It Could Happen Here Weekly 56

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you
can make your own decisions. Hello, and welcome to It

(00:28):
could happen here. This is Sharene and today is going
to be the start of a little series about Libya.
Why Libya, you may ask, Well, I wanted to learn
about Libya, so selfishly I thought, why not record myself
learning about Libya and maybe y'all can learn along with me. Um.
I think there are so many countries right now that

(00:50):
are in a state of unrest or turmoil or instability,
and it's really important to know how we got here,
know what those countries went through to reach this state
of unpredictability and unease. So we're gonna start with Libya today.

(01:12):
There are so many other countries I want to do
this with, But I really love history and I love
knowing the context of a country. So hopefully by the
end of this will reach present day news about Libya
and we'll have a foundation to talk about Libya in
the future from a place of knowing. Let's go to
seventy four BC all the way back to seventy four
b C. The Romans conquered Libya and held control until

(01:35):
six forty three a D. In sixty three a D.
I'm Ad been Alas conquered Libya and spread Islam across
northern Africa. He was the Arab commander who led the
Muslim conquest of Egypt and is regarded as one of
the most important figures in the history of Egypt because
he introduced a Slam to the country. He also served

(01:55):
as its governor in six forty to sixty six and
again from six fifty eight to six sixty four a D.
He founded a new city just north of the Roman
fort of Babylon called Fostat. Today, the Mosque of Amas
still marks the site of this city. He is a
highly respected figure for Muslims. Now, let's fast forward to

(02:18):
the sixteenth century, when Libya became part of the Ottoman Empire.
At this point, the Ottoman Empire had accumulated a huge
amount of territory and continued to do so. In sixteen
forty three a d. The Ottoman Empire was at its
largest extent. Go look at a map. It is a lot.
It's known as one of history's most powerful empires, and

(02:39):
it grew from a Turkish stronghold in Anatolia into a
vast state that at its peak reached as far north
as Vienna, Austria, as far east as the Persian Gulf,
as far west as Algeria, and as far south as Yemen.
It is a huge swath of land, and the Ottoman
Empire on its own deserves many episodes. I think it's

(03:01):
a very fascinating part of history, but we'll get there
another time. Now, let's jump aheads centuries to the early
nineteen hundreds at the start of World War One. So
this whole time, all these centuries, between the sixteenth century
in the early nineteen hundreds, the Ottoman Empire was in
control of Libya and a lot of other territories surrounding it.

(03:24):
But at the start of World War One, the Ottoman
Empire was already in decline. The Ottoman army met with
a disastrous defeat in the Italio Turkish War, that was
between nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve and the Balkan Wars
between nineteen twelve and nineteen thirteen, and both of these
defeats resulted in the Ottomans being driven out of North
Africa and nearly out of all of Europe. The Ottoman

(03:46):
Empire officially ended in nineteen twenty two when the title
of Ottoman Sultan was eliminated. Again, this was only a
century ago, nWo. We think everything happened so long ago,
but a century isn't that long. And uh, I feel
like maybe the word empire makes something seem very far away,
but it really wasn't. And maybe this is just a

(04:08):
little prequel to me talking with the Ottoman Empire in
a future episode. Who knows if that'll ever happened. Stay tuned,
I suppose anyway. Turkey was declared a republic on October
twenty nine of nineteen twenty three, when Mustafa command out
of Took, who was an army officer, founded the Independent
Republic of Turkey. The Ottoman Empire deserves many episodes on

(04:29):
its own, as I said, but let's go back to
Libya for today. There was a stretch of time preceding
the fall of the Ottoman Empire when Libya was under
Italian rule. It started between nineteen eleven and nineteen twelve
when Italy sees Libya from the Ottomans and then began
a twenty year insurgency against Italian rule. In the nineteen twenties,

(04:53):
Libyan resistance grew as the Sanusi dynasty joined in alongside
the Mata Campaign. Just a quick little thing about the
Sanusi dynasty. It was a Muslim political religious tatica which
means a Sufi order and a clan in colonial Libya
and the Sudan region, founded in Mecca in eighteen thirty
seven by the Grand Sanusi a k A Sanusi a Kabid,

(05:17):
the Algerian Muhammad ibn Ali A Sanusi. Sanusi was concerned
with what he saw as both the decline of Islamic
thought and spirituality and the weakening of Muslim political integrity.
I bring this up to note that by the nineteen
twenties this dynasty had been around for nearly a century,
and so when it joins the Libyan resistance alongside Mata Campaign,

(05:40):
it seems very significant. But in ninety one, Italy broke
the resistance. The recombination of major armed operations and concentration
camps for the rebel population is captured and executed. In
nineteen thirty four, Italy united the provinces as the Colony
of Libya and steps up Italian migration as part of

(06:01):
an eventual plan for the incorporation of Libya into a
greater Italy. In two the Allies oust Italians from Libya,
which was then divided into three sections. There was Triplitania
in the northwest, Fasan in the southwest, and Syrenica in
the east. The French to control of Faysan and the
British to control of the remaining Syrenica and Tripolitania. In

(06:25):
nineteen fifty one, Libya becomes a dependent under King Idris
Elsa Nusi, and in fifty six it grants two American
oil companies a concession of some fourteen million acres. In
sixty one, King DRIs, who was now in power for
a decade, opens a one hundred and four mile pipeline
which links its important oil fields in the interior to

(06:47):
the Mediterranean Sea, and this makes it possible to export
Libyan oil for the very first time. I don't know,
but that last sentence of um being able to export
Libyan oil for the time seems like the beginning of
the end for me. Again, how do we get here?
This is how? Anyway? Let's continue from the nineteen sixties,

(07:08):
which introduced the good Daffi era. In nineteen sixty nine,
King Idris was deposed in a military coup led by
Colonel mom Mudaga Daffi. He pursues a pan Arab agenda
by attempting to form mergers with several Arab countries, and
also introduces state socialism by nationalizing most economic activity, including

(07:28):
the oil industry. In nineteen seventy, Libya orders the closure
of a British air base in the Buk and the
giant US Wheelis Air Force base in Tripoli. Property belonging
to Italian settlers is also nationalized. In nineteen seventy one,
the national referendum approves the proposed Federation of Arab Republics

(07:49):
the f a R, which was comprised of Libya, Egypt
and Syria. However, the f a R never really takes off,
and in seventy three, Colonel Gaddaffi's declaires a cultural revolution,
which includes the formation of people's committees in schools, hospitals, universities,
workplaces and administrative districts, and then Libyan forces proceed to

(08:12):
occupy the Auzu Strip a northern Chad. In nine Gaddafi
writes and publishes the Greek Book, which was a short
book setting out the political philosophy of You Guessed It
Libyan leader mom Mugga Daffy. It is said to have
been inspired in part by the Little Red Book a
k A quotations from Chairman Mount Stung. An English translation

(08:35):
was issued by the Libyan People's Committee, and a bilingual
English slash Arabic edition was issued in London by Martin
Brian and O'Keefe in nineteen seventy six. During the Libyan
Civil War, copies of this book were burned by anti
che Daffi demonstrators in Libya. According to British author and
former Greater London Council member George Tremlett, Libyan children spent

(08:59):
two hours a week studying this book as part of
their curriculum. Excerpts were broadcast every day on television and radio,
and its slogans were also found on billboards and painted
on buildings in Libya. This book was everywhere and internationally
by Lectures and seminars on the Green Book had been
held at universities and colleges in France, Eastern Europe, Colombia,

(09:23):
and Venezuela. On a state visit to Libya in two
thousand and eight, Socialist Bolivian President Evo Morales cited the
Green Book as a major influence on his political beliefs
and policies. The Green Book rejects both capitalism and communism,
as well as representative democracy. Instead, it proposes a type
of direct democracy overseen by the General People's Committee, which

(09:47):
allows direct political participation for all adult citizens. It also
talks about the crucial importance of complete freedom of speech.
There's also a paragraph in the book about abolishing money
that is simil learn to a paragraph and Frederick Engels
Principles of Communism. Goodophi wrote, the final step is when

(10:07):
the new socialist society reaches the stage where profit and
money disappear. It is through transforming society into a fully
productive society and through reaching in production a level where
the material needs of the members of society are satisfied.
On that final stage, profit will automatically disappear and there
will be no need for money. As far as the

(10:30):
reception of this book goes, though it wasn't great he was.
Ambassador David Mack called the book quite jumbled, with various ideas,
including quote a fair amount of xenophobia wrapped up in
a strange mixture. When I told my mom I was
researching Libya, she immediately mentioned this book to me, and
she couldn't stop cracking up. She's still in disbelief that

(10:53):
a leader wrote something like this and then forced his
entire country to read it and basically praise him for it.
So that was entertaining to watch, I will say that.
But anyway, five years later, in seventy seven, Goddaffi declares
a people's revolution, changing the country's official name from the
Libyan Arab Republic to the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamhadiya.

(11:17):
He sets up revolutionary committees and this heralds the start
of institutionalized chaos, economic decline, the abusive authoritarian power, and
general arbitrary nous. This is a good place to take
a little break, so b RB okay, we're back. Before
the break, we talked about Daffi declaring a people's revolution

(11:38):
and how ultimately all of us led to a lot
of chaos and decline and the abuse of authoritarian power.
So three years later, in nineteen eighty, Libyan troops intervened
in the civil war in northern Chad. This is where
the U s decides to insert itself, because it always does.

(11:59):
In nineteen eighty one, the Libyan army has a confrontation
with the US. The US shoots down to Libyan aircraft,
which it said challenged its warplanes over the Gulf of Certa,
which was claimed by Libya as its territorial water. In
nine four, a British policewoman was shot dead outside the
Libyan embassy in London while antich A Daffy protests were

(12:22):
taking place. Because of this, the UK breaks off diplomatic
relations with Libya entirely. But of course the United States
isn't finished yet. It never is. In nine six, the
US bombs Libyan military facilities as well as residential areas
of Tripoli and Benghazi, killing a hundred and one people.

(12:44):
They also bombed Goddaffi's house, which killed his adopted daughter.
The US said that these raids were in response to
the alleged Libyan involvement in the bombing of a Berlin
disco frequented by US military personnel. Just a small tangent
about the reported killing of Goaddaffi's adopted daughter, Hannah Goddaffi.
This has been something that's drawn quite the controversy over

(13:07):
the years. Apparently, Hannah may not have died, or the
adoption may have been posthumous, or he may have adopted
a second daughter and given her the same name after
the first one died. After the Goddaffi family residence, which
was in the bab at Aaiza compound and Tripoli, was
taken by rebels, The New York Times reported evidence, complete

(13:28):
with photographs, of Hannah's life after her declared death, when
she became a doctor and worked in a Tripoli hospital.
Her passport was reported as showing a birth date of
November eleven, making her six months old at the time
of the U S raid. In August afterwo thousand eleven,
the Daily Telegraph reported on the finding of dental records

(13:49):
relating to a Hannah Gaddaffi. This report, which also cites
a spotting of Henna by Chinese officials, cites an unnamed
Libyan government spokesman as stating that Gaddaffi had adopted a
second daughter and named her Hannah in honor of the
first one, who had been killed in the ninety six raid.
In September two thousand eleven, the claim that Hannah had

(14:10):
been killed in the six bombing was further disputed when
a video recorded in nine by Gaddaffi's cameraman Mohammad Adi,
was obtained by The Daily Telegraph. In the video, Roncadaffi
and other members of the Goddaffi family refer to her
by her name while playing football at a campsite. Hannah
is rumored to have fled to Algeria with her mother

(14:31):
and three siblings. That is some absurd shitt and I
wanted to bring it up because it's such a crazy
controversy that probably needs more digging into. But yeah, let's
go back to Libya now. As I mentioned in six,
the US bombed Libya and killed a hundred and one people,
and again the United States said that these raids were

(14:53):
in response to the alleged Libyan involvement in the bombing
of a Berlin disco frequented by US military personnel. This
will become important later on, but anyway, this takes us
to December and the Lockerbie plane bombing. Pan AM Flight
one oh three was a regularly scheduled pan Am transatlantic

(15:14):
flight from Frankfurt to Detroit via a stopover in London
and another stopover in New York City on the SPY one.
While the aircraft wasn't flight over the Scottish town of Lockerbie,
it was destroyed by a bomb that had been planted
on board, killing all two hundred and forty three passengers
and sixteen crew members and what became known as the

(15:36):
Lockerby bombing. Large sections of the aircraft crashed into a
residential street in Lockerbie, which killed eleven residents with a
total of two hundred and seventy fatalities. It is the
deadliest terrorist attack in the history of the United Kingdom.
This bombing, this terrorist attack will come into play later

(15:57):
similar to the Disco bombing. So it's very significant and
also just a terrible thing that happened. And I didn't
know about this being the deadliest terrorist attack in the
history of the UK. So just a good important history here.
So in nine nine, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and Martania and
Tunisia formed the Arab Mogreb Union or simply the Mograb

(16:20):
Union in an effort to promote cooperation and economic integration
in a common market. It is a political union and
economic union trade agreement aiming for economic and future political
unity among Arab countries and states that are located primarily
in the Mogreb in North Africa. It was envisioned initially
by mon Mugga Duffy as a superstate. The Magreb is

(16:43):
basically the name for Northwest Africa, which includes the western
part of North Africa and the Arab world. Following a
three year joint investigation of the Locker rebombing by the
FBI and the Dumfries and Galoway Constabulary a k a.
The territorial police force responsible for Dumfries in Galloway, Scotland
until April one, two thousand thirteen. After this joint investigation

(17:07):
with them in the FBI, arrest warrants were issued for
two Libyan nationals in November of nine. In response to this,
in Nino, the U N imposes sanctions on Libya in
an effort to force it's a handover for trial two
of its citizens that were suspected of involvement in the
Locker be bombing. One of whom of these people was

(17:27):
a government employee. More on this later as we go on.
In nine four, Libya returns the always was stripped to Chad,
which they had been occupying since nineteen seventy three. In
nine Godofi expels around thirty thousand Palestinians and protests of
the Oslo Accords between the Palestinian Liberation Organization the PLO

(17:50):
and Israel. A quick refresher here. There are two Osslo
accords that make up the Asslo Accords. The first also
accord was signed in Washington, the Sea, and the second
one was signed in Tabia, Egypt. They marked the start
of the Oslo Process, which was a supposed peace process

(18:10):
aimed at achieving a peace treaty based on Resolution two
forty two and Resolution three three eight of the United
Nations Security Council and fulfilling the quote right of the
Palestinian people to self determination. The Oslo Process began after
secret negotiations in Oslo, Norway, and resulted in both the
recognition of Israel by the PLO and the recognition by

(18:33):
Israel of the p l O as the representative of
the Palestinian people and as a partner in bilateral negotiations.
The vast majority of Arabs and Arab countries disagreed with
the Oslo Accords because they viewed it as defeat, as
a surrender. My mom explained to me that a lot
of Arrows didn't like or trust Yasid Artifact, who was

(18:54):
the PLO leader during the Oslo peace process. A lot
of people still don't like him to be and much
of this dislike stemmed from his signing of the Oslo Accords.
He died in two thousand and four at the age
of seventy. We'll talk more about good Daffi's relationship to
Artifact and how this changed after the Oslo Accords in

(19:14):
our next episode, but for now, I'm going to leave
you here. Have a have a good day. Goodbye, hello,

(19:37):
and welcome back. It could happen here. It's me again,
It's Sharene and we're going to continue our discussion of
Libya that we started yesterday. And um, yeah, I hope
it's been interesting and I hope it continues to be
interesting because I'm not going to stop. Okay, we left
off our last episode after we talked about the Aslo

(19:59):
Accords about how a lot of people distrusted and didn't
like Yasar Rat a fact, who was the PLO leader
during the Oslo Accords or the Oslo peace process. Rather
mom Mud Gaddaffi was one of those people what disagreed
with signing the accords because he viewed it as a surrender,
as a defeat, and because of this, Gaddaffi expelled around

(20:21):
thirty thousand Palestinians in protest at the Oslo Accords between
the p l O a k A the Palestinian Liberation
Organization in Israel. So I do think it's notable to
mention that before Oslo Gaddaffi was on good terms without
a fact. Out of fact, was on a plane and
route to Tunisia and he was accompanied by his bodyguards

(20:42):
and some assistants. The flight was scheduled to land in
the Karifa Oasis air fields southeast of Libya to refuel. However,
intense sandstorms impeded the vision of the pilots, who were
forced to adjust the flight route. One hour and forty
minutes after takeoff, the control tower in the Libyan capital
received the following message special flight to Khartoum to Tunists

(21:05):
cannot land, we fly on to Estada. We will attempt
an emergency landing. Five minutes later, the plane disappeared from
Libyan radar screens and wireless telecommunications were off. A state
of emergency was declared. International media outlets immediately reported that
out of Fats plane had disappeared in the Libyan desert.

(21:25):
For approximately fifteen hours. It was thought that the plane
had crashed and that out of Fat had died. It
turned out, however, that the plane hit a sand dune
in the Libyan desert and out of Fat was thrown
a distance of thirty meters. The two pilots and the
mechanic perished in this accident, and all the passengers were
found wounded but alive, including out of Fat. I bring

(21:48):
this up only to mention that I found a photo
of out of Fat recovering in a hospital after this crash,
covered in bandages, and Gaddafi is at his bedside. They're
even holding hands in the photo. But that didn't matter
to Gadaffi after OSLO, which he viewed again as a
sort of betrayal to the Arab world. So back to
when Gadaffi expels about thirty thousand Palestinians and protests of

(22:12):
Auti Fat signing the OSLO accords, Gaddafi urged other Arab
countries to follow his example and send home all Palestinians
to expose what he said was Israel's plan to create
a Palestinian state in name only. Speaking at a makeshift
camp in the desert near the border with Egypt, Ladafi
told a crowd of thousands that his expulsion of thousands

(22:35):
of Palestinians was the greatest service to the aims of
establishing a Palestinian homeland. In the speech, he said, the
Zionist plan is to create a Palestine without Palestinians, he said,
adding that other Arab countries are taking part in the
Zionist plan by allowing the Palestinians to stay in their land.

(22:55):
He very publicly criticized atifats signing of the accords with
Israel and handing over authority in the West Bank to
the Palestinian authority. His speech continued saying, overnight they told
us that Israel was no longer the enemy we knew,
they said the Palestinian cause was over. And because Libya
believes them, it has asked the Palestinians to return to

(23:17):
their home. So a little bit passive aggressive there, or
maybe are really aggressive nonetheless, he disagreed with also accords
and without effect, and a lot of other Arab countries
did also. In Gadaffi handed over the two Lockerbie suspects
for trial at campsized in the Netherlands after protracted negotiations

(23:38):
and UN sanctions. The UN sanctions were suspended and diplomatic
relations with the UK was restored after these suspects were
handed over for trial. In January two thousand and one,
the Netherlands finds one of the two Libyans accused of
the Lockerbie bombing and Marahi, guilty and sentences him to
life imprisonment. He was freed in two thousand nine on

(23:59):
compact I shouldn't release grounds before dying of cancer in
two thousand and twelve. The other suspect, Bahima, is found
not guilty and freed after the trial. In January two
thousand and two, Libya and the US say they held
talks to mend relations after years of hostility over what
the Americans termed as Libya's sponsorship of terrorism. A year later,

(24:21):
in January two thousand and three, Libya is elected chairman
of the UN Human Rights Commission, despite opposition from the
US and Human rights groups in August up to thousand
and three. Seven months after this, Gaddafi accepted responsibility for
the locker by bombing and a letter to the u
N Security Council and Libya signed a deal worth two
point seven billion dollars and paid compensation to the families

(24:44):
of the victims, although he maintained that he had never
given the order for the attack. Acceptance of responsibility was
part of a series of requirements laid out by UN
resolution for sactions against Libya to be lifted. Libya said
it had to accept responsibility due to Marati's status as
a government employee. In September two thousand and three, a

(25:05):
month later, the u N Security Council votes to lift sanctions,
and in December of that same year, Libya said it
will abandon programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. At
this point, Gaddaffi has been in power for many, many decades,
and similar to other dictators, he developed a cult of
personality and his pictures were seen all over the country

(25:27):
with his quotes. Remember the Green Book, Yes, that book.
He had been in power for so long and this
book was still distributed and praised, and he stayed in power.
Like most dictators do. In March up two thousand and four,
British Prime Minister Tony Blair visits Libya, and this is
the first such visit since nineteen forty three. Gaddafi was

(25:51):
clearly working on a return to respectability for Libya, and
in August after thousand and four, Libya agreed to pay
thirty five million dollars to compensate the victims of the
bombing in the Berlin nightclub in n We talked about
this briefly in our previous episode when I mentioned that
in eighty six the US bombed Libya and killed a
hundred and one people and said that these raids were

(26:13):
in response to the alleged Libyan involvement of this bombing
of a Berlin disco that was frequented by US military personnel.
Fast forwarding to where we currently are two thousand and four,
Libya has agreed to pay thirty five million to compensate
these victims. This is a good place to take our
first little break. Don't go anywhere, b RB. Okay, we're back.

(26:37):
We're now in January two thousand and five and Libya's
first auction of oil and gas exploration licenses heralds the
return of US energy companies for the first time in
more than twenty years. In February of two thousand and six,
at least ten people are killed in clashes with police
in Benghazi and part of a wave of international protests
by some Muslims who are angered by a Danish newspaper

(27:00):
risk cartoon depictions of the prophet Muhammad. Three months later,
in May two thousand and six, the US says it
is restoring full diplomatic ties with Libya, and in two
thousand and eight, a lot of things happen. In two
thousand and eight, first, Libya took over the one month
rotating presidency of the UN Security Council, marking a huge
step returning to respectability after decades as a pariah of

(27:23):
the West. Libya and the US also signed an agreement
committing each side to compensate all victims of bombing attacks
on the other citizens. Italian Prime Minister Sylvia Brosconi apologizes
to Libya for damage inflicted by Italy during the colonial era,
and they sign a five billion dollar investment deal by
way of compensation. U S Secretary of State canti Is

(27:46):
A Rice makes a historic visit in two thousand and eight,
the highest level US official to visit Libya since nineteen
fifty three. Rice says relations between the West and Libya
have entered quote a new phase. In February two thousand
and nine, Gadaffi is elected Chairman of the African Union
by leaders meeting in Ethiopia. He sets out the ambition

(28:07):
of the United States of Africa, even embracing the Caribbean.
In June of that year, a thousand and nine, Gaddafi
pays his first state visit to Italy, Libya's former colonial
ruler and trading partner. What a plot twist? Wow? Who
would have thought a century prior. In two thousand and ten,
Russia agrees to sell Libya weapons in a deal worth

(28:29):
one point eight billion dollars. The deal is thought to
include fighter jets, tanks, and air defense systems. The European
Union and Libya sign an agreement designed to slow illegal migration.
That same year, British oil company BP confirms it is
about to begin drilling off of the Libyan coast. In
two thousand eleven, you start to see the seeds of

(28:51):
an anti Gadaffi uprising, and Libyans rose up against the
rule of Gaddaffi. And many took up arms. You might
know that two thousand eleven more the beginning of many
Arab springs in many countries, including Libya, and I guess
this is also a good time to remind you that
Gaddafi was always a dictator and ruled with fear, as
dictators do. A lot happened in two thousand eleven. In February,

(29:15):
inspired by revolt in other Arab countries, especially neighbor in
Egypt and Tunisia, violent protests break out in Benghazi and
spread to other cities, leading to escalating clashes between security
forces and anti Goodaffi rebels. The government security forces responded
by opening fire on the protesters. As an initially peaceful
protest movement transformed into a fully fledged armed uprising against

(29:38):
his forty two year rule. Gaddafi pledged to chase down
the cock roaches and the rats who had taken up
arms against him quote inch by inch, room by room,
home by home, alleyway by alleyway, person by person. A
brutal conflict began, with pro Gaddafi forces and discriminately showing
civilian areas, arresting thousands of protests, ers and other suspective

(30:01):
of supporting the opposition, holding many in secret attention and
carrying out summary executions. In March two eleven, the U
N Security Council authorizes a no fly zone over Libya
and air strikes to protect civilians, over which NATO assumes command.
In the months that follow, Libyan rebels initially captured territory,
but are then forced back by better armed pro Gadaffi forces.

(30:24):
In July, the International Contact Group on Libya formally recognizes
the main opposition group, the National Transitional Council of the NTC,
as the legitimate government of Libya. In August of thousand eleven,
Gaddafi goes into hiding after rebels swarm into his fortress
compound in Tripoli. Let's take our second break here and

(30:45):
we'll come back and talk more of what happened in
thousand eleven, because it seems like it's the year that
never ended, b RB, and we're back. So as I
mentioned before the break in August, at two thousand eleven,
Gaddaffi went into hiding after the bubbles swarmed his fortress
compound in Tripoli. In September, the African Union joins sixty

(31:05):
countries which have recognized the NTC as the new Libyan authority.
On October two thousand eleven, Gaddaffi is captured and killed
as rebel fighters take his hometown of Serta after air
burst bombs are fired from a NATO warplane, considerating dozens
of Goadaffi fighters. Gaddaffi and other survivors are nearby a

(31:26):
walled villa compound and soon thereafter they try to escape
through the fields and two drainage pipes underneath a major
road nearby. That is where the mus Rata military has
found them. Musurata is a city in Libya, by the way.
When militia fighters found good Daffi in his inner circle
hiding next to the drainage pipes, one of his bodyguards

(31:47):
threw a hand grenade at them, and this hand grenade
bounced off the concrete wall and exploded in the midst
of the leadership circle, killing Gaddaffi's defense minister of Ubucca Unus. Yes,
actually happened. You had to have been there. This explosion
sprayed shrapnel that wounded Gaddaffi and others, according to the
survivors of the incident whom the Human Rights Watch interviewed.

(32:10):
Gaddafi was immediately set upon by mus Rata fighters, who
literally wounded him with a bayonet in his butt and
then began pummeling him with kicks and blows. By the
time Gaddaffi was loaded into an ambulance and transported to Musrata,
his body appeared lifeless. It remains unclear whether he died
from this violence, the shrapnel wounds, or from being shot

(32:31):
later as some have claimed. Ultimately he died is the point.
In that same morning of October, ms Ratta militia members
separately apprehended mon Adoffi's son, must to him he was
in charge of the military defensive Surta and had led
the doomed convoy, and he tried to flee from the
scene of the fighting. Three days later, the NTC declared

(32:52):
Libya to be officially liberated and the announced plans to
hold elections within eight months. November thousand eleven, Saifa Islam,
the fugitive son of former Libyan leader ron Moodgadafi, is captured,
becoming the last key Gadaffi family member to be seized
or killed. Between January and March of two thousand and twelve,

(33:13):
clashes erupt between former rebel forces in Benghazi in a
sign of discontent with the NTC. The NTC again stands
for a National Transitional Council, so when Ghazi based NTC
officials campaign to re establish autonomy for the region, further
increasing tension with the NTC in Tripoli. In August, this
transitional government hands power to the General National Congress, which

(33:36):
was elected in July. There's still significant unrest amongst civilians
during this time in regards to a net leadership, and
in February, protests erupt in response to the General National
Congress's refusal to disband after they decided upon mandate expires.
In May, the Libyan National Army renegade General Khalifa Hafta

(33:58):
launches a military assault that includes air strikes against militant
Islamist groups in Benghazi, and he tries to seize the
parliament building, accusing the Prime minister at the time, Prime
Minister Ahmed ma Teg, of being in thrall to Islamist groups.
In June, Prime Minister mateg resigns after the Supreme Court
rules his appointment illegal. A new parliament is chosen in elections,

(34:21):
but the election is marred by a low turnout attributed
to security fears and boycotts and the Islamists suffer heavy defeat.
Fighting breaks out between forces loyal to the outgoing g
n C and a new parliament. In July, the u
N staff pulls out and the embassy shut down and
foreigners are evacuated as the security situation deteriorates. Among all

(34:46):
of this fighting, the Tripoli International Airport is also largely destroyed.
Unsat As Shadiawa, which was a Solifus Islamist militia and
al Qaeda aligned group that advocated for the implementation of
sharia law across Libya see his control of most of
Benghazi at this time. Later that year, in October, the
u went on boy to Libya. Bernardina Leone proposed a

(35:09):
National Unity government for Libya, and this new government was
to be led by the Presidential Council of fayez As
Sattage as prime Minister and three deputies from the country's eastern,
Western and southern regions, as well as two ministers. UN
Security General ben key Moon visits Libya during this time
to continue the u N broker talks between the new

(35:31):
parliament and the government based in Tarbuk and Islamis Libya
DA Militia's holding Tripoli. The UN says that hundreds of
thousands of civilians are displaced by these clashes and this
takes us to but I think we're going to stop
for today because a lot happens in and Uh, I'd
rather not split it up into two episodes. So that's

(35:53):
where I'm going to leave you guys for today, and
UH you'll hear me tomorrow if you want to Foodbye, Hello,

(36:16):
and welcome back to It could happen here. You are
listening to Sharne and our last installment of our Little
Libya series. We're just gonna jump right back in. Our
last episode ended off in and Libya when the U
N Security General Van Ki Moon visited Libya to continue
U N broker talks between the new parliament that was

(36:39):
assigned and the government based in Torbrook and the Islamist
Libya DON militias that were holding Tripoli at this time.
The UN says that hundreds of thousands of civilians have
been displaced by clashes. The Islamic State extremist militia then
seizes control of the port of Journa and eastern Libya
in January of the Libyan army and Tripoli based Militia

(37:01):
Alliance declare a partial ceasefire after U N sponsored talks
in Geneva. In February of Egyptian jets bomb Islamic State
targets in Derna. A day after the group they're released
a video showing the beheading of twenty one Egyptian Christians.
The Libyan army offensive to retake Derna in March of
that year fails to dislodge the group. The Islamic State

(37:25):
establishes control over the poort city of Certa, which is
halfway along the coast between Tripoli and Benghazi. In July,
a TRIPLEI court sentences Gaddaffi's son say And Islam and
eight other former officials to death for the crimes committed
during the twenty eleven uprising against his father. He is
later freed by an armed group. In January, the UN

(37:48):
announces a new Tunisia based interim government, but neither Tobruck
nor Tripoli parliaments agree to recognize its authority. Libyan politician
Fayez Sarage is now the Chairman of the Presidential Council
of Libya and Prime Minister of the Government of National Accord.
The Islamic State group attacks Rasla Nuth oil terminal and

(38:10):
threatens to move on to Brega and Towbrook. In September
of sixteen, the Libyan National Army of Ralifa Haftad, who
was described as a renegade general, seizes key oil export
terminals in East Libya. Haftad is a Libyan American politician,
military officer, and the commander of a Towbrook based Libyan

(38:30):
National Army. A year and a half prior, on March second,
he was appointed commander of the armed forces loyal to
the elected legislative body, the Libyan House of Representatives. In
December of pro government forces oust Islamic State militants from
the coastal town of Surta, which they had seized eighteen

(38:52):
months previously. In July seventeen, the Islamic State is ejected
from Benghazi after three years of fighting. A year later,
in July, Khalifa Hadad claims that his forces are fully
in control of Derna, the last Islamic stronghold in the
East and the only city in the region thus far
outside his control. In April of twenty nineteen, weh DoD,

(39:15):
a Libyan National Army, advances on Tripoli, sparking clashes with
the forces of the internationally recognized Government of National Accord.
In June of the u N back government drives forces
out of Tarhuna, which was their last stronghold in the
west of the country near Tripoli. At this point, Fayezes
Saage had been Prime Minister of the Government of National

(39:37):
Accord since its installment in as part of a u
N led political agreement. Fighting was occurring between saage loyalists
and those who opposed him, and Satage stated that he
would be stepping down from his position by the end
of October of This came after a month of protests
in Tripoli. On October thirty one, however, Al Sadaj rescinded

(40:01):
his decision to resign, but after the Libyan Political Dialogue Forum,
he transferred his powers. On March fifteenth of one, so
in marshaw One Abduhmi and Biba took over as prime
Minister of the g n A the u N backed
Government of National Accord in Tripoli. In the Libyan Political
Dialogue Forum procedure for choosing a unified executive authority to

(40:25):
lead into the December twenty one Libyan general election, Muhammad
and Menphi ran on a joint ticket with abdud Hamiddiba
as Prime Minister and Mussa Elkoni and Abdula Lafi as
members of the Presidential Council. As Menphee serves as head
of State. Human Rights Watch reported that hundreds of residents
in the Libyan town of Tahuna were abducted or reported

(40:48):
missing between ten and twenty twenty after the local Elkanni
militia known as the Kenayette, took control of the town.
In residents reported that the militia off and abducted, detained, tortured, killed,
and disappeared people who opposed them or were suspected of
doing so. Some said that the militia also sees private

(41:09):
property and stole their money. After the armed conflict. In June,
there was a discovery of mass graves in the town
of Tarhuna. Libyan authorities said they had retrieved more than
two hundred bodies from more than five hundred and fifty
five mass graves as of October of last year. Additionally,
as of October of last year, the International Organization for

(41:32):
Migration the IOM, estimated there were almost four hundred thousand
internally displaced people in Libya. Including three hundred thousand people
displaced since the beginning of the April twenty nineteen conflict
in Tripoli and the surrounding areas. The displaced include many
of the forty eight thousand former residents of the town
of who in eleven were driven out by armed groups

(41:54):
predominantly from z Rata because of their support for the
former Baffy government. The spite reconciliation agreements with ms RATA authorities,
They have been deterred from returning by the massive and
deliberate destruction of the town and infrastructure between twenty seventeen,
predominantly by malicious from ms RATA, and the scarcity of
public services by the g n A. To describe the

(42:17):
election process in Libya as a clusterfunk would be an understatement,
and as far as the most recent election or the
attempt for the most recent election in various postponements have
resulted from disputes about fundamental rules governing the election, including
the voting timetable, the eligibility of the main candidates, and

(42:39):
the eventual powers of the next president and the parliament.
Its registration for the presidential candidates opened on November seventh
of last year and lasted until November. In this time,
several people registered their candidacy, including Zarifa Eslam Cal Daffi,
the son of the former Libyan leader Momma Daffy, so

(43:00):
Lifa Hafta, the commander of the Libyan National Army at
F nine, the chairman of the La Libya party, and
the current Prime Minister of Hamid de Baba. These men
all register their candidacy in November of last year, and
in total, ninety six men and two women registered as candidates.
A preliminary list of seventy three presidential candidates was released

(43:22):
by the h n e C the High National Election
Commission on November. Five candidates were disqualified from the election,
including study for the La Daffy and a bunch of
others that I'm not going to say their names because
I haven't said them yet and you don't need to know,
but ultimately, Ladafi and a bunch of other people were
disqualified under Article ten seven of the Electoral Law for

(43:46):
having been convicted of a crime. Daffi was also disqualified
under Article seve for not providing a certificate showing a
clean criminal record. Another candidate, Zeidan, was disqualified under Article
ten and two for having more than one nationality and
under Article eleven for not having five thousand supporters. According

(44:07):
to the electoral law, any appeals against the disqualifications are
to be decided by the judiciary. On November twenty eight,
the Tripoli Appeals Court rejected the candidacy of current Prime
Minister of de Haney Debaba after accepting two appeals against
his bid. The first appeal was filed by three presidential
candidates as well as to Libyan Political Dialogue Forum members,

(44:30):
while the second appeal was filed by presidential candidate Fatty Basha.
On November thirty, Libyan Field Marshal a k a renegade
General Khalifa haf Dad was disqualified from the presidential election.
After these, a we A Court of First Instance accepted
an appeal against his candidacy. On December one, four candidates

(44:51):
were disqualified by the h n EC, including Debiba, and
they were placed back on the ballot by a Tripoli
a Court of National Appeal. December two, Sayf and sm
Go Daffy was placed back on the ballot after the
subad Court of Appeal accepted his appeal against his qualification
from the list of candidates. See clusterfuck understatement, and then

(45:13):
on December six, Kadifata returned to the presidential election after
the Tripoli Court of Appeal rejected in November thirty ruling
by the Lower Zawea Court. Let's take our first break
for the love of God h B r B and
we're back. And I don't believe in God, but anyway.
Days before the first round was scheduled to take place,

(45:35):
the election was already up in the air, with no
official list of candidates presented to the public and no
formal campaigning underway. On December twenty two, the Parliament of
Libya confirmed the postponement. The chairman of the Election committee said,
after consulting the technical, judicial and security reports, we inform
you of the impossibility of holding the elections on the

(45:57):
day of providing for by the electoral law, and in
this statement he didn't give a new date. Foreign Policy
summarized that the causes for the delay were that quote,
the process was beleaguered by two interrelated issues, differences over
the idea of holding a presidential election in the current
context and the resulting failure to reach the required consensus

(46:20):
on a framework for elections. The United Kingdom, France Germany,
Italy and the United States urged Libya to set a
new date for the delayed presidential election quickly. The h
n e C insisted that the House of Representatives is
responsible for setting a new date. The Speaker of the
House Representatives said the Election Committee responsible for overseeing elections

(46:42):
must set a definitive date for postponed presidential and legislative
polls by the end of January of two, like several
months ago. The UN Special Advisor on Libya, Stephanie Williams,
who has pursued a new election date, told the AP
that it was still quote very reasonable and possible for
the country's two point eight million voters to cast their

(47:04):
ballots by June of two, which would be in line
with the U N brokered roadmap. On January twenty three, two,
Interim Prime Minister Abdul Debaba called for constitution to be
established before holding the delayed presidential and parliamentary elections. A
month later, on February two, Debaba announced a plan to

(47:25):
hold the elections in June of two. He later proposed
holding the elections at the end of two so he
just keeps on postponing it, because why not. You're in power.
You don't want to give it up. Sure. In July
of twenty two, the prime Minister, the interim Prime Minister
Abiba made an unexpected alliance with his former enemy, the

(47:48):
Eastern warlord renegade general Hadifa haf Dad, in a bid
to cement a fragile ceasefire and end a month long
oil blockade. Less than three years ago, half Dad self
dialed Libyan National Army besieged Trivioli in a failed attempt
to capture the capital. But in this unexpected alliance, in
a highly symbolic gesture, the Libyan National Army's Chief of

(48:12):
Staff At Naduti, was invited to visit the city for talks.
The prospect of de Baiba and haf Dad varying their
differences was really welcomed by the u N as it
was struggling to maintain a ceasefire that had ended a
previous six year civil war in However, barely a month
later after this extended reconciliation, supposedly on August this year,

(48:38):
deadly clashes occurred in Libya's capital between militias backed by
two rival administrations pretending to a return to violence amid
a long political stalemate In these clashes, at least twenty
three people were killed and more than a hundred and
forty people were wounded in the fighting. According to the
Health Ministry, six hospitals were hit and ambulances were unable

(48:59):
to reach area affected by the clashes. And the ministry
said that these effectively are war crimes and they condemned
these actions. The escalation threatens to shatter the relative calm,
relative calm taken out with a grain of salt, whatever
you want that to mean, Libya has had for most
of the past two years. As we know after listening

(49:19):
to me talking for all of these millions of minutes,
Libya was sent into chaos after and NATO backed uprising
that toppled and killed long time autocrat Rond Goaddaffi in
Obviously Gadaffi was also bad, not saying that, but if
things were or to chaotic during good Daffi and before Gaddaffi,

(49:41):
taking him out in the way that he was taken
out only led to more chaos, So the instability only
got worse. The clashes that are happening pitted the Tripoli
Revolutionaries Brigade militia led by hathum To Judy against another
militia allied with Abda Rani, who was an in famous
war lord known as Raniwa. This is according to local media.

(50:04):
Prime Minister Debaba's government, which is based in Tripoli, claimed
that the clashes broke out when one militia fired at another.
The fighting, however, as highly likely part of an ongoing
power struggle between INTERIMPM Debaba and his rival, Prime Minister
Fati Bashaka, who is operating from the coast city of Surta.

(50:26):
Both Baiba and Bashaka are backed by militias, and the
latter was mobilizing in recent weeks to try to enter
Tripoli to dislodge his rival. An attempt in May by
Bashaka to install his government in Tripoli triggered clashes that
ended with his withdrawal from the capital. The US Ambassador
to Libya, Richard Norland, urged for de escalation before quote

(50:47):
things get worse, and he also urged for the Libyan
parties to agree on an early date for elections. Prime
Minister to Baba's hold on power is very precarious. In
July of this year, protests erupted in nine cities against
corruption and power cuts. Debba was originally installed again as
a temporary prime minister to run the country until the

(51:09):
elections were due last December, but he hasn't given up
that power because power is a disease, and when those
elections were canceled amid constitutional arguments, he obviously decided to
stay in power. And this is despite Libya's parliament demanding
that he stepped down. So, as we've learned in this

(51:29):
brief history of this country, Libya has been racked with
internal divisions and instrument civil war conflict since the armed
uprising of eleven of the longtime dictator La Daffi, and
while international efforts to bring rival administrations together in a
unity government succeeded in early this only created a fragile piece.

(51:51):
The proliferation of weapons and autonomous militias, flourishing criminal networks,
the interference of regional powers, and the presence of extremist
groups have all contributed to the country's persistent lack of
physical security. More than a decade of violence has displaced
hundreds of thousands of people, and human rights conditions have
steadily deteriorated. The ceasefire I mentioned earlier was due to

(52:15):
an occurrence in sixteen when forces loyal to Ralife Rail
attempted Akutata against fayaz As Sage and the Presidential Council
of the g NA. So in the Joint Libby and
Military Commission that represented the l n A and the
g n A, they reached a permanent ceasefire agreement in
all areas of Libya. The agreement was effective immediately and

(52:39):
it required that all foreign fighters leave Libya within three months,
while a joint police force would patrol disputed areas, and
the first commercial flight between Tripoli and Benghazi took place
that same day. On March tenth, and Interimmunity Government was
formed and it was slated to be in power as
we know until the president election. But it's still in

(53:01):
power now. So when when I'm talking about those peaceful
quote unquote two years, I'm talking about this time between
this permanent ceasefire in and now. And despite improvements following
the ceasefire that was broken in October of political and
military violence has remained common. Human rights violations are widespread

(53:24):
and this includes unlawful killings and forced disappearances and arbitrary detentions.
These conditions are further affected by the presence of various
armed groups thousands of foreign mercenaries, a large migrant population
and mass internal displacement, and so Libya has been in
a tumultuous state since the start of the Arab Spring

(53:45):
related the Libyan Crisis. Of the crisis resulted in the
collapse of the Libyan Arab Dheria and the killing of
Rommdga Daffi amidst the First Civil War of Libya and
the foreign military intervention. The crisis was deepened by the
fact sal violence in the aftermath at the First Civil War,
and this resulted in the outbreak of the second Civil
War that happened in the Control over the country is

(54:08):
currently split between the House Representatives in Towbrook and the
Government of National Unity in Tripoli and their respective supporters,
as well as various jihaddest groups and tribal elements controlling
parts of the country. And as we've learned, the violent
protests are continuing to go on today and the country
remains in a state of unrest to say the least.

(54:31):
But I think this information is a good foundation to
serve as a starting point if we talk about Libya
going forward to really understand how this country came to
be so unstable, because like most countries that are experiencing upheaval.
It's usually because of a lot of different powers buying

(54:53):
for control, international powers intervening, and just a lot of
cluster fucking stuff that results in cluster fuck enus. So, Um,
that's where we're going to end for today. I hope
this was informative and I hope you appreciate some of
the history. I definitely do. So. Yeah, until next time,

(55:14):
go drink some water and stay hydrated and go head
a dog. You should never say how I mistook one part.

(55:38):
You can send those on a recording, rubbit. It's okay.
It's with a president, so we can't be there. M
you shouldn't have done. That's Jimmy Cotton, dude. Well he's
never recovered, man. Yeah, you can see it in his
eyes when he tried to rebuild those houses. Welcome to
It could happen here the podcast where one of us
committed a crime against Jimmy Carter, former president of the

(56:01):
United States. Um, that might actually get us in trouble
with the Secret Service, but you know what it's happening.
It's happening, James. Well, they're gonna have to figure out
which one it was. Yes, and that of course, second
voice James Stout, who might wind up in Guantanamo for
this because he's he's not a US citizen. But I

(56:22):
feel pretty safe, and I feel like our guest for
today is pretty safe. And I would like to introduce
Stephen Manicelli. Uh. Stephen, you work for and are an
editor at Protein Magazine. You've written for The Rolling Stone,
You've written for a bunch of people, Dallas Voice, a
number of different UM news websites, magazines, and you have

(56:45):
been spending a big chunk of the last year or
so in the streets in Dallas reporting on the escalating
series of well, hopefully not escalating. I guess time will
tell on that. But the series of right winging UM,
I don't even want to I don't want to dignify
them by calling them protests, but like right wing organized

(57:06):
attempts to intimidate UH and spark violence at LGBT events
in the DFW area, and some of the left wing
protest counter against that, which has involved groups like the
elm Fork John Brown Gun Club, who we've had on
the show a few times, and has involved groups of
armed leftists kind of UM in opposition to groups of

(57:28):
armed right wingers. UM. Now, Stephen, the specific reason we're
talking today is you were just the other day part
of a panel put on by the Cato Institute, which
is a libertarian think tank, titled Domestic Extremism and Political
Violence the Threat to Liberty UM. Your fellow panelists were
Mike German Mike is a former FBI agent who went

(57:51):
undercover against the far right UM and now works for
the Brennan Center. And Christopher Wiles, who is a professor
of English and a director of American Studies at the
Universe City of Connecticut and wrote the u s Anti
Fascism Reader. UM. Now, this was interesting for a number
of reasons. Kind of in the lead up to this event,
the kate I Institute published a graphic that showed a

(58:11):
number of domestic armed organizations UM. And so in the
same graphic you had groups like the Proud Boys and
Patriot Front, as well as groups like Yellow Peril Tactical
and the ELM Fork, John Brown Gun Club and the
Socialist Rifle Association. Prior to the event, this sparked a
bit of frustration from the left and some people suspecting

(58:32):
that this was going to be kind of geared towards
attacking left wing armed groups and smearing them, you know,
as violent extremists in the same way that the Proud
Boys are. Uh, that is not what happened. Um, And
I'm gonna open the floor up to you, Stephen, thank
you for being on the show. Hey, thanks for having me.
And I'm glad that this is not sort of a
critic criticism session that I'm gonna be sitting with y'all

(58:56):
on In terms of yeah, my participation with a I
hestitate to even use the word libertarian because of the
historical definition of the term, but you know, conservative libertarian whatever,
big L versus small L. I don't. Yeah, we could
call them a right libertarian think to their rough bodies,
right like literally founded by rough body. Yeah, they love

(59:19):
them some Rothbard. Um didn't they like excommunicate him or
something though? At Okay, I couldn't. I don't. I'm not
deep on the lower one thing. If you're doing my
favorite meme with the two hands meeting in the middle middle,
left libertarians and right libertarians have excommunicating members. Murray Rothbart

(59:45):
is on an isle exile Murray Rothbart and Mary Books
and united and cancelation. So yeah, I guess I'm not
being canceled, which is is good UM. And so yeah,
they had reached out to me in stept Timber about
being on this panel, and they had mentioned UM the
other guests, and frankly I was intrigued because you know,

(01:00:07):
if people want to pay attention to the growing threat
of fascism, I think that's pretty neat. And it seemed
like an opportunity to do the thing that Glenn Greenwald
claims that he does when he goes on Tucker Carlson,
which is like reaching out to an audience that doesn't
already agree with the things that I think UM, because

(01:00:28):
he just goes on because their pals and they already
all agree. So UM, I digress. I thought it was
maybe an interesting forum and and I was really interested
to hear UM from the other panelists, in particular UM
because I had looked at what Mike German had written
after his service in UM the FBI and as well

(01:00:50):
as the author of the Anti Fascist Handbook, and I thought, well,
if if Kato has invited all three of us, it's
it's not gonna go too off the rails and terms
of UM, you know, sort of the false equivalency problems
or it just becoming a session to bash on groups
that aren't really the part of the problem. Interestingly enough,

(01:01:10):
the primary amount of bashing that went on was Mike German,
former f by FBI h repeatedly viciously criticizing the police
and the FBI for their complicity with far right street movements. Yeah,
Mike's been pretty consistent, I spoken for like a couple
of years, and I'm sure you people are probably aware
of his presence by now, but he's been pretty consistent

(01:01:31):
on bashing defense for failing to act on white supremacy
for decades. And it's very It's there's a number of
reasons this is interesting that we'll we'll be getting back into,
but I really do recommend people take a listen to
this conversation between y'all. Among other things, there's there's some
good history in there. We'll talk about a couple of
things that got introduced that I don't ad percent agree with.

(01:01:54):
That there's some good history in there, and I think
more to the point, you get a lot of updates
from your report in Dallas and a lot of kind
of summaries of that which I find very valuable and
think will be valuable to people who have maybe been
following it less. And then also it's really interesting to
get Mike's perspective as someone he was in It was
late eighties, early nineties, he was doing a lot of

(01:02:14):
undercover stuff on the West Coast and neo Nazi movements. UM,
and so hearing him discuss the way in which the
FBI s programs targeted at the far right work and
don't work was really interesting to me. Oh. Absolutely, that
was the sort of the side of the story that
I knew the least about. UM. Christopher Viles, the professor,

(01:02:37):
the guy who wrote the handbook, UM, you know, I
think he provided a very important set of historical information
that kind of helped iron out some of the issues
in terms of the framing craps. Yes, and some of
the inconsistencies which I think we can dive into a
little bit, or rather inaccuracies that kind of got slipped
by UM and we weren't really able to address in

(01:02:59):
the course of the conversation. But hearing him just put
it so bluntly kind of took the wind out of
me in a good way where I was like, I
don't I don't have anything else to add here, No, notes,
um because he really made the point that yes, some
of these organizations were cannon glove with police officers at

(01:03:20):
the local level, even at the federal level. He's witnessed it.
He has a number of experiences that he cited where
the FBI is basically saying, uh, do not talk about
your case is involving white supremacists and these similar type
of groups, because there are people in the agency who
are sympathetic. Um And I think that's kind of why

(01:03:43):
I ended up on the panel because in part the
story that I've been covering around here with this harassment
campaign over the past few months of lgbt Q groups
and events, part of the story is that policing has
not really done anything to prevent uh you know, this
incitement and harassment from continuing and occasionally turning violent. Not

(01:04:09):
in the sense of weapons being used other than bear
me so far, but in the sense the physical violence
and uh you know, slurs and violent threats being hurled
at people. UM. So, I I think that Mike's points
for really timely and well said, and frankly, he's the
kind of person that they needed to come from because

(01:04:31):
otherwise they just kind of get smacked away as leftist
talking point by people who probably have some internal biases
or prejudices, prejudices that prevent them from engaging with it
when it comes from the wrong person in the wrong way.
And there were a number of interesting kind of discussions happening.

(01:04:52):
One of the thing that I was happy about is that, well,
the initial framing, I think there was a lot of
fear that all of these left wing groups, we're going
to get lumped in with groups that have, to put
it bluntly, tried to overthrow democracy. Um. Right, we should
point out that that's how the FBI does do it, right,
like they for instance, the group white supremacists with like

(01:05:15):
black identity groups, is racial identity extremists or statistics that
way like that, That's that's how the FEDS see this.
But yeah, they didn't, which is which is good. It's
like a form of obfuscation to do so. And um,
you know, why would they do that. Well, maybe there's
a few reasons they might do that, especially if you
ask someone like Mike um, and you know, it's such

(01:05:38):
a blind spot for obvious the ideological reasons for so
many people involved. Yeah, and it's it's Um, it was
interesting because there was this bit in the middle of
it where Mike, you know, being a former fed, walked
through kind of like, well, it makes sense to me,
given the fact that law enforcement is not able to

(01:06:00):
be trusted in a lot of instances and often is
working hand in glove with these far right groups that
want to harm marginalize people, that they would seek to
arm themselves. Um. And that prompted from the the fellow
who was actually um kind of the organizing the the event,
Patrick Eddington, who's a senior fellow at the Cato Institute,

(01:06:23):
him to point out and he was I would have
to say broadly fair um. And generally he seemed a
little bit kind of um uh. He he had this
attitude you all, you get sometimes around libertarians where he
was like there was a moment where he was like, well,
I'm glad some on the left to finally started accepting
the Second Amendments and stuff like that. Um. But but

(01:06:44):
he had a he had a moment where he expressed
a concern, UM, which was his fear about the possibility
that if you keep having these events, at some point
you're going to have two groups of people who are
armed shoot at each other, um, which is we have.
We've been right up to that line. You have had

(01:07:05):
exchanges of fire, just thinking. In Portland, you had a
moment where as a single right wing individual with a
handgun fired into a group of people, thankfully didn't hit
any two people in the anti fascist side fired back
and forced him to flee. Um, you had a moment
earlier this year in Portland where a right winger shot

(01:07:26):
into a group of unarmed people doing traffic security, killed
a sixty one year old woman, wounded I think five
other people, and then was shot and stopped by a leftist. Um,
you obviously had Um a proud boy while a member
of Patriot Prayer shot and killed during an altercation, but

(01:07:47):
not an exchange of fire. The only person who fired
was the person who killed that that individual. So none
of those are quite two groups of people with guns
exchanging fire, you know, in a sustained way. Uh, none
of those even entirely approached kind of what happened at
like Greensville. But they're all on that spectrum. And while
I think this guy there's a degree to which he's

(01:08:10):
kind of spooked at seeing leftists with guns, I do
think that that's a reasonable thing to be concerned with
because when and if we hit that point, it's going
to be an inflection moment for I think the entire country,
right right. I think the reality is that most normal people,
whatever you want to use the word to describe them,

(01:08:31):
people aren't brain poisoned and plugged into the internet and
about all these things or or having to deal with
them and are affected by them in real life. They
might see these groups and just cast them all under
the same umbrella. You know, there's a good meme I
chuckled at that came out afterwards, where it had had
the slide showing on all of the groups, the right

(01:08:53):
wing groups and the left and groups sort of armed
groups in you know, the United States, and then replacing
them all with just domestic cleaning products. Like, yes, they
all have something in common. They have weapons, and they're
armed to some degree, but beyond that, they all have
distinctions and we shouldn't drawn equivalency. And I think, you know,

(01:09:15):
Mike did a very elegant job of drawing that distinctionaries
as these people not only have a right to defend themselves,
but they probably have a good reason to given all
of these things. He was basically writing the lyrics to
rage against the Machine song, and um, I was a
little astonished by that, and he made a very clear

(01:09:37):
point to say, like, yeah, there are people who are
aggressors and there are people who aren't. We can find
a distinction in that. And if we're just now getting
concerned about this violence, well maybe we should ask why
we've had such a big blind spot for so long.
And he got right to the core of it. It's
these ideologies deeply baked into our institutions of white supremacist

(01:09:58):
right supremacy, uh, basically all the way back to colonization,
and you know, dealing with that is necessary for us
to deal with the broader problem. And I think he
was very clear to say, like the things that were
required to get to that point of like a potential

(01:10:18):
shootout would be a total breakdown in policing. And so
he played place the blame at the feet of the police,
practically said it's their goddamn fault that people feel the
need to do this, because if they just focused on
the crimes that Proud Boys commit in the Dallas area, uh,
you know, basically minor assaults and stuff, they would trace

(01:10:42):
it back to the people that are committing them, and
they would cut down on these escalations because the same
people are the ones that show up to these events
time and time again. It's worth rub you talk about
like an inflection point, right, and and we spoke about
like failures in policing too. I think part off there
reason that we see things are super duper exceptional right

(01:11:03):
now is the way that we teach history in schools here.
And part of the things we don't teach are like
that this has happened before, right, like the Battle of
Hayes Pond being a paramount example. If we look at
the like the standoff at Wounded Knee or the second
Battle of Wounded Knee, or whatever you want to call it,
and throughout the civil rights movement, right there's a book
by Rob Williams about a contemporary book about the use

(01:11:27):
of firearms in the Civil rights movement that people can
read like all of this stuff did happen then. And
this same tension that we're feeling now about like a
society putting itself apart and when it leads to a
civil war also happened then and people felt this then
two and we we well, the progress was made at
that time. We didn't fix everything, right, like that's why

(01:11:47):
we're having this discussion now. But like, I think the
fact that we've removed so much of the specifically the
violence and the use of guns from our discussion with
the civil rights movement sometimes leads us to see what's
happening now was like really particularly exceptional, and it's not like, yeah,
it's always been the case of marginalized folks that have
resorted to the same tools that he used to oppress

(01:12:10):
them to defend themselves. And why wouldn't they write, like
like Mike said, like Steve said, there's a very good
and clear reason for oppressed people to want to defend
themselves in their communities. The only analog that we were
able to bring up in the conversation is like the
pink pink panthers, pink panthers, which was, you know, something

(01:12:30):
that a lot of people don't know about, And we
did get a little bit of opportunity to discuss, you know,
the black panthers and how community defense is a different
set of reasons for arming yourself and having knowledge of
the Second Amendment and all those sorts of things. Then
you know, going outside an event hosted by an organization

(01:12:50):
you have no interest in belonging to wearing your guns
on your body to send a message. That's a very
menacing form of free speed. And I think another good
moment to bring up when we talk about this would
be the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, which was a
series of race riots targeting black people in the United
States that also involved large groups and communities, particularly in cities,

(01:13:15):
of Black Americans taking up arms and defending themselves. Um
and and was fairly enormous, and it's deftyal hundreds and
hundreds of people were killed. Um It's it's really a
pretty nightmarish moment in history. But it's the thing when
you have groups and we're about to have someone on
from from Yellow Parel tactical, when you have groups that
are specifically organizing and saying like we are organizing, we

(01:13:37):
are teaching skills for people to become armed because we
are afraid that we and people like us will be victimized.
It's stuff like the Red Summer that they're directly looking at.
It's not theoretical, you know. Yeah, you're Frank carl Um
from Arranged TV have some good videos about a lot
of these different things. If people are interested in looking
them up. Yeah, um, and I think probably we should

(01:14:01):
bring on our next guest for tonight. Uh and and
Stephen will be staying on as well. Snow from Yellow
Peril Tactical. Snow, do you want to introduce yourself and
your organization for folks who may not be as as
familiar with the stuff as we are. We we briefly
covered y'all a little bit earlier in this but yeah,

(01:14:21):
thanks for having me. My name is Snow. My pronouns
the sheet or they, and I am one of the
many members of Yellow Peril Tactical. We are a collective
of leftist Asian Americans under the shared ideology of being
anti authoritarian. Um. And we talk about all sorts of things,

(01:14:44):
but particularly how to develop firearms skills and also community
defense and the occasional ship post and Uh. First questions,
because we're talking about this Cato Institute things that Stephen
was on. Have you had a chance to listen to
that yet since y'all watched it twice and I have
or paid notes? Yeah? Yeah, why why don't we start here? Yeah?

(01:15:08):
Go off? You know, Okay, Like the chat was lit.
When we first saw that we were mentioned, we were like, Wow,
we fucking made it because originally we started as a
ship post account and then we were like, oh, people
actually care, um, And this is just one of those
moments where, uh, I don't know, it felt like really

(01:15:30):
surreal that Kato would even give a funk about us,
because we do all of this in our free time.
You know, this is like nobody pays us right, um.
And so we had a lot of skepticism going into it, um.
And in a sense, uh, we're a bit on the
defensive kind of preparing for a lot of false equivalent

(01:15:54):
rhetoric um and a lot of just like I don't know,
maybe like orientalism as we all um, just given the
history of how like Westerners have viewed Asian culture um.
But ultimately, like the consensus has been that we were
pleasantly surprised of how balanced it was. I thought overall
it was very intriguing, and I got some good some

(01:16:16):
good quotes written down, But I don't know if you
want to go into those now or later or what?
Can we start with having I really want to like
anchor this in having you explained what community defense means,
like so people can understand why, and then we can
go from what people say to you yeah. Um, So
earlier y'all were talking about, like, um, the nineteen nineteen

(01:16:36):
riots and actually reminded me of like the Pacific Coast
Race riots of nineteen seven, and a bunch of were
like murdering and committing violence against Asian people, right, And
nineteen o seven was not that long ago. Um. And
in a sense, it never has gone away. Um. And
you know, I think um Chris File said it put

(01:17:00):
it nicely when he was like, you know, in the
backdrop of a lot of anti Asian violence. Um, it's
just that it's been a lot more prevalent among Asians specifically.
That doesn't stop you know, like Boba liberalism, identity politics
from happening where there's not like a grand division of
like what's going on at large. Um. But we know

(01:17:24):
that like our communities are under attack and the cops
don't give a funk about us, and if anything, they
just make it worse most of the time. Uh. And
so it's truly up to us because you know, cops
don't prevent crime. They come after and they funk it up. Um.
And it's not something that has come easily to me personally.

(01:17:47):
I've been in denial about it. For a lot of
years around thinking like if I just avoid going out
late at night, if I am always walking with a buddy,
if I just you know, spend twenty minutes looking for
a closer part working spot, it'll prevent me from being harmed.
And ultimately, like that's just me being in denial, um.

(01:18:08):
And part of it another realization is like being strapped,
I can seal carry every day. That's not going to
deter someone from attacking me because of how I look
without doxing myself. I just look alternative, right, um. And

(01:18:28):
knowing that that puts me at risk has never deterred
me from wanting to express myself with how I look.
But I know the risks and that doesn't stop people
from me. But part of it is like I'm not
going down without a fucking fight, Like my ancestors have
come too fucking far. We kicked out the French, we
kicked out the US, right, and now I'm in their turf.

(01:18:50):
I've infiltrated the wire, but that doesn't mean but you know,
it doesn't mean that it's going to stop them from
harming us. Um. And you know, we know that we
can't live in a fever dream where every single fascist
on this planet will be gone. Um, but at the
very least, like my life goal is to make them

(01:19:13):
think twice. And I'm scared a little bit. It's interesting
because you you bring up sort of what I think
is a really good point, which is that like, even
if you're if you're in your day to day life,
the fact that you're carrying a gun isn't going to
stop somebody from starting, you know, an interaction with you
that could turn violent because you just look the way
that you look. I do want to talk a little

(01:19:34):
bit about what's kind of the opposite thing, and it
is sort of part of why I think folks were
a little on edge when this event got announced and
you know that graphic came out that had as we've discussed,
the Yellow Peril tactical alongside you know, these these these
other groups. And there's one of the things that kind
of results from the way gun culture works is that

(01:19:57):
there's a very recognizable kind of um uniform um that
you see, particularly you've seen it with the Boogleoo Boys,
you see it with groups like the Proud Boys. It's
the it's the thing where you've got a plate carrier,
a belt, you know, an a are some other kind
of long gun helmets and and usually other tactical gear
on it um. And this kind of this outfit so

(01:20:19):
to speak, has kind of evolved over time. It really
is a result of the War on Terror, and it's
both an aesthetic choice and there's a huge number of
companies that exist, particularly on the right to provide people
with aesthetic options for kind of having all of this
gear that are are sort of ideologically simple simpatico with
them um. But it's also just actually a practice. Well

(01:20:43):
some of this stuff is less practical than others, but
the basics of the of the get up exist because
it's what worked, right. There's one of the things people
noted when the Taliban took back over in Afghanistan is
that all of their special operations guys were dressed the
same way that US fighters, just because it's just what works.
You see the same outfits on Ukrainian and Russian spec
ops guys um. And one of the things when we

(01:21:06):
when we're looking at kind of domestically, when you have
people who are organizing and going out in the world
armed as part of a public event, is that to
people who are not familiar with what's going on, it
can be hard to tell them about sometimes, and that
is that strikes me the thing that the left particularly
needs to deal with because both in kind of in

(01:21:29):
the media and also out in the field, you don't
want to be mistaken for groups like the Proud Boys
and Steve and I want to start kind of with
you here because I think you're you're reporting has always
done a really good job of kind of making that
difference clear. If you kind of have any thoughts on that,
and then we'll we'll go back to you snow. I
think that's a really interesting problem, the proliferation of tactical

(01:21:51):
um aesthetics and the ideological sort of turn in the
production of weaponry and accessories. I mean, there's like goddamn
tactical eight franchises, which is making me lose my mind
for a number of reasons. Um and that is a

(01:22:16):
is a real distinct thing that I see all the
time around here, and and I think there's subtle things
that groups do to try to distinguish themselves. Obviously are patches,
but in order to see a patch, you have to
be close enough to someone in order to even find
it legible. So then okay, you have flags, but then
you also have to know what these flags are. Something

(01:22:38):
that some groups around here have done when they're you know,
sort of protecting an LGBTQ event is still have um
flags affiliated with the LGBTQ movement, but once again you
have to know what those are. And one more people
know what those are these days, so that's a way
in order to distinguish themselves. But it still takes a
second for you to see a group of armed people

(01:23:00):
and then process you know, exactly all of these sort
of semiotic markers of who they are and what they're doing. Um,
because if they have a different set of those things,
it can be a very different set of conclusions that
you can walk away from if you identify them. Uh.
And in Texas, the right does love carrying these flags

(01:23:22):
and wearing these patches, so it makes it very clear
who has consistently shown up to these events. Um. But
like the reaction of normal people, if a group of
armed people are leading a protest is to kind of
be like, what the heck double take? Maybe they will
start filming it because it's the craziest thing that they've
seen that week. Um. And ultimately you know they have

(01:23:46):
to kind of know some contextual clues in order to
even make these distinctions, particularly when you're talking about groups
like um, you know, John Brown Clubs or Yellow Peril,
where you're there's concerns around OP SACK or in PHO SAK,
and you don't want to necessarily reveal your identities because
you're already a part of a group that's facing violence

(01:24:07):
at a disproportionate rate, and maybe you're you know, potentially
targeted by the FBI at a disproportionate rate. Like the
former FBI officer interestingly noted during the conversation that, yeah,
you may have an even harder time sort of distinguishing
yourself and in making it known who you are. Um,
So it's an interesting challenge. I don't know if I

(01:24:28):
have uh, sort of any lessons from it other than that,
you know, these classic signifiers also seem to work. Sometimes
they're kind of kitchy or um you know, seem ridiculous,
but it's kind of the same thing, like you said
about the spec ops, stuff like it's been used for centuries.
Stuff like this has been used for a long time

(01:24:50):
because it works because you immediately can comprehend is this
person with a gun here? To kill me or to
protect me. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really interesting because I
obviously I have a complicated history with flags, but there's
few better ways to to inform other people about what
a group of folks is doing than having one. Um, yeah,

(01:25:11):
as long as you're not conducting an ambush and that's
an offensive maneuver. And then suddenly you know, it's like,
as long as you're cool with being like, we're here
and this is what we're doing, a flag is exactly
the thing that you might want. So no, one of
the things I've I've always paid attention to and appreciated
about yellow Perils the way and what's y'all social media

(01:25:31):
and y'all's kind of forward face is both unapologetically focused
on firearms, focused on training, and also feels completely different
from any of the sort of right wing kind of
groups that that focus on some of the state, even
when you're doing stuff that's like videos of people shooting
and training, Um, do you want to talk? I mean,
it's just anything in general on this subject that you've

(01:25:53):
you've felt. But that's something I've always particularly noticed about y'all. Yes, oh,
thank you. Um, we try really hard. You should see
the group chet UM. But it's it's something that you
know when historically Asian Asians represented in firearms culture tend

(01:26:15):
to be conservative folks who fit within the norm or
you know, proximity to whiteness. And that's something that we
are not at all interested in, UM. And we know
that comes at a risk. That's why one of the
reasons why are identifiable tattoos are clothing and our faces

(01:26:35):
are always blurred one because we don't want cult of
celebrity around individuals. UM. But too it's like part of
that is a lot of folks generally, but especially on
the right, will kind of have this very grandiose uh,
I don't know, uh, buffers sense of legitimacy just because

(01:26:56):
they have cool you know, video editing, they have like
the nicest guns, they have a lot of guns. UM.
And our thing is like, you don't need all that.
What you do need is to train with what you
got and are target audience are folks who don't know
ship about firearms or just getting into it and needs
some more reputable to go. UM. And we take that

(01:27:19):
very seriously, UM, because I only got into firearms like
two years ago, UM, And so that is fresh in
my memory, and I know very well what that's like, um,
and how intimidating it could be. So a lot of
our work is to try to demystify it and really
break it down to a way that like it doesn't

(01:27:39):
like we don't make people feel like they have to
be at a certain level already to even enter into
the firearms world. Like we want to meet people where
they're at and encourage people. So like, you know, do
our drill of the month and like tell us your score,
and then do it next month and tell how to
tell us how you did better, And so it's really
encouraging people to get better on an individual basis, Um,

(01:28:02):
we encourage people to go out with their friends, um.
But we also try to throw in like community international
solidarity with our fundraisers in there too, So we try
to do a lot of different things. But at the
end of the day, like if we help just eapen
a handful of shooters get better at defending themselves or
their community, like it's all worth it. Thank you. I

(01:28:26):
want to ask next and I'll ask you both again
kind of same question. Where do you see the armed
left moving? Particularly in this next year's We kind of
get through our last or start go through our last
blessed year before election? Um, what are some things that
that are on your radar? What are some things that

(01:28:46):
you're sort of expecting to see? What are some things
that you're worried about? Saying a lot, it's a big ques.
I try to keep it to a year, right, Yeah,
but yeah, you know, I like I worry a lot.
I try not to get too caught up in it
because life will surprise you, you know. Um, But I

(01:29:08):
think ultimately, like where I live, we are facing down
a really tight governor race in which if the Republican
candidate wins UM, a lot of work that has been
put to, you know, codify abortion rights, workers rights, things
like that, will be reversed by this governor. Um. And
it's something that a lot of people are worried about,

(01:29:32):
myself included, and where I live, even within city limits,
there are white supremacists flags, Confederate flags, even just like
a couple of miles from my house, And so there's
a lot of fear around that becoming even more emboldened.
Even though we managed to fight back a lot and deterred,

(01:29:54):
it doesn't mean that they're not taking this moment the right,
the fast right to restrategize and to recalibrate what they
want to do next. Um. And so it kind of
feels like we're in the calm before the storm. Oh man. Uh,
not like the J six storm. That's not what I mean,
but like genuinely what it will actually look like, because

(01:30:16):
I don't think it's gonna be I don't think there's
gonna be like you know, we meet at the football
field and we have like our drummers out and like
our little pipe players out, and then we have a
thought of that it's gonna be like urban like warfare,
is what I think. Um. And a lot of other
people think that too. And you just throw in climate
change as a treat like we don't know what the

(01:30:38):
literal climate is going to be like. Um. And so
it really just feels like there's multiple fronts right now.
But it seems like climate change or the fascist will
kill me before my smoking habit will And a lot
of people think that too. Yeah, I mean, I I
do anecdotally know a lot of people who justify their

(01:30:59):
sick at use with Mike. Look, there's wildfires all around
my house. I'm not worried about the Marboros. It is.
It is October and the city of Portland is blanketed
and smoke. I don't know if the cigarettes are going
to get me. Stephen, did you did you want to
go next? Yeah? Well, I mean, you know, the fact

(01:31:22):
that a ship posting account gained some traction, maybe there's
hope yet. Um, I don't know, but ship posting will
save us in the end. It's it's another one on
the board for ship posting. Let's put it that way.
So looking forward to what are we dealing with? Well,

(01:31:43):
Texas is uh deep in it right now. Um, we're
one of the sort of laboratories of fascism in the
United States at the moment, sort of a spear tip
of a lot of really bad stuff really just like
you know, codifying in the state, oppressive things, things that

(01:32:04):
they just talk about in other states. Um. And so yeah,
our governor's race, Uh, basically it doesn't either, you know,
kind of split things because our lieutenant governor runs independently
of the governor. And you know, the House is a
whole other thing. Yeah, if it goes far right, Um,

(01:32:25):
which a ton of money has been spent, billions and
billions from people in the industry that's primarily responsible for
destroying the planet are um pushing that to make it happen,
and so that all works their way, then yeah, we're
probably going to get some uh seriously bad laws, really

(01:32:48):
bad state sponsored violence, a variety of forms, and yeah,
people are already thinking to themselves like do I want
to live in the state anymore? Um. But that's also
basically what the extreme people on the right want is
to either just get rid of these people one way

(01:33:08):
or another. UM. And so some people don't want that. Obviously.
Some people don't have a choice to leave because it's
expensive to move and they may be tied to their
families and other sorts of things. So, uh, I don't
like to predict the future because history is we keep

(01:33:28):
pumping shells into it and it keeps getting back up,
and uh, it's just gonna happen, And I don't really
know exactly. I just I'm very thankful that there are
people and groups in my state that are trying to
protect vulnerable people UM, and people working to hopefully make
it not super bad. UM. So I think like the

(01:33:52):
optimistic view is that it won't be all totally terrible, horrible,
but it'll be still kind of same same. Um, you know, yes, yeah,
that's kind of like how I see broad speaking, you know,
the big projection cone. Otherwise, Um, I'm not sure. Yeah,
ship is going to be fucked up, but at least

(01:34:13):
we'll have friends. Hopefully it'll be wavy and it will
be about the friends that we make along the way. Yeah,
I'll listen to joke. Do either of you have anything
else you'd like to talk about or or or bring
up or say before we kind of bring this to
a close. I guess I'm just like I was kind

(01:34:34):
of surprised how h decent that the panel went. Um,
you know, the anti fascist coalition can be broad because
it is a sort of anti thing. It's not necessarily positivist.
But you know, maybe that's another episode to describe, you know,
why it's important to also perhaps have a positivist message

(01:34:56):
along with what you're trying to do in response to fascism. Um.
And you know, like more discussions like this hopefully will happen,
and I think they could be improved by like not
all four panelists being white dudes. That would probably be helpful. Um,
as a thought, Yeah, well yeah, that that was actually

(01:35:22):
the first thing I wrote on my my note page
is that it was for I should have said that earlier,
so you know, I'm just playing. But I think one
thing I want to add is like, similar to what
you were saying, Stephen, was kind of like what is
the pro positive thing? And ultimately, like to me, it's

(01:35:43):
like the city that I live in, there's a lot
of decentralized mutual A groups that got a lot of
people through the pandemic and still provide daily relief to
people consistently. Like I'm in like a million fucking signal
chats where people post a need and it gets met eventually,
and it's like I'm pro that mutual aid and like

(01:36:05):
it's something that I mean, maybe it's the only thing
that will really get us through whatever is to come UM.
And that's just like pro community building UM and coalition building,
whatever that looks like in your community. Maybe if we
want to talk about mutual aid you can. I know,
you guys do a lot of fundraises. I think that's
a really cool thing certain distinguishes you from a lot

(01:36:26):
of other gun clubs. So maybe you want to talk
about a couple of those, maybe plug those, you know,
I would plug our fontwork patches, but we just sold
out of the second batch. It's a it is. We
didn't think people would care that much, especially the first round,
and so the second round we only ordered a hundred

(01:36:47):
and it's pulled out in a day. Those are supporting
the resistance in Me and mar right, yes, yes, people
are getting them by donating directly to Liberate Me and
mar and then someone sends them a cool while word
hatch um. And it's one of many fundraisers we've done.
We recently have done a couple for folks in Ukraine. UM.

(01:37:08):
We help them funds an ambulance out there. UM. I
can't remember the Instagram handle right now. UM. We've also
done a bunch for like a group in Portland, for example,
Black and Beyond the Binary. UM. I think we've done
to actually for Liberate Me and Mar UM, but it's
just something that you know, we don't do this for money,

(01:37:28):
and we also want to support other groups doing things
that we support, especially like popular fronts that are fighting
back against authoritarian regimes. UM and hoping that you know,
if ship hits the fan here, that people will do
that for us to UM because we really value international
solidarity and you know, as corny as it is, we're

(01:37:49):
you know, we're like we got us, you know, we
fend us, not George Soros, but um, you know, it's
something that brings us joy to be able to help
and um, as mostly anarchists, we really believe that, like,
we are all that we have and we can't wait
for someone else to to, you know, a benefactor to

(01:38:11):
come and save us, because that ship is just not
going to happen. Yeah, it's great. Where can folks find
you on the interweb they want to follow along? We
can find us on Instagram at Yellow dot Peril dot Practical.
You have to spell it out, I think, because I
think we're shadow band right now. Our Twitter, regrettably is

(01:38:33):
y P T Actual. We also have a website just
Yellow Peril Tactical dot com. We just took it so
no one else could. Um, but that's where you can
mainly find us. We are primarily on Instagram, um, but
most of our stuff is on Twitter. If you really
want to see a ship post, go on Twitter. We

(01:38:55):
recently got into it with this person and Oregon over
the gun control measure. Um, and let me tell you
it was a hoot, but also a little like maddening
because this guy, Yeah, this guy actually ties into how
we opened the episode because he was he's a local
liberal uh thought leader guy who uh saw two pictures

(01:39:20):
of people with guns, one of them being fascists and
one of them being one of y'all and was like,
clearly these are the same thing. Um, it was a
good time vote now on one fourteen in my opinion, uh,
if you're in the state of Oregon. But we'll talk
about that at a later point. Stephen, Um, you want

(01:39:41):
to plug you first off, obviously, really good work UM
on the panel. I want to plug that for folks
because I think it is really worth a listen. Um,
as everyone is here said, there's a lot of good
historical information in there and uh and and your contributions
are invaluable. So folks can check that out. If you

(01:40:01):
just google Cato Institute Domestic Extremism and Political Violence, you'll
find it. And how else can people find you? Stephen?
You can also find me on Twitter. UM, I will
make sure that my handle is there. It's at Steve
van Zetti. Ste van Zetti as in the you know,

(01:40:23):
one of the two that got killed by the state unjustly. Um.
Because it's anti Italian discrimination. So um right, digress um,
the you can find me there. Protean is obviously something
that I work with, and I would say check that
out as well. It's at prodi and mag. Uh that
has a website prodian mag dot com. Um, and anything

(01:40:47):
else that you want to know about me you can
either find on Twitter or Google. There's really only like
two guys named Stephen Monta Chelli in the entire state
United States, and the other ones like a C. P
A in his sixties, so it's just not that one. Um,
and yeah, you can find me there. Excellent. Um, well,

(01:41:07):
I'm glad we got to end on a Saco and
Vanzetti reference. And uh yeah, everybody go help somebody. Could

(01:41:32):
it happen here? I don't know, but I get paid
whether or not we find an answer to that question.
This has been the introduction to the podcast. I'm Robert Evans.
Hello everyone else, Hello, Hello, good morning afternoon. This is Garrison.
We have Sharene and we also have our friend prop

(01:41:54):
from Hood Politics here. Hello. Greetings, y'all talk to me nice.
I fully respect the transparency about like, well you get
paid regardless, yeah, exactly, exactly when or not. We learned
if it could happen here. Here's the thing. When I
used to teach high school, which believe it or not,
I did taught ninth graders. We was like maybe eight
years apart at the time, and uh uh there was

(01:42:18):
at one point and I taught Inner City and it
was it was at one point, I uh, I got
this idea from one of my like uh like mentor
teachers where I was like, okay, check this out. So
I made you remember overhead transparencies. Yeah, I do for sure.
So I made one of my check It was like,

(01:42:38):
I'm just gonna put this because I'm just gonna put
this up here because like y'all can do your work
or not. YO said, like I get paid either way.
I care. That's why I show up and I try
so hard, you know, but you're not hurting me by
whatever bellion you're practicing here like this this is who

(01:43:06):
ends at three o'clock. At three oh five, I forgot
everything you said to me, you know, so you're not
hurting me. Now. If you want to make me earn this,
then let's get busy, you know. And it was like,
no man gonna earn this. I was like, all right,
let's go to it. You know, I was a great teacher,

(01:43:26):
do you know, I mean I may have turned off
a few people, but I don't know that. Do you
know what does hurt me proper? What hurt you? Oh? God, Garrett,
the main streaming eventI semitic rhetoric. Um, you did a

(01:43:46):
good job there, Garrison. Great? You know what, you know
what put putting in for a commendation for you. You're
gonna get a little trophy from the company for that one. Hey, homie,
that was Garrison. That was Yeah, so a varsity bro,
was varsity fan. Unfortunately, today we're gonna be talking about
Kanye West. There's a lot of elements to this topic

(01:44:10):
of discussion between the media's coverage of what's happened, isn't
it ye now Garrison? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay.
So the thing is like it like at some point

(01:44:30):
probably now I am I have refused to talk about
same yeah you know, uh and specifically even covering it,
you know, on the pod. But it's definitely time to
be like, you know, whose man's is this? Yeah? You know,
like come on, somebody can get somebody can get your

(01:44:51):
man's here. You know what I'm saying, um, yeah, there's
a lot of different kind of parts of this between
how the media has been covering it the past month,
his own like history of like attention grabbing spectacle, the
whole mental health side of things. There's religion has uptakeing
the meta comments, and how the rights has been reacting.

(01:45:11):
There's there's there's a lot a lot of stuff based
on you know, a few a few not not great statements,
and a lot of interesting things have revolved around him.
Just pick your favorite subversive artists from fifteen years ago

(01:45:35):
and then picture that person doing this, just like on,
come on, My favorite subversive artists from fifteen years ago
might have been Dave Chappelle. You know, my my favorite
subversive artist from fifteen years ago, it was probably Steve
from Blues Clues. Hey, Steve remains remains solid. He's yeah,

(01:46:00):
he's a hero. Oh wait, no, I'm now seeing on
Deadline that he has recently embraced white nationalism words tattooed
on the back of his head next to the blue
paw print. Oh dear, Steve is fine, he's kidding, that
didn't happen, but yeah, absolutely, Because you're like and knowing

(01:46:24):
all of it's it is, And I hope I'm not.
I hope I'm not co opting this whole show, but
it's it is. The Tyra Banks clip from America's Top
Model words like we we believe, we all believed in you,
just furious, like we got damn it. We believed in you.

(01:46:48):
You know yeah yeah. And as the perspective of like
a younger person who wasn't really around for I guess
when Kanye was better, this stuff has not been surprising
to be because I've only been watching him the past decade,
and that's kind of what we're gonna talk about. I
would it would probably be fair to call me like
a casual knower of Kanye, but I'm I'm I'm much

(01:47:10):
older than you, Garrison, And so I remember George Bush
doesn't care about black people, which was like, that's the
height of all that seems that seems accurate. That was
the high water point when we were like he's for
the generation, this is this is a new breed, because
but what's what's what's ill is like it was obviously

(01:47:34):
a sign of his manicness. Looking in retrospect, it was like, oh,
he was in a manic episode. I mean and the
other thing is that he really just has a history
of basic contrarianism, so he'll he'll he'll oppose George W.
Bush because that's the contrarian thing to do. At the
moment post on eleven, everyone was very pro Obama. Someone

(01:47:56):
said he's gonna be pro Trump because he's gonna he's
gonna try to be that some of and that's only
been a pattern throughout his career. It just such to
see it go ahead. I'm not I'm not an expert
on his music. I wasn't particularly a fan. But the
thing I know that, like everyone talked about his motherfucker's
sampled blood on the leaves, like and now that's a

(01:48:18):
But also at the time it was like, wow, this
is you know, he's he's he's he's trying to say something.
And now there's a degree to which it's like, well,
was that just the most contrarians a move he could
be making, right, Yeah, And like what you said, prop
But like initially when this when the when the T
shirt and stuff was happening at Paris Fashion Week, I

(01:48:39):
really did not want to talk about this because I
thought it was just another one of Kanye's publicity stunts
kind of in line with his mega hat and Trump
appearances from a few years ago. And I didn't want
to like play into the media cycle of just amplifying
these stunts that Kanye does, which I think kind of
feeds into and encourages this kind of behavior. But then
Kanye went on Tucker and started hosting on the Internet,

(01:49:01):
and things have gotten a lot worse since then, And
now I feel like it actually is we should now
actually talk about this because there's some interesting things going
on um and ideally we can talk about it in
a way that's actually useful and that we can gain
insights from and not just you know, highlighting the bigoted
and unhinged things that a public figure has said. So

(01:49:21):
and I think kind of feigning with shock her surprisement
at his recent actions and behavior and statements is mostly
not useful, like as opposed to just like clearly condemning
bigotry and anti semitism and doing like the platforming and
also upon this, upon the news of the t shirt
stunt and the pointless matter stuff and anti semitism, I

(01:49:42):
was not actually really surprised because I kind of saw
this as a natural evolution of the logical progression of
the type of bit that Kandie has been doing, particularly
for the past five years, and that's kind of the
angle that we're going to approach this with. I think
we should probably start by talking about, well, the types
of alignments Kanye has had over the course of his

(01:50:02):
career towards Christianity and how that kind of reached the
peak in so you can see the kind of earliest
tense of this type of thing. It's pretty dumb a
song like Jesus Walks into Us and four um, and
then he kind of does some cool stuff. We get
to the album ease Us, which kind of revolves around
self like deification. I never expected to hear you say

(01:50:26):
Jesus awesome, okay, which is which is a pretty good album,
and it kind of it's it's it's before he gets
actually into like Christ. It's it's more like God as
like a spiritual force that you can interact with and
you can like align can like align yourself with um

(01:50:46):
can I can I fill in the can I fill
in the absolutely walks area? Yeah? Like important important context
about Kanye one is understanding how the South Side of
Chicago is, you know, and it's like to be black.
There's like, you're not. How do I say? This church

(01:51:11):
is as normal as dinner with in in our community,
specifically in the South side of Chicago. Of course, of course,
your daddy's a deacon. Of course, your mom teaches Sunday school.
Of course, the most hardened of criminals will stop and
talk to mother Johnson when they see her on the
side of the road because she was your Sunday school teacher,

(01:51:33):
you know, so and you still come every Sunday. Like
it's just such a part so the Christian idea, it's
such a part, an integral part of our of our community,
and of course of his because he's just one of us,
you know, um that of course he's going to do
a song called Jesus Walks, you know, um of course,

(01:51:55):
and of course he actually probably the whole time, believed
he was a Christian, you know, because of because we
all are, you know, saying like and unless you come
from like the f ol I or like Nation Islam
stuff situation like specifically just what black people were just
we just went to church, you know. So in all

(01:52:16):
of our all of our musicians, you take the greatest
musicians of any of our times, they used to be
choir singers, they used to be in the worship band,
like we just it's just a part of our life,
you know. So so for him to do that was
not strange. What was strange was him thinking it was unique.

(01:52:40):
That was the part that was so weird about like
why you think this is there's like, you know, there's
the aspect of thinking that some of the gospel type
of stuff he was doing was unique, which yeah, maybe
it was unique for me on such such a large platform,
but it was not new. And the the the other
thing that is different is that there is a difference
between the type of the type of like black churches

(01:53:02):
you're talking about and white Christian evangelical born again very
different around conversion, which is what he starts getting into.
And yeah, what he became, you know what I'm saying,
But that's not that's why I was like, let me
give it. That's so that's why I like, at first,
and I'm speaking as somebody who also came from like
a very person of color experience and with Christianity and

(01:53:26):
then finding you know, sort of white evangelicalism and thinking
because we're using the same words that we're talking about
the same thing, and then about five minutes sitting at
that table, you're just like, oh oh, you just kind

(01:53:46):
of like make the little piece outside and let me
slide out, because clearly we don't believe the same things.
You know. I first found your music as I was
kind of me and my family were exiting evangelicalism. Yeah,
and that was a very useful kind of depth that
was still using some familiar language, but it was like
going in a better direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. So

(01:54:08):
I think that the next kind of notable thing is
the more gospel esque album Life of Pablo, allegedly inspired
by the life of the biblical Paul. And there's the
song Ultra Ultra light Beam, which features contemporary gospel superstar
Kirk Franklin and Chance the Rapper, who is also a
very open Christian. Yeah. Uh. Then he GANI has a

(01:54:31):
few years of dealing with mental health stuff. He gets hospitalized,
he comes out of the hospital, and then in April,
he some somewhere around sixteen, he kind of endorses Trump
kind of um. But then but then in April West
sends out a series of tweets expressing admiration for Trump,
including that he felt he was his brother and they

(01:54:53):
both have quote dragon energy. Um people like Trance of
Rapper initially came to West defend saying that black people
don't have to be Democrats, which he later apologized for,
and a lot of tweets that were up that are
now gone. Yes, and then one of the kind of
worst inclinations of where things are kind of going was

(01:55:14):
a fucking TMZ interview which was supposed was which was
supposed to be about Congye's support of Trump, but then
he went on to make some pretty gross comments about
black people choosing to be enslaved. I don't think people
necessarily understand what happened last week with the Great America
America great again? Hat What are you trying to do

(01:55:35):
with the message you're sending? Well, it was really just
my subconscious It was a feeling I had, you know,
like people were taught how to think, we're taught how
to feel. We don't know how to think for ourselves.
We don't know how to feel for ourselves. People say
feel free, but they don't really want us to feel free.
And uh, I felt a freedom and first of all,

(01:55:56):
just doing something that everybody tells you not to do.
I just loved Trump. Do you hear about slavery for
four hundred years, for four hundred years, that sounds like
a choice, Like he was there for four hundred years,
and it's all of y'all, you know, like it's like
we're mentally in prison. I like the word prison because
slavery goes to to direct to the idea of blacks.

(01:56:21):
It's like slavery holocaust, Holocaust students, slavery is blacks. So
prison is something that unites us as one race, blacks
and whites being one race. Uh, that we're one were
the human race. And fun fact, like Van who stood
up to him, I think to this day, especially among
like black media figures, he's, as far as I can remember,

(01:56:47):
like one of the only that confronted him in the
moment boldly didn't mince his words. You could tell he
was like almost weeping, because I mean that's the way
I felt watching it, where it was just like oh
what do you what are you saying? Like it's just
it's just so hurtful because you're like you can't believe,

(01:57:10):
like come on, man, like drop the act, bro, Like
now now we're all suffering. It's like it's almost like
I get I get it. We get it looking back, Yeah,
even college dropout, that record was just him being Now
I used to think it was like revolutionary. No, it's
just him being a contrarian. I don't know if you
go to college, you know now I know, like, oh man,

(01:57:30):
it wasn't as deep as I thought it was. You know,
so you're thinking, yeah, at the moment, you're like genius,
Like dark Trested Fantasy was like the most amazing album
I had ever heard up to that point, brilliant, and yeah,
thats as you guys are talking. There's like sprinkles of
religious stuff in that one, and then a lot of
his stuff and he just takes it one stuff too
far because I just remember thinking like, oh, this guy's

(01:57:51):
a musical genius. And then when you see that genius
kind of turn on itself, it's just really disappointing. But yeah,
shout out Van for like fronting him and directly saying
you're wrong. This hurts and I can't believe you say that,
and you owe your community and apology. That was pretty dopey.
So after that incident, he took to Twitter dot com

(01:58:13):
to clarify, slash, defend, slash, double down on his slavery
comments talking about being mentally enslaved and how it's we
need to you know, this is just an example, like
and how his comments were just an example of of
free thought. It's just an idea, and once again I'm
being attacked for presenting new ideas. And then he ended
this kind of tweet thread with a fake Harriet Tubman

(01:58:34):
quote saying I freed a thousand slaves. I could have
freed a thousand more. Offinitely they knew they were slaves,
which is not not a real Harriet doubled quote. Now
that that doesn't seem like a thing she would say
at all, and all of all the tweets related deleted,
but it was it was kind of doubling down on
some of the same rhetoric. And then allegedly, um, some

(01:58:55):
of the TMZ staffers have also now come out and
said that he's said some andy semitic things during during
the interview that we're cut out. Now that's not verified
and TMZ is obviously not a great source, um, but
just an interesting note on him possibly saying some other
things that people were thought were kind of weird and
just thought that we may as well just cut this

(01:59:16):
out because it doesn't seem super relevant at the time anyway.
So around the same time in eighteen, Kanye befriended someone
named Candice Owens, who was at the time the communications
director for the far right group Turning Point USA, led
by man with face too small for his head, Charlie
kirk Um. Kanye tweeted quote that he loved the way

(01:59:39):
Candice Owens thinks. Um. Candace Owens basically makes all of
her money by being paid by rich conservative white men
to say that racism isn't a problem anymore. Uh. Days
after his candas owns tweet, when there was the mega
hat wearing TMZ visit, he was accompanied by to TMZ

(01:59:59):
by Candace Owen's. Uh. That's something that a lot of
people miss is that Owens is Owens is a is
a core vector point for all of the stuff around
Kanye UM and much of Kanye's rhetoric in this vein
of like slavery being thought to control, a lot of
that directly comes from Owens. That that that's the talking points.

(02:00:21):
That Yeah, all of those talking points come directly from
Owen's which come from her being paid by the Koch brothers.
UM and then obviously West solidified his position in the
pro Trump camp with the heavily publicized Whitehouse visit in
late October eighteen where Kanye give like a ten minute
long monologue while wearing the Mega hat. And that's fine.

(02:00:41):
I love this guy right here. Let me get this guy.
I love this guy right here. That's really, that's really
and that's from the heart. I didn't want to put
you in that position, but that's from the heart. These
are like the intersections that are being vector in this
scenario in this thing is like like I said, like

(02:01:04):
I didn't, I did not want to cover this, but
now that it's like it's clearly necessary to do, just
for even for this context. Like there's a certain I
I save. I save the word coon, Like coon is
not something you throw around like that's to me, it's

(02:01:25):
the yeah, it is. It's far as far as a
black person or me as somebody who works in justice
and stuff like that, it is the worst thing I
can call you, you know what I'm saying, So like
I save that term. And and it's because of the
same reason why it's hard for the totality of our

(02:01:46):
of the black community to ever really fully disavow somebody.
It's because of our history of collective suffering, like are
we've survived because of our communal protection of each other.
So even when somebody is losing it, it's just like baby,
just come home, baby, Okay, listen, No he having a
bad day, you know. I mean, you just you want

(02:02:07):
so much to protect them because you understand how much
internalized like self hate and racism, how much you internalize
that stuff, you know, so you just want so bad,
so bad to be like okay, Candice, let's turn the
cameras off, like you getting your money, right, that's this,
this is what we're doing, right, you just come on,

(02:02:27):
you can tell us, you just give you getting your money,
just tell us, you know, it's like you know, no,
fam you don't really believe it's do you? You know?
And and then we get to be like baby, don't
get your money like that, like, don't don't get your
money on based on our suffering like you because you're
thinking that there's no there's no way, there's no way
this is really you, you know, and so so so

(02:02:52):
when you put those two together, it's like like why
did it take us so long to disavow R? Kelly?
Why did it take us so long to this. Why
is Chris Brown still a star? You know what I'm saying,
It's because it's it's because of that. It's just you
don't ever wanted like you gotta save you gotta save coon.
You gotta save that for when you really mean it,
you know what I mean? Uh, for me personally, I'm like,

(02:03:15):
I just I don't pull that word out off in
And then there's moments when you're just like, I don't
know what else to call it, is like, I just you.
If you if you are selling your own people out
for the purpose of making money, that's coon, that's coonery.
Like I don't and it's it's just hard for me

(02:03:38):
to say it. But anyway, go on, tell us more
about Candice Owns, the girl that suited the girl that
suited her school suit or school board for racism. She dead, Yeah,
she sure dead. We'll get back to Owens in a bed.
By the time nineteen started, uh, you know, this is
when Kanye went public about his born and in conversion

(02:04:00):
to Christianity and kind of his full pivot towards the
I guess mostly kind of untapped mainstream Christian rap market,
which is kind of I'm going to try to frame
some of his decisions here as being more monetarily driven,
then would a lot of people assume because I can
totally understand these as business choices, especially coming after the

(02:04:23):
Trump visit, his his his state of alignment with Trump
and friendship with Canadace Owens handed him a partially alieneded
fan base, accompanied by a new wave of fans from
right wing Christian evangelicals to all right, you know, turning
point you was, say, daily wire type supporters. And then
by the beginning of twenty nineteen, West kind of tamped

(02:04:45):
down on some of his explicit Trumpian political persona type stuff,
and in its place came this weekly pseudo Christian gathering
known as the Sunday Service, just like a weekly mostly
invite only, choir packed music gathering that changes locations every week.
Sometimes that properties owned by Kanye sometimes that churches outdoors

(02:05:07):
all all around the country. Yes see. And this is
this is where things get uncomfortably start to get uncomfortably culty.
This is where things get quite culty. And it's like
and and and and and don't get it, like, let
me not, let me not cap They were objectively dope
like as as music concerned, these are objective. And that's

(02:05:29):
and that's the hard part about Kanye, where it's just like, look,
you go back, you go back a couple of decades.
That was not untrue. If people's temple, they had great artists,
they put on great music. That was a big part
of their appeal. And and and Kanye for Sunday's Service
hired a lot of extremely talented people to lead up
those programs that yeah, a lot of a lot of

(02:05:52):
like legendary gospel singers, you know, and very recognizable names.
And again giving that that his history and context, and
then the context is just Black people in general. Part
of it felt like at the time, Okay, he's trying
to return to his roots. It's like this is what
you grew up in, and you realized, like maybe you've

(02:06:15):
gone too far. Maybe it's like I'm so far into
this Hollywood world, you know, I'm starting to like So
I'm like, I'm gonna do my best to like like
anyone does, like, let me return back to what I
know was the safest moment in my life, and it
was Sunday Services. So it's like I gave him the
benefit I am. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

(02:06:35):
Because it's like, that's what we all do. You return home,
you start praying again. You know what I'm saying, And
just would I would totally believe that if it weren't
for the fact that he tried to trademark the terms
Sunday Services, right Like, once you start doing that, you're like, huh,
I wonder what's actually going on a minute. Yeah, Like

(02:06:56):
performers and attendees had to sign and D A S
and here to a strict address code that changed every week. Um.
The service featured gospel inspired remixes of classic songs from
different genres, and also strike choir led gospel tunes with
the occasional biblical servant, often often given by like a
white guy in his thirties or sometimes Kanye Yeah, it's it's.

(02:07:18):
It's probably mostly known for attracting celebrities to come and
then also playing at Coachella in t Yeah, well there's
nothing wrong with Coachella, so yeah nothing nothing ever bad's
half of that Coachella there, and they're just normal booking
promoters that are just looking at numbers and saying these

(02:07:40):
people will buy tickets. So I know I showed this
to you, Garrison prop have you ever seen the movie, Um, Marjo, No,
I have not. There's a couple of it's about the
evangelical movement right at the start of the religious right, okay,
the Fallwell Days and everything, And there's a couple of

(02:08:00):
moments that show an early megachurch with a majority black
congregation and incredible singers and incredible music acts and then
a bunch of like old white people running things and
taking all the money. Um, I don't know, Yeah, it
makes me think about that. I don't know entirely. The

(02:08:22):
and the thing is like, like I said, you know, uh,
obviously as a fan of the show, you know I'm familiar,
you know, getting same with your your history and even
you describing your history of church is just like that's
just not my experience, Like that wasn't the church we
were in, because I was just in a whole different tradition.

(02:08:42):
So when you when you come across and I like,
I can't stress this enough, when you come across you know,
the Nashville of it all, the like the CCM of
it all, like in in and these bigger, you know, suburban,
mega white churches like you again you think you're saying

(02:09:03):
the same thing, like you you just it's this weird
like and I know one of the things for me
was like and then Oscar Grant happened, you know what
I mean. And then Mike Brown happened, and then I'm
like and then you realize like, oh yeah, no, we're not,
We're not. And then that begins. Then you start questioning
your all background, like dude, well like well what did

(02:09:25):
we believe? And we was kids, you know what I'm saying.
And then looking at the Sunday looking at this Sunday service,
I was like, yo, this is this is youth group.
That's we did a youth group. You just you know,
you get a good singer and they remix a Jodacye
song and just praise in it. You know what I'm saying.
I'm like, oh, this is You're just singing up a

(02:09:47):
pop song and you're just giving it Christian words. This
isn't clever, Like you know, we've we've been doing this,
you know. And and but then like like yeah, like
the same thing like once you exit that like you
know that subculture and you start like breathing the air
and you're just like, oh, so you so you're telling
me Muslims don't have horns and aren't you know what

(02:10:08):
I'm saying, going to immediately going to, well, it's not
like that. It turns out there just wonderful human beings
that believe beautiful things. Then you start looking back and
you're going, damn, maybe I was kind of maybe I
did kind of drink that cool aid, you know. But yeah,
and we're talking about, you know, when we're talking about
how kind of the white suburban church can be sometimes

(02:10:29):
saying the same words but also be very different. We'll
be talking about Joel Osteen in a little bit. Oh yes,
oh yes, yes, the smile and prata like I'm telling
you dig like you just you just and then yeah,
once you once, once the veil comes off and you
realize like the way these people are talking to you.
And for me, it was like, oh shit, you use

(02:10:51):
the same the same words you're using about my experience,
you're using about the queer community, I'm using about the
trans community. And then you start going, oh ship, oh okay,
oh it's on now you know what I'm saying. Now
you're like, okay, nah, I'm cool on all this. Let
me let me go, let me go to Ethiopia, you know,

(02:11:12):
just let me see what y'all think about this, you know.
But yeah, any anyway, yeah, that that that that aspect
and then I mean, I'm I'm I'm rambling because it's
such it's so close to home. This Kanye said, is
so close to home that like, you're like, because I
can see how you'd fall for it. It's what I'm
trying to say. I can see how he'd fall for it,

(02:11:34):
you know, kind of at the height of his Sunday
Service stuff in twenty nine is when Kanye started openly
talking about his born again conversion to Christianity. I'm gonna,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote a Fox News article quote, Yeah,
you must be born again. Kanye West and Kim Kardashian

(02:11:54):
shared their Christian faith in a big way over this weekend.
Adam Tyson, a pastor from the southern California, told Fox
News recently that he's been leading West in a Bible
study for months now and would quote teach from God's
Word about how salvation is only by grace alone, through
faith alone, in Christ alone. Great cutting edge journalism. I

(02:12:17):
also reformed Calvinist talk. Yeah, it is always interesting and
I guess meaningless because they don't have to be consistent.
But I can remember when Kanye said what he said
about George Bush after Katrina and the degree to which
Fox News treated him like a fucking ghoul, like like
the incarnation. Some of the cruelest and most racist ship

(02:12:39):
I ever saw on Fox News was focused around that.
But no, now he's now he's publicly praying, so like
he's back on our side. We're all good. You know?
That was that clip was It was around the time
of like ring tones. It was my ring tone. I'm
saying George Bush doesn't care about black people. That was
my ring tone. One of those things. Fucking somebody needed

(02:12:59):
to say it. Somebody needed to say it. Somebody needed
to say it. Yo. And then when you see like
out of y'all remember this, but George George Bush did
a post like presidential interview and they asked him like,
what was your like lowest point in when your president?
He was like when Kanye said I didn't care about
black people, Like not the multiple invasions, not the two

(02:13:23):
times you invaded foreign country, none of that, none of
a war crimes, none of that cool. When you said
you won't care about black people, that is I I
gotta say though, that's also kind of because I remember
when he said that how happy everybody was, just because
it was nice to see George Bush sad. But it's
also kind of another harbinger of well, that's maybe too

(02:13:47):
much cultural power for one man should have all that
we got there. Yeah, because definitely added inside knew how
to make guess it definitely added to Kanye's cash because
it was like, bro, you you did it. You took

(02:14:08):
down a president. Yeah, you know the last rapper town
the president. Yes, the last rapper to take down the
president was easy and iced tea, like it took a
long time before we could get somebody lay easy. We're
talking about you know, the Jerry Curl juice dripping on
the White House like that's that's eat, that's easy, you
know what I mean. And then you know with body

(02:14:30):
counting cop killer from iced tea, like that was the
last time anybody was able to take out a president,
you know. So I'm like, you didn't you and the
annals a history now, fam that's what we thought at least. Yeah,
So I think I think stuff like that made him think.
He's like he transcended blackness the same way thinks he has.
You know what I mean. I think that mentality plays,

(02:14:52):
in my opinion, a lot into the Messiah complex that
he clearly has. Yeah. After the Kim kar Ashian baptism
and the Adam Tyson Bible study groups, Kanye started talking
much more openly about the like the evangelical style born
again conversion that he had in t While at the

(02:15:13):
biggest mega church in the country based out of Houston, Texas,
Kanye talked about his recent conversion to Christianity to the
sixteen thousand people president at the churches regular Sunday service,
Kanye declared that he no longer cares for fame and money,
but it's only in the service of God. And in
conversation with the celebrity pastor Joel Osteen at the church,

(02:15:34):
Kanye said, quote, the only superstar is Jesus, and I
know that God has been calling me for a long
time and the devil has been distracting me for the
long time. Here's a pro tip. The only time you'll
ever hear someone say I no longer care for money,
it's because their riches God right as they have enough
of it. Yes, you have more than you could spend

(02:15:56):
in a in a radio interview, Kanye into into detail
about his conversion, saying that he began reading the Bible
during his hospitalization for mental health issues and started a
quote writing and copying out Bible versus which is not Listen, y'all.
Like I don't want to be just like blatantly anti Bible,

(02:16:19):
but if you're in the hospital for mental issues, they
should let people they should not let you access any
religious text at all, like any any religious text. This
is but like, like this whole the story is it
is standard inner city church talk, like this is par

(02:16:40):
for the course. You're like, look, dude, you know, you
go up and you give you give your testimony and
testimony service. You know, I was listen, I was outside,
I was doing all the gangs. I was with all
the girls. And then one day I was high, you know,
I was in nine gangs and I was and I
was at a four day binger and I just looked
up and I said, God, if you could get me

(02:17:00):
out of this, you know. And then over in the
corner I saw Bible like it's it's standard, you know. Yeah, yeah,
it's there's so much about it that standard. Also, just
to Evangela again, I brought up the whole. I no
longer care about money. But every one of these rich
megachurch pastors who is making hundreds of millions of dollars

(02:17:23):
a year will have speeches where they're like, I don't
care the money means nothing to me. It's all for
God everything, like is the only real star up here?
Like it's it's it's all very again if you're I
think this hit people like a brick who aren't familiar
having had experienced, particularly like strains of Southern Christianity. Yeah,

(02:17:44):
but the way Kanye has been talking makes a lot
of sense. But it's also I think that chunk of
people were all flumeexed by the black Israelism stuff, which
I'm guessing we're gonna talk. Yeah, that that's more North Beast.
And yes, that the Hebrews were like stuff. All right,
let's go, so stay there A lot of thoughts. So

(02:18:09):
around this time in nineteen is when Kanye announced that
he's no longer making secular music, which is a term
I heard a lot as a kid music music Absolutely not, no,
no way, that's worldly, man worldly. When the last time
I heard the phrase worldly, Yes, yeah's worldly. I'm in

(02:18:32):
the world. That's right, that's right. So this led to
his late twenty nineteen album Jesus Is King. It's objectively
it's a good alfl um it is, but it's also
borderline Christian dominionist in some themes. Um. The very first
words in the album are God is King, we are

(02:18:54):
the Soldiers um, And that song ends with the Army
of God and we are the Truth um. So you
know that that goes into the entire ideas about like
the Kingdom of God where the soldiers. So in this idea,
there's there's like there's this battle between the antagonism against
the godly community from the forces of spiritual darkness, and

(02:19:14):
you know, shout out and woo woo's in there. There's
for every Christian rapper of the world who had this
guy make one one record and then cover everybody's charts,
so now no one cares about your how you've been
serving at these like you know camp Canna cooks, you know,
rap it in these twelve year old white kids and

(02:19:35):
trying to get your trying to get your albums out,
and then this will Kanye just cleans up your whole genre.
He had the pretty funny song, in my opinion, closed
on Sunday. You might check fil A, which I think
is funny. Now that is that's actually pretty good. But
the man is talented. No one's arguing about it's also

(02:19:58):
probably sincere because saw it ends with Jesus, listen and obey.
So like it's you know, um no, it's it's it's
a it's it's funny. It's funny that it is. There's
this there's this like with hip hop, you know, as
a rapper, there's this like fine line between clever bars
and dad jokes like that it's you you you gotta

(02:20:19):
teeter on that. And I was like, yo, you are
dancing on that on that border with this one, you know. So,
Evangelicals kind of embraced Kanye in this period. Some were
obviously skeptical based on him being a black person and
his in his general past, but overall a lot a

(02:20:39):
lot of people were happy to have kind of to
use him as a token figure almost um Kanye in
in a In a Guardian piece titled Kanye West is
spreading the Gospel of white evangelicals, Malika Habali writes, quote,
like other black conservatives, the rapper and designer down plays

(02:21:00):
racism while promoting bootstrap virtue signaling while signifying black cultural
and religious traditions. His album is peppered with samples of
Black church staples like James Cleveland's God Is West advances
the gospel of white evangelicals. Although he has challenged conventions
in nearly every aspect of his artistic life, Kanye West

(02:21:21):
has been born again as a conservative, and that that
whole article is a really good piece kind of going
into how how specifically he's the type of thing he's
engaging with is distinct from like the Black church tradition,
and it's just like Joel Osteen shiit alut and then
the hill all exactly exactly do you cover Hill? Are

(02:21:43):
we gonna talk about Hill Song at all? I don't
have anything of Hill Song in this script. The script
is already too long. It might it might need to
be a two parter at this point. Will probably do
Hill Song on bTB at some point. Hill Song was
a big part of my childhood. Yea is a big
part of the whole fascism. It's yeah, I really feel

(02:22:04):
like I really feel like just as just secular, just
just the idea of just like secular, like academia. Anybody
who studies culture. I feel like the effects of something
like a hill song is always siloed into this like
study of religion, you know what I mean, This is

(02:22:24):
just this state, but like really the cultural societal impact
global like of something like a hill song stretches so
far past just a theological or religious thing. I think.
I don't think people really understand like the influence something

(02:22:45):
like a hill song would have. And just like any
other thing, it's like, you know, a sward in there,
mess cool people there, you know what I'm saying, go
on me, you know what I mean. There's some stuff
that I was just like, all right, yeah, y'all weird
those but you know, but generally it's like I mean, yeah,
like you just be DMX went to Hillsong, New York,

(02:23:06):
you know what I'm saying. Like, so this the type
of influence over so much of the even just pop music.
It's like you'll understand like like top you know, number
of Top forty pop songs were actually written by their
worship band, like just stuff like that. Like that, the

(02:23:26):
effects of something like a hill song, I feel like,
is grossly under under reported and underrated. Another interesting note
um the University of Virginia professor Ashton Crawley wrote for
NPR and saying, quote, Kanye West has used the concept
of salvation to disallow thoughtful engagement with his politics because

(02:23:48):
I think it's an interesting sidebar to kind of everything
we've talked about, especially with his with his more evangelical
stuff coming directly after his Trump stuff. UM. Now, obviously
I don't know what's going on inside Kanye's head, nor
can I judge his sincerity of faith, but I can
certainly see the business aspect of brownding yourself as basically
the first like extremely mainstream Christian rap artist in twenty nineteen,

(02:24:13):
I can totally I can see from a business perspective
what happened in with his politics. I can I can
see how this may have been a gamble that he took.
Um so throughout after his Sunday service can of era,
Kanye was kind of running for president, but like not really.

(02:24:33):
It mostly seems to be a publicity thing. Um. His
campaign obviously did not result in him becoming naming president,
but it did result in his wife divorcing him in
favor of Pete Davidson. Uh. The most notable aspect of
his campaign is in July, at a rally in North Charleston,
South Carolina, Kanye broke down into here is as he
as he claimed that him and his wife had discussed

(02:24:55):
aboarding their first child. UM. This allegedly at his wife
mortified and quote deeply worried over Kanye's mental state, which
eventually led to their divorce. Kanye continued and continues to
focus on abortion. UM, but he continued to talk about
that throughout his quote unquote campaign and in interviews. UM.

(02:25:18):
Later that September, he said that God revealed to him,
quote the black genocide that is abortion. Um. God revealed
that to him. Is this the same line? Yeah, I'll
say this. I don't have a lot of nice things
or a lot to say at all about Kim Kardashian,
But one of the first thing I thought back when

(02:25:38):
he got institutionalized during his mental health outbreak is like, oh,
people actually care about him, Like he actually has people
in his life who love him and are making him
seek help. UM, which a lot of very famous people
who have you know, psychotic episodes and stuff don't don't
have that. Right. No one around them is willing to
be critical enough to be like, you need help, right, now, yeah,

(02:26:02):
it does seem like she really tried to help. Yeah,
it's crazy to think that, like like on you on
our like bingo card, that the adult in the room
was going to be Kim Kardashian. Yeah, he would have
not predicted that, you know her, her actions in the
marriage make sense to me. Yeah. So with all of

(02:26:27):
that context, this finally leads us to our main topic
of discussion. We haven't got there yet. Recent actions cove
and s leaked to white supremacy and anti Semitism. So
this most recent circus started at the beginning of October
during Paris Fashion Week, where Kanye literally hand in hand
with far right media personality kendas Owen's debuted his new

(02:26:51):
line of T shirts while wearing a long sleeve that
read White Lives Matter. Now this is this The slogan
is obviously response to blm UM, but the more formal
like White Lives Matter movement is is like an explicitly
neo Nazi group tied to the area in resistance society,

(02:27:11):
the National Socialist movement and the loyal white nights of
the Ku Klux Kan. So it's like the the actual
group is explicitly like Nazis, but obviously the slogan is
not it's easy to coup with the slogan white Lives matter,
Like it's not like that's not like where did he
get that from? Like? Come on? So Kanye's promotion of

(02:27:33):
the slogan was obviously celebrated by many neo fascist online celebrities.
Nick Fuentez of America first forwarded the post, saying that
quote anti white racism and white Lives matter are now mainstream.
This is an unambiguous win. Um and then A. Tucker
was very quick to do a segment on his show

(02:27:54):
where he wondered what the T shirt was really about.
Days ago, during Action Week in Paris, West, accompanied by
his friend Candice Owens, unveiled a T shirt that read
simply white Lives Matter. The response from the fashion industry
in international media was instantaneous and uniform shock, horror rage.

(02:28:15):
There was no excuse for this, thundered The New York Times.
West is legitimizing extremism, shrieked Rolling Stone, etcetera, etcetera. What
was strikingly missing from the coverage, whoever, was any explanation
for why West did this? What was the T shirt about?
No one seemed to think to ask him, much less
to listen to what he had to say. Instead, the

(02:28:35):
enemies of his ideas dismissed West, as they have for years,
as mentally ill, too crazy to take seriously. Look away,
ignore him. He's a mental patient. There's nothing to see here.
I don't know who's who's to say, who who's to say?
Really surprised all the all Lives Matter people weren't in
such an uproar about that. Yeah. The next Monday, Kanye

(02:28:59):
wrote on Instagram, quote everyone knows that Black Lives Matter
was a scam. Now it's over your welcome unquote. This
is this is this is right. This is like direct
Candace Owen's ship in a way that will explain later.
Um but so, a few days after Kanye and models

(02:29:20):
for his new uh Easy lineup don the White Lives
Matter t shirts at Paris Fashion Week, he himself made
an appearance, um to quote Rolling Stone on the show
Where White Lives Matter the Most, Tucker Carlson's Fox News show,
Tuck Across It Tonight. Honestly, solid, solid turn of phrase. Yeah,

(02:29:41):
that's that's a good way to write that. Good. Thank
thank you, comrade rolling Stone. So you made reference to
the white Lives Matter T shirt she brought out at
Paris Fashion Week. Why did you do that? And what
did it mean? You know, I did I do certain
things from a feeling. I like, I just I just

(02:30:04):
channeled the energy. It just feels right. It's using a
gut instinct, a connection with God and just brilliance. You know,
because if you ask, like Tanya Harding how she did
the triple flip or the triple spin, she was in

(02:30:25):
so much practice that when it was time for her
to skate in a in a competitive format, it just happened.
Like it happened outside of practice, that happened in the
real format. And that's what happened. That's what's happening. Is
God is like preparing us for the real for the
real battles, and we are we are in a battle

(02:30:45):
with the media, like the majority of the media has
a godless agenda. Oh that's a brilliant so uh. In
the cliff, he talks about this idea coming to him
as like a feeling. Um. This is basically the same
explanation that he gave for wearing the Mega hat. It's

(02:31:06):
like a spontaneous gut instinct or feeling. The spontaneous decision
to make model and sell over priced printed T shirts
that about like wearing a kilt. I remember for one
of the records, he said he had that feeling over
that he was going to do it in Chicago because
he wanted to set young black man free. So he's

(02:31:27):
gonna wear a kilt. Uh. He also said when he
was going to run for president that it just happened
in the shower and he just started laughing and he
was like, I'm gonnaround for president. I'm gonna be the president.
I don't like not believe him that these exact like
come this way like exactly, Like, yeah, that probably, but
it's it's funny to frame the decision to like do

(02:31:49):
these very planned out things as just a single, like
gut gut moment of spontaneous instinct, because making and producing
T shirts takes like it's like a process. And he
talked about as if he decided to do this like
right before going on stage at Paris Fashion Week, which like, no,
like this was like a decision that you made and
you then took steps to execute um. So in then

(02:32:13):
in that section of the interview, Kanye did go on
to dismiss the assertion that his behavior is a result
of any mental health issues. Um. Then, in a segment
talking about Lizzo and body positivity, Tucker and Kanye had
this exchange referencing body weight being demonic and a part
of quote, black genocide. It's actually clinically unhealthy and for

(02:32:38):
people to owe to promote that. Um, it's said it's demonic.
You know what would I ask you? I've noticed this? Also,
why do you think they would want to promote unhealthiness
among the population. It's a genocide of the black race.
They want to kill us in any way they can.

(02:33:00):
Kanye then goes on to talk about like abortion also
being black genocide, which he has been talking a lot
about in the past few weeks. Um, Yeah, that Lizzo clip, Like, man,
it's that was like just like I mean like I

(02:33:26):
can only wait, I can only think of like vulgar
phrases to describe it where it's just like it just
it just kicked me in my balls, dude, like we're
already on the ground. Just that's what if it's just
felt like a ball stomp or it's just like you
don't have to come on, man, you're a you're down,
bad bro. Like, really, I got nothing, man, Like, why

(02:33:50):
are you going to I'm gonna like, it's exhausting. Yeah,
that's what I'm trying to say. It's exhausting. Were just like, yeah,
all of all of the coverage is exhausting, and feeding
in and like, the feeding into it as media spectacle
only encourages this type of like unhealthy behavior and it
does not help. Like it it doesn't help to be

(02:34:10):
a regular person on social media having like strangers interact
with you in a weird way, let alone, if if
you're one of the most famous people in the world, like,
it's it's not it's not healthy. I'm going to quote
from New Republic, and this is kind of about his
White Lives Matter shirt and his initial Tucker Carlson appearance
quote little more than a troll, another tiresome and mediocre

(02:34:32):
provocation to stirrup attention by using a contrarian slogan that
until now was mostly associated with far right white supremacists.
West has in recent years made more waves with his
efforts to trigger the libs than he has with his music.
White Lives Matters is still gonna associated with hate groups,
but he got what he sought attention and amplification from

(02:34:53):
Republicans and right wing media, West earned to sit down
with Fox News on Tucker Carlson Tonight to talk about
his boy Trump and the response he has received his
overall negaification. Carlson was hardly alone and celebrating West for
not only rejecting Black Lives matter, but promoting the same
sense of white grievance and victimization that he has trumpeted

(02:35:15):
on his Fox News program for years. The Republican House
Judiciary Committee Twitter account spent hours slabbing over the interview,
taking a victory lap of sorts for It's a new
generation of edge Lords and the A tweet from the
the Judiciary gop account is still up that just reads
Kanye period elon period Trump period, which my god, if

(02:35:40):
that's the state of the of the Republican Party, like
this your king yah ah. So at first, Kanye appeared
to relish in the T shirt controversy, writing on Instagram
that my one T shirt took all the attention. After

(02:36:01):
the T shirt incident, Adidas said that they were placing
its lucrative sneaker deal under review. The previous month, Kanye
exited his deal with the Gap, and you know several
contemporaries of Kanye did push back on this ship that
he was pulling um, including a rapper Sean Diddy Combs

(02:36:23):
who Can, who condemned the design in a video on
Instagram and said, don't wear the shirt, don't buy the shirt,
don't play with the shirt. This is not a joke. Um.
And what happened next took things to a new level
of grotesqueness. West spent the next few days spewing anti
Semitic vitriol online, first on on Instagram, where Kanye posted

(02:36:44):
screenshots from a private message exchange between him and Combs
where he suggested that Combs was being controlled by Jewish people, saying,
I'm gonna use you as an example to show the
Jewish people that told you to call me that no
one can threaten or influence me. So obviously not great,
playing at being influenced by yes bye bye, like by

(02:37:10):
fossil fuel billionaires essentially. Um, but yeah, obviously not playing
not great, playing right into the kind of ideas that
Jewish people like control into the entertainment industry and like
have direct influence on what people say, you know, basic
anti Semitism stuff. Um. So soon after this, his Instagram
account was suspended, and then after he was locked out

(02:37:32):
of his account, Kandie decided to re join Twitter dot
com after a two year hiatus, and it was welcomed
back by Elon Musk saying well, welcome back friend um.
Minutes minutes later, minutes after elon is welcoming of Elon
of of of minutes minutes later after after Elon's welcoming

(02:37:57):
of of of Kanye West, Cannie tweeted, I'm a bit
sleepy tonight, which is a weird way to open this tweet.
By the way, I'm a bit sleepy tonight. Okay, but
what but when I wake up, I'm going death con
three on Jewish people, Jewish jew Jewish people in all caps.

(02:38:18):
The funny thing is is that I can't actually be
anti Semitic because black people are actually jew Also, you guys,
I don't say the whole word jewey. That was a
that was a TV joke. That wasn't Garrison being You
guys have twyted with me and tried to black ball

(02:38:38):
anyone who are whoever opposes your agenda, with the follow
up tweet saying, who do you think created cancel culture?
Which so that's also Okay, I I do want to
stop at that. That is a much deeper Nazi reference
than you might guess. There's a called the culture of Critique.
There was a deep understanding among the gi Nazis back

(02:39:01):
in the twenties and thirties that literary criticism that like
the idea of sort of cultural criticism, that these were
all Jewish plots in order to like, you know, it's
actually similar to a lot of what the rights is today,
in order to like make white people feel bad and
shamed about their culture um Nazis. Today, there's a book
called a culture of the Culture of Critique or a
culture of Critique that's about the same thing. This is

(02:39:25):
actually a really deep idea. And Robert, are you saying
that the cultural Marxists at the Frankfurt School invented political
correctness to undermine Western civilization? Now I'm saying that, yes,
But I'm also saying in a deeper sense that the
Jews invented the concept of feeling bad about bad things
in order to make white people feel bad about conquering

(02:39:45):
the world, which was the original. That's that's that's the
o G ship. Before we water this ship down, before
before it becomes cultural Marxism back when it's good old
fashioned cultural Bolshevism. Yes, cultur So that's the one version. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
that's the that's the I don't know the iPhone, you

(02:40:09):
know what I'm saying. You want you want a BlackBerry racism? Yeah,
that's right. So this is basically a lot of like
textbook anti semitism um mixed in with some black Hebrew
Israelite shit um about you know, being the true chosen
people of God, kind of akin to like the if
people listen to the show, they'll they might be familiar

(02:40:30):
with like the Nazi Christian identity idea of white Christians
being the real Israelites. Here, Yeah, it started, so we
get the start of black Israelism in the Northeast into
the Midwest. I think it's Kansas and New York City
are two of the big early cities in the eighteen nineties,
and it's like it's number one anti Semitic from the start.

(02:40:54):
An awful lot of it is based around like a
hatred of Jewish people, um. But it's also this like
idea that there's X number thirteen lost is tribes of
Israel and then the black people are the lost tribes
of Israel, and so there would be mixes of like
taking actual elements of like Hebrew religious worship and uh

(02:41:16):
mixing them in with kind of weirder stuff. Anyway, it's
it's it's has a long history. It is concentrated. Like
the part of this like if you have ever spent
time in like New York, like Philly or whatever, you
have run into black israel Lites on the street like there,
it's it's a thing that you will encounter. Um, there's
not a ton of them. I think most essens like

(02:41:37):
twenty or thirty thousand, but they're they're very vocal. Yeah.
The phrase now with like most of the Hebrew reals lights.
It's like the two children in Israel are the black
Latino and this so called Native American or this. Yeah,
so it's this this idea and here's where here's where
it gets tantalizing and complicated in I'm saying this as

(02:41:59):
a black man. You know, is you open your Bible
and at the back of every bible got a map,
and you're looking at it and you're going, well, is
where the ship take place? Right? So you're like, well,
how come y'all only teaching us about Europeans. You only

(02:42:21):
talking about every painting got these white people. Everybody. You're
just like, no, this don't this ship don't make sense,
this can't be it. And then I'm getting I'm getting
deep cuts here. It's like you. And then you get
into the Book of Acts, where it's supposed to be
the Bible, like where the gospel spreads. And the first
time they leave, the first time they leave Israel is

(02:42:41):
Stephen meeting in Ethiopian, just meeting the Ethiopian Unich, and
the Ethiopian goes to where where was Moses when Moses?
Others back in the Exitus story, where was Moses? Where
did Moses go when he fled? When he fled Egypt,
he went to Midian, he went to Ethiopia. So you're like,
this ship took place in Africa, right, and at the time,
we you still believe like the Sinai Peninsula as North Africa,

(02:43:06):
you know, so you're like, these are brown skin people.
Why is your narrative and everything you tell me about
white people? So if you still believe, if you were
still sort of like in all of the story and
the person thislike this subversive you know, socialist, you know,

(02:43:28):
anti imperialistic, ampi, anti empire character of Jesus that you
know you're Arab and Muslim friends still understand as as
you know, as he says like a person, then you're like, yo,
we might be talking about the same man here, and
he was as brown as us. So and if you're

(02:43:49):
like and if you're like the God, you're like, dude,
the gospel with South we hit, we hit in Ethiopia,
there's accident the first Christian city, like at some point
you like, the ship didn't go north until four years later.
So you you just draw this conclusion that like, if
you're gonna box me out, my only response, if you're
gonna box me out of all of the clear history

(02:44:12):
that took place among brown skinned people, then I'm gonna
be like, I have no choice but to be like, well,
fuck y'all, not a true Israel over here. And if
you read again, if you you can't not possibly be
black and read the book of Exodus and be like, well, ship,
that's us. You know what I'm saying. You can't like,
how do you not see it? You know? So so

(02:44:34):
it's it's so alluring, especially again when you go to
the when the white pass are talking about like, well,
your poverty is your choice, and hey, well you know,
and your reform Calvinist person was like, well that was
the Lord's divine will. You were you know, you were
divinely ordained, you know, to be suffering people. And at
least at least you got the Gospel because you were

(02:44:55):
a slave. Maybe God was solving. You're like, fuck that
that can't possibly be to God I'm reading about in
this book, you know, so you're like, Okay, well I
guess you know what I'm saying. And then it's like
I'm I'm I'm ranting on this because I feel like
like it's especially for this audience to really understand that context.
You this this street in a lot of ways, like
it became like this street religion. It gives these young

(02:45:18):
men dignity, you know what I'm saying. You're you're offering
them a sense of history and importance and dignity and
and and order that we you usually just get from
the streets. You know what I'm saying. It's not happening
in the Sunday school because at church that's just oh black,
that's just old women singing these hymns in the big hats,

(02:45:40):
it's like I'm not getting that sort of like that
that masculine hit, if you will, you know what I'm saying.
So like this a lot of this faith like it
really it attracts young men because it's like it's like
we it's like we needed that order, We needed somebody
to like come and like be a little more military
about us. But then tied this longer history. Because if

(02:46:00):
the only history you hear about yourself is your oppression
for somebody to be like, no, you've chosen people to God,
you're gonna be like, well, hell yeah, you know. And
then again, I can't stress this enough. Part of this
is in reaction to what white evangelical did by trying
to erase brown people from the history. You know what
I'm saying. It's like I'm I can't. I'm like, that's

(02:46:21):
clear he clearly your picture is Michael Angelo's booth thing
of of that's that's an Italian man like that can't
possibly be the dude in these books, you know. So
you like, I mean he was Jesus was black, Like
I would like you just that's your only conclusion, and

(02:46:43):
you like and these people are saying, yeah, you're right, absolutely,
and you're like, well, well, shoot, I'll rock with y'all,
you know, and it's it's it's definitely unclear what the
extent of Kanye's belief and stuff around black Israelite type
stuff is. He's still has a lot of the evangelical
type stuff going on and what he's saying, so he

(02:47:06):
could have just picked up these types of things from
cultural osmosis. We'll hear a little bit more about what
he has to say about this in the next episode,
but we're gonna have to I'm gonna have to call
it there. That's going to be a day and join
us after the weekend for a special special part two
on on on the Feed talking about more of the same,

(02:47:29):
more of the same thing, but getting slightly worse. Um.
And it turns out when you get kicked out Twitter
that that doesn't stop you from saying bad things. You
just start saying that other places. Um. So anyway, yeah,
that's that. I very impressed, Garrison. Hey, we'll be back

(02:47:51):
Monday with more episodes every week from now until the
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