November 2, 2024 • 17 mins
80’s hit-maker Rick Astley has opened up about the less glamourous parts that come with fame.
After Astley released his debut album Whenever You Need Somebody in 1987, featuring the iconic Never Gonna Give You Up, he topped the charts across 25 different countries - but he pulled back from the spotlight 6 years later.
His new memoir Never: The Autobiography explores the dangerous - and monotonous - parts of his unique music career.
"I struggled with it a lot. There's parts of it that are fun and there's parts of it that were more fun than when I was truly actually famous. I think now I get to enjoy it - and it's a bit more of a switch now."
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh, look, doesn't this bring back memories? One of the
biggest hits of the nineteen eighties. I've got this vision
of my older brother dancing in his bedroom to be side.
Oh sorry Marcus, but yeah no used to love this
little number. Released in nineteen eighty seven, Never Going to
Give You Up introduced to young Rick Ashley to the
pop world and completely changed his life. What followed was
a best selling album with millions of sales worldwide, tours,
(00:35):
a whirlwind of TV appearances and all the scrutiny that
comes with fame, and after only six years, Rick retired
and walked away. He has shared his journey and thoughts
on fame in his first ever memoir, Never Is in
stores now and Rick Ashley joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Rick, good morning, Good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You've been asked to write an autobiography before you turn
down the opportunity, Why now?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I think it's been a few things, to be honest.
One of the things is that I'm fifty and I'm
going to start forgetting things. I'm already forgetting most things,
so I'll forget most of my life and career, I
think if I carry on more importantly, my mum and
dad both passed away in the last few years, and
I felt I really wanted to be honest because I
wanted to be honest about everything in the book, but
(01:22):
especially about my upbringing because it wasn't particularly an easy upbringing.
I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me, because
I've had a great life, and I think that that
upbringing kind of pushed me to want to do several things,
one of which was have a stable family life. And
I've been with the same woman since nineteen eighty nine
and we have a thirty two year old daughter, so
(01:45):
my two older brothers and my older sister all in
long term relationships. But our mom and dad divorced when
I was about four, and I'm the youngest of the
four kids, and just various things within my childhood I
think pushed me towards once in a career, basically on stage,
if you like, if that's what I putting it down to,
because I think I wanted love and a tension wherever
(02:07):
I could get it, because I don't feel I got
enough from my mum and dad in a nutshell and
I don't blame them. They had a very very tough
life themselves, and they had a very terrible experience where
they lost a son before I was born and before
the next earl, this Mike, was born, So just dealing
with that and other things, I think it was incredibly
tough for them. And obviously I was brought up in
(02:29):
my dad's house and obviously that I think is again
it was very strange back then. So there were just
a lot of things in my childhood that pushed me
to have this pop career, if you like. And it's
not as simple as that sentence explains it, but yeah,
I just wanted to be really honest and actually delve
into it a bit, you know, No.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You absolutely do. What was it like being a teenager
in the early eighties in the north of England.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Well, I wouldn't say great, if I'm honest. The little
town that I'm from was kind of a tough town,
I think. I mean, it's not like the typical you
know story of like, oh it was grim up north,
as British people say, but it wasn't. It wasn't sexy
and exciting, less prey that way, and there wasn't a
(03:17):
lot of opportunities really in terms of like trying to
get into a band and stuff. There were a couple
of bands in my school, one of which I was
in and I was the drummer, and then I went
on to join another band later after school days and stuff.
But it wasn't exactly like a hotbed of music. A
little town that I'm from, and we had Manchester and
Liverpool either side of us, kind of like twenty miles
(03:37):
each way either way. But I think in terms of
like I think what was part of my weekly routine was.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
To go to the local cricket club to a.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Disco and here DJs play kind of cool records, not
just the pop records that were in the charts, but
cool records. And I kind of loved that and that
was a bit of salvation, I think, and just being
in a band with some friends that was as well,
you know what I mean. It really kind of it
was getting me out of my home life that way,
and I kind of needed that thing, but it wasn't
(04:09):
It wasn't great. I don't look back on living in
newt lu Willows where I'm from, as amazing experience, to
be honest, not doing it any disservice, but I am
doing it a bit of disservice.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But they got How did you get Adam Newton?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Well, I met a guy called Pete Waterman who was
part of the you know about to be fabulous stock
Ache in Waterman, who dominated the pop charts for quite
a while.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
But when he saw me, I was in a band
with some friends and we.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Were okay, you know, we were playing the local pub
scene and stuff like that, but we weren't great and
he wasn't interested in signing a band. He just wanted
to sign singers, and I didn't know who was but
he had red leather pants and he had a jack,
so I thought that'll do. That's a good start for
a pop maestro. And I just went to London with
him and then, you know, for meetings and stuff like that,
(04:57):
and I went to their studios and I didn't know
Stockache and Waterman were nobody did really, you know, they
were just in the beginning of what they were doing.
I signed a deal with them. About a few months later.
They had their first massive record with Dead or Alive
called used Being Around like a record, and it was
such a great song that I think in a great
track and it was massive, and it kind of like
was their calling card to the rest of the industry.
(05:19):
And they never stopped. They just kept having hits after hit.
So in the meantime I ended up kind of being
one of the t boys at the studio because I
had to go on the back burner. They didn't have
time to work with me, you know, because they're getting
big artists who were already having hits kind of thing
were coming to them to say, give us another one
kind of thing. So yeah, that was kind of weird really,
but it was also a bit of an apprenticeship, you know.
(05:40):
I got to be at the studio through some of
the most amazing moments that they had, you know, where
they were literally having a hit record every couple of weeks,
which I thought not was normal, but I kind of thought, well,
other studios must be doing this, but they weren't. Obviously
hit records were being made in London, of course they were,
but I mean these guys were doing.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
It every few weeks.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So it was an amazing place to be and obviously
I got I think I got the best song they
ever wrote, which is never going to give you up,
so sure did.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
How were they as they sort of started tuning out
all these hits. How were they regarded by the rest
of the industry.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Now, and listen, I mean the music industry didn't really
particularly like them. I mean record labels did. You had
pop artists, because they would send them over there and
they'd give them a hit kind of thing in the beginning,
you know, and then obviously they started signing things themselves
like Kylie and Jason and lots of other stuff. But
the music press kind of hated them, and that was
tough I think for me and probably some of the
(06:39):
other artists that work with them, because they kind of
hate you before they've even heard the record, because they've
just seen stock aking Mortsman's name as writer, producer and going,
we hate this before.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
We even hear it.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
So I don't think I got as much as some
people did working with them in terms of negative But
one of the things I loved about going to America
is that nobody knew they were so I kind of
went to America and it was like, okay, great, So
if they liked the record, they liked the record.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
There's no you know, they just weren't interested in talking
about them because they didn't care because they didn't they
didn't really have many. It's in America. You know, my
stuff kind of slipped through the net and I had
a few there and and that sort of changed perception
of me a little bit. I think even in the
UK it's sort of you know, if you if you're
a British artist and you go to America and have
a number one record, people just suddenly raise an eyebrown,
(07:27):
go what is going on? Because lots of British artists
who are massive and could be massive obviously, you know
in where you guys are and you know, Australian all
that sort of parts of the world, it doesn't always
mean that they're going to crack America. You know, they
can crack the rest of the world sometimes and just
not crack America. It's weird, but I'm not saying I
cracked it, but I had, you know, quite a few
hits there and stuff. I'm toured there and everything, and
(07:49):
I think it did change people's perspectives. I think they
were a bit more open to, well, we'll see what
happens with this guy.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So Pete Woodman who pitched you to icaa they gave
you the deal and kind of off you weaned. I mean,
you were so young at the time. Were you paying
attention to these deals?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Were you you know, not really No, I didn't really care,
to be honest. I mean I don't think many people
do when they get into music. I mean I have
met people who like, have been through every minut shop
of the deal they're going to sign, and the points
of this and if we have a break point here,
what does this mean? And if I have to buy
the album back in seven years time, it blah blah
blah whatever. But most people who get a record deal
(08:29):
just go, great, let's get on with it. That means
I get to make a record and we'll see what happens.
And that's kind of where I was.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
It was a bit.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
It was a bit strange because obviously I spent so
much time at the stock aching Waterman building while they
were making a lot of these early hits that they
had making Tea for Banana armor and God and knows
who else. That you start to hear things and you
do start to understand, Okay, so publishing is a completely
different thing. And I didn't know that. You know, I
knew nothing, And you sort of got a grasp of
(09:01):
the fact when someone had a hit record. Because I
was around Pete a lot. I lived in his flat
for quite a few months. I used to go into
work with them every morning, and i'd be in the
pub with them at night, and I'd just sit there
just I wouldn't say much. I just sit there soaking
it all up.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And you would start to realize that, well, okay, well,
if I actually have a bigot record, that's going to
I mean, I know, you know that's going to change
your life, but you you can actually see it when
you're around it, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Because the guys kind of all bought Ferraris after about twelve.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Months, you know what I mean. So you think, okay,
well this does seem to work, you know. But I
wasn't really bothered.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I mean, it's easy to say that because I did
make quite a lot of money, But I mean, I
don't think I was bothered about it. I just don't
think that was really I just wanted to make a record,
I think, and yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
And obviously go on tour and do all of that.
I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I don't I don't think many people's motivation is you know,
the money straight off. That's I don't know's I just
don't think it is.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
How was the pop star life in those early days.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Yeah, it was, to be honest, it's unbelievably boring of
me to say that, but it was a bit monotonous
because I wasn't in a band with three or four
other friends where we wouldn't turn up to things because
we were all commored from the night before. I just
told the world with a manager doing promo basically for
like a year and a bit before I ever got
(10:22):
to do gigs, because nobody wanted me to do concerts
because they didn't make money out of me doing concerts, particularly,
you know, they made money out of me doing TV
shows that sold a million records, you know. So that's
what I did, and I just I did. I kind
of did what I was told. And I don't mean
that in a kind of like being a child or
being an innocent or being what have you. It was
(10:42):
kind of like I didn't have anything to compare it with.
Someone just showed me a fax with like a load
of dates on it and went, that's where you're going
for the next six months. And I went, okay, let's
go and I just did it. And also think because
just traveling, I mean I never you know, as a kid,
I went to a few European countries, but just for
holidays and stuff, and only a couple And then literally
(11:04):
I was on a plane almost every day of my life,
and I was going absolutely everywhere. I mean, even in
that first the first six months of it was mainly Europe.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I seem to remember.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I don't even think we went to America or Japan
or obviously you know, down to Australia, New Zealand anything
like that for I think even into the next year
of it. But in that next year I probably went
to America like four or five times, I think, and
consider i'd never been to like contant, not constantly, but
kind of going like I can see it on that list,
we're going again. And also when we went to America
(11:35):
as a as a real kind of kind of idea
of it, we'd go for weeks. We didn't just go
for like five days. I'd go to America for three
or four weeks and be doing radio on TV every
single day. And I'm not that's not a complaint. That's
what it takes to have a hit record. It's a
big old place and you have to keep at it.
But I just don't think I'll use that word again.
(11:55):
It wasn't very sexy.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It just wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And this is not so great about the book, and
just could have you know, I mean, I totally lived
the eighties pop scene and so just all the names
in these stories and things, and it's all just I
so enjoyed reading it. Fame is it? Is it fun
or did you struggle with it?
Speaker 5 (12:16):
I struggled with it a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
There's parts of it that are fun, and there's parts
of it that are more fun today than they were
when I was truly, actually really famous. I think now
I get to enjoy it and it's a bit more
of a switch now. I mean, I am not exaggerating
to say that I sometimes play in front of, you know,
even at my own gigs, sometimes ten thousand people, because
I do arenas now in the UK, not everywhere, but
in the UK can and I'll go and do that.
(12:39):
And I can be putting petrol in the car on
the way home if I'm not on the tour bus
because I've decided to go home for a day or so,
and I'll not not I could jump on the front
bonnet of the car and sing never going to give
you up?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
And would no one would care, honest to god.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
It's it's frighteningly weird sometimes because I've got the more
screaming the song at me at the end of the
gig and like I say, in front of an arena
full of people, and then I can be on the
multi way home thing, I better get some petrol.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
And I don't even think twice about, you know, whether
whether I should do.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
It or not, or oh, someone's going to recognize me
or anything. I don't even think twice about it, And
that I think is an amazing, wonderful thing. Whereas I
think back then, I think I would have been spotted
a lot more, and I would have been I just
would have been more intimidated by it, Whereas now I
can see it in people's eyes if they've recognized me
as I'm strolling to pay for my petrol, and I
can just I just they'll kind of look at me
(13:35):
and I go all right, and they'll go, oh, yeah,
it's him, isn't it, And I go, yeah, you know,
and that's it. It's it's kind of crazy, but it's
that's I think that's a much more comfortable way to
experience fame than it was back then. Back then it
was a bit nuts, really because obviously most of the
people who recognize me are older and they don't have
that hysteria thing about it anymore. There's not like fifteen
(13:57):
year old girls kind of going a bit loopy because
you know.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Morton Harkits just turned on, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Well, actually they still turn a bit loopy for Morton actually,
to be fair, but they don't do it for me.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Rick.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Writing this book, I wonder, you know, if you really
sort of reflected on that period of time in your
life and the impact that it hit on you.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I did, definitely.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
I mean I spoke to my two older brothers and
my sister about it quite a lot. Spoke to my
wife obviously about it because we've been together for all
that time, and our daughter a little bit as well,
even though she didn't really grow up with me being famous.
I've kind of stopped in it when she was two
or three, And I think it's just important to get
other people's perspectives a little bit and to talk to
(14:39):
them how I remember things. And also my old manager,
my ex manager, tops because he was there through most
of that, a lot of it. You know, I think
what happens is you without you realizing it. It is
quite cathartic and therapeutic and all those things. Because but
I have done a lot of therapy in my life,
not for a long time now, but I did in
my late twenties early thirties because I guess I probably
(15:01):
needed it because of that four or five years of madness,
but I also needed for the that happened in my childhood,
and I think I wanted to.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
I really wanted to kind.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Of be able to be a dad who wasn't like
my dad. And I loved my dad and he loved me.
But bless him, he should have been diagnosed and treated.
I think he was like seriously depressed and seriously down
at times, to the point where it was like mania,
and you're thinking kids should not be around that. And
(15:31):
I've got a bit of his temper and I've got
a bit of his depression, to be honest, I do.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
But I've been really super lucky. I've done the therapy,
so at least I see triggers.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Sometimes and I know when I'm getting in a crappy mood,
and I can sometimes just you know, put Gladiator on,
get the biscuits out, make a cup of tea and say, oh,
go for a long walk and just say, look, you
won't feel like this in an hour with a bit
of lock. Just don't go there, you know. And I
think my dad couldn't do that. It was impossible for him.
He had a switch. Again, took and the switches, but
(16:02):
he had a switch and it just got flipped and
that was it. He go from like singing franks and
out to us all, you know, in like the greatest
mood ever to I just want to smash everything, you know,
And it just wasn't easy to be around really. So yeah,
there's been a lot of therapy going through my brain,
I think, and you know, going over the whole process
of it, I think, and also because of my career.
You know, it's like it's pretty hard for a twenty
(16:23):
one year old to be put on that conveyor belt
and just say go and run with it. No one
tells you anything, No one gives you a clue of
how to do any of it or what to feel
the ups and downs of it. There and listen, we'll
see it. We've just seen it. Recently again with somebody,
it pushes into the very very edge sometimes because we're.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Not all built that way to deal.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
With it, even though we might look like we're dealing
with it, because we might be good at smiling on Telly,
but it doesn't mean to say that you're actually dealing
with it, you know. And obviously I wouldn't swap with anybody.
I wouldn't change any of it. I'm super super happy,
I'm super grateful for everything that happened, and I'm in
a really good spot right now. So but I do
know that sometimes when I see certain artists, younger artists especially,
(17:08):
and I kind of think somebody needs to help them,
because I've been through this a little bit, and I
can see that they're not really happy, you know, and
I think that's I don't know, I think I'm not
I'm not I'm not calling out record labels here, but
I'm saying I don't think it'd be a bad idea
to get somebody to just sit down with someone for
a couple of hours and say, you know, almost in
(17:29):
a therapy way, like, look, you've got to be careful,
You've got that, you know. I don't know where that happens.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Mate.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
It didn't mean my day, but maybe it does now.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Record's been such a delight to speak to you and
you're a real pleasure, and thank you so much for
the book.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Thank you, thank you, Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Never by Rick Esley is in stores now.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
For more from the Sunday session with friend Jessica Rudgin,
listen lived us Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on Ihard Radio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Oh, look, doesn't this bring back memories? One of the
biggest hits of the nineteen eighties. I've got this vision
of my older brother dancing in his bedroom to be side.
Oh sorry Marcus, but yeah no used to love this
little number. Released in nineteen eighty seven, Never Going to
Give You Up introduced to young Rick Ashley to the
pop world and completely changed his life. What followed was
a best selling album with millions of sales worldwide, tours,
(00:35):
a whirlwind of TV appearances and all the scrutiny that
comes with fame, and after only six years, Rick retired
and walked away. He has shared his journey and thoughts
on fame in his first ever memoir, Never Is in
stores now and Rick Ashley joins me.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Rick, good morning, Good morning.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You've been asked to write an autobiography before you turn
down the opportunity, Why now?
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I think it's been a few things, to be honest.
One of the things is that I'm fifty and I'm
going to start forgetting things. I'm already forgetting most things,
so I'll forget most of my life and career, I
think if I carry on more importantly, my mum and
dad both passed away in the last few years, and
I felt I really wanted to be honest because I
wanted to be honest about everything in the book, but
(01:22):
especially about my upbringing because it wasn't particularly an easy upbringing.
I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me, because
I've had a great life, and I think that that
upbringing kind of pushed me to want to do several things,
one of which was have a stable family life. And
I've been with the same woman since nineteen eighty nine
and we have a thirty two year old daughter, so
(01:45):
my two older brothers and my older sister all in
long term relationships. But our mom and dad divorced when
I was about four, and I'm the youngest of the
four kids, and just various things within my childhood I
think pushed me towards once in a career, basically on stage,
if you like, if that's what I putting it down to,
because I think I wanted love and a tension wherever
(02:07):
I could get it, because I don't feel I got
enough from my mum and dad in a nutshell and
I don't blame them. They had a very very tough
life themselves, and they had a very terrible experience where
they lost a son before I was born and before
the next earl, this Mike, was born, So just dealing
with that and other things, I think it was incredibly
tough for them. And obviously I was brought up in
(02:29):
my dad's house and obviously that I think is again
it was very strange back then. So there were just
a lot of things in my childhood that pushed me
to have this pop career, if you like. And it's
not as simple as that sentence explains it, but yeah,
I just wanted to be really honest and actually delve
into it a bit, you know, No.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You absolutely do. What was it like being a teenager
in the early eighties in the north of England.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Well, I wouldn't say great, if I'm honest. The little
town that I'm from was kind of a tough town,
I think. I mean, it's not like the typical you
know story of like, oh it was grim up north,
as British people say, but it wasn't. It wasn't sexy
and exciting, less prey that way, and there wasn't a
(03:17):
lot of opportunities really in terms of like trying to
get into a band and stuff. There were a couple
of bands in my school, one of which I was
in and I was the drummer, and then I went
on to join another band later after school days and stuff.
But it wasn't exactly like a hotbed of music. A
little town that I'm from, and we had Manchester and
Liverpool either side of us, kind of like twenty miles
(03:37):
each way either way. But I think in terms of
like I think what was part of my weekly routine was.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
To go to the local cricket club to a.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
Disco and here DJs play kind of cool records, not
just the pop records that were in the charts, but
cool records. And I kind of loved that and that
was a bit of salvation, I think, and just being
in a band with some friends that was as well,
you know what I mean. It really kind of it
was getting me out of my home life that way,
and I kind of needed that thing, but it wasn't
(04:09):
It wasn't great. I don't look back on living in
newt lu Willows where I'm from, as amazing experience, to
be honest, not doing it any disservice, but I am
doing it a bit of disservice.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But they got How did you get Adam Newton?
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Well, I met a guy called Pete Waterman who was
part of the you know about to be fabulous stock
Ache in Waterman, who dominated the pop charts for quite
a while.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
But when he saw me, I was in a band
with some friends and we.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Were okay, you know, we were playing the local pub
scene and stuff like that, but we weren't great and
he wasn't interested in signing a band. He just wanted
to sign singers, and I didn't know who was but
he had red leather pants and he had a jack,
so I thought that'll do. That's a good start for
a pop maestro. And I just went to London with
him and then, you know, for meetings and stuff like that,
(04:57):
and I went to their studios and I didn't know
Stockache and Waterman were nobody did really, you know, they
were just in the beginning of what they were doing.
I signed a deal with them. About a few months later.
They had their first massive record with Dead or Alive
called used Being Around like a record, and it was
such a great song that I think in a great
track and it was massive, and it kind of like
was their calling card to the rest of the industry.
(05:19):
And they never stopped. They just kept having hits after hit.
So in the meantime I ended up kind of being
one of the t boys at the studio because I
had to go on the back burner. They didn't have
time to work with me, you know, because they're getting
big artists who were already having hits kind of thing
were coming to them to say, give us another one
kind of thing. So yeah, that was kind of weird really,
but it was also a bit of an apprenticeship, you know.
(05:40):
I got to be at the studio through some of
the most amazing moments that they had, you know, where
they were literally having a hit record every couple of weeks,
which I thought not was normal, but I kind of thought, well,
other studios must be doing this, but they weren't. Obviously
hit records were being made in London, of course they were,
but I mean these guys were doing.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
It every few weeks.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
So it was an amazing place to be and obviously
I got I think I got the best song they
ever wrote, which is never going to give you up,
so sure did.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
How were they as they sort of started tuning out
all these hits. How were they regarded by the rest
of the industry.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Now, and listen, I mean the music industry didn't really
particularly like them. I mean record labels did. You had
pop artists, because they would send them over there and
they'd give them a hit kind of thing in the beginning,
you know, and then obviously they started signing things themselves
like Kylie and Jason and lots of other stuff. But
the music press kind of hated them, and that was
tough I think for me and probably some of the
(06:39):
other artists that work with them, because they kind of
hate you before they've even heard the record, because they've
just seen stock aking Mortsman's name as writer, producer and going,
we hate this before.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
We even hear it.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
So I don't think I got as much as some
people did working with them in terms of negative But
one of the things I loved about going to America
is that nobody knew they were so I kind of
went to America and it was like, okay, great, So
if they liked the record, they liked the record.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
There's no you know, they just weren't interested in talking
about them because they didn't care because they didn't they
didn't really have many. It's in America. You know, my
stuff kind of slipped through the net and I had
a few there and and that sort of changed perception
of me a little bit. I think even in the
UK it's sort of you know, if you if you're
a British artist and you go to America and have
a number one record, people just suddenly raise an eyebrown,
(07:27):
go what is going on? Because lots of British artists
who are massive and could be massive obviously, you know
in where you guys are and you know, Australian all
that sort of parts of the world, it doesn't always
mean that they're going to crack America. You know, they
can crack the rest of the world sometimes and just
not crack America. It's weird, but I'm not saying I
cracked it, but I had, you know, quite a few
hits there and stuff. I'm toured there and everything, and
(07:49):
I think it did change people's perspectives. I think they
were a bit more open to, well, we'll see what
happens with this guy.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
You know.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So Pete Woodman who pitched you to icaa they gave
you the deal and kind of off you weaned. I mean,
you were so young at the time. Were you paying
attention to these deals?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Were you you know, not really No, I didn't really care,
to be honest. I mean I don't think many people
do when they get into music. I mean I have
met people who like, have been through every minut shop
of the deal they're going to sign, and the points
of this and if we have a break point here,
what does this mean? And if I have to buy
the album back in seven years time, it blah blah
blah whatever. But most people who get a record deal
(08:29):
just go, great, let's get on with it. That means
I get to make a record and we'll see what happens.
And that's kind of where I was.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
It was a bit.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
It was a bit strange because obviously I spent so
much time at the stock aching Waterman building while they
were making a lot of these early hits that they
had making Tea for Banana armor and God and knows
who else. That you start to hear things and you
do start to understand, Okay, so publishing is a completely
different thing. And I didn't know that. You know, I
knew nothing, And you sort of got a grasp of
(09:01):
the fact when someone had a hit record. Because I
was around Pete a lot. I lived in his flat
for quite a few months. I used to go into
work with them every morning, and i'd be in the
pub with them at night, and I'd just sit there
just I wouldn't say much. I just sit there soaking
it all up.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And you would start to realize that, well, okay, well,
if I actually have a bigot record, that's going to
I mean, I know, you know that's going to change
your life, but you you can actually see it when
you're around it, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Because the guys kind of all bought Ferraris after about twelve.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Months, you know what I mean. So you think, okay,
well this does seem to work, you know. But I
wasn't really bothered.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I mean, it's easy to say that because I did
make quite a lot of money, But I mean, I
don't think I was bothered about it. I just don't
think that was really I just wanted to make a record,
I think, and yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
And obviously go on tour and do all of that.
I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
I don't I don't think many people's motivation is you know,
the money straight off. That's I don't know's I just
don't think it is.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Really.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
How was the pop star life in those early days.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Yeah, it was, to be honest, it's unbelievably boring of
me to say that, but it was a bit monotonous
because I wasn't in a band with three or four
other friends where we wouldn't turn up to things because
we were all commored from the night before. I just
told the world with a manager doing promo basically for
like a year and a bit before I ever got
(10:22):
to do gigs, because nobody wanted me to do concerts
because they didn't make money out of me doing concerts, particularly,
you know, they made money out of me doing TV
shows that sold a million records, you know. So that's
what I did, and I just I did. I kind
of did what I was told. And I don't mean
that in a kind of like being a child or
being an innocent or being what have you. It was
(10:42):
kind of like I didn't have anything to compare it with.
Someone just showed me a fax with like a load
of dates on it and went, that's where you're going
for the next six months. And I went, okay, let's
go and I just did it. And also think because
just traveling, I mean I never you know, as a kid,
I went to a few European countries, but just for
holidays and stuff, and only a couple And then literally
(11:04):
I was on a plane almost every day of my life,
and I was going absolutely everywhere. I mean, even in
that first the first six months of it was mainly Europe.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I seem to remember.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I don't even think we went to America or Japan
or obviously you know, down to Australia, New Zealand anything
like that for I think even into the next year
of it. But in that next year I probably went
to America like four or five times, I think, and
consider i'd never been to like contant, not constantly, but
kind of going like I can see it on that list,
we're going again. And also when we went to America
(11:35):
as a as a real kind of kind of idea
of it, we'd go for weeks. We didn't just go
for like five days. I'd go to America for three
or four weeks and be doing radio on TV every
single day. And I'm not that's not a complaint. That's
what it takes to have a hit record. It's a
big old place and you have to keep at it.
But I just don't think I'll use that word again.
(11:55):
It wasn't very sexy.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
It just wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And this is not so great about the book, and
just could have you know, I mean, I totally lived
the eighties pop scene and so just all the names
in these stories and things, and it's all just I
so enjoyed reading it. Fame is it? Is it fun
or did you struggle with it?
Speaker 5 (12:16):
I struggled with it a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
There's parts of it that are fun, and there's parts
of it that are more fun today than they were
when I was truly, actually really famous. I think now
I get to enjoy it and it's a bit more
of a switch now. I mean, I am not exaggerating
to say that I sometimes play in front of, you know,
even at my own gigs, sometimes ten thousand people, because
I do arenas now in the UK, not everywhere, but
in the UK can and I'll go and do that.
(12:39):
And I can be putting petrol in the car on
the way home if I'm not on the tour bus
because I've decided to go home for a day or so,
and I'll not not I could jump on the front
bonnet of the car and sing never going to give
you up?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
And would no one would care, honest to god.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
It's it's frighteningly weird sometimes because I've got the more
screaming the song at me at the end of the
gig and like I say, in front of an arena
full of people, and then I can be on the
multi way home thing, I better get some petrol.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
And I don't even think twice about, you know, whether
whether I should do.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
It or not, or oh, someone's going to recognize me
or anything. I don't even think twice about it, And
that I think is an amazing, wonderful thing. Whereas I
think back then, I think I would have been spotted
a lot more, and I would have been I just
would have been more intimidated by it, Whereas now I
can see it in people's eyes if they've recognized me
as I'm strolling to pay for my petrol, and I
can just I just they'll kind of look at me
(13:35):
and I go all right, and they'll go, oh, yeah,
it's him, isn't it, And I go, yeah, you know,
and that's it. It's it's kind of crazy, but it's
that's I think that's a much more comfortable way to
experience fame than it was back then. Back then it
was a bit nuts, really because obviously most of the
people who recognize me are older and they don't have
that hysteria thing about it anymore. There's not like fifteen
(13:57):
year old girls kind of going a bit loopy because
you know.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Morton Harkits just turned on, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Well, actually they still turn a bit loopy for Morton actually,
to be fair, but they don't do it for me.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
Rick.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Writing this book, I wonder, you know, if you really
sort of reflected on that period of time in your
life and the impact that it hit on you.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I did, definitely.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
I mean I spoke to my two older brothers and
my sister about it quite a lot. Spoke to my
wife obviously about it because we've been together for all
that time, and our daughter a little bit as well,
even though she didn't really grow up with me being famous.
I've kind of stopped in it when she was two
or three, And I think it's just important to get
other people's perspectives a little bit and to talk to
(14:39):
them how I remember things. And also my old manager,
my ex manager, tops because he was there through most
of that, a lot of it. You know, I think
what happens is you without you realizing it. It is
quite cathartic and therapeutic and all those things. Because but
I have done a lot of therapy in my life,
not for a long time now, but I did in
my late twenties early thirties because I guess I probably
(15:01):
needed it because of that four or five years of madness,
but I also needed for the that happened in my childhood,
and I think I wanted to.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
I really wanted to kind.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Of be able to be a dad who wasn't like
my dad. And I loved my dad and he loved me.
But bless him, he should have been diagnosed and treated.
I think he was like seriously depressed and seriously down
at times, to the point where it was like mania,
and you're thinking kids should not be around that. And
(15:31):
I've got a bit of his temper and I've got
a bit of his depression, to be honest, I do.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
But I've been really super lucky. I've done the therapy,
so at least I see triggers.
Speaker 4 (15:40):
Sometimes and I know when I'm getting in a crappy mood,
and I can sometimes just you know, put Gladiator on,
get the biscuits out, make a cup of tea and say, oh,
go for a long walk and just say, look, you
won't feel like this in an hour with a bit
of lock. Just don't go there, you know. And I
think my dad couldn't do that. It was impossible for him.
He had a switch. Again, took and the switches, but
(16:02):
he had a switch and it just got flipped and
that was it. He go from like singing franks and
out to us all, you know, in like the greatest
mood ever to I just want to smash everything, you know,
And it just wasn't easy to be around really. So yeah,
there's been a lot of therapy going through my brain,
I think, and you know, going over the whole process
of it, I think, and also because of my career.
You know, it's like it's pretty hard for a twenty
(16:23):
one year old to be put on that conveyor belt
and just say go and run with it. No one
tells you anything, No one gives you a clue of
how to do any of it or what to feel
the ups and downs of it. There and listen, we'll
see it. We've just seen it. Recently again with somebody,
it pushes into the very very edge sometimes because we're.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Not all built that way to deal.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
With it, even though we might look like we're dealing
with it, because we might be good at smiling on Telly,
but it doesn't mean to say that you're actually dealing
with it, you know. And obviously I wouldn't swap with anybody.
I wouldn't change any of it. I'm super super happy,
I'm super grateful for everything that happened, and I'm in
a really good spot right now. So but I do
know that sometimes when I see certain artists, younger artists especially,
(17:08):
and I kind of think somebody needs to help them,
because I've been through this a little bit, and I
can see that they're not really happy, you know, and
I think that's I don't know, I think I'm not
I'm not I'm not calling out record labels here, but
I'm saying I don't think it'd be a bad idea
to get somebody to just sit down with someone for
a couple of hours and say, you know, almost in
(17:29):
a therapy way, like, look, you've got to be careful,
You've got that, you know. I don't know where that happens.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Mate.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
It didn't mean my day, but maybe it does now.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Record's been such a delight to speak to you and
you're a real pleasure, and thank you so much for
the book.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Thank you, thank you, Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Never by Rick Esley is in stores now.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
For more from the Sunday session with friend Jessica Rudgin,
listen lived us Talks it'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on Ihard Radio.
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