March 27, 2025 • 34 mins
Wellington Central MP Tamatha Paul is under fire for her comments at a 'radical alternative to policing event'. She claimed "Wellington people do not want to see police officers everywhere" and all beat police do is "wait for homeless people to leave their spot, pack up their stuff and throw it in the bin". Are these comments out of touch, or reflecting a mood in the city?
Also, the Commerce Commission will be tasked with keeping an eye on Wellington Water until a new water entity comes into force. Is this the right move?
To answer those questions, Wellington City Councillor Tim Brown and Hutt City mayor Campbell Barry joined Nick Mills for Friday Faceoff.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said B Wellington's official week interview. It's
Friday face with Qudovic Property Management, a better rental experience
for all. Visit Qudovic dot code on ins Head Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm not even getting time to the music to get
into it. I'm getting right into it, joining us Friday
face Off This week is Lower Up Mayor Campbell Berry.
Good morning, Campbell, Good morning. How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm good. Great to be here. I hear you're up
against some opposition. Now you've got some real opposition. Karen
came in and tried to sell her awares to our listeners,
and you know she's going to be the next mayor.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
I know it's good to have competition. I think that
there's still some time to go until nominations open up,
so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Oh, so the nominations aren't She hasn't even put a
name down officially yet. No.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
No, so we're still about ten weeks before nominations open.
So yeah, a little bit early, but yeah, we'll see
what comes out of the book.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We will see what comes out of the woodwork. And
I probably it's like to think that you'll probably be
still running and still be around, but I know you
want to make your announcement coming up and Wellington City
councilor Tim Brown. Now, Tim, driving to the show this morning,
very early in the morning, I said the first question
I want to ask Tim Brown because I was one
of those people out in Wellington Land that pays their rates,
(01:26):
tries to pay their rates, and thought, ah, Tim Brown,
won't that be fantastic on Wellington City Council. Now, if
you had your time again, would you have made the
same decision and stood for Wellington City Council.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
If only you, I'd be putting on my money on
bitcoin or something if I had a perfect hindsight. Look,
I really enjoyed my time a council. I mean it's
been absolutely fascinating and I'm very glad I've done it,
and I would really encourage other people with my sort
of background to give it a shot because you can
be very effective, but not in this sort of transformative way,
(02:04):
because you are only one person out of eighteen voters
around the table, and so the most critical attribute that
you bring to the table is an ability to collaborate.
If you can't collaborate, You're going to be irrelevant. And
some of my council colleagues are definitely not collaborators that
I would say they're basically irrelevant. You know, I would
have liked to have been a lot more effective, especially
(02:25):
around my passion project, which was housing. I'd have liked
to have been able to see us build more housing
for both community and social and affordable users. I don't
think I've been as effective in that area as I
would have liked to have been, but I feel I
have actually done something to make it worth my while,
to make it worth the community as well for my
being there.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, then I'm going to ask you, will you stand again?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
No, I've got a number of domestic responsibilities which just
mean that I wouldn't be able to put in the
time that I would I need to because this has
been a really sixty hour week type job, you know
I've been. I tend to be literally working reading the
papers until you know, often well at to midnight, seven
days a week, and I don't even do as much
(03:09):
of the kind of community stuff as I should be doing.
And I just won't be able to do sixty hours
a week for the next three years, so I just
feel i'd be better off to step down for now.
You know, I'm not saying I won't run again.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And it's a good point. Why would you, I mean,
that's a good point. You still think you've got somebody
to offer. It's just not right now. The timing is
not right for you.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So it's not been a bad experience.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
No, it's been a great experience, and i'd really recommend
other people I have a look at it because it
is actually very interesting and very rewarding because almost all
of the people not all of them, but almost all
of the people in the room are really people with
extremely good aspirations in terms of what they're trying to
achieve for Wellington. So you are working with like minded
people if you like.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Great, Right, let's move on to some topics. Thanks for that.
I mean I know that that would have been quite
difficult for you to come out and get fired up
the first question of the show. But obviously I wanted
to know, and I'm sure if I wanted to know,
our listeners want to know. Well, it's central. MP Timoth
of Paul is under fire for her comments as at
a Radical Alternative policing event. She claimed Wellington people do
(04:13):
not want to see police officers everywhere and the Beat
police doing all our doing is waiting for homeless people
to move off their spots and they pack up this
stuff and throw it into a bin. Campbell Berry, I
want to ask you on this one, what were your thoughts?
Are these comments completely out of touch?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I don't agree with Tamitha. I think the police presence
out there in our streets is a good thing. If
they're not welcome here in Wellington City, we'll take them
in law Hut.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Do you have them in lahart On?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We do, Yeah, they do. I know this Beat squad
has been doing a bit of workout in the Hut.
It's made a real difference, particularly for retails Taylor's and
some of the petty crime issues that have been happening.
I think a police presence is a good thing. I mean,
I think Tamitha is speaking for a certain constituency which
have had bad experiences with the police, So I just
want to acknowledge that. But at the same time, I
(05:02):
think a police did a great job, probably on the
best police forces in the world. Particularly last ten to
fifteen years, we've seen a police force that really reflects
our community as well from a diversity point of view
of who's employed and who's out there doing the work.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Tim, I feel strongly that the BEAT police have made
a difference in the CBD and Wellington. I really do.
And I'm talking to people on the show, on the
business panel and stuff. They all say the same thing.
Young retail workers feel more secure knowing as a police presence.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
What are you hearing, a heart of us said, I agree,
I mean especially the eastern suburbs from MIRRAMARKKILBERTI the business
groups out there have been strong advocates of BEAT presents
in their areas. But at the same time, to go
to TAM's point, part of the mean a large part
of the issue really are Wellington is of course hopeless
people and that means that the police have to work
(05:50):
very very closely with the City Mission to make sure
that they are able to relocate people back to the
City Mission to be cared for because a lot of
these people have special, high needs and difficult people and
that it's the working with the City Mission with other
social agencies which is a very critical part of the
police role. And my observation is that the police do
(06:12):
a very good job at that area, but of course
they could always do better. I think Pat tam is
kind of bringing her perspective to the thing, which is
necessarily an on the ground one of what is people
of Wellington are actually feeling and what is actually happening
in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Do you have the numbers in Lower Hut of homeless
people that we have in Wanted Do you have them
on your streets? Do you have them living on in
outside retailers? Not so much.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Homeless issue is probably more of a hidden one in
Lower Hut, and I suppose those who are on the
street usually do have accommodation to be able to stay in.
We know that there are addiction mental health issues attached
to it as well. The police do navigate those situations
quite carefully, working with us in our City Safety Team
and also with some of those other agencies as well,
(06:57):
but certainly not to the same extent.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Tamitha did have a point that she grew up in
Tokara where there was a bit of a distrust to
the police, where they would see the police reacting. Do
you think that there is some sort of feeling within
the youth or the people that aren't happy with their lives,
a lot more distrust for the police than we think
there is.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I would say that's also certainly correct. I mean I
come from the Springbook, you know, protest error, and the police,
through the Red Squad and whatnot in that era definitely
cast a shadow over their reputations. And you know then
subsequently were the Louise Nichols revelations and whatnot. So back
in the day, the police were to be feared, and
(07:41):
because they had this arbitrary and sometimes brutal ability to
be able to actually, you know, transgress people's rights, and
so I have a you know, that is a background
of perspective, if you like, which I'll never get rid of.
Because if you're actually subject to something like the police
sing and it's badly done because of their power, that,
(08:01):
of course, do.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
You think that affected you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Yeah, I honestly believe I think that if you actually
because if you're actually subject to somebody where you've got
no ability to fight back and they've got the ability
to literally punch you in the face, that is going
to make you extremely suspicious about that somebody wearing that
uniform for the rest of your life, and I think
that's probably And so I just talk about something which happened,
you know, forty years ago, right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That's affected you, though personally.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
It's always made me somewhat suspicious. Now, all I'm saying is, Adam,
but I have had nothing but good experiences for the
last you know, twenty odd years, right.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But you've got that in your back of your mind
and you think about it all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
So if I come from from time's perspective, from Tokoroha,
and I've seen some bad behavior by the police, and
I've got no idea, you know, never seen any police
behavior at all of Tokoha, then I can understand why
she has a perspective which is different to what most
people are Wellington is because most people in Wellington have
only good experiences with the police.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Then back to you, Campbell, because you know you grew
up in way Nuam Marta, you would have seen some
of the hardest stuff in our region, let's be honest,
without having any cracket, which I love, by the way,
and you've got some real rough areas and lower heart
as well, so there'll be a lot of your people
that would feel exactly the same way. Wouldn't you.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, And I think that's the really
important point that Tim's making is that Tamifer is speaking
for a certain group of people who have had those
experiences with police and when they see that uniform, they
have a certain reaction to that. Yeah, totally and absolutely
there are totally people in our community that have that.
I think my perspective is is that the police have
(09:38):
done pretty incredible work over the last ten to fifteen
years and changing that, but there will always be that
element of potentially generational, intergenerational impacts of the way that
police have gone about things.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, intergenerational thing you see. That's where I mean, I'm
amazed at your story to him, because I would you know,
your demographic, your societal piece of society. You would think, oh, no,
I've got nothing but to shake hands with the polices.
I will, but you've got something that springbook two. We'll
talk off air on that one, because I think that
(10:12):
did have some relevance to how a lot of people
feel towards the police. Have definitely had changed my family's life.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
This is news talk said the breaking news.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
The local government minister is taking action on Wellington water.
Simon Watts says he's not satisfied with the water company's
progress on issues identified in two reports earlier this month,
which found it was potentially overpaying for work by the millions.
He's now imposing regulations on the agency by calling in
the Commerce Commission to monitor the water company by making
(10:48):
it report its delivery and financial management. It's the same
setup that other regions will also face under the government's
Local Water Done Well policy, only earlier for Wellington due
to its recent issues that's just been released that piece
of information. Luckily, I've got some people in the studio
that we can talk about. Do you want me to
(11:10):
do that again? Or are they right with it? You've
got that? Okay, let's get into it. Let's get into it.
We're Friday face off of Tim Brown and Campbell Berry.
I'm going to start with you, Campbell on this because
obviously you're very connected to this organization. What is that?
What's your reaction to this information? How when did you know?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah, the Minister gave me a call this morning to
give me a heads up that he was writing a letter.
Too willing to Water to announce this. I mean, I'd
have to obviously digest what that means. Exactly we were
talking just before. I don't think the commis Commission actually
geared up to be able to provide potentially the type
of oversight or support that has mentioned in the letter. However,
(11:50):
we'll just see what that looks like. There is already
requirements under the Local Government Act to be able to
provide information as necessary to government on these types of issues.
And at the end of the day, willing To Water
it shouldn't be in existence from the first of July
next year. So the last thing I'd want is this
to potentially be a distraction and setting it all up
(12:10):
and then actually a new entity or new entities will
be formed after the festial Lie next year. So we'll
need to just comprehend it and then look at what
our next steps are.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Is there problems within the organizations? Are they as bad
as what we're seeing or hearing or feeling.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Look, the structure of Willington Water is totally broken. It's
why I've been an advocate for reform for the last
five years. The way that it's set up, six different
shiolding councils, six different budgets, six different plans was a
recipe for disaster. So we've been trying to work through
that manage that in a way that we're still delivering
on the infrastructure that the region needs, but of course
(12:47):
there has been failings, so my viewers, we need to
keep eye on the price and that is a new
water entity hopefully the entire region, though I know there
is different perspectives on that, and Wellington City in particular
are looking at a couple of different options.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Now, Tim Brown, you haven't had the advantage of being
rung by the local government minister are and told this
is going to happen. So you've just read it the
same as from when I've read it. What is your reaction?
I mean, you were quite passionate in the ad break.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
When we discovered we've got the information from way to
Water about the deficiencies and their contracting regime. One of
the things which I very strongly advocated for was that
Watter City councilor should appoint an observer to Willing to
Water to basically see how they were going to restructure
their contracting regime because the problem which they have at
(13:38):
the moment is putin Hogan is I think they deserve
to be called is a monopoly arrangement and this is
what obviously the Commerce Commission is going to be looking
at is the contracting arrangement that putin Hogan have managed
to actually put in place one which is inimicable to
competition and therefore against the Commerce Act. So what Willy
to Water have told us is that they're going to
(14:01):
restructure their contracting so that there is more contestability and
they'll be you know, blow up prices will eventuate. That's
the theory. What I wanted was that we would put
it in place an expert in this field to monitor
that performance, to make sure that it was being delivered
according to that promise. Now for the Minister to get
(14:21):
in the Cobbs Commission to effectively do the same job,
I think is both a sledgehabber to crack a nut
on one level, but also a sledgehabber which is not
equipped to do the job. I mean, they have the
ability to be able to see whether there has been
more breaking behavior by way of contractors colluding you know
(14:42):
as they but not.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I was told on Wednesday night when I was at
an event by a very reputable Wellington company, very reputable
Wellington company, by one of its owners saying they haven't
been able to break into Warrington water. They they just
just can't get in. It's just not even It's like
it's like, I mean, you say in jest you called them.
I'm not going to say what you called them because
(15:05):
I'd lose my job.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Put No can I say, like how inappropriate that is?
And it's an example of you know, the trialish type
comments that have happened on this. These reports were serious,
they did identify major issues. But you know, in response
to Tim's comment, it actually said when it came to
Fulton Hogan's work and regis the reactive leaks, Yes that
cost has gone up, but it is comparable with the
(15:28):
rest of the country. The problem was on the panel.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It didn't say it was comparable to reason three times
as much.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
No, no, no, they didn't say that. It said it
was comparable. Yes, costs have gone up, but it was
in regards to every kilometer of pipe the cost of
doing repairs. And in the Wellington region our pipes are
stuffed versus christ Church where their pipes arect.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
What do you say to the company that I was
talking to, It says they can't get a foot in
the door and they don't want to look at the price.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
That's absolutely correct. So so just let me finish the
problem that the reports identified was the contractor panel and
that was delivering the renewals the replacement of pipes. That
is different to fixing leaks and the work of Fulton
Hogan one hundred percent. There hasn't been competitive tension there.
That needs to be explored further to make sure that
councils haven't been overcharged and that work is currently underway.
(16:14):
But comments like that to one of our major construction
companies in New Zealand, it's just incredibly unhelpful and it
really does, I think, put the debate and the issues
in the gutter.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Tim Do you believe that this intervention will make any
difference at all? Can they fix it? Will they fix it?
And how quickly?
Speaker 5 (16:34):
No?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The COMBOSCE Commission is not equipped to do anything in
this regard, especially the time frame which you're actually looking at.
I think if they had appointed independent experts with specialist
skills and contracting, that would have actually ensure that the
contracting remediation which Willington Water has promised us would have
actually occurred to create contestability. And to go to your point,
(16:57):
there's been a very large and long standing complaint by
the Wellington Plumbers Association that their members are not allowed
to actually remediate pipe problem. So it's not just in
terms of priparate murals, it is also fixing leaks. So
a lot of a lot of contractors have been excluded
from the process and undoubtedly it has meant that there's
been a lot of inefficient work has been done on
(17:18):
this job.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Obviously, you are very passionate about this, and I want
to get to I've got to go to a news break,
but I want to get to it quickly. I mean
for you to come out and call them the names
you've called them. You're obviously like had enough, so tell
me why.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Because Wellington City Council has repeatedly demanded information from Wellington Water.
We have no right to demand it from Fulton Hogan
or stick to their real labe.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
We have no right.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
We have to get it from Wellington Water. They have
repeatedly refused to do so, and then so we paid
for a field force report of their contracting regime and
their asset management regime, which found major scale deficiencies. We
Wellington City Council then imposed, through its Statement of corporate Intent,
a requirement that they do the Deloitte's analysis of value
for money, which is what has actually turned up now.
(18:06):
So it's only be through our external intervention that we
have obliged Wellington Water to a dead defy and admit
to faults of their systems. And now they say they've
got to fix her. But it's very much at the
bottom of the cliff because obviously millions of dollars have
been wasted.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, look, the reports are very clear. What they identify
is the structure of the panel and the renewal work.
And just to be clear, the council that has done
the most renewal work over the last five years that's
replacing big kilometers of pipe is Lower Hut, not Wellington City,
it's Lower Hut. So we have concerns about exactly what
that means and we want answers so that that is
(18:41):
on its way and we'll have reports coming back to council.
But what I would say, particularly when it comes to
the plumber's point, I've met with plumbers in the Hut
valion in Wellington around what is their role could they
help with this issue? They actually don't want to touch
the mains network. They just want to be able to
get on with the plumbing jobs that they have, and
we've actually looked to set up a better process within
Wellington Water to allow them to do that, basically fixing
(19:04):
leaks at sort of the Toby where it's sort of
in that gray area. So that type of work has
been happening. But of course there are so many issues
to tackle when it comes to the wall into water
because of its structure, and that's why we need this
new entity asap.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
All right, Tim Brown and Campbell Berry are on Friday
face off. We've just heard the news. As Max said,
local government, Oh my gosh, you bloodman, councils, can you
run anything? It's all your faulted and it can't you
just sort things out something? Right? Rate caps? Let's talk
rate caps because I love this idea. I'm sure I'm
(19:38):
sure a lot of out your constituents both would love
it as well. The government is considering introducing rate caps
on rates increases, but Local Government New Zealand says it's
a bad idea. Campbell Berry, come on, you the head
of that organization. Why is it a bad idea? Why
shouldn't me, as a rate payer be able to plan
my future knowing exactly what my rates are going to cost,
(19:59):
because at the moment I don't even know whether I
can live in my own house past next year.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I would say it's great politics, it's pisspoor poly simple
as that rate caps simply don't work. Why well examples
in Australia right when they have put in rates caps. Yes,
you have seen a reduction in the types of increases
potentially we've seen here in the Wellington region over a
three four year period and you may not see a
huge amount of change over that period of time. But
what it ultimately does, as it drives down the level
(20:26):
of service that you will see in your communities in
regards to the basic core services that are provided, it
will often then create a further backlog in the infrastructure investment.
It's a bit of a race to the bottom. I
would say that the government is focusing on the wrong thing.
They have talked about benchmarking and transparency around where your
rates dollar goes. I want thousand percent support that. And
(20:47):
actually in South Australia they've taken that approach and there's
been a level of rates capping in there. But if
we're benchmarking with each other, where you can see how
your council performs for every dollar that you give them
versus Ookland or Hamilton or wherever. That is going to
create I think a good competitive tension between the councils
and actually rate payers will be able to transparently understand
(21:08):
where the money goes and how it compares to others.
Rates capping, honestly is really really a race to the bottom,
but you won't see the impact of it until sort
of three to five years time.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Or conversely, Tom Brown, we could actually have set rules
that all the must have get spent before or the
want to have, and everybody knows where they are. Couldn't
it make sense? Does it make sense? You're a respected businessman.
If we actually said you can only put your rent
up by three percent, you'd understand that.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Look, the problem is the must has cost vastly more
than the nice stuff. You know, the amount of money
which relative city council spends on the core services is
colossally overweghs what it spends on the bits that people
regard as contentious, such as you know, cycle ways and whatnot.
And whenever we try and cut back on something such
as you know, the Begonia House of related Is is
(22:00):
a good example where a group of councilors, certainly myself included,
would would say that that does not of tens of
millions of rate payers dollars to be spent on it.
Of course, the public turn up and demand that Thegodia
House has saved in many of the councilors or sufficiently
large numbers of the councilors to go, okay, well we're
going to listen to the public and we're going to
vote for twenty million bucks or whatever for the Bagodia House.
(22:22):
That the trouble is, as Campbell said, is that fundamentally
the rates model is insufficient. It's a bad model. I
mean the amount of tax that local government takes as
a percentage of GDP or as a percentage of total
government sector taxing is I think it's the lowest of
the OECD. So local government in New Zealand is a
(22:43):
tiny relative to elsewhere New Zealanders. Of course, you go
to Sydney, you go to Melbourne, you go to London,
you go to wherever, and you look at all the
facilities which local government provides and you go, well, why
can't we have all this stuff in New Zealand. The
trouble is The only tool we have to pay for
this stuff is either user pays or rates, nothing else.
Why isn't the government introducing controls on our rates? Would
(23:04):
be absurd unless they're willing to do something like give
us a share of GST. There are so many they
should be other revenue mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Is in the government helping local government? Why is this
such a big difference between Why are they not saying
to you've got this big, huge water problem to sort out,
We're going to give.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
You does ZEI look? I mean I've contacted Barbara Edmonds
and Nikola Willis and multiple occasions to ask them for
assistance around our under insurance problem, which is another of
my bugbear issues. And you know, Walington City Council's level
of insurance is something like fifteen percent of the potential
damage that would occur from a major event. Christich City
(23:41):
Council fourteen billion dollars worth of spend. We have about
a billion dollars worth of insurance now have now Nikola
hasn't even replied to my emails. Barbara Edmonds sent me
a note saying she's too busy. The reality is that
local central government doesn't want to get involved in these
messy issues. And I don't know why it's not political,
There isn't any political capital in it. But basically we
(24:03):
are disregarded with disdain by central government.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I'm going to ask you, and it's not on the list,
but I'm going to give you a tingue and have
a break. I'm going to ask you very quickly, why
do we not have the same system and they have
in Australia where the so called councils have a hell
of a lot more power and a hell of a
lot more money to spend and run the cities. I mean,
that's basically what happens over there compared to here, isn't it?
Friday face off with Campbell Berry and Tim Brown. Campbell's
(24:26):
obviously mayor of Lower Heart City as they like to
call it nowadays. When I grew up, it was Lowerhart.
They've changed it and made it a little bit trend do it?
And you should? What can you repeat that? Because I
didn't have your micro.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
So I definitely still call it Lower Heart do you?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Because last time we were on we were talking you
are Hut City, Hut City, Hut City.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So it's the it's the council name, but the city
is called Lower Heart it's a weird one.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And Wellington City Council we haven't changed the name. It
surprises me. You haven't changed the name of Wellington.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
To we have changed them.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Happened?
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I thought we have changed it. We've got a new
you know, longer to be Atara. You know that is
the new name.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It's not it get with it. No, it's called Wellington.
It's always going to be cool. But I'm never going
to get with its name.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It after the freaking general who won a battle two
hundred years ago. We've got to move on.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh gosh, I have to learn how to spell it.
I don't just learned how to spell Wellington. Legislation introduced
roadside drug testing past in Parliament on Wednesday night, but
the Greens to party Mario a concerned that saliva tests
won't properly won't properly prove impairment. Tim Brown, what are
your thoughts on this? I mean, do you have any thoughts?
Are you? Are you a guy that wants to actually
(25:31):
drug test drug drivers as they go home? Absolutely out
of it?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I mean, honestly, I've got no thoughts at all about
this one, because I just really don't understand that the issues.
I understand you've got a properly, you.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Don't have it. You don't understand that you're stone out
of your head and you're driving you have an.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Accident, though I totally get it. I mean, but that
obviously that's not what they're trying to do, because if
you've had the accident, they can then test you up
and no.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
No, but I mean they can prevent the accidents because
they can test you driving down the road completely off
your head the heart.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Before they do anything mandatory, I think they need to
do a bit of the server to find out how
many people are driving who've had a pill for whatever
reason could be, you know, because of medication or something
or other, who are going to be caught by this test,
who are not in any way impaired, because clearly taking
a pill and being impaired and not necessarily the same thing.
So I don't see this as as a logical policy essentially,
(26:24):
But if they've got some way of actually showing that
the test finds if you're impaired, fine and dandy. But
it doesn't seem to me that is actually likely.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I reckon that you might be sitting next to the
meor too much. You're starting to get some real green
ideas here.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
It's just logic.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
It's just logic, I would say. You know, when you
look at the stats, I think it's something like thirty
percent of deaths on the road are from drivers who
are impaired. That's a serious problem. So I fully support
the police having the power of being able to do
drug testing. I think that some of the concerns raised
by the Greens to party Mardi can be mitigated by
having processes where you you know, the testing later on
(27:04):
to check whether or not there'll be any penalties on
the person as appropriate. And it's a problem out there,
so we need to do something about it. Seems a
bit crazy to me that if a policeman pulls over
a driver and they're clearly impaired, but they don't have
the tools to actually stop them from driving and putting
other people's safety at risk is a bit absurd, So
I fully support it.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I tend to agree with you. This story really did
upset me. And eleven year old nonverbal autistic girl was arrested,
taken to a mental health facility, and injected with anti
psychotic medication after be mistaken for someone in their twenties.
Health New Zealand can't yet explain how it happened. Campbell Berry,
When you first read this story, how did it make
(27:46):
you feel as a mayor of Hut City.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, I mean I seen the headline and I honestly
had a W two TF moment. I thought, what on
earth has happened here? I thought it was maybe clickbait. Actually,
when I seen the headline and when I read the
story and understood what had happened, I mean, this is
absolutely terrible and just so unacceptable. So I would expect
there to be not just fast justice for this family
(28:10):
and for this young girl, but a real deep dive
into making sure this never happens again. I mean that
it is a family's worst nightmare.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And tim we seem to hear these stories about mental
health all the time. Do we really in this country
take mental health seriously?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
I think we do take it seriously, but it does
require a lot of resourcing, and I suspect that what
will have happened here is some very under pressure clinicians
will have been presented with a difficult situation and have
just responded because of limited time and ability to be
able to process what they were really seeing in front
of them. So, I mean, obviously it's an awful thing
to have happened, but I suspect it actually relates to
(28:50):
under resourcing of the necessary service.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Right now, I want to finish off for something a
bit lighter. Last week I told the story on the
show about setting up the Saints game, which you went to.
Tom and me, my son and a management member had
two cars van and the car fully fully loaded up
with stuff, lots of heavy stuff, and we were lugging
away setting up the stadium, and there was a member
(29:15):
of the management of the team shooting around, mucking around,
watching us. And then the team all walked in and
only two players, high high end players actually helped. All
the other players walk past all the loading and loading
out without even stopping and helping. And I asked the question,
and I'm going to ask you both, Campbell Society change.
(29:38):
Would you walk past someone doing a job outside the
city council not offer to help.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Oh, it's a tricky one, I would say. You know,
I coached a rugby team a couple of years ago,
and whenever there was jobs then to be done. These
are thirteen fourteen year olds, so they were always there
ready to help. That was but that was sort of
the sort of culture we had within that team. So
I'm gonna put it back on you, Nick. Maybe there
needs to be some conversations within the Saints to say, hey,
(30:05):
but maybe you know, do you do muck in and
you make sure you do things. But I think generally
from a generational perspective, you know, I've found young people
to be pretty good. Sometimes they need a nudge. I mean,
sometimes that's funny, little established.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
My wife said the same thing, because I was very
upset by it, you know, I just thought the culture
was wrong and everything. And she said, why didn't you
just down around and tell them to help you? And
I said, well, that's that's not the point, Tim Brown.
What did you think, mad me telling you that little story?
Did you think that it's a cultural thing? Or is
it a youth thing? Or is it that's not my
job thing?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Maybe it's you. Maybe they just didn't like you. No,
I mean, honestly, I just think I think the youth
of today are fantastic. And I mean all the ones
who I meet in the various spaces which I occupy,
and you know, definitely by children in this category is
they just couldn't be more helpful, So.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
You would your kids, because that's what That's what got
me through this moment without getting upset with myself. Is
I knew that my kids would help. Would your kids help.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, yeah, I would say definitely in that situation, but
they might help me to help you.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Maybe it's a bit scaring that exactly stop around on me.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
It could all be about you afraid that well.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I can tell you that the two highest profile players,
Isaiah Leafa and Sean Bruce, did stop, put their bags
down and stopped. They were the star players and they
stopped and helped.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
So the Australians helped them. The keywis didn't. That's what
you're telling me.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, well, one Australian one KEI we won Wellingtonian properly
brought up Wellingtonian time for a break. I don't know
how that cup put back on me. You guys, I
know I'll put you in the under the spotlight, but
it didn't have to come back at me like this.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
The Friday Tim Brown Campbell Berry Friday is my favorite
part of the show is when on a Friday, when
we do hots and knots, Campbell Berry give me your
hots and knots.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
We've got Georgina Campbell starting in my office on Monday.
We had a coffee with her this morning. Very please
to have her there and I know she'll be dearly missed,
but we're excited giving it.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
And now, how you got on this program after you
pitched her off us? I didn't It's not something that
I had anything to do with and didn't clear. But
after losing Georgina Campbell, I don't know how you got
on the show. Okay, once you're not hot.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Not or we have covered the topic, but was absolutely
what happened to the eleven year old girl. And I
just think that it's just so unacceptable acknowledging Tim's points
around the clearly as a failure in the system there.
We need to get that right.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Tim Brown, your hots are not hot.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Definitely Cuba doper. You can see my T shirt.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I was lately looking at your T shirt saying what
a nice T shirt. I didn't realize it's that Cuba dooper.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
So that's tomorrow and weare It's meant to be great,
and of course also on Sunday, so that will be fantastic.
You know, the best street celebration in New Zealand every
year not I think is actually this weird thing about
the you know, the Poseidon javelin incident, which our military
forces are involved with the Americans and various other countries
against the Yemenis, and the way the Americans you know,
(33:11):
read about doing that the debate about critical decisions publicly
and then all lied to you know, their version of
the Select Committee basically sort of bullshitting that in fact
they hadn't actually you know, let anything out of the bag.
I mean, I mean, the reason I think that is
a really major issue is when people behave that badly
(33:32):
and they are the leaders of the free world, you
just realize the world order is changing because we just
can't trust those sort of people.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Can't trust anybody, that's the problem. Well, you can trust you,
I could trust you. I've got to trust my job
and I've got to So I'm sorry to cut you
off a little bit on that one, but we've got
to go to an ad break before the news. Tim
Brown canel Berry, thank you very much for joining us.
Have a great weekend and go Cooper doo. But I
hope you enjoyed. Last time I saw you was at
that event, so Hopefully I'll see you again on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from news Talk said B Wellington's official week interview. It's
Friday face with Qudovic Property Management, a better rental experience
for all. Visit Qudovic dot code on ins Head Thursday.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm not even getting time to the music to get
into it. I'm getting right into it, joining us Friday
face Off This week is Lower Up Mayor Campbell Berry.
Good morning, Campbell, Good morning. How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm good.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm good. Great to be here. I hear you're up
against some opposition. Now you've got some real opposition. Karen
came in and tried to sell her awares to our listeners,
and you know she's going to be the next mayor.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
I know it's good to have competition. I think that
there's still some time to go until nominations open up,
so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Oh, so the nominations aren't She hasn't even put a
name down officially yet. No.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
No, so we're still about ten weeks before nominations open.
So yeah, a little bit early, but yeah, we'll see
what comes out of the book.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
We will see what comes out of the woodwork. And
I probably it's like to think that you'll probably be
still running and still be around, but I know you
want to make your announcement coming up and Wellington City
councilor Tim Brown. Now, Tim, driving to the show this morning,
very early in the morning, I said the first question
I want to ask Tim Brown because I was one
of those people out in Wellington Land that pays their rates,
(01:26):
tries to pay their rates, and thought, ah, Tim Brown,
won't that be fantastic on Wellington City Council. Now, if
you had your time again, would you have made the
same decision and stood for Wellington City Council.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
If only you, I'd be putting on my money on
bitcoin or something if I had a perfect hindsight. Look,
I really enjoyed my time a council. I mean it's
been absolutely fascinating and I'm very glad I've done it,
and I would really encourage other people with my sort
of background to give it a shot because you can
be very effective, but not in this sort of transformative way,
(02:04):
because you are only one person out of eighteen voters
around the table, and so the most critical attribute that
you bring to the table is an ability to collaborate.
If you can't collaborate, You're going to be irrelevant. And
some of my council colleagues are definitely not collaborators that
I would say they're basically irrelevant. You know, I would
have liked to have been a lot more effective, especially
(02:25):
around my passion project, which was housing. I'd have liked
to have been able to see us build more housing
for both community and social and affordable users. I don't
think I've been as effective in that area as I
would have liked to have been, but I feel I
have actually done something to make it worth my while,
to make it worth the community as well for my
being there.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, then I'm going to ask you, will you stand again?
Speaker 4 (02:48):
No, I've got a number of domestic responsibilities which just
mean that I wouldn't be able to put in the
time that I would I need to because this has
been a really sixty hour week type job, you know
I've been. I tend to be literally working reading the
papers until you know, often well at to midnight, seven
days a week, and I don't even do as much
(03:09):
of the kind of community stuff as I should be doing.
And I just won't be able to do sixty hours
a week for the next three years, so I just
feel i'd be better off to step down for now.
You know, I'm not saying I won't run again.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And it's a good point. Why would you, I mean,
that's a good point. You still think you've got somebody
to offer. It's just not right now. The timing is
not right for you.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So it's not been a bad experience.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
No, it's been a great experience, and i'd really recommend
other people I have a look at it because it
is actually very interesting and very rewarding because almost all
of the people not all of them, but almost all
of the people in the room are really people with
extremely good aspirations in terms of what they're trying to
achieve for Wellington. So you are working with like minded
people if you like.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Great, Right, let's move on to some topics. Thanks for that.
I mean I know that that would have been quite
difficult for you to come out and get fired up
the first question of the show. But obviously I wanted
to know, and I'm sure if I wanted to know,
our listeners want to know. Well, it's central. MP Timoth
of Paul is under fire for her comments as at
a Radical Alternative policing event. She claimed Wellington people do
(04:13):
not want to see police officers everywhere and the Beat
police doing all our doing is waiting for homeless people
to move off their spots and they pack up this
stuff and throw it into a bin. Campbell Berry, I
want to ask you on this one, what were your thoughts?
Are these comments completely out of touch?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I don't agree with Tamitha. I think the police presence
out there in our streets is a good thing. If
they're not welcome here in Wellington City, we'll take them
in law Hut.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Do you have them in lahart On?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We do, Yeah, they do. I know this Beat squad
has been doing a bit of workout in the Hut.
It's made a real difference, particularly for retails Taylor's and
some of the petty crime issues that have been happening.
I think a police presence is a good thing. I mean,
I think Tamitha is speaking for a certain constituency which
have had bad experiences with the police, So I just
want to acknowledge that. But at the same time, I
(05:02):
think a police did a great job, probably on the
best police forces in the world. Particularly last ten to
fifteen years, we've seen a police force that really reflects
our community as well from a diversity point of view
of who's employed and who's out there doing the work.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Tim, I feel strongly that the BEAT police have made
a difference in the CBD and Wellington. I really do.
And I'm talking to people on the show, on the
business panel and stuff. They all say the same thing.
Young retail workers feel more secure knowing as a police presence.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
What are you hearing, a heart of us said, I agree,
I mean especially the eastern suburbs from MIRRAMARKKILBERTI the business
groups out there have been strong advocates of BEAT presents
in their areas. But at the same time, to go
to TAM's point, part of the mean a large part
of the issue really are Wellington is of course hopeless
people and that means that the police have to work
(05:50):
very very closely with the City Mission to make sure
that they are able to relocate people back to the
City Mission to be cared for because a lot of
these people have special, high needs and difficult people and
that it's the working with the City Mission with other
social agencies which is a very critical part of the
police role. And my observation is that the police do
(06:12):
a very good job at that area, but of course
they could always do better. I think Pat tam is
kind of bringing her perspective to the thing, which is
necessarily an on the ground one of what is people
of Wellington are actually feeling and what is actually happening
in Wellington.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Do you have the numbers in Lower Hut of homeless
people that we have in Wanted Do you have them
on your streets? Do you have them living on in
outside retailers? Not so much.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Homeless issue is probably more of a hidden one in
Lower Hut, and I suppose those who are on the
street usually do have accommodation to be able to stay in.
We know that there are addiction mental health issues attached
to it as well. The police do navigate those situations
quite carefully, working with us in our City Safety Team
and also with some of those other agencies as well,
(06:57):
but certainly not to the same extent.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Tamitha did have a point that she grew up in
Tokara where there was a bit of a distrust to
the police, where they would see the police reacting. Do
you think that there is some sort of feeling within
the youth or the people that aren't happy with their lives,
a lot more distrust for the police than we think
there is.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I would say that's also certainly correct. I mean I
come from the Springbook, you know, protest error, and the police,
through the Red Squad and whatnot in that era definitely
cast a shadow over their reputations. And you know then
subsequently were the Louise Nichols revelations and whatnot. So back
in the day, the police were to be feared, and
(07:41):
because they had this arbitrary and sometimes brutal ability to
be able to actually, you know, transgress people's rights, and
so I have a you know, that is a background
of perspective, if you like, which I'll never get rid of.
Because if you're actually subject to something like the police
sing and it's badly done because of their power, that,
(08:01):
of course, do.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
You think that affected you for the rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Yeah, I honestly believe I think that if you actually
because if you're actually subject to somebody where you've got
no ability to fight back and they've got the ability
to literally punch you in the face, that is going
to make you extremely suspicious about that somebody wearing that
uniform for the rest of your life, and I think
that's probably And so I just talk about something which happened,
you know, forty years ago, right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That's affected you, though personally.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
It's always made me somewhat suspicious. Now, all I'm saying is, Adam,
but I have had nothing but good experiences for the
last you know, twenty odd years, right.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
But you've got that in your back of your mind
and you think about it all the time. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
So if I come from from time's perspective, from Tokoroha,
and I've seen some bad behavior by the police, and
I've got no idea, you know, never seen any police
behavior at all of Tokoha, then I can understand why
she has a perspective which is different to what most
people are Wellington is because most people in Wellington have
only good experiences with the police.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Then back to you, Campbell, because you know you grew
up in way Nuam Marta, you would have seen some
of the hardest stuff in our region, let's be honest,
without having any cracket, which I love, by the way,
and you've got some real rough areas and lower heart
as well, so there'll be a lot of your people
that would feel exactly the same way. Wouldn't you.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah, I absolutely agree, And I think that's the really
important point that Tim's making is that Tamifer is speaking
for a certain group of people who have had those
experiences with police and when they see that uniform, they
have a certain reaction to that. Yeah, totally and absolutely
there are totally people in our community that have that.
I think my perspective is is that the police have
(09:38):
done pretty incredible work over the last ten to fifteen
years and changing that, but there will always be that
element of potentially generational, intergenerational impacts of the way that
police have gone about things.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, intergenerational thing you see. That's where I mean, I'm
amazed at your story to him, because I would you know,
your demographic, your societal piece of society. You would think, oh, no,
I've got nothing but to shake hands with the polices.
I will, but you've got something that springbook two. We'll
talk off air on that one, because I think that
(10:12):
did have some relevance to how a lot of people
feel towards the police. Have definitely had changed my family's life.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
This is news talk said the breaking news.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
The local government minister is taking action on Wellington water.
Simon Watts says he's not satisfied with the water company's
progress on issues identified in two reports earlier this month,
which found it was potentially overpaying for work by the millions.
He's now imposing regulations on the agency by calling in
the Commerce Commission to monitor the water company by making
(10:48):
it report its delivery and financial management. It's the same
setup that other regions will also face under the government's
Local Water Done Well policy, only earlier for Wellington due
to its recent issues that's just been released that piece
of information. Luckily, I've got some people in the studio
that we can talk about. Do you want me to
(11:10):
do that again? Or are they right with it? You've
got that? Okay, let's get into it. Let's get into it.
We're Friday face off of Tim Brown and Campbell Berry.
I'm going to start with you, Campbell on this because
obviously you're very connected to this organization. What is that?
What's your reaction to this information? How when did you know?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah, the Minister gave me a call this morning to
give me a heads up that he was writing a letter.
Too willing to Water to announce this. I mean, I'd
have to obviously digest what that means. Exactly we were
talking just before. I don't think the commis Commission actually
geared up to be able to provide potentially the type
of oversight or support that has mentioned in the letter. However,
(11:50):
we'll just see what that looks like. There is already
requirements under the Local Government Act to be able to
provide information as necessary to government on these types of issues.
And at the end of the day, willing To Water
it shouldn't be in existence from the first of July
next year. So the last thing I'd want is this
to potentially be a distraction and setting it all up
(12:10):
and then actually a new entity or new entities will
be formed after the festial Lie next year. So we'll
need to just comprehend it and then look at what
our next steps are.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Is there problems within the organizations? Are they as bad
as what we're seeing or hearing or feeling.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Look, the structure of Willington Water is totally broken. It's
why I've been an advocate for reform for the last
five years. The way that it's set up, six different
shiolding councils, six different budgets, six different plans was a
recipe for disaster. So we've been trying to work through
that manage that in a way that we're still delivering
on the infrastructure that the region needs, but of course
(12:47):
there has been failings, so my viewers, we need to
keep eye on the price and that is a new
water entity hopefully the entire region, though I know there
is different perspectives on that, and Wellington City in particular
are looking at a couple of different options.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Now, Tim Brown, you haven't had the advantage of being
rung by the local government minister are and told this
is going to happen. So you've just read it the
same as from when I've read it. What is your reaction?
I mean, you were quite passionate in the ad break.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
When we discovered we've got the information from way to
Water about the deficiencies and their contracting regime. One of
the things which I very strongly advocated for was that
Watter City councilor should appoint an observer to Willing to
Water to basically see how they were going to restructure
their contracting regime because the problem which they have at
(13:38):
the moment is putin Hogan is I think they deserve
to be called is a monopoly arrangement and this is
what obviously the Commerce Commission is going to be looking
at is the contracting arrangement that putin Hogan have managed
to actually put in place one which is inimicable to
competition and therefore against the Commerce Act. So what Willy
to Water have told us is that they're going to
(14:01):
restructure their contracting so that there is more contestability and
they'll be you know, blow up prices will eventuate. That's
the theory. What I wanted was that we would put
it in place an expert in this field to monitor
that performance, to make sure that it was being delivered
according to that promise. Now for the Minister to get
(14:21):
in the Cobbs Commission to effectively do the same job,
I think is both a sledgehabber to crack a nut
on one level, but also a sledgehabber which is not
equipped to do the job. I mean, they have the
ability to be able to see whether there has been
more breaking behavior by way of contractors colluding you know
(14:42):
as they but not.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I was told on Wednesday night when I was at
an event by a very reputable Wellington company, very reputable
Wellington company, by one of its owners saying they haven't
been able to break into Warrington water. They they just
just can't get in. It's just not even It's like
it's like, I mean, you say in jest you called them.
I'm not going to say what you called them because
(15:05):
I'd lose my job.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Put No can I say, like how inappropriate that is?
And it's an example of you know, the trialish type
comments that have happened on this. These reports were serious,
they did identify major issues. But you know, in response
to Tim's comment, it actually said when it came to
Fulton Hogan's work and regis the reactive leaks, Yes that
cost has gone up, but it is comparable with the
(15:28):
rest of the country. The problem was on the panel.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It didn't say it was comparable to reason three times
as much.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
No, no, no, they didn't say that. It said it
was comparable. Yes, costs have gone up, but it was
in regards to every kilometer of pipe the cost of
doing repairs. And in the Wellington region our pipes are
stuffed versus christ Church where their pipes arect.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
What do you say to the company that I was
talking to, It says they can't get a foot in
the door and they don't want to look at the price.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
That's absolutely correct. So so just let me finish the
problem that the reports identified was the contractor panel and
that was delivering the renewals the replacement of pipes. That
is different to fixing leaks and the work of Fulton
Hogan one hundred percent. There hasn't been competitive tension there.
That needs to be explored further to make sure that
councils haven't been overcharged and that work is currently underway.
(16:14):
But comments like that to one of our major construction
companies in New Zealand, it's just incredibly unhelpful and it
really does, I think, put the debate and the issues
in the gutter.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Tim Do you believe that this intervention will make any
difference at all? Can they fix it? Will they fix it?
And how quickly?
Speaker 5 (16:34):
No?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
The COMBOSCE Commission is not equipped to do anything in
this regard, especially the time frame which you're actually looking at.
I think if they had appointed independent experts with specialist
skills and contracting, that would have actually ensure that the
contracting remediation which Willington Water has promised us would have
actually occurred to create contestability. And to go to your point,
(16:57):
there's been a very large and long standing complaint by
the Wellington Plumbers Association that their members are not allowed
to actually remediate pipe problem. So it's not just in
terms of priparate murals, it is also fixing leaks. So
a lot of a lot of contractors have been excluded
from the process and undoubtedly it has meant that there's
been a lot of inefficient work has been done on
(17:18):
this job.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Obviously, you are very passionate about this, and I want
to get to I've got to go to a news break,
but I want to get to it quickly. I mean
for you to come out and call them the names
you've called them. You're obviously like had enough, so tell
me why.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Because Wellington City Council has repeatedly demanded information from Wellington Water.
We have no right to demand it from Fulton Hogan
or stick to their real labe.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
We have no right.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
We have to get it from Wellington Water. They have
repeatedly refused to do so, and then so we paid
for a field force report of their contracting regime and
their asset management regime, which found major scale deficiencies. We
Wellington City Council then imposed, through its Statement of corporate Intent,
a requirement that they do the Deloitte's analysis of value
for money, which is what has actually turned up now.
(18:06):
So it's only be through our external intervention that we
have obliged Wellington Water to a dead defy and admit
to faults of their systems. And now they say they've
got to fix her. But it's very much at the
bottom of the cliff because obviously millions of dollars have
been wasted.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, look, the reports are very clear. What they identify
is the structure of the panel and the renewal work.
And just to be clear, the council that has done
the most renewal work over the last five years that's
replacing big kilometers of pipe is Lower Hut, not Wellington City,
it's Lower Hut. So we have concerns about exactly what
that means and we want answers so that that is
(18:41):
on its way and we'll have reports coming back to council.
But what I would say, particularly when it comes to
the plumber's point, I've met with plumbers in the Hut
valion in Wellington around what is their role could they
help with this issue? They actually don't want to touch
the mains network. They just want to be able to
get on with the plumbing jobs that they have, and
we've actually looked to set up a better process within
Wellington Water to allow them to do that, basically fixing
(19:04):
leaks at sort of the Toby where it's sort of
in that gray area. So that type of work has
been happening. But of course there are so many issues
to tackle when it comes to the wall into water
because of its structure, and that's why we need this
new entity asap.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
All right, Tim Brown and Campbell Berry are on Friday
face off. We've just heard the news. As Max said,
local government, Oh my gosh, you bloodman, councils, can you
run anything? It's all your faulted and it can't you
just sort things out something? Right? Rate caps? Let's talk
rate caps because I love this idea. I'm sure I'm
(19:38):
sure a lot of out your constituents both would love
it as well. The government is considering introducing rate caps
on rates increases, but Local Government New Zealand says it's
a bad idea. Campbell Berry, come on, you the head
of that organization. Why is it a bad idea? Why
shouldn't me, as a rate payer be able to plan
my future knowing exactly what my rates are going to cost,
(19:59):
because at the moment I don't even know whether I
can live in my own house past next year.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I would say it's great politics, it's pisspoor poly simple
as that rate caps simply don't work. Why well examples
in Australia right when they have put in rates caps. Yes,
you have seen a reduction in the types of increases
potentially we've seen here in the Wellington region over a
three four year period and you may not see a
huge amount of change over that period of time. But
what it ultimately does, as it drives down the level
(20:26):
of service that you will see in your communities in
regards to the basic core services that are provided, it
will often then create a further backlog in the infrastructure investment.
It's a bit of a race to the bottom. I
would say that the government is focusing on the wrong thing.
They have talked about benchmarking and transparency around where your
rates dollar goes. I want thousand percent support that. And
(20:47):
actually in South Australia they've taken that approach and there's
been a level of rates capping in there. But if
we're benchmarking with each other, where you can see how
your council performs for every dollar that you give them
versus Ookland or Hamilton or wherever. That is going to
create I think a good competitive tension between the councils
and actually rate payers will be able to transparently understand
(21:08):
where the money goes and how it compares to others.
Rates capping, honestly is really really a race to the bottom,
but you won't see the impact of it until sort
of three to five years time.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Or conversely, Tom Brown, we could actually have set rules
that all the must have get spent before or the
want to have, and everybody knows where they are. Couldn't
it make sense? Does it make sense? You're a respected businessman.
If we actually said you can only put your rent
up by three percent, you'd understand that.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
Look, the problem is the must has cost vastly more
than the nice stuff. You know, the amount of money
which relative city council spends on the core services is
colossally overweghs what it spends on the bits that people
regard as contentious, such as you know, cycle ways and whatnot.
And whenever we try and cut back on something such
as you know, the Begonia House of related Is is
(22:00):
a good example where a group of councilors, certainly myself included,
would would say that that does not of tens of
millions of rate payers dollars to be spent on it.
Of course, the public turn up and demand that Thegodia
House has saved in many of the councilors or sufficiently
large numbers of the councilors to go, okay, well we're
going to listen to the public and we're going to
vote for twenty million bucks or whatever for the Bagodia House.
(22:22):
That the trouble is, as Campbell said, is that fundamentally
the rates model is insufficient. It's a bad model. I
mean the amount of tax that local government takes as
a percentage of GDP or as a percentage of total
government sector taxing is I think it's the lowest of
the OECD. So local government in New Zealand is a
(22:43):
tiny relative to elsewhere New Zealanders. Of course, you go
to Sydney, you go to Melbourne, you go to London,
you go to wherever, and you look at all the
facilities which local government provides and you go, well, why
can't we have all this stuff in New Zealand. The
trouble is The only tool we have to pay for
this stuff is either user pays or rates, nothing else.
Why isn't the government introducing controls on our rates? Would
(23:04):
be absurd unless they're willing to do something like give
us a share of GST. There are so many they
should be other revenue mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Is in the government helping local government? Why is this
such a big difference between Why are they not saying
to you've got this big, huge water problem to sort out,
We're going to give.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
You does ZEI look? I mean I've contacted Barbara Edmonds
and Nikola Willis and multiple occasions to ask them for
assistance around our under insurance problem, which is another of
my bugbear issues. And you know, Walington City Council's level
of insurance is something like fifteen percent of the potential
damage that would occur from a major event. Christich City
(23:41):
Council fourteen billion dollars worth of spend. We have about
a billion dollars worth of insurance now have now Nikola
hasn't even replied to my emails. Barbara Edmonds sent me
a note saying she's too busy. The reality is that
local central government doesn't want to get involved in these
messy issues. And I don't know why it's not political,
There isn't any political capital in it. But basically we
(24:03):
are disregarded with disdain by central government.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I'm going to ask you, and it's not on the list,
but I'm going to give you a tingue and have
a break. I'm going to ask you very quickly, why
do we not have the same system and they have
in Australia where the so called councils have a hell
of a lot more power and a hell of a
lot more money to spend and run the cities. I mean,
that's basically what happens over there compared to here, isn't it?
Friday face off with Campbell Berry and Tim Brown. Campbell's
(24:26):
obviously mayor of Lower Heart City as they like to
call it nowadays. When I grew up, it was Lowerhart.
They've changed it and made it a little bit trend do it?
And you should? What can you repeat that? Because I
didn't have your micro.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
So I definitely still call it Lower Heart do you?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Because last time we were on we were talking you
are Hut City, Hut City, Hut City.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So it's the it's the council name, but the city
is called Lower Heart it's a weird one.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And Wellington City Council we haven't changed the name. It
surprises me. You haven't changed the name of Wellington.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
To we have changed them.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Happened?
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I thought we have changed it. We've got a new
you know, longer to be Atara. You know that is
the new name.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
It's not it get with it. No, it's called Wellington.
It's always going to be cool. But I'm never going
to get with its name.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It after the freaking general who won a battle two
hundred years ago. We've got to move on.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh gosh, I have to learn how to spell it.
I don't just learned how to spell Wellington. Legislation introduced
roadside drug testing past in Parliament on Wednesday night, but
the Greens to party Mario a concerned that saliva tests
won't properly won't properly prove impairment. Tim Brown, what are
your thoughts on this? I mean, do you have any thoughts?
Are you? Are you a guy that wants to actually
(25:31):
drug test drug drivers as they go home? Absolutely out
of it?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
I mean, honestly, I've got no thoughts at all about
this one, because I just really don't understand that the issues.
I understand you've got a properly, you.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Don't have it. You don't understand that you're stone out
of your head and you're driving you have an.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Accident, though I totally get it. I mean, but that
obviously that's not what they're trying to do, because if
you've had the accident, they can then test you up
and no.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
No, but I mean they can prevent the accidents because
they can test you driving down the road completely off
your head the heart.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Before they do anything mandatory, I think they need to
do a bit of the server to find out how
many people are driving who've had a pill for whatever
reason could be, you know, because of medication or something
or other, who are going to be caught by this test,
who are not in any way impaired, because clearly taking
a pill and being impaired and not necessarily the same thing.
So I don't see this as as a logical policy essentially,
(26:24):
But if they've got some way of actually showing that
the test finds if you're impaired, fine and dandy. But
it doesn't seem to me that is actually likely.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I reckon that you might be sitting next to the
meor too much. You're starting to get some real green
ideas here.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
It's just logic.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
It's just logic, I would say. You know, when you
look at the stats, I think it's something like thirty
percent of deaths on the road are from drivers who
are impaired. That's a serious problem. So I fully support
the police having the power of being able to do
drug testing. I think that some of the concerns raised
by the Greens to party Mardi can be mitigated by
having processes where you you know, the testing later on
(27:04):
to check whether or not there'll be any penalties on
the person as appropriate. And it's a problem out there,
so we need to do something about it. Seems a
bit crazy to me that if a policeman pulls over
a driver and they're clearly impaired, but they don't have
the tools to actually stop them from driving and putting
other people's safety at risk is a bit absurd, So
I fully support it.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I tend to agree with you. This story really did
upset me. And eleven year old nonverbal autistic girl was arrested,
taken to a mental health facility, and injected with anti
psychotic medication after be mistaken for someone in their twenties.
Health New Zealand can't yet explain how it happened. Campbell Berry,
When you first read this story, how did it make
(27:46):
you feel as a mayor of Hut City.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, I mean I seen the headline and I honestly
had a W two TF moment. I thought, what on
earth has happened here? I thought it was maybe clickbait. Actually,
when I seen the headline and when I read the
story and understood what had happened, I mean, this is
absolutely terrible and just so unacceptable. So I would expect
there to be not just fast justice for this family
(28:10):
and for this young girl, but a real deep dive
into making sure this never happens again. I mean that
it is a family's worst nightmare.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And tim we seem to hear these stories about mental
health all the time. Do we really in this country
take mental health seriously?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
I think we do take it seriously, but it does
require a lot of resourcing, and I suspect that what
will have happened here is some very under pressure clinicians
will have been presented with a difficult situation and have
just responded because of limited time and ability to be
able to process what they were really seeing in front
of them. So, I mean, obviously it's an awful thing
to have happened, but I suspect it actually relates to
(28:50):
under resourcing of the necessary service.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Right now, I want to finish off for something a
bit lighter. Last week I told the story on the
show about setting up the Saints game, which you went to.
Tom and me, my son and a management member had
two cars van and the car fully fully loaded up
with stuff, lots of heavy stuff, and we were lugging
away setting up the stadium, and there was a member
(29:15):
of the management of the team shooting around, mucking around,
watching us. And then the team all walked in and
only two players, high high end players actually helped. All
the other players walk past all the loading and loading
out without even stopping and helping. And I asked the question,
and I'm going to ask you both, Campbell Society change.
(29:38):
Would you walk past someone doing a job outside the
city council not offer to help.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Oh, it's a tricky one, I would say. You know,
I coached a rugby team a couple of years ago,
and whenever there was jobs then to be done. These
are thirteen fourteen year olds, so they were always there
ready to help. That was but that was sort of
the sort of culture we had within that team. So
I'm gonna put it back on you, Nick. Maybe there
needs to be some conversations within the Saints to say, hey,
(30:05):
but maybe you know, do you do muck in and
you make sure you do things. But I think generally
from a generational perspective, you know, I've found young people
to be pretty good. Sometimes they need a nudge. I mean,
sometimes that's funny, little established.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
My wife said the same thing, because I was very
upset by it, you know, I just thought the culture
was wrong and everything. And she said, why didn't you
just down around and tell them to help you? And
I said, well, that's that's not the point, Tim Brown.
What did you think, mad me telling you that little story?
Did you think that it's a cultural thing? Or is
it a youth thing? Or is it that's not my
job thing?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Maybe it's you. Maybe they just didn't like you. No,
I mean, honestly, I just think I think the youth
of today are fantastic. And I mean all the ones
who I meet in the various spaces which I occupy,
and you know, definitely by children in this category is
they just couldn't be more helpful, So.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
You would your kids, because that's what That's what got
me through this moment without getting upset with myself. Is
I knew that my kids would help. Would your kids help.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, yeah, I would say definitely in that situation, but
they might help me to help you.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Maybe it's a bit scaring that exactly stop around on me.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
It could all be about you afraid that well.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I can tell you that the two highest profile players,
Isaiah Leafa and Sean Bruce, did stop, put their bags
down and stopped. They were the star players and they
stopped and helped.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
So the Australians helped them. The keywis didn't. That's what
you're telling me.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, well, one Australian one KEI we won Wellingtonian properly
brought up Wellingtonian time for a break. I don't know
how that cup put back on me. You guys, I
know I'll put you in the under the spotlight, but
it didn't have to come back at me like this.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
The Friday Tim Brown Campbell Berry Friday is my favorite
part of the show is when on a Friday, when
we do hots and knots, Campbell Berry give me your
hots and knots.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
We've got Georgina Campbell starting in my office on Monday.
We had a coffee with her this morning. Very please
to have her there and I know she'll be dearly missed,
but we're excited giving it.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
And now, how you got on this program after you
pitched her off us? I didn't It's not something that
I had anything to do with and didn't clear. But
after losing Georgina Campbell, I don't know how you got
on the show. Okay, once you're not hot.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Not or we have covered the topic, but was absolutely
what happened to the eleven year old girl. And I
just think that it's just so unacceptable acknowledging Tim's points
around the clearly as a failure in the system there.
We need to get that right.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Tim Brown, your hots are not hot.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Definitely Cuba doper. You can see my T shirt.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I was lately looking at your T shirt saying what
a nice T shirt. I didn't realize it's that Cuba dooper.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
So that's tomorrow and weare It's meant to be great,
and of course also on Sunday, so that will be fantastic.
You know, the best street celebration in New Zealand every
year not I think is actually this weird thing about
the you know, the Poseidon javelin incident, which our military
forces are involved with the Americans and various other countries
against the Yemenis, and the way the Americans you know,
(33:11):
read about doing that the debate about critical decisions publicly
and then all lied to you know, their version of
the Select Committee basically sort of bullshitting that in fact
they hadn't actually you know, let anything out of the bag.
I mean, I mean, the reason I think that is
a really major issue is when people behave that badly
(33:32):
and they are the leaders of the free world, you
just realize the world order is changing because we just
can't trust those sort of people.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Can't trust anybody, that's the problem. Well, you can trust you,
I could trust you. I've got to trust my job
and I've got to So I'm sorry to cut you
off a little bit on that one, but we've got
to go to an ad break before the news. Tim
Brown canel Berry, thank you very much for joining us.
Have a great weekend and go Cooper doo. But I
hope you enjoyed. Last time I saw you was at
that event, so Hopefully I'll see you again on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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