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October 2, 2024 • 20 mins

Thirty-five public schools could be converted into charter schools under the government's new plan to revive the independent but state-funded schools - but the Labour Party and teachers unions loathe the plan.

So will charter schools actually work, and are they a good use of education resources? Labour's police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and Act leader and associate education Minister David Seymour joined Nick Mills to debate the issue. 

Also, Casey Costello is under fire for lowering taxes on heated tobacco products - products that only tobacco giant Philip Morris sells. Has Costello gone too far? 

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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks at B focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings News Talks ed B.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Pilazi Shan.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Can you make a right decision?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Joining us for politics Thursday.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
This week is ACT Leader and Regulations Minister David Seymour.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Good morning David, Good morning Nick. How are you doing
pretty good?

Speaker 4 (00:36):
I'm here in Auckland. I've just had a great meeting
with about half a dozen school principles sharing ideas about
how to get attendants up, and we've got to say
it's very positive and it's part of our idea that
if we can just take.

Speaker 5 (00:52):
What is working, and there's some principles that are doing
really great work on attendants and then spread it around them,
then we can overcome this pretty significant challenge of two
kids for school.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, we are going to talk about education during the half.
Our Labor Police spokesperson Ginny Anderson, Good morning, Ginny. Has
been a while.

Speaker 6 (01:12):
Yeah, it's been a while, and that's nice to be
back on. How are you doing.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I feel like I've sort of been dumped.

Speaker 6 (01:18):
I feel like that don't feel like bears Okay, I've
been seeing Mike Costkings. Do I say that?

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh gosh, I feel completely deflated out. At least you
didn't say like you didn't say he's been seeing Jack
Tame like David Seymour did done Sunday morning.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
But anyway, let's start with health. Let's start with health.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
There's a lot of frustration down south about the government's
going back on the promise to Needen hospital build There
are many more hospitals in line for work as well
that maybe may be looked at. But this week we
learned that Health New Zealand has floated the idea of
public private partnerships for hospitals or private companies building them
and leasing them back to the government. David, is the
government actually considering the way of this idea or is

(01:57):
it just trying to make some smoky mirrors.

Speaker 7 (02:01):
No, we are, and Simon Court, as one of xmps's
Under Secretary for Structure, has been doing a lot of
work on this. But I think one of the things
we've got to confront is that we've had the government
own a lot of buildings, hospitals being one of the
most obvious examples, and we haven't put aside the money

(02:23):
to Masonance. This is a lot of political thing. This
has happened over thirty or forty years. We need to
start thinking about are we paying the full cost, are
we doing the maintenance, or are we only taking on
hidden liabilities. And one of the things I like about
public private partnership is that because the government is basically
buying a standard of service, then it's up to somebody

(02:48):
else to make those maintenance and decisions because the government
is just asking, well, we're paying you each year to
use it, is it up to scratch.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Jinny, what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Surely it means we get hospitals built quicker and cheaper,
and like David said, something's wrong, you make a phone
call to the building owner and to get sorted.

Speaker 7 (03:06):
Well.

Speaker 6 (03:06):
Wellington's one experience with a public private partnership wasn't a
particularly good one, and that was Transmissions Gully, which end
up costing taxpayers more than it would have done if
just done through government.

Speaker 7 (03:18):
So I think.

Speaker 6 (03:18):
People are always skeptical when these deals are done as
to who's actually going to benefit. But a number of
people protesting in the streets in the need, and the
people feel that they want a public hospital that's delivering
the services.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
See Jinny, I don't think they give a dretz ask
whether it's public, public or private are and they just
want a hospital so they can have operations because they've
been promised one for many almost decades.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
Well, they might do that when they don't get access
to it. So when we had a road that had
been promised for decades and we were still in court
negotiating about who owed who for the met all that
wasn't working properly or leaking, they were the sort of
problems we saw with a public private partnership, and so
I think there's a lack of confidence in how that
would work, specifically when people need health care that's a

(04:08):
critical human serve.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
David, can you give us examples where private public partnership
does work? I know it definitely works in medical overseas internationally.
Do you know of any examples where it's worked closer
to home?

Speaker 7 (04:19):
Yeah, well, look, I will just say something about the
transmission going in a second, but I'll give you one.
When I was on a dancing program on TV many
years ago now people still remind me of was actually
six years ago, the.

Speaker 6 (04:35):
Tworking as I'm blatant in my memory.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
David, Yeah, yeah, well, with any event, my partner, the
long suffering of Melia McGregor.

Speaker 7 (04:44):
She was actually a teacher at a school at Hobson
ball Point Secondary School, which was a public private partnership
building and it was a magnificent building. And I said
to the principal at the time, who was as left
as you could could get. The only reason that he
actually gave permission for one of his staff to go

(05:05):
on the show with me, as he thought I'd only
be there for a week and he'd have her back
straight away that in any event, I said, well, how
do you find it, you know, being a principal in
a school that is privately owned, least by the government,
And he said, it's just fantastic. It frees me up
to get onto you know, students learning, which is what
I really signed up for, rather than being a property

(05:26):
manager when I became a teacher and then a principle
all those years ago. So that would be a practical example.
Closer to home. It comes to transmission Gully. I mean,
I think people get into RP three as a panacea.
Are they evil that are neither? They are a way
of getting things built, and of course with transmission Gully.
I mean one of the issues was everything got shut

(05:47):
down for just about two years under COVID. That would
have affected any model of delivery. Then there were problems
with the installation and problems with leaks and so on.
I mean, that was going to happen regardless of what
your structure around it was. What's important is that while
some of that risk came back on the government in
part because the government shut the country down for two years,

(06:10):
rightly or wrongly, some of that resk was also borne
by the contractors. So look, I think we've got to
be you know, they're not black and white, they're not
alat Panacea. They're a way of transferring some risk and
some complexity away from politicians in the crown. And if
you can do that successfully, I think everyone should keep
an open mind, hardly principle. And west Auckland can do it,

(06:31):
I reckon, so can the modern Labord.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
All right, let's move on, David. You were on Q
and A on the weekend talking about charter schools. There
there's an ability for thirty five public schools to become
charter schools. The PPTA have come out today and said
the charter school staff can join the union. But Chris
Abercrombie also came out and said this, can we just
have a listen to this for.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
A sept This is about the forced conversion of schools
against their will and our members not having a decision
in it, so we need to be there to predict them.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
What's your reaction to this, David.

Speaker 7 (07:00):
Well, first of all, there's no schools being forced against
their will. The law is very clear that a school
can only decide to become a charter school if the
community is going to support it. Now, he might be
talking about a scenario that we haven't got close to,
but you can imagine a school that is failing, and

(07:22):
unfortunately this happens at the moment we put them into
commission management. We have a statutory manager there. We have
commissioners to replace the board of trustees and then eventually
they try and sort of get it restarted with a
fresh board of trustees. Sometimes schools go in and out
of this for years. Now, in a scenario where there
was an opportunity to get a charter operator along to

(07:44):
run it, the first thing the authorization board would look
at is well could this actually get community support? Could
the community actually work. Would these guys actually be able
to run the school better than the other people that
have tried and so far not succeeded in this community.
So the idea that it's against their will, it's very
much a community driven and cooperative scenario, and those ideas.

(08:07):
You know, the government invited failing schools to become charters.
That's pretty remote at this point, but I think it
just goes to say, look, you know, ultimately we're not
doing education for the benefit of union organizers. We're doing
it for children. But it's good to see they're getting
on board too.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Jenny Labor is so against this idea.

Speaker 6 (08:27):
Why they're not regulated in any way in terms of
the teaching standards, in terms of reviewing the school from
the Education Review Office. Is absolutely no guarantee that there'll
be standards in place for those schools. And furthermore, we
still paying for it. Expayer is still up for a
much higher cost per child than they would through the

(08:50):
state's system. So if David wants to set up a
private school that has no regulations or controls over it
and people are free to do what they want, that's lovely,
But I don't think that the taxpayer should have to
put the bill for these schools.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
David got to reply for that or not?

Speaker 7 (09:08):
Well, yes, unfortunately it needs to be replied to it.
And look, I'm disappointed with Jenny. It's one thing to
have your own opinion, but there's so much that is
totally untrue. First of all, are not regulated. Are the
only type of school in that are contracted to get
students ending and achieve it at a contracted level, or

(09:30):
they can be shut down. Number two, every second teacher
has to be registered with the Teacher's Council. At least can.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Someone hold on, David? Could just hold it on?

Speaker 3 (09:43):
It sounds like someone's got their radio and could you
turn it off if your head got it going, because
I'm getting some cerebral feedback on David.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, carry on, please, Dave, and see where do we
get on?

Speaker 7 (09:52):
So number two, every teacher has to be registered with
the Teacher's Council. Jenny may be confused that they don't
have to.

Speaker 6 (10:00):
Be on the Education Review offers. The Education Review.

Speaker 7 (10:03):
Offers Education Review Office is involved in inspecting the schools
and the setup of schools and the oversight of the
contracting process. So that's from and number four, she can
there's no regular Sorry, Jenny, you had a go and
you told four eyes in a row.

Speaker 6 (10:21):
Now a really long though, David, do you always think.

Speaker 7 (10:24):
That number four the education budget funding is for the children.
It's for their education. And the idea that a student
who chooses the charter school which is contracted, which has seat,
is registered with the council, which is inspected by ERO,
which is contracted to get higher results than any other
school in a stricter way.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
But any okay, I need to get I need to.

Speaker 7 (10:48):
Give, sorry, the idea that that student is not entitled
to their share of taxpayer funding because they chose a
charter school, that chose How far out of touch labor
are they care more about the provider and the unions
than they do about the children. It's just disgraceful. I
generally have a lot of respect, but she just told
four lives in the row and it's got to stop.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Juny, you can have the last reply.

Speaker 6 (11:13):
Well, thank you. So the per capita cost petrol is
far higher, so I've seen triggers in six Completely true, David,
you had your turn, and so the amount of money
it costs to set up one of these schools and
get them running costs more per capita, and so we
think the money.

Speaker 7 (11:31):
It would cost the school unrue.

Speaker 6 (11:34):
Finished, David finished. Money put into that again, pay pay
for seven hundred teacher aid workers. That's where we need
the extra support is those teachers and classrooms. We kids
have got some high needs and they need extra support.
The money he's proposing for charter schools would fund seven

(11:54):
hundred more teacher aids right across New Zealand. I think
that's a far better investment in our children the money.

Speaker 7 (12:02):
Who choose to go there? And if you thought seven
hundred extra teacher aide was important, you had success it.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Okay, politics says Day with ACT leader David Seymour and
Labor's police spokesperson Jinny Anderson. I thought that David Seymour
had it all over Jack Tame on Sunday at Q
and A.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
I was sitting back, WHOA David David David.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Anyway, the government released its plan for the last quarter
of the year and one of the forty three items
on the list was introducing greater use of tolling. Ginny,
the government seems to be a big fan of tolling.
Do you think the public will be happy to pay
a toll on some of these roads of significance.

Speaker 6 (12:42):
Look, some people might, but others will already struggle. You
got that on top of fuel costs and registration and creators.
When this is really the government solution to the six
billion dollar fiscal hole in their transport plan, and it
seems unfair that Keys are going to have to foot
the bill.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yet again, David, I love the idea of tolls.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
If we can get a road built quicker and I
have to pay a couple of dollars to get somewhere quicker, great, fantastic.
But I want to know whether the government's considering doing
existing roads, like I know that Transmission Gully hasn't been
fully signed over yet, but could that be possibly made
into a toll road?

Speaker 7 (13:18):
Well, I'm not aware of any plans to do that,
but I just make the practical point that New Zealand
is under resource for the infrastructure. And again I'm not
blaming anyone that that's something that's happened over thirty or
forty years. We don't have a first world roads and
it affects us for road safety. You know, the safer
roads that are separated all the cars going in one direction,

(13:40):
that that's how they do it in most of the
world and where we need to get to. And I
look at, you know, being from the far North originally
or I grew up, I spent you know, days, probably weeks,
months of my life if you had it all together,
driving over the hills just north of Odo, near hot
Water Beach and where while we're a hot barter. If
you know the area now, you don't have to do that.

(14:02):
You can go on a toll road, which is much
safer and much faster a few dollars to do it.
But what's interesting is twenty percent of people still drive
the old way. Eighty percent of people go the faster way,
and I think, you know, people should have the choice
and the option. I hear what Ginny says about the price,
but you've also got to remember people that go the

(14:23):
old way are paying more and petrol more, and wear
and tear in their cars more for their time. So
we've got to start being open minded, just the same
as with the T three. If we want to get
and built, then it can't all just be the old
model of borrows money on the international money markets. Guys,
what it can runs down the assets and then says

(14:44):
we don't have enough infrastructure. We've got to start thinking
of more ways to film infrastructure that makes sens quicker.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Casey Costello's come under fire again this week. She was
behind the move to cut taxes on heated tobacco devices.
They are halfway between smokes and vights for those people
that don't know. But there's only one company that sells
in Philip Morris, and they're in the line for a
two hundred million million dollar tax cut. Jenny labor Is
called for Costello to resign.

Speaker 6 (15:10):
Why because it's just dodgy. You've got two of their
former political advisors now right up to here, in Philip Morris.
They've got strong, tight connections to the tobacco industry. Already,
the advice she's got is came from the tobacco industry.
You can't show where that came from. Now there's the

(15:31):
second part of advice. Christopher Luxen doesn't know what to say.
It looks like she is getting advice directly from a
tobacco company that will benefit them and profit them, and
that is getting very close to being looking like it's corrupt.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
David, this isn't really good enough?

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Why should Philip Morris get a two hundred million dollar
tax break.

Speaker 7 (15:53):
Well, first of all, they're not. It would depend on
how much of these heat not burn was sold. And
by the way, there are other products around the world
that could enter the New Zealand market. Even if lots
of people decided to buy these heat not burn products
and get a lower tax on it by doing so,

(16:15):
it might not all be one company. It might be popular,
and if it is, I suspect lots of companies will
enter the market with some of the products. Now, if
that were to happen, the biggest result would be a
whole lot of people would be switching from smoking traditional
cigarettes which have the higher tax, to the heat not burned,
which have lower tacks but are also less harmful. Well,

(16:38):
then they're still harmful, but they're less harmful to your health.
So if that was to happen, the government would get
two hundred and sixty million dollars less tax, would probably
be a number of companies competing for the revenue, and
people that are currently smoking cigarettes would be smoking something
less harmful.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Now, but David, that's two hundred.

Speaker 7 (16:55):
Million decent public policy outcome.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Well, that's two hundred million dollars that you could be
using for charter schools though.

Speaker 7 (17:00):
David, Well, what you've got to remember is that charter
schools are already funded by the money that was going
to those students at state schools, so that's not quite
how it works. But putting aside your gibe, I just
make the point that, you know, if we're relying on
people buying traditional cigarettes and smoking and in cancer it's

(17:24):
to fund the government, then I.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
Think we've got a problem.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
I think people should actually welcome that the government is
prepared to reduce its tax take on tobacco if people
switch to a less harmful alternative.

Speaker 6 (17:37):
The one point to make is that all the medical
information shows that the heated tobacco product that Kasey Cascello
has facilitated for Philip Morice there is more harmful than vapes,
so they're actually worse for people. So while you've got
a government that's pulled back smoke free legislation, that's got
rid of the Malti Health Authority, it's in all the

(17:57):
steps that will make health outcomes worse for people, already
costing the state a lot of money. That's what she's
doing is enabling products which are worse and more dangerous
than they've not even done a research to figure out
what they can actually sell in the market, so it's
been a stuff up all round. They fun even.

Speaker 7 (18:19):
No one's time. No one's disputing that. You know, he's
not burner more harmful than vapes. That's why vapes are
tax Brea I think gets down with she's saying that
they're not well, actually she's.

Speaker 6 (18:31):
Actually saying they're not as bad as they're the same
as base. She's on record saying that they're not too bad.
She's also on a record saying that caffeines are not
the same as nicotine. Clean and nicotine at the same level.
So this is your Minister for Associate help, who in charge.

Speaker 7 (18:45):
Of the theory.

Speaker 4 (18:46):
Well do you do you believe that?

Speaker 7 (18:47):
Do you believe that it's the icotine that is harmful?
It's certainly very addictive, but actually it's tar and all
the other chemicals and cigarettes that are harmful. So let's
get away from the slogans on the soundbats and just say, look,
we know that he'd not burn as bad for you,
but it's not as bad as cigarettes. That's why it's
going to be taxed fifty percent. We know that vates

(19:08):
are less harmful than both. That's why I've our tax
to zero. It's a pretty straightforward way of doing public policy.
The more harm, the more tax, the less harm, the
less tax.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Thanks both of you, David.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Can I just give you one person's name who you
started the show by saying that you talked to a
school in Auckland, the principal of a school in Auckland
about getting kids to school. I interviewed a guy by
the name of Glenn Denham that might not ring a
bell with you.

Speaker 7 (19:33):
But he is an absolute legend. He used to be
at Avondale and now he's at Wellington College and he's
actually been on the boards of advisers that helped set
up the charter school policy. So no, Glenn is an
absolute legend.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
I was just going to suggest a coffee with him
would be a great piece of because I.

Speaker 7 (19:51):
Have obviously I know Glenn well and he's awesome.

Speaker 5 (19:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Great. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
Thank you for joining us on the show this morning, David,
and always nice to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Ginny. Thank you both very much for giving up your
time this morning to be on the show. You too,
There we are.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
We have act Leader and Regulations Minister David Seymour and
Labour's police spokesperson and local MP Ginny Anderson.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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