September 2, 2025 • 19 mins
Labour Leader Chris Hipkins says his party would 'take a closer look' at whether the exemption to the foreign home buyers' ban could be overturned by his party.
Hipkins told Nick Mills on Wellington Mornings he's unsure whether legislation would allow it to be overturned.
In his monthly catch up with Wellington Mornings, Hipkins also discussed the Tāmaki Makaurau by-election, whether he's taking speculation of a Peeni Henare leadership challenge seriously and what Andrew Little would mean for Wellington if he became Mayor.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On a monthly catch up. It's now time to have
again with our labor leader and MP for Rumatucker, Chris Hipkins.
He joins us actually by phone from Auckland this morning.
Good morning, Chris, Good Nick.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm great? What are you doing in Auckland.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I'm up here.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Today with Penny Henadi. We've got the by election campaign
bothing finishes on Saturday for the by election the Toomakimakoto,
So I'm spending a bit of time with Penny and
then tomorrow I'm heading down to two Dangawaiwai for the Coronehana.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, now talking about Penny hi Hanadi, he's not batting well.
He is batting away, but he's not ruling out that
he wants to run for leader. I mean, how were
you are just something that's just come up or has
it been a bit of talk about it before?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
This is ridiculous. I mean he basically did. He said
he's one hundred percent supports Miley Ship, wants me to
be the next Prime Minister and is focused on winning
Toommicky Makoto. I'm not sure you could be much clearer
than that.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But he didn't. I mean, I've seen him interview twice
and neither time did he rule out that he wanted
to be leader.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
But all people who go into Parliament want to be
prime minister. That's the reality for the job that you're working.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
And then there are the other.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
People who are honest about it, the people who lie
about it. The truth is, you know, aspiration is a
good thing. But I'm absolutely confident that Penny fully backs
me as the leader of the Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I said that yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, but he's not ruling out that that's he wants
to be the first Mildy prime minister. He is not
ruling out any of that.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
I think you're reading far too much into that, really.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Or is that you You're a bit concerned, but you're
saying nothing about it.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I can tell you I am not the slightest bit concerned.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You were with him today, did he speak Did you
speak to him about it? Did you talk to him
about it?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I don't need to speak to about it. I have
been with him yet. I was doing a breakfast with
the New Zealand Law Association this morning and surely I'll
be heading off to join Penny on the campaign Traveler.
I don't need to talk to him about it. I
know that he supports me completely and I support him completely.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Would he be a good leader? Would he be a
good prime minister?
Speaker 4 (02:22):
You think?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I think it'd be a fantastic MP for Tomack and Maikoto.
And that's what we're both focused on at the moment,
winning this by election.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I'm not going to get anything out of you on
the semi.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I think you have you know, there's not much
to say.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, wait and see maybe anyway, ACT Leader David Seymour's
continue to make a noise on a stance of the
Paris Climate Agreement, calling for an exit unless we negotiate
a better deal. We do need a better deal, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Wedrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement would be a disaster
for New Zealand exporters, for New Zealand farmers. It would
potentially mean less money coming into New Zealand. And I
can't see how that's something that responsible political party will
be promoting.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Why would it make less money coming into New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Well, let's take our biggest export industry, Well, one of
our biggest export industries, the dairy industry, Fonterra, you know,
they sell New Zealand milk products around the world. Big
companies who buy those products, Nestle, Testoes, those big international
companies are basically saying that if we don't meet our
(03:33):
obligations under the Powis Agreement, they won't buy they that
stuff from us anymore. So that could be disastrous for
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But could we go back to them and say, look,
we're a little tiny country at the bottom end of
the world doing it really tough financially at the moment.
Do you think we could be cut some slack for
five years to get ourselves back on our feet. Do
you think that's possible.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, if you look at our major export markets, So
taking a market like Europe where we're trying to export
more into Europe, we've got opportunities to export more into Europe,
they're going to turn out and say, well, suck it up,
New Zealand, we're doing it tough on a whole lot
of issues as well. And why should you be different.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
What happens of New Zealand First back Seymour's cause what
happens then, well.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
That really is the question for Christopher Luckxon. I don't
support New Zealand with drawing from the Powis Agreement. The
Labor Party won't support but New Zealand with drawing from
the Powis Agreement. So Christopher Lackxon frankly needs to come
out very unequivocally and say that the National Party won't
support it either.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I mean, do you think he will hold firm on
its stance or do you think he might have to
look at it with the coalition both if the Coalition
both come.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
At him, well, you know, Christopher Lux's let act in
New Zealand first call the shots. For most of this
term of parliament, we live in hope that he'll find
a backbone and say no.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
What did you make of his stance on the Amazon stuff?
I mean, it was pretty clear that your government put
that deal together, formed it all, made it all happen,
and he wanted to take the glory. What was your
stance on that?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Well?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I think it's been a disaster for him on a
number of levels. I mean, he was trying to claim
the credit for something that was announced in twenty twenty one,
when Jacinda Radurn had been working with Amazon to encourage
them to come and invest in New Zealand. But actually
it now turns out that it might have been even
more of a disaster, and that the promise they made
back in twenty twenty one to build their own data
centers in New Zealand, which everybody thought Christopher Luxan was
(05:30):
opening yesterday, might not actually be true, and that actually
the work in New Zealand might just be borrowing data
center space off other existing data centers already in New Zealand. So,
you know, when I saw the announcement yesterday, I assumed
that he was cutting the ribbon on the data centers
that Amazon said they were going to build back in
twenty twenty one, when it turns out they haven't started yet.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I mean, this on paper is a pretty big deal.
Seven point five billion dollars. I mean over fifteen years
or whatever the timeframe was. But this potentially was a
pretty big deal. Are you saying it's not going to
be that much now?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There was certainly a big deal when it was announced
back in twenty twenty one, But the real questions for
both the National Party of Christopher Luxan and for Amazon
is how much of that money's actually been spent. Are
they actually doing what they say they did they were going.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
To do, and what is your take on that They're not?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Well, it would appear that. I mean, I've seen the
photos of the where the site where they were going
to build their data set.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
It's just dirt.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
So what exactly were they cutting the ribbon on yesterday?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Do you know?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
No? I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I mean, from what I gather, they've basically just been
using other data centers that were already set up in
New Zealand. That's not going to bring the seven point
five billion dollars worth of investment into the country that
they claimed it was.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
What sort of numbers are we talking now? In your mind?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Oh, wouldn't have it. I wouldn't be able to put
a number on that. But I mean the reality here
is the Prime Minister was the one hyping this up
yesterday and saying it's all getting underway. So I think
they need to come clean and say what exactly, what
exactly did they announce yesterday? It's still quite difficult to understand,
aside from the twenty twenty one announcement, which is already
well out there, what was the new bit yesterday that
(07:17):
meant that they offered an exclusive to new Stalks, there'd
be that morning.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
The New Zealand Initiative says we have too many government departments,
too many ministers, and wants to overhaul the government's systems.
Do you agree and what would your overhaul look like
if you did agree?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I read an earlier version of that report. I do
think that one of the main points they make that
the relationship between government departments and ministers has become too convoluted.
I've got a lot of sympathy for that. I think that,
you know, the number of ministerial portfolios that we have
now that overlap with one another has become a bit
out of control, and I think there is probably a
(07:55):
need for some rationalization there. So, you know, New Zealand
Initiatives often produced research reports that I don't agree with.
In this case, I think that there's some merits in
some of the things that they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
This is what your government installed, isn't it. You You
put all these extra ministries in and made things bigger
than they needed to be.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't think that's true. I think this is built
up over a long period of time. So if you
take both the clerk government, the key government, Jinda Adun
and my government, all of them have seen an increase
in the number of ministerial portfolios where there's more room
for overlap, and I think that that's something that we
do need to have another look at.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Have you looked at it? Are you looking at it?
Is it part of your plan?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I looked at it when I became Prime Minister and
took over from Jinda Arding. It is quite a big
job to do some sort of reorganization there, and I
didn't think that, you know, in the run up to
a general election, that was the time to do it.
But it is something certainly something God to be keen
to look at should we win the next election.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
What confuses me a little bit is the present coalition government,
your government, I haven't actually had a plan and intact
and yet the New Zealand Initiative have to put a
full report out that tells us is eighty one ministerial portfolios,
twenty eight ministers and forty three departments and it's bloated.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Boy, As I said, that was something that I looked
at when I became Prime minister. It is a big
job to untangle that and I didn't think that I
could do that in the sort of nine months that
I had to run into the general election. But forming
a new government, that is an opportunity to think about
a bit of a restructure there in terms of ministerial workload,
and that is something that I've been giving quite a
(09:35):
lot of thought to even before the New Zealand Initiative
released their report.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
If there's kind of a couple of ministries that you
reckon that could go what are your ones? What I mean,
you've obviously know enough about it to think ships, do
we really need a woman's department Minister of Women's Affairs anymore?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I actually think people focusing on the population ministries and
there's only a small number of them who's looking at
the wrong area. I think if you look at a
department like the Ministry of Business and Innovation and Employment,
the chief executive their reports to half the cabinet, quite
literally half the cabinet through various different ministery or portfolios,
and the lines of accountability and have become very convolution there.
(10:15):
I think you know that the original structure of New
Zealand's public service was that each government department chief executive
would report to a government department minister that over time
has now broken down to the point where that's no
longer the case, and I think we do need to
have a good look at that again.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
A woman stopped me in the street yesterday, Chris. She
said to me, she said, Nick, why do we have
a department for women's affairs? Why don't we have a
department for men's affairs? Because women have been looking after
men for decades, hundreds of years.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, of course that latter part of the statement is
absolutely true. But as long as you've got a government
that says that women should be legally paid less than
men for doing the work of the same value, we
need to depart. We need some advocates in the system
to say, actually that's not the case, and that women
should be paid the same as men for work of
the same value.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
One reason why Labor would be better than the Coalition
government at downsizing these ministries.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
I don't think it's a question of downsizing. I think
the issue here is making sure that there's some good
housekeeping the government departments. The lines of accountability are clear,
that the scope of who's responsible for what is clear,
And I think you know, the point of the New Zealand
Initiative have made, which is that this proliferation of ministerial
(11:35):
jobs has been meant that that's broken down is a
really fair one.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
We are in the middle of our monthly catch up
with labor leader and MP for Rumattucker, Chris Hopkins. Now, Chris,
I heard this on my costing show yesterday. Can you
ever just have a listen to this?
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Ah bring us about mister Hipkins with a glass respect.
What does he know about anything to do with business?
Has never been out of a university labor party hierarchy background,
has never had a real of wouldn't I how to
run the schooled touch shop? So I'm not surprised that
this sort of massive reaction from him when all we're
(12:13):
doing is saying for serious foreign investors and to bring
bidden into this country, then there is one benefit that
we need to add to our incentivized to invest in
New Zealand plan.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How do you answer that?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Oh? Well, you know, Winston Peters is more interested in
attacking me personally rather than cackling the issue. And you know,
coming from someone who's been in Parliament since before I
was born, I'm not going to take any lectures about
being out of touch with.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
The real world.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
The truth here is Winston Peters has sold out New
Zealanders can see that. He said that he was going
to put New Zealanders first. Instead he's rolling out the
welcome mat to rich foreigners while New Zealanders can't afford
to buy a house.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I mean, this is a very good plan. Though even
you must see that it's a very good plan. We've
got three hundred people lining up to invest five million
dollars plus or maybe ten million dollars plus, I mean
between five and ten or more and then buy a
house for five million dollars. That's a lot of money
coming into New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So how does a wealthy foreign person who wants to
have a holiday home in New Zealand buying five million
dollars worth of New Zealand government bonds contribute to New
Zealand's economic growth?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Have you got half an hour do you want me
to tell you? I mean, firstly, he's going to invest
all she he or she is going to invest in
the New Zealand business to grow that business, which means
you'll need to employ more people, which gets more people
off the doll line and puts them into jobs. And
he brings some expertise and running that business and contacts
internationally to run that business, to further growth that business.
(13:45):
I can keep going.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
But Nick, they don't have to do that. They can
just put five million dollars in New Zealand government bonds.
New Zealand government bonds already oversubscribed. There's more people wanting
to buy them than there are bonds sale. And they
can say that's my investment in New Zealand. They can
come and buy a five million dollar holiday at home
that don't visit maybe once a year, spent a couple
of weeks of the year there, and it's not going
to grow in New Zealand's economy.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Do you have actually any real evidence that it will
actually increase the house prices of lower priced houses, because
I just can't see this affecting anybody but the people
that own homes of five million dollars or more.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
The advice that we got when we introduced the foreign
buyer band was that exempting high value houses would have
a cascading effect on the rest of the market. So
people who would have bought a five million dollar house
who get crowded out by foreign investors move to the
next bracket down and that pushes up the price of
those houses, and that has a cascading effect all the
way through the property market.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So a first home buyer looking to spend between six
and eight hundred thousand dollars, do you believe that that
will affect them in the next five years?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Foreign buyers coming back into New Zealand's market will likely
push up the price of all houses in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean there must be a threshold that you're working on,
because I can't see it trickling down that far. I
cannot see it happening.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well, the other thing that happens, and developers will tell
you this is the more money they can make building big,
flash rich houses means that they spend more time doing
that in less time building affordable houses that first time
buyers might.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Be able to buy.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
So it's another example of the government having its priorities wrong.
We should be focused on houses for New Zealanders. When
New Zealanders can't afford to buy a house, that should
be the number one priority of the government, not rolling
out the welcome that for those who want to buy
a house and not live in it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Would you overturn it if you become Prime Minister and
win our.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Bet we'll have a close look at it, but unfortunately,
it is one of those things where once it's done,
it's hard to unpick intently find ourselves falling foul of
Sorry Chris, international tras.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Sorry Chris, I want an answer. Would you overturn it?
I mean it's a simple yes or no.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Well, no, it isn't it is.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I'm not sure that we will be able to What do.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You mean you whether you'll be able to You can
change the.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Law when we introduced that, When we introduced the Foreign
home Buyers Band, we made sure that that was done
before the CPTPP, which is one of our major international
trade agreements, came into effect. Because under the CPTPP, you
can't introduce laws like that. So we couldn't have done
the Foreign home Buyer Band if we hadn't done it
(16:26):
before the CPTPP came into effect. So once the government
relaxed this rule, it's not necessarily clear at this point
whether we would be able to put it back in
place and still be complying with our international obligation.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, get that. Would you try to overturn it? Would
you make it and make it a name of yours?
To overturn it?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
As I said, we'll have a very close look at it.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Do you really think it's that bad?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I want New Zealand houses to be for New Zealand families.
We need to stop viewing houses as primarily investments and
start viewing houses as homes.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
No question about that. But don't we need foreign investment
into this country so that we can grow those businesses
in New Zealand to employ more people so they can
actually buy houses.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Of course we need more investment in New Zealand. We
could also do a better job of encouraging New Zealand
investment to stay in New Zealand. Do you look at
the huge pools of capital that we've built up through
our Kei we Saver account. Most of that's invested off shore.
We could do a much better job of getting that
invested in New Zealand and the people who savings that
is already live in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Let's move on to Andrew Little. I mean, I don't
know whether you've seen it this morning. You're in Auckland
so you may not have, but there's a pole that's
just come out that says he's leading the mayoralty race
by a long way in Wellington, have you spoken to
him lately?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
No, I haven't spoken to Andrew for a week while now.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
He's been busy on the campaign trail, and I've of
course been busy around the country.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
But I'm not surprised.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I think Andrew will be a fantastic in the eure
of Wellington.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
How much do you think that he will take his
leadership from the Labor Party? Do you think it'll be
a Labour Party person that will just do whatever you
tell him to do.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I don't think anyone could question Andrew's values. Andrew's values
are very much the Labor Party's values. But I also
think that he will do the right thing by Wellington.
He will be a very strong voice for Wellington regardless
of who the central government is.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
What's going to happen to your Mary vote if you
don't win this by election this weekend? Is is it
going to really show you that MARII have left Labor.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
We lost them ad seats at the last election and
we're fighting hard to win them back. The Toomacky Mikodo
by election is just the first step in that job.
Will be contesting them vigorously at the next general election
as well.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So do you think that this has got any relativity
to where you stand with married him.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
This by election, Oh, we're in it to win it.
And I think Penny hen Ad is the best person
to be the MP for Toomacky Mikodo. And my message
to voters in Tomacky Milkodo, which is where I am
at today, is that you know, they should vote for
Pennie and get that strong voice for Mary in Auckland,
in this parliament and in the next parliament.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
What's your gut telling you which way is they going
to go?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I turn out very very low, and you know, I
think there's still a lot of people who haven't tuned
into the fact that there's even a by election happening.
So I think, you know, we've got a bit of
work to do to try and turn out the.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Vote in the next couple of days.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Chris, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on
the show. Have a safe trip back to Wellington. Labor
leader and MP for Ramatuka Chris Hopkins, who joins us
on a monthly basis on the show.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks There'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk said B.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
On a monthly catch up. It's now time to have
again with our labor leader and MP for Rumatucker, Chris Hipkins.
He joins us actually by phone from Auckland this morning.
Good morning, Chris, Good Nick.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I'm great? What are you doing in Auckland.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
I'm up here.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Today with Penny Henadi. We've got the by election campaign
bothing finishes on Saturday for the by election the Toomakimakoto,
So I'm spending a bit of time with Penny and
then tomorrow I'm heading down to two Dangawaiwai for the Coronehana.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Okay, now talking about Penny hi Hanadi, he's not batting well.
He is batting away, but he's not ruling out that
he wants to run for leader. I mean, how were
you are just something that's just come up or has
it been a bit of talk about it before?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
This is ridiculous. I mean he basically did. He said
he's one hundred percent supports Miley Ship, wants me to
be the next Prime Minister and is focused on winning
Toommicky Makoto. I'm not sure you could be much clearer
than that.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But he didn't. I mean, I've seen him interview twice
and neither time did he rule out that he wanted
to be leader.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
But all people who go into Parliament want to be
prime minister. That's the reality for the job that you're working.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
And then there are the other.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
People who are honest about it, the people who lie
about it. The truth is, you know, aspiration is a
good thing. But I'm absolutely confident that Penny fully backs
me as the leader of the Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I said that yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, but he's not ruling out that that's he wants
to be the first Mildy prime minister. He is not
ruling out any of that.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
I think you're reading far too much into that, really.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Or is that you You're a bit concerned, but you're
saying nothing about it.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I can tell you I am not the slightest bit concerned.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
You were with him today, did he speak Did you
speak to him about it? Did you talk to him
about it?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I don't need to speak to about it. I have
been with him yet. I was doing a breakfast with
the New Zealand Law Association this morning and surely I'll
be heading off to join Penny on the campaign Traveler.
I don't need to talk to him about it. I
know that he supports me completely and I support him completely.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Would he be a good leader? Would he be a
good prime minister?
Speaker 4 (02:22):
You think?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I think it'd be a fantastic MP for Tomack and Maikoto.
And that's what we're both focused on at the moment,
winning this by election.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I'm not going to get anything out of you on
the semi.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well, I think you have you know, there's not much
to say.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, wait and see maybe anyway, ACT Leader David Seymour's
continue to make a noise on a stance of the
Paris Climate Agreement, calling for an exit unless we negotiate
a better deal. We do need a better deal, don't.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Wedrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement would be a disaster
for New Zealand exporters, for New Zealand farmers. It would
potentially mean less money coming into New Zealand. And I
can't see how that's something that responsible political party will
be promoting.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Why would it make less money coming into New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Well, let's take our biggest export industry, Well, one of
our biggest export industries, the dairy industry, Fonterra, you know,
they sell New Zealand milk products around the world. Big
companies who buy those products, Nestle, Testoes, those big international
companies are basically saying that if we don't meet our
(03:33):
obligations under the Powis Agreement, they won't buy they that
stuff from us anymore. So that could be disastrous for
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But could we go back to them and say, look,
we're a little tiny country at the bottom end of
the world doing it really tough financially at the moment.
Do you think we could be cut some slack for
five years to get ourselves back on our feet. Do
you think that's possible.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Well, if you look at our major export markets, So
taking a market like Europe where we're trying to export
more into Europe, we've got opportunities to export more into Europe,
they're going to turn out and say, well, suck it up,
New Zealand, we're doing it tough on a whole lot
of issues as well. And why should you be different.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
What happens of New Zealand First back Seymour's cause what
happens then, well.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
That really is the question for Christopher Luckxon. I don't
support New Zealand with drawing from the Powis Agreement. The
Labor Party won't support but New Zealand with drawing from
the Powis Agreement. So Christopher Lackxon frankly needs to come
out very unequivocally and say that the National Party won't
support it either.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I mean, do you think he will hold firm on
its stance or do you think he might have to
look at it with the coalition both if the Coalition
both come.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
At him, well, you know, Christopher Lux's let act in
New Zealand first call the shots. For most of this
term of parliament, we live in hope that he'll find
a backbone and say no.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
What did you make of his stance on the Amazon stuff?
I mean, it was pretty clear that your government put
that deal together, formed it all, made it all happen,
and he wanted to take the glory. What was your
stance on that?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Well?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I think it's been a disaster for him on a
number of levels. I mean, he was trying to claim
the credit for something that was announced in twenty twenty one,
when Jacinda Radurn had been working with Amazon to encourage
them to come and invest in New Zealand. But actually
it now turns out that it might have been even
more of a disaster, and that the promise they made
back in twenty twenty one to build their own data
centers in New Zealand, which everybody thought Christopher Luxan was
(05:30):
opening yesterday, might not actually be true, and that actually
the work in New Zealand might just be borrowing data
center space off other existing data centers already in New Zealand. So,
you know, when I saw the announcement yesterday, I assumed
that he was cutting the ribbon on the data centers
that Amazon said they were going to build back in
twenty twenty one, when it turns out they haven't started yet.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I mean, this on paper is a pretty big deal.
Seven point five billion dollars. I mean over fifteen years
or whatever the timeframe was. But this potentially was a
pretty big deal. Are you saying it's not going to
be that much now?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
There was certainly a big deal when it was announced
back in twenty twenty one, But the real questions for
both the National Party of Christopher Luxan and for Amazon
is how much of that money's actually been spent. Are
they actually doing what they say they did they were going.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
To do, and what is your take on that They're not?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Well, it would appear that. I mean, I've seen the
photos of the where the site where they were going
to build their data set.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
It's just dirt.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
So what exactly were they cutting the ribbon on yesterday?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Do you know?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
No? I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I mean, from what I gather, they've basically just been
using other data centers that were already set up in
New Zealand. That's not going to bring the seven point
five billion dollars worth of investment into the country that
they claimed it was.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
What sort of numbers are we talking now? In your mind?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Oh, wouldn't have it. I wouldn't be able to put
a number on that. But I mean the reality here
is the Prime Minister was the one hyping this up
yesterday and saying it's all getting underway. So I think
they need to come clean and say what exactly, what
exactly did they announce yesterday? It's still quite difficult to understand,
aside from the twenty twenty one announcement, which is already
well out there, what was the new bit yesterday that
(07:17):
meant that they offered an exclusive to new Stalks, there'd
be that morning.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
The New Zealand Initiative says we have too many government departments,
too many ministers, and wants to overhaul the government's systems.
Do you agree and what would your overhaul look like
if you did agree?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I read an earlier version of that report. I do
think that one of the main points they make that
the relationship between government departments and ministers has become too convoluted.
I've got a lot of sympathy for that. I think that,
you know, the number of ministerial portfolios that we have
now that overlap with one another has become a bit
out of control, and I think there is probably a
(07:55):
need for some rationalization there. So, you know, New Zealand
Initiatives often produced research reports that I don't agree with.
In this case, I think that there's some merits in
some of the things that they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
This is what your government installed, isn't it. You You
put all these extra ministries in and made things bigger
than they needed to be.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't think that's true. I think this is built
up over a long period of time. So if you
take both the clerk government, the key government, Jinda Adun
and my government, all of them have seen an increase
in the number of ministerial portfolios where there's more room
for overlap, and I think that that's something that we
do need to have another look at.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Have you looked at it? Are you looking at it?
Is it part of your plan?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I looked at it when I became Prime Minister and
took over from Jinda Arding. It is quite a big
job to do some sort of reorganization there, and I
didn't think that, you know, in the run up to
a general election, that was the time to do it.
But it is something certainly something God to be keen
to look at should we win the next election.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
What confuses me a little bit is the present coalition government,
your government, I haven't actually had a plan and intact
and yet the New Zealand Initiative have to put a
full report out that tells us is eighty one ministerial portfolios,
twenty eight ministers and forty three departments and it's bloated.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Boy, As I said, that was something that I looked
at when I became Prime minister. It is a big
job to untangle that and I didn't think that I
could do that in the sort of nine months that
I had to run into the general election. But forming
a new government, that is an opportunity to think about
a bit of a restructure there in terms of ministerial workload,
and that is something that I've been giving quite a
(09:35):
lot of thought to even before the New Zealand Initiative
released their report.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
If there's kind of a couple of ministries that you
reckon that could go what are your ones? What I mean,
you've obviously know enough about it to think ships, do
we really need a woman's department Minister of Women's Affairs anymore?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I actually think people focusing on the population ministries and
there's only a small number of them who's looking at
the wrong area. I think if you look at a
department like the Ministry of Business and Innovation and Employment,
the chief executive their reports to half the cabinet, quite
literally half the cabinet through various different ministery or portfolios,
and the lines of accountability and have become very convolution there.
(10:15):
I think you know that the original structure of New
Zealand's public service was that each government department chief executive
would report to a government department minister that over time
has now broken down to the point where that's no
longer the case, and I think we do need to
have a good look at that again.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
A woman stopped me in the street yesterday, Chris. She
said to me, she said, Nick, why do we have
a department for women's affairs? Why don't we have a
department for men's affairs? Because women have been looking after
men for decades, hundreds of years.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, of course that latter part of the statement is
absolutely true. But as long as you've got a government
that says that women should be legally paid less than
men for doing the work of the same value, we
need to depart. We need some advocates in the system
to say, actually that's not the case, and that women
should be paid the same as men for work of
the same value.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
One reason why Labor would be better than the Coalition
government at downsizing these ministries.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
I don't think it's a question of downsizing. I think
the issue here is making sure that there's some good
housekeeping the government departments. The lines of accountability are clear,
that the scope of who's responsible for what is clear,
And I think you know, the point of the New Zealand
Initiative have made, which is that this proliferation of ministerial
(11:35):
jobs has been meant that that's broken down is a
really fair one.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
We are in the middle of our monthly catch up
with labor leader and MP for Rumattucker, Chris Hopkins. Now, Chris,
I heard this on my costing show yesterday. Can you
ever just have a listen to this?
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Ah bring us about mister Hipkins with a glass respect.
What does he know about anything to do with business?
Has never been out of a university labor party hierarchy background,
has never had a real of wouldn't I how to
run the schooled touch shop? So I'm not surprised that
this sort of massive reaction from him when all we're
(12:13):
doing is saying for serious foreign investors and to bring
bidden into this country, then there is one benefit that
we need to add to our incentivized to invest in
New Zealand plan.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How do you answer that?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Oh? Well, you know, Winston Peters is more interested in
attacking me personally rather than cackling the issue. And you know,
coming from someone who's been in Parliament since before I
was born, I'm not going to take any lectures about
being out of touch with.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
The real world.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
The truth here is Winston Peters has sold out New
Zealanders can see that. He said that he was going
to put New Zealanders first. Instead he's rolling out the
welcome mat to rich foreigners while New Zealanders can't afford
to buy a house.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I mean, this is a very good plan. Though even
you must see that it's a very good plan. We've
got three hundred people lining up to invest five million
dollars plus or maybe ten million dollars plus, I mean
between five and ten or more and then buy a
house for five million dollars. That's a lot of money
coming into New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So how does a wealthy foreign person who wants to
have a holiday home in New Zealand buying five million
dollars worth of New Zealand government bonds contribute to New
Zealand's economic growth?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Have you got half an hour do you want me
to tell you? I mean, firstly, he's going to invest
all she he or she is going to invest in
the New Zealand business to grow that business, which means
you'll need to employ more people, which gets more people
off the doll line and puts them into jobs. And
he brings some expertise and running that business and contacts
internationally to run that business, to further growth that business.
(13:45):
I can keep going.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
But Nick, they don't have to do that. They can
just put five million dollars in New Zealand government bonds.
New Zealand government bonds already oversubscribed. There's more people wanting
to buy them than there are bonds sale. And they
can say that's my investment in New Zealand. They can
come and buy a five million dollar holiday at home
that don't visit maybe once a year, spent a couple
of weeks of the year there, and it's not going
to grow in New Zealand's economy.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Do you have actually any real evidence that it will
actually increase the house prices of lower priced houses, because
I just can't see this affecting anybody but the people
that own homes of five million dollars or more.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
The advice that we got when we introduced the foreign
buyer band was that exempting high value houses would have
a cascading effect on the rest of the market. So
people who would have bought a five million dollar house
who get crowded out by foreign investors move to the
next bracket down and that pushes up the price of
those houses, and that has a cascading effect all the
way through the property market.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So a first home buyer looking to spend between six
and eight hundred thousand dollars, do you believe that that
will affect them in the next five years?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Foreign buyers coming back into New Zealand's market will likely
push up the price of all houses in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I mean there must be a threshold that you're working on,
because I can't see it trickling down that far. I
cannot see it happening.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well, the other thing that happens, and developers will tell
you this is the more money they can make building big,
flash rich houses means that they spend more time doing
that in less time building affordable houses that first time
buyers might.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
Be able to buy.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
So it's another example of the government having its priorities wrong.
We should be focused on houses for New Zealanders. When
New Zealanders can't afford to buy a house, that should
be the number one priority of the government, not rolling
out the welcome that for those who want to buy
a house and not live in it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Would you overturn it if you become Prime Minister and
win our.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Bet we'll have a close look at it, but unfortunately,
it is one of those things where once it's done,
it's hard to unpick intently find ourselves falling foul of
Sorry Chris, international tras.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Sorry Chris, I want an answer. Would you overturn it?
I mean it's a simple yes or no.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Well, no, it isn't it is.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I'm not sure that we will be able to What do.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
You mean you whether you'll be able to You can
change the.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Law when we introduced that, When we introduced the Foreign
home Buyers Band, we made sure that that was done
before the CPTPP, which is one of our major international
trade agreements, came into effect. Because under the CPTPP, you
can't introduce laws like that. So we couldn't have done
the Foreign home Buyer Band if we hadn't done it
(16:26):
before the CPTPP came into effect. So once the government
relaxed this rule, it's not necessarily clear at this point
whether we would be able to put it back in
place and still be complying with our international obligation.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Okay, get that. Would you try to overturn it? Would
you make it and make it a name of yours?
To overturn it?
Speaker 4 (16:48):
As I said, we'll have a very close look at it.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Do you really think it's that bad?
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I want New Zealand houses to be for New Zealand families.
We need to stop viewing houses as primarily investments and
start viewing houses as homes.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
No question about that. But don't we need foreign investment
into this country so that we can grow those businesses
in New Zealand to employ more people so they can
actually buy houses.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Of course we need more investment in New Zealand. We
could also do a better job of encouraging New Zealand
investment to stay in New Zealand. Do you look at
the huge pools of capital that we've built up through
our Kei we Saver account. Most of that's invested off shore.
We could do a much better job of getting that
invested in New Zealand and the people who savings that
is already live in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Let's move on to Andrew Little. I mean, I don't
know whether you've seen it this morning. You're in Auckland
so you may not have, but there's a pole that's
just come out that says he's leading the mayoralty race
by a long way in Wellington, have you spoken to
him lately?
Speaker 4 (17:50):
No, I haven't spoken to Andrew for a week while now.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
He's been busy on the campaign trail, and I've of
course been busy around the country.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
But I'm not surprised.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I think Andrew will be a fantastic in the eure
of Wellington.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
How much do you think that he will take his
leadership from the Labor Party? Do you think it'll be
a Labour Party person that will just do whatever you
tell him to do.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
I don't think anyone could question Andrew's values. Andrew's values
are very much the Labor Party's values. But I also
think that he will do the right thing by Wellington.
He will be a very strong voice for Wellington regardless
of who the central government is.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
What's going to happen to your Mary vote if you
don't win this by election this weekend? Is is it
going to really show you that MARII have left Labor.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
We lost them ad seats at the last election and
we're fighting hard to win them back. The Toomacky Mikodo
by election is just the first step in that job.
Will be contesting them vigorously at the next general election
as well.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So do you think that this has got any relativity
to where you stand with married him.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
This by election, Oh, we're in it to win it.
And I think Penny hen Ad is the best person
to be the MP for Toomacky Mikodo. And my message
to voters in Tomacky Milkodo, which is where I am
at today, is that you know, they should vote for
Pennie and get that strong voice for Mary in Auckland,
in this parliament and in the next parliament.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
What's your gut telling you which way is they going
to go?
Speaker 3 (19:17):
I turn out very very low, and you know, I
think there's still a lot of people who haven't tuned
into the fact that there's even a by election happening.
So I think, you know, we've got a bit of
work to do to try and turn out the.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Vote in the next couple of days.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Chris, always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on
the show. Have a safe trip back to Wellington. Labor
leader and MP for Ramatuka Chris Hopkins, who joins us
on a monthly basis on the show.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks There'd be Wellington from nine to am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
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