It Could Happen Here Weekly 44

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you
can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to it

(00:28):
could happen here. I'm your host today. It's Sharine Um
and I'm going to be flying solo for the next
few episodes. We're going to be talking about Syria. Spoiler alert.
I am Syrian and I think there's a lot of
history and news about Syria that really goes under the
radar and not a lot of people know about. So

(00:51):
I thought it would be important to shed some light
about how Syria became ruled by a dictatorship. Family. Um,
the Assad family have destroyed Syria. Imagine a country being
run by the mafia. They're very powerful, very secretive, very

(01:17):
very rich. There are no numbers that can illustrate the
scale of Syria's loss and destruction. Literally, because the United
Nations hasn't been able to calculate the death toll for years. So,
as I mentioned, these episodes are going to be about Syria.
The first two will be about how hop Is said
rose to power, which has since led the Assad family

(01:40):
to have control over Syria for more than half a century.
And then the one following that will be about his
son Basha, who is the current dictator of Syria, and
that one will have more topical information, maybe more like
economic stuff versus historical information, which we're going to start with.
But I think understanding the history of the Syrian government

(02:00):
provides vital context to understanding the present. And there is
a lot to cover here and a lot that I
won't be able to get to, but hopefully we can
chip away at it. And this is a good semi
coherent summary of how hof has climbed his way to
the very top of Syrian authority. So the Assads in Arabic,

(02:21):
it's as said, So apologize if I go back and
forth between those two. But they're from Kardaja, originally a
village in northwest Syria in the Syrial coastal mountains. The
family name said goes back to seven when Nili Sulayman,
who was Hafs father, changed his last name to which

(02:42):
is Arabic for the Lion. People say this is possibly
in connection to his social standing as a local mediator
and his political activities. All members of the extended Assad
family stem from Ali sulai Men and his second wife, Nissa.
The Assads are Shia Muslims, more specifically, of the Allohite sect.

(03:02):
Allo Whites are a religious minority, and they initially opposed
a United Syrian state because they thought their status as
a religious minority would endanger them and Half as his father,
he shared this belief. After the French left Syria in
ninety six, many Syrians mistrusted the Allo Whites because of
their alignment with France. Half Has eventually left his Allo

(03:23):
White village. Beginning his education at age nine in Latakia,
which had a Sunni majority, he became the first of
his family to attend high school, and while he was
an education he lived in a poor, predominantly Allo White
part of Attackia. To fit in, he approached political parties

(03:43):
that welcomed Allo Whites. These parties, which also embraced secularism,
worthy Syrian Communist Party, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the
s s MP and the Arab Bath Party. Bath is
biath in Arabic, but we know it as both spell
be a apostrophe a t h in English, and he

(04:03):
joined this political party in ninety six. Some of his
friends belonged to the s s NP and the Bath
Party embraced a pan Arabist socialist ideology, and he proved
to be an asset to the party. He organized Bath
students seals, and he carried out the party's message to
poor sections of Attakia and two Alloway villages. He was

(04:25):
opposed by the Muslim Brotherhood, which at the time allied
itself with wealthy and conservative Muslim families. Asad's high school
accommodated students from rich and poor families, and he was
joined by poor, anti establishment Sunny Muslim youth from the
Bath Party and confrontations with students from wealthy Brotherhood families.

(04:45):
He made many Sunny friends and some of whom later
became his political allies. While he was still a teenager,
Asad became increasingly prominent in the party as an organizer
and a recruiter, and he was the head of his
school's student affairs committee from to one and he was
also the president of the Union of Syrian Students. During
his political activism in school, he met many men who

(05:08):
would later serve him when he became president. And reading
about this, I mean, I'll be honest, and I learned
a lot even preparing for these episodes. It's so interesting
because you read about this man and on the surface,
he seems not too bad when he started out, Like
his ideas aren't terrible. I think power eventually corrupts everybody,

(05:28):
and I just have so many questions and thoughts about
how someone becomes evil. I mean, that's such a blanket,
like maybe like make believe way to describe someone. But
the things that the Sad family eventually does is horrific.
And it's interesting to see where this man started as

(05:50):
a child as a teenager. On one hand, it humanizes him.
On the other hand, it just shows how much he
had changed um and maybe he was always this way
and it's just on paper doesn't seem so bad. I
don't know, Sorry, Tangent, Let's continue. So after he graduated
from high school, as Sad aspired to be a medical doctor,

(06:12):
but his father could not pay for his studies, so instead,
in nineteen fifty he decided to join the Syrian armed forces.
He entered the military Academy in Plumps and the Flying
school in Aleppo, and then he graduated ninety five, after
which he was commissioned a lieutenant of the Syrian Air Force.
He married Anissa Mahluf in nineteen fifty seven, who is

(06:33):
a distant relative of the powerful Mahlouf family. In ninety five,
the Syria military split in a revolt against then President
Adeb and Ski, which led Hashim to take power as president.
He had been president before, and Syria was again under
civilian rule. So after ninety five a Tassi who in

(06:55):
English both him and as shask A removed in front
of their names, so you'll see just Atasi or so
when I say those that's what I mean. It's just
it's hard to break away when this is like the
language in your head sometimes. But I gotta stop with
these tangents. See this is my first cetle episode, and um,

(07:17):
this is what you get. But after hold on the
country was increasingly shaky. As a result of the election,
was replaced by Shukri Kwatli, who was president before Syria's
independence from France. The Bath Party grew closer to the
Communist Party at this time, but not because of shared ideology,

(07:40):
but rather a shared opposition to the West. At the
military academy, Assad met Mustafa Plas, which will be his
future Minister of Defense. Assad was then sent to Egypt
for a further six months of training, and when Jamal
Agda Nasid, president of Egypt nash analized the Suez Canal

(08:01):
in fifty six, Syria feared retaliation from the United Kingdom
and Assad flew in an air defense mission. He was
among the Syrian pilots who flew to Cairo to show
Syria's commitment to Egypt. In fifty seven, as squadron commander,
he was sent to the Soviet Union for training and
flying m i G seventeens, which I looked up and

(08:24):
it's a high subsonic fighter aircraft that was produced by
the Soviet Union from fifty two onward and operated by
air forces internationally. The more you know, but essentially he
went to the Soviet Union to train and flying these
things for ten months. Let's go back to fifty eight. Nope,
we're not going back, We're going forward. In Syria and

(08:46):
Egypt formed the United Arab Republic, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran,
and Pakistan and Turkey. In Syria and Egypt formed the
United Arab Republic you a R, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan,
and Turkey, and these countries were aligned with the United Kingdom.

(09:08):
This pact led to the rejection of communist influence in
favor of Egyptian control over Syria. All Syrian political parties,
including the Bath Party, were dissolved and senior officers, especially
those who had supported the Communists, were dismissed from the
Syrian armed forces. Assad however, remained in the army and
quickly rose through the ranks. After reaching the rank of captain,

(09:30):
he was transferred to Egypt, continuing to the military education
with the future President of Egypt, Hosta Ni Mubadak. However,
Assad was not content with a professional military career. He
viewed it merely as a gateway to a career in
politics a k A power. After the creation of the
u a R, the Bath Party experienced a crisis for
which several of its members, mostly young members, blamed the

(09:53):
party leader, who at the time was Michel A Flock.
He was a Syrian philosopher and sociology just In an
Arab nationalist, and his ideas played a significant role in
the development of Batheism and its political movement. He's considered
by several both fists to be the principal founder of
both Fist thought. So. He had some opposition, however, because

(10:19):
after the creation of the a R there was some
unrest to resurrect the Syrian national branch of the party,
Assad joined others in establishing the Military Committee in fifty
seven and fifty eight. Assad rose to a dominant position
in the Military Committee, which mitigated his transfer to Egypt.
After Syria left the EU a R in September of
sixty one, Assad other Bothist officers were removed from the

(10:42):
military by the new government in Damascus, and he was
given a minor clerical position at the Ministry of Transport.
Asad played a minor role in the failed nineteen sixty
two military coup, for which he was jailed in Lebanon
and then later repatriated. That year, Michel A Flock, the
Bath Party leader, convened the fifth National Congress of the

(11:03):
Bath Party, where he was reelected as the Secretary General
of the National Command, and then he ordered the re
establishment of the party's Syrian regional branch. There there's a
lot of congresses, there's a lot of branches, there's a
lot of committees. Uh. It gets really confusing, just these
men shutting down and then re igniting these things. So

(11:25):
bear with me here. At this congress, the Military Committee
established contacts with a Fluk and the civilian leadership. The
committee requested permission to cease power by force, and a
Fleck agreed to this conspiracy. After the success of the
Iraqi coup led by the Bath Party's Iraqi regional branch,
the Military Committee hastily convened to launch their own Bathist

(11:48):
military coup in March of nineteen sixty three against President
Nasim el Lets, which Assad helped plan. He helped plan
this coup. During this coup, he led a small group
to capture the Dumayette Air Base, about twenty five miles
north of Damascus. Assad's group was the only one that
encountered resistance. Some planes at the base were ordered to

(12:11):
bomb the conspirators, and because of this, Assad hurried to
reach the base before dawn because the sevente armored brigades
surrender took longer than anticipated. However, Assad arrived there in
broad daylight. When Assad threatened the base commander with shelling,
the commander negotiated a surrender. Later, Assad claimed that the

(12:31):
base could have easily withstood his forces, so his bluff worked,
and this garnered him a lot of respect. Not long
after Assad's election to the regional command, the military Committee
ordered him to strengthen the committee's position in the military establishment.
In doing so, Assad may have received the most important
job of all, because his primary goal was to end

(12:54):
factionalism in the Syrian military and make it a Bath monopoly.
He said he had to create a ideological army to
help with this task. He recruited Zeki Arsuzi, who was
the person who actually indirectly inspired him to join the
Bath party in the first place. When he was young.
Arsuzi accompanied us said on tours of military camps, where

(13:17):
Arsuzi lectured the soldiers on Bathist thought and gratitude for
his work, Asad gave Arsuzi a government pension, and Assad
continued his bathification of the military by appointing loyal officers
to keep positions and ensuring that the political education of
the troops was not neglected. He demonstrated his skill as

(13:37):
a logistical leader during this period, and he was said
to have a highly intelligent mastery of detail, which garnered
him a lot of respect. And I want to make
this clear. I talked to my mom a bit about
this and doing this research, and has said was very smart.
He was known as a very smart man. He knew
what he was doing at every turn, despite what seems

(14:00):
like it's like he this fell into his lap or like, uh,
later you'll see that the president he he overthrew, had
no idea he had didn't see him as a threat.
But but I mean before and after he took power,
he was known to be very cunning. And so yeah,
I just think that's an important little um being to

(14:24):
take note of. Even in school, they were saying that
he was an excellent student. So he has a plan,
I think for most of this. But let's take a
little break and we'll be right back to finish this up.
Well this part, I mean, okay, whatever, I'm sorry, we're back. Wow. Okay. So,

(14:44):
after he had been bathifying the military, he was promoted
to major and then to lieutenant colonel, and by the
end of nineteen sixty four, he was in charge of
the Syrian Air Force as the Air Force Commander Assad
gave privileges to Air Force officer, and he appointed his
confidence to senior and sensitive positions, and he established an

(15:04):
efficient intelligence network. Air Force intelligence, under the command of
Muhammad al Huli, became independent of Syria's other intelligence organizations
and received assignments beyond Air Force jurisdiction. Assad prepared himself
for an active role in the power struggles that were
soon to come. As I said, he's cunning, he knows

(15:24):
what he's doing in the aftermath of the nineteen sixty
three coup. At the first Regional Congress, Assad was elected
to the Syrian Regional Command, the highest decision making body
in the Syrian regional branch. It's so confusing, I can't
keep track. And while this was not a leadership role,
it was Assad's first appearance in national politics, which is

(15:46):
a significant thing to point out because, as you'll see,
it only grows. During the nineteen sixty four Hamma riot,
Assad voted to suppress the uprising violently if needed. This
decision to suppress the Hamma Raya led to conflict within
the military Committee, which I'm going to skip over because
it's a more clusterfucky than ever. But ultimately in sixty

(16:08):
five the eighth National Congress. During this Assad was elected
to the National Command, the party's highest decision making body.
I know, I just said that about something else, but
that was about the Syrian Regional Branch. There are a
lot of parties and commands and branches and committees. As
I said, just know that it's a group of men
probably that just make decisions. But he was elected to

(16:28):
this highest making body, this this party of people, and
it said that asad abhorred a fluck, the party leader
of the Bathist Party, Assad considered a fluck, a autocrat
and a rightist, accusing him of ditching the party by
ordering the dissolution of the Syrian Regional Branch. In fifty eight,

(16:48):
in response to the eminent coup that was about to
happen that Assad knew was going to happen, he left
for London. In the nineteen sixty six Syrian coup, the
Military Committee overthrew the National Command. The coup led to
a permanent split in the bath movement and the advent
of neo Bathism, as well as the establishment of two

(17:09):
centers of the International Bathist Movement, one Iraqi and the
other Syrian dominated. After the coup, Assad was appointed Minister
of Defense. This was his first cabinet post, but despite
his title, he actually had little power in the government
and took more orders than he gave. Salafaded, who helped
Assad established the Military Committee years prior, was the undisputed

(17:32):
leader at the time, and he opted to remain in
the office of Assistant Regional Secretary of the Syrian Regional
Command instead of taking executive office, which had historically been
held by sunnies Jaded, trying to establish his authority, focused
on civilian issues and gave Assad de facto control of
a Syrian military, considering him no threat at all. During

(17:56):
the failed coup of late nineteen sixty six, Salim Hathum
tried to overthrow Jadid's government. Hathum was a military officer
and he felt snubbed when he was not appointed to
the Regional Command after the sixty six coup, and he
sought revenge and the return to power of Hammoud and Shuffi,
who was the first regional secretary of the Regional Command.

(18:18):
After the Syrian regional Branches re establishment is sixty three.
Oh my god, so many branches and everything. I'm just
team just design on one group. Anyway, when Jaded, they
see in the regional command member Jama, visited the city
of Sueeda, the forces loyal to Hatum surrounded the city

(18:38):
and they captured them. The city's Drews leaders forbade the
murder of their guests and demanded the hat Um wait.
So Jaded and the others were placed under house arrest,
with Hatoum planning to kill them at his first opportunity
because he wanted revenge. When word of the mutiny spread
to the Ministry of Defense a Assad, Assad ordered the

(19:01):
seventieth Armored Brigade to the city of Sueida. By this time, Hatum,
who was a Drew's, knew that a Sad would order
the bombardment of Sueida, which was a Druis dominated city,
if Hatum did not accept Assad's demands. So this led
to Hattum and his supporters to flee to Jordan's eventually,
where they were given asylum. But due to his prompt

(19:24):
action and his protection of Jadid and the other members
that were captured, a Sad earned Jadid's gratitude after this incident.
So I know, I just casually mentioned this word a
minute ago, and so just to the people that aren't
aware of what it means. No, again, a lot more
to delve into than what I'm just going to say

(19:46):
right now. But Drew's are members of an Arabic speaking
ethno religious group originate in Western Asia there largely in
Lebanon and Syria now and they originally developed out of
Shia Islam. Even though most Drewis members are most Drews
rather do not identify as Muslim. They practiced their own

(20:06):
religion that is called Drusism. I've been trying to say
that word for a long time. Daniel cut out me,
saying in a bunch of times, um, I apologize that
I probably mispronounced it, But the point is they practiced
their own sect of religion that originated from the Shia
Islamic sect way back when. But at this point they're

(20:30):
their own religious group. So moving on that, I just
wanted to shed light on that word in case people
didn't know. Back to Syria. So, after this incident took
place and after Assad basically came to the rescue, Jadid
had a lot of gratitude for him, and continuing in
the aftermath of the sixty six coup attempt, Assad and

(20:53):
Jadeed purge the party's military organization ASAD removed and estimated
a four hundred officers, and this was Syria's largest military
purge to date. But the purges which began when the
Both Party took power in sixty three had left the
military week and as a result, when the Six Day
War broke out, Syria had no chance of victory. I

(21:17):
feel like this is maybe a good place to say
goodbye for the day. I thought it would be more
digestible if these episodes were shorter instead of being an
epic tale that could run over an hour. But yeah,
let's say goodbye. This is Sharene, this is it could
happen here? Here you tomorrow, talk to you tomorrow. Why

(21:39):
do I have this job? Okay, goodbye? Wow, we're back. Um,

(22:00):
this is Sharine and this is it can happen. That's
all I'm in the name of podcast. This is it
could happen here. I'm so sorry. Um. But last episode, Um,
we talked about Syria and the history of how happsite
said eventually came into power and how he subsequently let
his family become dictators of this country for over half

(22:23):
a century and how they've destroyed it. But we are
still in the sixties right now, So let's just continue
from where we left off. UH. Last time, I had
just ended mentioning the Sixth Day War, UH, and how
Syria was defeated in the Sixth Day War. This is
a topic that should be episodes all on its own,

(22:44):
but just very very roughly summarize the Sixth Day War
as it's called. It's also called the nineties sixty seven
war and the June War. It's interesting because Israeli's call
it the sixth Day War, and that's become the term
that everyone uses, but differing terms for differing people, I suppose.

(23:04):
But essentially, on June five, nineteen sixty seven, just three
weeks after it marked the nineteenth anniversary of its founding,
Israel went to war with the armies of Egypt, Syria
and Jordan's and defeated them essentially, very very rough summary.
And this led to Israel capturing a k a, stealing

(23:26):
the goal and heights from Syria. And the roots of
this war go all the way back to the forties,
and there are moment in history that led up to
this moment, but it was a huge turning point in
Middle Eastern history and the consequences of it are still
felt today across the region. And the outcome of this

(23:47):
war basically altered the map of the Middle East for
the foreseeable future, and it's further blocked this path to
any kind of potential piece between Israel and Palestine. Uh,
and it just redrew the landscape of this conflict and
expanded Israel's territorial claims and military dominance in the region. Um.

(24:10):
They gained a lot of territory during this war and
had the help of the U N behind them, So yeah,
it's it was not good for Arab countries so much
more to get into their But this war, essentially, when
we're talking about his Syrian history, changed everything. And I

(24:32):
mentioned earlier in the last episode that when the Bath
Party took power in sixty three, there was some more
pershing of the Syrian military and Assad removed about four
hundred officers, which was the largest purge to date. But
this had left their military week and obviously did not
help them in this June war. But uh, yeah, there's

(24:57):
so much more there. I will try to get into that,
lady or another time. But the Arab defeat in this
June war um led to Israel stealing the goal in
heights from Syria, and this provoked a furious quarrel among
Syria's leadership. The civilian leadership blamed military incompetence, and the
military responded by criticizing the civilian leadership, which was led

(25:20):
by Salashadid, who was the person that was ruling the country.
He had the most power. At this point, several high
ranking party members demanded that haf Said resign and an
attempt was made to vote him out of the regional command.
This motion was defeated by one vote, and this man
was Karim Gendi, who the anti Assad members. They were

(25:42):
hoping that he would succeed Assad as Defense minister, but
he became the deciding vote, and he said he did
so in a comradely gesture. Remember this name. He will
come back. But yes, j D made it so Assad
wasn't voted out. During the end of the war, Hafuz

(26:05):
was approached by dissident Syrian military officers who out the government,
but at the time he actually refused because he believed
a coup during that time would have helped Israel, not Syria,
which is very interesting because he eventually took power by
a coup, but he refused our first because of the
timing being wrong. Again, I think this just demonstrates his

(26:28):
unfortunately high intelligence for someone so bad. Anyway, as I mentioned,
this war was a turning point, and it was also
a turning point for as said, and the Boss Syria
movement in general. It soon began a power struggle with
Jadid for control over the country. Until then, Asad hadn't

(26:49):
really shown ambition for high office, and he aroused little
suspicion in others, no one really saw him as a threat.
From the nineteen three Syrian coup to the war in
sixty seven, Assad did not play a leading role in politics,
and he was usually overshadowed by his contemporaries. Patrick Seal

(27:09):
was a British journalist and an author who specialized in
the Middle East, and he wrote several books about the
Assad family and Syria. And he said the Hafs was
apparently content to be a solid member of the team
without the aspiration to become number one. He also interviewed
haf Is at one point, so he had a lot
of good information this Patrick Seal, which I'll mentioned throughout.

(27:34):
So although Jadid was slow to see Assad's threat, and
although Assad didn't appear like he wanted power from the outside.
Shortly after the war, Assad began developing a network in
the military and promoted friends and close relatives to high positions.
Assad believed that Syria's defeat in the June War was

(27:55):
Jadid's fault and that the accusations against himself were unjust.
By this time, Jadid had total control of the regional Command,
whose members supported his policies, but Asad and Jaded began
to differ on policy. Asad believed that Jadid's policy of
a people's war and armed guerrilla strategy and class struggle

(28:18):
had failed Syria, undermining its position. Although Jaded continued to
champion the concept of a people's war even after the
June War, Assad opposed it. He felt that the Palestinian
guerilla fighters had been given too much autonomy and their
raiding of Israel had made the war worse for the
Arab's fighting. Jaded also had broken diplomatic relations with countries

(28:41):
he deemed reactionary, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan's, and because
of this, Syria did not receive aid from other Arab countries.
While Jadid and his supporters prioritize socialism and the internal
revolution in quotes. Assad wanted the leadership to focus on
foreign polo see and the containment of Israel. The Bath

(29:02):
Party was divided over several issues, such as how the
government could best use Syria's limited resources, the ideal relationship
between the party and the people, the organization of the party,
and whether the class struggle should end. The conflict between
a Sad and Jadid became the talk of the army
and the party, with a quote duality of power noted

(29:24):
between them by the fourth Regional Congress and the tenth
National Congress in September and October sixty eight. Assad had
extended his grip on the army and Jadid still controlled
the party at both congresses, as Sad was outvoted on
most issues and his arguments were firmly rejected. The military's
involvement in party politics was unpopular with the rank and file.

(29:46):
As the gulf between Assad and Jadeed widened, the civilian
and military party bodies were forbidden to contact each other.
Despite this, Assad was winning the race to accumulate power
munif that is, as who was ousted in the nineteen
sixty six Syrian coup, noted that Jadid's fatal mistake was

(30:07):
to attempt to govern the army through the party, because
Syria will always have their government is the military essentially,
is what I'm trying to say. Anyway, while Assad had
taken control of the armed forces through his position as
Minister of Defense, Jaded still controlled the security and intelligence
sectors through Abdukadima gen D, who was the head of

(30:30):
the National Security Bureau Gen D, who was a paranoid
cruel man. He was feared throughout Syria, especially later in
his life. In February of nineteen sixty nine, the Sad
Jaded conflict erupted and violent clashes through their respective prodigies.
There wasn't a fact that said who is a Sad

(30:51):
brother and he was a high ranking military commander and
a Gen D. So agen D was the protege of
ja D and a Sad brother he thought was his protege.
So to say, the reason for the violence was, in fact,
said suspicion that Agendi was planning an attempt on his
brother Hapfus's life. The suspected assassin was interrogated and eventually

(31:16):
confessed under torture acting on this information. The fact argued
that unless agen D was removed from his post that
he and his brother were in danger. Okay, let's take
a break, B R B. Listen to this and we're back. Wow. Okay,
let's continue. From the twenty to February. In nineteen sixty nine,

(31:43):
the A SAD Brothers initiated quote something just short of
a coup. Under a SAD authority, tanks were moved into
Damascus and the staffs of two party newspapers, the Bath
and Athota, as well as radio station in Damascus and
Boat were replaced by A SAD loyalists the Takia and Tartus,

(32:04):
which are two alo white dominated cities. They saw fierce scuffles,
ending with the overthrow of Jade's supporters from local posts.
Shortly afterwards, a wave of arrests and Gen D loyalists began.
On March two, after a telephone argument with the head
of military intelligence, Al Duba, it is said that a

(32:25):
Gen D committed suicide. When I mentioned this to my mom,
she said, well, that's what they say, because originally I'm
reading this being like, okay, history obviously, I actually remember
that there's always someone that writes the history. Um, So
just pointing that out there because she put that little
nugget of information in my head. But as far as

(32:46):
we're concerned, in this summary, it is said that Jendi
committed suicide after his loyalists began to be arrested and
they were just continuing violence between his side, and said
so this led to a Sad now being in control. However,

(33:06):
he hesitated to push his advantage. Jaded continued to rule
Syria and the regional command was unchanged. However, a SAD
influenced Jaded to moderate his policies. Class struggle was muted,
criticism of reactionary tendencies of other Arab states ceased, Some
political prisoners were freed, A coalition of government was formed

(33:28):
where the Bath Party was in control, and the Eastern Front,
supported by an Assad, was formed with Iraq and Jordan's.
Jaded's isolationist policies were curtailed, and Syria re established diplomatic
relations with many of its foes, which is what a
SAD wanted. And while Assad had been in de facto

(33:48):
command of Syrian policies since nineteen sixty nine, Jaded and
his supporters still held the trappings of power. After attending
Jamad Obtnasair's funeral, in Egypt, he was the President of Egypt.
A Sad return to Syria for the emergency National Congress,
where a Sad was condemned by Jadid and his supporters,

(34:10):
who still made out the majority of the party's delegates. However,
before attending the congress, A Sad ordered his loyal troops
to surround the building housing the meeting. Again, this guy
thinks ahead, he's too smart. I hate him. He's dead
those or whatever, I still hate you. So, as he's
being criticized, and as he's being condemned, he has troops

(34:31):
surrounding this building. And so the criticism of a Sad's
political position continued, but it had a defeatist tone, with
the majority of delegates believing that they have lost the battle.
And even though a Sad was eventually stripped of his
government post at the congress, these acts had little practical significance.

(34:51):
When the National Congress ended on November twelfth, nineteen seventy,
A Sad ordered loyalists to arrest leading members of Jadeed's government.
Although many mid level officials were offered posts in Syrian
embassies and abroad, Jadid refused, saying if I ever take power,
you will be dragged through the streets until you die.

(35:12):
A Sad imprisoned Jaded in Medsday prison until his death.
Despite the intense clusterfuck of everything that preceded this surprise,
office's coup was actually calm and bloodless. When he eventually
had his coup to take power and succeeded, the only

(35:33):
evidence of change to the outside world was the disappearance
of newspapers, radio stations, and television stations. A temporary regional
command was soon established, and on November sixteenth of nineteen
seventy the new government published its first decree. So only
in a matter of days a lot can happen man.

(35:53):
According to Patrick Seal, a Sad's rule quote began with
an immediate considerable advantage. The gun from it he displaced
was so detested that any alternative came as a relief.
He first tried to establish national unity, which he felt
had been lost under the leadership of a flock and Jadid.
Assad differed from his predecessor at the outset, visiting local

(36:16):
villages and hearing citizen complaints. The Syrian people felt that
Assad's rise to power would maybe lead to change, and
although a Sad didn't democratize the country. He eased the
government's repressive policies at the time. He cut prices for
basic food stuffs fift which won him support from ordinary citizens.

(36:37):
Jadeed's security services were purged and some military criminal investigative
powers were transferred to the police. In the confiscation of
goods under Jadid was reversed. Restrictions on travel and trade
with Lebanon were eased, and Assad encouraged growth in the
private sector. While Assad supported most of Jadeed's policies to

(36:57):
begin with, he proved to be more pragmatic after he
came to power. Let's take a little break here, when
we right back to wrap this little history lesson up,
and then you're free of me for the day. Okay,
So we're back. Um. Before the break, we're talking about
as Sad coming into power, and how his policies differed

(37:20):
from Jadid's, and how he made an effort to differentiate himself. However,
most of Jade's supporters they faced a choice either continue
working for the bath government under a Sad or face repression.
Assad had made it clear previously from the beginning that
there would be no second chances. In his words, however,

(37:40):
in late nineteen seventy, he recruited support from the Bathist
Old Guard, who had supported a Flox leadership during the
nineteen sixty three ninety six power struggle. An estimated two
thousand former Baathists rejoined the party after hearing Asad's appeal
at the eleventh National Congress, A Sad assured party members

(38:00):
that his leadership with a radical change from that of Jadid,
and he would implement a quote corrective movement to return
Syria to the true nationalist socialist line. A Sad turned
the presidency, which had been known simply as quote head
of state under Jadid, into a position of power. During
his rule, as the president became the main source of

(38:21):
initiative in the government, His personality, values, strengths and weaknesses
became decisive for his direction and stability. A Sad institutionalized
a system where he had the final say, which weakened
the powers of the collegial institutions of the party and state,
as fidelity to the leader replaced ideological conviction. Later in

(38:43):
his presidency, corruption became widespread, the state sponsored cult of
personality became pervasive, and as Assad's authorities strengthened, he became
the sole symbol of the government. And it sounds normal now,
I guess when you think of like a dictator's face
being plastered over buildings and stuff. But it was very

(39:03):
much like that in Syria, and it still is as
far as the Shire is concerned. But with Hafez, I mean,
his image was plastered everywhere. You couldn't really escape it.
He was the symbol of the Syrian government. And while
Assad did not rule alone, he increasingly had the last word.
None of the political elite would question a decision of his,
and those who did were dismissed, removed from their positions,

(39:26):
and stripped of their power. When Assad came to power,
he increased the Allohite dominance of the security and intelligence
sectors to a near monopoly. The coercive framework was under
his control, weakening the state and party. The leading figures
of the Allo White dominated security system had family connections,
but the fact that I said, for example, controlled the
Struggle Company as his brother and then Asad's son in law,

(39:48):
Aidan Macluf was his second in command as commander of
the Presidential Guard. Asad controlled the military through the Allowhites,
and the Allowhites, with their high status, appointed and promoted
base on their kinship and favor rather than professional respect. Therefore,
an Allo White elite emerged from these policies with a
sad and full control of the military and the Allo

(40:11):
Whites holding all the power, which is very interesting if
you think back to the beginning of our first episode
where I mentioned that the Allo Whites are a religious
minority and originally didn't have a lot of power in
the government, and through half Assets coming into power, the
Allo Whites are suddenly elite and in control, and it's

(40:32):
a huge flip from what it was decades prior. However,
when Assade began pursuing a policy of economic liberalization, the
state bureaucracy began to use their positions for personal gain.
The state gave implementation rights to QUOTE much of its
development program to foreign firms and contractors, fueling a growing

(40:53):
linkage between the state and private capital. Basically, what ensued
was a huge bike in corruption. The channeling of external
money through the state to private enterprises. Quote created growing
opportunities for state elites self enrichment through corrupt manipulation of
state market interchanges. Besides outright embezzlement, webs of shared interests

(41:17):
in commissions and kickbacks grew between high officials, politicians, and
business interests. The Alla white military security establishment got the
greatest share of the money, obviously, and the bath Party
and its leader is ruled a new class, defending their
interests instead of those of the peasants and workers who
they were supposed to represent. This, coupled with growing Sunny

(41:41):
disillusionment with the regime's mixture of Sadism, rural and secretary
and favoritism, corruption and u inequalities, fueled the growth of
the Islamic movement. Because of this, the Muslim Brotherhood of
Syria became the vanguard of anti Bathist forces. The Brotherhood
had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its

(42:03):
introduction to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties
under the leadership of Mustafa A. Sabai. The Brotherhood had
historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction
to the Syrian political scene during the nineteen sixties. After
Sabai's imprisonment and under Isam and Althotas leadership, the Brotherhood

(42:23):
developed into the ideological antithesis of Bathist rule. Because of
their organizational capabilities, the Muslim Brotherhood grew tenfold from nine
to nineteen seventy eight. The Islamic Uprising began in the
mid to late nineteen seventies with attacks on prominent members
of the bath A Lawai elite. As the conflict worsened,

(42:45):
a debate began in the party between hardliners represented by
Rafa and bath liberals represented by Mahmoud and a Yubi.
The seventh Regional Congress in nineteen eighty was held in
an atmosphere of crisis. Party leadership, with the exception of
Assad and his proteges, were criticized severely by the party delegates,

(43:06):
who called for an anti corruption campaign, a new clean government,
curtailing the powers of a military security apparatus, and political liberalization.
The Sunni middle class and the radical left, believing that
Baptist rule could be overthrown with an uprising, began collaborating
with the Islamists. And I mean although they are called

(43:27):
the Islamists, obviously they do not represent the entirety of
Islam uh. Similar to Christian radical groups um hold onto
the name Christian, they don't represent the entirety of Christianity.
YadA YadA, YadA, bad badh blah. And although the word
Islam is in the word Islamists. I wanted to draw
attention to the fact that Islamism is not a form

(43:51):
of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety.
It is rather a political ideology that strives to derive
ttimacy from Islam. So it's about political strategies that believe
in a revival or a return to authentic and quotes
Islamic practice in its totality. So it's a political ideology,

(44:15):
not necessarily a religion. Um. I just want you guys
to be aware of that, because I think a lot
of people don't understand what that means. Regardless believing they
had the upper hand in the conflict. Beginning in nineteen eighty,
the Islamists began a series of campaigns against government installations
in Aleppo. The attacks became urban guerrilla warfare. The government

(44:37):
began to lose control in the city. Those affected by
Bathist repression began to rally behind the insurgents. The bath
Party co founder Salahadin supported the uprising, rallying the old
anti military Bathist together. The increasing threat to the government's
survival strengthened the herdliners, who favored repression over concessions. Security

(45:00):
forces began to purge all state party and social institutions
in Syria and were sent to the northern provinces to
quell the uprising. When this failed, hardliners began accusing the
United States of fomenting and provoking the uprising and called
for the reinstatement of quote revolutionary vigilance. After a failed
attempt on a Sad's life in June of nineteen eighty,

(45:23):
the government began responding to the uprising with state terrorism
under a fat said. The Islamic prisoners at the Tadmore
Prison were massacred. Membership in the Muslim Brotherhood became a
capital offense, and the government sent a death squad to
kill bad and others former wife. The military court began
condemning captured militants, which sometimes degenerated into indiscriminate killings. Little

(45:49):
care was taken to distinguish Muslim Brotherhood hardliners from their
passive supporters, and violence was met with violence. So essentially,
this just led the Asad regime too murder a bunch
of people, innocent, guilty all of the above. So yeah.

(46:09):
One of the many instances where the Assad regime was
extremely violent and engaged in horrific state terrorism. So we're
I'm wrapping up the end of this one, and um,
there's going to be a bit of crossover over this
next event in the following episode. But the final most
atrocious violence conducted by the Syrian government during this time

(46:30):
was the Hamma massacre, which took place in February, when
the government crushed the uprising. Helicopter, gunships, bulldozers, and artillery
bombardment raised the city, killing thousands of people. The bath
government withstood the uprising, and it made Syria more totalitarian
than ever before, strengthening Assad's position as the undisputed leader

(46:55):
of Syria. That is where I'm going to wrap up
for the day. I did want to I don't know,
maybe just like set the tone for what hoffs is
A rule was like. I talked to my mom a
bit about this when I was preparing to record these,
and she reminded me of a bunch of things that

(47:15):
I had forgotten about. One was that I was in
Syria when Hoffas was president when I was younger, and
I remember everyone being terrified to speak any kind of
negative thing or even anything to each other. No one
would dare speak a word on the phone definitely not

(47:35):
allowed to each other. There were all these whispers of
the walls could hear you. No one trusted anybody. My
mother described it as a culture of fear, and it
was that's how Hoffus ruled. It was through fear, through
like utter terror. And I just had forgotten a bunch
of details about what I remember growing up, and like

(47:56):
the phone being this, like you just assume it was
always app you assume anyone could always hear you. You
can't trust anybody because you don't know what someone will
do with the information. And there was a bit more
that she mentioned that I wanted to just highlight that
I didn't know where to incorporate in that timeline. But
when the Iran Iraq war happened, it was between eight

(48:18):
and eight um Haffas sided with Iran. So after this
uh and during everything was about supporting Iran, So all
Syrian factories, all the food, it was all dedicated to
war efforts to support Iran. My older sister at the
time was a really picky eater, and apparently one of
the only things she ate were bananas, and my mom

(48:40):
remembers that she couldn't find even a banana anywhere, like
everything was hard to come by. It was really desperate
times even after the war ended, and every election, in
quotes was fraudulent. It was a joke. My grandmother Um
worked as a school teacher in Syria. You and um,

(49:01):
teachers are a civic position there really, like most positions
are governmental positions. And my grandma during these elections would
throw out the nose and only include the yes is
because the only option was yes or no if he
wanted to continuef as his rule or not, those are
the only two options. And she told us that the

(49:24):
nose were discarded immediately and the only ones that were
kept were the yesses. And eventually there was an election
that determined that Haffas and his family would be in
power forever and as it was a phrase that used,
and essentially this means until death or forever, you will
be in power. It does have his name in their

(49:45):
but it implies his whole family. So it's just they
gave him power forever. That is literally what that means.
And yeah, I think, um, there's so much more to
talk about here, and I would love for my mom
to just give me more information about this that I
can share eventually. There's just so much. And this episode
is already getting kind of long, so I'm gonna wrap

(50:08):
it up here. In the next episode, we'll be talking
about but Shad and how he became the dictator of
Syria and how he was even meant to be the
president of Syria, and yeah, a lot of interesting history
that leads to some topical information that I think is important.
So see you there if you want to. But wow,

(50:45):
it's me again. Uh, this is Sharia. This is also
it could happen here. We've been talking about Syria for
the last few episodes and we're going to continue and
I'm just gonna jump right in because there's a lot Okay,
So this is a continuation about Syria and the terrible
family that controls it, the assets. As I mentioned in

(51:08):
the previous episodes, Uh, the Assads have destroyed Syria and
the death toll that they are responsible for is literally
incalculable by the UN but it's said to be nearing
half a million people, which is a lot of people. So.
Sam Dagger is an American Lebanese journalist and author who
has lived and worked in the Middle East for more

(51:29):
than sixteen years. He was based in Damascus in the
early years of the current war before the government kicked
him out in but he used his access to write
about the inside story of the Sad family. He has
a book titled A sad Or We Burned the Country,
which I admittedly have not read. It's like five hundre pages,
but I did pull a lot of info from the

(51:50):
book and interviews that he's done about it, mostly in
regards to the economic stuff that we'll get into later,
but it was very helpful resource. When Dagger was in Syria,
he saw this phrase A sad Or reburned the country,
which is the title of his book. All over the
towns and neighborhoods that had been taken over by the
regime graffiti it on walls, probably by loyalists or government

(52:12):
militias or whatever, or as people that love him barf.
And in this case they're talking about the shadow I said,
who is the son of the person we were talking
about previously said, but it essentially also includes the entire family.
They are in power forever, and the Asad regime routinely
takes over deserted, destroyed areas, and these government militias come

(52:36):
in and loot the area until it's nothing but rubble
littered by things that are left behind as people are fleeing,
and things that these loyalists find useless, like teddy bears
and personal items that actually tell a really devastating story
about the lives that used to occupy that space. Because
these loyalists, these sad obsessed freaks, they take everything that

(53:00):
they deem worth looting, even things like tiles and doors,
So you're left with these ghost towns. Literally figuratively, the
phrase is sad or reburned the country means exactly what
it says. It means that the Shadow and his family
will remain in power or else they will burn the
country to the ground and burn everyone who opposes the

(53:21):
Assad regime along with it. And although the shadowst has
now been in power for twenty two years, he was
actually never meant to be in power. His father had
appointed himself as president in ninety one after overthrowing the
prior government through military coup. The Shadow s has succeeded
his father in two thousand after his father's death, and

(53:42):
it continued their famili's hold on Syria and his people.
Was a very significant year. Not only was it the
year I was born and that's why, but Also, the
Soviet Union collapsed and the Berlin Wall fell and dictatorships
were crumbling. The Soviet Union was seen as the main
supporter or guardian of the Sad regime, but in it

(54:04):
didn't exist anymore. So the a Sad regime was suddenly
in trouble. Its priority was to present an image of
reform and repackaged itself so half as Said, could hand
down the power to his eldest son, Bassett said Um
and Bassett was an army officer who was essentially brought
up to eventually fill this role taking over for his father,

(54:24):
and his military background fit the image of this traditional
leader of the Arab world because so many of these
leaders took over by military coup or had a background
of military. But before we get into all of that,
let's go back in time a little bit and talk
about what went down. So a sort of succession crisis
was triggered in November three when haf Said, a diabetic,

(54:47):
had a heart attack on November after visiting his brother
in a hospital. The fact that Said reportedly announced his
candidacy for president, he did not believe that his brother
would be able to continue ruling the country after to this,
when he did not receive support from Assad's inner circle.
He made lavish promises to win them over, but apparently

(55:07):
some believe that a Fact had been as first choice
of successor, and it was an idea that some people
say he broached as early as nineteen eighty. The fact
that I said was the younger brother of Haffaz and
he served as vice president. Many believe him to be
the commanding officer responsible for the Hamma massacre of two um.
I briefly mentioned this in the previous episode at the end.

(55:30):
It was a horrific massacre, and I think it especially
is near to me because Hamma is my mother's hometown
and it's probably my favorite place in the world. They
have these water wheels that are like, I don't know,
they've mesmerized me. But that's another story entirely. We can
be all sappy at another time. But I did want
to break up this massacre because most people have no

(55:52):
idea that it even happened. In February two as commander
of the defense companies that in fact allegedly commanded the
forces that put down a Muslim brotherhood revolt in the
central city of Hamma by instructing his forces to shell
the city with rockets, and this killed thousands of its inhabitants.
Reports range from between five thousand and forty thousand, but

(56:15):
the most common suggestion is around fifteen to twenty thousand,
still a ship ton of people, and this became known
as the Hamma Massacre. A declassified document from the Defense
Intelligence Agency estimates the total number of casualties to be
approximately two thousand. However, US journalist Thomas Friedman claims in

(56:37):
his book From Beyroute to Jerusalem that I Fat later
said the total number of victims was thirty eight thousand people.
Thirty eight thousand people. The fact also played a key
role in his brother Hoppus's overthrow of saw Shadid and
the seizure of power. This change in executive power is

(56:58):
dug by some loyalists. At the Corrective Revolution, the Fat
was allowed to form his own paramilitary group, the Defense Companies,
in nine and this soon transformed into a powerful and
regular military force, trained and armed by the Soviet Union.
He was a qualified paratrooper and he ran the elite
internal security Forces and the Defense Companies in the seventies

(57:21):
and early eighties, but things changed when Haffas severed a
heart attack in late eighty three. As he was recovering,
Haffa's established a six member committee to run the country,
but a fact was not included. The council consisted entirely
of close Sunni Muslim loyalists to Haffa's, who were mostly
lightweights in the military security establishment. This caused unease in

(57:44):
that that we dominated officer corps, and several high ranking
officers began rallying behind your Fat while others remained loyal
to Haffice's instructions. In March of eighty four, Fat's troops,
now numbering more than fifty five thousand, with tanks and artillery,
ary aircraft and helicopters, they began a certain control over Damascus.

(58:05):
A squadron of Defrats tanks took position at the central
roundabout of Cafu Souse in Mount Glassioun, overlooking the city,
setting up checkpoints and roadblocks, putting up posters of him
in state buildings, disarming regular troops, and arbitrarily arresting soldiers
of the regular army, Occupying and commandeering police stations and

(58:25):
intelligence building. Occupying state buildings, the defense companies rapidly outnumbered
and took control over both the Special Forces and the
Republican Guard. Although Damascus was divided between two armies and
seemed to be on the brink of war, the Fact
did not move. Papus was then informed that de Fact
was heading to Damascus, and he left his headquarters to

(58:46):
meet his brother. British journalist Patrick Seal reports an intimate
moment between these two brothers. He writes, at a Fact's
home and the brothers were at last face to face.
You want to overthrow the regime, Hafas asked, here I am,
I am the regime. For an hour they stormed at
each other, but in his role of elder brother and

(59:07):
with his mother in the house, Hafas could not fail
to win the contest, Deferring to him at last, as
he had so often during their youths. The Fact chose
to accept, although with some inward skepticism, halfics Is pledged
that the trust between them would be restored and would
be the basis of their future work together. There was
a clear division and tensions between forces loyal to Haffa's,

(59:31):
namely the Third Armored Division, the Republican Guard, the various
intelligence services, the National Police and the Special forces. The
defense companies were so loyal to defact. In the middle
of eighty four, Haffas had returned from his sick bed
and assumed full control, at which point most officers rallied
around him. At first, it seemed like the Fact was

(59:52):
going to be put on trial. He even faced a
questioning that was broadcast on television. However, it is believed
the Hoffice's daughter Bushta, actually saved her uncle by convincing
her father that it would disgrace the family it might
cost tensions not only within the Assad family, but within
the Mahlu family as well. Both Haffas and Nafat had

(01:00:12):
married women from the Mahu family, and they also just
happened to be the second most prevalent Dilo white family
dominating the leadership of the security services behind the Assads,
and what first seemed like a compromise, the Fact was
made vice president with responsibility for security affairs, but this
proved to be simply a fancy title, and post command

(01:00:33):
of the defense companies was trimmed down to an armored
division size and was transferred to another officer, and the
entire unit was ultimately disbanded and absorbed into other units.
The Fat was then sent to the Soviet Union in
an open ending working visit. His closest supporters and others
who had failed to prove their loyalty to Haffa's were

(01:00:53):
purged from the army and bath Party in the years
that followed. Upon his departure, de Fat acquired three d
million dollars of public money, including a hundred million Libyan money,
on a loan in two thousand fifteen. He claimed that
the money was a gift from Crown Prince Albila Saudi Arabia,
and although the fact returned to Syria for his mother's

(01:01:15):
funeral in nine two and for some time lived in Syria,
he was thereafter confined to exile in France and Spain.
He nominally retained the post of Vice President until February
of night, at which point he was stripped of this title.
He had retained a large business empire both in Syria
and abroad, partly through the Sun sum However, the nine Crackdown,

(01:01:39):
involving armed clashes in the Takia, destroyed much of his
remaining network. In Syria, large numbers of the Fat supporters
were arrested. This was seen as tied to the issue
of succession, with our Fat having begun to position himself
to succeed the ailing Cofaz, who in his turn sought
to eliminate all potential competition for his designating successor, his

(01:02:01):
son Bashad. As in France, the Fat who is still alive,
has loudly protested against the succession of Bashad to the
post of president, claiming that he himself embodies the only
constitutional legality as previous vice president, alleging his dismissal as unconstitutional.
He has made threatening remarks about planning to return to

(01:02:23):
Syria at a time of his choosing to assume his
responsibilities and fulfill the will of the people, and that
while he will rule benevolently and democratically, he will do
so with the power of the people and the army
behind him. Anyway, de fats coup attempt to weaken the
institutionalized power structure on which Hafez based his rule. Instead

(01:02:43):
of changing his policy, a sad try to protect his
power by honing his governmental model. He then gave a
larger role to Bassid, his oldest son, who was subsequently
rumored to be his father's plan successor at the time,
and this kindled jealousy within the government at a nineteen
ninety four military meeting, the chief of staff said that
since Assad wanted to normalize relations with Israel, the Syrian

(01:03:06):
military had to withdraw its troops from the Goal and Heights.
Ali Haidad replied angrily, we have become nonentities. We were
not even consulted. When he heard about his outburst, a
Sad replaced him as commander of special Forces with the
Ala White Major General Ali Habib had that also reportedly
opposed dynastic succession, keeping his views secret until after Bassil's

(01:03:29):
death in ninety four, and when a Sad chose but
shadow said to succeed him, he then openly criticized as
sad succession plans. Okay, before we go back to let's
take a quick break b rb Okay, so back to nine.
The regime had done everything in preparation for bast Sale
to take power. However, on January one, while Bastard was

(01:03:54):
driving his Mercedes at a high speed, and author Paul
Thorou reports that basket the way, driving a hundred and
fifty miles per hour. He was driving through dense fog
to Damascus International Airport for a flight to Frankfurt, Germany.
He was on his way to a ski vacation in
the Alps in the early hours of the morning, and
it was then the Bassett collided with a barrier and

(01:04:17):
not wearing a seatbelt, he died instantly. After his tragic death,
the regime made sure to elevate the assad name. In
the process, shops, schools and public offices and Syria closed
and the sale of alcohol was suspended. In respect, he
was elevated by the state into the martyr of the country,
the martyr of the nation and the symbol for its youth.

(01:04:38):
A great number of squares and streets were named after him,
the new international swimming complex, various hospitals, sporting clubs, and
a military academy. The international airport in the tack Yet
was named after him Basset Lead International Airport. His statue
was found in several Syrian cities, and even after his death,
he's often pictured on billboards with his father and his brother.

(01:05:01):
He also has an equestrian statute in Aleppo. Even in
November of twenty a museum dedicated to him was no
gy rated at the Attackia Sports City. Bassas untimely death
obviously had unforeseen consequences. It led to his lesser known
brother Bashad to assume the mantle of president in waiting.
At the time, he was content undertaking post graduate training

(01:05:24):
and ophthalmology in London. Bashad was seen as the shy,
unassuming younger brother, and for his whole life up to
this point he was overshadowed by his father and its
older brother Bassett. But then suddenly he was fast tracked
on the path to succession. He was rushed to the
military and the constitution changed so that the minimum age

(01:05:45):
required of the president was not forty but thirty four,
exactly Bashadow's age at the time. But Shadow became president
following the death of his father, who died on June
tenth of two thousand. Bast sales posters and his name
were also used to secure a smooth transition. After half
said introduced the slogan Bastend the example, Bashad the Future.

(01:06:07):
His quote unquote election was a yes or no referendum,
a popular vote on whether the Syrian people wanted him
as their president, and so surprised he won with at
least of the vote. So after the vote, Bashad is
sworn in and he's presented to his people as the savior,
as the one who's going to open up Syria and
reform the system. Dr Basha, a son referred to him,

(01:06:30):
was seen as the leader of the younger generation of Syria,
the standard bearer of modernization. But the regime was and
stayed very cynical and was not at all sincere about
these reforms. However, Bashad performed his role and acted the part,
cracking down on corruption, reaching out to all sectors of
Syrian society. Back in two thousands, some people were even

(01:06:51):
calling this the Damascus Spring, and the Syrian people were
seeing things change, unaware that, as sam Docker puts it,
that Bashad is being mentored and tutored by people who
have been empowered by his father to kill, torture, and
disappear people because they had dared to speak out against
the regime. These hard liners were grooming him and telling him, yes,

(01:07:14):
you can present yourself as a softer version of your father,
but no, then order to hang on to power, you
have to be as ruthless as your father, if not more.
Western governments had the impression that Bashad was someone they
could do business with. He presented a modern, open minded
image and even hosted notable positions from around the world
in Damascus. Including Brad Pitt and Angeley and Jolie. The

(01:07:36):
US and Europe accepted this perception because they believed that
it was in their best interest to do so, and
to ensure that this image of Syrian leadership was being
presented to the world. The regime was strategic having Bashad
show that he was different from his father, even in
the choice of who he married. In December of two
thousand a, Sad married Esma as a British citizen of

(01:07:58):
Syrian origin from a in London. She was much different
than serious previous first lady. She wasn't from the religious
sect that the Assads belonged to, the Allo Whites, who
are still a religious minority. She is actually of a
Sunni majority. Basha decided to marry someone who has lived
all her life abroad, as a British citizen, who was

(01:08:19):
modern and assertive and had a career in investment banking
and talked about going to Harvard for business school. She
was even featured in Vogue Come on barf. In an
interview in two thousand five, Esma said, quote, the issue
here is not how Muslim women decide to dress. The
issue is what Muslim women are doing in their society today,

(01:08:40):
it doesn't matter how we dress or what we look like.
So hearing this and other things, Western leaders are looking
at this modern educated couple, believing they are different and
more importantly, that they are more suitable to their interests.
In the post nine eleven era, the United States was
looking for allies in the so called War on Terror
and said, as Sam Dagger stated in an interview quote,

(01:09:03):
shared intelligence with the Americans and even tortured people on
behalf of the Americans. So the West had a vested
interest to justify its engagement and cooperation with Bashad by
saying he's a reformer. Opening up series economy was a
big part of projecting an image of a reformed Syria.
Before Basha took power, Serious economy was a centrally planned

(01:09:24):
economy also known as a command economy, which is an
economic system where a government body makes economic decisions based
on the production and distribution of goods. Serious economy was
in the mold of the Soviet Union's economy, but when
Basha took over, the economy began to change drastically. In
the early two thousand's, a t m s were seen

(01:09:44):
in Syria for the very first time and cell phone
companies were established, and while the economy may have opened up,
everything was still in control of the regime. I wanted
to bring up something that my mom mentioned about the
differences between Basha and Hafs and how they genuinely believed
he was going to bring modern change. He was doing
it all right on paper, but when Hoffas was in

(01:10:07):
power in the early eighties or my mom was talking
about her experience in the late eighties early nineties, apparently
there were at least three Secret Service stations that monitored
everyone in every neighborhood, three per neighborhood. And because my
mom was going back and forth from America to Syria
my father as well, they would send for my mom.

(01:10:29):
They would request that she go to the Secret Service,
and she was asked there about the Syrians. She knew
in the States, what they were doing, what they did,
who went to the mosque. She had to write everything
she did in detail. She did this every time she
visited Syria, and my father went through the same thing.
At one instant, she was saying that one time they

(01:10:49):
left her alone in her room for three hours. Because
they do this to purposely humiliate you. They make you
anxious to make you scared. And this was just something
of normal procedure that a lot of Syrians experienced, just
constant terror. As I mentioned, it's a culture of fear,
and this is one of the ways that they promoted that.

(01:11:12):
But after Bashar took power, this changed. These places were
taken down and it just genuinely looked like Bashad was
an improvement. He studied in the West to open up
the internet, because previously the internet was only allowed for news,
and it just seemed promising. And before we get into
anything further, let's take another break, b r B. We're back.

(01:11:37):
In Sam Dagger's book assad Or Reburned the Country, he
describes how tightly controlled this new Syrian economy is. He writes,
ten families run Syria and control everything. He continues to
describe how this early period in Bashar's rule also brought
the rise of another figures cousin. He is related to

(01:11:59):
the assad family through his mother, who was the sister
of Anissa mahluf Tops wife, so she's Bashar's aunt. Rabbi
Mahaluf's personal wealth accumulated abroad was estimated to be in
the excess of ten billion. In his father Mohammed Mahlouf
played the role of the regime's financier, basically haf as
his money man. As Bashad said, became President Mahluf's son

(01:12:23):
Rami inherited this business empire and became this new tycoon
in Syria. He was the person who made sure that
any economic opening would benefit and enrich the Astad family.
Before the Syrian Civil War started in early two thousand
and eleven, he was considered one of the wealthiest and
most powerful men in Syria and controlled nearly sixty of

(01:12:43):
the economy, including industries of real estate and telecommunication, aviation,
the dairy industry, tourism, electricity, and oil trading. According to
Syrian analysts, he is part of an inner circle and
no foreign company could do business in Syria at the
time without its scent and partnership. The last French ambassador
to Syria had lunch with Rommie Ones and described him

(01:13:06):
as acting as quote the king of Syria, puffing cigars
and saying I'm in control and everything happens through me.
Fast forward to our present day, the economy has completely
collapsed ever since the uprising started in early thousand eleven.
It could be seen as an accumulation of the past decade.
Syria's sanction hit economy had always relied on Lebanon to

(01:13:28):
sustain itself, but in the fall of twenty and nineteen,
Lebanon had its own crises, and it was an economic
and political turmoil which forced banks to control access to
cash and prevent transfers abroad. Dagger explains, Lebanon has always
served as this economic pressure valve, not only for the
regime but also for average Syrians. A lot of Syrians

(01:13:50):
had their savings, their life savings, and Lebanese banks. One
analyst told me that Syrians had one billion dollars in
deposits in Syria itself versus forty billion dollars of Ayrian
deposits in Lebanon. And then what happens in Lebanon. The
whole banking system crashes, There are protests in the streets
of Lebanon, that outlet that Syrians had shuts down, and
the situation becomes progressively worse than Syria. The value of

(01:14:14):
the Syrian lira had also extremely diminished and continues to
trying to recover from this plummet of the Syrian economy.
But Shadow turned to capitalists that he had empowered twenty
years prior, including his cousin Rabbi Mhlouf, but Shad asked
romy for two hundred and thirty million dollars, specifically in
back taxes. It was described essentially as being a shakedown.

(01:14:38):
The world saw this as a huge falling out between
Syria's richest man and its president, a dictator, but shadow
sent Other prominent businessmen, not just Ramy, were also targeted,
and they all quietly agreed to pay whatever the regime
was asking for. The economy was an in dire state
and the regime urgently needed cash, so the government asked

(01:14:59):
for myn from the businessmen and had empowered in the
first place, and most of them comply but not run.
In June, Mahluf stated that he would quote quit the
Syrian business scene. On May one, Mahaleuf made an unprecedented
public appeal to his cousin. He made this appeal on Facebook,

(01:15:20):
saying that officials were seeking to seize his assets as
he was pressured to hand over an excess of one
hundred and thirty billion. I think it's what all those
zeros mean. An excess of add thirty billion liras due
to tax evasion, Mahlouf, who was a part of the
Shadow Sets inner circle, said he would pay the president himself,

(01:15:41):
but not the state. Two days later, he posted another
video on Facebook where he mentioned that Syrian security forces
arrested some of his employees. He said, how could they
do this when I was their biggest supporter and their
biggest servant during the war. However, speculations indicate the Assyrian
First Lady Sma Assent had been responsible for this whole plot,

(01:16:03):
the reason being that quote to many businessmen loyal to
Esthima competed with Mahloof for control of diminishing resources after
collapse of the Syrian Pound, along with sanctions, made the
space in which they compete narrow and difficult. This is
according to Dr Mohan A. Hejudi, a researcher at the
Carnegie Middle East Center. In addition, the Syrian authorities might

(01:16:25):
have targeted Mahlouf in order to find resources prior to
the implementation of U S sanctions related to the Caesar Act.
On May seventy, Mahlouf posted another video on Facebook where
he mentioned rising pressure on him to handover profits or
he might be arrested. On May nineteenth, the Syrian government
seized all assets belonging to Mahlouf. On the twenty one,

(01:16:47):
a Syrian court placed a temporary travel banna Mahlouf. On June,
the Syrian government terminated duty free contracts in all ports
and border crossings with companies affiliated with Mahouf. This drama
between Bashad and Rommi resulted in talks of a rift
in the regime's inner circle, and people were concerned that
this would expose a rift in the Allo White community itself,

(01:17:09):
which had supplied the bulk of the fighting forces for
the regime. Because in these Facebook videos, Rammi wasn't only
appealing to his cousin, his patron with whom he built
a twenty year symbiotic relationship with. He was also appealing
to the average members of their religious sect, the Allo Whites,
most of whom are nowhere near the wealth of the

(01:17:29):
Assad family's inner circle. He was tongued Allowhites that we
had sacrificed everything for the regime and our sons were
killed in order for the regime to remain in power,
and instead of being rewarded for the fruits of this,
the regime was going after an important figure who has
been instrumental in supporting people through his business a k
a Rommi himself, and it wasn't necessarily untrue, but he

(01:17:51):
wasn't helping people for free obviously, and Johnny had expected
people to remain loyal to him despite all of this. Basically,
the Assad family had finished devouring the Syrian state and
its resources, and it had now started to devour each other.
As of of Syrians live in poverty and are unemployed.

(01:18:13):
There's unrelenting inflation, and basic goods have doubled or tripled
in price, rice, flour, sugar, coffee. Everything has become obscenely expensive.
There's hardly any meat, and gas is priced in American dollars,
which you can only imagine how high that goes. When
my family and I talks to our Familure members that

(01:18:34):
are still in Syria, we hear about the electricity being
out for days and weeks, and then the water being
out for the same amount of time, and the people
are essentially being suffocated by their own government. People are
questioned and tortured and kept in prisons for absolutely no reason,
and the only way they can get out is by

(01:18:54):
bribing the prisons thousands of dollars for no reason. It's
just about greed, it's about power, it's about terrible people.
These monsters just destroying this beautiful place. Syria is so beautiful,
and I just my heart breaks for the land and
for the people. So although the A Sad regime continues

(01:19:17):
to present itself as the ultimate and only power in Syria,
Bashad has actually been at his weakest point in the
last two years. He is only still in his position
because the Russians and Iranians want him to be there,
and he's only able to maintain his role by playing
off his two patrons against each other, Iran and Russia.

(01:19:38):
This is a regime that always derived its power from
the army and from the security forces, but the army
largely does not exist anymore. Yes, there are divisions that
are trained by the Russians in an attempt to put
this army back together, but even the loyalists who support
the Shadow said don't want to join the army anymore.
They would rather leave the country. So the regime's only

(01:19:59):
option left is to continue to rule by fear. This
has had mixed results, especially when you look at the
uprisings that have continued since. However much they have dissipated people,
put themselves on the streets, not hiding their identities, vocally
and loudly opposing the regime and demanding for the removal
of the shadow. At this behavior, as we've seen, it's

(01:20:21):
unacceptable by the regime and it's led to the regime
all but destroying its own country. Estimates of the total
number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War by opposition
activist groups vary between five hundred thousand people and six
hundred thousand people as of March. And I think it's
really notable that Syrians are vocally expressing their outrage and

(01:20:46):
there's just a history there of so much trauma. In
two thousand five, for example, my mother was telling me
that a list of demands, so like what's math six
years after the first uprisings occurred in twenty oven. In
two thousand five, a list of demands or corrections um
were written down the things that people wanted to fix

(01:21:07):
of the government, free press, free expression, they wanted to
make the government and democracy. And Bashad allowed them to
list their demands and what they wanted to fix and
handed over to him to look at. Essentially an Arabic
this is called eland mushk and it seemed like maybe
an open conversation could happen. But then everyone who signed

(01:21:30):
this petition was looked up, hunted down, sent to jail,
some for decades and some people that are still there,
and others fled the country after they started collecting people.
This Ellen de Musk was the beginning of the end.
It was the end of the few liberties that people
thought would come when took power. He named everyone who signed,

(01:21:53):
everyone who supported the newspeople to press as terrorists. And
I think in spite of that, six years later there
was still an uprising. It was an accumulated need to
fight back. And so going back to that saying that
a SAD loyalists spray paint on the cities, that SAD
has demolished a Sad or we burned the country, it

(01:22:15):
seems like both choices have come true. The shadows Set
has stayed in power, and he's also burned the country
to the ground. And the more he stays in power,
the worst life gets for Syrians. The country is destroyed,
families are shattered, and many many people have died. The
cost is insurmountable. But a lot of Syrians don't see

(01:22:35):
this fight as over their injustices and grievances remain the same,
even after experiencing indescribable horrors over the past twelve years.
Syrian people, like all people, they want dignity, they want justice,
and they can no longer accept living in this inhumane
system where your most basic rights as a human being

(01:22:57):
depend on your proximity to power. Anyway, this is Sharine.
Thank you for listening. I sincerely appreciate your time and
I'll see you. Welcome to it could happen here the

(01:23:25):
podcast about the world falling apart and how we can
put it back together again. I'm your host, Christopher Wong. Now.
Three months ago we covered Great Abbot's attempt to shut
down the border and how he was forced basically to
back down by a Mexican trucker strike. And in that
episode we mentioned that Abbot's newest stunt was deporting people
from Texas to Washington, d C. To make Biden look
bad by you know, moving the problem to him. And

(01:23:48):
as a political stunt, this has largely failed as a
humanitarian disaster, inflicting untold human misery on completely innocent people.
It is still continuing to unfold, and here today to
talk about this with US is Amy Fish with Sanctuary
d m V and the Migrant Solidarity Mutual Aid Network. Amy,
thank you for joining us and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me. So excited to

(01:24:09):
be here. Yeah, um, somewhat less excited that this is
happening because dear God. Yeah. So, I guess to start off,
do you want to tell us a bit about what's
been I guess how this started in what the sort
of initial reaction and non reaction of the d C
government has been. Sure so, Um, in April, Governor Abbott

(01:24:34):
started bussing people from the border to d C. Um.
We knew from the get go that this was a
racist publicity stunt, um, particularly because the first few busses
were dropped off right in front of the Fox News building. UM,
and we all initially thought it was going to be

(01:24:58):
a few weeks of bussing people. And here we are,
um in the middle of July, and the buses have
kept coming. Um. Buses arrive to d C basically every
single day of the week except for UM Monday evenings

(01:25:19):
and Tuesday mornings, and there have been probably around thirty
people bussed from Texas to d C. And uh not
too long after Governor Juicy of Arizona started doing the
same thing and bussing people from the Arizona border to

(01:25:41):
d C, and the d C government has basically been
unwilling to grapple with the reality of what's happening. You know,
people are arriving to d C with very very little resources,
typically like the clothes on their act. Sometimes they don't
even have shoes on their feet when they get off

(01:26:03):
the buses. And it's been, um, kind of amazing to
see the way that the DC community has responded. It's
been like the type of response that makes me remarkably
proud of being a DC resident and being from the area.
And also, um, it's something that the d C government

(01:26:26):
is turning in a blind eye to um and pretending like, um,
the reality that we are seeing when we are talking
to people that are getting off the buses day in
and day out, it's just it's like entirely different from
what you know, the DC mayor is saying about the situation. Yeah,

(01:26:48):
and I guess, well, okay, so before we talk, I
guess fully about the DC governments just catastrophic. I don't
even want to know if I want to say incompetence
so much is just like we'll just let these people suffer. UM,
Can we talk a bit about what what what the
community responses looked like and what y'all have been doing. Sure,

(01:27:08):
so maybe to back up a little bit to to
tell you about sort of like what the experiences of
the people that are getting off the buses. These are
people that are typically UM coming to the United States
to seek asylum. They're being processed at the border for
a few days, and I think what like have been
commonly started to be referred to as like the Pereiras

(01:27:32):
and Jeleras at the border, so like the dog cannels,
the ice boxes, and the at the border and that
are being paroled into the country. And um, so the
Customs and Border Protections CDP is releasing these folks to
UM like respite centers type of places at the border.

(01:27:53):
UM in Texas. Most of the folks are coming from
Del Rio and Eagle Path, UM. And then they're being
told that there's these free busses to d C. And
it's it's a little bit mind boggling because we know
that Governor Abbott is doing these bus this bussing purely

(01:28:14):
out of the most like racist xenophobic intentions. And also
for many of the folks, it's a free bus to
to get to where they're trying to go. And so
people are riding on the buses arriving in d C
and then you know, many of them are trying to

(01:28:37):
get to other places along the East coast UM and
many are planning on staying in d C UM. And
so what has happened is we've um developed a massive
mutual aid response, which has been super cool. So you know,

(01:28:58):
we have of a crew of volunteers that meet the
buses when they arrive UM at Union Station. And if
you're not familiar with d C, Union Station is sort
of the big transit center and in the middle of
d C UM actually relatively close to where the capital is. UM.

(01:29:18):
It's sort of like the DC equivalent of like Penn
Station in New York or something like that. UM. And
so they're dropped off in front of Union Station. We
have folks that will welcome them and UM typically we
bring to folks to uh different churches around the area
that have opened up their spaces as respite centers for us,

(01:29:40):
and we uh you know, sit down with folks, we
offer them some food and really try and talk through
what their needs are and help them as best as
we can meet those needs, whether it is you know,
folks may have UM medical or like trauma they need
to work through UM. Maybe they're trying to get to

(01:30:04):
New York, and so we'll help them, you know, communicate
with family members or help them find their way to
New York. We you know, for the folks that are
staying in d C, we've done our best to help them,
you know, find a way to kind of get settled
and put down roots in their new community, getting them
connected to community members that help them you know, navigate

(01:30:27):
DC to to them how to use the metro, help
them get to their you know, check in appointments as
they're you know having to jump through all of the
hoops of ice and being surveilled by the state, and
and helping them you know, have access to lawyers to
explain their legal process and really just kind of like

(01:30:47):
I don't know, I took a dude to to Target
to be to like help them get go shopping, and
you know, took folks to get uh, just like the
random stuff that people need when they arrive in a
new place in the same way that, Like, I don't know,
if I had a friend moving to d C, I
would be like, Hey, what do you need? Like how

(01:31:08):
can I help you get to know this place? Like
this is how our bike share program works, like just
the most basic welcome, get settled. Can we talk a
little bit more about what the sort of legal process
looks like here and what like, for example, like explain
what check ins are and yeah, so, UM, the folks

(01:31:29):
that are arriving are being paroled in UM and so
basically what it means is that they are then under
surveillance from the federal government UM from ICE, which is
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, And what that looks like is
a little bit of a crapshoot. UM. So many many

(01:31:53):
of the folks are UM at the border given cell
phones UM that have tracking on them, and so with
that cell phone, they're being tracked by the government. They
basically have to take like selfies ever so often to
UM check in and then they're basically being enrolled in
this program called i APP, which is the I can't

(01:32:16):
remember the acronym, it's it's a supervision program. And so
they have to go to an ICE office once they
arrive in whatever city that they're arriving to UM. Oftentimes
they're being asked to turn in the I the ICE
cell phones and having to download an app on their
cell phones. If they don't have a cell phone, they

(01:32:37):
might be given an ankle monitor or what many of
the Spanish speakers called like a great They be basically
like an ankle shackle UM for electronic monitoring. They'll have
UM officers you know, show up at their house, so
sometimes they have to you know, be at home from
seven am to seven pm so that you know, Immigration

(01:33:00):
and come come buy and make sure that they're like
still there. And basically that part of the program is
entirely so the government can keep a track of where
these folks are. It has nothing to do with like
the actual legal process that they are trying to go
through to to be able to stay here permanently. So

(01:33:21):
separate and apart from that, the vast majority of these
folks are asylum seekers. And so what that means is
that you know, once they're here, they have a year
to apply for asylum and then they're thrust into the
like totally broken asylum system that has you know, years
long backlogs and things like that, and so then they'll

(01:33:43):
be basically trying to find a way to um get
an asylum grant to be able to stay here permanently
while also navigating the surveillance that's happening on the ICE
side of things are so I know, something that happens
with like I guess regular prison a lot are people

(01:34:04):
being forced to pay for the ankle bracelets, which is
which is like from their minimum But yeahs, I mean,
I will say that we've one of the issues that
we have started, um sort of trying to figure out
how to navigate, is that what we're seeing is people,

(01:34:27):
you know, they get the ICE cell phones at the border,
and then at their check in they're supposed to turn
in the ICE cell phones and then download this at
this surveillance app on their phone. Um, many folks don't
have a cell phone or the app only works if
you have I think a five G phone, So you
basically have to have like the fanciest of the phones,

(01:34:49):
which if you're an asylum secret and you just risked
it all to come here to seek safety and you
don't really have a support in the US, and now
you're being told that you have to have this super
fancy phone or you get an inkle shackle. It's it's
just kind of a ridiculous thing knowing that it's okay,

(01:35:12):
maybe you're privileged enough to be able to be surveilled
on your own personal cell phone or you just have
to have an ankle shackle at all time. So much
of this process just like it really feels just like
it's it's just it's surveillance just sort of for the
purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the purpose of humiliation.
It's surveillance for the sake of some Um. This idea

(01:35:39):
that we've been dealing with in the US since September eleven,
that uh, immigration is a national security concern that you know,
if if immigrants aren't being surveilled twenty four hours it did,
then like lord knows what they could do. Um. When

(01:35:59):
the reality is is these are folks that are just
like normal people trying to live their best lives. UM.
And I also think how I think it's really important
to say how much of this is also entirely based
on government funding and availability That so oftentimes the decision

(01:36:22):
as to what kind of surveillance you're under is based
upon what is available, um, based on contracts with you know,
private surveillance companies and private prison companies that have a
surveillance arm and things like that. It's it's entirely profit driven. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Again,

(01:36:44):
I keep thinking about prisons. It's just like, yeah, I
mean literally literally the same companies doing this kind of
stuff and how Yeah, and like I think, I don't know,
there's there's this kind of like I mean, I guess
people it's just a prison industrial complex. But yeah, there's
this whole there's a sort of like state private sector
complex at both feed on each other where you have

(01:37:06):
these companies taking federal money to do stuff. You have
these companies who are like have figured out ways to
extract like money from the people that they're suvailing. And
I guess, okay, keep keeping on the thread of the
state making people's lives miserable. Um, yeah, so Muriel Bowser
not doing anything. Yeah, we're talking about that a bit.

(01:37:30):
So Mariel Bowser's messaging that we have received has evolved
a little bit here and there. So sometimes she says
that the majority of people that are getting off the
bus have everything they need and have families supporting them,
and so there actually is no reason for the government
to step forward because these people already have all of

(01:37:54):
their needs met, which I would say maybe one person
or one family ever every few days has someone that's
you know, ready to meet them when they step off
the bus, but the vast majority of people don't. And
I would say that we're seeing an ever increasing amount

(01:38:15):
of people that don't have anybody in the United States,
and so they really are in need of a lot
of supports to help them really figure out their way
here because they don't have cousins or family friends or
extended family, whatever it may be, to help them, you know,

(01:38:36):
put down roots in the in their new communities. UM.
And in recent weeks her messaging has shifted a little
bit because there is actually a Spain based organization that
got a grant from FEMA to support on the buses
UM and so now Bowser's response is this organization sad

(01:39:00):
know has it, It's covered. There's there's no like refuse.
One refusing to even acknowledge the fact that the Mutual
Aid Network has been and continues to do the vast
majority of the welcoming of the folks that are arriving,
and two once again refusing to acknowledge that there is

(01:39:23):
any role that DC could be or should be playing here. Yeah,
and it definitely it seems like I don't know. I mean,
it's it's a kind of classic like state two steps,
which like yeah, on the one hand is like okay,
there's no problem. The second thing is we found an

(01:39:44):
NGO we can sort of like pretend is doing the
actual work. UM. And I guess one of your things
that that I saw from y'all recently was a bunch
of people got exposed to COVID while doing this and
there was like basically, you guys did basically a work stoppage.

(01:40:05):
So last week, UM, we basically hit a wall. UM,
many of our core organizers had been exposed to COVID. UM,
we were running out of funds because this work is expensive. UM.

(01:40:27):
And we had been doing this as volunteers around the clock,
you know, twenty four hours a day, seventies a week
for months, and last week we kind of hit a wall.
And UM told this NGO that is receiving female funding

(01:40:48):
that UM we needed to take a beat, UM and
take two days where you know, folks kuld get COVID
tested and make sure they were clear to come back
to work and rest and also spend time like we
you know, call it a work stuffage, but we're all

(01:41:09):
still working. We were all you know, having conversations as
to how we make this work more sustainable, how we
find you know, systems of support to to make this
this welcome last. And unfortunately that resulted in people basically

(01:41:29):
getting stranded at Union Station. UM. And when our folks
were able to return to welcoming buses on UM you know,
later in the week, they ended up with like I
don't know, thirty additional people that had basically been sleeping
at Union Station because this other NGO that you know

(01:41:54):
is receiving federal funding to do the work that the
mayor is saying has it and they're for she doesn't
have to do anything, didn't show up. And and there
were a handful of good Samaritans that like you know,
would be at Union Station and see a bunch of
folks and they you know, spoke different languages and would
be able to support them kind of here and there.

(01:42:16):
But it really showed how um I think it really
proved the work that the futual Aid Network had been
holding and that you know, if we tried to take
a step back things things fall um and really showed
how much we need others to step in because the

(01:42:40):
work that we've been holding has is has been you know,
wearing us down and hiding the situation a little bit
right that people don't people you know, when we're able
to really show up and and provide the folks that
are arriving with the support that they need. What it

(01:43:02):
means is that the government isn't paying attention because it's
it's not their problem in that moment um. It means
that DC residents don't have to walk by asylum seekers
when they're trying to get to the Metro after work.
It means that, um, you know, the people are cared

(01:43:27):
for and and that's great, and it's work that we're
proud of it. It's work that we're doing well, um,
But it's also work that we need support doing, um
because it's it's a lot and the numbers have increased,
you know, and and we want to be able to

(01:43:49):
provide welcome. We want to be able to give the
folks what they need. But as long as we're sort
of living in this world where bus tickets are massively
expensive and food is expensive, and you know, we gotta
we gotta help clothes people and and help people meet

(01:44:10):
their needs. Then then we have to have support. And
that's just that's just the reality. Yeah, that's one of
the things that is really frustrating about this too, is
it's like it's not like the resources that you just
don't exist, Like it's not it's not even like the
state hasn't like attempted to put resources out, but it
just got fed into this NGO complex people who are
just doing nothing, and I don't know, like the the

(01:44:35):
way you get to see sort of both arms of
what the state does where it's like, okay, on the
one hand, you have the part of the state that's
just hitting people with clubs, that's just doing this stuff,
and you get the sort of political army of the
state who just like again are just literally shuffling people's
lives around as as you know, as political theater, and
the political theory doesn't matter because these people's lives don't

(01:44:55):
matter to the state or to anyone who has even
a tiny bit of power unless they you know, they're
it's visible enough that people are like the people have
to see it, and that people, you know, get annoyed
because oh, hey, look at this thing happening that's like
interfering with my life now, and you know, and then
it's like, Okay, they're supposed to be part of the
state that like tastes care of people, just isn't and

(01:45:16):
that's just incredibly frustrating. I don't know, it's I think
of a few things. So when we first started seeing
buses coming to d C, um, you know that people
are dropped off in front of Union Station and at

(01:45:38):
the time, there was an encampment of an housed people
um that you know, had their tents and stuff in
front of Union Station. And so folks would get off
the bus and say, you know, what are the tents,
Like who are these people living in tents? And so
be like welcome, welcome to the nation's capital of this
place that you just came to seek opportunity, to seek safety.

(01:46:01):
And you're immediately showing getting showed in in the most
you know, visible terms possible of the way that the
state is failing its own people because people in d
C don't have housing um and housing gear is immensely expensive.
And then um, I say in the early days because

(01:46:26):
uh in I think it was in May uh that
encampment was cleared um and so those people lost their
homes UM. And now it continues to be a struggle
that you know, if we are unable to provide housing

(01:46:46):
for the people that get off the bus, they are
going into the DC shelter system that is already overrun
because there is a housing crisis and TC and alarming
eviction crisis. And even for the folks that are arriving
here on the buses, if they don't have supports, they're

(01:47:11):
they're thrust into this situation in which the state is
preventing them from working. They don't have a way to
work legally for at least a few months, um, presumably
until you know, they can apply for a work permit,
presumably after they file for asylum. But these are folks

(01:47:35):
that don't have a way to work legally, that are
have that have zero support from the state. So how like,
tell me how somebody is supposed to live in the
United States? Feed themselves, feed them their feed their families, um,

(01:47:57):
have a roof over their head, survive, have a cell
phone for your surveillance app have the means to travel
an hour, you know, once every few weeks to check
in with ICE. If they're legally prevented from working. It's

(01:48:23):
just it's a total abandonment of people who need and
wholeheartedly deserve support. Yeah, and I think like it's it's honestly,
like honestly think it's it's worse than abandoned, right, Like
if they just like if these people were allowed to

(01:48:44):
come into the US and the state did literally nothing
at all, it would be better in the situation that
exists now. Like it's not even just that they're being abandoned,
is that they're actively being prevented from like doing the
things they need to live. And it's I don't notice.
I think this is something you see on a sort
of broader level, right whether there's a lot of I
don't know about Back when I was in sort of
social theory land, there's a lot of talk about like
necropolitics and the state letting people die, and it's like, well, yeah,

(01:49:06):
but like they're also actively helping to kill them too,
Like that that's like it's it's not just that the
state abandons people. It's that the state abandons people and
then it takes the resources and prevents anyone else from
using them, and then you know, and when it when
it does sort of yeah, I mean going back to
sort of this NTO that's not doing anything. It's like, yeah,
when when it when it does sort of send these
resources out, it's sending them into these like into its

(01:49:29):
own sort of Paris State complex with the sort of
geo sector that's just not doing anything. And it's just
I don't know, like it's it's this bind, right because
it's like, yeah, like on the one hand, like communities
have to be able to support each other, but it's
like we don't have the resources for it, and that
has to come from somewhere, right, Yeah, it's impossible, and

(01:49:55):
it's it's heartbreaking to see when DC is barely doing
anything ing for the people that have been living here
for generations, and then when we have new folks arrive,
they're thrust into this impossible situation and no one's really

(01:50:16):
willing to engage with that problem. Um, and there are resources,
it's just a matter of whether you want to use
them for these purposes. And this is a problem that
we're seeing intimately here in d C. But it's a
problem that's existing everywhere around the country. And DC is

(01:50:39):
supposed to be a sanctuary city, Like this isn't this
isn't d C with a mayor that's you know, politically
aligned with Governor Abbott. This isn't a d C with
a mayor who is attempting to be vehemently anti immigrant.

(01:50:59):
It's mayor who is claiming to represent a sanctuary city,
a city that is supposed to welcome immigrants and yet
m saying welcome doesn't actually mean welcome. Yeah. I remember,

(01:51:21):
like I'm in Chicago and you know, Chicago's also sanctuary city,
and I I you know, we had to physically stop
deportation flights with our bodies. Like what the this like
haunting memory always remembers like the first big like anti ice,
like anti kids in cages protests that we had. One
of the groups that showed up to this thing like
what it's called Heartland Alliance and then you know they
describe itself as like this human rights an anti poverty organization,

(01:51:42):
and they were literally running five child attention centers in
Chicago and it was like, I don't know, the doesn't
mean that. That was like just the sort of like
the it's it's it's the rubber hitting the road of
saying you're a sanctuary city, and what does it look
like and it's like, well it means that your micro
justice organizations like run child prisons for immigrants. It's a

(01:52:05):
refusal to engage with reality a little bit. And you
know the energy of SAMO that is receiving female funding
to presumably abandoned people. Union Station is also you know,
if things go their way, trying to open up a

(01:52:26):
facility and DC too, you know, detain an accompanied children
and that's welcome to th things very ecity, it's probably
worth mentioning. It's like, you know, Spain another country that
has just like people getting like people. So Spain like
has a part of North Africa they control, and you

(01:52:46):
know they're like people like people get shot at the
border by soldiers trying to like trying to climb fences
getting in, and you know, it's it's it's this fun
thing where we're seeing like, I mean, this is what's
been happening for the last a really like forever, like
last five hundred years has been this. But this the
sort of this this incredible racist border system is not

(01:53:08):
just an American thing. It's in Europe, it's in it's
been exported like into Mexico itself. It's been I don't
know it's it's it's it's it's a it's a politics
that's just sort of everywhere, and like frontexs and THEU
does this stuff like it's it's all just I don't know,
it's borders are racist and they kill people and they

(01:53:29):
kill people, and it feels I don't actually think we
have to go to it's I think it's helpful to
make those analogies of how this is replicated across the world.
But I also think that you know, just a few

(01:53:51):
weeks ago, there were over fifty uh migrants that were
found dead in the ba of attractor trailer in San Antonio,
including you know, young indigenous folks. And we know that
there have been thousands of thousands of Haitians removed under

(01:54:16):
Title forty two UM and Haitians that are drowning in
the water trying to find a way to come to
the United States to seek safety. People are literally dying
and trying to get here. And what the folks that

(01:54:38):
are coming to d C in a way are the
lucky ones because they're from countries like Venezuela. They're from
countries like Cuba where US foreign policy finds it beneficial
to allow them to enter too publicly say, you know,

(01:55:00):
these are the quote unquote right asylum seekers and they're
able to be paroled into the country and still have
to deal with all of this crap that they're dealing with.
But there's countless other black, brown, indigenous folks that are

(01:55:26):
arriving at the border and literally risking their lives and
many losing their lives trying to get here because of
these like racialized border systems that we have and that
we're exporting all throughout the America's like go south to
Mexico to Tapatula and you basically have an open air
prison of black asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean that's something

(01:55:50):
that like like my my, the reason my family's here
is because we were able to like my graphic got
drafted into the Tiwanese army and he was like no,
because we were Taiwanese, we were able to get to
the US. But it's like, you know, lots and lots
of people like you know, if you if you were
from South Vietnam, sometime to let you in. If they
if you were from Taiwan, they will let you in,
But like God help you if you're from like Indonesia

(01:56:12):
or just like from I mean, so sometimes you get
people from China, but it's like, yeah, the I don't
know the way that just all of these people's lives
are being used at geopolitical tools, they're being used, and
then you know, once they get here, they're being used
as just sort of internal American political tools. And yeah,
it's just as watch people getting killed with the borders

(01:56:33):
and until we fucking make borders go away, like the
stuff is just going to keep happening, and people are
getting boarded onto buses and sent to d C because
Governor Abbott thinks this is the way that he can
run for president. Yeah, by being the most racist, xenophobic
guy in town. Maybe maybe, And and these folks are

(01:56:55):
just political tools, and um, it's it's devastating, um, and
it's it's really also kind of amazing to be able
to then also just like hang out with them and

(01:57:16):
break bread with them and and realize that we're all
sort of fighting this this mess together. Yeah. And I
think I don't know, like we we do. We do
a lot of episodes here that are incredibly depressing, but yeah,
like I guess, yeah, it isn't I guess important as

(01:57:38):
a as a thing to sort of end on is it,
Like yeah, I know, like we like we can take
care of these people, like we can if we actually
fight this together, we can beat these guys like we
I don't know, like it is actually possible. Like these
the all of the things that we're talking about, like
the stuff didn't used to exist. It's not it's not

(01:57:59):
something that in how really has to exist, and we
can make it not exist again. I think the the
response that we've had in DC has been are really
like I can't say it enough how beautiful it is
that we have a group of like over two volunteers

(01:58:23):
that have stepped up, UM and we've been able to
raise a remarkable amount of money, and we've had like,
you know, little kids sell cookies to support our efforts
and UM, it's it's really heartwarming, UM and people using
their neighborhood listeners to you know, get donations of car

(01:58:47):
seats to be able to you know, make sure that
when we're you know, helping families, we can make sure
that like the little kiddos are able to travel in
car seats safely and all of that. And we've been
able to and we're doing more of this of like
building relationships with folks around the country that are doing
similar work, or you know, if someone is taking a

(01:59:08):
bus to New York and it, you know, breaks down
in Philly, were able to mobilize other volunteers and Philly
to just like make sure that folks are like fine
and okay and like get on their next bus. And
that is amazing and beautiful and to me, I think
the thing that makes me optimistic and like mad at

(01:59:28):
the same time is that there are both at the
federal level and local levels, just billions and billions and
billions of dollars that are being invested into into solutions
that are based on like detention, surveillance, border militarization. When

(01:59:56):
God like if instead we just devoted those billy and
billions and billions of dollars into making sure that like
when folks arrive here, they can have like a comfy
bed to to to like lay in at night and
have food and be able to like support their families.
I mean it kind of sounds revolutionary, but but it's

(02:00:21):
just like it's so simple, um, and there is such
a concerted effort to do the opposite of the most basic. Hey,
welcome to my town. How can I welcome you. There
was if I remembering my like immigrations history right there.
They used they had this program in in the UK

(02:00:43):
where for a while where they would bring okay, you'd
have a family they're coming to the US and they
get paied with the British family, and the British family
would like show them the ropes. And it worked really well.
Everyone loved it, and they stopped doing it because they
once they brought people in that they couldn't deport them
because the entire community would show up would just be
like no, And so they stopped doing it. And it's
like that's a problem, Like that's the problem that like

(02:01:04):
people are then welcomed and loved by their communities. Like
that shouldn't be a problem that we have to solve.
That should be like, oh, this is a resounding success. Yeah,
And instead it's like it's like actually living in a
better world, actually having a community where people care for
each other and where people take care of each other
and where people love each other or people will fight
for each other, Like that is something that the state

(02:01:24):
sees as a threat. And I don't know, I guess
it's it's it's it's this, it's this weird thing where
it's like, you know, we like the better world we
could be living in, Like is is literally being built
right like you know you can you can you can
walk down the street and you can see people taking
care of each other. And then it's like here is

(02:01:47):
the state, Who's the only thing that they want to
do is just make everyone's lives increasingly miserable. It's yeah,
like is it? Is it? That's hard to just say, Hey, like,
folks want to be able to just like live. That's it.
It's all they want to be able to do is

(02:02:08):
just like live. They want to be able to work,
they want to be able to support their family, they
want to be able to be safe, they want to
be able to like eat good food and have fun.
And the state is doing everything but allowing that to
be and are like mutual aid work is helping folks

(02:02:33):
navigate and do as much of that as possible. Yeah,
I think I think that's a good note to end on,
unless you have anything else, I don't think so cool.
Um Okay, so where where can people go to find
and support this work? And where can they go to
like give money if they want to or actually help
volunteer too? If you're in the area. Yeah. So, um,

(02:02:55):
we have a link tree that has all of the
links to support us and all the ways. So if
you're here in d C and you want to be
able to support or if you want to donate, Um,
we have really cool t shirts that we sell that

(02:03:15):
say melt Ice that are buying to buy one of
our volunteers. Um. And so it's the link tree is
uh like the link tree h slash and d C
t X Solidarity twenty two And if you follow that link,
you will be able to um see all about our work. Um,

(02:03:39):
you know, get the demands that we have for Mayor Bowser,
support us in person, financially, whatever it is. All of
that lives there. And yeah we will. We will put
the link in the description. So cool. That'd be great.
I'll make sure you have it. Yeah, thank you, um
and yeah, thank you, thank you so much for joining us,
Thank you for having me. Yeah, and this has be naken.

(02:04:00):
Happen here, Go help your neighbors and go make the
state not be able to prevent you from doing that.

(02:04:21):
Welcome to it could happen on the internet. The only podcast.
I'm Robert Evans UM and today we've got St. Andrew
back in the studio. We don't actually have a studio.
That was a lie. That was a lie that I
do think I was cooler, St. Andrew. How are you
doing today? I am good, I'm good. Andrew dropped the saint.

(02:04:44):
Oh shit, I'm sorry. You're right, you're right, You're right.
We should probably. I'm sorry. That's good because I'm no
longer a scene. You got to saint? So Okay, if
I understand Catholicism, right, that means you undid someone Elsi's
three miracles. I know nothing about Catholicism. Okay, well, I'm

(02:05:06):
pretty sure we have the Protestants Protestant ground here. My
knowledge of Catholicism is that to be a saint, you
have to do a couple of miracles, but the last
one has always something to do with being dead, Like
they just decide that whatever you do when you're a corpse,
it is like, oh, it's a miracle. Oh Catholicism, Andrew,
what are we talking about? Um? Today we're gonna be

(02:05:30):
talking about something that I would see more traditional Contholicts.
We have some disagreements with no Christians. We have some
disagreements with them. That is I mean that is our
entire audience, is that this this podcast is completely listened
to by the Pope's Swiss guards on Vodicans. Yeah, we

(02:05:51):
we have deep penetration in the Vatican. That's an interesting
choice of woods considering the end of Pride month, but
allow it. All right, So, um, yeah, what are we
talking about. We'll be talking about human evolution, particularly it
pertains to human cooperation. Okay, the origins of human cooperation. O. Yeah,

(02:06:16):
I love this ship. I think that you know, people
send to emphasize human competition a lot um because capitalism
wants us to believe that we have these competitive you know,
dog eat dog. I don't know where that term came from,
By the way, I've always been curious about that. Um,
as far as I know, dogs don't eat each other. Um.

(02:06:38):
But it's interesting phase and I think it's kind of
apt here. Um. This is this idea that that that
we just competing all the time, that we're fighting is
it's a survival of the fittest, and that only the
strong survive. You know, when people talk, you know, casually
about prehistoric times, is this very it represents the stories

(02:07:02):
that we've been told about it and as a result,
it tends to be very you know, competitive, highly patriarchal,
highly violent, just constant into pus some violence. I mean,
that was the justification used to you know, reinforce the
state rights like or the state of nature. It's everybody
against themselves, and so as a result, you know, the

(02:07:25):
state had to be introduced. We treated some of our
freedoms for the safety that the state is supposed to provide.
But as far back as Brudon and really even further,
because let's be real, it's a very European concept. That's
something that can be protected towards all human societies and
all human philosophies. UM. But Prudon was one of the

(02:07:46):
first white guys, I guess um in his time period
and in his fields, really challenge that notion with you know,
mutually a fact of evolution. Of course, the studies and
stuff that he would have done, the knowledge that he
would have shared upon you know, non un studied by
people before him, but he was one of the first

(02:08:07):
really bring all that knowledge together into one place. UM.
Years later, Um, an anthropologist and paramatologists, was born. I
mean she wasn't born that, but she became that later
in life. In ninety six, that would be Sarah Black
for her, and so she made many major contributions revolutionary

(02:08:28):
psychology and sociology biology, especially pioneering our modern understanding of
the evolutionary basis of female behavior in both non human
and human primates. In two thousand two, she was recognized
as one of the fifth most important women in science
and in Mothers and Others. Together with her earlier work,

(02:08:51):
earned plready the National Academies Award for Scientific Reviewing in
honor of her insightful and visionary synthesis of a broad
range of day turn concepts from across the social and
biological sciences to illuminate the importance of biosocial processes among mothers,
in funds, and other social actors informing the evolutionary crucible

(02:09:11):
of human society. In essence, she got an award because
she recognized the fact that the relationship between mother and
child and you know how humans raise their children, Um,
it's vital in our evolution and in a becoming human. Yeah,
I mean that's um, Yeah, that's fascinating. I didn't know

(02:09:34):
any of that. Yeah, I mean humans, they we we
do recognize. Now I'm starting to recognize more and more
parmacto parmatologists at least that um humans I let other
great apes rather, they do care, they shay, and they
empathize a lot more than we may have originally thought.

(02:09:55):
But humans still when at know the caring competition, I
think we because of even something I call official and
not to me um on how we structure society use
is probably one of the more crusal show of you know,
the other greed apes. Yeah, it's interesting whenever I because
obviously I've read stuff about like empathy and apes, but

(02:10:18):
it's always in the context of the ones that we
taught sign language to. The one I'm remembering particularly is
and I'm I'm spacing on the name that the scientists
gave her, but one of the apes, yeah, Cocoa, when
her reaction to like nine eleven um because it was
apparently like on the TV or some ship wouldn't happened,
but like I never here emphasized the same degree um

(02:10:41):
or you know, maybe I just have not sought it out,
but it's certainly kind of less uh less discussed as
like evidence of empathy within um within like the societies
that they built, I guess like would be the term
for them. The little their communities, I don't know, whatever
you wanna call them. Yeah, yeah, I was interesting as well.
I mean, Coco was a guerrilla and regarding her sign

(02:11:04):
language is actually interesting video essay talking about how a
new NS word sign language. Then we assume, but Coco
was a guerrilla and humans are were closely related to
two groups who was being um bunobos and chimpanzees, And
we tend to look at chimpanzees, which tends to be
more you know, violent, and people use them as an

(02:11:29):
example of all this how humans naturally are despite the
fact that you know, we have millions of years of
evolution diverging from chimpanzees. You know, our last common ancestor
was like six or seven million years ago. Yeah, that
that's a bit distant. Like yeah, like I got member
to five or six years and I consider us pretty
like pretty far apart. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then

(02:11:53):
on the top of that, like there was enough time
for some serious divergences. Is not how you know, like
the fact that humans, you know, walk up right and
chimpanzee is they still have you know that that four
legged gate. It's actually something that I learned recently evolved

(02:12:16):
on two separate occasions, that being that particular kind of
knuckle walk. Um. Yeah, I just want that kind of
fascinating kind of besides the point, um, but yeah, I mean,
we we tend to look at chimpanzeese as our closest example,
but nobles which are a lot more social, I would say,
a lot more cooperative and less violent, and chimpanzees actually

(02:12:41):
share a lot of you know, similarities in terms of
you know, our behavior. And they're also one of the
few animal species that have been you know, recognized as
having sex for pleasure and not just procreation, So good
for them. When we talk about evolution, a lot of
it has been shaped by dar And even though science

(02:13:02):
is not about figures and big figures and their big ideas,
it's about the ideas themselves. Um. But still, seeing as
Darwin was the one who really introduced, no, the idea
of competition, the idea of of all that in evolution,
those sorts of notions which came really out of his

(02:13:24):
time and industrializing competitive woods, um, it really overstates the
rule of competition as of driving force and evolution, when
in reality, cooperation was far more potent force when it
comes to like pro social human tendencies um, you know,

(02:13:46):
doing things to benefit others. That's what pro social is.
Dr Hardie really comes down on the cooperation side of
things in her book Mothers and Others especially, brings together
all this evidence that we are basically the sad dounes
of a place to see in species of corporative breeders.
Corporative breeding is a practice amongst some animal species UM.

(02:14:10):
Other mammals do it, but I think we are one
of the few. We were were were the only create
apes to do it, and there are other primates to
do it, or the monkeys to do it, but none
closely related to us. Cooperative breeding is basically the practice
or the reproductive strategy UM where all parental care is

(02:14:34):
provided to the offspring of you know, the children of
cittain parents in the group. Al parental care is basically
the practice of UM, basically non direct parents care M
care provided by individuals other than the parents. And so

(02:14:57):
by having that network in place, by having the process
of out parenting in place, that's how we were able
to be so successful as a species. You know, distribution,
you know um, you know, establishing ourselves in all these
different environments because humans spread barely rapidly around the globe,
and we used to. We've established ourselves and created cultures

(02:15:20):
and all sorts of unique environments, and honestly, we are
the most successful out of the primates in not regard
so kudus to us um, and that is because of
corporative breeding. Did you just wou Probert? Yeah, of course, yes,
like we have to, we have to ratio the rest

(02:15:43):
of the primates, you know, very very based on us.
We literally reassured them, literally were re feeling everything on
this goddamn planet except for chickens. And no, except for chickens.
Corn is definitely ratio. Thus, yeah, for sure, for sure

(02:16:04):
cows too. Man. Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. Cows
chickens on this one. For sure. We have a lot
of them. Yeah. But I mean there's many different species
of goods and there's only one species a few months. Yeah,
you know, I mean, what's the population of dogs? Oh,

(02:16:26):
it's actually every time I look, it's less than you'd expect.
What nine million? Yes, that's ridiculous, less than i'd have expected.
I want more, give me more. Do millions like rookie
numbers like I was going to expect, like at least
a couple of billion just based on but no, just nine. Yeah.

(02:16:47):
Every time I look it up, I recall being like, oh,
there's not as many dogs as I thought there were.
I guess they would corporative bredas sure not. And only
four hundred million cats was a rookie numbers cat Come on, cats,
But it's actually probably I mean, party for the best.
They do a lot of damage, my dad always says.

(02:17:11):
My dad always says that we need more dogs in
the world to fix the fucked up humans. Yeah, I
mean I feel a lot of pressure to put on dogs.
That's completely fair. I feel like that's really our job
to fix up humans. Yeah, no, no, no, well I
mean dogs for that. I mean cots and dogs are

(02:17:33):
pulling a lot of weights as it is, you know
they are. What are ferrets doing? Yeah? What a fish doing?
What are ferrets doing? Andrew ferrets? Fucking ferrets? Yeah? And
like fucking goldfish? Right, what are you guys? What do
you what a goldfish? What have they been doing lately?
Motherfucker's like, get off your asses and stop us from

(02:17:54):
killing people. Goldfish, stop the war in Ukraine? Goldfish, Come on,
I mean to get to cut gold fish. Some slack.
They're busy dying because people would want to take care
of them. Yeah. Yeah, they're like all of the people
treat them like house plants. I didn't think we would
have Andrew being a goldfish to apologist on this podcast.

(02:18:16):
Correct if I'm wrong, But I don't think Cool committed
any like wool crimes or anything within my rights to
defend them. They haven't stopped any work crimes either. Plus,
I mean, this is my police snell kill talking, and
I've I've you know, I've I've neglected my fair shaff Yeah,
you know, speaking of cross species cooperation. When I was
younger and living in Texas, there was this one day

(02:18:38):
where like we're out on this in our like fucking
backyard area, and we see walking through the alley behind
our houses this massive turtle probably three four pounds, like
like easily like three or four feet uh in in
circumference on his shell, just like an enormous animal, just
like strolling around the neighborhood, not a species that you
that you see in Texas wild. So we like kind

(02:19:01):
of try to corral him. We can't lift him, he's massive,
but we like corral him into the into our yard area.
And give him some cucumbers, and eventually his person comes
around and the guy explains that like, yeah, when teenage
mimut ninja turtles came out, a lot of people bought
a bunch of different kinds of turtles, thinking they were
good pets. But they didn't realize that there's a lot
of the turtles that get sold like never stopped growing,
like if you keep them alive, they just keep getting bigger,

(02:19:24):
and so he like and they smelled about only if
they're time. He had adopted this turtle and it lived
in his yard and he said like, yeah, he's really strong,
Like I have a good fence, but every two or
three years he'll just walk through it. Like most of
the time he chooses to stay in the yard, but
every couple of years he was, I'm just gonna go
on a walk and and he's like yeah, he just

(02:19:45):
like breaks through the fence. It takes him about a second,
like if he wants to do it. That's like, I
don't know if you've seen Baki, have you seen back? No?
Is this is this me um and no this is
not my my web coming out story. I have not
read of you with much in that regard but I
started back he recently and the first episode they established

(02:20:08):
that all these people are coming to Tokyo right for
like some kind of fighting competition. And the way that
they established those people as are dangerous is that these
are all like criminals and like death through and so
like in the process of being put to death, like
one person is, you know, being injectives, only one persons
being electrocuts, being hung, and they all managed to break

(02:20:32):
free after they die and like break off the prison easily.
This one guy, he was imprisoned underwater. He breaks out
of the underwater prison and swims several miles up to
the surface and then swims all the way to Tokyo.
And it's like, for some reason, not to it will
break it out of his inclusion whenever he chooses. Just

(02:20:55):
reminded me of like they're trying to establish his power levels.
You No, he's he's too powerful to be contained, um.
And he's probably still alive because they live forever um,
which is again why they're bad pets. Yeah, because what
did you do about slavery? Yeah yeah, yeah, well that

(02:21:15):
what he may not have been around for slavery, but
what did you do? What are you going to do
the next time they're slavery turtle. You know, are you
gonna stop it? I don't think so. You're a turtle.
We mean, next time, is this something you should be telling?
What is attention to the Supreme Court? It's not. Well
in the future, that's sure, that's sure. What leave the

(02:21:38):
turtles out of this? Well if they stop the Supreme Court,
I will stop shooting on the turtle. Is you're just
doing that meme from where people were like I gave
up my plastic straws for the turtles. Where are they now?
That was a thing. Yeah, it was bad. I don't
remember that. It's like, come on, just get a well.

(02:22:01):
I will say that. I mean, at least for corporative breeders.
And I think our our tendency of corperative breeding tendency
probably has something to do with the fact that we
adopt other species as pets and as members of our family,
because you don't really see other animals doing that. No,

(02:22:22):
you know, um, I think there's there's some kind of
like fish or crustacean or something that that keeps another
species like as livestock. Yeah, there's a couple of species
to do versions of that for sure. Right, But I
mean we love our dogs and our cats, our ferrets

(02:22:44):
and our snakes and our tarantulas and our ferrets questioned goods. Yeah,
people are trying to like domesticate foxes so we could
love them too. You know. It's the people they are,
people who who keep big cats that, people who keep
like ms, and people who keep all kinds. We just

(02:23:06):
you know, it's like we've got to catch them all,
you know, like we just want to take all these
creatures and we wanted to love them. I don't know
that says about us other than the fact that our
cooperative nature extends beyond the boundaries of you know, us
as a species. We inhrated very high levels of mutual tolerance,

(02:23:27):
of perspective taken and other pro social impulses from ancestors
who use our parents or care and provisioning of the
young two survive. I mean, we didn't invent complex corporation.
Our pre human ancestors did, but we elaborated upon it. Yeah,

(02:23:49):
it's um. It's always interesting to me to think about that.
I think back up to one of the first time
I ever went to a war zone was Ukraine, and
it was this We were in this little town called
of Dificult. It was getting shelled by the Russians, and
there was this big the way they do the heating
over there, they have these events going underneath, are these
tubes going underneath all the houses to supply them with
like gas and stuff. And there's this this big was

(02:24:12):
this big central like kind of box thing and in
one there's a few of them in the town and
stuff that like is the I don't know, I guess
it's like the like nexus of a bunch of different
houses all whatever heating systems, so it's warm, and the
people they're like when the war started, a bunch of
people fled and they left pets behind, you know, sometimes

(02:24:34):
they didn't really have a choice because it's war. Um.
So there were all these cats and dogs, and soon
all these breeding cats and dogs, all these kittens and puppies,
and people who lived there had like turned that little
junction box for the heating system into this like massive
kind of open air cat and dog sanctuary. So like
there were all of these like dozens and dozens of

(02:24:54):
puppies and kittens just like living together in this big
heating box. Um. In then the over this like being
taken care of by all these local ladies who would
scrounge up food every morning and make sure that they
were all taken care of. UM. And it was interesting
because you could see all these like cats and dogs
living together and all of these people coming together to
take care of animals they didn't know. UM. At the

(02:25:16):
same time, like all of the people were doing their
level best to murder the folks like a mile and
a half away and vice versa. UM. So we contain
multitudes of human beings definitely. I mean that's possible to
write like the fact that we are sue eager to
like share another emotional steeds, you know, to empathize and

(02:25:39):
do we either we assume eager to involve ourselves and
and give and share with those who are unrelated to us.
I mean there are a lot of species that do
not realise the young at all. Um. And then there
was the do and try to kill other people's young,
and there was a two stick care of their own young.

(02:26:01):
But you know, we even in this like super individualistic capitalists,
will we still find ways to look out for each other.
And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, of course, you know,
cooperative reading doesn't mean that there's like constant like on
either dynastore like cooperation and yeah all the time, it

(02:26:26):
still can't be competition, which you know, all these different things. Yeah,
but behaviorally, anatomically, and emotionally modern humans cooperative breeders. And
the crazy part is those you know, three um traits
you know, behavior and not to be in an emotion,

(02:26:47):
Those illustrats not evolved simultaneously. So for example, of physical
features like our eyes and the fact that our eyes
are are able to you know, we can see the
whites and our eyes and that way we can put
ourselves in other people's perspectives and that kind of thing,
we could see the emotions more clearly. You know, the

(02:27:07):
fact that we we were prone to sharing our smiles,
and the fact that, um, you know, our vocal courts
have such range to be able to communicate to many
different things. Um. While these are hallmarks of the fact
that you know, even before our super big brains developed,

(02:27:34):
we already getting these treats that would have helped us
in cooperation. But I wanted a lot of time though,
because you know, a lot of the shapes we developed
before language. Um, it's like what was the first word
of humanity? You know what was the first sentence? What
was the first thing like we said? And how did

(02:27:54):
other people react when the person said it. I can
imagine that, you know, like agriculture, something that's developed independently, um,
multiple different occasions in different places. But I still wonder,
like what those foost conversations might have been avoked. Yeah,

(02:28:15):
I mean I think a lot of them probably would
have been arguments with other people who didn't want us
to do words. UM who will ultimately right, you know
if if only Yeah, I don't know, it's interesting, Like
I think it probably like we we just did a
couple of episodes about the history of of of gynecology UM,

(02:28:40):
and one of the things that we talked about at
the start was like the prehistory of medicine, which which
likely began in an organized way UM by like likely
the first people practicing medicine in any way, we're pregnant
women and women who had been pregnant trying to help
each other survive pregnancy, right, UM. And I wouldn't be
surprised if at I mean, food gathering is obviously the

(02:29:02):
other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if like language
started as a way to try and like communicate and
better survive making babies because it's it's like super dangerous
and also entirely necessary um and and something that kind
of particularly benefits from communication. So I don't know, I

(02:29:22):
wouldn't be shocked if that was like the first thing
we talked about, so to speak. Mm hmm, that makes sense.
But I'm also thinking as well, and it just occurred
to me it's pretty possible like that the first language
was not spoken language. I feel like it may have
been like a form of sign language, you know, because

(02:29:44):
you know, we have these hands, and people tend to
talk with their hands, so yeah, oh yes, I think
hypothesis is that, you know, we use the hands to
communicate things before we started speaking. I mean, the fact
that we were able to teach apes, you know, other
apes to use sign language, I think that's a good

(02:30:05):
sign that we can lead to communicate with that face. Yeah,
I mean, it's also you know, probably how our communication
with dogs started, because that's one of the things that
makes them special is they're pretty much alone in animals
and that they like and kind of instinctively grow up
understanding that when we gesture at them it means stuff
like if you point dogs will look where you're pointing

(02:30:27):
a lot of the time rather than at you, which
is like a rare trait in animals. So yeah, I
think you're probably right on the money there. Huh. I
didn't even think about that. That's true. That's true. And
of course that makes it fun because you could always
fake them out and throw something stupid to do. Yeah. Yeah,
and does fall for that ship So I love she

(02:30:50):
does not fall for that. I can't fake her. I
can't fake her out. That's probably why she's the woman
of the host. I'm you're all wrong pretending to throw
stuff at a dog and then it goes running and
then it realizes that you faked it, Like that's the best.
I can't relate because if I try to do that,
she looks at me like a good try. Uh huh, Okay, Sophie.

(02:31:12):
Where you need to go is corgy Con in San Francisco.
One of these years will they let Anderson? And even
though she's only she does she's only party. There's nothing
but acceptance of corgy Con acceptance and hundreds of corgies
frolicking in the surf. It rules. She'll try to hurt
them all. Yeah, they are all trying to hurt all

(02:31:34):
of them into it. They are all very excited and
don't know what to do with each other. It moves
so as the book progresses, Hotty spend some time talking
about how we are similar to and different from other
greed EAPs, tweeling about how we use eye contact and

(02:31:55):
smiles to bond even from a young age. Um, you hm,
we people we've be tend to hear about it. But
the fact that babies cries are so attuned towards attention
and capturing the attention of people, Um, these are all

(02:32:16):
in like basterds. Yeah, yeah, I mean I was. I
was a screamer. Apparently I used to real real ball,
ball and ball and ball. In fact, one story I
was told was that the neighbor called and was like
something happening to Andrew, and my parents were like, nah,
he's just grand. There's like three o'clock in the morning.

(02:32:42):
But I mean, look at me now, I'm balling for justice,
that's right. Yeah. One interesting treat that you know humans
have is all willingness to like share our babies with others,
other grade apes. You know, those mothers. They tend to

(02:33:03):
have like constant contact and care with their children, you know,
like they don't let others touch their children at all,
probably because like other mothers tend to want to kill
their kids or of course harm to their kids, they
tend to be very protective of them. Whereas you know,
as all parents, we are you know, full of fledged
cooperative readers. You know, we have not only shared our

(02:33:26):
young with others, but al paar intervals have been been
recorded breastfeeding the young of others, you know, and and
masticating and passing like hard to digest foods to infunts.
I'm mixing up my terms a bit in terms of
you know, what what is a primate and what isn't

(02:33:48):
ape versus what is you know, just whatever. But mamosets
and tamarins which are colored strike kids or calatressids colortry kids,
they are also corporative breeders and they're very fast breeders
as well, rapid rapid breeders. Um, so you know, good

(02:34:09):
for them. It's also typical of our species. We tend
to be very fast breeders, and that's why we reshoot
all the other great tapes. What I find interesting as
well is that we'll be able to breed so rapidly
despite the fact that our um do you'll remember um
the word for like carrying a child. I'm just blacking

(02:34:30):
right now, Gregors. No, no, no, I think you're you're
thinking of the incubation period. Is that what we're trying
to think of. Yeah, but that's such a that that
feels like a very the humanizing way of witness. Yeah,
I'll just say that carrying a baby, you know, and

(02:34:50):
the costs because on you know, woman's body, on humans body, Um,
it is like a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah.
And if we keep will have ha been so many
in one lifetime despite the cost necessary to raise each
I mean other animals they have like meets and seasons
and you know, they have set amounts of children they

(02:35:12):
could have in their lifetime. But no, mm hm, you
know we could just I mean, they're their stories of
women who have had like dozens of kids, which is
you know, unfortunate circumstances because you know, in those cases
it tends to be um, not necessarily willing. But the

(02:35:32):
fact that we are capable of having many kids is
lends towards the importance of having support systems in place.
Because other animals don't tend to have more children they
can care for if that is you know, the care
for children. A lot of them just eat their kids
if they can't care for them exactly. Can't do that once,

(02:35:56):
you know, makes sense, Yeah, whereas we kind of evolved
to have support systems in placement, speaking of eating babies,
kind of there kind of is a dark side to that,
um because even though we tend to have you know,
these children and stuff, and we tend to were supposed

(02:36:17):
to have these support networks to care for them, the
practice of infanticide is actually something that has a long
long history UM in human practice, where if a mother
determines that they're not able to raise their child, they
don't have the support systems in place to care for

(02:36:41):
that child. Different practices would typically be used to you know,
deal with that child. And that's of course what makes
the anti abortion stances um soon inhumane, you know, because Yeah,

(02:37:05):
the whole reason we that abortion is so um important
is because it protects the you know, the autonomy and
the agency of you know, people who can carry children.
And yet in this will it continues to atomize us
and individualize us and separate us um you know, shipping

(02:37:27):
some people of their support networks, so we can in
our support networks. It's still expected to and punished heavily
if you do not just pump out as many children
as you can. And it's it's sick, it's really sick. Yeah,
that's not great when it comes to those support networks.

(02:37:48):
Most people are familiar with, you know, extended family like
for example, grand appearance UM and I fact, an infant
survival is significantly affected by a grandmother's presence, which is
why humans tend to live long past their reproductively viable period.

(02:38:12):
You know, human females live after menopause for pretty long
time in commarison to other species, and of course their
grandmothers and there of course fathers. UM. There are sisters
and god parents and really a lot of other um

(02:38:33):
cultural systems in place, even polyandrous meeting UM. I think
I mentioned that in the previous in the previous episode.
There are also forms of like bilocal flexible residents patterns
where you know, you always have kin around to take

(02:38:54):
care of your infants. And I would say that it's
it's kind of tough because a lot of people these days,
you know, struggled with the extended families. Um, it's very
much cool. Um, I love you, but I'm glad we

(02:39:18):
live in separate kind of situation, you know, Like extended
families definitely have a lot of proves and cons um
which is why we actually find I think interesting in
a lot of examples of chosen families throughout different societies,
and also even there's some evidence that that might have
in the case in the past as well, where unrelated

(02:39:41):
people would form groups together um. As one example, I
remember reading about, of course this can't necessarily extended to
prehistoric times, but I've seen it in multiple different hunter
gatherer situations. But um, where we have this this clan

(02:40:01):
system in place, um, and you can not so how
far you travel, you can expect to receive care for
members of your clan. UM. In North America, I think
it was like the Beer clan and the Elk Plan
and all these different plans UM. In Aboriginal Australia, they
ablso have different groups as well, and so people were

(02:40:22):
able to interrupt with each other across huge distances and
set them in different places and connect with others to
find kin you really necessarily directly related. Yeah, there's a
couple I mean there's a there's a book called sets
It On that I read many many years ago that's
about kind of like the evolution of human sexuality and
how some of it's been like how different cultures have

(02:40:44):
looked at things like like what makes someone apparent UM,
And there's all these different attitudes, Like before we had
kind of the scientific understanding of like where you know,
how how babies are conceived um, that we have now
there were all these different attitudes this idea and I
forget the name of the people who, but they still

(02:41:05):
exist with somewhere in Latin America, and their their their
belief was essentially that when you got someone pregnant, that
was the start of the process, and then after like conception,
the person with the baby would go around and yes, yes,
I remember that woman for the baby, and the idea
was that like, well, yeah, when they fucked, that person's

(02:41:27):
like essence gets added to this forming child. And one
of the things that that does socially is it means
that it means that for that community, UM, children weren't
seen as having one father. They're seen as having a
bunch of fathers, all of whom were like responsible for
teaching the kid and raising it, which is like, oh,
that's a very sensible way to, uh, to organize your
little society is to is to is to ensure that like,

(02:41:49):
the kids coming up have as many adults who are
like responsible for them as possible, which is, broadly speaking,
the best thing you can do for kids is to
have a bunch of adults be interested in their their
their their success exactly because I mean, like, if you
have like one of the best hunters in the village
raised in your child, and you have the best craftsman

(02:42:11):
of the villageries in your child, and you have the
best fisher villageries and child, that child is gonna have
a very well rounded education. You know, it's going to
be able to learn a lot of different skills that
they're going to need. I mean, that's just one of
the many positive effects of having multiple care givers. The
development of a child's world view and sense of self,
their concept of self and others, their concept of empathy,

(02:42:35):
the concept of independence, how they how they view the
world as either dangerous or insecure or giving and welcoming,
and so I mean, we are so used to this
nuclear family world view, which is these independent um households

(02:42:56):
that we don't consider the fact that having a broad
range of people raising them is actually crucial to their
personal development as children, to the human development really having
all those different perspectives and stuff in place. And I mean,
that's part of what Pretty talks about, especially in her

(02:43:19):
final chapter, that being how in modern times, the accumulation
of property um, the emergence of patriarchy um, even the
stuff in the post industrial era, all of these would
prompt to shift from cooperative breeding, from cooperation between groups,

(02:43:43):
two war between groups, especially with property, because when you
have property, you have a need to hold onswer property.
And the whole idea of property is you and yours,
the exclusion of all others, right, you know. And so

(02:44:05):
at the end of her book, she also speculates we
might be losing our art of nurture because we are
continually evolving um. But she wonders what might be potential
evolutionary effects we if we're wearing children who are not
living in internet contact with a variety of caregivers, because

(02:44:26):
especially within those first two years of life, influence rate
and responsible care taking relationships developed in their potentials for empathy,
mind reading, and cooperation and collaboration. I mean, these behaviors
are the outcome of complex interactions between both genes and nurture.
The question is, how can these in their potentials remain

(02:44:52):
more than potentials, you know, I mean, because the development
of them is far from guaranteed. A lot of children
these days are raised without extensive social contact. UM. I mean,
even in the year of COVID, where all children are
isolated at home, especially the heights of pandemic. I really
wonder if we will see like a Mark at like

(02:45:16):
distinct generation of like within a range of two years
of children who just aren't as socialized because for those
first two years of their life they were kind of isolated. Well,
those first few years, they're like, they're kind of isolated
because there's this lack of empathy, lack of corporative skills,

(02:45:41):
and lack of attachment that may cause it's Mr Mark,
It's it's really trauma. Um. But trauma doesn't necessarily stop
people from continuing that drauma, from reproducing and carrying that on.
And so I really I'm really curious us to see
what the effects that might be and also what we

(02:46:03):
can do to try to um cube that negative impact.
The last question she asked is, really will humans in
the future still be empathetic and curious and about the
emotions of others because of our ancient heritage. Can you

(02:46:25):
not care I'm paraphrasing here, or will these systems that
we have in place evolve us in the more Marcafellion direction. Well,
I guess that's the mystery that we're all going to
get to watch unfold in pieces, at least over the
course of you know, the rest of our lives and

(02:46:46):
everyone else's lives. It is, I don't know. I I
think the overall arch of it speaks more to the
things that about us that are good into increasing cooperation,
because that is like the story of the last couple
hundred thousand years of human evolution, although at the same
time some of that a lot of that cooperation has

(02:47:09):
gone towards fucked up ends as well. Like, I mean,
all of the good and the bad things happening right
now are are one way or the other examples of cooperation, right,
Like it's it's, uh, yeah, I don't know, let's help
things get better. So I think we could do more

(02:47:30):
than hoope, I think we can act. Yeah, We're going
to have I mean, like that's the thing, right like
part of how specifically in the United States, I mean,
but internationally to the right has gotten so much over
the last really five or six years in particular, is
cooperation across borders and across like ideological differences. Like there's

(02:47:53):
there has been like tremendous sustained cooperation that has allowed
them to amass power, the power that they're early exercising.
And the only thing that's going to actually counter that
is the cooperation um an organization if a much larger
amount of people, Like there's not that many of those folks,
that's why they've had to be so organized. There's a
lot more of us. But we're also can't stop fighting

(02:48:15):
about ship. So it is it is like we are
going to have to evolve in real time to cooperate
better with one another and more effectively in order to
in order to wrench the wheel back. That's true. M hm. Anyway,
that's not lose uh And let's not lose your plug,

(02:48:37):
Dobles Andrew. Yes, you can follow me on Twitter. I
don't disclose seem true. I'm finding me on YouTube and
truism hell yeah, hell yeah. Well, folks, that's gonna be
all for us here today. That It could Happen Here
until next time, Go happen somewhere else. Hey, we'll be

(02:49:00):
back Monday with more episodes every week from now until
the heat death of the Universe. It could Happen Here
is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
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You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
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(02:49:22):
for listening.