September 6, 2025 • 10 mins
Veteran broadcaster John Campbell investigated Destiny Church in a five-part documentary series earlier in the year - and the second instalment is due to come out tomorrow.
Following the release of Under His Command, more people have since come forward to share their experiences with Destiny Church.
Campbell says it wasn't his intention to make a second part, but more people sought him out to share their perspectives.
"When the first series went to air, a lot of people watched it and thought - okay, that was fair and reasonable and actually, he honoured his commitments to protect people and all that kind of stuff. So a lot of people kind of tracked me down."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks a'b.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It has been four months since John Campbell's first investigation
into Destiny's Church was made public. It was released as
a five part series called Under His Command. Since that
series ed, more people have come forward to share their
story about Destiny Church with John. Part two of his
Under His Command is coming to TV and Z Plus
tomorrow and John Campbell is with me now, Good morning, John,
(00:34):
love you to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
That's so nice with you, Francesca, thanks for having me.
I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Now, look, did you feel a responsibility to continue this
story after the first season?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The first season was hard because I think it's far
the same in terms of worldviews. Certainly, the more conservative
members of Destney Church and I don't have terribly much
in common. So when I was phoning them up, there
was an initial resistance. Some people would just hang up,
and others took a long, long, long time men and
(01:08):
many conversations to feel that they were able to talk
to me. And I think a lot of people don't
really understand how Telly works. So if you're having a
conversation with someone on the phone that's not going to
go on TV. You know, you need to turn up
and film them and all that kind of stuff. So
I spent a lot of time talking to people who
in the end didn't want to appear. They just told
me things. And then when the first series went away,
(01:31):
a lot of people watched it and thought, okay, that
was fair and reasonable and actually he honored his commitments
to you know, to protect people and all that kind
of stuff. So so a lot of people kind of
tracked me down, and they were different people. There was
more men tracking me down. The first time around, I
spoke mostly to women, a lot of whom are kind
of unhappily in the church because their husbands are in it.
(01:53):
This time, men, particularly from Men Up, came to me
and wanted to talk about what that organization's become. So
it wasn't my intention to keep going. It's just that
people sort of came into and sought me out.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
And why didn't they want to talk to you? What
was stopping them or preventing them sharing with you?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yeah, some people were genuinely scared, and I don't want
to get I think it's really important that I'm fear
about what they were scared about. And I think there's
a continuum there. Some people, I think we're concerned for
their physical safety. Others were worried that actually, when you're
in it, some people listening will be in a will
(02:34):
belong to a group of people who are very tired.
And it might not be any evangelical or Pentecostal church,
and it might be something else. But if your life
is invested in that, and if that feels like your fauno,
you know your family, and if they're the people you
talk to, that are the people you confide and that
are people you look forward to seeing and now are
people whose worldview you share. It it's really hard to leave.
(02:54):
It's really hard to leave destiny. I think one of
the guys who was one of the founding members, Wane,
one of the founding members, and Manor told me it's
the hardest thing he's ever done, was leave Disney Church.
So I think they were scared about losing family, losing
the entity, losing place. And I think some of them,
particularly the women I spoke to in the first series,
were scared of a physical response from their partners to
(03:16):
their husbands, which was terrifying. I had one moment when,
quite late on a Saturday night, a sift a phone
call for a woman I'd been talking to a lot,
including earlier that day, but it was just terrified of
anyone knowing she'd spoken to me, and I was quite late,
and I thought, oh okay, so I immediately pulled her back,
but she bundled me, and in the background I just
heard this voice saying, who's that calling so late? You know,
(03:38):
and you just think, oh my god, you know, what
have I done here? And so there was a lot
of that kind of precariousness.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I guess how has Destiny Church received the attention that
you're giving them?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well, I don't know, blod time you want to talk
to me is never given me an interview, and I
always say to him or you know, I want to
say to people, and I'm really happy to run the
interviews exactly as you're running this one now Francisco, which
is just down cart So you can't put words in
my mouth. You can answer, you can ask me ques,
you can ask me loaded questions or whatever, but if
(04:12):
I still get the right to answer them, but he
won'ted to do that, and so and I'm also I
don't know how many of your listeners saw that march
down Queen Street in June when they were ripping up
the flags of churches and ripping up rainbow flags and
putting a tire heart through the throat of just Cindra
A durn and stuff. I mean, it's part of me
that thinks that Bryan Tomackie feels any publicity is good publicity.
(04:33):
And then he won't be overwhelmingly unhappy with this because
you know, TV one is looking at him, but he
won't he won't participate in it, and and that kind
of troubles me. He's responded to me in sermons, so
he's spoken inserman's about the first series and being reasonably
critical of it, which is entirely his right. But you know,
but I do wish, I really wish he'd give me
(04:54):
an interview. I really wish he would.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
You mentioned that protest march there, John, which I mean,
everybody you know takes a load, you know, gets a copling,
don't they? But so much hate and so much fair
I mean, is this what you'd expect from a church?
Is this a church?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I don't know. I think a lot of your listeners
will think it's not you know, I grew up in
a fairly soft Anglican church in Wellington. It certainly wasn't
that church. It's not the churches I know. You know,
my son and daughter both went to Catholic schools. You know,
they're not their experience of the church. I think some
of that stuff on Queen Street in June was just extraordinary.
(05:39):
The vision that people get to see it, The vision
is really confronting. And I think he used the word hate.
It feels hateful to me. And I think, you know,
I was seeking to a pastor of the Rugby last
night just as delightful man. Oh. I started talking because
he was just heckling so brilliantly. He was just so funny,
and I said to what do you do and he said, ah, said,
I'm a pastor and we started talking about it. He
(06:01):
started talking about Jesus, you know, the Good past He
was proselytizing, even at the Rugby. But you know, I
don't remember Jesus being homophobic, you know, I don't remember Jesus,
you know, dealing in hate. And I feel like it's
certainly not my understanding of Christianity and it's not my
experience of it. But it almost feels to me like
(06:23):
this isn't really a Christian duty long although he uses
the language of Christianity, he's able to quote the scriptures,
you know, but it feels like something different. Now they're
dealing they're really profound hated xenophobia. It's transphobia, it's homophobic,
it's Islamophobic, it's you name it. Really, he's got it
into the miner I don't. It's starting to feel more
like an extreme right wing organization, almost strayed towards the
(06:46):
kind of neo fascist spaces that we're sort of seeing
in the UK A. But now and in fact, he's
starting to associate with Tommy Robinson. You know. That's for me,
that's the space he's occupying. John.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
The second season drops tomorrow. There is a focus on
the Man Up program. We've heard some of the success stories,
but there's another story. Is this program, how does it work?
What does it stand for?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Actually, Fortiska, thank you for making that point. On behalf
of Manut you know both I've got two men, So
I spoke to lots of men and setting up the season,
but two men who are actually in it, who physically
appear on cameraon you know, they both had great experiences
of Manut. So man Up is a place where you
go and share It's about mail anger, it's about male violence,
and I think, you know, we need to remind ourselves
(07:31):
what we learned from the Royal Commission of Abuse in
care right, that there are a lot of people in
this country who were profoundly damaged during their childhoods. You know,
they were abandoned and betrayed and hurt and they carry
that with them, and I think Manut was one of
those places where you would go and talk that through
and be surrounded by like minded people. I think a
(07:52):
lot of people in Manup, not all, but a lot
came out of pretty damaged environment. So you sort of
tried to overcome and express and understand your anger and
deal with it. And there's a lot to be said
for that. But now, of course, you know, when when
they're sort of storming the Tiata Tuo library or libraries
in Gisbon, or you know, closing down Rainbow story Time
(08:14):
or doing these really angry huk ams, a lot of
anger about the appropriation of Hakker for this point, for
this purpose, you know, in front of the Pride parade,
that's man Up too. And a lot of people that
I spoke to, and these two men both said it
on camera, said we thought we were about dealing with
anger and overcoming it, not going public with an expression
(08:34):
of it. And remember these aren't you know, liberal uppities
like me. These are conservative Christian people and one of them,
I just don't understand why we need to go and
be angry at gay people like what and you know,
kind of almost violently angry. And there's seven people facing
charges not proven yet absolutely not proven out of that
Tiata Too Library of Inland. You know, that's not dealing
(08:57):
with anger, that's overcoming it, that's expressing it. I think
people feel really Yeah, one of the founding members of
Man Up is Boken. We see he just feels just
stated by that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Gosh, it's a really interesting series, John, I thank you
so much for doing it. Are people trying to take
people involved because they want to take action against the church?
You know, what do they want their outcome to be?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
You know, sometimes Francesca, you think did I did I
want to be here? You know, you sit out in
life and and then you know it's old frog in
the water scenario, isn't it? You think who that water
is hot now and I hadn't quite noticed it getting there.
And I think if you go back to Lake City Church,
which is a precursor to Destiny, so that's Frie Tomek
out of Rotta in the nineties, that was essentially a
(09:49):
pretty happy, clappy evangelical church, you know, just bog stand
at Pentecostal hands in the year stuff, and I think
probably a good natured place to be. Sometime earlier the
century started doing the enough is Enough thing, and I
think he saw a gap in the market for kind
of homophobia and all that kind of stuff. But there
are people in their church who are just good people
(10:10):
and they don't they don't like where they've be ended up.
And I don't think they want to go and storm
a library or you know, go and shout at gay
people having their you know, their pride march down Ponsonby
Road all through central Weellian. I just don't think that's
where they intended to be. And it's very hard to
speak out against it in the church. There's very little
(10:31):
tolerance feeding criticism of Briant McKey within the church. So
I think that's why so many of them have come
to somebody who's probably an unlikely person for them to
talk to.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Which is yeah, Oh look, John, I really appreciate your
time this morning, Thank you so much. Season two of
Under His Command is available on TV and z Plus
from tomorrow. The first season is also on TV and
z Plus if you missed it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from the Sunday session with Frandjessica Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks a'b.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It has been four months since John Campbell's first investigation
into Destiny's Church was made public. It was released as
a five part series called Under His Command. Since that
series ed, more people have come forward to share their
story about Destiny Church with John. Part two of his
Under His Command is coming to TV and Z Plus
tomorrow and John Campbell is with me now, Good morning, John,
(00:34):
love you to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
That's so nice with you, Francesca, thanks for having me.
I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Now, look, did you feel a responsibility to continue this
story after the first season?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
The first season was hard because I think it's far
the same in terms of worldviews. Certainly, the more conservative
members of Destney Church and I don't have terribly much
in common. So when I was phoning them up, there
was an initial resistance. Some people would just hang up,
and others took a long, long, long time men and
(01:08):
many conversations to feel that they were able to talk
to me. And I think a lot of people don't
really understand how Telly works. So if you're having a
conversation with someone on the phone that's not going to
go on TV. You know, you need to turn up
and film them and all that kind of stuff. So
I spent a lot of time talking to people who
in the end didn't want to appear. They just told
me things. And then when the first series went away,
(01:31):
a lot of people watched it and thought, okay, that
was fair and reasonable and actually he honored his commitments
to you know, to protect people and all that kind
of stuff. So so a lot of people kind of
tracked me down, and they were different people. There was
more men tracking me down. The first time around, I
spoke mostly to women, a lot of whom are kind
of unhappily in the church because their husbands are in it.
(01:53):
This time, men, particularly from Men Up, came to me
and wanted to talk about what that organization's become. So
it wasn't my intention to keep going. It's just that
people sort of came into and sought me out.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
And why didn't they want to talk to you? What
was stopping them or preventing them sharing with you?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yeah, some people were genuinely scared, and I don't want
to get I think it's really important that I'm fear
about what they were scared about. And I think there's
a continuum there. Some people, I think we're concerned for
their physical safety. Others were worried that actually, when you're
in it, some people listening will be in a will
(02:34):
belong to a group of people who are very tired.
And it might not be any evangelical or Pentecostal church,
and it might be something else. But if your life
is invested in that, and if that feels like your fauno,
you know your family, and if they're the people you
talk to, that are the people you confide and that
are people you look forward to seeing and now are
people whose worldview you share. It it's really hard to leave.
(02:54):
It's really hard to leave destiny. I think one of
the guys who was one of the founding members, Wane,
one of the founding members, and Manor told me it's
the hardest thing he's ever done, was leave Disney Church.
So I think they were scared about losing family, losing
the entity, losing place. And I think some of them,
particularly the women I spoke to in the first series,
were scared of a physical response from their partners to
(03:16):
their husbands, which was terrifying. I had one moment when,
quite late on a Saturday night, a sift a phone
call for a woman I'd been talking to a lot,
including earlier that day, but it was just terrified of
anyone knowing she'd spoken to me, and I was quite late,
and I thought, oh okay, so I immediately pulled her back,
but she bundled me, and in the background I just
heard this voice saying, who's that calling so late? You know,
(03:38):
and you just think, oh my god, you know, what
have I done here? And so there was a lot
of that kind of precariousness.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I guess how has Destiny Church received the attention that
you're giving them?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Well, I don't know, blod time you want to talk
to me is never given me an interview, and I
always say to him or you know, I want to
say to people, and I'm really happy to run the
interviews exactly as you're running this one now Francisco, which
is just down cart So you can't put words in
my mouth. You can answer, you can ask me ques,
you can ask me loaded questions or whatever, but if
(04:12):
I still get the right to answer them, but he
won'ted to do that, and so and I'm also I
don't know how many of your listeners saw that march
down Queen Street in June when they were ripping up
the flags of churches and ripping up rainbow flags and
putting a tire heart through the throat of just Cindra
A durn and stuff. I mean, it's part of me
that thinks that Bryan Tomackie feels any publicity is good publicity.
(04:33):
And then he won't be overwhelmingly unhappy with this because
you know, TV one is looking at him, but he
won't he won't participate in it, and and that kind
of troubles me. He's responded to me in sermons, so
he's spoken inserman's about the first series and being reasonably
critical of it, which is entirely his right. But you know,
but I do wish, I really wish he'd give me
(04:54):
an interview. I really wish he would.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
You mentioned that protest march there, John, which I mean,
everybody you know takes a load, you know, gets a copling,
don't they? But so much hate and so much fair
I mean, is this what you'd expect from a church?
Is this a church?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I don't know. I think a lot of your listeners
will think it's not you know, I grew up in
a fairly soft Anglican church in Wellington. It certainly wasn't
that church. It's not the churches I know. You know,
my son and daughter both went to Catholic schools. You know,
they're not their experience of the church. I think some
of that stuff on Queen Street in June was just extraordinary.
(05:39):
The vision that people get to see it, The vision
is really confronting. And I think he used the word hate.
It feels hateful to me. And I think, you know,
I was seeking to a pastor of the Rugby last
night just as delightful man. Oh. I started talking because
he was just heckling so brilliantly. He was just so funny,
and I said to what do you do and he said, ah, said,
I'm a pastor and we started talking about it. He
(06:01):
started talking about Jesus, you know, the Good past He
was proselytizing, even at the Rugby. But you know, I
don't remember Jesus being homophobic, you know, I don't remember Jesus,
you know, dealing in hate. And I feel like it's
certainly not my understanding of Christianity and it's not my
experience of it. But it almost feels to me like
(06:23):
this isn't really a Christian duty long although he uses
the language of Christianity, he's able to quote the scriptures,
you know, but it feels like something different. Now they're
dealing they're really profound hated xenophobia. It's transphobia, it's homophobic,
it's Islamophobic, it's you name it. Really, he's got it
into the miner I don't. It's starting to feel more
like an extreme right wing organization, almost strayed towards the
(06:46):
kind of neo fascist spaces that we're sort of seeing
in the UK A. But now and in fact, he's
starting to associate with Tommy Robinson. You know. That's for me,
that's the space he's occupying. John.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
The second season drops tomorrow. There is a focus on
the Man Up program. We've heard some of the success stories,
but there's another story. Is this program, how does it work?
What does it stand for?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Actually, Fortiska, thank you for making that point. On behalf
of Manut you know both I've got two men, So
I spoke to lots of men and setting up the season,
but two men who are actually in it, who physically
appear on cameraon you know, they both had great experiences
of Manut. So man Up is a place where you
go and share It's about mail anger, it's about male violence,
and I think, you know, we need to remind ourselves
(07:31):
what we learned from the Royal Commission of Abuse in
care right, that there are a lot of people in
this country who were profoundly damaged during their childhoods. You know,
they were abandoned and betrayed and hurt and they carry
that with them, and I think Manut was one of
those places where you would go and talk that through
and be surrounded by like minded people. I think a
(07:52):
lot of people in Manup, not all, but a lot
came out of pretty damaged environment. So you sort of
tried to overcome and express and understand your anger and
deal with it. And there's a lot to be said
for that. But now, of course, you know, when when
they're sort of storming the Tiata Tuo library or libraries
in Gisbon, or you know, closing down Rainbow story Time
(08:14):
or doing these really angry huk ams, a lot of
anger about the appropriation of Hakker for this point, for
this purpose, you know, in front of the Pride parade,
that's man Up too. And a lot of people that
I spoke to, and these two men both said it
on camera, said we thought we were about dealing with
anger and overcoming it, not going public with an expression
(08:34):
of it. And remember these aren't you know, liberal uppities
like me. These are conservative Christian people and one of them,
I just don't understand why we need to go and
be angry at gay people like what and you know,
kind of almost violently angry. And there's seven people facing
charges not proven yet absolutely not proven out of that
Tiata Too Library of Inland. You know, that's not dealing
(08:57):
with anger, that's overcoming it, that's expressing it. I think
people feel really Yeah, one of the founding members of
Man Up is Boken. We see he just feels just
stated by that.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Gosh, it's a really interesting series, John, I thank you
so much for doing it. Are people trying to take
people involved because they want to take action against the church?
You know, what do they want their outcome to be?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
You know, sometimes Francesca, you think did I did I
want to be here? You know, you sit out in
life and and then you know it's old frog in
the water scenario, isn't it? You think who that water
is hot now and I hadn't quite noticed it getting there.
And I think if you go back to Lake City Church,
which is a precursor to Destiny, so that's Frie Tomek
out of Rotta in the nineties, that was essentially a
(09:49):
pretty happy, clappy evangelical church, you know, just bog stand
at Pentecostal hands in the year stuff, and I think
probably a good natured place to be. Sometime earlier the
century started doing the enough is Enough thing, and I
think he saw a gap in the market for kind
of homophobia and all that kind of stuff. But there
are people in their church who are just good people
(10:10):
and they don't they don't like where they've be ended up.
And I don't think they want to go and storm
a library or you know, go and shout at gay
people having their you know, their pride march down Ponsonby
Road all through central Weellian. I just don't think that's
where they intended to be. And it's very hard to
speak out against it in the church. There's very little
(10:31):
tolerance feeding criticism of Briant McKey within the church. So
I think that's why so many of them have come
to somebody who's probably an unlikely person for them to
talk to.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Which is yeah, Oh look, John, I really appreciate your
time this morning, Thank you so much. Season two of
Under His Command is available on TV and z Plus
from tomorrow. The first season is also on TV and
z Plus if you missed it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
For more from the Sunday session with Frandjessica Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks there'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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