March 22, 2025 • 9 mins
This week on The Sunday Panel, broadcaster and journalist Wilhelmina Shrimpton and resident economist at Opes Partners, Ed McKnight, joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
Have we dropped the ball on vaping legislation? New research reveals young people have used vapes as a gateway to smoking. Can we get this under control?
Simeon Brown has put the hard word on medical officers of health to stop writing about issues like fast food and “leading advocacy campaigns” on public health issues. What do we make of this? Could he have handled this better?
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB and it is.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Time for the panel and today I'm joined by a
broadcaster and journalist, Wilhelmine shrimp Didn Good morning, Willamine, Good morning,
Happy Sunday and to you. And we're joined by resident
economists at ope's partner's ed mcnightheh d.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Get A Francisco.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Great to speak to you, Good to have you both
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, it was really interesting. We started the show this
morning by looking at his study by some health researchers
here in Australia and they took a look at twenty
five years of data and the impact vaping had on
the smoking trends of fourteen to fifteen year olds and
what they what they learned was that we thought with
the introduction of the e cigarette, smoking would decline fast
(00:51):
and it hasn't. And they also learned that young people
have on those vapes a lot more they than we
thought they would be that the amount of vaping they're
doing day to day has increased dramatically. And of course
I think we're well, I don't know, I'm keen to
hear what you think I think we've completely drop the
(01:12):
ball on vaping legislation, and I wonder whether we've relied
on vaping too much to stop smoking. But I think
it might only really come down to these teams. I
think for a lot of other people, for older people,
will I mean it actually vaping may have been really
useful to get off smoking.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting discussion, and obviously the
reason why that this was brought in was because it
was designed to be the smoking cessation tool. But I
agree with you, we haven't just dropped the ball in
vaping legislation. I think we've been dropping it since vaping
was actually introduced and integrated into society, the regulations, so
it completely lacks in the beginning, you know, the fruit flavors,
(01:51):
the colorful marketing was allowed, and it was really attractive
for children. Then nicketeen levels are incredibly high in comparison
to other parts of the world. And then there were
shops just popping up what felt like on every corner
of every street within a stone's throw of schools. Before
there was restrictions came in and they had to be
a certain kind of distance between where those shops were
and where the schools were it was really easy to
(02:12):
pick up, and then the horse bolted and then we
tried to put it all back into Pandora's box, but
it was too little, too late. And I think a
prime example of that was I think it was only
about eighteen months ago that we reduced the maximum cap
on nicketeen levels from fifty milligrams per milla leader to
twenty in single use vapes, and that was bringing us
in line with other parts of the world. I could
(02:33):
honestly talk for so long about this. I did a
deep dive on this a few years ago when I
was in my full time journalism days, and as part
of that, I spoke to fourteen fifteen sixteen year olds.
They'd all vaped, and they did it regularly or they'd
tried it, and I even sent a fifteen year old
actor and this admittedly was about three years ago. I
sent them into a mix of dairries, petrol stations and
(02:54):
specialists vape shops, eight retailers in total. Six of them
six out of eight actually sold vape pods to her,
no questions asked. So it's no wonder that kids are
picking it up. And even though as regulations have been
brought in. I just feel like the enforcement of them,
particularly on those shores and sorry, in those stores, is
not district as it should be, and that's why keeps
(03:16):
are picking it up.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
No, Look, I've got teenagers and I know a lot
of teenagers, and my goodness that this was out of
control from the minute it hit. So it should have
we only allowed vaping to exist as a tool to
stop smoking. Should have we said you need to be
able to you know, your GP should be prescribing this
to you.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, I don't think you'd ever want to be that restrictive.
But what I would say is initially the government thought
that the existing legislation did cover this. I believe there
was a court case where Philip Morris, one of the
cigarette companies, ended up winning, and for two and a
half years there was no legislation. So it wasn't that
legislators had necessarily dropped the ball. They actually thought that
(03:59):
it already was covered. But one thing that I just
don't want to understate is how much smoking has decreased
over the last thirteen fourteen years. It's gone from sixteen
percent of adults down to seven percent today, quite a
massive nine percent drop, and one thing you've got to
keep in mind as well, Francesca, though, is what we
call the floor effect, which is basically, as we get
(04:20):
to lower and lower levels of smoking, it takes more
and more effort to eke out the last little bit
because the truth of the matter is some people are
just never going to give up no matter what and what.
This study didn't show. It didn't say, well, smoking's gone
up since Fates have come into New Zealand. It just
said that the rate of decline has slowed down. Some
(04:40):
of that is to be expected because those stragglers just
aren't going to.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Quit, But there is that concern ed. It's like that whole.
This isn't the same situation, but it's like that whole
You have a joint and the next thing you know,
you're on heroin. And that's that's what they're worried about.
They're worried about that the vapor could potentially lead to
smoking with the younger audience. Because I agree with you, look,
I think that as a tool to stop smoking for
(05:04):
the majority of your population, it can be. It's very useful.
But I think when we're looking at these younger kids
who have been targeted, it is rife out there with
this age group. We need to kind of try and
work out maybe how to differentiate between them and everybody
else trying to stop smoking.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, well, I think will have Been is right when
she's talking about setting a fifteen year old and then
being able to get a vape, because that's just not right,
is it. I mean, the fact that even still three
percent of fourteen fifteen year olds are smoking, that's really
concerning because that's a bit of forcement issue. They shouldn't
be able to get vapes, they shouldn't be able to
get cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
It's an education thing as well, I think, you know,
I think that it is obviously such a useful tool,
but we also don't have enough time. We're only just
getting to the point now where there's enough time to
actually have longitudinal studies to actually measure the health effects
of this. And that was the whole thing when we
brought it in, is it was this amazing tool to
get people off cigarettes, but we didn't know what the
long term effects of that was. And only now are
(06:01):
we kind of coming up to that time where we're
starting to learn and so it's all about educator around that.
And now that information has been drip fed. Hopefully the
tools will be there, but it might be a little
bit too little, too late. But any kind of measure
to try and improve what's happening now is obviously good.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think for some fourteen to fifteen year old's education
is great, but I don't think it hits home for
a lot of them when they can wander up to
the dairy and grab themselves, you know, illegally a bait
when they want to. I've found that it's come down
to peers. So what you've noticed is kids are all
trying it, and then it gets to a point where
if you really like sport, you've suddenly gone, wow, this
isn't making me feel great. I can really feel the
(06:39):
impact of this on my lungs. And they stop, and
then all of a sudden, everyone else arounds them go
suddenly he goes, oh, yeah, yah, it's okay, Yeah, I
don't have to do it. You know, like it almost
feels like it comes more from peers going, God, this
stuff's horrible. I'm really struggling with my sport, and everyone
else goes, yeah, sually, I don't really like it either,
and that is sort of having more of an impact.
I find on teenagers kind of stopping what their peers
(07:00):
are sort of saying about it and things. Anyway, let's
crack on. Simme and Brown came down on our medical
offices of health, our public health physicians who are required
by law to talk about things that deal with broader
health issues in local communities, because what might be right
(07:22):
in the cargo might not be the same for somewhere
on the West Coast or the North Island and things.
So we have people who work in regions medical offices
of health who you know, talk about what might be
best for that community, and it is their job to
talk about fast food and alcohol and smoking and vaping
and all these kinds of issues and things. So I
just think it was a bit tough that Simmy and
(07:42):
Brown came out and said, look, where did you prefer it?
If you didn't, could you just talk about these things
we'd like you to talk about. And if you are
going to talk about something, or you are going to
work in an advocacy role, which is their job, you're
going to have to pass that throw us first. Now, ed,
is he overstep in the mark or do you think
it's perfectly fine to tell these public health physicians how
to do their job.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Well, there's kind of two sides to it, because on
one side, you think, isn't there a big element of
free speech and if these people want to go out
and advocate for not having a McDonald's or advocating for
less vapor or whatever they think is the right thing
to do, surely that should be allowed to do it.
But then as an employer, I kind of look at
it from the other side and say, well, shouldn't the
government have the ability to say, these are our priorities,
(08:25):
we really care about vaccination, these are our goals. We
want you as public health professionals to help us meet
those goals, and so could you speak more about these
sorts of things because that is going to help the
organization meet the goals and that's what we're paying you for.
So I think there's probably an element of, you know,
should he be able to direct the public health professionals.
There's probably an element to it. Whether he did it
(08:47):
the right way, I think there's probably some big question
marks about that.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think that's exactly what they are doing, though, Wilhelmina.
These are the people who are out there talking about
things like immunization one hundred.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Percent, and you know, they are the ones on the
front line. They are going to know better than anybody
what the issues are that we actually need to focus on.
So might have their priorities, it might not actually be
what we need and what we want to see on
the frontline and what communities actually need. So I think
it's quite concerning that they are sort of being shepherded
and directed down a particular route when actually that should
(09:21):
be the ones who are finding their issues, flagging them first,
and actually you know, trying to motivate change and in
whichever the area they think needs focus on. So I
think it is a little concerning, and I really hope
that they aren't completely silenced.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Thank you so much, Willamina Shrimpton and Ed McKnight.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks they'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sunday Session podcast with Francesca Rudgin
from News Talks EDB and it is.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Time for the panel and today I'm joined by a
broadcaster and journalist, Wilhelmine shrimp Didn Good morning, Willamine, Good morning,
Happy Sunday and to you. And we're joined by resident
economists at ope's partner's ed mcnightheh d.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Get A Francisco.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Great to speak to you, Good to have you both
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, it was really interesting. We started the show this
morning by looking at his study by some health researchers
here in Australia and they took a look at twenty
five years of data and the impact vaping had on
the smoking trends of fourteen to fifteen year olds and
what they what they learned was that we thought with
the introduction of the e cigarette, smoking would decline fast
(00:51):
and it hasn't. And they also learned that young people
have on those vapes a lot more they than we
thought they would be that the amount of vaping they're
doing day to day has increased dramatically. And of course
I think we're well, I don't know, I'm keen to
hear what you think I think we've completely drop the
(01:12):
ball on vaping legislation, and I wonder whether we've relied
on vaping too much to stop smoking. But I think
it might only really come down to these teams. I
think for a lot of other people, for older people,
will I mean it actually vaping may have been really
useful to get off smoking.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yeah, definitely. It's such an interesting discussion, and obviously the
reason why that this was brought in was because it
was designed to be the smoking cessation tool. But I
agree with you, we haven't just dropped the ball in
vaping legislation. I think we've been dropping it since vaping
was actually introduced and integrated into society, the regulations, so
it completely lacks in the beginning, you know, the fruit flavors,
(01:51):
the colorful marketing was allowed, and it was really attractive
for children. Then nicketeen levels are incredibly high in comparison
to other parts of the world. And then there were
shops just popping up what felt like on every corner
of every street within a stone's throw of schools. Before
there was restrictions came in and they had to be
a certain kind of distance between where those shops were
and where the schools were it was really easy to
(02:12):
pick up, and then the horse bolted and then we
tried to put it all back into Pandora's box, but
it was too little, too late. And I think a
prime example of that was I think it was only
about eighteen months ago that we reduced the maximum cap
on nicketeen levels from fifty milligrams per milla leader to
twenty in single use vapes, and that was bringing us
in line with other parts of the world. I could
(02:33):
honestly talk for so long about this. I did a
deep dive on this a few years ago when I
was in my full time journalism days, and as part
of that, I spoke to fourteen fifteen sixteen year olds.
They'd all vaped, and they did it regularly or they'd
tried it, and I even sent a fifteen year old
actor and this admittedly was about three years ago. I
sent them into a mix of dairries, petrol stations and
(02:54):
specialists vape shops, eight retailers in total. Six of them
six out of eight actually sold vape pods to her,
no questions asked. So it's no wonder that kids are
picking it up. And even though as regulations have been
brought in. I just feel like the enforcement of them,
particularly on those shores and sorry, in those stores, is
not district as it should be, and that's why keeps
(03:16):
are picking it up.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
No, Look, I've got teenagers and I know a lot
of teenagers, and my goodness that this was out of
control from the minute it hit. So it should have
we only allowed vaping to exist as a tool to
stop smoking. Should have we said you need to be
able to you know, your GP should be prescribing this
to you.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, I don't think you'd ever want to be that restrictive.
But what I would say is initially the government thought
that the existing legislation did cover this. I believe there
was a court case where Philip Morris, one of the
cigarette companies, ended up winning, and for two and a
half years there was no legislation. So it wasn't that
legislators had necessarily dropped the ball. They actually thought that
(03:59):
it already was covered. But one thing that I just
don't want to understate is how much smoking has decreased
over the last thirteen fourteen years. It's gone from sixteen
percent of adults down to seven percent today, quite a
massive nine percent drop, and one thing you've got to
keep in mind as well, Francesca, though, is what we
call the floor effect, which is basically, as we get
(04:20):
to lower and lower levels of smoking, it takes more
and more effort to eke out the last little bit
because the truth of the matter is some people are
just never going to give up no matter what and what.
This study didn't show. It didn't say, well, smoking's gone
up since Fates have come into New Zealand. It just
said that the rate of decline has slowed down. Some
(04:40):
of that is to be expected because those stragglers just
aren't going to.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Quit, But there is that concern ed. It's like that whole.
This isn't the same situation, but it's like that whole
You have a joint and the next thing you know,
you're on heroin. And that's that's what they're worried about.
They're worried about that the vapor could potentially lead to
smoking with the younger audience. Because I agree with you, look,
I think that as a tool to stop smoking for
(05:04):
the majority of your population, it can be. It's very useful.
But I think when we're looking at these younger kids
who have been targeted, it is rife out there with
this age group. We need to kind of try and
work out maybe how to differentiate between them and everybody
else trying to stop smoking.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Yeah, well, I think will have Been is right when
she's talking about setting a fifteen year old and then
being able to get a vape, because that's just not right,
is it. I mean, the fact that even still three
percent of fourteen fifteen year olds are smoking, that's really
concerning because that's a bit of forcement issue. They shouldn't
be able to get vapes, they shouldn't be able to
get cigarettes.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
It's an education thing as well, I think, you know,
I think that it is obviously such a useful tool,
but we also don't have enough time. We're only just
getting to the point now where there's enough time to
actually have longitudinal studies to actually measure the health effects
of this. And that was the whole thing when we
brought it in, is it was this amazing tool to
get people off cigarettes, but we didn't know what the
long term effects of that was. And only now are
(06:01):
we kind of coming up to that time where we're
starting to learn and so it's all about educator around that.
And now that information has been drip fed. Hopefully the
tools will be there, but it might be a little
bit too little, too late. But any kind of measure
to try and improve what's happening now is obviously good.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think for some fourteen to fifteen year old's education
is great, but I don't think it hits home for
a lot of them when they can wander up to
the dairy and grab themselves, you know, illegally a bait
when they want to. I've found that it's come down
to peers. So what you've noticed is kids are all
trying it, and then it gets to a point where
if you really like sport, you've suddenly gone, wow, this
isn't making me feel great. I can really feel the
(06:39):
impact of this on my lungs. And they stop, and
then all of a sudden, everyone else arounds them go
suddenly he goes, oh, yeah, yah, it's okay, Yeah, I
don't have to do it. You know, like it almost
feels like it comes more from peers going, God, this
stuff's horrible. I'm really struggling with my sport, and everyone
else goes, yeah, sually, I don't really like it either,
and that is sort of having more of an impact.
I find on teenagers kind of stopping what their peers
(07:00):
are sort of saying about it and things. Anyway, let's
crack on. Simme and Brown came down on our medical
offices of health, our public health physicians who are required
by law to talk about things that deal with broader
health issues in local communities, because what might be right
(07:22):
in the cargo might not be the same for somewhere
on the West Coast or the North Island and things.
So we have people who work in regions medical offices
of health who you know, talk about what might be
best for that community, and it is their job to
talk about fast food and alcohol and smoking and vaping
and all these kinds of issues and things. So I
just think it was a bit tough that Simmy and
(07:42):
Brown came out and said, look, where did you prefer it?
If you didn't, could you just talk about these things
we'd like you to talk about. And if you are
going to talk about something, or you are going to
work in an advocacy role, which is their job, you're
going to have to pass that throw us first. Now, ed,
is he overstep in the mark or do you think
it's perfectly fine to tell these public health physicians how
to do their job.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Well, there's kind of two sides to it, because on
one side, you think, isn't there a big element of
free speech and if these people want to go out
and advocate for not having a McDonald's or advocating for
less vapor or whatever they think is the right thing
to do, surely that should be allowed to do it.
But then as an employer, I kind of look at
it from the other side and say, well, shouldn't the
government have the ability to say, these are our priorities,
(08:25):
we really care about vaccination, these are our goals. We
want you as public health professionals to help us meet
those goals, and so could you speak more about these
sorts of things because that is going to help the
organization meet the goals and that's what we're paying you for.
So I think there's probably an element of, you know,
should he be able to direct the public health professionals.
There's probably an element to it. Whether he did it
(08:47):
the right way, I think there's probably some big question
marks about that.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think that's exactly what they are doing, though, Wilhelmina.
These are the people who are out there talking about
things like immunization one hundred.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Percent, and you know, they are the ones on the
front line. They are going to know better than anybody
what the issues are that we actually need to focus on.
So might have their priorities, it might not actually be
what we need and what we want to see on
the frontline and what communities actually need. So I think
it's quite concerning that they are sort of being shepherded
and directed down a particular route when actually that should
(09:21):
be the ones who are finding their issues, flagging them first,
and actually you know, trying to motivate change and in
whichever the area they think needs focus on. So I
think it is a little concerning, and I really hope
that they aren't completely silenced.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Thank you so much, Willamina Shrimpton and Ed McKnight.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
For more from the Sunday session with Francesca Rudkin, listen
live to news Talks they'd be from nine am Sunday,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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