November 16, 2025 • 21 mins
Aotearoa's legendary activist, artist and now author, Tāme Iti chats to Nick Mills about the release of his new book Mana.
He talks to Nick about his legacy, and the fight for Māori rights in this country. They also chat about the state of Te Pati Māori and parliament at the moment.
Tāme Iti's autobiography Mana is out now.
LISTEN TO THE FULL INTERVIEW ABOVE
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks d B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This morning, we're talking with a man love them or
loath them, has shaped the soul of modern Ai, Tami Iti.
For more than fifty years, He's been a disruptor, a protester,
and for many a symbol of Maldi resistance and identity.
(00:32):
From the streets to the courtrooms to the art galleries.
He's challenged the crown, he's challenged Paquia, New Zealand, and
he's challenged his own people. I've always felt that Tami's
story has shades of Muhammad Ali, rejected when young, feared
even but slowly becoming respected and perhaps one day admired
(00:53):
as a national icon. But here's my question. Was the
journey worth it for him? Was it worth the scars?
He's just released a new book, Manna that it blends politics, identity, art, healing.
It's not just a memoir, it's a reflection of what
it means to fight for manner and learn how to reconcile.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Good morning and welcome Tony.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It was it? Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
And I think we you know, over over a period
of time, you know, you know, from the sixties, the
fifty the sixties right through the seventies was a really
interesting ped of time for us, you know. And and
so here we are twenty twenty five, you know, and
(01:41):
really really it's a pedid of time, you know when
when where you've got a coalition government that now sabotaging
all of those it's appataging all of those stuff that
we we we we put a lot of time and energy,
not just us, but the whole country. Did you know
(02:03):
in a lot of parts you're putting a lot of
energy for it, making sure we go we.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Are the we are the wrong on the right path.
And uh yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
I think the book will be you know, been talking
to a large they seemed to be a lot of
response regarding people reading the book, and particularly the younger generation,
particularly the younger generation. But they was hanging around all
those young park here, young pilots, you know, when they
were brought up here around in this area in the
(02:34):
eastern Bay of Plenty. Now they kind of got it
after reading the book. And now they they they they
understand now you know, were where we you know where
where where we are?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
You know? Why? Why why are we doing what we
were doing.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
At that time for them, uh in the exes in
the eighties and the nineties, and uh so, yeah, I
think it's it's the right timing put the book, and
I think it's the timing. It is the right time
if I did having that, you know, putting that together,
you know, just a.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Just a brief, just very brief.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Tell me when you started this whole campaign, when you
decided that you needed to fight for what you wanted
to fight for. Does it surprise you now that young
Pakihar young Paki are supporting your movement?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Well, I think is that we need to give up
what the future looks like for all of us, you know,
not just for me, Milordy, not me for me too
or wake couple were where we where we're going to,
you know, and we were just gotta we're just gotta
get over ourselves.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But I'm really you know, people that.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
We boored against, not just us and Moldy, but there
was a lot of radical partular was.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Around during their during their pied of time.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
And and so we yeah, we're making sure that we
be you know, to be kind to each other. You know,
we need to be kind to each other in a
way that we we just need to get over ourselves,
you know. And I got over myself there. I thought
the enemy was pretty wived on here. Yeah, yeah, And
I found that out that, well, that's not you at all,
(04:18):
you know what, what's it the way the narratives and
what we.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Hear from from our bringing, you know.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
And then and then as you check it out there, well,
you know, and I discovered there's a millia of the.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Old Park airport.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Upon the First War War, in the Sycamore War, then
resisted against their own system and resisted against.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
The own system.
Speaker 5 (04:41):
They did not agree that joining up with the war,
the First World War and the Sycamore War meant that
we should not participate in it.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
And uh and so particularly those from the First.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
World War, because I made quite a few of them
and there around those days, and uh, and they met
up with people that uh there was incarcerated for making
their stuns there and pratically from the white of the
area and the Two Boy area, and they said decided, not,
that's not with us, that's not their war. That's an
(05:14):
imperious war, that's a party of war.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Why should we join up?
Speaker 5 (05:19):
So I learn a lot from those old redical Party
of Pols. In fact that there was the one day
kind of triggered me that that that helped me to
reassist my thinking. And uh and from that and uh,
well I think the biggest challenge for me is coming
(05:41):
back into my village.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Uh, the two boys to atalking.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Was it worth it? Was it worth the fight?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Oh? Of course it is.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Of course you know I'm making I'm making another apologies
out those out those accidents.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
It's it's important, it seems really really important for.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
Out there, uh to be able to have a voice
and have a say, and you know, and and fort
defend the future and what this country going to look
like in unexpected the hundred years.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Can you answer a simple question for me that I
want to know the answer?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I'm sure our listeners to has married them now in
a better position than it was fifty years ago.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Well, I think we did a bigger voice, you know,
I think we did a bigger voice.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
We got a bigger voice.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
And uh, they.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Excuse me, we have a bigger voice.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
And you know, and you know, we we built this
relationship to the churches who the political movement through the
different political party National Labor, and we built up their
foundation and for what there with well a conversation to
the trade union movement through the World Council of Churches
(06:59):
and uh and just you know, and particularly in the
Urbian areas within the trade union movement.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
So definitely that it was a with well with will participation.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
For me, you would have heard the news, Uh, what
what's going on with the party Mari canceling, chucking out, firing,
call it what you want a couple of its members.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, well that's happened to everybody, even even the
ex Party was formed by by the Labor Party MC
cabinet members, you know. And uh and all of that,
you know, with the with the Labor Party, with the
National Party, uh, with Winston Peter jumping one party to
(07:46):
another party and Holy Hands to a different political party.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Those those are the ideological struggle that we have, not.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Just within Maori, with within within the Maori, the Maori society,
by the way, throughout the country, in politics of this country.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Can you explain to me you books called Mana and
by the way, I love it. I love everything about
your book. I think it's a beautiful piece of art.
Your book, It's a piece of art. Explain mana to me.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, Mama, Mada, we all got Mada. Yeah, that took
me have a long time. Do you what mona is?
Speaker 5 (08:25):
You know other than the first person when I heard
it with Mona, I had a cousin and.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
His name was Mana, Mana.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Mica and you know, and then you you go through
there and everybody kind of talk about this mana or
then you then you start to pick up over. It
took me an all a long time totally understand manna.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Then uh and and it's really the first thing about.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Mana for me is you know, having having your having arrived,
you have your voice, having my own mother, your mana,
the mother of the children, the mother of the woman,
the mother of the.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Then in your community.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
And you don't you don't have to be a seer
or a pedobal figure to have a mana.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And uh and so we so we we work around there.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Maintain makes you make it sure that all of us
have manna to make those decisions and the manna coming.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Upon the grassrooms.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I've got to go some quick fire questions because I'm
privileged to be able to have the opportunity to talk
to you who inspires you more artistic activists.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
If I think everything, you know, you know, there's a
there's a glimpse of of my my you know, it's
it's it's it's like a like a spark. They kind
of spark your soul and uh and what really sparked
me and kind of figure out what we don't need
(09:57):
the English language, don't need to speak it the of
the English language. And I was totally motivated by the
lady that are paid here twenty cents an hour for
me just to understand gain this language.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I really love language, and so you know, and this
really sparked me.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
And I got really hungry to moon and I couldn't
go to straight and I was still like that if.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
You could do that, if you could do one protest again,
and you know, give me a protest that you when
you finished and you copped in your car or you
hopped on the plane to go home, you gave yourself
a little bit of a first pump.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
You said, yeah, that worked. I felt good.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I think the Landmark was.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
The one one of those situations when we didn't have
the profile and then we we we decided that we
found the faith was in a Cooper. She was a
woman that were in it, and and we needed that
faith there to capture those to to to seduce the
(11:04):
soul of people like my father. We're scared oft ship
is of the park here system, and he was the
shittest scaredest ship is to make.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Him having the voice, you know.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
And and I think and I think that that much
was you know what a really there was a really
was a at that period of time, way back in
nineteen seventy six, that was thirty years ago. And I
think that's that's that's a that's one of well I've
(11:38):
never forgotten there because you about what a mess, what
a what a thousands of people that participate in their egoy.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Can I talk to you about Dame phinla Cooper because
she's one of my top all time two or three
favorite New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I love her.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Never met her, never had the opportunity, but I love
what she stood for. She stood for, you know, being
together and getting it right. That's how I simplify it.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Well, we thought about that, and we.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
We thought about that, you know, when we talked about
it and looking for facing the profile, we thought, well, she.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Was an interesting character. You know. I spent time talking
to her.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
We all did, and because she was based in Auckland
at that time, and uh, you know she was funny.
Speaker 6 (12:24):
Uh she was.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
She had all of the elements of the of the character,
you know, and so it's it's it's like theater, it's
like Shakespeare and so you you you have the character.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So she had all of those, you know.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
But at the same time, you know, we we we,
we are we offer and sting she said, you are
the face, and we got the slogan, we got the clothing,
the one more way that moly led to be sold
and uh and they all said, and then we'll do
the money, you know, we we we are passionate. We're
gonna we're gonna try and and get the people to
(13:01):
the march and uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And so she was. She was a really interesting interesting ladies.
He was funny.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
What scars you? What hurts you?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
What?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
When you when you're on your own and you're sitting
back and reflecting, what's hurts you?
Speaker 5 (13:19):
I think what hurts me is when we don't do anything,
when we see things that are happening in front of us,
and we'd totally turn the brand eye on this and uh.
And you know the many instances of people that don't
see things or don't hear anything, and uh and I
think that's that really consumed me of that and uh
(13:42):
when we in the a situation and people will delibery
don't want to know and uh and but it's the
same token. You'll push me to go further than beyond
break the.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Walls if you have to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
If you could speak to Paka New Zealand and ask
them to change in one way, what would that be?
I mean, I know that's quite simplistic, but you know,
is this something that that could be done to make
the system work better for us all?
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I think we just need to all give over ourselves,
get over our ego, let go over there, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
And I think that we had to let go.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Of our own egos and know we we had to
look at our own reality and and uh, we just
we're just going to face each other and say, hey,
you're here, I'm here, We're going to be here for
the next.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Hundred years, you know, and we just need to move
on and let go.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
When did you when did you start getting over yourself?
When did you start working? I've got I've got to
do the system. You know, shooting your flags and going
to jail isn't worth that. I need to sort it
another way. Did that actually happen in one moment?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Or is it just time?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
It's just time.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
I mean all that this theatrical, you know, it's all theatrical.
We live in this theatrical system. You know, we do
things the you know, and you know in the moments
we we we take we take those action theatically in
in in you know, in the shooting. The pledge is
(15:18):
you know, the system would consistently.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Do that to our to our to our ticka now
to to two our world.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
They put a bullet everything, and they're still doing that
right at this very moment as we're having this conversation.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
They're so trying it to lead the wall of the things.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
The immediately part of the National Party that engaged in
making those move and the lights of the lights of
Jimbojia and many others of his, of his generation, they
have put a lot of heart and put.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Their hearts and soul to to get us and move on.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Then you've got the dumbas that come in there for
five seconds, and then there's the sabotags everything that we
all put our heart and and sold to make his
shoes that we was it the correct way that we
need to pull together.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
They can pull us together.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Do you have I know you're not going to, but
I'm going to ask you anyway, do you have regrets
or wishes that you'd done something differently?
Speaker 4 (16:19):
No?
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I don't, because everything we do in our lives it's
a learning post.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
It's the process. What have you learn most?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
What have you learned? What's what action have you taken
that you've learned the most?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I be part of it.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
If I did, that's a place in what in my
fifty years I'm and I'm still learning right at this moment.
And I'm learning right at this moment because there's a
new generation. I am amazed by the.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
New generation, the generation of my your there.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Tell me what went through your very intelligent mind when
the jail door locked because you were sent to jail
for being an activist?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
What did it? What was in your mind when the
clump of that door closed?
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Oh, you know, you know as as I you know,
really strange in thank you for asking that, because the
judge I just can't remember his name at the moment.
But the judges that jailed me. Then he cast the ray.
The four of us were as he's the two of
us and Ani kpdia, you know, and I was annoying.
(17:34):
I was angry, you know, I had a few days
of it. It took me a few days to get
over there.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
And and then indicating.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
But really strangely because many years later, the same guy
I met up with him.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I caught up with him.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I caught up with him at the ass Foundation fund
raising up in Auckland just a few couple of months ago.
And I caught up with him. We actually both gave
hug each other. We actually hugged each other, and he
had a bit of any Dani bit the tea is
coming down these eyes.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know. We just got a lit go because for me,
at the dumb years, I was that I don't know
not rid of all of that. I don't need to
carry all of those all of that. What happened there?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Can I ask you a very personal question.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Down doors locked and you sat down, and you looked
at your blanket, and you looked at the four walls.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Did you cry, no, breathe you breathe, breathe in, you
breathe out, you stabilize yourself into the space you.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Need to create that space healthy, healthy enough for me.
I never never put myself in that situation.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So you know, I mean, there's other guys who've been
in there longer than I have been, and there's still
some of those guys still in there, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
And yeah, yeah, I just got out. I've gotta look
at him.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Okay, two and a half years. I've got two and
a half years. Let's let us create something that were
going to work for me while I want to intarcrated
in there for the next two and a half years.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I have no moment having teased with it, not at all.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Good on you, Good on you, Thank you. Thank you
for everything you've done for our country. Thank you for
everything you've done for marrying them, and thank you for
being you.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But I think that you will be, and if you're
not already an icon of our country, I think in
hundreds and hundreds of years, people will be talking about Tomat,
They'll be talking about you, They'll be talking about Mana,
They'll be talking about someone that gave an F gave
an if I can't say it on radio, but I
want to say it, gave an F about our country,
(19:52):
about their people, and wanting to make a difference.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That's what you do.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Yes, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Don't think missing you okay, not me, not met up
with me, to your listeners, and thank you to everybody.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I wish I could come back to you and today,
but I can't. But I appreciate you, and I appreciate
everything you've done for your kidding for our people, not
your people.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Our people.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Yeah, our people, my people, not your people.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Donation all they are from.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But the all to this out, you know, we just
need to be kind to each other.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
And the other thing that people don't talk about is
they don't understand when you've got mixed families and mixed fliers,
and they don't understand that they we're all one people.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
Course of course, well no, we we have a different opinion,
you know, and evenly in their own family, we don't
have the same ideology. We have our own conflict, you know.
And that's the nature of a few minutes, you know,
when we just need to get understand how to behave
and how to be time to yourself.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
The book's called mana. I challenge you. I challenge you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I you're the most raciless person in the world, or
love Mariam or loved anything.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I challenge you to buy the book. I challenge you
to read it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I challenge you to read it with an open mind,
because I've read three chapters and it's compelling reading and
it's been a pleasure having the opportunity to talk to
toma Et, the author and the man himself.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Thank you, I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talks d B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
This morning, we're talking with a man love them or
loath them, has shaped the soul of modern Ai, Tami Iti.
For more than fifty years, He's been a disruptor, a protester,
and for many a symbol of Maldi resistance and identity.
(00:32):
From the streets to the courtrooms to the art galleries.
He's challenged the crown, he's challenged Paquia, New Zealand, and
he's challenged his own people. I've always felt that Tami's
story has shades of Muhammad Ali, rejected when young, feared
even but slowly becoming respected and perhaps one day admired
(00:53):
as a national icon. But here's my question. Was the
journey worth it for him? Was it worth the scars?
He's just released a new book, Manna that it blends politics, identity, art, healing.
It's not just a memoir, it's a reflection of what
it means to fight for manner and learn how to reconcile.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Good morning and welcome Tony.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It was it? Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
And I think we you know, over over a period
of time, you know, you know, from the sixties, the
fifty the sixties right through the seventies was a really
interesting ped of time for us, you know. And and
so here we are twenty twenty five, you know, and
(01:41):
really really it's a pedid of time, you know when
when where you've got a coalition government that now sabotaging
all of those it's appataging all of those stuff that
we we we we put a lot of time and energy,
not just us, but the whole country. Did you know
(02:03):
in a lot of parts you're putting a lot of
energy for it, making sure we go we.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Are the we are the wrong on the right path.
And uh yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
I think the book will be you know, been talking
to a large they seemed to be a lot of
response regarding people reading the book, and particularly the younger generation,
particularly the younger generation. But they was hanging around all
those young park here, young pilots, you know, when they
were brought up here around in this area in the
(02:34):
eastern Bay of Plenty. Now they kind of got it
after reading the book. And now they they they they
understand now you know, were where we you know where
where where we are?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
You know? Why? Why why are we doing what we
were doing.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
At that time for them, uh in the exes in
the eighties and the nineties, and uh so, yeah, I
think it's it's the right timing put the book, and
I think it's the timing. It is the right time
if I did having that, you know, putting that together,
you know, just a.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Just a brief, just very brief.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Tell me when you started this whole campaign, when you
decided that you needed to fight for what you wanted
to fight for. Does it surprise you now that young
Pakihar young Paki are supporting your movement?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Well, I think is that we need to give up
what the future looks like for all of us, you know,
not just for me, Milordy, not me for me too
or wake couple were where we where we're going to,
you know, and we were just gotta we're just gotta
get over ourselves.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But I'm really you know, people that.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
We boored against, not just us and Moldy, but there
was a lot of radical partular was.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Around during their during their pied of time.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
And and so we yeah, we're making sure that we
be you know, to be kind to each other. You know,
we need to be kind to each other in a
way that we we just need to get over ourselves,
you know. And I got over myself there. I thought
the enemy was pretty wived on here. Yeah, yeah, And
I found that out that, well, that's not you at all,
(04:18):
you know what, what's it the way the narratives and
what we.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Hear from from our bringing, you know.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
And then and then as you check it out there, well,
you know, and I discovered there's a millia of the.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Old Park airport.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Upon the First War War, in the Sycamore War, then
resisted against their own system and resisted against.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
The own system.
Speaker 5 (04:41):
They did not agree that joining up with the war,
the First World War and the Sycamore War meant that
we should not participate in it.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
And uh and so particularly those from the First.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
World War, because I made quite a few of them
and there around those days, and uh, and they met
up with people that uh there was incarcerated for making
their stuns there and pratically from the white of the
area and the Two Boy area, and they said decided, not,
that's not with us, that's not their war. That's an
(05:14):
imperious war, that's a party of war.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Why should we join up?
Speaker 5 (05:19):
So I learn a lot from those old redical Party
of Pols. In fact that there was the one day
kind of triggered me that that that helped me to
reassist my thinking. And uh and from that and uh,
well I think the biggest challenge for me is coming
(05:41):
back into my village.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Uh, the two boys to atalking.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Was it worth it? Was it worth the fight?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Oh? Of course it is.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
Of course you know I'm making I'm making another apologies
out those out those accidents.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
It's it's important, it seems really really important for.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
Out there, uh to be able to have a voice
and have a say, and you know, and and fort
defend the future and what this country going to look
like in unexpected the hundred years.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Can you answer a simple question for me that I
want to know the answer?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I'm sure our listeners to has married them now in
a better position than it was fifty years ago.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Well, I think we did a bigger voice, you know,
I think we did a bigger voice.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
We got a bigger voice.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
And uh, they.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Excuse me, we have a bigger voice.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
And you know, and you know, we we built this
relationship to the churches who the political movement through the
different political party National Labor, and we built up their
foundation and for what there with well a conversation to
the trade union movement through the World Council of Churches
(06:59):
and uh and just you know, and particularly in the
Urbian areas within the trade union movement.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
So definitely that it was a with well with will participation.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
For me, you would have heard the news, Uh, what
what's going on with the party Mari canceling, chucking out, firing,
call it what you want a couple of its members.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, well that's happened to everybody, even even the
ex Party was formed by by the Labor Party MC
cabinet members, you know. And uh and all of that,
you know, with the with the Labor Party, with the
National Party, uh, with Winston Peter jumping one party to
(07:46):
another party and Holy Hands to a different political party.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Those those are the ideological struggle that we have, not.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Just within Maori, with within within the Maori, the Maori society,
by the way, throughout the country, in politics of this country.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Can you explain to me you books called Mana and
by the way, I love it. I love everything about
your book. I think it's a beautiful piece of art.
Your book, It's a piece of art. Explain mana to me.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Well, Mama, Mada, we all got Mada. Yeah, that took
me have a long time. Do you what mona is?
Speaker 5 (08:25):
You know other than the first person when I heard
it with Mona, I had a cousin and.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
His name was Mana, Mana.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Mica and you know, and then you you go through
there and everybody kind of talk about this mana or
then you then you start to pick up over. It
took me an all a long time totally understand manna.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Then uh and and it's really the first thing about.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
Mana for me is you know, having having your having arrived,
you have your voice, having my own mother, your mana,
the mother of the children, the mother of the woman,
the mother of the.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Then in your community.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
And you don't you don't have to be a seer
or a pedobal figure to have a mana.
Speaker 4 (09:14):
And uh and so we so we we work around there.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Maintain makes you make it sure that all of us
have manna to make those decisions and the manna coming.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Upon the grassrooms.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I've got to go some quick fire questions because I'm
privileged to be able to have the opportunity to talk
to you who inspires you more artistic activists.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
If I think everything, you know, you know, there's a
there's a glimpse of of my my you know, it's
it's it's it's like a like a spark. They kind
of spark your soul and uh and what really sparked
me and kind of figure out what we don't need
(09:57):
the English language, don't need to speak it the of
the English language. And I was totally motivated by the
lady that are paid here twenty cents an hour for
me just to understand gain this language.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
I really love language, and so you know, and this
really sparked me.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
And I got really hungry to moon and I couldn't
go to straight and I was still like that if.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
You could do that, if you could do one protest again,
and you know, give me a protest that you when
you finished and you copped in your car or you
hopped on the plane to go home, you gave yourself
a little bit of a first pump.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
You said, yeah, that worked. I felt good.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I think the Landmark was.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
The one one of those situations when we didn't have
the profile and then we we we decided that we
found the faith was in a Cooper. She was a
woman that were in it, and and we needed that
faith there to capture those to to to seduce the
(11:04):
soul of people like my father. We're scared oft ship
is of the park here system, and he was the
shittest scaredest ship is to make.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Him having the voice, you know.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
And and I think and I think that that much
was you know what a really there was a really
was a at that period of time, way back in
nineteen seventy six, that was thirty years ago. And I
think that's that's that's a that's one of well I've
(11:38):
never forgotten there because you about what a mess, what
a what a thousands of people that participate in their egoy.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Can I talk to you about Dame phinla Cooper because
she's one of my top all time two or three
favorite New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I love her.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Never met her, never had the opportunity, but I love
what she stood for. She stood for, you know, being
together and getting it right. That's how I simplify it.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Well, we thought about that, and we.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
We thought about that, you know, when we talked about
it and looking for facing the profile, we thought, well, she.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Was an interesting character. You know. I spent time talking
to her.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
We all did, and because she was based in Auckland
at that time, and uh, you know she was funny.
Speaker 6 (12:24):
Uh she was.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
She had all of the elements of the of the character,
you know, and so it's it's it's like theater, it's
like Shakespeare and so you you you have the character.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So she had all of those, you know.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
But at the same time, you know, we we we,
we are we offer and sting she said, you are
the face, and we got the slogan, we got the clothing,
the one more way that moly led to be sold
and uh and they all said, and then we'll do
the money, you know, we we we are passionate. We're
gonna we're gonna try and and get the people to
(13:01):
the march and uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
And so she was. She was a really interesting interesting ladies.
He was funny.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
What scars you? What hurts you?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
What?
Speaker 3 (13:12):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
When you when you're on your own and you're sitting
back and reflecting, what's hurts you?
Speaker 5 (13:19):
I think what hurts me is when we don't do anything,
when we see things that are happening in front of us,
and we'd totally turn the brand eye on this and uh.
And you know the many instances of people that don't
see things or don't hear anything, and uh and I
think that's that really consumed me of that and uh
(13:42):
when we in the a situation and people will delibery
don't want to know and uh and but it's the
same token. You'll push me to go further than beyond
break the.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
Walls if you have to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
If you could speak to Paka New Zealand and ask
them to change in one way, what would that be?
I mean, I know that's quite simplistic, but you know,
is this something that that could be done to make
the system work better for us all?
Speaker 5 (14:12):
I think we just need to all give over ourselves,
get over our ego, let go over there, you know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
And I think that we had to let go.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Of our own egos and know we we had to
look at our own reality and and uh, we just
we're just going to face each other and say, hey,
you're here, I'm here, We're going to be here for
the next.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Hundred years, you know, and we just need to move
on and let go.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
When did you when did you start getting over yourself?
When did you start working? I've got I've got to
do the system. You know, shooting your flags and going
to jail isn't worth that. I need to sort it
another way. Did that actually happen in one moment?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Or is it just time?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
It's just time.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
I mean all that this theatrical, you know, it's all theatrical.
We live in this theatrical system. You know, we do
things the you know, and you know in the moments
we we we take we take those action theatically in
in in you know, in the shooting. The pledge is
(15:18):
you know, the system would consistently.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Do that to our to our to our ticka now
to to two our world.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
They put a bullet everything, and they're still doing that
right at this very moment as we're having this conversation.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
They're so trying it to lead the wall of the things.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
The immediately part of the National Party that engaged in
making those move and the lights of the lights of
Jimbojia and many others of his, of his generation, they
have put a lot of heart and put.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Their hearts and soul to to get us and move on.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Then you've got the dumbas that come in there for
five seconds, and then there's the sabotags everything that we
all put our heart and and sold to make his
shoes that we was it the correct way that we
need to pull together.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
They can pull us together.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Do you have I know you're not going to, but
I'm going to ask you anyway, do you have regrets
or wishes that you'd done something differently?
Speaker 4 (16:19):
No?
Speaker 5 (16:19):
I don't, because everything we do in our lives it's
a learning post.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
It's the process. What have you learn most?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
What have you learned? What's what action have you taken
that you've learned the most?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I be part of it.
Speaker 5 (16:31):
If I did, that's a place in what in my
fifty years I'm and I'm still learning right at this moment.
And I'm learning right at this moment because there's a
new generation. I am amazed by the.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
New generation, the generation of my your there.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Tell me what went through your very intelligent mind when
the jail door locked because you were sent to jail
for being an activist?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
What did it? What was in your mind when the
clump of that door closed?
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Oh, you know, you know as as I you know,
really strange in thank you for asking that, because the
judge I just can't remember his name at the moment.
But the judges that jailed me. Then he cast the ray.
The four of us were as he's the two of
us and Ani kpdia, you know, and I was annoying.
(17:34):
I was angry, you know, I had a few days
of it. It took me a few days to get
over there.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
And and then indicating.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
But really strangely because many years later, the same guy
I met up with him.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I caught up with him.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
I caught up with him at the ass Foundation fund
raising up in Auckland just a few couple of months ago.
And I caught up with him. We actually both gave
hug each other. We actually hugged each other, and he
had a bit of any Dani bit the tea is
coming down these eyes.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
You know. We just got a lit go because for me,
at the dumb years, I was that I don't know
not rid of all of that. I don't need to
carry all of those all of that. What happened there?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Can I ask you a very personal question.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Down doors locked and you sat down, and you looked
at your blanket, and you looked at the four walls.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Did you cry, no, breathe you breathe, breathe in, you
breathe out, you stabilize yourself into the space you.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Need to create that space healthy, healthy enough for me.
I never never put myself in that situation.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So you know, I mean, there's other guys who've been
in there longer than I have been, and there's still
some of those guys still in there, you know.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
And yeah, yeah, I just got out. I've gotta look
at him.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Okay, two and a half years. I've got two and
a half years. Let's let us create something that were
going to work for me while I want to intarcrated
in there for the next two and a half years.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I have no moment having teased with it, not at all.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Good on you, Good on you, Thank you. Thank you
for everything you've done for our country. Thank you for
everything you've done for marrying them, and thank you for
being you.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But I think that you will be, and if you're
not already an icon of our country, I think in
hundreds and hundreds of years, people will be talking about Tomat,
They'll be talking about you, They'll be talking about Mana,
They'll be talking about someone that gave an F gave
an if I can't say it on radio, but I
want to say it, gave an F about our country,
(19:52):
about their people, and wanting to make a difference.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
That's what you do.
Speaker 4 (19:57):
Yes, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Don't think missing you okay, not me, not met up
with me, to your listeners, and thank you to everybody.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I wish I could come back to you and today,
but I can't. But I appreciate you, and I appreciate
everything you've done for your kidding for our people, not
your people.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Our people.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Yeah, our people, my people, not your people.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Donation all they are from.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
But the all to this out, you know, we just
need to be kind to each other.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
And the other thing that people don't talk about is
they don't understand when you've got mixed families and mixed fliers,
and they don't understand that they we're all one people.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
Course of course, well no, we we have a different opinion,
you know, and evenly in their own family, we don't
have the same ideology. We have our own conflict, you know.
And that's the nature of a few minutes, you know,
when we just need to get understand how to behave
and how to be time to yourself.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
The book's called mana. I challenge you. I challenge you.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I you're the most raciless person in the world, or
love Mariam or loved anything.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I challenge you to buy the book. I challenge you
to read it.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I challenge you to read it with an open mind,
because I've read three chapters and it's compelling reading and
it's been a pleasure having the opportunity to talk to
toma Et, the author and the man himself.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Thank you, I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news talks It'd be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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