May 17, 2025 • 13 mins
This week on the Sunday Panel, managing director of 818, Chris Henry, and director at Capital, Ben Thomas, joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Eurovision 2025 took place today - what do we make of this year's entries? Do we get it? Do we think Austria deserved to win?
It's been an interesting week in politics, with political reporter Thomas Coughlan bringing up the 'excessive amount of pig-headedness' over the last few days. Do we all deserve better than what we saw in Parliament this week? Or is this just politics?
The US Department of Homeland Security has floated the idea of creating a reality show where immigrants can compete for US citizenship. Does this feel like a crass idea?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Crikey, Carrie, Is there anything else? Is there more to this?
This is Wasted Love by JJ. This is the Austrian
song entered into Eurovision which has won, which maybe a
little unfairly sounds like a bit of a wailing missed me.
(00:36):
But it's head to our panel and get their opinion
on this. So we are joined by managing director of
eight one eight Chris Henry. Good morning Chris, and Director
at Capital Ben Thomas. Good morning Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, it's kind of like a lament, right that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Was so much the moment that is politter. That is
a much more polite way of trying to describe that song, Chris,
your thoughts on the Vision twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
To be fair, Francisca, I think you're giving it a
bad run because from what I understand, it starts off
with these sort of cinematic high notes, but it actually
ends some club banging beats. Oh to skip ahead to
sort of three minutes, okay, and feel how it comes
out and then maybe we can make a judge from there,
because I'm right into a europe Vision Songs. It's a
particular part of society and people love it and people
(01:29):
get into it, and I say, all for it.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Go JJ.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Carrie's going to try and find the end so that
we can have a fear, make some fear of comments
on that, and good on you, Chris. You're right. We
shouldn't just listen to five seconds of a song and
make a judgment of it. Now, I do struggle to
get Eurovision like I get it as a musical extravaganza.
I love the fact that it's over the top and
it's theatrical and things like that, but if you called
it a pop competition, I sort of struggle to take
(01:57):
it seriously. Chris, would that be fair?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Well?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Possibly, it's definitely an entertainment competition, but you've also got
to remember that the Eurovision is actually produce some of
the biggest stars in the world. That's where Ebba was
first discovered. I think they won it in nineteen seventy
and Selean Dionny when she first came into Eurovision, and
then look at her now and beat She was almost
supposed to be performing in this but obviously her stiff
(02:21):
person syndrome has got the better of her, and she
only appeared via video link, not in person, as the
speculations had.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, Ben, I should never have taken on your vision
of THO.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Nine.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Chris was such an avidvant. Hang on, this is for you, Chris.
Here we go. We've got a bit of ending at me.
Let's stop. Let's hang on.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Here we go. Oh oh the draft.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's okay, I'm going to kill it. There's actually only
thirty seconds left of that, Ben, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
What I would say is that since the first end
of the First World War, whether it's nations with the
European Community, whether it's NATO, has been trying to find
a way to kind of keep peace on the continent
and manage these traditional sort of nationalistic rivalries in such
(03:17):
a way as without plunging the continent into war. Some
of them have been more successful than others. And Eurovision,
you know, sort of it enables this kind of healthy
nationalistic competition, you know, with you know, some collateral damage,
as we've seen from over the last few minutes of
audio clips, but without open hot conflict. So you know, look,
(03:42):
you have to see it in the context from which
it emerged.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I love it. So Austria Number one Israel was second, Estonia, third,
Sweet and Forth with their song about the sauna, and
Italy fifth.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay, let's move on political behavior. We spoke to our
political journalist Thomas Coglan earlier in the show and I
did quite like the way he described the week as
in a excessive amount of pig headedness when it comes
to what came out of the House this week. Ben
fair to say we've not seen a high amount of
(04:15):
quality work come out of the House this week. Do
we deserve a bit better than this?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yes? I think that there's been a kind of tendency
for politicians to just this is just in general over
the last set of ten fifteen years or so, to
talk about, you know, their journey and their vision for
New Zealand and their feelings. And I think we're reaching
(04:42):
about the natural end point of that where Parliament is.
You know, we're seeing you know that part Parliament have
the two and a half sort of sword rule in
terms of keeping people apart so that it can be
a safe space where everyone just talks about how they're
most demonized and persecuted for MP in parliament. You know,
(05:02):
we're going to have to get rid of the order
paper and substitute what the American liberals called a progressive stack,
where the speaking or is determined by your lack of
privilege and your persecution. So Mikola Willison Brook van Velden
can talk about the misogynistic attacks on them by Andrea Advance,
and the Malori Party can talk about, you know, being
(05:24):
punished for being a Malori and some other stuff that
we won't get into, you know, like reaching parliamentary order.
And it all is just an extremely self centered salt
system or wind fest by all of them, and they're
not talking about policy or the work that they should
actually be doing.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Would we expect more, ben, because these are some pretty
experienced politicians.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, look, absolutely their experienced, don't look I mean, I
mean that might be part of it is that, you know,
they know that politically, you know, because politics is turning
into more of a team gay team sport. You know,
it's more of a sort of fandom these days, where
people just kind of pick so in the party Mobi
(06:08):
for instance, know that their Instagram followers just want to
see that they're being persecuted by the establishment. I think
the National Pandact parties were pretty relieved when Andrew Varka's
column was brought up in Parliament so that they could start
talking about you know, mean spirited language and whether we're
a particular word was feminist or not in its use,
(06:29):
rather than the actual policies under discussion. So I think
the incentives are getting pretty bad. Yeah. I think as
a public and as textplayers, we should be able to
expect more from them than just a monomaniacal focus on
their own feelings.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So Chris, yeah, this is probably you know, it's just politics,
isn't it. It's about distraction, it's about getting a headline.
As being mentioned there, you know, you see some parties
using that you know, question time in the House to
provide some content for social media. As a purposist, would
you go, would you say, well, actually, you're doing a
good job. This is what we expect.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I don't know. I mean I think that the behavior
just it turns into white noise and then nobody is
aware of what the actual issues are. I mean, that's
definitely how it feels from my perspective. Someone made a
great point to me at the back end last week.
They said, it sort of feels like that last week
of high school, just before you're about to leave high
school and go after university and everything. So it's just
goes out to the wind. And I was like, it's true,
(07:28):
but it is only May. We're only just really into
the year. It seems wild and I think Ben's points
are totally valid. It seems very self serving and maybe
it's time to get back to the things that actually matter.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Who's to blame for this?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, if we're talking about behavior in the house,
is the speaker not doing their job?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I think if we talk about behavior in the house
and this is Winston Peters himself, an unimpeachable upholder of
standards in the house, was complaining about Yeah, look, I
think there has been a degradation for some time. I
think Peter's has point when he brings up the sort
of slipping standard even when it comes to things like dress,
because I think again it makes the focus about, you know,
(08:13):
the feelings of particular MPs. At Parliament is a venue
for self expression as opposed to representing voters or debating ideas.
You know, I mean for me, the personal low low
point came during Mallards as Triva Mallard's time as speaker.
You know, he said that you could wear a pornamo
(08:34):
instead of a tie, and it's totally valid, totally legitimate,
still a formal expression. And I think then he gave
in on it. You know, Jordan's were allowed in the
house instead of dress shoes. That was de parti male
he were arguing because that was part of already waited
his culture growing up in South Ork. Apparently, So I
(08:55):
think everybody just needs to stop treating it as you know,
and I think the high school comparison is probably pretty act.
You know, his high school a place to go to learn,
or his high school to go to express yourself and
to do a fit check and to show everyone you're
wearing now in reality you know that and part comes
into it. But the primary purpose and the primary person
(09:18):
from Parliament is you know, to talk about these ideas
on legislation.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Right talking about reality, Chris, the Department of Homeland Security
in the US is considering a reality show where immigrants
compete for US citizenship and I look, we toss, We
really thought this was a joke when we heard about it,
But no, it's a show where they would get a
group of people together. It would be called The American
(09:44):
It would start with pre vetting contestants arriving at Alice Island.
Then the immigrant contestants would then ride a train across
the US and compete in an array of challenges, including
log rolling in Wisconsin. You know, to take such a
serious issue at the moment and to turn it into
entertainment feels really crass. But weirdly, when I read this,
(10:05):
I'm so not surprised by what reality TV will strip
me these days. I just kind of went, yeah, it
could be quite entertaining.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I mean, to me, it looks like a show that
Trump must be disappointed that he didn't come up with
himself or be asked to host. Like it feels like
a perfect extension of his character. I mean, there is
a reality TV show for everything, it seems. I mean,
this definitely seems crass and after such an important issue,
And I know that the people in living in America,
especially those that are that are immigrants of that country,
(10:37):
whether they legal or not, would be feeling sort of
awful about the fact that it had come together. And
I can't imagine the rest of the American people. It's
going to go very down with the mean unless the
contescens of the show have sort of no trace of diversity,
and then it becomes a bit of fun and games.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Then someone described it as kind of the Hunker games
or squid games. But no one is going to get
shot or you know, an arrow through the head, and
no one apparently is going to be no one's going
to be deported at the end of it. So these
people could potentially turn into stars and then people would
want them to stay. I mean, you never know. Could
could be a good thing.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, I guess the question comes down to what. And
again it's that you know, what is the government for
and why does the government have powers over the citizenship,
over immigration? You know, there are policy reasons behind it,
and the policy generally will not be that we want to,
(11:33):
you know, have more resources to create the television and
the you know, I just I just sort of feel that,
you know, there's this sort of commingling and you know,
you know, suddenly between Trump is legitimately the first reality
TV president and and entertainment, which I think, you know
(11:58):
shows up in sort of very sinister ways, you know,
like when they have pictures of sort of extraditions to
El Salvadorian Jays and video on Twitter with the clinking
of chains and call it deportation, the ASMR and here,
you know, the sort of maybe it is a bit harmless,
but I think there is something about degrading to the
(12:21):
human spirit, sort of saying you know, I mean we obviously,
you know, all countries do make people jump through hoops
in order to you know, in order to get citizenship.
But it's not you know, in the middle of an arena. No,
it's not for entertainment. And so it is just a
sort of I think partially, you know, we're losing sight
of what is government actually for.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
It's not long rolling in wisconstant. No, Yeah, now I
completely agree with you. I think the reason I'm so
desensitive and no longer shocked is that I've just I
just might have clicked on The Secret Lives of Mormon
Wives yesterday, which the second season has just come out
on Disney, and let me tell you, yeah, I just
(13:03):
oh my goodness, you just have to watch it. I
have no words. I have no words, but I just
keep coming back for more.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks at b from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Crikey, Carrie, Is there anything else? Is there more to this?
This is Wasted Love by JJ. This is the Austrian
song entered into Eurovision which has won, which maybe a
little unfairly sounds like a bit of a wailing missed me.
(00:36):
But it's head to our panel and get their opinion
on this. So we are joined by managing director of
eight one eight Chris Henry. Good morning Chris, and Director
at Capital Ben Thomas. Good morning Ben.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, it's kind of like a lament, right that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Was so much the moment that is politter. That is
a much more polite way of trying to describe that song, Chris,
your thoughts on the Vision twenty twenty five.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
To be fair, Francisca, I think you're giving it a
bad run because from what I understand, it starts off
with these sort of cinematic high notes, but it actually
ends some club banging beats. Oh to skip ahead to
sort of three minutes, okay, and feel how it comes
out and then maybe we can make a judge from there,
because I'm right into a europe Vision Songs. It's a
particular part of society and people love it and people
(01:29):
get into it, and I say, all for it.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Go JJ.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Carrie's going to try and find the end so that
we can have a fear, make some fear of comments
on that, and good on you, Chris. You're right. We
shouldn't just listen to five seconds of a song and
make a judgment of it. Now, I do struggle to
get Eurovision like I get it as a musical extravaganza.
I love the fact that it's over the top and
it's theatrical and things like that, but if you called
it a pop competition, I sort of struggle to take
(01:57):
it seriously. Chris, would that be fair?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Well?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Possibly, it's definitely an entertainment competition, but you've also got
to remember that the Eurovision is actually produce some of
the biggest stars in the world. That's where Ebba was
first discovered. I think they won it in nineteen seventy
and Selean Dionny when she first came into Eurovision, and
then look at her now and beat She was almost
supposed to be performing in this but obviously her stiff
(02:21):
person syndrome has got the better of her, and she
only appeared via video link, not in person, as the
speculations had.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, Ben, I should never have taken on your vision
of THO.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Nine.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Chris was such an avidvant. Hang on, this is for you, Chris.
Here we go. We've got a bit of ending at me.
Let's stop. Let's hang on.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Here we go. Oh oh the draft.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's okay, I'm going to kill it. There's actually only
thirty seconds left of that, Ben, Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
What I would say is that since the first end
of the First World War, whether it's nations with the
European Community, whether it's NATO, has been trying to find
a way to kind of keep peace on the continent
and manage these traditional sort of nationalistic rivalries in such
(03:17):
a way as without plunging the continent into war. Some
of them have been more successful than others. And Eurovision,
you know, sort of it enables this kind of healthy
nationalistic competition, you know, with you know, some collateral damage,
as we've seen from over the last few minutes of
audio clips, but without open hot conflict. So you know, look,
(03:42):
you have to see it in the context from which
it emerged.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I love it. So Austria Number one Israel was second, Estonia, third,
Sweet and Forth with their song about the sauna, and
Italy fifth.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay, let's move on political behavior. We spoke to our
political journalist Thomas Coglan earlier in the show and I
did quite like the way he described the week as
in a excessive amount of pig headedness when it comes
to what came out of the House this week. Ben
fair to say we've not seen a high amount of
(04:15):
quality work come out of the House this week. Do
we deserve a bit better than this?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yes? I think that there's been a kind of tendency
for politicians to just this is just in general over
the last set of ten fifteen years or so, to
talk about, you know, their journey and their vision for
New Zealand and their feelings. And I think we're reaching
(04:42):
about the natural end point of that where Parliament is.
You know, we're seeing you know that part Parliament have
the two and a half sort of sword rule in
terms of keeping people apart so that it can be
a safe space where everyone just talks about how they're
most demonized and persecuted for MP in parliament. You know,
(05:02):
we're going to have to get rid of the order
paper and substitute what the American liberals called a progressive stack,
where the speaking or is determined by your lack of
privilege and your persecution. So Mikola Willison Brook van Velden
can talk about the misogynistic attacks on them by Andrea Advance,
and the Malori Party can talk about, you know, being
(05:24):
punished for being a Malori and some other stuff that
we won't get into, you know, like reaching parliamentary order.
And it all is just an extremely self centered salt
system or wind fest by all of them, and they're
not talking about policy or the work that they should
actually be doing.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Would we expect more, ben, because these are some pretty
experienced politicians.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, look, absolutely their experienced, don't look I mean, I
mean that might be part of it is that, you know,
they know that politically, you know, because politics is turning
into more of a team gay team sport. You know,
it's more of a sort of fandom these days, where
people just kind of pick so in the party Mobi
(06:08):
for instance, know that their Instagram followers just want to
see that they're being persecuted by the establishment. I think
the National Pandact parties were pretty relieved when Andrew Varka's
column was brought up in Parliament so that they could start
talking about you know, mean spirited language and whether we're
a particular word was feminist or not in its use,
(06:29):
rather than the actual policies under discussion. So I think
the incentives are getting pretty bad. Yeah. I think as
a public and as textplayers, we should be able to
expect more from them than just a monomaniacal focus on
their own feelings.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
So Chris, yeah, this is probably you know, it's just politics,
isn't it. It's about distraction, it's about getting a headline.
As being mentioned there, you know, you see some parties
using that you know, question time in the House to
provide some content for social media. As a purposist, would
you go, would you say, well, actually, you're doing a
good job. This is what we expect.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I don't know. I mean I think that the behavior
just it turns into white noise and then nobody is
aware of what the actual issues are. I mean, that's
definitely how it feels from my perspective. Someone made a
great point to me at the back end last week.
They said, it sort of feels like that last week
of high school, just before you're about to leave high
school and go after university and everything. So it's just
goes out to the wind. And I was like, it's true,
(07:28):
but it is only May. We're only just really into
the year. It seems wild and I think Ben's points
are totally valid. It seems very self serving and maybe
it's time to get back to the things that actually matter.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Who's to blame for this?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Ben?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, if we're talking about behavior in the house,
is the speaker not doing their job?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I think if we talk about behavior in the house
and this is Winston Peters himself, an unimpeachable upholder of
standards in the house, was complaining about Yeah, look, I
think there has been a degradation for some time. I
think Peter's has point when he brings up the sort
of slipping standard even when it comes to things like dress,
because I think again it makes the focus about, you know,
(08:13):
the feelings of particular MPs. At Parliament is a venue
for self expression as opposed to representing voters or debating ideas.
You know, I mean for me, the personal low low
point came during Mallards as Triva Mallard's time as speaker.
You know, he said that you could wear a pornamo
(08:34):
instead of a tie, and it's totally valid, totally legitimate,
still a formal expression. And I think then he gave
in on it. You know, Jordan's were allowed in the
house instead of dress shoes. That was de parti male
he were arguing because that was part of already waited
his culture growing up in South Ork. Apparently, So I
(08:55):
think everybody just needs to stop treating it as you know,
and I think the high school comparison is probably pretty act.
You know, his high school a place to go to learn,
or his high school to go to express yourself and
to do a fit check and to show everyone you're
wearing now in reality you know that and part comes
into it. But the primary purpose and the primary person
(09:18):
from Parliament is you know, to talk about these ideas
on legislation.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Right talking about reality, Chris, the Department of Homeland Security
in the US is considering a reality show where immigrants
compete for US citizenship and I look, we toss, We
really thought this was a joke when we heard about it,
But no, it's a show where they would get a
group of people together. It would be called The American
(09:44):
It would start with pre vetting contestants arriving at Alice Island.
Then the immigrant contestants would then ride a train across
the US and compete in an array of challenges, including
log rolling in Wisconsin. You know, to take such a
serious issue at the moment and to turn it into
entertainment feels really crass. But weirdly, when I read this,
(10:05):
I'm so not surprised by what reality TV will strip
me these days. I just kind of went, yeah, it
could be quite entertaining.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I mean, to me, it looks like a show that
Trump must be disappointed that he didn't come up with
himself or be asked to host. Like it feels like
a perfect extension of his character. I mean, there is
a reality TV show for everything, it seems. I mean,
this definitely seems crass and after such an important issue,
And I know that the people in living in America,
especially those that are that are immigrants of that country,
(10:37):
whether they legal or not, would be feeling sort of
awful about the fact that it had come together. And
I can't imagine the rest of the American people. It's
going to go very down with the mean unless the
contescens of the show have sort of no trace of diversity,
and then it becomes a bit of fun and games.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Then someone described it as kind of the Hunker games
or squid games. But no one is going to get
shot or you know, an arrow through the head, and
no one apparently is going to be no one's going
to be deported at the end of it. So these
people could potentially turn into stars and then people would
want them to stay. I mean, you never know. Could
could be a good thing.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, I guess the question comes down to what. And
again it's that you know, what is the government for
and why does the government have powers over the citizenship,
over immigration? You know, there are policy reasons behind it,
and the policy generally will not be that we want to,
(11:33):
you know, have more resources to create the television and
the you know, I just I just sort of feel that,
you know, there's this sort of commingling and you know,
you know, suddenly between Trump is legitimately the first reality
TV president and and entertainment, which I think, you know
(11:58):
shows up in sort of very sinister ways, you know,
like when they have pictures of sort of extraditions to
El Salvadorian Jays and video on Twitter with the clinking
of chains and call it deportation, the ASMR and here,
you know, the sort of maybe it is a bit harmless,
but I think there is something about degrading to the
(12:21):
human spirit, sort of saying you know, I mean we obviously,
you know, all countries do make people jump through hoops
in order to you know, in order to get citizenship.
But it's not you know, in the middle of an arena. No,
it's not for entertainment. And so it is just a
sort of I think partially, you know, we're losing sight
of what is government actually for.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
It's not long rolling in wisconstant. No, Yeah, now I
completely agree with you. I think the reason I'm so
desensitive and no longer shocked is that I've just I
just might have clicked on The Secret Lives of Mormon
Wives yesterday, which the second season has just come out
on Disney, and let me tell you, yeah, I just
(13:03):
oh my goodness, you just have to watch it. I
have no words. I have no words, but I just
keep coming back for more.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
For more from the Sunday Session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to News Talks at b from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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