 15 (01:03:34):
This is another lovely study. It's in the General Current Biology.
You can have a read of it if you want.
It's open source. And what they did is they took
a hundred volunteers and they put like a little canulate
in their nose. So imagine if you're in hospital and
you have like sometimes you have the oxygen, you knows
like you just can go all the way up your nose.
It just sort of sits on the bottom of your
nostrils and then it measures your air coming out of
your notes. Now, this is a very specific study on

(01:03:56):
how you breathe out of your nose, not out of
your mouth. This is they say, that's very important. And
what they did is they took these hundred volunteers and
they wore this canula for twenty four hours, and they
just measured every single breath they took, how deep it was,
how often it was, what they were doing, and really
they focused on when they were asleep, because actually your
breath stabilizes typically when you're asleep. And they took all

(01:04:17):
of this data, they programmed it into some machine learning,
and then they sent the people away for two years,
and then they brought them back two years later and
they did the same test, and they found that they
were able to identify the person who was breathing just
by their nasal breath measurement with a ninety seven percent
accuracy two years later, meaning that we don't change the

(01:04:38):
way that we breathe, and we all have a breathing fingerprint,
like we all breathe really differently. And they went, that's interesting,
I wonder why we all breathed differently. And so then
they started going into things like looking at the people
and trying to understand if the people were different, there
was anything going on, and they found that you can
determine whether or not somebody has higher anxiety levels by

(01:05:01):
their breathing because they have short it inhales during their sleep.
You can all so determine whether somebody has a higher
depression score because they have a stronger nasal airflow and
they have longer pauses after their breathing, And you can
determine if people have higher autism traits because they have
longer pauses between their breasts and there's more variability between

(01:05:23):
their breasts. So they're able to diagnose these things so
quickly just by breathing in. And if you think about
how you do a depression score, normally you would have
to fill out all these questionnaires, go see a therapist.
And they were like, you could do that, or you
could just breathe into this strebe where you're sleeping and
we might be able to help you decide if you're
high risk or that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:39):
So is the way we breathe really as unique as
a fingerprint.

Speaker 15 (01:05:43):
That's what they said they were. And so at last
week I was talking about clapping being your fingerprint. I
feel like we have all these fingerprints, and now this
week we're breathing is our fingerprint too. So they said
that within ninety seven percent acturity, and they said no
patient breathed even closely to alike.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
They were able to determine that. If you ask people, though,
they will probably be able to identify. If you put
them in a room, a dark room and they lay
there with someone, they would be able to identify their
partner probably by the way they breathe. Couldn't they sing you,
you'd be able to go that one's mine.

Speaker 15 (01:06:09):
And I don't know because I have that weird thing
where I list it like sounds annoy me. You have
it too, Yeah, but breathing sounds. If people breathe like
it really bugs me, I can hear them at the
other end of a room, So I might be able
to identify lots of different people because it's the thing
that gives me my gripes. But anyway, yeah, so we
all breathe totally differently. But imagine if instead of having
to go to see a therapist or even what you
could do is just do a breathing test once a

(01:06:31):
month and it might go, hey, you're at higher risk,
or we can see from your last night's breathing that
you're at higher risk of this. You might want to
go see somebody about your anxiety or depression, or maybe
you've got autism. And those are just a few of
the things that they looked at. They're going to increase
the size of the people to bring in people who
have different challenges and see if they can actually diagnose
different things just by the power of your name or brains.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
I've probably discovered a few breathing disorders in there as well.

Speaker 15 (01:06:56):
But it's also different how it connects to your brain.
And so that's why things like controlled breathing really help
to reset your mind in your brain and really can
help to help you with mood and other things. And
we sort of know that, but I think some of
us don't really believe it. But if you do do
some of those good breathing exercises, and this study shows
you that it can do a lot, and breathing is
related to your brain and how your mood.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Is, where can we find that study? Michelle Current biology brilliant.
Thank you so much. We'll catch up next week. We're
going to get a rap of field days up next
and a lovely LAMB shoulder number as well from Mike
vender Elson. It's twenty to eleven.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
The Sunday Session Full Show podcast on iHeartRadio powered by
News Talks IBI.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Thank you for your text, TB. She texts to say,
we watched Sila's Last Night, excellent documentary. What are life?
Thank you for your text, Mike. Then elsend, good morning,
good morning, our resident chief. That you've been at field
Days for the last few days. How was it, How
was the vibe?

Speaker 20 (01:07:58):
It was actually really it was wet, but it's always wet.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
But meet expectations then yep.

Speaker 13 (01:08:06):
Good.

Speaker 20 (01:08:06):
That's that you prepare for it, you know it's coming.
But it was really good. I'm not sure what the
numbers were, but from what I saw, it seemed pretty
pretty busy, particularly on Friday.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
And everyone was pretty upbeat.

Speaker 20 (01:08:19):
Everyone was happy and and people were buying fires. So
all in all, it was a great result.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Fantastic. Were you doing. Were you cooking as well?

Speaker 8 (01:08:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 20 (01:08:29):
Because I was on the I was on the inglewe
I wasn't stand, but I'm also in an ambassador for FMG,
so I was kind of split between us stands.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
Running through the mud to get from one to the other. Yeah,
but everything I've heard is that it did feel like
everyone was a lot more positive than in previous years,
which is good to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 20 (01:08:48):
And looking like you don't have a lot of time
to look around, but I ran around and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Had quick work a few things, and the food tent.

Speaker 20 (01:08:55):
There's a there's a kind of a big area where
you go to for the food providers called the called
the pantry.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
You could hardly walk in there.

Speaker 20 (01:09:02):
It was extraoriny. So interesting food is definitely back, So
that's great.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
You've got a little tremula number for us today along
with a lamb's shoulder.

Speaker 20 (01:09:12):
Delicious that I was actually cooking this during the week,
and I did this with pork bealley, so I made
up to smaller and then I marinated the pork bellley
and then I rotisseriad it over the fire and it
was delicious, I think, and potentially sold a few fires
this recipe, so I thought i'd share it today. And
it uses a load of cry and it uses a
load of passing. It uses a load of mint, which

(01:09:33):
has all grown really well at the moment with all
this wheet weather. But it also uses a lot of citrus.
So it uses my favorite fruit which I can't do
without out of the orchard is the lemon. So citrus
is coming on now. You can see mandarins are starting
to pop up in the zoop markets. So yes, make
up this recipe, make it in bulk, and then you

(01:09:54):
can just divvy it down or break it down in
small jars which you can then store in the fridge.
This will stay good for you know, it will stay
good for a month in the fridge. Or you can
even freeze it down in like ice cream trays or
small kind of glad brag leg like little sachets and
little bags. Freeze it down and there an every time
you want to use it, just defross it and it
works just as well. So this recipe will make about

(01:10:17):
a liter more probably about half a liter of shamala,
which would be more than enough to coat a decent
boned and rolled lamb shoulder. So go down to your
butcher buy a bone and rolled lamb shoulder, or even
just a boned out shoulder. It doesn't need to be
rolled at all. To make the shmala up into a blender.
Goes the all important lemons. So I've got the juice

(01:10:37):
of two big lemons. One onion that's been peeled and
dice chucked, that in ten cloths of garlic chuck doozen
tablespoon of ground criander, ground cooman, and ground or garay masala.
So you've got cryander, cooman, garray masala. Two teaspoons of turmeric,
a teaspoon of chili powder, a teaspoon of paprika, and
then all important coriander. So a big decent cupful of

(01:11:00):
fresh corander, fresh parsi, and then the optional mint if
you want that, but I'll definitely go down that road.
Blitz the whole lord up with two tablespoons of oil
and a little bit of salt, and that is your
shimuala mix done. And because you've got all that acid
in there, put that into a bag along with your
your lamb shoulder. And what it will do is that
acid will get into your lamb and just tenderize it,

(01:11:23):
flavor it. So the longer you can leave it on
that marinaba or in that shimola, the better the end result.
I will put it into a bag, Chuck your lamb
in there, make sure it's nice and tight, put it
in the fridge. Leave it in there overnight. Next day,
turn your oven up, crank it to two hundred and
twenty degrees. Put an oven tray in there. When you're
ready to go, pull your oven tray out and be
nice and hot. A few tablespoons of oil in there.

(01:11:45):
Pop in your lamb. Be careful it is going to
be hot, it's going to smell, it's going to bring
back a lot of chili vapor. So have your extraction on.
Turn it on one side for a couple of minutes,
turn it over on to the other side for a
couple of minutes, and then back into the oven, and
I'll turn the oven down to one point fifty. Leave
it in there for sixty minutes, and after six minutes
you should be good to go and let it rest.

Speaker 5 (01:12:06):
All.

Speaker 20 (01:12:06):
Let it rest as long as you can twenty thirty minutes,
just lightly covered to the side before you go to
serve it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Sounds amazing, Mike, Thank you so much. You'll be able
to find that recipe good from scratch dot co dot
in z, or head to newstalk zb dot co dot
in z forward slash Sunday. We will get that up
for you throughout the morning twelve to eleven.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
There's no better way to start your Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
It's the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin and Wiggles for
the best selection of great breaths use talks v.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
Okay. Have you heard of obesigens. We are going to
tell you all about obesigens. Joining me now to talk
wellness is Aeron O'Hara, Good morning, Good morning. What are obesigens?

Speaker 21 (01:12:50):
Obesogens are chemicals that disrupts the normal balance within the body,
and they promote fat cell formation as well as lipid accumulation,
so basically making us get fatter. And that's not just
like calories and calories out and exercising what we'reading, but
actually it's changing the way the endocrime system or your
hormone system is working, which is affecting your way and

(01:13:13):
when you do eat how it stores body fat.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
Okay. So like when you had a kid, you were told,
well you have to have a plastic cut without BPAs
and things like that. Is that what we're talking about, absolutely, Okay.

Speaker 21 (01:13:25):
So that's one type of abasage. And so the different
types of chemicals, A lot of it does come from
things like plastics, also palate, herbicides, pesticides, your nonstick cock
wears a big one for putting in more chemicals into
your food, food additives, and even sometimes pharmaceutical drugs, not
so much the drug itself, but sometimes all the additives

(01:13:46):
that they add and to make the tablets. So there's
numerous things ways we get these different chemicals into our
body that disrupt the way the body functions, and unfortunately
they're actually unavoidable, like we're all exposed to them just
living in this world. You're exposed to them every single day.
And I think it's more about how we manage that

(01:14:06):
and how we kind of reduce our exposure, because if
we're exposed to too many, like spraying perfume and using
different skincare, that's putting more chemicals on our skin. Also
the foods that we eat, and maybe we've put something
in the microwave with a bit of glad wrap on.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
There's just like.

Speaker 21 (01:14:21):
Numerous levels of different ways we're getting those different chemicals
in throughout the entire day. So I think it's more
about cutting down your exposure and being aware that these
things do affect how the body functions, and not just
fat formation, but also other functions within the body, so
even just hormone disruption in general. And so the best

(01:14:42):
way you can manage it is minimize your exposure. Is
looking at maybe swapping out some of your produce for
organic or maybe even grow your own vegetables to try
and reduce some of the exposure. There where possible choose
a more natural product rather than a chemical product. And
the best way to kind of pick up what's in

(01:15:03):
it is read the packaging. Most things have labeled on it.
You can start looking at what to look for, and
there's amazing different websites that you can look for of
what chemicals are endocrine disrupting chemicals and what to avoid,
and you can and there's actually some great apps out
there that you can actually scan in the barcode and

(01:15:24):
lock up what sort of chemicals are in different products,
so you can find those even on most cell phones.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
So, as you said, we can't remove this entirely, excuse me,
from our lives, but actually if you make an effort
to remove some of.

Speaker 21 (01:15:36):
It doesn't make a difference, huge difference, Okay, Yeah, Because
the thing is that as time's passing and we're getting
more and more in this modern life, we're actually getting
more and more exposure and obesity rates are rising and
use it can be what we're doing eating wise and exercise,
but this is another huge factor and there's more and
more research coming out around this and the effect that

(01:15:58):
the chemical overload is having on our bodies. And so
the best way we can manage that is look at
reducing expos and it's all those little things you do.
So even looking at packagings. So if you're buying food,
if you can try and reduce you know, buying tins
that have BPA lining or plastic lining within them or
packaging on the outside, so where we can maybe go

(01:16:20):
into bulk food sort of company and getting that into jars,
reducing all the plastics there. Also maybe not touching receipts.
Receipts so I actually got plastic layer on them. So
if you're buying some shopping, just be like, no receipt
thanks no, Well I do ask.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
These days, don't they thank you so much? Aeron fascinating stuff.
It is a five to.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
Eleven The Sunday Session full show podcast on iHeartRadio, powered
by News Talks at b.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
Righty Ho. This is a little bit of music here
from the Who. Roger Daltrey was among the notable figures
recognized by King Charles. He became Sir Roger this week.
So we're going to play a little bit of the
Who for you to end the app. Come up next
hour though, can we ICEEU specialist trainee I or Popovich.

(01:17:11):
She's going to join us to talk about our failing
health system and the reality of being a doctor in
our hospitals. He's written a book, it's called A Dim Prognosis,
and he he doesn't hold back. He reveals, you know,
what he think is going wrong and how we fix it.
So he is going to be with us next year.
On Newstork said the back shortly.

Speaker 13 (01:17:48):
Cry it's all.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
It's Sunday. You know what that means.

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
It's the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin and Whitkle. This
for the best selection of Great Reads, News Talk, sedb.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
It is seven past eleven. Coming up this hour, Mecon
joins us live from Chicago. Pioney on the Super Rugby
We have our finalists and Joan has been reading the
latest from Taylor Jenkins read the Sunday Session. A Tale
All Expose from within our Health System is hitting bookshops
this week. Written by Auckland based ICU doctor doctor Evil Popovich.

(01:18:40):
The book shares his journey from med schools through the
public health system. He talks of bullying, funding and staffing shortfalls,
through the inadequate through to the inequities between private and
public health. It's incredibly honest and brave, and I'm sure
it's about to ruffle a few feathers within Health New Zealand,
Dr Evil Popovitch joins me, Now, good morning morning. Tell

(01:19:03):
me why did you become a doctor and where are
you at in your training?

Speaker 22 (01:19:08):
So I am. I graduated med school about ten years ago,
and I am training in intensive care and I'm right
at the end of my training. So in about two
months time, I'll qualify as a specialist and be fully
done with training. And I became a doctor. It was
kind of a weird I kind of kind of just
drifted into it.

Speaker 11 (01:19:23):
Really.

Speaker 22 (01:19:23):
I was at the end of high school. I didn't
really know what I wanted to do. I was good
at science, I was kind of okay talking to people,
and my parents said maybe medicine might be a good career.
So kin I said, okay, I'll give it a go.
I went into it and I kind of didn't really
have any idea what I was in for.

Speaker 3 (01:19:37):
Why did you write this book?

Speaker 22 (01:19:38):
It really started off as just more of a personal adventure,
just to do some writing. I've always been a kin writer,
and I wanted to have something to pass my time
into a bit of a kind of journaling almost and
I got to the point where I'd written in about
twenty thousand words about different stories along the way of
my career. I thought it's a shame to just to
kind of let the sit and have nobody read it.
And around the same time that I started writing this,
there was a lot of stuff going on in the

(01:20:00):
media about things going wrong with the healthcare system, people
waiting long time to see doctors, people dying in waiting
rooms in the d I'd reflected on the ten years
that I've been in medicine, how much things have changed
just since the start in terms of the underresourcing and overcrowding,
And I looked ten years ahead and I thought, one
ten years things are just going to be one hundred
times worse. So I wanted to really actually try and
have the public have some kind of idea, because we

(01:20:21):
talk a lot in the media about things underresource, underfunded,
but I think it's hard for people to get a
really clear idea of what that really means and what
that looks like on the ground. So I wanted to
give that idea to people and say, hey, this is
a problem that we need to address if we want
to have any kind of system in ten years, that's
going to be tenable.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
This is a pretty brave, ballsy thing to write this
very honest book.

Speaker 22 (01:20:39):
Yeah, it is a little bit. I kind of got
to the point where as I said, I wrote the
twenty thousand words, I submitted it to my publishers, and
I know how to finish it off in a short
amount of time, and balls rolling and along the way,
I thought of, I don't I don't know what the
reaction will be like from colleagues and from my employers,
but I kind of was committed, and I thought, I
just don't think. I just have to say what I
have to say.

Speaker 3 (01:20:58):
Oh, look at what I found really interesting is that
I've heard, you know, a lot of the issues that
you talk about. I've heard a lot of other doctors
and people in the people within your feel to talk
about these things. To me, I just feel like you've
brought everything together and explained it really well to us,
that we've sort of their something. Do you think of
how you've sort of described the state of the health

(01:21:19):
system at the moment.

Speaker 22 (01:21:21):
It's good to hear that, because it's good to know
that other people are saying the same things i'm and
I'm not just some random extreme person.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
Yeah, yeah, So what is wrong with the culture and
health these days?

Speaker 22 (01:21:32):
Well, I think in the book I split it into
kind of three main issues. I think the first one,
which occupies a lot of the book, is just the
amount of investment that needs to happen into the system
to have enough to do what we need to do
for patients. I think there's an element just the debate
about are we funding the system enough and or is
it just a case of we're inefficient with what we have.
I'm trying to make the point now we need a
lot more funding. We're not keeping up with population growth,

(01:21:52):
not keeping up with the aging population and the demands.
And then I think there's when we talk about where
to invest that money. There's a lot of proposed, a
lot of things that are suggested. For example, let's build
another medical school, let's train more let's train more doctors.
There's kind of some issues with that, and there's some
of some of the simple solutions are not necessarily solutions
that might that might work.

Speaker 3 (01:22:10):
Yes, I think you called the idea of the Waikato
Medical School like a fart in the wind. I thought,
have I got that right?

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
I did?

Speaker 4 (01:22:16):
Do?

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
Yeah, you did Hey, let's talk about a little A
few of the things that you do bring out the
shortage of doctors. How do we sort the shortage of doctors?
Where are we short at the moment?

Speaker 22 (01:22:27):
So where we're shortened is we know we're short of
specialists of every type of specialty. I think about twenty
percent was the figure that I had. What we're not
short of is the number of doctors graduating medical school.
When I graduated, we had more doctors graduating than there
were jobs with them. And that's been the case, I think,
long before and ever since. And what happens is we
have there's a limitation. There's like a bottleneck in the

(01:22:48):
amount of because once you graduate medical school, you go
down a training pathway to train in the specialty you
want to do. To do that, you have to be
given a training spot, training position, and so there's a
bottleneck in the amount of training positions that allowing people
to progress through the system and become specialists at the end.
And so there's this real bottleneck happening. And then a
lot of the doctors not able to acquire training positions

(01:23:08):
will go overseas. And that's further made worse by the
fact that things in Australia are much more attractive than
they are here.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
And we should make it clear who decides how many
people get to train in specialties.

Speaker 22 (01:23:19):
So it's a bit of a it's a bit of
a muddy situation. It's not really clear to most people,
and I don't know specifically. What I do know is
it's determined both by the amount of government funded training
positions yep. And also each specialty has like their college
which works across Australia and New Zealand, and so the
college decides at the end of the day how the
amount of training positions there are. It's also influenced by

(01:23:41):
government fundings. So both of those are an issue, and
I don't really know exactly who makes the.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
Fundation how it all happens. So potentially we could fund
more people to move through into those specialties faster here
in New Zealand and potentially stay here in New Zealand.
That's right, Okay, all right, then let's talk about the
need for better community services because I think there were
a couple of things that really fascinated me in the book,
and that is the number of people who are not
who are in hospital because there is nowhere else for

(01:24:09):
them to go. We really need to be providing more
community beds for people who have recovered and are ready
to move but can't return home and we can't find
care for them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 22 (01:24:21):
I think that's a really bigger shoon. I had photo
kind of a whole chapter to that. It's it's something
that surprised me from the minute I stepped foot in
the hospital as medical student and is still to this stand.
I think the situation is getting worse all the time.
It's a lot of patients who are they come in
to hospital because they've had a fall. They can't return home.
They need to leave hospital and go to a nursing
home or a private hospital or some kind of strict

(01:24:41):
helper of care they need at home, but there's just
such limited spaces and availability of that, and not really
a streamline process to get them there. They end up
being stuck in hospital for weeks, sometimes even months. They
get sick because there's other sick patients in hospital, infections,
they pick up infections.

Speaker 3 (01:24:55):
Yeah, I mean you kind of make a joke about
it in the book. I mean, what was the percentage
of people sometimes you know, who are getting infections from
being in hospital.

Speaker 22 (01:25:02):
Yeah, I mean that was I think the line I
used in the book. I was being slightly facetious, but
I think I was based on this one. So I
had this one round that I did, and I saw
these patchess like that said, one percent of my wardrounds
lon in hospital because they're sick, other than the ones
who are sick because we've made them sick because they've
picked up infections from other people.

Speaker 3 (01:25:18):
Let's talk about the private public balance as well. How
do we balance the public and private system to benefit
New Zealanders.

Speaker 22 (01:25:25):
Yeah, that's a really hard question. I think there's a
lot of answers to that. I think the main thing
to realize when you talk about balancing them is they're
they're not kind of different systems that exist in isolation.
The same doctors are work in private are the same
doctors who work in public, by and large, And the
only reason that private provides a better service to people
is because it's so exclusive, because it's expensive and you
need insurance. And so I refer it to in the

(01:25:46):
book as a zero sum game. So any stuff that
you put into one system takes away from the other.
So I don't have any a great solution I can
tell you right, no, this is the solution. But I
think that's something we need to keep in mind when
we talk about that public private.

Speaker 3 (01:25:56):
I think a lot of people will be surprised though, that,
you know, you have a consultant, a specialist who's working
in the public sector, who you know, maybe on a
day when they're supposed to be on call, is actually
also working in their private practice, so they're not actually
really available to the public service which is currently paying
them to be available.

Speaker 22 (01:26:16):
Yep, exactly. There's I mean it's not everybody, but there
is definitely a repeated case of people double dipping and
they're supposed to be on call and public as you say,
but they're off in their private clinics. So they're kind
of available by fund but not really because you ring
up and they say, I'll just call me back after
my clinicalist is done later this morning.

Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Do you regret not going into a specialty were you
buy you could be working in private and public a
little bit more evil?

Speaker 22 (01:26:37):
Not really, just to clarify for this, so ice intensive
care doesn't have any kind of real opportunities for private
I don't think. So I chose what I wanted to
do best and what interested in me. And either way,
where if you work in public private, you will still
make a comfortable linking.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
You're okay, Hey, I'd just like to touch on the
start of the book. Your first ship shift at a
new hospital was the day of forkari White Island, which
was just it's a really harrowing read. Did this experience
stare you into ICU that you know, confirm that this
is where you wanted to.

Speaker 22 (01:27:07):
Be At that point, I'd already was it. Let's say
it was twenty nineteen, so I'd already been intensifica training
for three years at that point, so it was already
kind of committed. I think it was an experience I reflect.

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
On a lot.

Speaker 22 (01:27:20):
I've reflected on a lot from that point, and I
think you build really the people you work with in
that sinus setting, you build really close relationships with Does
the job.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
Take a toll on you? And I don't just mean
having to deal with days like that, but also the
other thing you do talk a lot about is the
toxic environment. And this isn't across the board, It's not
everybody who works in hospitals, but you know, there's definitely
an issue with bullying and humiliation as a form of training,
isn't there?

Speaker 22 (01:27:48):
Yeah? I think yeah. I mean one of the chapters
I described in the book, it was kind of a
medical student and I turned up to the operating room
my first day of my surgery rotation with my friend
who's of Asian descent, and this particular professor likes to
referrad all Asian students as either Bill or Bob. And
then he asked my tells my friend to go back
to the take of my shop. I think that kind
of stuff. I think the thing that takes a toll
is seeing there's always going to be individuals like that

(01:28:09):
in the system. What makes it frustrating is that they're
hard to get rid of because the rest of us
around them kind of just saying, well, that's just there more.
It's just too hard to make an effort to try
and kind of speak up about this. So that's the
thing that takes a toll of seeing the people around
going I We'll just leave the slide, because you know,
I've worked with this person for ten years and I'm
just it's always been like that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
It's interesting because you note a lot of the behavior
and you have to deal with some pretty difficult people
as well throughout your career and the stories that you
tell in this book. But you also catch yourself, you know,
when you maybe don't don't speak to a nurse well,
or don't have the patience to deal with something, you know.
So it's obviously you're obviously really quite conscious that. I mean,
if we don't you know, you've got to make an

(01:28:47):
effort to kind of break this cycle, don't we. Well,
this is just the way doctors act.

Speaker 22 (01:28:52):
Yeah, I think everybody has a three shold yeah, where
it stress just gets too much and they turn into
a bit of a jerk. But I think would you
still be self conscious about those things? And in our
colleagues as well.

Speaker 3 (01:29:03):
You mentioned that you don't know how your colleagues are
going to receive this book. Are you're a bit nervous
about it.

Speaker 22 (01:29:09):
I'm a little bit nervous. I think there's a I
held off telling you near my colleagues at the moment
until about a few weeks ago, I said, I'm publishing
a book. Here here's the link. I think most people
that I've talked to are kind of excited, and they've
they've bought it, and they're eager to read it, and
I think mostly the reaction will be positive, I hope.
But you know, there's some of the things that I
talk about you never really know how they're going to

(01:29:30):
be received or you know, even I've worked in medicine
for ten years, but ten years in the grand scheme
of things is there's not a long time. There's people
who've been in there for twenty thirty who know a
lot more than I do, and so there's a sense
of you know, this person people looking thing, well, who's
this guy who's not been there that long talking about
these things? Who are you to talk on behalf of us?

Speaker 3 (01:29:46):
So you're going to be fully qualified in August. Where
is your future? Is it in the public health system
here in New Zealand?

Speaker 22 (01:29:52):
Yes, so I'm in August. Once I qualify, I'm going
overseas for a year to the UK, which is a
pretty normal thing to do once you finished, to get
a bit more experience.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
There's not a fellowship, is it. It's a fellowship that
is a fellowship, Okay, cool, yep.

Speaker 22 (01:30:04):
And then I'll come back after that and yeah, my
future in the public system here an intensive care somewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:30:09):
And I hope that if someone did take offense would
have died down by the time you get back.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
That's right.

Speaker 22 (01:30:14):
It might be the perfect time to to plan my travels.

Speaker 3 (01:30:19):
Evil really appreciate it. The book is really revealing. I
appreciate your honesty. And also for the rest of us
who don't quite really understand what it's like to work
day and day out, night and day in a hospital,
really appreciate the book. Thank you so much.

Speaker 22 (01:30:33):
I thinks a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
That was intensive care. Doctor Ivor Popovich his book A
Dim Prognosis is in stores this Tuesday. We're just gonna
We're going to continue talking a little bit about this
private versus public health and our panel which is next
here on news talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (01:30:49):
Go a cover.

Speaker 1 (01:30:50):
It's the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudgin and Wikeles for
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Speaker 1 (01:32:01):
All the highs and lows talking the big issues of
the week in the panel on the Sunday session.

Speaker 3 (01:32:07):
Joining me on the panel today, we have journalists and
editor Joe mccarell.

Speaker 23 (01:32:10):
Good morning, Joe, Good morning, Franchesca.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
And New Zealand Herald's senior writer Simon Wilson.

Speaker 11 (01:32:16):
Good morning, Simon, Hi, Francesca, Hi Joe.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
Good to have you both here. Okay, I was just
talking to doctor Evor Popovich and he was talking about
the difficulties of getting the balance right between private and
public healthcare in New Zealand. Earlier in the show, I
had the Health Minister Simeon Brown on the show where
we're talking about the fact that the government has completed
nine six hundred and ninety six extra elective surgeries, which
is putting them on track to reach its target at

(01:32:41):
the end of June. I said to him, Hey, look,
is this an approach that you were going to continue using?

Speaker 7 (01:32:48):
And this is what he said, This is something that
needs to continue to happen so that we can continue
to reduce the number of people waiting for those surgeries,
the waitless balloon over the last six years. That's unacceptable
for patients and I'm committed to continuing to use both
the public and private system to make sure we reduced
that and ensure patients get seen in a timely manner.

Speaker 3 (01:33:10):
So, Simon, is this the way forward? Is this the
way we're going to keep on top of our waitlists.

Speaker 11 (01:33:14):
Well, I've had some experience of this. I've had a
couple of procedures started off in the public system referred
to the private system. I have to say that it
was fabulous in the sense that the care was very good,
and the facilities of the private system that I was
in were clearly newer and much much swankier than in

(01:33:39):
the public system. So it does work. The Minister's quite
right that they can get more surgeries done, they can
get more procedures done, and those people who are involved,
who are put through that process benefit enormously. If you're
waiting and there's no end to it, that's a great benefit.
But there are some obvious problems. One of them is

(01:34:00):
that each one of these procedures must be more expensive
than it would be in the public system. In other words,
this is the very addition of very definition of throwing
money at the problem, which is something that a fiscally
responsible government ought to be thinking hard about whether it's
the right solution. Bilstering our public system over time should
be more cost efficient than simply sending out the work.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
To the private I suppose it depends onon on what
kind of deal they're making with these private providers, doesn't it.
I mean, we don't know the details there.

Speaker 11 (01:34:31):
Well, the private providers overheads are going to be higher
because they are because of all the costs associated with
the higher wrap around quality care that you get in
the private sector.

Speaker 3 (01:34:45):
Possibly, Joe, your thoughts, Do you have any concerns. I
know that some you know, clinicians are really concerned that
if we're not doing enough surgeries in the public sector,
you know, we are not training doctors to get them
to the standard that we need them to be at.

Speaker 23 (01:35:00):
Yes, I have real concerns. I mean, I do not
think healthcare. I hope there should be a non profit
serve a public health care and the idea that as
Simon just said, that if this money is going into
private healthcare, it's an individual solution, but it doesn't deal
with a systemic problem. I mean, one of my brothers
in law is waiting for hip replacement right now, and

(01:35:22):
I would love for him to have the operation tomorrow,
you know, I would love that.

Speaker 5 (01:35:26):
But if that.

Speaker 23 (01:35:27):
Money is going into the private sector, it ends up
in the hands of equity firms and investors, and it
doesn't go into building improving health care for everyone. And
as your guest doctor Popitz just said, Francisca, I mean
what the system needs is investment.

Speaker 3 (01:35:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've sort of slightly torn because
if you've been waiting, you know, as you mentioned Simon,
if you've been on a waiting list and you need
that need done, you need that HEP done, you need
that Care Act done, and we're whipping through them. Then
I just think that's brilliant. I don't think anyone cares
where it gets done. They're just like, I need it done.
And so there's that initial, that immediate kind of yes,

(01:36:07):
this is fantastic. But I suppose, I'd suppose my concern is,
so what are we going to commit You know, every
two years, we're going to go, oh, okay, right, we've
got three months, let's throw it out back out to
private and try and catch up again. It doesn't feel
like a sustainable solution.

Speaker 11 (01:36:21):
I completely agree with you. I, having been on the
end of you get the letter and it says we're
going to be able to see you in six to
eight months, and then a week later you get a
phone call saying we're the private provider that has been
had this work outsource to us and we can see
you next week. That is a fantastic phone call to
CAT And of course it's good for those patients now,
you know, so there's no argument there. But the larger

(01:36:44):
question of the cost, the larger question of training, the
larger question of what does this mean for the ongoing
viability of the public health system is a really serious one.
And governments can't simply be looking at waiting this. They
have to look at the whole system.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Yeah, and look, it's not even just the elective I mean,
my partner had acute surgery. He had an injury which
had to be an accident and he had to have
a bite biceps, someone back onto a bone kind of thing,
and it had to be done within a couple of weeks,
and the public service couldn't do it. They put him
out to private and he was like, I don't care.
We just got to get the sorted I've got. I've

(01:37:22):
got a time frame here. But that's that wasn't even
elective surgery. So, you know, no, pretty interesting stuff. It'll
be interesting to see how things proceed. But look, if
you are on a list, I hope they get to
your hope, like Simon, you get that called really quickly. Hey, guys,
let's talk about alcohol. There was some comments made at
a Hospitality New Zealand conference that maybe actually we should

(01:37:43):
be putting price controls on alcohols sold at off license
stores so that we can boost hospitality and we can
stop people sitting at home and drinking too much. Is
this a solution, do you think, Joe?

Speaker 23 (01:37:55):
Well, you know, price controls they're one of those sticky
solutions to suggest because if you're doing okay, you're not
going to notice them much at all, and if you're
really struggling, they represent a significant barrier. But I mean,
I think that point made by the owner of the
Cook and Hamilton East. I think very good pub right
near where my parents live than there many times. But

(01:38:15):
you know, I mean we have some perverse outcomes where
the alcohol and an on license premise ends up very expensive.
And I do think most of the harm is not
people drinking on an unlicensed premise where they're socializing, they're
seeing friends, there's supervision, there's security. I think it's people
drinking at home. So yeah, I see some advantages to

(01:38:38):
disincentivizing through price.

Speaker 3 (01:38:41):
I mean, Simon and I get it that we have
a problem with alcohol and some people need to drink
less alcohol and it is cheap to do it at home,
but we shouldn't be doing it just so that hospital's
more affordable. The booth at a restaurant is so expensive
and such a big markup. Maybe if they want more
people to go to hospital, they should just love the

(01:39:01):
prices a little bit.

Speaker 11 (01:39:02):
Look, well, I don't want to argue that for whole
because I know hospital is a very marginal industry, and
you know, it's not like people many people in that
sector are making a lot of money. But you're absolutely right.
It costs a lot more to drink in a restaurant
than it does at home. And what we're really talking

(01:39:23):
about here, we're talking about poor young people's students. We're
talking about a whole lot of other people who were saying, actually, no,
we don't think you should be drinking on Friday night
in your flat or going to a party with booze
that you've brought yourself and think that's a bad thing,
go and do it in a restaurant. That's a nonsensical argument.
That is simply not what's going to happen. So I'm

(01:39:46):
not really convinced that it's being approached in the right
way here.

Speaker 3 (01:39:50):
No, you raise a really good point there. Yeah, I've
got a teenager at university who's cut back on the
drinking because they can't afford it, Simon, which.

Speaker 11 (01:39:57):
Is absolutely one day your teenager will be old enough
and with a job enough paying enough to be able
to eat perhaps regularly or semi regularly or occasionally in restaurants,
but it's not likely to be now.

Speaker 4 (01:40:12):
No, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:40:13):
Both very much, Simon Wilson and Joe Mcarell for joining
me today on the panel. It is twenty eight to
twelve Newstalks at B.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
It's the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin on News Talks
at B.

Speaker 3 (01:40:29):
Coming up at midday is Jason Pine with Weekend Sport
and he joins me. Now, Hello, Hello, Can I just
start very quickly with what happened to Liam Lawson this
morning in the Canadian Grand Prix. I don't know if
you're watching it yesday, watching the practice and we'll go
ooh top ten for both races and I'm just nineteenth
fastest this morning.

Speaker 24 (01:40:47):
Yeah, it's disappointing for Liam. He has been promoted one
place on the grid. Yuki Sonoda has been given a
grid penalty. But yeah, after being so good in practice yesterday,
we were thinking, man, this could be a top ten
qualification to start eighteenth that'll be really disappointing for him.
I see he's blame the lack of a build lap

(01:41:09):
during his final run for the failure to progress, but
he hasn't really been able to articulate why it all.
I'm not going to say fell apart, but why he
couldn't do better in qualifying. Yeah, just I don't know
if we all want Liam to do well, right, we
all want him to do well, but it seems like
every race there's just something that happens and it just

(01:41:33):
gets them bit frustrating. I'm sure it is.

Speaker 3 (01:41:35):
As you'd say to me, party, this is sport, ups
and downs. It's a roller coaster. So there we go.
I'll keep that in the back of my mind. Hey,
we have our Super Rugby finalists.

Speaker 24 (01:41:45):
Yeah, I think we've got the two best teams in
the final. You look at the regular season, they both
had very good records eleven wins from their fourteen games.
The only blip really for the Chiefs was that lost
of the Blues last weekend, which means that they will
travel to christ Church, where as we also know no
one has won. No one's gone to christ Church for

(01:42:05):
a finals match and Super Rugby since the competition started
in nineteen ninety six and won that game. It's an
extraordinary record thirty one straight finals wins for the Crusaders.
But I feel Francesca, but if anybody's going to do yeah,
if anybody's going to do it, Francisca, it's the Chiefs.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):
I think too. I think they were clinical last night,
they were focused and they knew what they were doing.

Speaker 24 (01:42:29):
Yeah. And Damien McKenzie another masterclass from him off the
tee and just in a general player, absolutely remarkable tri
saving tackle in the second half as well. So I
wonder whether he's the key man next week. Rivers Raehan
is a good player, but he's not Damien McKenzie, So
if the Chiefs can give him a decent platform in
christ Church next Saturday night, then who knows. Having said

(01:42:52):
all of that, you know the Crusaders know how to
win games, don't they a complete blip for them, So look,
I think it's the final most people wanted. Obviously we'd
like our own teams to be in there, but like
the two best teams.

Speaker 4 (01:43:07):
Are in the spot.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
Do you felt like it could be a possibility on
Friday night for the first half, to be honest, with
you with the Blues, you know, right, I.

Speaker 4 (01:43:16):
Know I did.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
I thought, well, no I did, I thought at the
end or I'm a dreaming pony.

Speaker 24 (01:43:21):
No, not at all, not at all. And you look
back a week and the Blues did you know, batter
away and batter away and they did get that try
that won them the game over the Chiefs. I thought
the same, you know, they were what forty phases at
the end, they could have crashed over, scored a try
close to the posts. You know, k goes over and
we're into extra time and it's maybe a different conversation,
but wash up of it all is there are two

(01:43:42):
teams left standing and we look forward to seeing how
their weaker plays out and how next Saturday Night plays out.

Speaker 3 (01:43:49):
And golf, we've got the US Open on at the moment.

Speaker 24 (01:43:53):
Round three today, utterly brutal course this at Oakmont. Ryan
Fox has shot a third round three over, so he's
eight over for the tournament. That sounds, you know, quite bad,
but you know, there's there's got guys. You know, Rory
McIlroy's ten over, for example, he's tied for fortieth Rind Fox.
Only three golfers are under par for the tournament. That's

(01:44:15):
one hundred and fifty six who started just three are
under par. You know this tournament could be won by
a score over par or even pars. So yeah, it's brutal.
We'll have a look at that as well. We'll cover
them off after midday. I want to try and have
a bit of a think tank around provincial rugby as well.
There's been news this week that it looks as though

(01:44:35):
NPC or some of it's going to be on free
to wear television from next year on. It's but it
also I think raises the question of what is the
NPC four, What are provincial unions actually meant to be doing?
Are they supposed to be providing high performance environments or
actually are they supposed to be looking after the huge
number of grassroots participants. So yeah, we have a bit

(01:44:57):
of yat about provincial rugby.

Speaker 3 (01:44:58):
Do you think going free to air people will watch
it like that?

Speaker 10 (01:45:01):
Well?

Speaker 24 (01:45:01):
I hope so, I think more likely than if it's not.
But I again, I just think it has to be reimagined.
We can't be playing provincial rugby and at Aden Park
or sky Stadium with a thousand people turning up in
those big Kavanish stadiums. We've got to be playing games
in the during the day and smaller places and make
it that intimate experience again. So that's just one idea anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:45:21):
Oh love it, Jason Pine, Thank you very much for
your time. Jason's going to be back with you at
Jason's going to be paying back with you at mid
day to day. It is twenty to twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:45:32):
For Sunday Session full show podcast on iHeartRadio powered by
News Talks ATB Travel with Wendy wu Tours Where the
World Is Yours book?

Speaker 3 (01:45:42):
Now right, there's a lot going on in the US
this weekend. Of course, you've probably heard in the news
that a state representative and her husband were killed in Minnesota,
and another Democratic state lawmaker and his wife was shot.
And of course the No King's movement is planning demonstrations
in more than fifteen hundred cities in towns across the
US to oppose the Trump administration. That No King's protest

(01:46:05):
in Minnesota. They've asked them to hold that off because
it does appear that these assassinations were politically motivated, which
is concerning people. And then of course in Washington, DC,
we have the military parade to mark the two hundred
and fiftieth anniversary of the US Army. So there's a
lot going on. We sent our travel correspondent to Chicago,

(01:46:28):
which where she walked straight into the protests. Joining me
now is Megan Singleton, blogger at large dot com. Good morning.

Speaker 25 (01:46:36):
Well, I didn't mean to good morning, right.

Speaker 8 (01:46:40):
My plan was just.

Speaker 25 (01:46:42):
To go shopping down Michigan Avenue and I noticed so
many police and Corden Dolph streets, and so I thought,
what's going on? She stopped some people with signs and
they were anti Trump signs and stuff. Anyway, yes, turns
out that then I went into the CBS store to
stock up on the good drugs, which by the way,
is a whole nother story, and came out, walked straight

(01:47:04):
into ten thousand protesters, all marching along quite peacefully, all protesting,
you know, the No Kings movement. And do you know,
of course, it's Trump's birthday today, so this military parade
in DC just is a bit unluckily timely or maybe
deliberately his birthday and the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary

(01:47:25):
and becomes a military parade in DC. So there's a
lot of angst but there's also a lot of calm.
I mean, you know, I got in through Houston, no problem.
I use the MPC app. We've spoken about that before.
That's available to Kiwis to just download and sort of
fast track our you know, getting through customs. So that

(01:47:48):
was easy pas and then got into the hotel and
it was all fine. People were graduating, So the hotel
lobby was full of excited graduates this morning. And then
they get out on the streets and I'm shopping, you know,
I'm going into Nordstream as you do. And then next
minute all this is happening. So it's really a juxtaposition.
Right now, I've been this is my third trip to

(01:48:09):
the US this year, and this is the first time
even though we've been to DC that you know, I've
come up against anything that resembles discomfort in this country.

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
I mean, a lot of people are a little bit
concerned about the process of getting into America at the moment,
but obviously pretty straightforward.

Speaker 25 (01:48:28):
I think, you know, the main thing it's always been
like this.

Speaker 17 (01:48:30):
You've got to just have your paperwork right.

Speaker 25 (01:48:32):
So if you've got an ESTA, which means that's la
valid for two years of entry, as a visitor, you've
got an onward ticket. That's sometimes what people haven't had.
They make the news they you know, got turned around,
but they didn't have an onward ticket. Or you need
a visa if you're here for working. Get all that
right and you just whistle straight through and it is easy.

(01:48:54):
And unfortunately there has been you know, those extra stories
that have come out about people being detained, but actually
when you look at the stats, it's no higher than normal,
so it's actually nothing to really be consumed.

Speaker 14 (01:49:07):
Yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (01:49:09):
I know you've only been in Chicago for twenty four hours,
but tell me about Chicago.

Speaker 25 (01:49:13):
Oh, I love the city. Well, it started gloomy. June
gloom is a thing in Chicago. I knew it was
a thing on the West coast, but June gloom. I thought,
oh gosh, if you lived in one of those big skyscrapers.
And by the way, Francesca, since the eighteen seventy one
Big Chicago fire, this city is the home of the
skyscrapers because they used steel. There are nearly fourteen hundred

(01:49:36):
skyscrapers in this city.

Speaker 3 (01:49:39):
The floor days, yes, yes, And.

Speaker 25 (01:49:42):
I'm going on a cruise tomorrow to look at to
look at it all and so we'll have all that
up on the blog of Fantastic Architecture, you know, pictures
and stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:49:51):
So I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 25 (01:49:52):
I love the wide Michigan Avenue street with flowers planted
down the middle. I've just been eating cheesy caramel Garrett popcorn.
I mean, I'm going to go and have a deep
dish pizza tonight.

Speaker 5 (01:50:04):
I just love it.

Speaker 3 (01:50:05):
It's all good, wonderful. Thank you so much, Megan Gosh.
I feel like looking out the window. We're in gloomy
June here too, aren't we coming up next? If you
are a fan of Daisy Jones and the Six, you
will be pleased to hear that its author, Taylor Jenkins Read,
has a new book out. Joone's going to tell us
all about it. It is thirteen to twelve.

Speaker 1 (01:50:26):
Books with winkles for the best election of Greek Reads.

Speaker 3 (01:50:31):
Joan Mackenzie joins me. Now, good morning, Hello, Okay, I
know a lot of people are going to be very
excited that Taylor Jenkins Read has a new book out.
I'm going to be honest, I haven't read the books,
but I did love the TV show.

Speaker 17 (01:50:42):
Oh Jones and well, I am one of them who's
very excited. Good A lot of listeners will know her
from possibly her most famous book, which is called The
Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, which has been actually on
the Wickles Top one hundred for the last several years.
And as you say, Daisy Jones and the sixth and
the new one is called Atmosphere, and it is completely different.

(01:51:03):
One of the clever things that she's done in some
of her earlier books is she has characters who are
in one of them who turn up as kind of
a side interest in another of them, so you'll get
the links between the stories. This is not one of those.
It's a standalone and it's set in nineteen eighty when
NASA opened its Space Shuttle program to women, and the
lead character is a woman called Joan great name. Her

(01:51:25):
name's Joan Goodwin. And in the story, she becomes part
of a team men and women who work together incredibly closely,
a very closely knit team, and they work and they
play together, and within that group she meets a woman
called Vanessa Ford who's a really brilliant I think she's
an aeronautical engineer, really clever mind and an interesting woman,

(01:51:49):
and they develop a very deep friendship, and they discover
possibilities within that friendship that had never occurred to them before,
and they become extremely close. And Vanessa is sent on
her mission into space, and so up she goes, and
Joan is back at mission control, and for this particular flow,
her job is being responsible for all of the communications

(01:52:10):
with the astronauts. She's the only person on the ground
who's allowed to talk to them while they're on their mission,
so everything has to go through her. And something goes
terribly badly wrong with the mission, and here she is
trying to be professional and to bring her friend safely
back to Earth with her team and listen to everything

(01:52:30):
her superiors are telling her and trying to communicate to her,
and deciding whether or not she's going to do the
right thing by NASA or whether she's going to do
the right thing by Vanessa. It's really taught and really
well done. And I was reading this in a cafe
waiting for a friend to turn up, and luckily for
everybody there, they arrived just at the point where I

(01:52:50):
was about to start howling.

Speaker 15 (01:52:53):
No, okay, But.

Speaker 17 (01:52:55):
I love this for the time period that it was
set in for the landscape these characters that it's like
she does with her books.

Speaker 3 (01:53:02):
She does it so well. Oh brilliant. Tell me about
Inside the.

Speaker 17 (01:53:06):
W This is by a New Zealand woman, Ronda Harpy Smith,
who was a prison officer for around twenty years. She
started her career down in Hawk's Bay at the Mangarore Prison,
and in order to become a prison officer, certainly at
that time I'm not sure about now, you had to
go through a six week training course. So she went

(01:53:26):
to college to learn how to do this job. And
she comes across as tough, really tough physically, very strong,
but obviously I think you'd probably have to be. She
did almost all of her work in men's prisons, but
she's also deeply compassionate, and I really loved the way
in this book that she doesn't judge anybody. She's there
to do a job, and she's there to do it

(01:53:46):
to the very best of her ability and in fact
to help these people try and become better people. She
often found herself in situations that certainly I could not
ever imagine being in. But she really understood the power
of relationships and she worked really hard to keep the
prisoners safe and she worked with them rather than against them,

(01:54:09):
and verbally, boy, she could give as good as she got.
She wasn't only a prison officer, but she was also
a member of the riot squad. And some of the
fights and things that she talks about where they have
lines of officers in the front line will be holding
up the riot shields and then there'll be people like
her who are the qualified riot squad people in the
next line going in against these hardened criminals. The Mango

(01:54:32):
or a prison where she worked was largely I believe
mongrel mob and black power.

Speaker 4 (01:54:37):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:54:37):
So this is a true insiders its reality of life
in prison really.

Speaker 17 (01:54:43):
Is, and she's very interesting. She did a short stint
in a women's prison. She didn't enjoy that because she
said the emotional mind games that imprisoned women can play
made it really hard. She preferred the physical nature of it.
She talks about what she calls the rats, who are
the prison officers who are corrupt and will provide things
to the prisoners that they never should do. It's a

(01:55:04):
very interesting, as you say, insight into what that world
is like.

Speaker 3 (01:55:06):
Oh, it sounds fascinating. That was Inside the Wire by
Rhonda Harpy Smith and also Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins read.
Thanks so much, Joan. We'll talk next week for the even.

Speaker 1 (01:55:18):
The Sunday Session Full show podcast on my Heart Radio
powered by News Talks at B.

Speaker 3 (01:55:25):
Thank you so much for joining me today on the
Sunday Session. Thank you to Carry for producing the show.
Jason Pine is up next with Weekend Sport. Joining me
next week on the show. AA Dan. He's a former
pharmacist turned crime writer and he's going to join me
to talk about his new book. It's inspired by his
true life experiences of drugs and drug dealers. The book
has been described as breaking Bad Meets the Wire. It's

(01:55:47):
a good yarn. It's a good thriller if you like thrillers.
So he's going to be with me next week. We're
finishing the hours. Georgia Lines, the song was called It's
a Wonderful Life. She is performing tonight at the Civic.
We spoke about this a few weeks ago with her.
The event is called Under the Stars. It's the end
of the Cabaret Festival. I'm very much looking forward to
this tonight. If you're looking for something to do, come along.

(01:56:10):
I'll see you there right Take care I'll see you
next week.

Speaker 4 (01:56:21):
Go just keep

Speaker 1 (01:56:54):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, Listen
live to News Talks it B from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio

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