Nic Lawrence speaks to francesca about attempts to revive an extinct bird, and why Sir Peter Jackson is funding the cause
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks edb Sunday with Style The Sunday Session
with Francesca Rudkin and Windles for the best selection of
great reeds News Talks edby.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You're with the Sunday Session. So Peter Jackson has invested
ten million towards reviving extinct animals. The money was given
to a startup in Texas, Colossal bios Sciences. No one
for trying to bring back long extinct animals like the
Dodo bird. Associate Professor and director of the Ittigo A
Paleogenetics Lab, Nick Rowlands is with me now.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Good morning, Nick, Good morning, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I'm so intrigued by this story. Do we need the
dodo bird back?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Much as it would be lovely to have a Dodo
like walking around her backyards and bowing our lawns, we
don't need it back. There's much more a critically endangered
species out there that the money would be much better
have spent saving them from extinction.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Because it sounds like a great idea, right It sounds
a bit like a movie, Nick, But I was wondering
if I was missing some scientific significance of being able
to do it. If we brought the Dono bird back,
would we learn anything, like, do we get anything out
of it? No?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I don't think we do. I think the the extinction
movements trying to save human guilt for the extinctions we've caused.
It's well worth developing these technologies to use to save
the species we've got left. But bringing them back is
just going to cause a whole lot of problems. It's
(01:47):
like Jurassic Karke. If you're going to bring back the dinosaurs,
you have to bring back the ecosystem. In some cases,
the ecosystem's not there. If you think of Central Otago,
it was dominated by Cofi and Lancewort. There's no analogue
for any of that ecosystem we have in New Zealand.
So if you're brought back the Mora wanted to put
in that ecosystem, it's just not there. But you need
(02:12):
more than one individual. You need a healthy population, and
that's about five hundred individuals. You want the genetic variation
of Auckland, not the genetic variation of the English royal
family or the Habsburgs.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That was going to They were my next two Christians.
I was interested from a key re perspective. You know,
could we bring would a moo be able to survive
in the natural environment we have now, but it wouldn't
be able to survive anywhere in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, it depends on where you put the mora and
what mole you bring back. It's the whole chicken and
egg question. So people might go, we want the giant moer,
but there's no bird in the world with an air
big enough to put to bring a giant moer embryo
up to a chick size for it to hatch. And
(02:59):
the other problem you've got is the mole's closest living
relatives are like sixty million years ago. They're too far away.
So you if you're going to bring it back, you've
got all these technological challenges, which is almost science fiction.
And then if you are going to bring it back,
you've got to have the environment, you've got to have
the population numbers. And then who actually owns it? Does
(03:21):
coloss or Bioscience Zone say a moa? Does New Zealand
own a moa? Does the tonguet defen or man own
the moa?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And obviously we don't have the environment for them to
live in at the moment. But if they do come,
if we did bring back long extinct animals, would they
then pose a threat to our current ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Quite possibly because everything everything has changed. So one of
the analogies down here is the sea lions come back
the critically endangered New Zealand sea line as they're eating
the critical endangered hoyho, our bird of the year. So
your ecosystems may not actually be able to handle a predator.
(04:06):
It's going to happen when the pilocine, the tasmane tiger
gets reintroduced, is it is it going to control the
pests and predators or is it going to go after
the native animals.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, this is turning out to be quite tricky. As
you mentioned, you need genetic variation. How many revived dodo
would we need to create a sustainable population.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Then there's this magical number in conservation biology, five hundred,
so it's named the five hundred rule, and you need
you need that number for your population to be self sustaining,
for there to be enough genetic variation to say, handle
a disease outbreak. If we're thinking of aving influenza or
(04:56):
bird influenza that's doing the rounds around the world, and
we'll get to New Zealand at some point. So you
need enough JEG variation for some individuals to be able
to survive though that disease, for them to breed not
have what we call inbreeding problems that you think of
(05:17):
like an Queen Victoria that passed hemophilia to most of
the European royal family, the Habsburgs, who became so inbred
that they couldn't have children. So it's hundreds of millions
of dollars to bring back one individual and you've got
to bring back five hundred of them for example.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Because the money could be spent elsewhere. I mean, we
could be focusing on conservation if it's the species that
still exist that are maybe you know, in a serious
state of decline.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, So the technology to be able to bring animals
back from the dead will help conserve species that we've
got left. But we should be using that technology to
save what we've got left. And it's whether reintroduce seen
lost genetic variation into say takahay or carcapote. A better
(06:11):
coat with a fast changing world ecosystem conservation TESTA edication,
ecological restoration. There are much much better things we could
spend money on than bringing back Moa or the Whoia
or Dodos for example.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Would you be just a little bit curious though, if
they brought back a willly memmoth to go and take
a look at it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I'd definitely be. I'd definitely be curious to to go
have a look. I'd also concerned, yeah, and also just
feel a little bit sad. It'd be a lot. It'd
be quite a lonely, wily mammoth until it got it,
until it got a mate. But it'd be it'd be
interesting what it what it would be like, because you
(06:57):
could sequence the genome of the wily mammoths, and people
have done that. If you managed to get around the
gestation issue of the wily mammoths has got all lot
longer gestation in the womb than its closest relative, the
Asian elephant, it would be it would be a wooly
mammoth with an Asian elephant mother. And then you go, well,
(07:18):
is it behaving like a willing mammoth? Is this what
willly mammoth behaves like? How does it learn all the
mammothy things it needs to learn, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Getting the feeling that this is all posing a lot
more questions than it is answers. Thank you so much
for your time, appreciate it. As always, that was Nick
Rawlins there, the associate professor and director of the Otago
Paleogenetics Lab. It is eleven to ten.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talk Z'B from nine am Sunday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks edb Sunday with Style The Sunday Session
with Francesca Rudkin and Windles for the best selection of
great reeds News Talks edby.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You're with the Sunday Session. So Peter Jackson has invested
ten million towards reviving extinct animals. The money was given
to a startup in Texas, Colossal bios Sciences. No one
for trying to bring back long extinct animals like the
Dodo bird. Associate Professor and director of the Ittigo A
Paleogenetics Lab, Nick Rowlands is with me now.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Good morning, Nick, Good morning, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I'm so intrigued by this story. Do we need the
dodo bird back?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Much as it would be lovely to have a Dodo
like walking around her backyards and bowing our lawns, we
don't need it back. There's much more a critically endangered
species out there that the money would be much better
have spent saving them from extinction.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Because it sounds like a great idea, right It sounds
a bit like a movie, Nick, But I was wondering
if I was missing some scientific significance of being able
to do it. If we brought the Dono bird back,
would we learn anything, like, do we get anything out
of it? No?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I don't think we do. I think the the extinction
movements trying to save human guilt for the extinctions we've caused.
It's well worth developing these technologies to use to save
the species we've got left. But bringing them back is
just going to cause a whole lot of problems. It's
(01:47):
like Jurassic Karke. If you're going to bring back the dinosaurs,
you have to bring back the ecosystem. In some cases,
the ecosystem's not there. If you think of Central Otago,
it was dominated by Cofi and Lancewort. There's no analogue
for any of that ecosystem we have in New Zealand.
So if you're brought back the Mora wanted to put
in that ecosystem, it's just not there. But you need
(02:12):
more than one individual. You need a healthy population, and
that's about five hundred individuals. You want the genetic variation
of Auckland, not the genetic variation of the English royal
family or the Habsburgs.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That was going to They were my next two Christians.
I was interested from a key re perspective. You know,
could we bring would a moo be able to survive
in the natural environment we have now, but it wouldn't
be able to survive anywhere in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, it depends on where you put the mora and
what mole you bring back. It's the whole chicken and
egg question. So people might go, we want the giant moer,
but there's no bird in the world with an air
big enough to put to bring a giant moer embryo
up to a chick size for it to hatch. And
(02:59):
the other problem you've got is the mole's closest living
relatives are like sixty million years ago. They're too far away.
So you if you're going to bring it back, you've
got all these technological challenges, which is almost science fiction.
And then if you are going to bring it back,
you've got to have the environment, you've got to have
the population numbers. And then who actually owns it? Does
(03:21):
coloss or Bioscience Zone say a moa? Does New Zealand
own a moa? Does the tonguet defen or man own
the moa?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And obviously we don't have the environment for them to
live in at the moment. But if they do come,
if we did bring back long extinct animals, would they
then pose a threat to our current ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Quite possibly because everything everything has changed. So one of
the analogies down here is the sea lions come back
the critically endangered New Zealand sea line as they're eating
the critical endangered hoyho, our bird of the year. So
your ecosystems may not actually be able to handle a predator.
(04:06):
It's going to happen when the pilocine, the tasmane tiger
gets reintroduced, is it is it going to control the
pests and predators or is it going to go after
the native animals.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes, this is turning out to be quite tricky. As
you mentioned, you need genetic variation. How many revived dodo
would we need to create a sustainable population.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Then there's this magical number in conservation biology, five hundred,
so it's named the five hundred rule, and you need
you need that number for your population to be self sustaining,
for there to be enough genetic variation to say, handle
a disease outbreak. If we're thinking of aving influenza or
(04:56):
bird influenza that's doing the rounds around the world, and
we'll get to New Zealand at some point. So you
need enough JEG variation for some individuals to be able
to survive though that disease, for them to breed not
have what we call inbreeding problems that you think of
(05:17):
like an Queen Victoria that passed hemophilia to most of
the European royal family, the Habsburgs, who became so inbred
that they couldn't have children. So it's hundreds of millions
of dollars to bring back one individual and you've got
to bring back five hundred of them for example.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Because the money could be spent elsewhere. I mean, we
could be focusing on conservation if it's the species that
still exist that are maybe you know, in a serious
state of decline.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, So the technology to be able to bring animals
back from the dead will help conserve species that we've
got left. But we should be using that technology to
save what we've got left. And it's whether reintroduce seen
lost genetic variation into say takahay or carcapote. A better
(06:11):
coat with a fast changing world ecosystem conservation TESTA edication,
ecological restoration. There are much much better things we could
spend money on than bringing back Moa or the Whoia
or Dodos for example.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Would you be just a little bit curious though, if
they brought back a willly memmoth to go and take
a look at it.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
I'd definitely be. I'd definitely be curious to to go
have a look. I'd also concerned, yeah, and also just
feel a little bit sad. It'd be a lot. It'd
be quite a lonely, wily mammoth until it got it,
until it got a mate. But it'd be it'd be
interesting what it what it would be like, because you
(06:57):
could sequence the genome of the wily mammoths, and people
have done that. If you managed to get around the
gestation issue of the wily mammoths has got all lot
longer gestation in the womb than its closest relative, the
Asian elephant, it would be it would be a wooly
mammoth with an Asian elephant mother. And then you go, well,
(07:18):
is it behaving like a willing mammoth? Is this what
willly mammoth behaves like? How does it learn all the
mammothy things it needs to learn, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Getting the feeling that this is all posing a lot
more questions than it is answers. Thank you so much
for your time, appreciate it. As always, that was Nick
Rawlins there, the associate professor and director of the Otago
Paleogenetics Lab. It is eleven to ten.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talk Z'B from nine am Sunday, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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