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July 5, 2024 117 mins

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
As media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted
to let you know this is a compilation episode. So
every episode of the week that just happened is here
in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for
you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.
If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

(00:23):
you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
This is that could happen here. We're talking about the
God you Are presidential debate starring Donald Trump and Joe Biden,
which was by far the worst presidential debate I've ever
seen in my entire life.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
There's no competition. There's no competition like I remember the
days when we laughed at George W. Bush fucking up
ed a debate. Would he would clean up with either
of these guys, he would be sashing across the floor.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
You could drop Sarah Palin in here, Yeah, own them.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
Sarah Palin comes out of this looking like Bob fucking Hope.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
So I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Robert Evans and
James Stout. Let's uh, let's get into it. I guess
who do you think quote unquote won the debate.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
I can tell you who fucking lost, Garrison, that's fucking
all of us.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I mean, I will, I'll get into this later. I'm
not sure it matters. But if the debate matters, Trump
won totally. If the debate matters, Trump one.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
You know, that was my same thought as well. He
definitely was a much better debater and had much better
like political rhetoric. He he could form complete sentences, which
is something you couldnot say of Joe Biden. And that's
not that's not hyperbole.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
I actually argue with the first two thirds of your
analysis there, because I don't think in argument terms, if
we're looking at this as a debate, Trump repeated, like
if I were scoring this the way you would competition. Trump
repeatedly followed Biden on these like Biden would goad him
with shit like what he said, what Trump said after
Charlott's Vieler all like Trump's height and him lying about it,

(02:06):
fucking golf scores, and Trump always took the bait. Why
I think Trump won is that this is not going
to get consumed as a debate. People aren't going to
look at this and like, look at the whole sweep
of how they both sure, which Biden would still very
likely lose, but it's less clear. This is going to
get cut up a million ways on TikTok, and Trump's

(02:27):
just got a lot more AMMO out of this fucker. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
The very first thing I noticed is that both of
them looked barely awake as soon as he went on screen.
And so I did get a debate, Bengo, I almost
got two. I almost got three. I was very proud
of that. I guess I don't know, we can we
can go over some of some of what some of
what they talked about, because yeah, why.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Not do you want to hate do you want to
hate Jill Biden's review? Just just get that out of the
way real quick.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, did he get Jill? Give it Jill or judge Jill?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Don't Jill Biden? Such a great job. You answered every
question fantastic, that's amazing stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did
answered him coherently. Not so much.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
We had We had an inject bleach reference from Biden
very early on.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
And that was that was one of his better ploys. Unfortunately,
he followed it up by mumbling incoherently for like forty seconds. Yeah, yes,
but I was glad to hear it dropped. Yeah, he
was well prepd.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
He just did not he executed Peok here's what I'll say.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
I've said this about Joe for a while. If you
were looking at this man, not as the president, but
as like a relative, you would say, well, he's doing
you know, uncle Joe's doing okay for eighty two. You know,
like he's so most he's eighty six if he'll be
eighty six if he does a second term at the
end of it. But like if he were a regular person,
you would say, uncle Joe's doing okay for eighty two.

(03:56):
Maybe we should take the keys, you know, maybe doesn't
he that he doesn't need to be in a home,
you know, that would not be the right call at
this moment, But maybe he shouldn't have He shouldn't be driving,
you know.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
So one of the smart things I think Trump did
very early on is that he attacked the vaccine mandate
but not the vaccine. Yeah, that was that was one
of the more subtle moves that he did that I
think he pulled off very well.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, Joe just gave it up.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yeah, one of the one of the record trends with
Trump is that he really loved to call the United
States a third world nation and say we are now
an uncivilized nation. That was That was like one of
the many things Trump kept going back to because he
Trump really did just have like five things he just
kept talking about over and over and over again. He
mostly ignored the actual questions from moderators. The moderators themselves

(04:44):
did a really bad job both all the questions they
had and also like actually controlling controlling the candidates and
keep and keeping them on topic. But in general, I
think the questions that they did were just kind of bizarre.
Thirdal nation was a very common refrain from Trump.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
And one thing that like Trump, Trump did badly more
than Biden or like you can see how Biden's team
prepped him on it and then he screwed the pooch
on it. But like Biden would say these things that
he knew would trigger Trump, like his weight and his height. Right. Yeah,
the very good people on both sides and Trump completely
felt for that hootline thing.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
You can tell Trump has been obsessing over the little
things that people say about like how he treated handled
stuff like the alt right and whatnot, like he's very
angry about some of that, which is interesting to me
because it wasn't the smart move. The smart move was like,
as Gary noted, Trump very I think intelligently pivoted on
the on the vaccine issue to like still being able

(05:39):
to take credit for it with some audiences, while also
making it clear that his issue was the mandates. Whenever
Trump was on the economy, I think, even though I
don't agree that he was the better president for the economy,
I think that he performed strongly on stage. He spent
a lot of time in the weeds. If we're gonna
use golf metaphors, he kept like bocking shit into the

(06:01):
sand dunes and having to like.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Thank you for raising golf from it, it's you're.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Welcome, You're welcome. Because this had the longest golf digression
of any presidential event of everything, he.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Had like a two minute argument over whether they could
play golf against each other and who would.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Win and whose handicap was what in the eighties.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
What I saw in this is you've got two men
who are not at are past their prime. And the
thing the reason why this in large part went Trump's way,
is that Biden has never been a good public speaker.
It has never been his strength. He has a speech impediment,
right that he worked and got over much of his career.
But when you are older, you have less control over everything,
and we can see it coming back. Right. There's no

(06:42):
there ought not be any shame in that. But also
it does affect the way people think. This is a
horrible country full of terrible people. People do not forgive
a speech impediment. Right. But more to the point, the
thing that Biden is showing his age in most all,
as we all do. It's the shit that we're bad at.
We get a lot worse at, right, And you can
kind of hide how much you've aged when you're doing

(07:03):
something that is clearly your talent. You know, my grandpa
near the you know, late, fairly late in his Parkinson's journey,
could still like gut and clean and catch a fish
really well. It wasn't until pretty advanced that he lost
that ability. And it was almost like you could see
some of that skill return to him. And like Trump
is a talker, Trump is a charismatic guy. He is

(07:24):
good at working a crowd. You can tell he is
falling off in his inability to the fact that he
keeps falling for all of these very obvious traps. Joe
Bile and he spent a lot of time in the weeds,
but he still sounds a lot stronger. And this is
entirely a contest of who can look best on camera, right,
and yeah, it's of course Trump's going to win.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think the first really big topic that they started
to argue back and forth on was abortion. It started
by Trump saying that he is pro the abortion pill,
and he's pro the Supreme Court's recent rule leg which
he kind of mischaracter but that's still he did anything
coming from Trump saying that he's he's okay with the
with the abortion pill.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
He even brought up being okay with a nine month
abortion if it's for the life of the mother, which
was interesting to me.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
But then they spent a long time arguing over whether
Roe v. Wade means that you can kill babies after.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Exactly yes, right birth, And that was that was a
that was an interesting I don't think that that interaction.
I don't know how much it's gonna matter, but it
didn't come off well for Trump because.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
He he didn't come off well for Trump. That was
I think this is one of the few things he
did not do well in of course, you know, Biden
has done very little to secure reproductive rights as as
the current president. We all we all know this, but
this did not come off well for Trump. They were
basically just arguing back and forth over whether Biden wants
to kill baby's post birth, which is just a ridiculous

(08:51):
thing to to argue.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
It was a shameful chain of arguments.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
Right.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
George Bush would have insinuated the same thing but done
it in a way, but that left everyone feeling less
gross and that's why he did so many terrible things.
It's just interesting that we've stripped so much of the
shellac off of it and now they are just because
in George W. Bush's day, we were still the Republicans
were still calling Democrats baby killers. There was just it's

(09:17):
interesting how much of the sheen is gone. Maybe a
little more class, Yeah, yeah, maybe it's not all bad
that we're not pretending anymore, right Like, there's no pretending
on this stage. Both men are clearly not doing well.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
The system itself is not pretending, right Like, we just
got a couple of fucking egyots and what we do and'
stile one of them like something I.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Will never pretend to do is dislike our products and
services that support this podcast. I love them. I would
never pretend otherwise. So go listen to these ads.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
Okay we are back, Yeah, yeah, still here we are.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I don't know. I feel good. I feel good about
America today. You think so, you think you know. It's
not that we're heading in the right direction. We've never
been heading in a very good direction. The driver has
always been drunk right. And finally, forty five minutes into
the drive, he just was like, look, man, I'm not
doing great right now, and I'm not going to get

(10:22):
this car back home unless you bust open the center
console where I keep a handle of bourbon. And you're
scared of the driver because he has a gun and
you don't know what he'll do with it. You're not
even sure if he can really see you in anyway.
That's how it feels to watch the selection.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Let's talk about immigration, one of the other main main
topics in this debate.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
And that went bad for Biden.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Trump had a fantastic line saying border patrol endorsed me
for president, but I won't say that, which.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Is amazing stuff. They both claimed Border Patrol endorsed them too.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, the body Patrol itself doesn't make endorsements, right, but
the Bond and Patrol Union, which is worth the worst
accounts on Twitter, did clarify that they endorsed Trump.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
So there was a lot of bad stuff with abortion.
I mean, James, did you do any thoughts overall and
the abortion discourse.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
The debate, the immigration discourse. Yes, wow, there was a
real Biden moment for you. Garrett Garrison, Yeah, Garrison Davis
elderly members of podcast.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Somebody get Garrison as pet pills?

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Oh god, I wish.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah, they're they're fog in the air and Atlanta tonight.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
All right, the discourse over abord Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
They're bringing abortions with him, Garrison, there's okay, there's a.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Pretty great onion headline report. Oh they're about to talk
about black people.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Oh god, yeah, yeah. Another fine moment of this debate,
the fucking black job sing yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, immigration
and talking immigration shit right, just real quick, Donald Trump
kept throwing out this eighteen million number. Fuck knows where
that comes from. Yeah, that was just all the numbers,

(12:11):
like fully, from the rectum to the debate stage. But
look by a patrol of reported nine point six encounters,
I've beaten this horse to death. But encounter does not
represent a unique individual. Right, people go and come back
when they get deported back, very common, both of them,
like like, the way I actually want to focus on
is the way that Jake Tappa framed that question, because
it was fucking atrocious, right, like it. He didn't frame

(12:34):
it in a way in which either of them, if
they had wanted to, could offer a reasonable compassionate stance
and immigration. Right, it was positive as a terrible thing.
And yeah, you're foxy in it. And next time you
come dming me asking me.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
The scummy scummy shit, Yeah, it was for the For
the record, Jake Tapper should be hit in the head
with a with a I don't know truck or something.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
But podcaster Robert Evans threatens violence against see it at
anchor Jake Tire.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
In a way he supported violence against me, So I
think I have that right with Jade.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
That is true.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
He's he's a dog shit journalist. And this was the
worst moderated debate because Trump is just lying. Everything he
says is absolutely full of shit. And half of the
shit that Biden says it's hard to tell what he
was even trying to say, and there was no attempt
to make it they they treated this like Werner Herzog
would have filmed it, right, But they're too Herzog would

(13:28):
have done this way because like, my job is not
to interfere here. My job is to let this unfold, right,
I don't need now. Herzog would interfere if that would
have made it a better story, but he loves collapse artists.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
These people are journalists.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, these people are journalists. And your job was to
attempt to both hold them accountable to some standard of
reality and also to attempt to present this in a
way that's intelligible, right, and you failed on both accounts.
You did bad jobs as journalists.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
I think for me, the the best and worst line
of the debate in terms of like, oh wow, we're
really in it is is Trump saying that migrants are
taking black jobs, which is one of the most loaded
statements I've ever heard, because, for one, you know, it's
weird on like the migrant thing like that, that's really

(14:21):
your main compact jobs.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
What is a black job?

Speaker 2 (14:25):
What do you think he's applying there?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
I think we know what he's there.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
He's implying farm work. He's talking about like working in
the fields.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Low skilled jobs is what he is talking about. Yes,
that's how he sees this. But what I where I
think that came from. My suspicion is that because the
Trump campaign is still consistently extremely weak with black voters, right,
they've actually made a lot of inroads with Hispanic voters.
Trump in this debate, Yeah, they are still based on

(14:57):
all of the polling I've seen, they're about as bad
with black voters as they weren't twenty twenty. That really
has not moved what you have seen on that is
not really based in much of the way of evidence,
at least in terms of what polling can show us.
They know this is a weakness, and it's one that
they see as a significant strategic weakness. So at some
point Trump had a meeting with his campaign prep staff

(15:18):
and one of the things they wrote on a billboard
is they were spitballing ideas to get black voters was
migrants taking black jobs question mark, And that stayed in
Trump's head totally. They had a million better ways to
phrase it, but when the moment came up, That's how
he fucking ran.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
That is no guarantee you exactly what happened. It just yes, totally.
It also displays a somehow extremely anti immigrant and extremely
racist at all the same time coming remarkable directions. It's
quite something. One another great line was human trafficking in women.

(15:54):
Another wonderus human trafficking in women.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
I'm glad. I'm glad that women do make the human
life though, Like that feels like progress, Garrison, we did it, Joe.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Anything else on the immigration front, I mean, it was
as bad as we would expect. Honestly, I thought that
bad would try to go further on the right on
immigration than what he ended up doing. Not saying he
did well on immigration, but I expected I expected Biden
to kind of to kind of push a little a
little bit more.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
He's not comfortable with it, clearly because he made He
got so much of his win on highlighting the obvious
inhumanity of Trump's border policy, and he obviously has adopted
a policy that's very similar.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, I mean he tried to hit him on the
separation of families. Families are still fucking separated, Like I've
literally seen that this week.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, I just don't think he's I don't think he's
comfortable fighting Trump on this because I don't really think
he has a great feeling about their where they're separate
on the matter, right, So he's not comfortable with that
line of argument the way he is. Like Biden's best
moment was attacking him for like being shitty to dead soldiers,
and I was shocked that Trump followed him on that.

(17:09):
Fucking They talked about that so long. It was a huge.
It was as big as the economy.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
They talked about like veterans for so long, and just
like weird circles that that was an interesting one. A
few other just fun lines that were thrown in, uh
Biden calling them the Paris piece accords, very cool, funny stuff.
Biden's saying that Trump has the mortals of an alley cat.
That's a great line.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
That was a good line.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
That was That was again he this was number one.
He didn't slur any of us where I'm not saying
that to be shitty, but it affects his performance. He
was very clear in the lean up of like these
are the he's a bad person, which he is. That's
a strong thing to hit him on. And I hope again,
we'll talk more about like will this matter? But I

(17:55):
hope strategically what the DIMS realizes that like that is
a to keep hitting him on because it actually matters
in terms of like how voters think of the guys.
It's it's a way to actually hurt Trump because he
is a really obviously shitty person.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
One other thing Trump did in terms of you know,
this whole black jobs thing, is Trump did hammer Biden
on super predators.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, that was interesting to say.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
I feel like Trump actually did a did an okay
job there. And it's not me endorsing Trump's behavior, but
this is this is he like that was that was
a good move for him?

Speaker 1 (18:27):
No, an interesting one too. I was kind of surprised
that he he went for it because that's like, yeah,
that was surprising.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Do you know what isn't surprising, Robert.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
How much we love the sponsors of this podcast? Who
are you know? I often think of the president as
like a father, you know, or like my father during
different times. Right, Trump is like my father that time
he brought a home the movie Event Horizon, thinking it
would be like a fun little science fiction rop and
Biden is like my dad when he's snuck in the

(19:02):
South Park movie, but he had not gotten the right
language version, so we couldn't actually watch it.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
They're all they're different eras of everyone's dad. I don't
know these sponsors are our father. Anyway, We're back.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
So one thing that I'm looking forward to is that
if Trump does get elected, he will settle the Ukraine
War as president elect. So that's great news for all
of us. I'm excited before he's even inaugurated.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Ukraine down that was really the Yeah, it's interesting to
see him kind of adopt the whole Ukraine has cooked.
They've lost all of their young men line. That's not
a great thing to hear in terms of like it's
exactly what Putin wants is eactly what Russia wants. It's

(20:03):
not accurate to like what we've actually seen on the ground,
which is another Russian defensive completely stall out because despite
what was supposed to be like an overwhelming advantage in
theater and artillery. But I don't think it matters. I
don't think that shit's gonna move the election. At the
end of the day. I could bitch about like US
policy in Eastern Europe, but nobody votes based on that.

(20:25):
I do, but nobody else does, right, like, and I
barely do. Like it's it's just not It's not a
needle mover in the same way that fucking inflation or
the economy or crime or the border is.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
I mean, Trump was harping on it because he's just
trying to blame all of these new conflicts on Biden,
being like, all these things happened since Biden was president
and I was president. This wouldn't have happened, you know, magically, right,
And that's that's a very easy move for Trump, is
to bring up all of the bad things that have
happened since Biden's took office and say this is Biden's fault.
We have that with Ukraine, they talked they talked about
Ukraine for like a really it was.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
A shocking amount of the debate.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
A decent a decent amount of the time, like way
way longer than they talked about Israel and Palestine, which
is kind of surprising to me.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Now.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
I can understand how both them would want to just
avoid talking about that, but I'm surprised, like the moderators
like let that happen.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
I guess I don't think, I mean, the moderators let
everything happen. I think I put who I am surprised
about was Trump because he kept going back to Ukraine,
which is not a strong issue for him. Now Israel
Palestine really isn't either. Most Americans don't like what Israel

(21:35):
is doing. There's even a lot of like question about
that on the Republican side. So his choices are either
be all fucking genocide about it and alienate a lot
of moderates, or kind of hedge it and just try
to attack Biden for his performance, which is what he did, which.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Is which is which is what he did.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, he didn't do much of it compared to getting
drawn again and again into arguments over NATO. I was
really surprised that he kept following Joe back to fucking NATO.
It was really weird.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, there was a bizarre choice for him, like when
he had a million other places. His Trump's response on
Palestine I want to talk about.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Oh, that was bleak. Absolutely, that was one of the
worst moments in this country's entire history.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, that already said a new love for me.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
And we've got like what eight seven to eight genocide,
So you know, pretty bad moment.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's a country built on genocide. That
that one, That one was pretty pretty bad.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
So basically Trump was harping on Biden for not being
pro genocide enough and said something that I really never
I did not see coming. He said that that Biden
has become like a Palestinian, A bad Palestinian.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, a bad Palestinian because he doesn't do bad enough things.
What was that? What was the exact line that followed that?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
So Trump says, quote, he's become like a Palestinian, but
a bad Palestinian because they don't like him very much.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
There you go, thank you. We needed the whole thought.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
He's a weak one.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, the Palestinians don't like him, and I hate the Palestinians,
but you should be liked by your own pe. I'm
trying to put together the logic here.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
It was.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
It was really bad.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
But like basically using Palestinian as an insult to Biden,
you know that's not great. Trump also had a lie
how quote the Palestinians and everyone are rioting right now. Yeah,
I assume who was I think he's referring to the
campus protests, just calling everyone at those protests Palestinians, which

(23:41):
is a really interesting like political move.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Actually, yeah, and a dangerous one potentially.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, we knock on wood whenever we may have wood.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
That's a good Trump line. That's a good Trump line. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And James, James was giving him ship for that earlier.
But this is the this is you and your Ivory tower.
A lot of people don't have wood. You know, Ben
Shapiro could only afford one board.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
That's true, Yeah, ben cheron wood once. Yeah, that's exactly right.
You know, small amount of wood at that he was
lucky enough to find it.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
We can't all.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
He put his wood in a little bag.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
So this was a this was a bit on healthcare,
right or.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
Garrison. It did well.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
He was yeah, he was talking about being healthy and
he was like, yeah, I'm still healthy. You know, knock
on wood. We all knock on wood where we find
wood or something like that. But he was being we
have wood. He was kind of trying to Actually this
may be a little bit of like a fuck up
by him because he was hitting Biden pretty successfully in
Biden's age, but then he dropped a line so baffling

(24:43):
that it was like it focused where I was like,
what do you mean by this?

Speaker 2 (24:48):
They were talking about. Yeah, they're talking about being in
good health. And that's and that's where they got into
the little golf argument and wait, who would who would?
Who would play golf better? And yeah, if if Trump
could carry his own golf clubs. A really good line
was we bought a certain dog.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, that was we bought a certain dog. You
wouldn't believe it, a.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Dog that can sniff. And then he just kept talking
about machines that can sniff.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
Thin Why it's talking about these these machines that they
have to suppose to detect fens on the border, which
they've spent millions of dollars on. But they've been doing
this since a Trump administration, Like this is not a
new thing. It was in his border bill. But there's
nothing compared to we we bought a certain dog.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Oh god, have you guys seen the dark Brandon secret sauce?

Speaker 2 (25:40):
No Robert share this immediately?

Speaker 3 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, I've just shed he's lost Jeff tedrig which.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
Is there's a there's a post that Joe made right
before the debate would have started that I'm just gonna
send it to the chat while I describe it to
the listener. It's Joe with like a can in his
hand and it's a cantlash home God damage. I'm on

(26:08):
the Joe Biden water. No, so he's got He's got
a can of this. It's like a water in a
beer can, and it's called zero Malarkey Biden, and it's
got a dark branded image with a laser eyes. Get real, Jack,
it's just water. And then Biden's actual tak says, I
don't know what they have got these performance and answers,

(26:28):
but I'm feeling pretty jacked up. Trying for yourself, folks.
And for four dollars and sixty cents you can get
a looks like one can of Biden water. The se
I'm on the website now the secret to a good
debate performance staying hydrated. The same performance and answers Joe
Biden took before going on stage.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
We need to get just get a company cost on this, guys.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
I'm gonna get wrecked because he looked fucked up.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
I've got some experience with performance, you know, hunting to
device drug users in my career.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
This is if any I miss having a good GHB hookup,
you know, this would be that I feel like that
would get me on Joe's level, right.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
I think only a brain injury could get you on
Joe's level right now.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
That's why I brought up GHB.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
The last topic I want to discuss in terms of
what was talked about at the debate is January sixth,
and Trump kind of tried to avoid the question over
whether he would concede the election, saying that he would
only if it was a fair election.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
Only if it was a fair election.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
But Trump's line on January sixth, let me tell you
about January sixth. We had great borders on January.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Sixth, oh, that whole speed.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
We had a great economy on January sixth.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
It is very funny. I should post some pictures I took.
I took them just after January sixth. I took in
the week of Biden's election of the border, well, just
stopping in random places, like where they got to a
certain level of construction and just stopped.

Speaker 4 (27:58):
Like.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
We found Trump's direction here kind of interesting. He tried
to kind of really avoid talking about his own opinions
on the actual Capital insurrection. His very first reaction was
to say, no, well, the rest of the country was
doing so much better because I was the president. The
moderators kind of forced him to talk a little bit
about it, but he really avoided it as much as
he could, which is, you know, he doesn't want to

(28:18):
alienate his base. He also doesn't want to like, uh,
you know, be too pro J six and scare away
like independence, so he was really skirting that line. It's
just weird because moderators were so much stronger on this
question during the debate primaries for the GOP, Yeah, which
which Trump wasn't even present for. They really harped on
this here and on this they did not care at all.

(28:40):
They really they really did not push pushed Trump on
on J six whatsoever. And it was it was kind
of pathetic.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yep, yeah, no, no, it was.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
It was.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
It was terrible, Like the moderators could well, they didn't
moderate at all. They just asked some questions and then
let it fucking rip.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
I think let's just move on to finally talking like
the debate in general. I think the GOP will probably
be pretty happy with Trump's performance here.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Yeah, he did what he needed to.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
They're gonna call us a dub. I think the Democrats
are probably kind of scrambling right now trying to figure
out what the next move is.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
I hope it's possible for someone to be like we
got time. Throw Pritzkern, throw fucking wit Marin. You know
either of them, right I honestly you know you know Robert.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
This is this is how Birdie can still win.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
I know he's too fucking old. I don't. I will
say I think he probably based on the last time
I saw him speak, I think he probably would have
done better than Joe did in this. But not if
he had a cold, right, Like, that's the thing. I
believe Joe has a cold and that that's why he
sounded like shit. But you know what, A strong young
person with a cold could pull it together for an

(29:53):
hour he write down. That's he could lock down. This
is we shouldn't have to plane like it's not. I
don't give a shit. Old people shouldn't be the fucking president.
They shouldn't old people should not be the fucking president.
Past the past the point at which I feel like
if somebody, like if I was if we were helping

(30:13):
you move and I was like carrying something heavy and
I turned around, I slapped you in the face with
like a board or something or a piece of furniture.
If I have to be worried that your skull is
gonna crack, you shouldn't be the fucking president. You should
be able to Like I should feel confident that you
can jumpstart a car without blowing up my battery, you know,
Like I don't feel that for either of these men.
They both look unwell.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah, if you let these people go into supermarket, they
would be lost.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, it's it's not good. It's so.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
I know a lot of people make jokes about this, right,
people love joking about how old they are and go here.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I was shocked.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
I was shocked at how bad Biden did this debate.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
He looked so bad. He looked so bad.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
It was one of his worst public speaking outings. Horrible,
like in a long time.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Look like I yeah, I am not competent to diagnose shit,
but I lived with my grandfather for the last ten
years as he died of Parkinson's, and it's there's a
shuffle you get to recognize, right, Like, I don't know
if it's Parkinson's, but he's not a well old man.
He's a sick old man, and he shouldn't be president.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
There is there is a reason I put candidate collapses
on stage on my Bingo card, which we did not get,
but we sure got close.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Were got close, very close.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
I filled out almost all my Bingo card, it was
and I did not pick easy ones too. You can
you can check me on this. You can check you
can check the card on Twitter. And I yeah, I was,
I was h just I just felt really bad.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
I feel terrible. I wanted to ask half that debate, Gear,
how do you feel about getting your citizenship? You jazzed, Well,
this is a great this is a great, proud time,
proud time to become an American.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
It is better than it's better than it's better than
only having a green card.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
True, I can tell you it's just someone who recently
upgraded to American status. It is at least it's a
little bit less concerning with a shit that Trump is saying. Yeah,
and oh Biden.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Well, any any final thoughts.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I hope Gavin Newsom doesn't pull out a way to
become the president. I don't want him to be the president.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
He is going to be the My prediction is he
will be the twenty twenty eight nominee.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
He's a very good chance. Really hard, it's between the
smart option based on where we stand now. For now
war for twenty twenty eight is Pritzker. I think Whitmer
would also be a great pick. Pritzker is really good
with conservatives, and he's really good with conservatives without like
folding completely on shit, whereas Whittmer has some weakness just
because of how much time has been directed in attacking

(32:52):
her over like the COVID twenty twenty shit. But either
of them I think are strong candidates who are a
lot better than Gavin Newsom. But you are right, he's
going to be a strong candidate in twenty twenty eight.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, I think that does it for me, at least
here on it could happen here.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, let's talk real briefly. Do we think that debate matters?
Do Do we think that this is a thing that
is going to turn an election? I think it can.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, I think it actually does. I think I think
this could actually hurt some voter enthusiasm. I think people
who are maybe looking at Biden and being like, yeah,
probably if he keeps performing like this, people might just
not vote for him. Not they probably maybe some of
them might move over to Trump if they're like weird,
like independence, Many of them just might not vote at all.
Like I think if if Biden shows that he is

(33:41):
just kind of a bumbling, in like incompetent old man,
that's not gonna help an already kind of die your
situation in terms of voter enthusiasm and possible voter turnout.
So yeah, I think this actually does have a decent
chance to hurt Biden. I don't think the debates will
necessarily hurt Trump.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't think on thiscessarily help Trump, like majorly, but
I think they can subtract support away from Biden.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
See that's where and I don't I don't have a
strong feeling on which way this is going to land either,
you know, in either case. But some of the data
we're seeing, particularly how well Trump performs relative to Biden
on voters who are like not sure they're going to vote, right,
I think this might be the first election where a

(34:26):
higher turnout would be bad for Biden. But I also
don't know. I think if any if this depresses I
think you are right that if this depresses turnout, it's
going to be worse. It's going to be Biden turnout, right,
Although I mean, yeah, I just don't know, I feel
like I don't want to do the easy thing would
be to just like pick a lane and stay in it.

(34:49):
And but I if it comes to my honest opinion,
I still have no fucking clue how this is going
to go. Because at no point has this been election
been about do you think Joe Biden will be a
good president? It's been about are you scared of Donald Trump?

Speaker 4 (35:01):
Right?

Speaker 1 (35:02):
I don't know that you're less scared. I think the
worry for Biden is that people are now more scared
that he is going to sleepwalk his way through a
nuclear war as opposed to Trump at least being lucid
for it. But I just don't know how that's going
to actually shake out in the long run.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
God bless the USA.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
We're doing great.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
The conventions are going to be great.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, stay tuned. He could be dead in a week.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
That really is like the wild car that.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
He could be dead tonight.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Sur on the back of my brain all the time
is like either one of these guys, especially Biden, could
just like not exist tomorrow, Like he could he could
just he could have He could get a little too
stressed out and just kind of fall over.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
I mean, they could meaningfully make the argument tomorrow that like,
that's been a significant decline in his health and he
is not physically capable of being president because that's what
we saw, Like, yeah, he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
He if he was, I don't think they will.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
If the things, whatever things you consider worst, And for
me with Biden, it's it's the border in Palestine. But
if whatever things you consider worst about Biden weren't a thing,
I would purely be like for this man's health and safety,
get him out of this job, get him somewhere comfortable,
let him enjoy his final years, don't make him do this. Yeah, anyway,

(36:28):
it's good, It's not right.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Fuck, part of me wants to read this Jeff ted
Rich tweet to finish at a certain point.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
We're all complicit in elder abuse. But I guess they
but we are for both of them. Yeah, like in
some ways, in some ways, the American system is pushing
these two sick old men towards a disastrous.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's also why I can't trust anything they see on
social Security because they clearly have a vested interest.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Uh, I can't see. I will say, we saw the
president of Bolivia face down a coup yesterday. I think
that that would not be possible for either of these
men in.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
God.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
All right, I want to go cry and go to sleep.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
Oh yeah, it's good. That's good.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Make some friends, guys. I'm gonna keep drinking. Yeah, good,
little mutual aid.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah yeah, I'm gonna buy some of the Biden water
with company money.

Speaker 5 (37:36):
Hello, Welcome to Eat Could Happen Here? We're doing it again.
Several months back, I did an episode about corn, which
I personally think was a huge hit. And I did
that episode with the intention of making this food series
Eat Could Happen Here into an actual series about food
and not just a silly one off pun. In all honesty, though,
I wrote and recorded that corn episode before October seventh,

(37:59):
even though we ended up releasing it afterwards around Thanksgiving,
because since October seventh there have been much more pressing
things I need people to know about and learn about
and keep talking about, namely the genocide happening in Palestine.
And I will keep talking about it because we all
have to keep talking about it. But I'm learning that
in between my episodes where I talk about the most
horrific things I've ever seen or read about or heard about,

(38:22):
my brain needs to go into silly mode or else
I will simply eject myself into outer space. And one
of those silly things I've decided will be the how
did we get here? Of food, which I personally find
very fascinating, as is the history of all things is
very fascinating, namely the history of how Palestine has been
illegally occupied by a settler colony ethno state for nearly

(38:43):
a century of genocide and ethnic cleansing, and how no
one had any right to claim land as their own
that was already inhabited by indigenous people. But I digress.
We have other episodes about that, and we will continue
to have episodes about it. But today we're going to
be talking about something which, in comparison, is objectively kind
of stupid. We're gonna be talking about sea Yur trends.

(39:05):
I want to blame and or give credit to James
Stout for suggesting this topic very enthusiastically when I mentioned
wanting to do an episode about food, and because I
personally don't believe I've ever had sea urchin, or maybe
my brain has deleted that memory to make room for
the worst things I've ever seen, I've brought James here
today to walk along or dare I say, swim along

(39:26):
with us on this Sea Urchin journey and to impart
on us his never ending knowledge on basically everything. So welcome, James,
Thank you Sheen.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
That's very nice and true.

Speaker 5 (39:38):
It's the truth. You suggested this very very enthusiastically.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
I did diggest enthusiastic. I was just throwing to the
never ending knowledge on it, the everything part.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
Well, I genuinely anything I bring up. You have a
story about which I find very impressive. So it's just
the truth. You know a lot of things in that
brain versus me, I delete things pretty.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Fam I've deleted some shit. I don't suggest braging your
brain into your skull if you want to retain information.
That's something I've done a little bit too much in
my life.

Speaker 5 (40:10):
Oh yeah, I think that's wise. But anyway, the Sea Urchin,
maybe y'all know it as UNI, but actually the sea
urchin and Uni are not synonymous words, and they do
not mean the same thing. UNI is actually only a
small part of the sea urchin, the edible part, and
we will get into exactly what it is later on,

(40:31):
but its flavor seems to be quite distinct. In twenty sixteen,
Nesley described UNI as one of the top ten food
trends due to its unique flavor. Some people describe the
taste as rich and complex. Others describe it as having
a rich, buttery flavor that is often compared to that
of fois gras.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
But right, magic, Yeah, thank you for taking my French lessons.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
It has a slightly sweet and briny taste that is
unique to sea urchin. James, how would you describe it
someone who has had the urchin?

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, it's like ocean butter. I think like it's kind
of buttery nurse, but like also like a briny kind
of essence of the sea. Noess, Everything tastes good when
you're like like sitting on the rocks eating it, you know, like, yeah,
this is the thing.

Speaker 5 (41:16):
I like to do, refreshing or something.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Yeah, And like it's nice to get your own food,
isn't it. Like it's nice to it's nice to go
to the bottom of the ocean and grab a sea
urchin and then bring him back up and eat him.
And you know, know that you're also helping to preserve
the kelp, so like you have a little aura around it,
which we're going to talk about I'm sure. Yeah, I
think I think ocean butter. I've never really been one
to like bring it home. I know people do pasta

(41:41):
sauces with it. Yeah, I'm not a big pasta sauce maker,
so I'll just normally crack them open, or you know,
get some friends around, open them up, and then you
get one. You get a nice shell. You kind of
you keep that one nice and you do like a
little little kind of salca or something in there with
the uni, or you just put the oonie in there
and people dip into it. Wow, it's a nice little presentation.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
A whole new world. I had no idea.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
Yeah, so you have to come down and dreamed. And
now we'll do a live podcast everyone from me.

Speaker 5 (42:10):
No, I don't know. I don't after learning about them.
They might be too cute for me to eat, but
I guess we'll just keep talking.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
That's going to make me sad if that's the case.

Speaker 5 (42:20):
There's just one that I keep thinking about called the
sea potato, which we'll get into later. But it's so cute.
I can't stop thinking about the sea potato. But anyway,
we'll get into that in a second. According to Food
in Life, magazine Oonie is complicated. They say, if you
know unie, there's a chance you love it. There's also
a chance you took one look at this creamy yellow
seafood and decided it would never enter your mouth. In

(42:43):
the same article I found, they say that some people
say it's sweet and buttery, with icy, cold raw unie
and sushi as their preferred method to enjoy it. And
apparently it also tastes delicious when it's lightly cooked or steamed.
And some say, as you just said, kind of that
the flavor evokes a dip in salt water. So yeah,
very very poetic there. But again, maybe the most popular

(43:08):
way y'all have seen sea urchin is being served as
sushi ni uni. Sushi is a delicacy that has gained
popularity around the world, and the dish consists of the
sea urchin being raw and with rice sushi.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (43:23):
A cute little bite. But the history of our little
sea urchin is a humble one and its journey to
become a global delicacy has been slow and steady. We're
going to take a look at the history of the
sea urchin as a food source and its cultural significance.
So are you ready, buckle.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
Up, there we go okay unbuckled.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
The sea urchin has its roots in Japan, where it
has been enjoyed for centuries. The first known mention of
sea urchin as a food source dates back to the
Edo period, spanning between sixteen oh three and eighteen sixty eight.
During this period, the sea urchin was consumed by the
samurai class. The sea urchin has other cultural significances in Japan.

(44:08):
The sea urchin is associated with the ocean and is
considered a symbol of good luck and prosperity. It's also
believed to have a number of health benefits, including improved
skin health and increased fertility. However, it wasn't until the
twentieth century that the sea urchin became popular as a
sushi ingredient. Sea urchin was used and is still used

(44:29):
today in Japanese cuisine. More broadly, it's used in soups
and rice bowls, and it's often served in traditional kaiseki meals.
A kaiseki meal is basically a traditional multi course Japanese dinner.
This term fun fact also refers to the collection of
skills and techniques that allow the preparation of such meals.

(44:49):
In addition to the sea urchin being an ingredient in
Japanese cuisine, the harvesting and processing of sea urchin is
an important industry in many coastal regions of Japan. So
even though it's served raw, usually as sushi, as James said,
it's used in a variety of ways, like in sauces, pastas,
and on bread for centuries. Modern day chefs are even

(45:09):
transforming it now into foam and moose.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Moose.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yeah, I ain't got time for that shit. I hate.
I'm sure it looks pretty well. It looks rat it's
very orange. If you've not seen it, I mean, you
get on Google and that's you're driving and look for
a picture of it. Maybe I'll maybe I'll post one.
People use it as a thumbnail for this episode.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
I mean, I did watch the harvesting. I had never
seen it being harvested before, so I saw that. But
the color is like crazy from the jump, Like as
soon as you crack it open, it's just like this
crazy bright color.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
I never Yeah, I mean they're purple, the ones that
the ones you're getting in California are purple. There are
red some purples, but you want to be hitting the purples. Yeah,
if you're diving in California, so will your foot. Your
foot will be purple. If you stand on one. It
is a bad day if you've you stand on the
sea urchin, so it'll spine can go in and break.
I've done that a couple Uh. Yeah, yeah, don't be

(46:03):
doing that and getting affections learned from my mistakes.

Speaker 5 (46:06):
Yeah, please do. But when it does come to sushi,
the sea urchin was considered a cheap and plentiful ingredient
for a long time, and it was often used in
sushi rolls alongside other more expensive ingredient just fill out
the role. However, as the taste for sea urchin grew,
sushi chefs began to showcase it as a standalone ingredient.

(46:27):
Hard launched as an ingredient everyone liked. Today, it's enjoyed
around the world, as I said, and considered a delicacy.
It's often served in high end restaurants, and it can
get to be quite expensive because of its rarity and
the difficulty of sourcing high quality sea urchin. Because, as
with many things, sea urchin is safe to eat as
long as it is prepared properly, it's important to ensure

(46:48):
the urchin is fresh and has been handled and stored correctly.
Let's get a little bit more scientific. I'm gonna mispronounce
a bunch of stuff coming up, so oops. Sea urchins
are globe shaped little creatures that live on the ocean floor.
Sea urchins belong to a group of marine invertebrates called
a kinoderms, which means spiky skinned. Animals in this group

(47:12):
also include sea cucumbers, sea lillies, brittle stars, and starfish
aka sea stars.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
This is some of my favorite little under underwater creatures.

Speaker 5 (47:23):
What a cute little group.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
I love it. Yeah, I love to see a se
by discuking alone a starfish, you know, like I love.
Who doesn't love to see a starfish?

Speaker 5 (47:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Leave them alone. Don't touch the starfish.

Speaker 5 (47:34):
Yeah, please just leave them be. They didn't do anything
to you. They just want to live and.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
They sing down.

Speaker 5 (47:40):
There're the biggest chillers, you know.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Yeah, they did nothing wrong. I will stab you if
you mess with the starfish.

Speaker 5 (47:46):
I respect that. The spherical shells of sea urchins are
called tests, and they're made up of plates and movable
spines that protect them from predators. Sea urchins can be
found in all of the Earth's oceans, and they first
appeared as a species around four hundred and fifty million
years ago. One of the groups present in our oceans

(48:07):
today a word I will mispronounced right now, but it
was the first to evolve. It was the sadairo dia.
Let's go with that. Start to the sea. You can
look it up if you want, but it appeared about
two hundred and sixty eight million years ago. These primitive
sea urchins, they often have stubby, rounded off spines. A
second group of sea urchins are called a kinodea, and

(48:30):
they evolved a little later, and they include the spiky
creatures you probably are more familiar with. This subclass is
known as the quote modern sea urchin. The most recognizable
sea urchins are round, often brightly colored, and covered in
these sharp looking spines. In fact, urchin comes from an
old word for hedgehog, and because they look like hedgehogs

(48:52):
with their little spiky armors.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
Fun it didn't edit, Yeah, I love a hedgehog. Hedgehog
is one of those.

Speaker 5 (48:58):
They're the urchins of the land.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
They look they're not because they're not like they're not
proud relaying the ecosystem that.

Speaker 5 (49:05):
I didn't mean it completely. Literally, they look like little orchins,
but they're all rounded.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Oh yeah, they kind of do. There's one that visits
my dad, oh pretty often. It lives by his house
and he sends me videos of it.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
That's cute.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, I think he gives it like a dog food.
We used to give them milk when I was.

Speaker 5 (49:19):
Another example of me saying literally anything and James, sorry,
don't apologize. It's great.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
I want people to know that you shouldn't give them
bread and milk, that you should and said give them
wet dog food.

Speaker 5 (49:33):
Okay, good to know. Did not know that.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Yeah, if you come across one, they're legal in California. Though,
fucking I'm doing it again. Sorry, you're doing it again.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
I learned so much whatever conversation I have. But back
to the species of sea urchins. There are over one
thousand species of sea urchins, and they have varying characteristics.
They inhabit a wide range of depth zones and all
climates across the world's oceans, and only eighteen of them
are actually edible.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
It's interesting.

Speaker 5 (50:01):
Most modern sea urchins are round, as I said, but
about a quarter of them have modified that body plan massively.
For example, there are sea urchins who evolved into a
flotter shape and have smaller spines that adapted to life
burrowing in the sand. You can get really weird shapes
of these deep sea urchins with strange bodies that don't
look at anything else. We don't know much about these

(50:23):
deep sea urchins yet because they're very hard to reach
and they're very fragile, and this makes it very difficult
for people to study them on the surface.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
I think this is a great If you are a
billionaire and you are listening to this podcast, you could
have a sea urchin species named after you. All you
need to do is create a submarine, fill it with
other wealthy people, and then take it to the bottom
of the ocean to study sea urchins.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
You know what else should go into the bottom of
the ocean.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
It's in the products and services to support the Yes,
how kind of you. It's not hedgehogs. They don't belong there,
none them matter this. Hopefully it's a hedgehog advert Fuck
the police, get a hedgehog in California, acab.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
And we're back. I had just talked about some irregular
shaped sea urchins before the break, and an example of
this kind of sea urchin is actually the sand dollar.
Sand dollars are much flatter than other urchins, and this
is an adaptation that just better suited their environment. Like
most ecnoderms, sea urchins have an internal skeleton called a test.

(51:36):
A sea urchins test is made up of a type
of calcium carbonate called sterium, which is a porous structure
that holds the urchin together like jigsaw pieces cemented in place.
Sea urchin tests have five symmetrical parts arranged around a
central point, like segments of an orange, and this shape
isn't always obvious from the living creature, but it can

(51:57):
be seen on their skeleton when it's dried. Yeah, I
found this next bit kind of cute and funny and
the little sad. But sea urchins can't swim. They live
and move along the seafloor, favoring hard surfaces like coral
and rocks. They have appendages called tube feet, and they
often have suckers at the tips of these feet. The

(52:18):
sea urchin uses the hydraulic pressure of water moving in
and out of their little tube feet to move about slowly.
They can also propel themselves with their spines. That's pretty
impressive because they don't have brains, and that's another fun
fact that was kind of sad.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
They're still cute though.

Speaker 5 (52:35):
Some sea urchins also have these pincer like organs that
look like little jaws, called pedicalaria. These are mostly used
for self defense or to remove debris from the animal
and some of the penicolaria. And sea urchins are venomous.
Urchins primarily feed on algae and kelp, but they are
also omnivorous scavengers that will feed on animal matter. Their

(52:56):
main diet then is algae, but they can also eat
animals too, like sea cucumbers their own kind, as well
as muscles and sponges. So as sea urchins move about
on their tube feet, they scrape algae into their mouth.
Their unique chewing organ, or the mouth part of the
sea urchin, is called Aristotle's lantern. It includes complex jaws

(53:17):
as well as five self sharpening teeth. If something nutritious
lands on a sea urchin's body out of reach of
their Aristotle's lantern, they'll use their tube feet to pass
the food into the mouth. A sea urchin's mouth is
actually on the underside of its body, whereas its anus
is on the top, and so they scrape of food
from the ocean floor, and it makes sense that the

(53:39):
mouth is on the underside, and then when they poop,
they excrete waste from the top of their body. Thought,
that's a funny, little little creature.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
So we are everything living. It turns out the longer,
like all living things are just tubes, right, Yeah, like
for food goes in one end and the rest waste
comes out of the other. That is very true, Legs. Yeah,
it's my philosophical insight.

Speaker 5 (54:00):
And the video I did see of the harvesting, actually
you cut it from the mouth.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
The underside going in the basa into the Aristotle's lanting,
which I know is cool.

Speaker 5 (54:09):
Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 3 (54:10):
I think it's fascinating.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
Yeah, Aristotle's lantern.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Yeah, why, that's a good Scarristotlegs.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
But maybe you're asking yourself. Maybe not, but I'm going
to tell you anyway, how do these sea urchins reproduce?
Most sea urchins reproduced by females releasing eggs directly into
the water, and then these are fertilized by sperm. Some
species females hold eggs in their spines to better protect them.
Most sea urchins will release millions of eggs at one

(54:40):
time and live in huge colonies to increase the chances
of reproductive success. There are also more solitary species. However,
as I mentioned earlier, there are some species that are
in fact poisonous. A lot of them are tropical. They
have venom in their spines, and if you're unlucky enough
to step on a venomous urchin, the toxins can enter
the body through the puncture wound. Some sea urchin's venoms

(55:02):
can cause really grows symptoms like nausea and vomiting, breathing difficulties,
but even the most venomous sea urchin has only been
linked to one reported human death, so you'll most likely
be fine.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
It's kinda suck, I have no doubt. It's probably one
of those things. I guarantee. This is one of the
things that people will tell you you need all your
friends to piss on you, like teems with no just
like if that's your thing, get after it.

Speaker 5 (55:29):
Like why do people say that.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
I don't know, I don't know it just maybe it
like maybe someone said it. No one, no one has
like felt the need to contradict it, because obviously, like
there are very few medical treatments should involve pissing. No
I think so, oh what I mean.

Speaker 5 (55:45):
Trend Some guy just like was trolling someone and then
it became.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like jellyfish stings right, people do like, yeah,
someone h it was at the beach here that day,
and someone got whacked by a sting ray.

Speaker 5 (55:56):
Yeah, and someone was like, piss on. It knows to
do that or are things to do that? It's like
a thing.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
It doesn't. It's a good way to get banns from
the beach for life. Their children, there are children there.
Put it in hot water. It's sisting racing.

Speaker 5 (56:10):
That's really funny.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Have a few beers and go to sleep.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
Good to know, Good to know. The most venomous, most
toxic sea urchin is actually called the flower urchin. It's
scientific name, which I was gonna say, but I'm not,
but it basically translates into poison breath. So, as I
mentioned in my opinion, the cutest sea urchin is called
the seat potato. The sea potato is covered in short,

(56:34):
beige little spines that give it a furry appearance, and
it's quite distinct from its other sharper spined cousins. These
sea urchins burrow into the seafloor, and their fuzzy spines
trap air, preventing the urchin from suffocating under the sand.
Sea potatoes are also known as heart urchins due to
the shape of their test. You can find them apparently

(56:56):
in waters around the UK.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
James, Okay, I get like a sea potato right now,
you have every Oh yeah, these little chaps.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, it's a little little fluffer.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Yeah, it's a little fluke. Yeah, and you can find
it when they're dried out too. They kind of look
I guess, I guess to the you know, they look
a bit like a sand dollar, right, that's sort of
a thicker sand dollar. They've got some pike to them.

Speaker 5 (57:21):
Yeah, they're more round versus flat.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Down in cornwall. Yeah, they get they can get washed
up on the beach. Sometimes not entirely potato looking, if
we're honest. Yeah, there I can see. Yeah, they were
passing similarity to potato, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:36):
I think they're cute. Yeah they do.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
Look when you see them, when they look really fluffy, Yeah,
it does look like a like a beaver or something.

Speaker 5 (57:45):
Wait, how how big have you seen them? Can you
show me with your hand?

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Yeah, like a like a hand size, you know, like
a like a like a sort of yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:55):
Both hands to make a circle.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Yeah, like if you were like if you were doing
that hand hot, very millennial of you. Yeah, yeah, excites.

Speaker 5 (58:03):
Yeah, I do have a heart test.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Yeah, if you're a millennial, you could go up to
them and do that, I bet, and put it on
your Instagram in a millennial way.

Speaker 5 (58:12):
And yeah, and only James will know what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Yeah, well there's thousands of people. All your friends will
think you're cool. Tell him, I told you got it.

Speaker 5 (58:25):
You heard it here first, sea Urchin's cool. The physiology
of a sea urchin is actually pretty significant. As I
mentioned earlier, there's only one part that is edible, which
is the unie. When it comes to consumption, they're harvested
for their gonads, and the go net is essentially a
sex gland or reproductive organ that produces the sex hormones
of an organism. So the go nets are reproductive organs

(58:47):
are the edible part of the sea urchin, and that
is known as unie rather than the sea urchin as
a whole. Sometimes uni is mistakenly built as row which
are fish eggs, but it's not that it's the reproductive
organ and each sea urchin usually produces five gonads or
uni quote unquote tongues that slip out with a spoon.

(59:08):
And these gonads are sometimes bright yellow to orange lobes,
and they're apparently stock piles of sugars, amino acids, and salts,
a trifecta of sweet, salty, and umami. And that's why
I guess it's been dubbed as the butter of the
sea or something like that. And they are also similar
to oysters in the fact that they can vary from

(59:30):
flavor depending on the species and the diet of the organism.
Urchin lovers, for example, prize Hokkaido Uni because of its
umami intensive flavor, which is developed because of the urchin's
diet of the Hokkaido macro algae combu aka the kelp.
The green, red, and purple species have the highest demand
globally because their lobes tend to be larger and more

(59:52):
visually appetizing. Ninety nine percent of sea urchins are wild
and harvested either by diving or drags.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
You if you are buying giosi e. Gens, I don't
know why you would buy them. Even but you want
to get the dived ones, don't. I'm not sure if
you could get dragneted stuff in the US, but it's
very damaging to the ocean floor. Any any of this stuff, right, scollops,
et cetera. You want it can dived better. Yet, just
go and get it yourself if you, if you're able to,
if you you close by the ocean. But yeah, don't,
don't be buying dragneted stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:00:19):
There are several species of note, and I mentioned some
of them earlier, but others include the murasaki aka purple unie,
and that uni fetches the highest price because of its
large tongues and sweet flavor. Another species worth mentioning is
the smaller buffun ouoni b a f u n ba
fun but its name literally translates to horseshit because of

(01:00:43):
the way that these round, brownish little creatures cluster on
the ocean floor. A little note here that I didn't
know about until reading about this, and maybe someone else
out there didn't know this either. Again, I learned English
as the second language. Maybe it's obvious, but this word
sea or chin is similar to the word fish in
that sea urchin can be both singular and plural. I

(01:01:04):
didn't know that, so if you hear me using both interchangeably,
that's why cute little word. I mentioned this earlier. But
freshness is the key to good uni. It should be
firm and bright colored, without any signs of seepage, and
ideally still tiled or crisscrossed in its original packaging. Once
it's harvested, it begins to melt, and its flavor can

(01:01:26):
turn unforgettably bitter and off. In the best of worlds,
uni is cleaned, iced and shipped before it can spoil,
but it can also be treated with additives, including alum,
to keep it firm. These chemicals may contribute to an
off flavor if the UNI gets old. Some sushi chefs
prefer in soy uni, which is shipped in a brine

(01:01:48):
that mimics the salinity of seawater. The global and domestic
market for sea urchin and uni is extensive. The greatest
consumption of sea urchin occurs in Japan, France, and Korea.
Japanese consumption, however, wins by a landslide. The country consumes
about eighty to ninety percent of the current global supply.

(01:02:08):
Sea urchin is a traditional staple in Japanese cuisine. Japan
was the largest global harvester of sea urchins until the
nineteen eighties, but high demand and a decrease of domestic
supply forced Japan to look abroad. From the nineteen eighties
to nineteen ninety four, the US, particularly Maine, was the
largest exporter of green sea urchin. Today it's Chile, which

(01:02:30):
exports Chilean red urchin and accounts for fifty percent of
global landings. Overall, global supply has decreased over the last
twenty years because of storms, decreasing chalp beds, invasive species,
and overfishing. In nineteen ninety five, for example, the global
landings total to one hundred and twenty thousand tons. In

(01:02:51):
twenty seventeen, it had decreased to seventy five thousand. America
has two major uni fisheries on the West coast. Santa
Barbara UNI comes from the giant red sea urchin, and
it's noted for its large size, coarse texture, and brightly
sweet flavor. Back East Maine UNI comes from the longer
spiked green sea urchin in North America. In general, the

(01:03:13):
main sources of sea urchin come from the Canadian maritime
Maine and the Pacific coast from British Columbia to California,
so green sea urchins are harvested from the Atlantic, while
the red and purple urchins are harvested from the Pacific.
These days, domestic supply stays domestic to meet the growing
demand and ethnic markets. Domestic supplies also supplemented by imported product,

(01:03:36):
mostly from Chile during the summer months. On fact in
New Zealand, Quina, urchins have long been part of the
traditional Maori diet, so sea urchins have long been fished
and harvested everywhere where there's basically a coast, from Peru
to Italy and Korea. Reading about Korea and sea urchin

(01:03:57):
harvesting is what led me to learn about the high
who are female divers in the South Korean province of Jaiju,
where for centuries, these specially trained female divers have collected
sea urchins for generations, and traditionally girls start as young
as eleven to train to die for urchins. Their livelihood

(01:04:18):
consists of harvesting a variety of moluks, seaweed, and other
sea life from the ocean. The Hainu are also known
for their independent spirit and determination, and they are representative
of the semi matriarchal family structure of the province of Jaiju.
Another fun fact. I love a fun fact. You know
what else loves the fun fact.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
Is it? Is it the sea potato.

Speaker 5 (01:04:41):
It's the ads, It's the sweep. Oh, the sea potato.
Every time I think of a seat potato. Feel nice.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Let me get you like a pleasure.

Speaker 5 (01:04:50):
Okay, here are some maths and we're back. So we're
wrapping up this odyssey of going into sea urchins and
this swimming journey we've had with James. It's not just

(01:05:13):
humans who have found a way to get past the
sea urchins spiky exterior and eat its sex organs. Their
predators include a wide variety of fish, starfish, crabs, and
sea otters. Sea otters lie on their backs with sea
urchins on their chest and they whack them with a
rock to eat what's inside.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Yeah, it's a cute thing to see.

Speaker 5 (01:05:34):
I love sea otters. They are so cute.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
They very adorable.

Speaker 5 (01:05:38):
Lying on their backs, It's like little guys go to position.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
They keep a little stone with them.

Speaker 5 (01:05:45):
Yeah, cute, so cute. But sea urchins are actually not
just used by people solely in cuisine, perhaps because of
their mysterious shapes. Fossils of sea urchin tests have also
been historically used as protective amulets to ward off evil
Apparently in southern England, James, some sea urchin fossils were

(01:06:06):
traditionally thought to be thunderbolts frozen in rock, and these
thunderstones were thought to protect a house from being struck
by lightning. Interesting, I'm teaching you about your culture.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
Yes, that's it.

Speaker 5 (01:06:27):
And as James mentioned at the top, climate change is
of course affecting sea urchins, and climate change is affecting everything.
Sea urchins are sensitive to changes in their environment. They
can act as an early warning system for potential problems
in their ecosystem, as well as rising temperatures. Ocean acidification

(01:06:47):
and rising temperatures are probably the biggest long term threat
to see urchins as a whole. Increasing ocean acidification increases
the rate at which calcium carbonate dissolves, so as things
get more acidic, it will likely become harder and harder
for sea urchins to accumulate enough calcium carbonate to make
a solid test, and their tests will then get thinner

(01:07:07):
and weaker. Experiments in labs have shown that this can
happen even with very minor increases in a certification. Sea
urchins in this way can help illustrate why it's so
important to protect the balance of nature in our already
threatened ocean ecosystems. So that's the sea urchin.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Yeah, if you live in like northern or central California,
as the water gets hotter, the kelp begins to die
and the dead little pieces of kelp are fed upon
by the sea urchins, and so the sea urchin population
has like ballooned and they're taking over the kelp. You
get what it called like barrens urchin barrens where it
used to be like a kelp forest. You're amazing. If

(01:07:49):
you've never dived in a help forest, you should dive
in a help forest. I mean, don't fucking just do it.
If you don't know what you're doing, you'll die. But
you know, provided you're capable of free diving or scuba diving.
But now they're gone, right, and it's just beds of urchins,
which is really sad because the colp obviously is a
sustaining part of that holy ecosystem. So yeah, be nice

(01:08:09):
to the oceans.

Speaker 5 (01:08:11):
Please be nice.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
You can gather them without even diving. You can gather
them on the in the intertidal there they'll be going.
There'll be like getting cliffed out. Right, don't go to
a place where there is no beach at high tide
and then hang around there until the tide gets high,
because I'm going to have to swim then. So don't
don't be doing that. Be sensible, respect the ocean. Yeah,
I love a sea urchin. Well, I'll put a picture
of one I love to I love to show them.

(01:08:34):
This is my This is my weird like toxic trait. Yeah, yeah,
my doxic trait. Yeah. My toxic trait is showing children
sea urchin like potato. Yeah. Well I I'm in California. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm not just walking up to kids and you're whacking

(01:08:54):
out my iPhone, Cherie, I'm not weird.

Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
If I'm gathering sea urchins on a free dive, then
I'll come back into the beach.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
I have a little body board and I have a
bag on it, but the urchin's in there. I'm sure
kids love that.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
I mean, I remember like going to those like aquariums
where you stick your hand in the water as a child,
you don't know any better, and like the little starfish
and everything. That was the most interesting part. So I'm
sure the kids love that shit.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Kids love a creature.

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
Yeah, you learn anything about sea urchins.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I learned a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Yeah, I don't awful lot about it, Like I didn't
know anything about these these excited about these Korean ladies.
Pretty going to google that later.

Speaker 5 (01:09:33):
Yeah, I feel like they des are more of a
deep dive. I'm intended magic incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
Maybe there'll be my next podcast series. I'll there. I've
contrived ways to free dive on when I went free
diving a lot in the Marshall Islands at six. I'm
stoked for iHeartRadio to pay for me to go free
diving somewhere else.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Advocate for that petition, write a lot union involved anyway.
That's this episode of it could happen here and until
next time. Important pickup alert, We're back. James alerted me
to a fact that was too important to not include
in this episode. James, what did I miss?

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
What you're missuring was the eighth wonder of the world,
which is sea urchins wearing little hats.

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
That's right, folks, see urchins wearing little hats.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
Yeah, this is where we fact check all our reporting
exactly to bring you the cutting edge shear professional journalism.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
So what are we talking about? We talked about tube feet, right.
Urchins move using their little tube feet, and they contract
small muscles that force water into the tube foot to
take each step, and the end of each tube foot
is very, very sticky. They used to be described as
suction cups, but now researchers are thinking of them more
as like a bioadhesive rather than a suction that sticks

(01:10:54):
to things, including the floor. And they use the stick
he tube feet to pick up and hold on to
raw shells, golf balls, and other little treasures, treasures including
tiny hats. Behaviorally, collogists call urchin hats quote unquote covering behavior.
They don't call the hats that, but they call the
act of them covering themselves covering behavior. That name is

(01:11:16):
related to the first and most prevalent hypothesis about this phenomena,
that the urchins are covering themselves to provide shelter from
light predators or maybe even both. There are experiments which
confirm the light hypothesis. Researchers in Ireland found that when
the urchins were exposed to the full spectrum of UV light,

(01:11:36):
they would pick up their little hats and or move
to a shady corner of their tanks in order to
avoid harmful UV radiation. Around the same time of these findings,
another scientist in California was studying the covering behavior of
Pacific rose flower urchins. The rose urchin study wasn't conducted
in a lab. Instead, the urchin behavior was observed in

(01:11:59):
their natural habitat, and what they found was that the
sample site with the greatest wave energy had the most
covering behavior among the urchins. So what is it sun
safety or is it like a protective gear like seat
belts or kneepads. Are they protecting themselves from currents and
wave damage instead of floating away? Or are they afraid

(01:12:19):
of the sun? Researchers have tested several factors simultaneously to
trace the covering behavior to its source. In the lab,
green urchins were exposed to common predators, wave surges and
algae blades, as well as sunlight, and as it turns out,
predators were a bust. Their presence had no significant impact

(01:12:40):
on the rate of covering behavior, so it's not necessarily
camouflaged for all urchins, and similarly to how sea stars
can regenerate lost arms, urchins are also constantly regenerating loss
and broken spines. But this regeneration takes energy, and so
for some urchins it might be a safer bet, particularly

(01:13:01):
for a small urchin who is vulnerable to dislodgment and damage,
to pick up some extra weight and put on a
little sun protection at the same time. And of course,
because humans are humans. Once three D printing came along,
people started making sea urchins tiny little urchin hats, which
is why I keep calling them hats, because now they
are hats and people have them in aquariums or in

(01:13:22):
their personal urchin tank, because sure enough, these urchins will
skitter along and pick these hats up and put them
on their head, which we now know is actually their butt,
but they put them on the top of themselves. Not
all urchins, right, little ass hat.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
That's funny, urchin ass hat. What a great band it
could be.

Speaker 5 (01:13:44):
That's a great band name.

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
Yeah yeah, if you are listening and in need of
a sort of like a you're welcome, yeah, like Blink
one eight two, that kind of music. I think that's
what I associate with urchin asshole.

Speaker 5 (01:13:54):
I agree urchin asset. Not all urchins wear hats and
a Canadian state he found that smaller urchins are the
ones that are more likely to cover up, and the
logic behind their covering behavior it seems to depend, as
I said, on the species of urchin and the environment
day in habit So out in more tropical regions, the
collector urchin as it's called it may be protecting itself

(01:14:17):
from the sun and these urchins can be found in
shallow waters off of Hawaii, the Indo Pacific in the Bahamas,
and this is where they're exposed to a lot of sunlight. Meanwhile,
researchers think that the green sea urchin uses its adornments
to weigh itself down, and this species tends to live
in the shallow waters of the northern Atlantic and Pacific

(01:14:39):
Oceans where it gets constantly battered by waves. Wherever there
is a lot of wave activity, the urchin heavily covers
up the top and the sides of its body with
whatever it can find, which helps make it heavy enough
to avoid getting swept away. And then further south, Antarctic
urchins have been found to cover themselves as a w

(01:15:00):
to avoid predators. Their main predators are king crabs and
c aneemies, and researchers found that they were more likely
to put on coverings when predators were around. In a
lab experiment, another species of urchin was more likely to
survive being exposed to a predator if it was given
shells to cover itself, So these decorations may be type

(01:15:21):
of camouflaged to keep some urchins from being found and eaten,
not necessarily all urchins. And then there's the Kina, a
large urchin found in New Zealand. This urchin seems to
use the item that it collected as a food source.
Researchers found that this species was covering itself even in
the dark, which suggested that it wasn't trying to protect

(01:15:44):
itself from sunlight, and its predators don't rely on site
to find their prey, so camouflaging itself would be pointless.
In a field study, they found that these urchins were
carrying algae aka a source of their little urchin food
and basically carrying around like a snack bag or a
fridge for themselves, which can be helpful because these urchins

(01:16:07):
might not always have a lot of algae around for grazing.
So now you know about little hats and the little
things that urchins do to cover themselves and collect things.
I didn't realize that it was more than just covering
their little ass hats or ass heads rather, but yeah,
I thought it was really interesting and good good on

(01:16:27):
James to remind us to talk about urchan hats.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
Yeah, great, many things that I've learned recently. Got a
TikTok account, so I'm learning a lot. Whoa yeah, And
it's not like I'm not I'm not tiktoking, and I
just want to be extremely clear about this. I got
it because lots of the folks in me and I
used TikTok to you. Oh nice tip to communicate with
the world. So I've been tiktoking and I've learned a lot,

(01:16:51):
learning a lot about Taylor Swift and Olivia and chids
that's not necessary.

Speaker 5 (01:16:56):
Thank you James for joining me on this swimming journey
of urchin facts and things. I when you suggested talking
about the urchins, I did not expect them to be
so cute and so interesting, So thank you for that.
And if you have an urchin around, go get a

(01:17:18):
little hat, be its little buddy.

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
Get on Etsy, I've just been looking. Oh no, go on, Etsy,
gonta have Viking. I think that was one's the.

Speaker 5 (01:17:27):
Most that's funny anyway. Okay, that's now the end of
this episode, so you're welcome for this update and uh bye.

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):
Welcome zikaap Here, a podcast that is droning under the
oppression of whoever keeps changing the stupid zoom interface. It's
different every time. It always gets worse. It never gets better.
Please stop.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
We had trads for zoom zoom layout.

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
Just get it, get it one time, put the recording
thing on the stupid panel on the bottom, and then
never change it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
It simply never gets better.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
H Yeah, this is be a who's extremely annoyed at
zoom with me is javes.

Speaker 3 (01:18:27):
Yep, also extremely annoyed at zoom high just in solidarity
with Mia fucking yeah, and also also extremely annoyed.

Speaker 4 (01:18:34):
Right now is the man stages the world's worst coup
ask to report to prison.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
I don't think we can call it the world's worst coupa.
That's a bold claim. You're forgetting Silver Corp.

Speaker 4 (01:18:47):
No, So, okay, here's the thing about Silver Corp. Right,
the guys who defeated Silver Corp. Had guns, Yeah, but
Silver Corp didn't. They had BB guns.

Speaker 3 (01:18:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):
But here's the thing, right they they those guys again,
those guys did not have real guns. Defeated by guys
with guns. These guys had guns. They had a lot
of guns. They were defeated by people with flags.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
Yeah. Yeah, and a guy standing in a doorway being like, no,
you can't come in, go home? You know, so we
we we are.

Speaker 4 (01:19:22):
I genuinely believe this is the worst cup I've ever
seen in my entire life. And you know, we've lived
through Venezuela one I I I distinctly remember stepping out
of a post office and checking my phone and getting
eighteen messages from my friends that said, do you do you?

Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
What do you know about the coup and Turkey? That
was a terrible coup.

Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
Was they they could have they could have just saved
us all this trouble of shot aired when Douf a
jet fighter, But they didn't, you know, And there's there's
been plenty of bad ones. There was that that coup
recently in the Democratic public at the congo To fiasco. Yeah, hilariously,
this coup and Bolivia recovering today happened exactly one year
and three days after the March of the Wagner Core.

Speaker 3 (01:20:01):
Oh yeah, I've got to forgot about that one?

Speaker 4 (01:20:03):
What if?

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
Wow?

Speaker 5 (01:20:05):
Yeah, Well we wanted to try it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Guys, if you believe you can achieve give it a
go to a coup if you want to, why not
gonna trump pee try one?

Speaker 5 (01:20:13):
Did what?

Speaker 3 (01:20:14):
Very well? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Yeah, I mean we really, I mean I also, I mean,
we can't forget January ninth, even the the well, I don't,
I don't because January sixth was already farce, but like
we forgot the farcest, farst version of it in Brazil.

Speaker 3 (01:20:29):
Yeah, yea, even there. Yeah yeah, they owed a building coupe.

Speaker 4 (01:20:33):
Yeah, lots of lots of very stupid cues, but this
this is probably the worst one. And so we're going
to be explaining sort of what happened. But the thing
about this coupe is that in order to understand what's
happening with this coup, we have to get through I
think a part of oblivion history that has not been

(01:20:56):
really well understood or talk on the left, which is
effectively what happened in Bolivia.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
After the coup in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
I think I think people sort of know that there
was a coup and that it got overturned, but coma
that was sort of the point at which which the
sort of Anglo media and like the sort of press
that hits the left here kind of just took off.
So you have your sort of twenty nineteen coup. The
place where sort of everything getting lost kind of starts

(01:21:28):
is that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:29):
So there's this coup.

Speaker 4 (01:21:30):
The left sort of response to the coup is not
very strong because the sort of social movements have been
hallowed out by their sort of incorporation into the Bolivian state,
so they don't they sort of just don't have the
juice to really kind of you know, roll this coup back.

(01:21:51):
This is this is makes basically this is the twenty
nineteen coup, not the twenty twenty four coup. Yeah, and
you know the thing about the twenty nineteen coup that
makes it very different from this one is that that
one was you know, there was a broad base of
support for this right in this sort of in this
sort of like far right out of Santa Cruz and
also out of sort of like like more moderate center
right factions. So you know, there are sort of large

(01:22:15):
street with favor of this. This is not true if
mose recent.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
One, yeah, absolutely not.

Speaker 4 (01:22:22):
Yeah, but you know, by by by twenty twenty, as
twenty twenty is sort of progressing. A Anya's coup government is
a fiasco. Their management of COVID is just terrible, enormous
numbers of deaths. I mean actually I mean not by
American standards, I guess, but you know, really really mismanaged.
I mean my I have friends there who were talking
about how if you were going to the hospital and

(01:22:44):
you needed to use like a piece of medical equipment,
you had to buy the medical equipment or a part
to fix the machine and then show up to the
hospital with the part because they couldn't order it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:54):
Yeah. I've yeah, I've seen that in a few places
in the world. It's never never a good time.

Speaker 4 (01:22:59):
Yeah, it's it's not good. It was a real shit show.
And by By sort of I think about September, early
September twenty ninth of twenty twenty, there are the left
has sort of gotten it shipped together and there are
these this massive set of roadblocks. Bolivian Blivion social politics
tends to sort of be about roadblocks because you know,
country a lot of mountains, a lot of roads you

(01:23:21):
can very easily block off and then prevent anything from
you know, for example, entering a city.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
Yep, good idea.

Speaker 4 (01:23:28):
So they're they're able to just basically shut down the
Blivion economy. The government is once again on the Vergia
collapse and once again and we'll get to the first
time this happened, but even Morallies once again sort of
pulls the supporters off of the barricade so he can
go win an election rather than you know, attempt to
just bring down the sort of coup government.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
So you know that eventually happens.

Speaker 4 (01:23:50):
The government is forced to hold elections because you know,
they've they've lost control of the country, and the MS
takes you know, wins this election by overwhelming margins. The
MAS is even Morales' party, it's the sort of like
party of.

Speaker 3 (01:24:04):
The oblivion Left. But yeah, the guy comes to the power.
As Lewis R.

Speaker 4 (01:24:08):
Say, he's an interesting figure because he is kind of
what we're going to get more into sort.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
Of what the MAS is in a bit. But he
is from a kind of right wing of the party
that's not talked about very much. Yeah, he he is.

Speaker 4 (01:24:25):
A you know he's not a guy who comes from
the social movements and in the way that sort of
Morales did like he was even Moreles was a guy
from the co He was like the president of the
coca growers Union. Arsay is a banker. He's an an
economist and a banker. He comes out of the Central
Bank of Bolivia and.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
He he has had.

Speaker 4 (01:24:45):
Been kind of the guy running Bolivian economic policy. But
but he is from the developmentalist wing of the party,
which means he is effectively from the wing of the
party that are the kind of like center left capitalists
that the social moments kind of allied themselves to under
Moralees in order to do this sort of national economic
development policy. So these are a lot of these are

(01:25:06):
a lot of mining sector guys. These are a very
specific sort of cadra of these central bank guys, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
And I think this is the part.

Speaker 4 (01:25:17):
The thing about the MS that's kind of relevant here
is that it usually also has a base support among
people you wouldn't expect. I mean, there's a lot of
small business owners who support them, because you know, the
maas really did for most of the time they've been
in power preside over sort of astonishing economic growth. They
sort of did this by marrying these social movements to

(01:25:37):
this kind of national bourgeoisie developmentalis faction.

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:41):
And the other thing that that the MAAS sort of
does in the period between when they come back to
power in late twenty twenty twenty twenty one and now
is they do they actually go after the people who
did the coup, right, and yes, he was the previous
president is just in prison for helping you do the coup.
The other big person who's been arrested is Luis Fernando Camacho,

(01:26:02):
who is a man who, in one hundred percent complete
seriousness calls himself Basho Camacho. So that's that's a sign, Yeah,
that that that's an odication of who this guy is,
which is he is a really fanatical, really fanatical Christian nationalist.

Speaker 3 (01:26:21):
He's playing a very similar.

Speaker 4 (01:26:23):
Role to I mean, actually, I think even even in
a lot of ways sort of more radical role to
what Bolsonaro played in Brazil, where Camasho in Bolivia is
this kind of he he's the guy who's rallied both
sort of Evangelicalism and Catholicism, of those rallied both of
them into this sort of virulent and and and specifically

(01:26:43):
in Bolivia, anti indigenous sort of political force. The the
twenty nineteen coup is seen in very very explicitly is
seen in religious terms. Both Idias and Cabacho talk about
how like the word of God is back at the
capitol and the but like all of the sort of
indigenous various indigenous stuff is just never going to come back.

(01:27:04):
So Kamacho gets arrested in twenty twenty two for you know,
doing this coup, and this sets off so he, by
the way, like is the governor of the state of
Santa Cruz, and this sets off a bunch of like
a right wing general strike, a bunch of riots, like
hundreds of people are injured in street fighting between his
sort of fanatics and everyone else in the country. It

(01:27:28):
does an enormous amount of economic damage. It sets off
sort of roadblocks the government, I mean Kamacho I think
also is still in prison, but it kind of, you know,
the government's kind of forced to make concessions to these people.
So you know, the whole the whole sort of ur say,
government is kind of on shaky footing from the beginning.

(01:27:49):
And all of this is before the Bolivian economy really
hits the ship. But before before we get to the
Bolivian economy, do you know what else hits the ship?

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Oh uh?

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Is it the meal kit preparation delivery service that we
are not allowed to mention for leader reasons. It is, yes, yeah, yes, yeah,
you'll be pooping your brains out. Don't do it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:24):
We are back, so let's talk about the other thing
that's happening in Bolivia.

Speaker 3 (01:28:28):
Well, okay, see other.

Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
Thing, the one of the four other things that's reppening
in Bolivia, and that is the real.

Speaker 3 (01:28:39):
Sort of collapse of the Bolivian economy.

Speaker 4 (01:28:42):
So the Bolivian economy Blivia has been kind of different
from the rest of the sort of kind of left wing,
pink tied governments that were elected in the in the
in the sort of two thousands era sort of anti
globalization politics. Most of those countries' economies employed did a
long time ago, like Venezuela is sort of obviously the
most famous case, but all of these economies fell apart

(01:29:05):
because these were all economies based on the commodity boom.

Speaker 3 (01:29:08):
We've talked about this in some of.

Speaker 4 (01:29:09):
Our Brazil episodes, but the very short version is that
a lot of a lot of countries that produce sort
of primary commodities, so like you know, your copper, your
sort of your natural gas, you know, I mean things
like soybeans to kind of fall in this category. You know,
so you're you're you're sort of minding stuff, or you're
some some of you some of your farming stuff. All

(01:29:30):
of these sort of industrial input primary commodity stuff all
got you know, massive price spikes in early two thousands
because the Chinese economy had integrated into into the rest
of the world economy fully by you know, joining the
joining the World Trade Organization, and this set off this
massive industrialization boom in.

Speaker 3 (01:29:51):
China, and you know, the Chinese.

Speaker 4 (01:29:53):
The the levels of sort of demand that this induces
is unbelievable because Chinese economic growth in that period is unreal,
and it's it's economic growth that is unreal in a
country with a billion people in it. So this produced
a kind of shock of demand for all of these
sort of mineral resources that was not entirely unprecedented, but

(01:30:16):
enormously large, and also allowed all of these sort of
social democratic economies to you know, kind of paper over
the inherent contradictions of their base being both capitalists and
also a bunch of like unions by there just sort
of being enough state revenue from all of these all
of these exports to just kind of buy everyone off.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
Of paper everything clantalism.

Speaker 4 (01:30:38):
Yeah, yeah, and that stops working when the economy goes under.
But Bolivia's economy does a lot better than the rest
of the economies in the region.

Speaker 3 (01:30:46):
There are there are a lot of reasons for this.

Speaker 4 (01:30:48):
Part of it is that you know, are say, who
is running the economy of Bolivia in the sort of
the period, like post two thousand and eight period, when
everyone else economies are collapsing. He is genuinely doing some
pretty interesting macroeconomic stuff. Also, the other thing that's going
on is that Bolivia main expert and people. Okay, so

(01:31:09):
people in the US tend to think of Bolivia as
a country that produces lithium. That's not true. That might
be true maybe thirty years in the future that will
be Bolivia's primary export. But Bolivia's primary export for the
last two decades has been natural gas, and natural gas
prices didn't quite do the same thing that sort of
oil prices did that kind of imploded the Venezuelan economy. Yeah,

(01:31:32):
and so through sort of like economic management and these
sort of political alliances, and you know, the high price
in natural gas, the Bolivian economy has sort of been fine. Unfortunately,
what's happening right now is that Bolivia is running out
of natural gas. And because it's running out of natural gas,
and also because their economy is an export based economy

(01:31:54):
based on natural gas.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Not so good, nusuge good vibes. Yeah, it's very bad.

Speaker 4 (01:31:58):
The entire economy is full, all your part because you
know this this is a very very classic kind of
economic crisis. You know, the econdoic crisis are having is
I'm not saying it described as a balance of payments crisis,
but that's what it is, which is that the Oblivion
economy works on buying things with American dollars. So you know,
like a lot of the businesses in the country involved
are sort of import businesses, right, you know, I mean

(01:32:21):
I know people who run businesses like this in Bolivia
where you know, you're inputting shoes or like motors, yeah,
stuff like that, and you buy them with American dollars
and you sell them in Bolivia. But the thing is
this requires a constant supply of American dollars to go
buy good manufacture goods from other places, because Bolivia's manufacturing
economy is effectively is a joke. And this is something

(01:32:41):
that was true of all of these economies. I mean,
Bolivia never they kind of tried to industrialize in the seventies,
but they never got as far along with it as
a country like Brazil or country like Venezuela did in
the seventies. And the other thing about these all these
sort of pink Tai governments is they all took power
in economies that have been completely deindustrialized man liberalism, right.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
We talked about this with Brazil.

Speaker 4 (01:33:02):
Brazil went from a country that was a kind of
like effectively a first not quite a first, right, but
maybe a second tier a large, a powerful second tier
industrial power to a country whose economy is almost entirely
based on sort of primary commodity production and farming bullshit.
So they've they've moved down that they've moved down the
value chain. They'vey're manufacturing less stuff, they're producing shit that's

(01:33:23):
on the bottom. They're getting less value from the value
added bullshit moving up the chain. And this is this
is also the problem with the beliving economy, and because
the natural gases is drying up, they don't have enough
dollars coming into the economy for people to use to
buy things. And the Bolivian currency is also pegged to
the dollar, right, so there's supposed to be an official

(01:33:43):
exchange rate at which you know, X amount of money
is worth x amount of dollars, and that's all falling apart.
People are sort of running around in the streets trying
to find people who will exchange like their currency for dollars.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
This is this is you know. So so this is
a classic short of balance of payments.

Speaker 4 (01:34:02):
Yeah, well it's kind of because it's kind of kind
of a balancing, but they're having a giant dollar shortage.
This is really really messing up. No, I mean not
just the economy, but the entire political system is really
kind of coming apart under this. Now, okay, I I
talked about things kind of coming apart there. There there

(01:34:22):
is another thing that is coming apart in Bolivia, which
is the m AS is shattering. Yes, the shattering, it's
it's it's splintering in two. So what is the m
A S So the m AS is this part? Oh okay,
so it has a slightly weirder history, which is that
so the m a S was a completely random actually
kind of kind of right wing political party, but importantly

(01:34:47):
it hads electoral status, so it was it was it's
a party that was taken over by the social movements
at the end of the sort of stuff stuff we're
going to get to in order to be able to
run like you need in order to be able to
run candidates for office.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
But this means that because again because it was literally
it was an existing.

Speaker 4 (01:35:04):
Legal, registered party that was taken over from the outside,
and because of how it emerged, it's always been seen
as sort of a movement party, right It's supposed to
be like the assembly of Oblivia sort of left.

Speaker 3 (01:35:15):
Wing social movements. And these left wing social.

Speaker 4 (01:35:18):
Movements are the movements that i emerge in quite the
right word, but are the movements that solidified it began
to sort of exert their power from two thousand and
two thousand and six in this enormous sequence of social
uprising against sort of Bolivia neoliberalism.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
The most famous of these are the.

Speaker 4 (01:35:34):
Water and gas wars, which are these fights against water
privatization and the sort of gas line and this alliance
of peasant unions, the traditional sort of urban urban sort
of proletariat like traditional sort of like urban left.

Speaker 3 (01:35:51):
These these new.

Speaker 4 (01:35:52):
Street movements, coca growers unions, miners unions, and a whole
array of indigenous groups that we frankly do you don't
have time to get into here because the politics are
extremely the philosophy is extremely complicate. I don't know if
I've talked about this on the show before, but one
of the I mean, we're talking about like like they
have like philosophical constructs that I don't understand. It's this

(01:36:13):
philosophical construct that's like a dialectic, but there's three parts
of it, and they don't it doesn't resolve. They just
all kind of grind intension with each other. Right, So like, Okay,
we're not really going to get into that. It's outside
the scope of the show of If you're more interested
in this, read Rhythms of the PATCHACOUTI or get a doctorate.

Speaker 3 (01:36:32):
I guess, yeah, yeah, we returned to grad school. Your
options are limited.

Speaker 4 (01:36:39):
But you know, there's this coalition of of all of
the kinds of unions, these rural unions or urban unions,
urban street movements, real street movements, gather together, gather their strength,
set up a million roadblocks, and just smash the neoliberal right.

Speaker 3 (01:36:55):
They are. The oblivious right is basically completely destroyed from
the period of two thousand and six until twenty nineteen.
That was the first time they ever took power. They
did it in a coup and they held power for
about one year before they were kicked out of power again.
So they basically completely reshaped all of politics in Bolivia.

(01:37:20):
Those the second round of roadblocks very nearly destroyed the
Bolivian state until as I sort of allatedd to earlier.
Even More, Alles pulled his supporters out the barricade in
order to get an election in two thousand and six,
and this is the election of the MS one.

Speaker 4 (01:37:33):
And to understand the kind of seismic change of this right,
the MAAS is the first party in the history of
Bolivia to win a majority of the season the parliament
by itself first party ever. It completely destroyed the existing
sort of political system. And again this was supposed to
be a sort of a sort of new kind of
party right. The theory of the MAS is the organization

(01:37:53):
of the social movements. Former vice president and sometimes Marxist
Garcia Leneria described it as quote, there's a dialectical relationship
between the social movements and the party. Now this is
a lie. Or more precisely, if this is a dialectic,
it is not a Hegelian or Marxist dialectic, where the

(01:38:14):
sublation of two parts creates a concrete totality or a
whole that is neither of the things that all is
for it. This is a Maoist dialectic where two sides
face off each other with each other, and one of
them hits the other side of the help with a
hammer until it dies.

Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
It's just a conflict. It's just there are two three
people and they both want to control the thing.

Speaker 4 (01:38:33):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
That's what ends up happening. Right.

Speaker 4 (01:38:39):
So, the social movements and the indigenous movements in particular
have been fracturing for a decade. You know, there are
a whole series of large fights, even even in sort
of like the early twenty tens over sort of of
the NIS doing these infrastructure things that everyone else in
the country was like, why are you building a road
to indigenous land.

Speaker 3 (01:38:58):
There's huge fights, many such cases.

Speaker 4 (01:39:01):
Yeah, so you know, this is the kind of hollowing
out in the kind of conflict that had led to
the social movements being completely unable to overturn the coup
in twenty nineteen, and it taking them until the end
of twenty twenty to really pull their shit together.

Speaker 3 (01:39:16):
And you know, overturn the.

Speaker 4 (01:39:18):
Coup and you know, you know what else overturns coups.

Speaker 3 (01:39:26):
That's a that's a f promits is it arming the
working class?

Speaker 4 (01:39:30):
It is the working class we are sponsored by yeah,
or in the entire working class.

Speaker 3 (01:39:47):
We're back. So okay, So now we get to the
present spling the social movements.

Speaker 4 (01:39:53):
What has happened now is that you know, are say
and and even Morale had always kind of gotten along usually,
but once you know, our say took power, he instead
of he didn't want to sort of just be a
proxy for even Morales. He had his own sort of
actually like not great agenda either, a sort of more

(01:40:16):
technocratic agenda. Although you know, you have to sort of
ask Evil, like you're the one who brought these people
into the party, Like, I don't know what you were expecting.
You brought these people in that they weren't going to
governed as a sort of center left technocratic capitalist government.
You know, you could have seen this coming, but they
they have been increasingly fighting, and the two sides are

(01:40:36):
now implacably hostile. They are saying evil, fucking hate each other.
And this, this divide has split every single social movement
in Bolivia, from the Landless Workers' Movement to the cocoa growers,
to the indigenous federations, to the fucking urban trade unions
to the miners unions. Every one of these organizations either
has officially split into two factions as one's in Evil
faction and ones in our save faction, or they are

(01:40:58):
in the middle of the fight where you know, they're
they're they're both sides are still fighting for control over
over you know, their union federation. And this is not
a clean left right split, which is this is actually
I mean, that was kind of what I was expecting
ish when this fight started, that I was sort of
expecting that this was going to end up as a
fight between sort of you know, the left of social

(01:41:18):
movements and the sort of center right base. But that's
not really what happens. It is kind of a left
right split, but you know, it's also a split over
the person of Evo himself. And because it partially a
split over Evo himself. There's a lot of like sort
of more left wing groups that are kind of are
kind of backing our say, because they don't want even

(01:41:39):
morallies to come back into power and re solidify his
control over all of these all the social movements, and
they're you know, angry at him for a whole series
of attempts to sort of co opt their movements. It's also,
you know, it's also it's also a split about sort
of how autonomous the social movement should be, should be
able to be from government policy. It's it's a it's

(01:42:00):
you know, it's kind of external to this. But one
of the other thing that's going on is that Evo
has been really unpopular with a lot of feminist groups
in Bolivia for a very long time for a lot
of reasons, including I mean, you know, one of the
big ones is Bolivia's horrific femicide crisis, which the MAAS
has been in power for almost twenty years and has
done jack shit to actually like deal with, right, you know,

(01:42:22):
So there's there are all of these sort of fractures
breaking out. Partially also it's a war between for control
of the MAAS, between the Coca goers unions and the
miners unions. So this is a shit show. It is
a complete fiasca. And then you know the thing that
makes it more with fiasco is, you know, we talked
about this sort of with uh we We did an episode

(01:42:42):
about kind of what's been happening with with the sort
of pink tied governments a while back, and you know,
one of the things you talked about in that episode
was Ecuador, where Ecuador has this left wing base that
should win every single election until the end of time,
and they don't because they're constantly fighting each other. And
this is effectively the beginning of hopefully it doesn't turn
into that. But I mean the m a s if

(01:43:04):
it is, if it is even sort of united, is
in unprecedented Bolivian political juggernaut. It should win every election,
like I mean, not till the end of time. They
probably probably should only win I don't know that they
have had demographic issues right now.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
Yeah, but you know they should.

Speaker 4 (01:43:18):
Still be winning effectively every every election and they're not.
And the reason that they're not is because of this
ship or a lousion. They might not is because of
because of all of these all all of these splits
and these are very these this isn't a These are
very very serious political splits. I mean, uh, one of
the miners workers meetings, very famously, the two sides broke

(01:43:40):
into into fist fights. I think one hundred and forty
people were injured. So you know, this is this is
these are these are very serious fights. There's also a
whole disaster right now over who actually is the candidate
of the m a s Because Evo held this Congress
of the m as it was his supporters that Arse
was not at and they said that because he didn't,
because r didn't show up, he was kicked out of

(01:44:00):
the party.

Speaker 3 (01:44:03):
Classic, So this is this whole thing. So few typically
been expelled.

Speaker 4 (01:44:07):
But like the courts got the electoral courts are now
involved because the electoral courts have to decide what like,
you know that they have to figure out what candidate
their party's running. So it's this, it's it's a complete catastrophe.
And in the midst of this complete catastrophe there is

(01:44:28):
the worst coup of the twenty first century. So let
a lot of let's get into finally this coup. So
this coup is run by a guy named Juan Jose
Zunjega is the He's the commander of the Bolivian Army.
He is hand picked by Arsay to run the army,
to be the guy who yes is yeah, and this
is you know this this this has sort of shades

(01:44:50):
of the fact that Pinochet was sort of elevated by
by Allende and the Social Democrats, but reminds me of
Franco as well, like getting prom about this, Yeah, this
was this, those were tragedy.

Speaker 3 (01:45:04):
This is farce.

Speaker 4 (01:45:06):
So what happens is that on Tuesday of last week,
Niega goes on TV and says, I am going to
like Louis evil morallies cannot be allowed to take power again.
I will stop him from taking power.

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
And our say is like, dude, what the fuck?

Speaker 4 (01:45:27):
Just immediately fires him, because you know you can't do that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:32):
Yes, Like almost every every country with a codified constitution
has prohibitions on its military intervening and its politics, right,
like yeah, the basics of democracy.

Speaker 4 (01:45:45):
Bolivia has had a series of military governments and military
cups across this twentieth century, including the the god the
fucking Cocaine coup that I've talked about at length in
our world of the Communist League episod that ends with
like Klaus Barbie fucking running around, right, So I mean,
you know, like this is a country that has had

(01:46:08):
military q is quite literally staffed by actual Nazis, right,
so you know, this is this is a place that
take that takes the threat of a military queue very
very seriously. There hasn't been one, blessedly in a long time,
but there's a lot of people who are fucking alive
for the last one. And you know, and so this
this is you know, people are extremely unhappy, even people

(01:46:30):
who I think in theory would be okay with, you know,
the government being deposed, like absolutely, under no circumstances want
the fucking military running in the country because again, everyone
fucking remembers how bad that shit was.

Speaker 3 (01:46:42):
But what appears duff.

Speaker 4 (01:46:43):
Happened is that Zaninka realizes that so he's just been fired, right,
which means that he has a very short time window
in which he could try to pull some shit, Which
means that whatever whenever he may have been planning, I
don't know what his actual plans were. He may have
been actually planning a coup, he may not have been
until here was just immediately like, well, I guess we
have to do it now.

Speaker 3 (01:47:03):
If it was planning, it wasn't planning very well, because yeah, yeah,
what results from this for this very I think results
on this very short timetable is the worst cup I've
ever seen.

Speaker 4 (01:47:13):
So what appears to have happened is that on Wednesday
he gathers the troops that he's able to gather, which
is not that I mean we're talking like a hundred guys.

Speaker 3 (01:47:22):
Maybe it was.

Speaker 4 (01:47:23):
Not a you know, they they had a decent number
of armored vehicles, but it was not like a lot
of troops.

Speaker 3 (01:47:30):
It does not appay that he even had the support
of a lot of troops, right.

Speaker 4 (01:47:33):
Like, yeah, a lot of the army seitster have kind
of been sitting there going what the fuck is going on?
But it was you know, I mean I was watching
the videos who were like the livestreams from journalism on
the ground of these troops and they're just they're just
worth it, many of them.

Speaker 3 (01:47:48):
No, they really were, Like it was the whole thing
was just really fucking shocking, like chockingly bad. They didn't
even surround the building, they just went up to one door.

Speaker 4 (01:47:59):
Yeah, so it's so what happens is they use in
our vehicle to ram the door of the presidential palace,
and they try to take control of it. But the
thing is right are saying, is it in the presidential palace?
He and his cabinet are in the next building over.

Speaker 6 (01:48:16):
So they taken the wrong building, going great, and again
this this is not a sort of you know, this
is not a coup.

Speaker 4 (01:48:25):
That follows the standard coup repertoire of I seize the president,
sees the radio station, sees the airport, sees the trains, right, yeah,
and have been tray control over the military barrackses, which
is your short this is your sort of basic five
step plan to how to do a coup.

Speaker 3 (01:48:39):
They will be doing that episode soon by the way. Yeah, yeah,
given today's to find we're in the we're in the
clear plan to do a coup.

Speaker 4 (01:48:49):
But you know, so they don't they don't even see
a part one, so they're they're kind of just kind
of milling around the front of the Presidential Palace and
try to get into the next building where the president
actually is. So it's also the demands are also very weird.
So Nika claims that he's not overthrowing the governments. He

(01:49:10):
claims that he's still loyal to our say, but he's
going to form a new cabinet.

Speaker 3 (01:49:15):
Oh yeah, he's useful. Yeah, that's how you normally do that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:49:21):
So he's like yelling about the economic crisis, says he's
going to quote restored democracy and quote release political prisoners.

Speaker 3 (01:49:29):
Which I kind of get.

Speaker 4 (01:49:31):
Okay, So the political prisoner's thing, I think is about
the people who've been arrested for doing the twenty nineteen coup.

Speaker 3 (01:49:36):
I have no idea what restored democracy means. I don't
know if he had any idea what he meant by
restored democracy. Something was happening.

Speaker 4 (01:49:43):
But the thing is the other thing about this coup
is that he has no backing at all. I mean,
he doesn't even have back in the army, but he
has no he doesn't even have backing among the right.
Both Macho Camacho and Jeanina one Aye are people who
did like the last one. Both condemned the coup. So
people he is trying to break out of prison it
condemned the coup. Right, This is going nowhere.

Speaker 3 (01:50:05):
Worst coup I've ever seen.

Speaker 4 (01:50:07):
So meanwhile, or say it is cabinet are in the
next building over appointing a new commander of the army,
so that the new commander of the army can go
outside and order them order the troops to go back
to their barracks.

Speaker 3 (01:50:21):
This is kind of what's happening.

Speaker 4 (01:50:22):
But also meanwhile outside so that these troops have like
taken over the square in front of the presidential Palace,
and that they have sort of successfully managed to take
over the square with a bunch of sort of military police.

Speaker 3 (01:50:34):
And riot gear.

Speaker 4 (01:50:34):
But there's this sort of crowd who's come to yell
at the army, right, and it's just very weird spectacle
because it's there's all these soldiers to all have long guns, right,
being protected by a light of cops with riot shields. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:50:46):
Yeah, like if you open up on the crowd, like
have enough numbers to get every every single one of
you is going to be individually executed. Yeah, So they're
all people don't have guns and.

Speaker 4 (01:51:02):
Unless that you know, and when I say execute, I
mean like they're they're gonna get executed by the goverment.
That that's assuming they live long enough and are not
just beaten to death by the crowd, which is also
a real possibility. But you know, so this crowd is
sort of approaching a lot of riot police. You're getting
tear gas a bit. But this is and I kind
of emphasize this enough, this is not a kind of
normal like highly organized Bolivian mass protest where you know,

(01:51:25):
all of the union, the Union's college general.

Speaker 3 (01:51:27):
Strike in the middle of this.

Speaker 4 (01:51:28):
Yeah, but again, this this whole thing lasts maybe two
and a half hours, so there's not time to do
the actual kind of sort of roadblocks and stuff like that.
There's not time to actually do the organization that you
would need to do.

Speaker 3 (01:51:41):
Overturn this coup.

Speaker 4 (01:51:42):
This coup falls apart so fast that people don't have
time to make protest signs only have our flags. They
do not have time to write signs out. That is
that they don't have time to cope with chance. I
was watching the funniest part about this whole thing, So
I was watching a live stream of the pro testers,
and the protesters had gotten this kind of I guess

(01:52:03):
you call it sort of this kind of metal gate.
I guess it was this big sort of it almost
looked like you know how there's you get this those
white shelves that have like metal bars, and it was
kind of like that like cross hashed.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
It was you know, it was pretty big.

Speaker 4 (01:52:15):
I was like bigger than a person, and like three
people are like carrying in front of them, like going
to the police lane, presumably to use it as a
battering ram. But the troops run away so fast that
these guys couldn't get their gate up to the police
line fast enough to use it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:32):
That's how you know it's going. Well, it was staggering.
It was amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:52:37):
So, you know, the entire coup calls apart. Zuniga gets
arrested on Life TV. It's like giving a press conference
and they just like arrest them.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
Amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:52:48):
But at the end of this, as it's falling apart,
the one genuinely masterful stroke that Zunjinga pulls in this
entire I mean it missed a just a cavalcade of failure.
One actual genius line that he does is as as
he started being arrested, he says it's in prison too.

Speaker 3 (01:53:05):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:53:05):
He claims that he's been ordered by Arsay to do
this in order to bolst ar Say's poll numbers, which
are dog shit.

Speaker 3 (01:53:12):
It's fake.

Speaker 4 (01:53:13):
Yeah yeah, now, okay, this this whole scheme begs the question,
what was Arsay supposed to get out of this, sorry
not again, Why what what what is? What does he
get out of it? Right?

Speaker 3 (01:53:25):
Because she's just going to prison.

Speaker 4 (01:53:28):
It's like, why would he do it if it was
just under orders from the president because this is a
lose lose for him, so none of it makes any sense.

Speaker 3 (01:53:37):
But comma, this is.

Speaker 4 (01:53:39):
Immediately picked up by morele I supporters. You fucking hate
r say, and they all immediately begin sort of repeating us.
And now this has become sort of the official line.
I mean, even Morales. He's been on TV and on
social media just saying, yeah, this was this was a
fake coup. This was a coup that Arsey did against
himself to help his poll numbers, and this is you know,

(01:54:02):
this is a This has turned into a real thing.
And there's a lot of people who are sort of like,
I don't know, the whole coup was really weird, right,
And there's a lot of people who believe this because
they're you know, I mean, either because they want to
believe it, or because you know, I mean it does
look weird, or because they fucking just hate our say

(01:54:23):
from the beginning, right, this is all you know, as
funny as it's sort of is this has had a
sort of catastrophic effect on sort of just like regular
oblivion people, because people are fucking terrified. You know, they're
terrified that this is the beginning of the army coming
back into politics. They're terrified that someone else is going
to do a coup. I mean even more. Elis has

(01:54:44):
been saying for a very long time. Actually both of
them have been trading accusations that the other one is
going to do a cup against them.

Speaker 3 (01:54:52):
Yeah, they've been banging the coup drum for a little while.

Speaker 4 (01:54:55):
Yeah, everyone, everyone has sort of been claiming that there's
going to be cups happening. And all of this is
creating this sort of cauldron of things that are extremely
bad for the Bolivian left. The economic boom that wildered
their coalition together is over. It's not clear anyone can
bring it back, because again, this is a this is
a natural gas based thing, right. And the other problem

(01:55:17):
that they have is, you know, the problem that all
social democracies have, which is that they've created a middle
class base of small business owners and people with middle
class salaries and professional jobs. And we talked about this
in the Brazilian context, and this is something that Garcia
le Nara has talked about too, which is that, well,
he doesn't say it in these words because he's a
coward and a capitalist, but social democracy produces its own

(01:55:39):
grave diggers by creating a middle class that despises them
and then eventually destroys everything the social Democrats thought to create.
And that this is very possible that what we are
in right now is the opening stages of this entire
political project coming apart. Yeah, I fucking hope it doesn't,
and I hope that you know, but again, like, the only,

(01:56:02):
the only actual way to resolve the inherent sort of
political and social contradictions of attempting to have a sort
of left wing socialist political base and a capitalist government
is to eliminate the capitalist state. Yeah, So either either
you do that or you get another one of these
shitty fucking cues.

Speaker 3 (01:56:18):
Yeah, you're just constantly vulnerable to this ship, right, like
at any point, Yeah, yeah, you're creating the conditions which a.

Speaker 4 (01:56:23):
Wealthy and I mean, and we've we've we've already seen
the coup that's capable of knocking them out of power,
right it's the cup that actually has sort of a mass,
like a mass backing from the right.

Speaker 3 (01:56:32):
And this was not that cue. This was this was
this was the comedian's coup. This was the joker coup,
This was the this is the worst coup. Yeah, but
you know, the next one, the next one might not
be yes, and that's quite serious.

Speaker 1 (01:56:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:56:51):
So until then, hopefully, hopefully we don't reach there. But
until this has been naked happened here. Yeah, you two
can overturn a coup by yelling, not even particularly menacing,
at a bunch your troops.

Speaker 3 (01:57:06):
Yeah, practice practice at home in case you ever need
to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:13):
Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week
from now until the heat death of the Universe.

Speaker 5 (01:57:18):
It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at
coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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