Discussions are taking place over the future of the Census, and one expert is warning there's a factor the Government hasn't considered.
Last month, Minister Shane Reti announced the five yearly data collection will be scrapped - instead, he plans to use administrative data from Government agencies and an annual survey.
Wellington barrister Graeme Edgeler says the Data and Statistics Act requires a a periodic Census.
"There are a lot of other laws which deal with the Census as well - and one of the really important ones is the Electoral Act and one of the reasons why we count people is so we can divide them up into 70 or so electorates around the country, and they've all got to have the same number of people in them."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from newstalksb Right Good.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Government plans to scrap the traditional census model hit a
potentially unexpected constitutional hurdle. Last month, Minister Shane Ready announced
that the five year data collection will be scrapped. Instead,
he plans to use administrative data from government agencies in
an annual survey. Many concerns with the plan have been raised,
(00:34):
but now one lawyer believes that there could be legal
issues with the government's plan. Legal expert Graham Edgler is
with me. He has written about the issue and he's
going to help explain this to us. Good morning, Good morning.
I hadn't thought about this legal hurdle that the government
may face. Can you tak me through it?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Certainly? So, I mean the census. It's written into the
Data and.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Statists at the Data and Statistics Act. And so that's
the law which requires the government censor by government statistician
to conduct a census every five years. And so when
they had to delay the census because after the Christian earthquake,
they had to pass a law saying okay, well you
(01:15):
don't have to do it now.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We'll wait a couple of years.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
And so there are a lot of other laws which
deal with the census as well, and one of the
really important ones is the Electoral Act. One of the
reasons we count people is so that we're dividing them
up into seventy or so electorates around the country and
they've all got to be have about the same number
of people in them. Have about have an answer and
to know that information, you need to know who lives
and where they live and how many people are living
(01:38):
in each house to divide it up. But one of
the important things in the Electoral Act is there are
sort of half a dozen things in the Electoral Act
which are so important that if Parliament wants to change
them they need seventy five percent vote, and so.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
That's things like the voting age is one of them.
The term of parliament.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You know, we have elections every three years because if
the government could get in and just start, we've got
a majority. Now let's wait five years to hold an election.
We voted you in for three And so there are
sort of a few important ones, and one of them
is the rules around dividing up the country into general electorates.
You know how many electorates.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
There are, because you could have if you had we
used to have.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
It where some elections would electorates would have many, many
fewer people than other electorates, particularly under first past the post,
but even under MMP that just wouldn't be fair. And
so one of those really important fairness things is, Okay,
we've got a census. Here's the rules, how how we
divide up the country. And one of the important parts
of that is there is a census. Since that census data,
(02:40):
which has written into the Electoral Act, is the important
bit of information which the people are dividing up the
electorates use, and that section, what that section says is
one of those seventy five percent to change things, and
so it says there has to be a census, and
you know, all the other stuff about the census that's
in the other act that are having difficulties saying the
(03:00):
words to statistics earlier.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I think a lot of people sort of, you know,
we're under the impression that the census really was at
was about helping us do a really good budget. You know,
we hadn't quite we had didn't quite realize those what
else it was used for beyond that and the connection
to those things.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yes, I mean historically, I mean that's sort of the
main reason for it. Historically you sort of go back
in the existence of the census and the US it's
every ten years, they wrote in their constitution back in
seventeen eighty seven, you know, and so dividing up the
country into sort of fairly sized even groups of people.
That's the historical one of the big reasons for the census,
(03:43):
when all the information we get that was mostly just
about counting people, so we you knew where they lived
and you know, okay, did California have fifty ease or
forty eight or or however many and so that was
one thing historically, that's the main reason. But it's a
lot of other useful information in there for the government,
(04:03):
and we sort of.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Kept adding to it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
And now we get this information and that information from
conducting a census, or for that matter, from conducting your
administrative surveys or other administrative data that it can all
be very useful for the government. But this one, which
is sort of very fundamental to our the fairness of
our elections. It is just one of those little things
that we've gotten the law there that says, you know,
(04:27):
Electoral commission, Representation commission, get this information work out the answers.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Other North Island's got this many people living it, so
that's you know, the North Island needs this many electorates
and all those sorts of things, and that's so important.
It's it needs a big vote and unless Labor supports it,
there isn't seventy five percent. Yeah, yeah, the government alone
isn't enough the past us.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Law, so a simple majority alone in parliament can't change it.
You've got to have the support of at least seventy
five percent of MPs or a referendum.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Is that right? Technically, I think it would be a
very unusual thing to have a referendum on term of parliament.
Do we have him in? You're not? You know, those
sorts of questions are the topes of questions we put
to people.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, so theoretically they're going to need seventy five percent
of MPs supporting this. Do you think the government will
get opposition support on this?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I think there's a reasonable chance, you know, and there
might be some sort of you know, some debate, you know,
or what exactly you know, what limits can we change
and what we can do it. Because this has come
up quite recently, a few people might know at the moment.
One of the things that people in the election's sphere
of being asked is if you're on the marti roll
or the general role in you're marty at the moment
you can switch between them. Where a few days away
(05:41):
from being three months away from the local elections, and
so during that three month period just before a local
elections or just before general elections, you can't switch between roles.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Okay, so it sort of.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
A fairness thing. That's quite new. It used to be
we had the Maory option. We had, you know, six
months after the census. That was that period where you
could swap between the marti role and the general and
if you didn't switch, then you had to wait until
after the next census before you.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Could change again. And a lot of times people like
people should be able to change slightly more often than that.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
And so the last Labor government brought in a law
change and they said, oh, you know, I think you
should be able to switch at anytime that they introduced
that National was opposed to act and you know who
were in the opposition at that time, they were a
post book, got select committee, National an Act and still
opposed to it come out a slict committee. And at
that point the government realizes we need seventy five percent
(06:33):
for this, because that's sort of that little rule about
you know, the Mari option, and you get the data
from the Marory option, and that feeds into how many
Marty seats there are, how many Marty seats there are changes,
how many general seats there are little wrong and so
that's in that section. That section is in there, that
that little bit about that is in there as well.
And so at that point the government realized we need
(06:57):
seventy five percent for this, so they spoke to National,
and National said, well, we can't support it in the
form you've got it here, but if you had that
three month period before an election so that people couldn't
gain the system, Oh, this is going to be a
close election. You know, it's a week before week out,
and I can see my votes needed in this one place.
They got that sort of little three month law change.
National came on board, Act came on board, i think
(07:19):
in the end, and they passed it. And so my
suspicion is that's that's what's likely to happen. The government
will speak to labor and you know, this is something
that statistics in New Zealand I think wanted to do
for a while. The census has been becoming harder for
them to do, just because of the way society is changing,
and so I suspect the work on this was probably
being done while I had labor something. Ministers of Statistics.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, well, just because something's hard to do, it doesn't
mean we shouldn't try and do it. Thank you so
much for talking us through that, Grahame really appreciate that.
That was law expert Graham edgelar there. You're probably going
to hear more of this going forward and wonder why, oh,
the government just wants to get rid of it. Why
can't they? It turns out there's a tricky little law
in there attached in reference to the Electro Act, and
that's going to be the hold up there.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
More from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen live
to News Talks It B from nine am Sunday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from newstalksb Right Good.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Government plans to scrap the traditional census model hit a
potentially unexpected constitutional hurdle. Last month, Minister Shane Ready announced
that the five year data collection will be scrapped. Instead,
he plans to use administrative data from government agencies in
an annual survey. Many concerns with the plan have been raised,
(00:34):
but now one lawyer believes that there could be legal
issues with the government's plan. Legal expert Graham Edgler is
with me. He has written about the issue and he's
going to help explain this to us. Good morning, Good morning.
I hadn't thought about this legal hurdle that the government
may face. Can you tak me through it?
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Certainly? So, I mean the census. It's written into the
Data and.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Statists at the Data and Statistics Act. And so that's
the law which requires the government censor by government statistician
to conduct a census every five years. And so when
they had to delay the census because after the Christian earthquake,
they had to pass a law saying okay, well you
(01:15):
don't have to do it now.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We'll wait a couple of years.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
And so there are a lot of other laws which
deal with the census as well, and one of the
really important ones is the Electoral Act. One of the
reasons we count people is so that we're dividing them
up into seventy or so electorates around the country and
they've all got to be have about the same number
of people in them. Have about have an answer and
to know that information, you need to know who lives
and where they live and how many people are living
(01:38):
in each house to divide it up. But one of
the important things in the Electoral Act is there are
sort of half a dozen things in the Electoral Act
which are so important that if Parliament wants to change
them they need seventy five percent vote, and so.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
That's things like the voting age is one of them.
The term of parliament.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
You know, we have elections every three years because if
the government could get in and just start, we've got
a majority. Now let's wait five years to hold an election.
We voted you in for three And so there are
sort of a few important ones, and one of them
is the rules around dividing up the country into general electorates.
You know how many electorates.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
There are, because you could have if you had we
used to have.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
It where some elections would electorates would have many, many
fewer people than other electorates, particularly under first past the post,
but even under MMP that just wouldn't be fair. And
so one of those really important fairness things is, Okay,
we've got a census. Here's the rules, how how we
divide up the country. And one of the important parts
of that is there is a census. Since that census data,
(02:40):
which has written into the Electoral Act, is the important
bit of information which the people are dividing up the
electorates use, and that section, what that section says is
one of those seventy five percent to change things, and
so it says there has to be a census, and
you know, all the other stuff about the census that's
in the other act that are having difficulties saying the
(03:00):
words to statistics earlier.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I think a lot of people sort of, you know,
we're under the impression that the census really was at
was about helping us do a really good budget. You know,
we hadn't quite we had didn't quite realize those what
else it was used for beyond that and the connection
to those things.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yes, I mean historically, I mean that's sort of the
main reason for it. Historically you sort of go back
in the existence of the census and the US it's
every ten years, they wrote in their constitution back in
seventeen eighty seven, you know, and so dividing up the
country into sort of fairly sized even groups of people.
That's the historical one of the big reasons for the census,
(03:43):
when all the information we get that was mostly just
about counting people, so we you knew where they lived
and you know, okay, did California have fifty ease or
forty eight or or however many and so that was
one thing historically, that's the main reason. But it's a
lot of other useful information in there for the government,
(04:03):
and we sort of.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Kept adding to it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
And now we get this information and that information from
conducting a census, or for that matter, from conducting your
administrative surveys or other administrative data that it can all
be very useful for the government. But this one, which
is sort of very fundamental to our the fairness of
our elections. It is just one of those little things
that we've gotten the law there that says, you know,
(04:27):
Electoral commission, Representation commission, get this information work out the answers.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Other North Island's got this many people living it, so
that's you know, the North Island needs this many electorates
and all those sorts of things, and that's so important.
It's it needs a big vote and unless Labor supports it,
there isn't seventy five percent. Yeah, yeah, the government alone
isn't enough the past us.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Law, so a simple majority alone in parliament can't change it.
You've got to have the support of at least seventy
five percent of MPs or a referendum.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Is that right? Technically, I think it would be a
very unusual thing to have a referendum on term of parliament.
Do we have him in? You're not? You know, those
sorts of questions are the topes of questions we put
to people.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, so theoretically they're going to need seventy five percent
of MPs supporting this. Do you think the government will
get opposition support on this?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I think there's a reasonable chance, you know, and there
might be some sort of you know, some debate, you know,
or what exactly you know, what limits can we change
and what we can do it. Because this has come
up quite recently, a few people might know at the moment.
One of the things that people in the election's sphere
of being asked is if you're on the marti roll
or the general role in you're marty at the moment
you can switch between them. Where a few days away
(05:41):
from being three months away from the local elections, and
so during that three month period just before a local
elections or just before general elections, you can't switch between roles.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Okay, so it sort of.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
A fairness thing. That's quite new. It used to be
we had the Maory option. We had, you know, six
months after the census. That was that period where you
could swap between the marti role and the general and
if you didn't switch, then you had to wait until
after the next census before you.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Could change again. And a lot of times people like
people should be able to change slightly more often than that.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
And so the last Labor government brought in a law
change and they said, oh, you know, I think you
should be able to switch at anytime that they introduced
that National was opposed to act and you know who
were in the opposition at that time, they were a
post book, got select committee, National an Act and still
opposed to it come out a slict committee. And at
that point the government realizes we need seventy five percent
(06:33):
for this, because that's sort of that little rule about
you know, the Mari option, and you get the data
from the Marory option, and that feeds into how many
Marty seats there are, how many Marty seats there are changes,
how many general seats there are little wrong and so
that's in that section. That section is in there, that
that little bit about that is in there as well.
And so at that point the government realized we need
(06:57):
seventy five percent for this, so they spoke to National,
and National said, well, we can't support it in the
form you've got it here, but if you had that
three month period before an election so that people couldn't
gain the system, Oh, this is going to be a
close election. You know, it's a week before week out,
and I can see my votes needed in this one place.
They got that sort of little three month law change.
National came on board, Act came on board, i think
(07:19):
in the end, and they passed it. And so my
suspicion is that's that's what's likely to happen. The government
will speak to labor and you know, this is something
that statistics in New Zealand I think wanted to do
for a while. The census has been becoming harder for
them to do, just because of the way society is changing,
and so I suspect the work on this was probably
being done while I had labor something. Ministers of Statistics.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, well, just because something's hard to do, it doesn't
mean we shouldn't try and do it. Thank you so
much for talking us through that, Grahame really appreciate that.
That was law expert Graham edgelar there. You're probably going
to hear more of this going forward and wonder why, oh,
the government just wants to get rid of it. Why
can't they? It turns out there's a tricky little law
in there attached in reference to the Electro Act, and
that's going to be the hold up there.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
More from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin. Listen live
to News Talks It B from nine am Sunday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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