It Could Happen Here Weekly

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What girls in the forest, our imagination and our family bonds.
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(00:21):
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(00:42):
get your podcasts, and make sure you leave a review.
Whence the last time you took a time out? I'm
Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair
Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender
division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr
Addina Roocar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an

(01:03):
expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and Burnout.
We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a
production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, repealing back
the layers around why society makes it so easy to
guard men's time like it's diamonds and treat women's time
like it's infinite like sand. And so, whether you're partnered

(01:24):
with or without children, or in a career where you
want more boundaries, this is the place for you, for
people of all family structures. So take this time out
with us to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim
your time. Listen to Time Out, a fair play podcast
on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

(01:45):
you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and
I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.
So every episode of the week that just happened is
here in one convenient with somewhat less ads package for
you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.
If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

(02:07):
there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you
can make your own decisions. You crack open a doctor pepper,
you know it'll only make you more thirsty in the
long run, but you need some liquid in your mouth,
and you're saving You're remaining fifteen gallons for a quick shower.
The U haul is finally almost packed up. You may
be able to make it down to San Francisco in time.
Living in Redwood Valley has been nice the last few years.

(02:30):
It's a beautiful place. But in August of two the
drought became too much. Late last year, California's new far
right governor lifted all water restrictions on farmers. This sparked
a new statewide race to use what water was available
before it ran out. Lake Mendesino was already low at
the beginning of the year, and for the first time
in your memory, it is now completely empty. San Francisco

(02:51):
isn't doing great either, but it's much better off than
where you live. The Russian River Watershed relies almost entirely
on rainfall and is isolated from state and federal a loqueducts.
After the governor lifted water restrictions, new almond and pot
farms started sucking up groundwater, and by the end of
the summer they'd started pumping from the river to feed
their thirsty crops. By mid July, your town implemented a

(03:12):
twenty five gallon limit per person per day. That's about
as much water as you go through during a five
minute shower. The first thing you sacrificed was your garden.
Then you stopped flushing after you peed. These tweaks added up, though,
and without water, the lifestyle you'd love to just stopped
being possible. Your brother in San Francisco offered to let
you move in with him. You weren't a fan of

(03:33):
the big city, but at least you'd be able to
shower again. And so you find yourself sipping an empty
soda can and loading up your last few boxes into
the U haul. You give your brother a quick call,
saying you're all packed up and about to head out.
He sounds worried and mentioned something about his school letting
new teachers go do to budget cuts. You can't really
afford to think about that. Now, you just need to leave,

(03:54):
since you're all sweaty from loading the U haul the
last few days. You decided to hop into the shower
one last time. Knew it wouldn't last long, but you
still seemed surprised when the water turned off after what
felt like only two minutes. You quickly dry off and
grab some clean clothes from your backpack and throw your
damp towel into the passenger seat of the truck. You
say goodbye to your home of ten years and to
your old succulent plants, and begin the three hour drive

(04:17):
down to San Francisco. Water scarcity is a problem you're
probably already familiar with, especially if you live in the Southwest.
California has dealt with particularly brutal droughts over the last
twenty years, and the Golden States water problems could be
about to get much much worse, because in just a

(04:37):
few days, California might find itself helmed by a far
right governor with a near religious hatred of water conservation.
Electoral politics are not generally a big focus on this show,
but what's going on in the state of California could
have serious implications for many people, including those outside the
West Coast. The ongoing recall campaign against Governor Gavin Newsom

(04:58):
started out in June of publican politicians and activists unhappy
with Newsom's handling of the pandemic. Newsom's opposition to President
Trump's cracked down on undocumented immigrants also played a role.
This is actually the fifth recall attempt against Newsom since
he took office in twenty nineteen, but it's the first
one to gain traction. It's fueled in part by Newsom's

(05:18):
own hypocrisy and hubris. On November six the recall effort
gained court approval for a signature gathering extension, and later
that night, Governor Newsom went to a birthday party for
a Sacramento lobbyist and friend at French Laundry, a pricing
Napa Valley restaurant. Soon after, photo surfaced of Newsom mingling
maskless at the packed restaurant. He faced heavy criticism and apologized,

(05:40):
but the damage was done. Republicans latched onto this as
an opportunity to finally push the recall effort through. The
recall petition, which had only fifty five thousand and five
eight signatures on the day of the dinner, had nearly
half a million a month after the November sixth incident.
California's recall process is probably the least democratic one in
the unit it states. Gathering signatures to authorize a recall

(06:03):
election is a pretty standard thing, but California has among
the lowest signature requirements and states that allow for the
recall of an official. Most states require that the recall
campaign must gather signatures equal to of the votes cast
in the last election. California requires just twelve percent for
executive officials. The li Times notes quote that might have
been a high bar in nineteen eleven when the population

(06:25):
was scattered across the seven hundred and seventy mile length
of the state. But is it too low in one
when petitions for ballot measures are gathered and moss by
paid staff and parking lots. And That's not the only
questionable aspect of California's recall process. On recall election day,
voters will face two questions on the ballot. First, yes
or no on whether to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office. Second,

(06:48):
and this one is technically optional, If so, who among
the forty six candidates do you want to take his place?
The first question is decided by a simple majority, just
like other ballot measures, but when it comes to the
second question, the percentage requirements change. The replacement candidate doesn't
need more than fifty percent to win, so if more
than fifty percent of the voters say yes on the

(07:08):
recall question, Governor Newsom must step down. Even if he
has more overall support than any other individual challenger on
the ballot. The replacement question is determined by who gets
the most votes among the challengers on the ballot, which
Newsom cannot be on. So forty nine point nine percent
of the voters can back Mr. Newsom, and he can
still lose to someone who is supported by only say

(07:29):
of the electorate or even a smaller fraction. For other
California elections, including special elections triggered by the death or
resignation of an official, a candidate cannot win without the
support of a majority of voters. If a candidate doesn't
win over fifty percent outright, then the top to compete
in a runoff election. Not the case for California's recall process.

(07:49):
Organizers of the recall campaign submitted two point one million
signatures by the March seventeenth filing deadline. One million, seven
hundred nineteen thousand, nine hundred signatures were ultimately determined to
have been valid, which was enough to trigger the recall.
The deadline for casting your vote is September. If the
recall succeeds, the new governor would be in office for
the remainder of Mr. Newsom's term through January second three,

(08:13):
and that leaves a lot of time for executive factory,
especially considering the new front runner. Far right radio talk
show host and frequent Fox guest Larry Elder, has emerged
as the likely candidate to replace Newsom in the event
the recall goes through. Elder, who was sixty nine, jumped
into the race relatively late in the game during mid July.
At that time, it was more of a toss up

(08:35):
between Republican candidates Kevin Falconer, a former San Diego mayor,
and businessman John Cox, who lost badly to Newsom in
the gubernatorial election. Assemblyman Kevin Kylie and former athlete and
media personality Caton Jenner pulled less well. But as Larry
Elder entered the race, he almost immediately became the front
runner in polls and raised lots of money from small donors,

(08:56):
and the three weeks after he announced his campaign he
raised nearly four and a half million dollars according to
fundraising disclosures. That's more than every other Republican challenger, sans
multimillionaire businessman John Cox, who's largely funding his own campaign.
Elder has been a central figurehead of the right wing
radio talk show scene since the nineties, but has always
been hesitant to run for public office, deeming the state

(09:18):
of California ungovernable due to its liberal supermajority, But after
talking with his friend and mentor Dennis Praeger of the
neo fascist propaganda outlet Praeger You, he figured it might
be worth a shot, and has expressed desire to use
the emergency powers of the governor to push the state
right words. Elder was born in Los Angeles, but moved
to Cleveland to attend law school and opened his own

(09:39):
firm in nineteen eighty. Elder's career began as a bit
of an accident. He'd been invited on a Cleveland station
as a guest. He did so well on air that
when the regular host went on vacation the following week,
the program director asked Elder to fill in. Soon enough,
Elder had his own weekly time slot on the Cleveland station.
In the early nineties, a guest host from Los Angeles

(10:00):
list Dennis Prager, visited Cleveland. Elder quickly impressed Praeger with
his on air wit and talent, coupled with the uniqueness
of a black man openly expressing extreme conservative views. Praeger
persuaded his home station KBC in Los Angeles to give
Elder a shot. Quoting The l A Times, Elder returned
to his hometown in nine four, two years after the

(10:20):
civil unrest, following the acquittal of the officers who beat
Rodney King and in the midst of the O. J.
Simpson murder case. The program director at rival KFI, David G. Hall,
felt KBC made a creative move bringing on this guy
from South Central who swung the other way on race.
Almost from the beginning, the self proclaimed sage from South
Central whipped up a fewer. He mixed soundbites from Representative

(10:42):
Maxine Waters with a recording of a barking dog. He said,
Blacks exaggerate the significance of racism, while women did the
same in regards to sexism. For nearly four years, Elder
has slapped many members of his own race in the
face on radio, belittling them as whiners or losers, holding
himself up as a model of African American excellence. He's
become a darling of white listeners who seemed to almost

(11:04):
gush when they telephone him on k ABC Talk Radio.
They are astonished to find a black man who not
only isn't going to chastise them, but who also often
agreed with them, a black man who declared that race
was no longer a significant factor in American society. Elder
also doesn't believe that racial profiling exists. This is despite
telling The Times editorial Board that police pulled him over

(11:25):
between seventy five and a hundred times the first year
he had his driver's license. Elder's regressive, provocative content angered
mine Angelinos and black citizens of California let a boycott
of advertisers on the show. It worked, and by the
late nineties the show had begun losing millions in ad revenue.
But thanks to syndication, changing networks, podcasts, and TV appearances,

(11:46):
Elder has been able to remain a central figure of
the right wing content sphere. He most recently starred in
a video series for far right propaganda organization and literal cult,
The Epoch Times. According to Elder's campaign, the central recall
is as he is focusing on our rampant crime, rising homelessness,
out of control costs of living, water shortages, disastrous wildfires,

(12:07):
rolling brown outs, and repressive COVID restrictions. For this show,
we'll be focusing on the last three as they relate
to the rapidly shifting and hostile climate. For the past
thirty years, Elder has been a classic conservative climate denier.
He had a whole section of his website devoted to
debunking the Gore bull warming myth. Like Al Gore bullshit
warming myth, Yeah, it's a bad pun. In a CNN

(12:30):
interview prior to the two thousand eight election, Elder called
global warming a false myth, while disparaging and making fun
of both John McCain and George W. Bush for discussing
global warming is a serious issue. However, more recently, Elder
has shifted his rhetoric around the climate. In an interview
last month, he expressed belief that some warming is taking place,
but by using old soft denialist talking points climate is

(12:51):
always changing. Of course, the climate is changing. The question
is what do we do about it? Do we deal
with the effects of it, or do we force feed
renewables based economy down the throats of people, jacking up
the price energy a disproportionate pain for poor people. But
of course there's climate change, and the climate is getting
warmer and maybe about a degree or so in the
last several years, and it will likely continue. He adds,
what I don't believe in is climate change alarmism. He

(13:12):
also said that he was not sure whether climate change
is making wildfires worse. Quote fires have gotten worse because
the failure of this governor to engage in sensible fire suppression.
Elder also blames California's rising housing costs on environmental extremists
that jack up the cost of housing so that developers
have to wait and wait and get sued over and over.
Agains that finally, when the home is built, it's way
more expensive than otherwise it would be without these environmental

(13:34):
rules and regulations. Despite the slight back pedaling on climate
for better media optics, his potential policies on the topic
are just as horrendous as one might assume. In a
recent video news conference, Elder declared that he would in
the war on oil and gas and the attack on
the logging industry, will also reducing regulation on fracking and
stopping California's growing efforts to expand when in solar power,

(13:55):
which he calls not very efficient. Elder did not mention
climate change during his news conference. Water scarcity will be
an increasingly severe concern for California in the coming years.
Drought is already a major political talking point among voters
and politicians, and it creates another rift between city folk
and rural farmers. Farmers are having a harder time growing
crops and feel threatened by water rationing. They're frustrated by

(14:18):
the thought that the Democrats running cities will always prioritize
pumping extra water into population dense areas. Meanwhile, people in
cities are concerned they will be forced to cut back
on personal water use, as almond farmers suck up tons
of water to feed their droops. Just building more dams
and water catchment systems or aquifers may seem like a
solution and have done properties. Some of those things might help,

(14:40):
but they can't make up for a lack of rainfall
and snow melt. Relying on river water has its own problems.
Pulling too much from fresh water that flows through rivers
allows for extra salt water to intrude from the bay,
and ocean salinity in the water negatively impacts local ecosystems
and dirties what is supposed to be a freshwater source.
Drought is simultaneously pushing migratory a fish species like chinook

(15:01):
salmon and steelhead trout closer to the brink of extinction.
Large numbers of fish are dying off because the rivers
they rely on as spawning habitats are too warm or
too low. Anxiety around water, droughts, and crops as among
the issues driving some people to vote yes on the recall.
A poll conducted last July by the Public Policy Institute
of California found that residents sited drought and water supply

(15:23):
as their top environmental concern, with about twenty calling it
their chief concern, which makes it poll well above the
related problems of wildfires, air pollution, and climate change. Republican
politicians have been using anxiety around drought to drum up
support for the recall by blaming the current situation on Newsom.
The original recall petition against Newsom from early warned that

(15:45):
the governor quote seeks to impose additional burdens on our state,
including rationing our water use. Last April, Governor Newsom did
declare a drought emergency into northwest California counties. The order
allowed state officials to restrict the amount of water divert
from the Russian River and authorized the relocation of fish
stranded in drying puddles. The local county government asked residents

(16:07):
to use no more than fifty gallons per day per person,
but Newsom himself hasn't mandated water rationing for individual consumers,
though he has asked Californians to voluntarily cut consumption by
fifteent and has suggested that statewide restrictions could be on
the table if conditions worsen heading into the fall, Newsom
in the Department of Water Resources as a whole do
have ideas in mind for tackling this issue. Last year,

(16:30):
Newsom authorized an eleven billion dollar water infrastructure project building
a single thirty mile tunnel under the Sacramento, San Joaque
and River Delta. The project, which has been discussed for years,
is being pushed forward in hopes that it will protect
the Delta's existing wetland ecosystem and supply enough fresh, clean
water to be diverted south for the rest of the state.
But the tunnel concept has faced opposition both locally and

(16:52):
from conservation minded folks. Some residents in the Delta regency
it is just a water grab to meet the demands
of southern California and the ag culture industry, while the
needs of those up north are being ignored. Ecologically focused
critics say it could still increase salinity in the Delta
and result in notable harm for the ecosystem. Newsom has
more recently discussed other action and legislation to help mitigate

(17:14):
the continued drought, quoting the San Francisco Chronicle. In July,
the governor signed a state budget that includes five point
one billion dollars over four years for new water infrastructure
and drought preparation projects, including money to repair delivery canals,
help farmers irrigrate crops more efficiently, and start water recycling projects. Still,
Newsom's recent actions have done little to quell anger among

(17:34):
many farmers who stay the state's failure to plan for
another major drought just a few years after it exited
the last one has put them on the brink of ruin.
Ernest Buddy Mendez, a lifelong farmer in Fresno County and
Republican county supervisor, said he was forced to let hundreds
of acres where he used to grow cotton and wheat
dry up this year after his allotment of river water
was slashed to zero. He's relying on groundwater pumped from

(17:56):
wells to keep his grove of almond trees alive. Mendez
said he hasn't a aided whom to support as a
replacement candidate, and the recall just that he will vote
hell yeah to remove newsom. Let's face, A newsom dam
is a four letter word, Mendez said. We haven't done
anything in twenty years about building storage. California already does
have one of the most extensive damn systems in the country,

(18:17):
with nearly fifteen hundred reservoirs. Building new on river dams
would cost billions of dollars if such efforts even survive
legal challenges, which are all but guaranteed. Amid the struggle
to save endangered fish species, there are not many areas
left that would make sense or be sustainable to build
a new large reservoir. One other, more cost effective solution
could be to store more water collected during wet years

(18:38):
and underground aquifers. One of the solutions to this problem
is the same as the solution to a number of
other climate related problems, which is that we simply have
to cut the amount of resources we're consuming. Whether that
means reducing our energy use or cutting down on wasteful
water use. You can only build so many dams. The
trend of California farmers growing thirstier crops has made an
existing problem much worse. Today, the state produces three times

(19:01):
as many acres of almonds as it did twenty five
years ago. With California most likely entering a third straight
year of disappointing rainfall and snow melt, anxiety around drought
and increased severity of water restrictions won't get any better,
And if the Lenina weather pattern hits the West Coast,
as it's poised to, that would mean the western US
will have a drier and hotter winter than average. Last August,

(19:22):
water regulators made an unprecedented move to begin cracking down
on water use in the sprawling Sacramento River in San
Joaquin River watersheds, ordering for farmers, water districts, and other landowners,
including the City of San Francisco, to stop drawing water
from the basins of the river or face penalties of
up to ten thousand dollars a day. The city has
enough water in its reservoirs to meet demand for at

(19:44):
least a couple of years. And stored water is not
affected by the state restrictions. Water agencies also can seek
an exemption from curtailments of human health or safety or compromised.
This does hit rural areas and agriculture the hardest because
most cities have alternative supplies and stored water to tap into.
Looking to attract voters, Larry Elder and other Republican challengers

(20:04):
to NEWSOM have made it a recurring point to say
that farmers should not have to endure such cuts, but
they don't really give any perspective solutions to prevent rationing.
When water levels at reservoirs, lakes, and wells are all plummeting,
Larry Elder said drought is not inevitable and said he
supports building more reservoirs and dams to store runoff, but
he has also a voice support for permitting to salinization projects.

(20:26):
The salinization devastates ocean life, costs much more than other alternatives,
and uses tons of energy. Also, soon it will be
made obsolete by increasing focus on water recycling. Explaining to
salonization quickly, ocean water is collected and run through pipes
to remove the largest solids, and then pump through reverse
osmosis filters to remove salt, while fish and other creatures

(20:46):
die upon being sucked in or just from the force
of the water flow. In a report studying it is
salonization plant in the early two thousands, it was found
that on average over a five year period, nineteen point
four billion larva were caught up at intakes and about
two point seven million fish, along with marine mammals and
sea turtles were killed by intake equipment. For every gallon
of drinking water, the salinization leaves another gallon of salty

(21:09):
brine behind. The plants then just mix that with two
parts ocean water before pumping it back into the ocean.
These measures can negatively impact the environment for this generation
and generations to come. This type of resource extract of
thinking reflects how we got into the problem in the
first place. Battling over water allotments will only get us
so far when dealing with lackluster rainfall. What can help

(21:31):
is permaculture programs to help farmers learn ways to irrigate
more effectively and cultivate healthier soils that retain water, moving
away from water heavy crops like almonds and towards more
sustainable and moisture efficient crops must also be done if
we want to stave off the worst effects. Putting Larry
Elder in office won't make it rain, but it will
put the state at least another year further behind on
taking the kind of action necessary to ensure California remains habitable.

(22:04):
What's up, guys, I'm a Shot Balau and I am
Troy Millions and we are the host of the Earnier
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the latest trends and finance. We hold court and have
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(22:25):
triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in death
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Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect Podcast Network,
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get your podcasts. After thirty years, it's time to return

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to the halls of West Beverly High and hang out
at the peach pit. On the podcast nine O two
one OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a
rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two
one oh. From the very beginning, we get to tell
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two one OMG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey leath the listeners.
Tig here. Last season on Lethal Lit, you might remember,
I came to Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my

(24:15):
aunt best name and making sure justice was finally served.
But I hadn't counted on a rash of new murders
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(24:36):
all signs point to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls.
If this game is just starting, you better believe I'm
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Catch up on season one of the hit murder mystery
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then tune in for all new thrills in season two,

(24:58):
dropping weekly starting February nine. Subscribe now to never miss
an episode. Listen to Leave the Lit on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The last few months in San Francisco have been honestly
better than you expected. Still hot and dry, but now
that you're in fall, the heat has become manageable. In
the Bay area, at least, staying with your brother has

(25:20):
been actually really nice. The first few showers felt like luxury.
Recently he's had less of a good time. He found
out he was getting laid off right before the school
year started. He told me. Over fifteen thousand other teachers
have been fired as a part of the governor's new
reform schools program. The teacher's union is fighting it, but

(25:41):
your brother isn't too optimistic of regarding the outcome. He's
been looking for new work, and meanwhile, you've gotten a
shitty retail job to help with bills while you decide
on what hospitals you want to apply to. You don't
really miss your old MS job in Redwood Valley. When
you finally do get back into medical care, you really
prefer something in a hospital clinic setting as opposed to

(26:01):
the extra stress inherent in emergency services. The one chance
you have had to use your medical skills since moving
was during the fires last September and October back up north.
They got really bad and hundreds of thousands of people evacuated.
Down south. Some old activist friends of yours from college
made their own fire relief slash mutual aid set up

(26:24):
to give out clothes and food and to help people
displaced by the fires. You haven't talked much with your
old college buddies in the past few years, but upon
hearing of the relief effort, you happily offered up your
skills to help with minor medical issues in a smell
medic tent they set up. It was the first time
you've helped with anything related to protests organizing since he
moved up to Redwood Valley ten years ago. It was

(26:46):
oddly refreshing. Politics hasn't been a major part of your
life since college, But speaking of politics, midterms are finally
this month. The past year has felt like it stretched
on forever. Your brother and his union buddies have been
doing canvassing for a few progressive city council candidates that
might actually get a shot at getting in. You haven't

(27:07):
had time to adjust to San Francisco's local political scene,
and honestly, you're not sure if you really care to.
You have been keeping half an eye on the big
state electoral races, though, which feels kind of weird. You
know there's no way the Republican government will get reelected,
not here in California. One thing that has gotten you're
worried is the weekly anti election fraud rallies that have

(27:29):
been happening in l A ever since October. The governor,
surrounded by state troopers, has made it down himself a
few times to drop up support from his fan base,
and after the rallies, roving gangs of far right extremists
have gone around randomly attacking homeless encampments. You heard that
just last week after a Sunday rally, three people had

(27:49):
to be rushed to the emergency room. It's now just
a week before election day. You're on the bus home
from your job at the vintage clothing store when you
receive a message on signal from one year old Call
Knowledge Mutual Aid buddies you met up with again during
the fire relief effort. The message reads, hey, are you free?
On election Day. You hadn't really thought about the day itself,

(28:10):
you respond, maybe nothing really planned yet. Your friend replies
with a fat wall of text. My affinity group and
I are heading down to l A on Tuesday. There's
a big stop, the Steel type rally happening, and where
it is, lots of proud Boys are gonna show up.
Comrades in l A have put out some calls for support,
so my crew is going to go down and probably

(28:33):
bring some medical stuff. If you want to come, we
got an extra seat in the van. The thought of
driving down to Los Angeles to deal with proud boys
doesn't excite you, especially on an already stressful day. You
think about it for a few minutes, images of the
people maimed during and after the recent rallies floods your mind.

(28:53):
Your buddies no more about organizing and protests than you do,
But you have more medical training. You side, You'll do it,
You reply, I'll come with and pack some extra iffects
and tourniquets. Among the issues of Republican recall, challengers have

(29:14):
raised to attack NEWSOM force mismanagement has leomed large among
the recent complaints. This type of thing hearkens back to
Trump's old habit of blaming the governor and not raking
enough leaves for California's fiery plight. On a larger scale,
this can be seen as part of an effort to
push all the blame of wildfires off of oil gas

(29:34):
and our transformation of the climate and onto a simple
lack of fire prevention measures. This narrative, of course, makes
the fossil fuel industry more happy. The thing is, all
of these things are contributing factors for California's wildfire problem.
Climate changed caused hotter temperatures and droughts makes fires easier
to catch and spread, and inadequate force management, plus above

(29:58):
ground power lines do the same. Just because there are
bad faith attacks on Newsom doesn't mean there aren't actual
failures he's made as governor, especially in relation to the forests.
An investigation from CAP Radio and California MPR published last
June found out Newsom had grossly misrepresented and fled out

(30:18):
lied about his promises of new wildfire prevention efforts. Elements
of the piece were of course used by Larry Elder
and the Right to push for support of the recall,
but the article itself is a very fine piece of journalism.
Back when Newsom first took office in January twenty nine,
one of the first things he did was signed on
the executive Order overhauling how California handles wildfire prevention and

(30:42):
forest management. The measures included removal of hazardous dead trees,
vegetation clearing, creation of fuel breaks and community defensible spaces,
and creation of ingress and egress corridors. In January twenty,
a year after Newsom's initial announcement, the Governor's often claimed
in a press release that under the executive Orders priority projects,

(31:04):
ninety thousand acres got treated with these fire prevention measures,
But according to data attained by cap Radio and MPR,
the actual number of acres treated by these priority projects
was only eleven thousand, three hundred and ninety nine, just
thirteen percent of the number Newsome boasted about, quoting the
piece by cap Radio quote, data shows cal Fire's fuel

(31:26):
reduction output dropped by half and twenty twenty two, levels
below Governor Jerry Brown's final year in office. At the
same time, Newsom slashed roughly one hundred and fifty million
dollars from cow Fire's wildfire prevention budget. In four point
three million acres burned, the most in California's recorded history.

(31:47):
That was more than double the previous record set in
twenty eighteen, when the camp fire destroyed the town of Paradise,
ultimately killing eighty five people. A decade ago, cal Fire
was treating a poultry seventeen thousand acres annually. That number
has steadily climbed, though Newsom misrepresented the number of acres
treated in his priority projects. The overall amount of wildfire

(32:08):
mitigation work carried out by CalFire spiked in his first
year of office to sixty four thousand acres, but in
twenty twenty, fuel reduction totals plummeted to less than thirty
two thousand acres, a roughly fifty percent drop unquote. Multiple
factors contributed to twenty twenties subpar fire prevention and reduction efforts.

(32:28):
In twenty nineteen, the year with the large number of
acres treated in recent history, the state budget allotted for
three hundred and fifty five million dollars for wildfire prevention
and resource management, but after the COVID nineteen pandemic hit
California in early twenty Newsom cut the budget by down
to two hundred and three million on top of the

(32:50):
budget cuts, The fires themselves made prevention work more challenging.
Twenty twenties, wildfire season started out early, which resulted in
less time to do prescribed burns and thinnings because the
same teams that are tasked with prevention and fuel reduction
often also serve as firefighters once the fires break out.
As of Mae, cal Fire has treated over twenty three

(33:13):
tho acres throughout the year. This puts California on a
trajectory better than last year's total, but not as high
as the sixty thousand plus acres treated in Newsom has
been trying to make up for his missteps and gross exaggerations.
Quoting the Cap Radio report again quote, Newsom is trying
to play catch up with the state enjoying an unexpected surplus.

(33:36):
Newsome proposed two billion in spending on wildfires and emergency preparedness,
with one point two billion going towards wildfire resiliency in
the upcoming budget. Experts say the increase in prevention spending
could help the state get closer to a less dangerous
wildfire season over time, but they also expressed concern over

(33:58):
whether the state will sustain that commitment for years to
come unquote. Revelations about Newsom's and cow fires lies and
lackluster force management were quickly jumped on by Larry Elder
and other Republican challengers as an easy way to attack
Newsom and to move the conversation about wildfires away from
climate change. Elder has said he has quot unquote no

(34:20):
idea why more prevention and reduction measures aren't being done,
and when he becomes governor, he'll be quote implementing these
common sensical kinds of plans so that we can reduce
the severity of these fires unquote. Elder has given no
concrete plans on what measures he'll be shooting to implement,
or any indication on how much money will be directed

(34:41):
to prevent or fight fires. On the noted budgets. Elder
has said that the more recent spending on wind and
solar power has left quote less money for removing trees
and putting power lines underground, the kind of things that
would make these fires less intense unquote, and he promises
to drastically cut spending unrenew wibles while also investing more

(35:02):
in oil and gas. To be clear, Newsom's upcoming budget
contains billions for both fire prevention, slash fuel reduction, and
renewable energy such as wind and solar. Whoever ends up
governing California is not only in charge of local politics.
Like governors at other states. What happens in California affects

(35:22):
people across the country and even globally, whether that's wildfire
smoke traveling across continents or changes to supply chains and
industry rippling across the world. California is, after all, the
world's fifth largest economy. There are also political ramifications that
could affect the States as a whole if Elder gets
in office. The Senate is currently a fifty fifty split

(35:46):
between Republicans and Democrats, with Vice President Kamala Harris getting
the tie breaking vote. One of California senators is eighty
eight year old Diane Feinstein, the oldest active Senator. If
she dies in off or has to step down due
to medical reasons before her term is over, the governor
of California gets to appoint her replacement. If Elder appoints

(36:09):
a Republican, then the Senate will be back under Geop
control and give it his connections to the far right
media sphere. The list of potentials that Elder could appoint
is frightening. This is by no means inevitable even if
Elder gets into office. If he does, Finstein does have
the brief opportunity to step down and put a replacement

(36:29):
in before the new governor has sworn into office. However,
Feinstein has said she has no plans of doing so.
Reports of her declining health have become only more common
in recent years, but like many politicians and judges, she's
not keen on stepping aside, even to possibly help prevent
a disastrous outcome. Changes in the Senate are not required

(36:50):
for horrible outcomes. In the wake of an even brief
Elder governorship, his anti vax sentiments and planned to open
up the state and remove basically all COVID restrictions will
result in hospitals being pushed to max capacity. Elder has
said he has plans to appoint education officials similar to
former Secretary Betsy Devas, and judicial appointees like Conservative Supreme

(37:13):
Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Elder has stated his intention of
declaring states of emergency and using executive orders to push
through otherwise unpopular legislation. He has discussed plans to declare
an education emergency in order to fire upwards of twenty
one quote unquote bad teachers. Elder blames teacher unions for

(37:34):
quote protecting bad teachers, and in a recent interview stated,
quote someone told me that between five percent and seven
percent of public school teachers need to be fired. An
emergency declaration would give the power to get rid of
bad teachers faster than the system allows. Once you did that, automatically,
education would improve overnight unquote. Now, Elder is not specified

(37:57):
who had advised him on teacher terminations or how he
plans to weed out the so called bad teachers out
of the three thousand in the school system. He's also
touted plans to declare a homeless emergency, but his solutions
have nothing to do with actually helping homeless people. His
homeless emergency declaration would allow him to suspend the California

(38:19):
Environmental Quality Act, the long requiring environmental review of building projects.
Elders stated goal is to unleash developers and contractors without
environmental regulation, which he claims to quote trees developers and
contractors like criminals unquote, and allows building projects to get
suspended indefinitely, ultimately raising the cost of housing. In his opinion,

(38:43):
one of the more frightening aspects of Larry Elder is
his close ties to many far right propagandists. He's done
work for Praker You Epic times, and has been a
guest on Fox News at least two hundred and twenty
times in the past five years. In the last episode,
we discussed his friendship with Dennis Prager. Also, Dave Reuben
just recently campaigned for Elder at a recent rally, and

(39:05):
a month and a half ago, Elder was on Candice
Owens show discussing how the descendants of slave owners deserve
reparations for having their property i e. Black people stolen
from them when the slaves were freed. Those are his words,
not mine. What's probably most concerning is Elder's connection to
Stephen Miller. In fact, we wouldn't have Stephen Miller if

(39:28):
it were not for Larry Elder. Back in the late nineties,
a conservative student from Santa Monica High School would call
into Larry Elder's show to rant about his school's liberal culture. Reportedly,
the student would go around demanding staff and fellow students
regularly recite the Pledge of Allegiance. He railed against condom

(39:49):
giveaways and called Spanish language announcements quote a crutch preventing
Spanish speakers from standing on their own unquote. Young Californians
calling into Elder's show and agreeing with him wasn't very common,
and Elder ate it up. He loved talking with the
student so much that he let the kid on basically
any time he wanted a platform to rant and rave.

(40:11):
You know where this is going. That student was Stephen Miller.
According to Miller, he appeared on Elder's show sixty nine
times throughout his time in high school and university, and
calls Elder quote the one true guide I've always had unquote.
Miller's appearances on Elder's radio show made him a recognizable

(40:32):
figure in the larger conservative media world, helping him connect
with Steve Bannon and eventually President Trump. By extension, Elder
was Stephen Miller's on ramp to the White House. In
an email to Miller in Elder told him quote, I
hope to live to see the day when you become president.

(40:52):
When media has brought up his friendship with Stephen Miller,
Elder tries very quickly to change the subject when pushed
on the topic. In an interview, Elder shot back with quote,
why would you bring up Stephen Miller? I'm just wondering
what the agenda here is. What's the point, am I
somehow what a Nazi? A fascist? Unquote? I think that

(41:13):
says enough. The reason we haven't discussed the other candidates
in the recall election is because at this point, if
Newsom is recalled, it's absolutely certain that Elder will be
the one to succeed him. He has a twenty point
lead ahead other challengers, but that lead is still only
a tiny fraction of the total electorate, which demonstrates the
part of the problem in California's recall process. There are

(41:37):
other Republican challengers with concerning pasts and beliefs, lots of
anti mask, anti trans, anti VAXX, total disbelief, and climate
change people spouting q and on originated conspiracy claims advocating
the lie that the presidential election was stolen. And there's
even a Democrat challenger that plans to use the National
Guard to round up all homeless people and put them

(41:59):
in concentratetion camps. But Elder himself shares a lot of
those views and uses the fact that he's black as
a shield for criticism against his racist and nationalist policies
and ideas. We haven't even mentioned that. Last month Elder's
x fiance came out and said that Elder was extremely
abusive and had threatened her with a loaded gun. In

(42:21):
early August, polls were showing pretty much a neck and
neck for the first question on the ballot, yes or
no on the recall itself. A Survey USA pull from
that time even had respondents vote no on the recall
and fifty one percent vote yes to remove Newsom. Throughout
August and September, results started to flip the other direction
as ads against the recall hit the airwaves and internet.

(42:45):
The latest Survey USA poll has fifty focent voting no
one the recall and voting yes. Other polls hover around
the same ten to fifteen point lead for Newsome staying
in office. Now, with poles not going the way Elder
in the GOP would like, we're starting to see a new,
get familiar narrative being prepared on on my on my website,

(43:10):
elect Elder dot com. We have voter Integrity Project. We
have lawyers all set up, all ready to go to
foul lawsuits. In a timely fashion. The reason the lawsuits
did not did not work in the election. We know
what happened there is because the lawsuits were filed too
late and many of them were dismissed one procedural grounds.
Of course, don't like to overturn an election. So when
did you hear of anything suspicious? We've heard a lot

(43:31):
of things that have been suspicious so far. Go to
elect Elder dot com. We're gonna sick our lawyers on them,
foul lawsuits right away. They're gonna cheat. We know that.
Can I tell you what? So many people are angry
about the crime, about the homelessness, about the way he
shut down this state, about the fact that one third
of all small businesses, many of them are owned by
black and brown and Asian American people that they hear about,

(43:51):
but the declining call of the schools, about the fact
that people are leaving, rolling brownouts, lack of water. So
many people are angry. The number of people that are
gonna to recall this man's going to be so overwhelming.
So then even when they cheat, they're still gonna lose.
That's Larry Elder saying that if he doesn't win, that
means the election must have been stolen. Fox News has

(44:13):
been promoting the same idea the past month. All of
it is in the vein of the stop the Steel
movement post presidential election, culminating with the attempted insurrection on
January six. Here's Elder again on Fox News in early September.
But you're right, I am concerned about voter fraud, and
that's why I'm asking people to go to elect Elder

(44:36):
dot com. That's my website. We have a voter integrity
project set up with a bunch of lawyers ready to
foul lawsuits if anybody sees anything suspicious. Big election fraud
conspiracy proponent and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich was one
of the first people to chime in to stoke disinformation
about the recall election. And I think this may well

(44:56):
be the most rigged stay wide election we've seen probably
at least a half century. And I think people should
look carefully of this because it's pretty good evidence that
if Newsom is in a straight, honest count, he probably
has a good chance of losing. But if they can
stuff every batto on box in California and they can
cheat in every way possible, and of course this type

(45:19):
of propaganda has made it onto the most watched cable
news show on air, Tucker Carlson, California does not get
the credit it deserves for the corruption that's endemic there.
It's a one party state and they act like it.
And You've got to have concerns about whether this recall
election will be free and fair. Are you concerned, Well,
of course I'm concerned, Tucker. I'm involved in election integrity

(45:40):
efforts throughout the United States, and I'm also a member
of the Republican National Committee. So we have a team
of lawyers that is ready to deploy throughout the state
here and we are monitoring things every single day. Just
a couple of hours ago, I filed a lawsuit to
intervene in a challenge to the constitutionality of the recall
statute because, frankly, I don't trust the Secretary of State
or the Attorney General, who are both appointed by the governor,

(46:02):
to defend him in this regard, and so we are
going to be jumping on every potential opportunity to do
that and fight back against the Democrats. Of course, they
are playing fast and lews. We've seen some very alarming
scenes of three D ballots bundled together in the car
of a person with a gun and some drugs, and
so we are definitely looking into all of these issues.
But Tucker, ultimately it's going to come down to how

(46:24):
much do people want to change in California. And I
can tell you even living in my latte sipping avocado toast, eating,
you know, Lululemon wearing neighborhood in San Francisco, people are
fed up with the crime, the drugs, the homelessness, the
intermittent electricity, and everything else that is wrong with California.
So people want to change here. It's just not working.

(46:44):
And this really is a test of whether our system works.
I mean, can people get better leadership? That's kind of
the question. Will there be election observers on the scene
so the rest of us can know this was fair? Well,
the problem in California is that the voting doesn't just
take place on election day like it would in a
normal place. It takes it's taking place now on a

(47:06):
rolling basis through mail in voting. It's a hard to
percent mail in ballots this time around, and it is
going to take place for thirty days after the election
if it's close, because they have thirty days to count
the vote. That's sixty days of voting, and of course
a lot of shenanigans can occur and ballots can disappear,
So we are going to be observing it very closely
and demanding accountability and filing lawsuits wherever we need to

(47:27):
to hold the Democrats accountable because we cannot trust them. Yeah,
I hope. So people want to believe the system works,
that it's real that they have powered their vote matters.
So I appreciate what you're doing. Harmytal, and thank you.
A lot of what's said in that last clip is
either extremely misrepresented or just flat outlines. Those three ballots
found in a car, we're actually part of a larger

(47:48):
mail theft thing not related to the election at all.
Voters have received new ballots and for this election, just
like the last one, Californians have the option to vote
in person, to mail in ballots, or deliver them in
a dropbox. The deadline to drop off mail or place
your vote is September. Counting cannot start till the fourteenth either,

(48:12):
and like every election, there will be observers throughout the
entire counting process. Obviously, this isn't the first time conservative
media has hyped up election fraud, the last presidential election
being the biggest instance to date. But what is concerning
here is that they're setting up a template to use
for all future elections whenever Republicans lose. Here's a Fox

(48:35):
clip from September seven. The only thing that will save
Gavin Newsom is voter fraud. So as they say, stay woke,
pay attention to the voter fraud going on in California
because it's going to have big consequences not only for
that state but for upcoming elections. It's safe to assume
that stop the Steal esque strategies will be used almost
every time a Republican loses in an election going forward.

(48:58):
We've seen exactly what this type of rhetoric and propaganda
leads to, and it ends in blood. There were multiple
attacks on state capitals during the Stop to Steel rallies
prior to January six. In some places like Salem, Oregon,
they succeeded in getting inside the capital. Even if Newsom
gets to stay in office, there will still be many problems,

(49:21):
electric conspiracies and the possibility of violence, like January six
just being one we haven't wanted to righteously defend Newsom here.
He's a politician and inept in many ways. He deserves
plenty of criticism, especially on the issues of climate change.
But the criticism levied at Newsom from the likes of
Elder in the GOP are based on bigotry, nationalism, and

(49:44):
climate denial. Newsom should be our punching bag, not theirs.
I'm Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair
Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender

(50:04):
division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr
adding A Rucar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with
an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, mental health,
and burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast Time Out,
a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hell of Sunshine.
We're uncovering why society makes it so hard for women

(50:25):
to treat their time with the value it deserves. So
take this time out with us. Listen to Time Out,
a fair Play podcast on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm j Calbern,
host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a
lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts,

(50:49):
We controlled absolutely everything. He brobed judges and even helped
a hit man walk free, until one day when he
started talking with the FBI and promised that he could
take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying
to figure out why he flipped and what he was
really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to
be true. There's gotta be something wrong with this. I

(51:11):
wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum,
big liar, stool pidging. He looked like what he was
or at. I can say with all certainty I think
he's a hero because he didn't have to do what
he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I
put the wire around the first time, my life was over.
If it ever got out, they would kill me. In
the Heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart

(51:32):
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Black Effect presents features honest conversations and exclusive interviews,
a space for artists, everyday people and listeners to amplify, elevate,
and empower black voices with great conversations. Make sure to
listen to the Black Effect Presents podcast on I Heart Radio,

(51:55):
Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Greetings and
welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. I
am a researcher and writer on the podcast team. Today
we have a roundtable discussion with a group of researchers

(52:16):
who look into extremism and political political violence that's usually
stemming from far right propagandists and people in that kind
of whole sphere. So we have a discussion relating to
climate change and all these other things. So that I
was able to record these fine people. It's split up
into two sections, so part one is coming out today,

(52:36):
Part two is coming out tomorrow. Highly recommend you listen
to both, maybe maybe even back to back at some
point because it does really give a nice, rounded out
um view of what we were talking about. So, without
further ado, here is my discussion with I kind of know, well,
not not a dozen, but of a lot a large
amount of terrorism researchers. As we are all uh in

(53:00):
the woods. As you will soon find out, welcome token
happened here the Daily Show. I am Garrison Davis, and
I am recording in an undisclosed location in the woods.
Um we are me and a few a few internet
colleagues are all hiding from the world for a week

(53:22):
to reset our poisoned brains. But I'm gonna slightly re
poison us here for about an hour to have a
discussion about climate change and terrorism because all we have
a group of people here who are all well research
the bad thing online a lot. So I'm gonna try
to try to use to take advantage of having this

(53:44):
uh unique group of people all in one location to
have this nice discussion for you guys. But yeah, specifically
we want to we want to talk about how we
how each of us has an you know, quote unquote
expert in certain fields. Um see climate change im acting
impacting extremism and terrorism in the next in the next

(54:05):
few decades. Um. And yes, we are recording in the force.
So if you hear sounds like we're in the forest,
that's because we are. Um. You you guys already know me,
or you probably do. But I'm gonna we're gonna go
around a circle, probably starting on my left, um, introducing
the people. And yeah, just give a brief a brief
brief bio. However detail do you want to get into.

(54:25):
My name's Matt Taylor. I'm a journalist and researcher focusing
on cults, um, conspiracy theories, and extremism. And to day
is my birthday. Happy Birthday, Matt. In the in the past,
my name's THEO. I am a journalist and researcher as well.
I mostly focused on the American militia movement and paramilitary groups.

(54:50):
I'm toothpick Um with THEO, Matt Emmy and Big New Houses.
Isn't here on terrorism, Bat, that's that's a that's a podcast,
by the way, self plugged. Um. My research and reporting
focuses on mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps

(55:10):
with political extremism and the focus on connections between US
in Europe, especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist
with the Canadian Anti Hate Network and the host of
the Unusual Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on

(55:31):
experimism and kind of terrorism and data analysis and I'm Emmy.
I do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That that that is
our little crew. Um. Yeah, let's see what the first
thing we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing
is how we see like small because like the podcast

(55:55):
is more about like smaller local collapses, like we don't
there's not gonna be one big collaps Where does see
small things start to fall apart? And how we see
when small things all apart, what we do we see
filling in those gaps? Specifically, I think this will tie
into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. UM.
So yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your your knowledge. Yeah.

(56:17):
So one of the things that I've been thinking of
and following it. I don't now if this has made
as much of an impact in US media. UM. But
in the last month UM, parts of Germany and the
Netherlands experienced UM, really bad flooding UM that that literally
wiped out some villages and some towns. UM. And one

(56:39):
of the things that we've seen in Germany is you know,
far right groups. UM. There isn't really a militia movement
because it all laws there, but but far right groups
rushing in UM and collecting aid and going for photo
ops UH in those catastrophe areas. UM. And what that
does make me think of And maybe THEO can talk

(57:00):
more about this guy as we've seen similar stuff in
the US with the militia moving marking themselves as you know,
emergency preparedness UM or marking them selves in that way
and positioning themselves where when you know the government is
unable to respond, that these groups are able to come
in UM and also using that for their messaging and

(57:21):
for their rhetoric. Yeah. So, I mean that is something
that you see in the US. The biggest example Garrison
and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires
in Oregon last year, you saw checkpoints being established by
militia groups, whether all already formed militia groups are kind
of impromptu armed bands, and you also see that as

(57:44):
like a big marketing thing. I know a lot of
the Virginia based militias that I follow went out to
Tennessee two one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah,
they did a bunch of m H kind of aid
and photo ops. Yeah. So just not to docks myself,

(58:06):
but I'm from Nashville. And then, uh, the beginning of
in March, right before someone just dropped a toy gun.
Great job, guys. Yeah. So in the beginning of March
of last year, right before COVID hit Nashville, we had
a huge tornado go through Nashville itself and wipe out
like two different neighborhoods and then a rural town right

(58:29):
outside Nashville. But you saw a lot of like, so
the community comes together and this really nice display mutual
aid to do all the cleanup basically before any official
cruise could get there. But with that you also sell
like these far right groups coming in for photo ops
and it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted
areas and it was not not ideal. Yeah, a lot

(58:53):
of the American militia movement, especially the modern kind of
post two three strain of it, is predicated on this
idea of a complete breakdown of order or a loss
of civil order, however you conceive of that. And um,
these like climate disasters that are going to hit areas

(59:14):
are going to kind of provide a self fulfilling prophecy
for these people to step in and say like, oh no,
you need some sort of armed force, You need some
sort of group of people to keep order and to
keep law in whatever way they conceive of that. I
do think it's interesting you guys talking about kind of
like the photo op thing that they do, because when
the wildfire has happened in Oregon. All of the the

(59:34):
actual like relief work was done by anti fascists, Like
we like people in Portland, we set up, you know,
these these massive camps to help you know, all these
like you know, much more conservative people who is, who
have whoa to that wait their evacuate their homes and
they were all getting fed and all like their closest
that were coming from anti fascists, and the all the
right did was do the arm checkpoints thing. But interesting
that like in the South, where there's less anti fascists,

(59:56):
like you know, compared to the generals, compared to the
Portland right, how some of those groups actually do do
some of the relief effort um and that that's definitely
not the case up here in the in the West coast.
Oh yeah, I mean last year, I remember a few
county level militias that I follow in Virginia. We're like
seriously doing relief work, like they were gathering food, they

(01:00:18):
were taking out places affected by flooding in North Carolina
by tornadoes and Tennessee. It's not I wouldn't go so
far as to call it mutual aid because it lacks
the kind of ideological framework for that, but they are
providing some sort of infrastructure for their guys. Yeah yeah, yeah,
with with less of like the theory side of mutually.
But like, and I'm sure there's someone else who can

(01:00:40):
speak more on this, but like from my perspective growing
up in a super weird church, I see this in interacting,
they see this like combining with local churches a lot
as well. Um, I'm not sure there's anyone else here
who could say something more intelligently than me about how
like religion will combine with these like kind of militia effort. Well,

(01:01:01):
I was like eco eco extremists, like on the far right,
on the very fringe far right, can start to like
be very esoteric about there, you know, belief in climate change,
and they start to sort of frame it as like
our reason for the collapse, Um, that we need collapse,

(01:01:24):
are attacking infrastructure, like for the purpose of somehow saving
the planet, even though it's really not going to get anywhere.
We really need to We have to do a lot
of our own work on the planet. We can't just
destroy everything and see if it work. Yeah, we can
definitely bring up accelerationists and accelerationism as a as an

(01:01:46):
over overarching thing that is, you know, not just it
not to be like horseshoe theory about it, but the
accelation is that pops up in a whole whole lot
of areas, including areas of the left, where it becomes
very unuseful. Um that can lead to like a lot
of wasted time and some destructive tendencies. I mean, I
think that point kind of also provides an interesting through

(01:02:08):
line between more mainstream militias and like the really esoteric
brands of eco fascism or ecologically based extremism, is that
like they're both very influenced by like colonial schools of thought,
like eco fascism and all that is kind of predicated
on this idea of like tera nolis, like there is

(01:02:30):
this perfect empty wild land that we can have manifest
destiny exactly, And like so much of the ideas of
order and um like peacekeeping that you find within more
mainstream militia movements come from this exact same type of thinking,
where it's like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah,
I don't know, there's a lot of a lot of
people on the left who are in like the kind

(01:02:53):
of like you know, green green, like like ecosocialist or
like green anarchists kind of strange to get very straining
when people talk about eco fascism, which I can understand
because no one really means the same thing when they
talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any like any
like quote unquote terrorism that has like has like environmental purpose.
Some people, you know, when they think of eco fascists,

(01:03:15):
we think of like overpopulation. You know, there's a lot
of different things they mean mean by it. But I
know we we've all had talks about like what we
personally view as like eco fascism, because it's it's it's
it's not just eco streamism, Like eco streamism does not
equal fascism. Like there is there's a whole bunch of
eco extremists who are very anti fascist, um. And there
is some who kind of bridge bridge the gap, you know,

(01:03:36):
like like like id S has some more fascist tendencies,
But I would not accurately call them fascist based on
the type of stuff they do, with type of writing
they do, they do not have, they do not check
all of the boxes. Um. But then then we do
have people who I would accurately describe as eco fascists
who have done who've done you know, mass shootings who
have a lot of eco who have eco fascist stuff

(01:03:56):
either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos.
They bring enough points it's like, yeah, you kind of
fall into this broad category. Do someone here want to
give their personal definition of ego fascism? This isn't this
not necessarily exactly what we use for the pod, But
I just I'm interested to Here's a lot of people
with various backgrounds. Everyone has their own specialized knowledge. What
kind of when people say that, what, what do you

(01:04:17):
kind of put into that category? People believe in like
this organic law and like natural order, and they believe
that like there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything.
And I think that generally, like if we return to
like some kind of primitive society or like, you know,

(01:04:40):
they'll assume that like everything has uh it's own structure,
and that there's going to be people who rise to
the top, people who just you know, uh don't belong
in that kind of society. It's going to be really
damaging for like the elderly, for disabled people. And they
just sort of see it as like survival of the

(01:05:03):
fifth um, And I think that's like a much more
eco fascist point of view rather than like a more
green anarchist point of view where things with sort of
even out um, rather than become a hierarchical Yeah. Yeah,
I think hierarchy is an important part of that. And
how we you know, there is like a lot of
green anarchist who are focusing on like making their own
medication for for you know, people with tybies and stuff.

(01:05:25):
That's kind of stuff that's like really interesting to look
at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because we'll
become less relianced apply chains. And we don't really see
ego fascists doing that. We do not see them focusing
on making medication for people. Oh no, maybe I can
kind of set some people have to say more stuff
if I say it was real quickly. But one of
the things that I always or that that is a

(01:05:46):
red flag for me is is just you know, bring
in this very traditional discussions of gender roles and and
relating that to the environment. Yeah, of our rhetoric, I mean,
I don't we don't need to say names of specific
like writers are people, but there's definitely describe the general sure, Yeah,

(01:06:08):
stop playing with the toy gun. Oh my god, Um,
just just like establishing and it is kind of it
can be kind of like an older left thing too,
but establishing you know, ecological discussions within framework of traditional
gender roles um and kind of like what is expected

(01:06:30):
of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is this
is this is the dark side of cottage core. Yes,
that's the one way to put us. I mean you
want to get in here, oh boy, yeah, I like
parts of cottage courts, just not want intersects with a
certain strade of politics, Like queer cottage core is extremely

(01:06:51):
cute until yeah, well until you're not queer, and listen,
you know, sometimes they still are. Now here's the thing.
When we're when we're dealing with like traditional gender role stuff,
it's a really like slippery slope into more aggressive strains

(01:07:13):
of thought. So when we're when we're talking about the
the idea of of the class birthday, it's mass birthday.
You asked to apologize, Yeah, Rick to the editor, I

(01:07:35):
wouldn't know. That's so good. So when they're talking about
the claps and they want, you know, they think the
rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended.
They can they can you know, rebuild from the ground up,
smaller communities and uh, they can they can build the
society they want, which is largely no nationalists. It's not great.

(01:07:55):
The the idea that there will be this this supertraditional
family structure. You're going to have your this combined strong
warrior also homesteading man and your cool trad life who
never ages above thirty in this society. Like I'm being
generous here, assuming that at least like some of these

(01:08:18):
people have a little bit of like pre planning. But
they don't. They don't um and they step on each
other a lot, right because they have this this whole
plan for this uh, this society free of industry, um,
and they can't stop posting about it on the internet.

(01:08:42):
It's really funny, right, Like they're not they're not good
at it. Yeah, they're like way too addicted to posting
to like actually commit to like the true off the
grid trad life. At least at least ten k was
off the grid. We don't gotta hand it. We don't
got a hand to it. You want the circumtensis got
hit pod divided on how much we've got to hand it? Said, Kay,

(01:09:05):
the official stands of terrorism bad is a terrorism is bad?
Why don't we just bring them on. It is kind
of a concern when they do end up when they
stop posting. I mean when they're posting, but it's kind
of more concerning posting sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, if the same
as like looking at a kid that wants to be
a firefighter or something like they're just talking. They're not

(01:09:26):
going to do it, but you see some of the
I'm doing it and when they're doing the thing, the
lifestyle influencer version of fascism. Yeah, do you think that
it's going to affect kind of like laws about living
off grid and laws about like for for normal people.
I just want to get the funk out. I actually

(01:09:46):
just read something about this. There's some guy who've been
living off grade in Pennsylvania for like thirty years and
I don't remember the details of this, and we don't
have internet out here. Burn his house down. Yeah, he's
in jail now. He's probably to be in jail for
the rest of his life. And I think part of
whether it comes from left through the right as people
kind of start to try to build resiliency within communities

(01:10:08):
for disasters that are coming and start to seek ways
of living that do not rely on supply chains and
do not rely on the state. The state will strike
back against that as a consolidation of power, because the
more that people move away from it, whether on the
left or right, the less power the state has. I mean,
and utilizing counter terrorism an excuse to do so, Yeah,
because they're giving reasons and it's not it's not going

(01:10:31):
to get enforced equally. I'm sure the government's gonna gonna
focus uncertain people doing this and be slightly more okay
with other people doing it. Um. Well, yeah, what's so?
I would like to talk about Canada a little bit,
because specifically climate change affecting Canada's can be very it's
going to be slightly different, and most of it go

(01:10:53):
to the States because I've been I've been I've been
having my my waist deep in climate science books for
most of twenty one. Um, and Canada's gonna probably see
economic boosts um. And they're probably the state's probably just
gonnaa gap to get act you stronger because of how
the same thing with Russia. Both Canada and Russia are
going to get more economically powerful under climate change because

(01:11:16):
of how much more props are gonna get moved up.
How give me your thoughts to canad because in canada's
my backup plan. It's gonna gets too spicy in the States.
I'm I'm taking my Canadian passport and hiding in the woods.
Um how how What's it's interesting to hear you guys
talk about American millistic culture because we we definitely are
Rhetoric and propaganda that we see in Canada gets borrowed

(01:11:39):
a lot the talking points from the States, like the concepts,
but what we don't have are these strong organized militia groups.
We had three per centers for a while, um and
who still exists, but they were they were big about
being off right like they were the ones who weren't
posting for a long time. UM. And it seems like
as much as all these people are still around, they've

(01:12:01):
largely deflated, doubt because Canada has made some some efforts
to call them terrorists right right. Very recently we designated
them as a terrorist organization, which doesn't carry a criminal charge.
But if you if you do something involved with them,
you send them money like there is there are consequences
that have legal enhancements, um, but are are kind of

(01:12:24):
militia culture focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that
Canada is founded. It's very kind of soft sit type rhetoric.
But that Canada's establishment, it's it's rules, and especially with
all the public health measures, it's this growing, uh, this
growing kind of tired of thought in both the prairies

(01:12:45):
and largely out west. I grew up in Saskatchewan. Um,
most of my families in Alberta. I know when when
I look at when I because I keep a soft
eye on some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian.
Most of them popped up around Alberta. Um, we're you
see this stuff kind of like happening, Like do you
see any of this on the East coast? If so,
it's smaller or is this mostly on the West coast Canada? Thing? Well,

(01:13:06):
that like that conspiratory of thought we've seen kind of
across the country, Like on the East coast. You know,
just recently we had people setting up their own version
of checkpoints um as like a protest against the the
public health measures, and like the whole eastern part of
Canada is in its own bubble right now. Um. But yeah,

(01:13:28):
you had this the conspiracy based movement forming these actual
checkpoints and then the main part of it though, is
probably going to be out west. That is where these
ideas are the most popular or the most popular. That
makes sense where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know,
amplifying these types of talking points. Do you see that like?

(01:13:51):
Is that it is that a mostly Alberta thing. It's
mostly like prairies Alberta, the farmland. The interesting part is
that when you talk about groups is like in Canada,
groups are an urban phenomenon. For the most part, most
of our organization takes place around the city centers, and
that is very different from the States. With the States,
that's it's usually the usually the opposite. In some there's

(01:14:14):
there's always exceptions of two minimum people live. But generally
we see it as more as more of a rule
thing which teams organized, whereas cities are more like liberal
and that's what the anti fascist groups are based. Um.
But it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets
that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared,
but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on

(01:14:35):
the urban centers, and then we'd never have our groups.
They don't providing any kind of page that's just or
even checkpoints like that's beyond these like very recent protest movements.
You know, there has been no more forest fires around BC, um,
around you know what Western Alberta. Um. How do you
see the government's response these types of things right now?

(01:14:58):
And it Canada isn't particular situation with um, the Liberals
having a minority control. Um. You know, the Canadian poems
parliamentary system is probably confusing to alote Americans that they
don't understand it already. UM. But yeah, how how what
do you what do you see on on that front?
You know, you know just in true both both true
down Biden talk the talk around like pipelines and stuff,
but then do the complete opposite. Um. How do you

(01:15:21):
could have seen this kind of stuff working right now?
For for like on the on the climate side of things, Well, yeah,
our our reaction to the firefighters or reaction to the wildfires. UM.
I mean the government response has always looked at on like,
it's always looked at poorly. Um. But none of these
people are taking this as an opportunity to kind of
change minds and of do pr Um. There's much less

(01:15:42):
reaction to it. Most like the West. Also, there's this
incredible feeling of alienation because of the way that government
is set up, they have substantially less they have substantially
less voting power. Yeah, the same way the States, how
you know, there's like this excelling states with states in
the Midwest, you feel like they don't really have any
power politically. The same things for almost the entire East,

(01:16:03):
entire West coast of Canada, everything from like Manitoba to Alberta,
parts of BC. Everyone is very frustrated at at at
the at the federalise um and how they really don't
have control for what's happening. Like, yeah, people in the
East Coast are controlling what what our what our pipelines are,
what our minds are doing, and that does not fair

(01:16:23):
to our workers, because yeah it is. It does suck
when you know, a mind closes and then everyone in
a small town is out of business. Like the part
the part right in Canada, almost Stanley around them, you know,
used to be you know, bustling small towns that are
basically all all now ghost towns because stuff to close.
People have to meet to either like Calgary, Edmonton, Regina
don't laugh, um, so you know all all these specific things.

(01:16:47):
You know, we see pockets of this, we see pockets.
We see pockets of this and like the Good West
in the state's deal. Also it's like like manifestest naship
because like they are a lot of it started with
people kind of moving outward to try and gain more
land and make their borders um larger and like live

(01:17:11):
further out to like try and uh, I don't know,
to more territory um and with the like Canadian big
surgeon like indigenous rights and the big focus and shift
to like sort of give them land back or so
I'm not exactly clear on what the Canadian stances are
on that. Oh, just like I mean, we have a

(01:17:33):
big movement from indigenous populations to they seem very like
the comment like, well there's so many different bands and
tribes in different types of nations. Um, like we have
unseated territory, and the dynamics with which the government is
supposed to deal with and has agreed to deal with
it actually does deal with them is all vastly different. Um.

(01:17:53):
But yeah, that that idea of this focus on these
particular issues, like indigenous issues, even our attempts to you know,
have a greener economy, you know for a place that
for a long time and still is an extraction economy. Yes, Um,
how does that like a fact the oil company with
healthcare more like extremist far right groups who want to

(01:18:15):
move out that way, um, for the purpose of organizing.
And you also have the indigenous focus within the liberal government.
So like, how do those two groups do you think
like interact? Uh? Like the general conception is that the
push for indigenous rights, especially on the farther right, is

(01:18:36):
is for the digient franchipisement of white Europeans like it
is um. And then yeah, you do have this Western
exodus where we have very popular figures who are moving
further west because they are these stronger ideas of sovereignty. Um.
I forget what exactly it was pulling, but when the

(01:18:56):
Western exit or exit was started, you know, there was
a significant amount of popular or at least like not
strong support, but like existing support there was there was
there was a it was a large amount of support. Yeah. Absolutely,
It'll be interesting to see what happens though, talking about collapse,
like you know in these small towns, in like cloistered communities, um,

(01:19:20):
you know, they already feel cut off from the government
and not represented. And then if you have a breakdown
of infrastructure, you know, that will create why do we
even have them in the first place if they're not
helping us, which is which, which is true, which is
like a well real thing to think about. But their
solutions are wildly different than the actual solutions to help people, right.
And we've already see how this plays out in the
past as well with um, you know, places where uh,

(01:19:44):
the infrastructure starts to break down and then people who
have weapons kind of become the authority just based on
the fact that they have more power. Yeah. So one
of the things that I follow is a lot of
kind of like the more let's characterize it as as
boomer esque conspiracy theories, UM, especially with anti vax, anti

(01:20:08):
public health measures type thing UM. And one of the
things that that that really is noticeable to me is
how much more sovereignties and stuff is creeping up into
those areas UM and especially you know, they're they're two
really big examples of you know, if there's an anti

(01:20:29):
DAX protest in your city, it's probably one of these
two networks that both come from Europe UM that I'm
not going to name right now. UM. And those two
networks also you know, love to organize over the messaging
app Telegram, UM and Telegram is tell me if I'm
stepping in at any Telegram is where you know, so

(01:20:51):
much of this ideology, this far right ideology is able
to cross mix and commingle um. You know, I we
talked about Telegram in the pods, but people are familiar. Yeah,
I have been stepped in it yet keep going yeah,
adjacent to step but it's yeah, so so I mean, my, my,
The biggest framework going to talk about this a lot
is is Telegram as kind of this technological body of

(01:21:14):
the cultic milieu because there is so like basically no
enforcement close to no enforcement on Telegram and so you know,
these these more malicious actors know that, and they know
that they can find an audience who is interested in,
you know, opposing the mainstream conspiratorial thought in these kind
of like boomer tell boomers on Telegram and conspiracy groups,

(01:21:36):
and there are you know, militious actors planning to go
in and when these people over it. And you know
a lot of these militious actors are younger people who
don't have those resources, but they know that they can
win over these people who do have resources, who own
land who have savings to kind of like fund that
movement if yeah, oh, I was just gonna say, I
do think that the cultic miliuse like a really important

(01:21:57):
heuristic for these kind of collapse in areas, because the
question of what happens when kind of infrastructure and any
sort of political guidance falls away is governed a lot
by that, and like this idea that there's there are
these ideas floating around in our society and once people
have nothing else turned to, these malicious actors will bring

(01:22:17):
this stuff in and uh yeah, to put it simply,
then we're pretty fucked. Yeah. Telegram also has recently started
to have to crack down people and UM. Because of that,
you have this really interesting dichotomy of people who are saying,
like this means like get ready, get prepared, go off,
grig gone. And you also have on the other end

(01:22:39):
people who are saying, you know, create all type platforms
and like create UM more like self encryption and like
I'm trying not to step in right now, yea, yeah,
but to be able to to speak more peer like
peer to peer UM resources. And that wraps up part

(01:23:03):
one of the Terrorism round Table discussion. Thanks so much,
for listening. You can find us at happen Here pod
and cool Zone Media. On all of the socials UM.
You can find me at Hungry bow Tie UM, and
you can follow a decent amount of the researchers on
their podcast at Terrorism Bad, the podcast I think. I

(01:23:23):
think it's just at Terrorism Bad anyway. Thanks for listening
to Part one, Part two drops tomorrow. Stay tuned. This
is Roxande Gay, host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the
Bad Frominist Podcast of Your Dreams. Now, what is the

(01:23:46):
Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask, Well, It's a podcast
where I'm going to speak my mind about what's on
my mind, and that could be anything. Every week, I
will be in conversation with an interesting person who has
something to say. We're going to talk about feminism, race,
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(01:24:08):
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to share with you a movie or a book, or
maybe some music or a comedy side something that I
really want you to be aware of and maybe engage
with as well. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, The
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(01:25:33):
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Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
is part two of our Terrorism Roundtable discussion. If you
haven't listened to part one already, I would recommend you
scroll back, listen to the previous episode and then continue

(01:25:55):
on from here so you have kind of context to
what exactly we're talking about. Anyway, this is two of
our discussion in the Woods. I hope you enjoy. Something
that I've talked about earlier this year after January six,
was like should the government ban telegram? Right? That was
the thing? And there's a lot of a lot of
arguments are like no, absolutely not, and there's does it

(01:26:18):
Does anyone want to speak on that? Because you know,
because like if I want to talk about the government's
response to these things, you know, that's a very government
thing to do. Be like, oh, people are organized on
this platform, get into the platform problem gone, you know,
and that's not how that works. One us talking that
a little bit. Sure, Um, yeah, so they're getting rid
of the platform doesn't necessarily help, especially when it's something

(01:26:41):
that is important, such as like you know, encrypted communication,
which is something that more people than just Nazis need um,
and that resource should not be cut off. And there's
also kind of a bad precedent to be said if
the if the government is deciding which uh forms of
speech it needs to have complete access to. I don't
love that. Um. The other thing is that if we

(01:27:03):
knew telegram, right, they don't disappear, they form that networks.
They're still there, and still they have to do more
things in person, still there, they're just harder to hard.
People are absolutely correct when they say D platforming works
because it works for the platform, and a lot of
people just want that. A lot of people just don't
want to see Nazi ship and they're fine with you know,

(01:27:24):
D platform and they say this works, and they have
data to backup that it does work. But it works
for the platform. But the people still exist, well yeah,
still boosting their own ship and when they bring up
building their own all tech platforms. It certainly works in
the early yeah, yeah, yeah, And there is elements that, yeah,
D platform is a wider thing can especially for like

(01:27:45):
in person stuff. But yeah, for your sort the thing
you're mentioning, yes it is. It is definitely not not
that cut and dry, you know, and telegrams really interesting
because it is kind of this middle space between social
media and just a messaging app. Yeah. How The thing
about it too, is that anybody can look at these
you know, the public channels, so without without saying anything

(01:28:06):
in the chance, so people could be kind of completely invisible. Nobody,
like nobody knows that they're there. They're watching this stuff,
and they're still getting the same messaging, they're still getting
the same dates for protests, they're still like organizing, but
they can be uh, sort of just subscribe to a
channel and you don't even need to be subscribed, you cause, yeah,

(01:28:26):
just looking into and getting that flow of information without
ever having like formal organizing so to speak. So it's
really hard to say that like, you know, these people
planned this because there's a lot of plausible deniability and
there's anybody was involved. There's so much easy hyper linking
between groups and channels and everything, so it's so easy

(01:28:46):
for someone to move between ideology and to go from
kind of like the base level ship into the much
deeper stuff extremely quick, very quick. Yeah, really quick. Well,
that's like that's good design. That's good for them about
telegram is that you have all of the people that
are vulnerable to let's say, new ideas in one place.

(01:29:08):
That's exactly if you're trying to plan a collapse, you're
going to need a lot more people than the numbers
that the people who want the collaps actually have. So
the easiest way to kind of move things along is
desert inserting their ideas and their discourses and kind of
altering the vibe of certain digital environments manually until they

(01:29:30):
have um, what we can kindly call cannon fodder. Yeah,
or even starting their own and saying like, you know,
this is a maga platform and it's actually just you know,
a bunch of bunch of acceleration ISS made made it
to recruit them because saw attempts of this with like
Q and on of people who are way more coleation

(01:29:50):
is trying to use people. It was successful and the
people died. You're I mean that And then also you've
got like like the idea of the boogaloo right that's
being co opted to try to appeal to leftists, And
I mean there's a really good article by Left Coast
Right Watch that goes into one of those chats and
they're basically like, yeah, really try to push these ideas

(01:30:11):
of really try to push talking points like black lives
matter and all this, we want to get these protesters
on our side. And then you also have um, some
blatant like white supremacist groups who are all using the
boogaloos And how much of that too is like how
largen that is sort of real genuine like I am
not racist, I believe in black lives matter, Like I

(01:30:34):
want to be part of this even though I'm a
bog or like how much of it also is um
kind of reminiscent of what we were talking about yesterday,
And I also don't want to step in it. But
like with you know, the idea of from Anson of
like Helter Skelter and like causing that race where it's
like they what they would do is like try and
frame black people for it and say like this was

(01:30:55):
you know, yeah, and how much of it is saying
like this is black lives matter are and they want
people to see that after they do. The boogleloo groups
that showed up in Portland in January in July when
the particular fads were happening, now that they showed up
and we're all like, yeah, we're here to support black
lives matter and stand against the federal government and stuff. Um.

(01:31:16):
And they had some very suspicious patches that it took
me up took me about a year to figure out
what they were. And it's like this accelerationist like, um,
it ties into whole bunch of like eco fascist propaganda
stuff um and yeah, like they're they're saying these things,
well they have these very obscure patches, um and yeah,
this is an important reason why we need people who

(01:31:38):
are not very smart, like I will say, Jimmy dor
who puts these gives these people platforms are some of
the worst and are going to cause a lot of
problems because they have no idea what they're doing or
they know what they're doing, and they're just bad. And
like that Boogleo thing kind of serves a twofold purpose
in that you can bring people who self identify as
leftists into the movement, but you also have a really

(01:32:00):
good scapegoat for like actual Actually that was a big
thing that we saw in Minneapolis when things first popped off,
and like recently was getting burned down and suddenly people
on the internet start losing their minds about the umbrella.
Guys at the and there was a guy who was indicted.

(01:32:21):
He was a boo boo boy who was indicted for
um like headlines said, burning down the precinct. He fired
a weapon. He fired a gun on like near the
wall exactly. And so that at the same time takes
away agency from left wing movement and the States able
to be like, look, see, it's just okay to crack
down on them because they're all, you know, wild white

(01:32:41):
supremacists exactly, just from any autonous room with the forms
of the people in the community. But isn't that we
wouldn't necessarily for to his left is just piste off people.
I mean, that's what we saw in every single you know,
everybody perfect the young kids who are sucking piste off
and are going to go smash it. And it's like saying,
all of this is people from outside of the town.
It's like, I never sign agitators. Yeah, it's a tale

(01:33:02):
as old as time, Like outside agitator has been used
since before this. It's a very old state talking point. Yeah,
what are you going to say that? Um, yeah, I
was gonna say. Also, it's somewhat related to that. We're
talking about using like human on his cannon fodder and
it also ties into the sab sit conversation we're having.
So my research I special are not specialized. I focus

(01:33:23):
on Christian identity, this white supremacist ideology and how specifically
how it's grown since the nineties until now through like
the Internet and all that fun stuff. This whole point
they've been pushing lately is to like there this with
Christian identity. The whole thing is they are preparing for
the apocalypse, which they call the tribulations, and they see

(01:33:46):
modern see I folks see the boogaloo as like the
tribulation that's coming. So what they're trying to do is
go off grid and really try to like establish this
new land or like to protect their kids and everything
from like pollution and all that ship, but also to
be away from the collapse and be able to start
buy it. And then while they're doing all that, like

(01:34:07):
prepping homesteads and the compounds and stuff, they're also like
pushing like election fraud conspiracies and all that on like
Q and on in the maggot crowd. Not because they
believe it, not because yeah, right, they don't believe it.
They know it's bullshit, but they can use it to
accelerate collapse, just like January say, yes exactly, I mean
when I mean there are groups when Joe Biden won

(01:34:29):
the presidency or won the election, whatever, some groups being like, yeah,
I really try to push this theory of this conspiracy
about election produd, even if you even if you don't
believe in it, just push it because that helps our cause. Um.
And that's that's something to be really mindful of too.
Forgot where else I was going with that. Well, yeah,

(01:34:49):
a lot of them don't mean what they say. They'll
say things that will push other people to do something
that they don't necessarily want to do. And that's a
lot of a lot of Like during January six, so
much excitement because they could see that the Q and
on crowd are actually mobilizing, and so they said to them,
like to themselves, like, you know, get them, get the

(01:35:13):
mobilizing for the white race, get the mobilizing for you know,
our cause. And they've really successfully been able to infiltrate
that and be able to get some people on board
with some of it just based on using their rhetoric. Yeah,
I know I talked about this on our podcast, but

(01:35:34):
you could see it like I reported on January six
in person, and like you could watch it happen. Someone
with a skull mask on or proud boy or an
oath keeper would literally come back from the police line,
grab a group of people, yell something at them about
que and On or the storms upon us, and throw
them up to that riot line and until they got

(01:35:55):
did a really good did a really good visual investigation
of how those extremistcupes you used mega people in quan
On people as their foot soldiers. Qu A folk q
A didn't really get break down their podcast. Yeah, but
it's also with I mean not to link everything the
Christian identity, which I have a tendency to do, but
it's it's very ideologically similar to q and On, like

(01:36:18):
from a Christianity point of view, Like that's quan On
is like so close to the edge of Christian identity.
It's very scary. Actually I talked about it on Jake
hammer Hens Q Clarance podcast. But it there's also like
not only trying to accelerate things through them, but also
trying to recruit them through these like very very similar
talking points about like the Synagogue of Satan and all that,

(01:36:41):
saying that Christian identity is an entry point for some
of them. Some of them bring it up as an
entry point into further like accelerationist Nazi ship. But like
they will start with Christian identity because I think that
it's more practical to people who already believe in Q
and on. Yeah, exactly, Will was saying these There's a

(01:37:01):
lot of this comes from these kind of boomer conspiracies
and anti vax groups, and you're not going to be
able to get you know, Mimon pap Pap into like
wotonism or something like that if you try hard enough change.
But like Christianity is something that's palatable, it's something that's
normal to them, and as you can kind of slowly
tweak it through to it on, you can get them
to this much warp stream. Talk about Christian identity. I

(01:37:23):
think we should, like, maybe Matt, you could define it
Christian identity. It's this radical offshoot of Christianity that sees
all white people as the true Israelites from the Bible um.
And they also think Jewish people are all literally the
spawn of Satan. There's this really dumb theory they came
up with and like kind of rewrote the whole Bible

(01:37:43):
off of called can I name Zoka okay dual seed
line theory where they say, like the story if you
know about like Adam and even all that they had
can enabled. Right, So they see um Kane was the
offspring of Eve and the devil and he was literally

(01:38:03):
the spawn of Satan and then he intermingled with all
these races that were there before Adam and Eve and
created this demonic race. And it's really really fucking dumb,
but it's still here. It's been here for It's probably
gonna keep going. It's gonna get worse calling it now,
it's gonna get worse. Yeah, but uh, and the whole

(01:38:26):
thing is they essentially like worship like a Nazi Jesus.
They see Jesus only was really only talking to the
white race, and that Christianity and like God only is
able to be perceived by the white race. And before
you start laughing at people, because yes, it does sound
very silly, keep in mind that these are extremely dangerous,
like right, this is this is one problem with two

(01:38:48):
and on when liberals just start laughing about how crazy
it is and then they're so surprised at January six,
we're like no, no, like it's yeah, like they're actually dangerous. Yeah,
because you've mentioned in a lot and he's appecially that
it's been mentioned in various manifestos linked to actually has
warned very like organized, like I mean, historically it's a

(01:39:13):
big part of like with Christian identity with a lot
of these kind of like a lot of them based
their like whole historical context of like arianism on this
rewriting of history based on um a fake study that
was done in Nazi Germany about uh where some proto

(01:39:35):
Indo European languages came from. And so they believe that
like white people came from uh an area that's you know,
you could generally say it's sort of near the Black Sea, um,
and that it's based on this like strange idea that
like Sanskrit is not the oldest language, but like are

(01:39:59):
you funny the gun at me because I'm stepping in you.
I think it actually is useful And yeah, there there
is actual because they really tried to push this, They
made um a lot of fake studies that you could

(01:40:20):
spend a lot of time researching this and believe that
it's true, um, because there's just so much written about
it and I think this is like a tactic that
they really tend to do with historical revisionism. A lot
is just crank out essay after essay, even if it's wrong,
even if it's totally like based on false data or
just skew it doesn't data. If they don't care, they

(01:40:42):
just write about it, and that they think that like
having more written about it makes it more legitimate. And
if that's what we are talking have been talking about
this this whole time we've been not recording, is there's
just an overflow of content that is so easy to access,
you know, not necessarily from these specifics they're talking about,
just from the further right. In general, I just overflow

(01:41:08):
the content. It's like always the top ship on Facebook.
To give an idea of how pervasive, even that idea
of like where Indo European languages came from, Like when
I still went to college, I took the Religions of
South Asia course and we had to spend like multiple
days where a professor went through these myths about like
what was the Arian invasion, which like was there are

(01:41:31):
Arian people that that is a thing historically, yes, they're
not white people, but like going through a definition of
white people. Sure they think of arianism as like referring
to a linguistic pattern. Yeah, but like in a university course,
we still had to go through and like debunk these

(01:41:53):
myths because they've gotten so pervasive within the culture. Yeah.
And another thing I want to say is that how
of these more entry level conspiracy ideas, it is hard
to over emphasize how small the spaces between the entry
level stuff and the much harder stuff. You can have

(01:42:13):
an extremely extremely you know, I'll give I'll give an example.
I went to you know, I was reporting on an
anti vax protest and they went straight into talking about
New World Order and and Project locks, Lockstep and and
the raw Childs and the builderers and like the Sabbatines
and David Ice ship just me and this is this
is the middle of the day, and like a metropolitan

(01:42:35):
area with a bunch of boomers and trump hats who
are getting this like hardcore ship pumped at them or
you uh, we sell that a lot. With the national
bombing to like immediately it was like, oh, it was
actually an attack on dominion. And also it was orchestrated
by the roths Childs to destroy evidence of voter for
I forgot that. And then also there was a whole like,

(01:42:57):
there was a bunch of stuff that came up later
as a big conspiracy that it was actually a missile strike.
I had to talk my grandpa down from that. Yeah,
And there was a video that circulated for a while
about then I had to get into a conversation with
my grandpa, but at the time was super isolated because
of COVID and that's a whole yeah, And I had
to like talk him down and show him like, no,

(01:43:19):
here's uh, here's a video from somebody I knew who
was like somewhat in the area and saw the explosion
and like in there was not a missile anywhere. Yeah.
One of the data studies that I've done is UM
and worked on is using big pool and small pool
discord servers of far right extremists UM, far right militia

(01:43:40):
groups and UM very very accelerationist skull mass that networks
UM and looking at the big pools and the small
pools and seeing the app mentioned between them. Yeah, and
there was not one person who was more than three
notes away from anybody else. It's very it can't be

(01:44:02):
overstated how close people are from entry to very very
very extreme h types of goals and explicit ideologies that
explicitly pushed violence. And another point I want to bring
up is um like, yeah, there's been much said about

(01:44:22):
Qunan isn't going away, It's just not called quan On anymore.
With with these anti vax mobilizations, those mobilizations and groups
aren't going away. They're just going to continue to shift
in a ball of their focus and the stay you're
planning for it like they've they've they've they've designed it
that way. So I sometimes I find the normal stuff first,

(01:44:46):
sometimes I find the crazy stuff first. But I mean
not even that long ago, I came across a particular
social media profile that was explicitly calling for acts of
terror and attempting to organize acts of terror and displaying
acts of terror, which is like an immediate for the
one that needs to be dealt with. However, they had
multiple alternate accounts that you follow that path, and on
their other accounts they're sharing like Tucker Carlson stuff like

(01:45:10):
things that your grandparents are going to watch right like,
and that is done on purpose to try to like
siphon people out of um. More quote unquote mainstream versions
of like conspiratorial thinking directly into like you should start
exploding things, and even even more even more, let's say
left of center conspiracy thinking ties into this is what

(01:45:32):
does and it's not. You know, conspiracy theories are not
solely a thing of the right, which which takes me
off to no end. No, I just want to back
you up on that, Like I think there's this maybe
this like implicit idea that the left is immune to
conspiracy theories when it very much is. Yeah, I just

(01:45:55):
wanted to emphasize that point. That idea that of like
never being that far from the serious stuff is something
that's really really observable, even beyond like a data level.
I used to like consult with local newsrooms on how
to report on things, and one of the big points
I always tried to drill in was like, if you
fuck this up and you frame this the wrong way,

(01:46:18):
it will have consequences. And if this is stepping in
it too much, we can come but like the um
Dylan Roof. Dylan Roof started his journey to radicalization by
reading about Trayvon Martin in local news websites and local newspapers,

(01:46:40):
and then googling black on white crime and his first
result exactly and like it does not It did not
take long for him to go from I am reading
local news articles that are framed this specific way to
im killing people. That's not normal, of course, like a

(01:47:04):
lot of people are not going to be reading local
news and then suddenly start to think this way, but
like there is a concerted effort by some very specific
people who would like to make that pathway easier. It's
what's interesting because we don't we can't like define it

(01:47:26):
really as terrorism. What are they doing. They're really just
they're just saying things. They're just encouraging people to do things,
and like they're not like they're not doing anything wrong.
We can't really call it terrorism. The most dangerous people
in this game are usually not the ones doing the shooting,
people behind the scenes trying to go on these paths

(01:47:46):
in the first looking for people who are willing and
then so they see somebody reading local news maybe and
they want to make that pathway easier for to go
from local news to Dylan Ruth like because that's not
a normal jump, but they really want to find people
who are looking at local news like that, and then
say to them like, well, okay, you look at this.

(01:48:06):
Now look at that trying to try respect to climate change.
How do you see do you see a similar pathway
instead of instead of some of googling no black white crime,
like googling stuff about collapse and and like modern modern civilization.
Eric Stryker, I don't know. Eric Striker has been on
about this, and I think that he's a i mean

(01:48:26):
relatively like middle point that people get to like fairly
like average people do listen to things like Eric Stryker
entry level explicit Nazi and another thing, cut me off
if we don't want to go in this direction. But
you know, one of the biggest places where we see

(01:48:48):
young people getting into conspiracy theories is TikTok alright, TikTok
that cut that cut that we're not we're not cutting that.
That is that is with the pod. Yeah. The biggest
entry points seen for a lot of things remains crisis. Yeah.

(01:49:11):
And the thing is this, our upcoming climate scenario is
going to give people an easier jumping on point. Well, yeah,
that's so. I mean we were talking about how like
the mythology of like like black on white crime and
all this stuff they're trying to create a situation that,
you know, with the urgency that justifies fascism, which on
its own is unjustifiable and ridiculous. But when there's a crisis,

(01:49:36):
climate change is the existential threat that they've been trying
to artificially create, and they no longer have to. They
now get to skip a lot of steps and save
a lot of energy by just planning at the fact
that everything is literally on fire and that like that
that makes it so much quicker. State, we have to
do something. We have all the guns. Now would be

(01:49:57):
a great time to join it on our power. This kid,
this this is our bym Our era hyperinflation type ship. Yeah,
I mean this is like when you're when you can't
get food from the grocery store anymore because of supply
chain problems, or when everything around you is on fire.
You don't need like a grace, you don't need a
great replacement theory, you don't need anything. You don't need

(01:50:18):
to say that the rothschilds are behind you. You haven't
just need to wait. You have you have enough things
that you experience yourself, and it's much scarier when you
can't because I can't like like how do we how
do we stop? Yeah, I can't find it's harder. Well,
it's literally on fire. It's it's a problem and something
needs to be done about it. I don't like your solution,

(01:50:40):
but something needs to happen. So what what what do
you think on this path? And this is gonna get
a whole lot more speculative, like what can we do
to make people falling down those pathways less often? Like like, yes,
that is that, that's that's one of the things that
we're trying to do on the pot is making sure
that people do not fall fold down the the doom

(01:51:01):
pathway because yeah, this that that does get people along
down logical like against like like against most types of extremism.
Eco extremism is mostly logical. Like you look at it
and you say, we need a radical change right now,
and that's correct. Um, it's just the way that they
go about it is very, very different, and that's why,

(01:51:23):
like you know, eco fascism is very different. It's its
own type of eco extremism. And there's green anarchy that's
a very different type of eco extremism. Like these are
all different parts of something that almost has the same
goals but wants to go about them very very, very differently,
and it's so easy to just look around and see

(01:51:43):
how everything's on fire, and I think like the government's
doing nothing about it. The government starts doing something about it,
and then suddenly it's the state's two bigs. We're in communism,
you know. So they all of like different goals and
it's very conflicting on how to how to deal with
and like even the very from tactics between green anarchy
and like fascistic you extreamism. They also will get two

(01:52:05):
different end fools, right, like you like your your basic
amprim what's a very different life than you're you know,
very you know, very stepping in it pilled fascist? Right,
A collapse can only benefit the right. A collapse can
only benefit the people who already have power, who already
able bodied, who already stocked up on guns, who already like, yeah,

(01:52:31):
that doesn't frustrate me with their being anarchists who are
like rooting for the collapse because you're not gonna win,
like you're just going to be somewhere on the wall. Yeah. Well,
they've got very strict ideas of which people count as
human and the goal of the majority of fascist movements
is to you know, purge the ranks of the people
they see is lesser, and they have they have, they

(01:52:52):
have very precise ideas about who they plan on letting
to survive the collapse. So let's let's I think it's
time to start talking about and tell me if I'm
taking this in the long direction. You know what the
funding someone do? Who's listening to this? Yeah? No, stop recycling,
it's all getting buried in the Oregan force. Just vote.

(01:53:18):
I mean, like, what made you start local? Find a
local group, find a local direct action group. Investigate that
group and see who is behind it. But find start locally.
It has to start at the local level, because when
should I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna say if the
collapse comes or like or no, not the collapse like local,

(01:53:40):
local collapses. There's anyway disasters, Confucio disasters are gonna affect
at the local level. Talk to your talk to your neighbors,
talk to your family, Like, try to get your family
on these paths that lead to helping your neighbors instead
of you know, making friends with the church militia. Before
you buy a gun, learn how to fucking garden, but

(01:54:01):
buying a gun and that sort of thing is is good.
It's good to know how to use firearms, basic biency preparedness. Yes,
but learn learn how to put on our turn to
learn how to feed yourself, learn how to grows some
fucking food. Learn how to cook that fucking food. Get
in effect all that comes before, like you get to
be a fallout character. Yeah, oh yeah, an individual first

(01:54:25):
aid kit. You can buy them on the stores. You can.
You can buy them and like some pawn shops. Yeah,
I like North American Rescue or North River Rescue. I'm
sure we'll find about. I text more on the poduct.
Well there, Look, there are two big things. One, we
all have a moral obligation to consistently counter the black
pill doom er ship. Everything is coming to an end,

(01:54:46):
like it doesn't have to. That's optional. Like things are
going to get bad, but there's degrees of that. We
can stop it from being. You don't need civilizational great,
we don't need civilization to end like that can be done.
Step two. We also have an obligation to counter the
individualist stuff and and and focus our efforts more towards
towards community and relationships. That is so so important because

(01:55:10):
every idiot that's gonna buy a gunna have a bunker,
not only is not going to make it, that's gonna
screw the rest of us. Like this has to be
a communal effort and almost civilization thing, Like we do
need civilization to change, like we need human society, as
we lay out we as has a lot of problems.
I understand people's critiques of human civilization. We still need
a society, but yeah, we we need we need places
that you know, people are going to catherine and people

(01:55:32):
you know, provide the things that we have. Um. I
noticed that that can be a loaded word on certain
political circles. So I'm not you know, we're not getting
into like civilization theory and that kind of anything. I
was gonna say, I would argue any ideology or ideas
just the boogaloo that uh kind of hypes up a
collapse is generally one you should stay away from anything
that makes the collapse sound like it makes it sound

(01:55:55):
sexy and personal story as I think it's important to remember,
Like if there was some massive civil conflict that happened,
I think the people who would suffer the most or
the noncombatants to deal with it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I
don't talk about kind of episode of terrorism bad. Um,
well we'll do plugs of the end. Hold put the
gun back in your pants, just together. I was talking
about historical precedent earlier, about things we've seen in the

(01:56:18):
past with collapses and how people with guns and people
who with training end up being the ones who gained power. Um.
Something that like I was specifically reading about that was, um,
like the Rwandan genocide. If you know, it was just
the three months where most of the Fitsie people were
wiped out. Um, there are conflicting numbers, so I'm not

(01:56:41):
gonna specifically say any but um, you know the more
recently like this year. Earlier this year, Um was only
when Rwanda admitted what it was, that it was a genocide.
And um, the people the armed forces were the ones
who became like the the leaders and then they were

(01:57:01):
backed by the government. That can't happen in America. Yeah,
And it's like it can't happen here though we are
we are immune to this in our spot of the world.
Call it will not happen here. And the other thing
is look at where you get your information from. Seriously,

(01:57:22):
no matter who you are, take a long, hard look
at who you get your even if you're on the left,
especially if you're you're on the left. You know, if
you want to hear about something that's happening in an area,
look at the people who are actually on the ground
reporting with people. Don't just rely on like news aggregators.
Especially on Twitter. There's been a lot of bad, very

(01:57:44):
bad faith news degreators on Twitter who are posing a leftist.
This has been a huge problem. Even leftists who just
don't do that, You just do a very bad job.
People call themselves like car extremism or counters and researchers,
and they are really talking about anti They say that
they are kind of extremism researchers, and they pose that

(01:58:06):
way and they look sometimes like they could be sometimes
like that they're not, but like you know, vary varying
degrees of like legitimacy, but like they focus only on
like the left wing stuff. They don't think they don't
see it has to be this idea of like keeping

(01:58:28):
it balanced right, like not making it just like a
far right issue, which I would argue, I think a
lot of other people would that this kind of stuff
is more concerning issue and there is like merit definitely
to looking at left acceleration, which is not for the record,

(01:58:50):
left accelerationism is not talking about anti fascists. But um,
it's really not time to get like well, I mean,
left accelerations will be will be its own effort. But
what what some people do posing as um, you know,
people who have credibility and are able to um kind

(01:59:14):
of sway opinion, They are not really doing what they
say that they're doing. They're really just trying to shift
the narrative of of racially motivated violent extremism, which is
a big obviously to being like BLM is racially motivated
violent extremism, and they want to push that narrative further

(01:59:37):
and further. I think let's look, leok, let's go, let's
kind of probably start to like wrap up and say
our final thoughts on you know, this whole this whole topic. UM,
I know, we we didn't. We didn't. We did not
we did we did not get to talk about like
eco defense very much. Anyone has any flinal thoughts on
that and how they see it kind of growing and
how they see the state's response to it. Um, that

(01:59:58):
might be worth briefly mentioning, but yeah, kind of, let's
kind of go around in a circle and give kind
of everyone's you know, final thoughts on the on the subjects. Um,
I think collapse is bad, and I think that well,
I mean that's my main my main thing. But anything
that's appealing to you and on like an ecological level

(02:00:22):
that's collapse related to something you should be very wary of.
And I think you should be way very wary of,
like generally everything. I feel like that's kind of like
a butcher, be careful about everything. Um. Yeah, I guess
in my opinion, idea of total collapse is very misleading
because it's easy and disasters don't work like that. You're

(02:00:44):
not gonna suddenly reset one day. Um, everything is going
to suck and you're going to need to fight for
whatever semblance of a society that you want to see
in the world. Talk to your fucking neighbors, that kind
of people in your city, in your neighborhood. There are
people doing good it in whatever city town you live in.
Most likely, if not, you can start it. Look at

(02:01:04):
your local mutual aid network, look at the people who
are taking action around and get involved seriously. You know,
it could be going out into a park Saturday mornings
and just like giving out food, talking to the people
who are most affective people seriously, if every one is
a person, you need to talk to touch graphs to
people if you need, like the most basic thing to

(02:01:25):
start on any sort of mutual aid work, trying to
find a food not bomb chapter in your They're well organized,
they're easy to join. You don't have to put on
block and fight a cop. It's yeah, it's a good
entry point and it's it's great. It's great training for
for disaster relief. If you have money and you want
to help, seriously, just give pass to on house, people

(02:01:45):
in the street, give money, give money to people, give
money directly to people. Yep. Uh. My last thoughts are
just that I think the idea of collapse or whether
actual collapse themselves, environmental or otherwise, will always be something
to a rally behind, Like it is always an entry
point as well as motivator from from all for all sides,
from all sides, um. But it's like when these things

(02:02:08):
become very silent, like was mentioned before, when they're outside
of your door, that's when you know, that's when like
the ideology kind of hits the pavement. Like what is
actually going to play out, what is actually gonna happen,
and how that's gonna affect people. It's very real. So
building community, you know, building connections, um, and just understanding
you know, who is in your community. It's probably one

(02:02:30):
of the most important things. Yeah, the idea of collapse
is a romantic and ridiculous notion. Uh come up with
people who are like really into like apocalyptic thinking and
the version of themselves if they get to be the
main character. So first and foremost take care of each other.
There are a lot of people out there who want
to manipulate you and want to change the way you

(02:02:52):
think about things, and they really really want you to
buy in to the end times and you don't have
to because you're smarter than that. Yeah, it's it's not hopeless.
We really have to move away from hierarchical thinking. Our
society really incentivize this hierarchical thinking. And think you're saying
to is sack like we um, we really need to

(02:03:13):
just be focusing on people, like if things people because
you know, somebody doesn't have to you know, earn you know,
respect and earn humanity. For some reason, we try and
make it seem like that. But people are people. Um,
people are in different circumstances because of usually because of

(02:03:34):
just the way that the world is, and um, yeah,
you need to just you need to organize locally. You
need to help your own people and stay away from
the internet. Ship stop posting. Don't stop posting as a
stop posting, even though we'll keep doing it because because
I'm the good posters. Um, who wants who wants to

(02:03:56):
pluck the pot? You're pought follow at terrorism bad? We're on?
That's what? What is the plot? Like? What? What? What
do you? Yeah? We go through, um, portrayals of terrorism
and extremism and conspiracies and conspiracies in popular media, and

(02:04:17):
we look at it from the perspective of people who
studied this and say, did this succeed in portraying these
things or did it as more often does problems completely
fail and cause us all personal problems become propaganda? And like,
did you make care of propaganda or did you make
good media about terror? That is a thin line, I
mean such a thin line. I've made a career out

(02:04:38):
is that is the thin terror line? Yeah? Do you
want to plug your fantastic group? Yeah? Absolutely, with you
can read anything I read at Anti Hate dot c
A and we do just general reporting on h far
right extremism in Canada as well as Infiltration podcast. Oh
and I also hosted podcast called The Usual Show. Yeah,

(02:05:02):
if you want to keep up to date on extremism
in Canada, their group is one of is probably the
best one around right now in my opinions. And yeah,
you do, you do, you do very good work. You
keep your eye on my home country where my family lives.
So thank you for that. Um, and I'm very happy
to be talking with you guys in the beautiful woods
where we have no cell service. We can't post um

(02:05:25):
and that's good and we're gonna continue doing that and
stop using this microphone. So goodbye. UM Yeah, and terrorism
at the podcast. With that, that wraps up the Terrorism
round Table Forest Discussion episodes. Thanks for listening to all
of us rant about our specific weird niche focuses and

(02:05:50):
hopefully trying to have it within the useful context of
climate change. You can follow me at Hungry bow Tie.
You can follow the podcast Happen Here pod and cool
Zone Media on Twitter and I believe Instagram can follow
some of the researchers I interviewed UM on their podcast
at Terrorism Bad. So that wraps up this discussion. Thanks

(02:06:11):
for listening, See you later in the podcasting verse, the
pod verse. Okay, goodbye. Here's to the great American settlers.
The millions of you has settled for unsatisfying jobs because

(02:06:33):
they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell
into it, and you know, it's like totally fine, just
another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself.
Of course, there is something else you could do. If
you've got something to say. You could, I don't know,
start up podcast with Spreaker from my Heart and unleash

(02:06:56):
your creative freedom and spend all day researching and talking
about stuff you love and maybe even earn enough money
to one day tell your irritating boss as you quit
and walk off into the sunset. Hey, I'm no settler,
I'm an explorer spreaker dot com. That's spr e a

(02:07:19):
K E R. Hustle on over today. Hello and welcome
to our show. I'm Zoe Deschanel and I'm so excited
to be joined by my friends and cast mates Hannah
Simone and Lamar and Morris to recap our hit television
series New Girl. Join us every Monday on the Welcome
to Our Show podcast, where we'll share behind the scenes

(02:07:41):
stories of your favorite New Girl episodes, revealed the truth
behind the legendary game True American, and discuss how this
show got made with the writer's, guest stars, and directors
who made the show so special. Fans have been begging
us to do a New Girl recap for years, and
we finally made a podcast where we answer all your
burning questions like is there really a bear in every

(02:08:02):
episode of New Girl. Plus each week you'll hear hilarious
stories like this at the end when he says you
got some schmid on your face. I feel like I
pitched that joke. I believe that. I feel like I did.
I'm not on a thousand percent I want to say
that was I tossed that one out. Listen to the
Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's a

(02:08:31):
problem here the show where I'm a problem? I'm on
vacation legally. You're not on vacation allegedly legally, but okay,
in La I'm drunk Garrison, You're in charge, now, figure
it out. G Hi, it could happen here. Today, we

(02:08:55):
are talking with somebody. If you've listened to the past
two episodes, you should actually you know, uh, THEO, who
is a journalist and researcher, and we are going to
be discussing plans for an upcoming rally in Washington, d C.
That's has a lot of that seems good. Yeah, this

(02:09:16):
is the things never happened? When, what happened? What happened
last time? What happened last time? I don't I I
historically only pay attention to things that happened after May
and before December, so I'm unaware of anything bad ever
happening in DC. Well, something bad stuff happened there last time.

(02:09:38):
It got it got a little spicy, Um, okay, spicy.
But it's not like they tried to overthrow the government
murder elected leaders, right, that is what they were actually
having too much fun. Yeah, they're just boys. They were
just proud of their boys. A little carried away building,
all of the building, that big hanging contraption whatever it's

(02:09:59):
called gallows gallows. Yeah, anyway, we're talking THEO. Do you
want to want to introduce yourself? Yeah, Hey, guys, I'm THEO.
UM idealist and a researcher. I'm based out of Virginia.
Allegedly I end up covering a lot of events in
d C because of that, And that's my plans for

(02:10:22):
this weekend. Yeah, do you want to do you want
to give us like an overview of what rallies and
DC have been like the past, let's say, like the
past year. Oh boy do I yeah, let's just for background. Yeah, so,
like pretty much immediately post election, as the whole kind

(02:10:44):
of stop the Steel thing got kicked into gear. UM,
November fourteen, there was a rally in d C. UM,
and then there was one December twelve, and then there
is finally one as most people are probably aware, on
January six. Yeah, January six, you know, obviously got the
bulk of the media coverage. UM. But November fourteenth and

(02:11:06):
especially December twelve were very violent situations in general. UM,
proud boys, General Chud's, a bunch of oathkeepers, bunch of
people's confused memas and pat paps showed up. UM would

(02:11:28):
kind of wander around the Yeah yeah they did. Yeah,
pretty pretty fucked up. I know some people who were
there when they did, and it's I don't know, it's sad,
like it's really bleak. I was there with the people
that you know Yubert, Oh good, yeah, so you I mean,

(02:11:51):
it's just it's so fucking um. I don't know the
extent of the disinformation, right, it's hard when you're talking
about this to like express a lot sympathy for some
of these people. And I'm not sympathetic towards their aims.
I'm not trying to do the New York Times like
let's talk to the Trump voter down the street, but
like a lot of them are just like they're fucking

(02:12:11):
dumb people who bought into some bullshit and it it
destroyed them and their relationships with their families and in
some cases cost them their lives. And like you don't
have to sympathize with them to be like, yeah, that's
bleak as ship, you know. Yeah, And I think you
see that with the dc rallies really more so than
like uh Portland's Proud Boy event for example, that is

(02:12:35):
not at all a gathering of like the masses, that's
that's a specific group of pieces of ship. Yeah yeah,
And like you'd have absolutely like units of Proud Boys
or oath keepers. We had three per centers, some local
Virginia militias, and they'd kind of be wandering around. But
during the day itself, you'd normally see like speakers. Alex
Jones was there. Um got to meet him. That was fun.

(02:12:59):
Um good. That's always a treasure meeting Alex. He's a
great guy. It was really fun. He's his neck. It's
hard to exaggerate how how he is just as red
in person. He's so red, and as a guy who's
good at strangling, it seems like he would be hard

(02:13:20):
to strangle. Oh, nearly impossible. Like that's so big. It's
such like it's like a fucking train car. Like it's
ridiculous how big that man's neck is. Look, most people
aren't hard to strangle. Alex Jones would be. That's not
praising him, that's just being honest. So during the day
there would be speakers, you know, Alex Jones, and you

(02:13:42):
kind of see people split up into whatever they're specific
brand of fucker he is. There's like groups of nerdy
looking gropers. Um, there were some trad cats wearing road
Those guys were fun. But yeah, a lot of it's
you know, confused like boomers on Facebook and kind of
to Robert's point, like I normally didn't go, you know,

(02:14:05):
wearing press credentials because I value knives being outside of
me and not inside of it. Yeah, it's it's good
to not get stabbed. Most people appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
it's one of my favorite things. And so I'd get
to like talking to these people, especially the older ones,
because I take the Metro into the city and they
are mean. They're just confused, old people who have gotten

(02:14:27):
in over their heads. But yeah, then like the sun
would set and that's when the Proud Boys would really
start getting into ship. November they stabbed. I don't know
if I'm remembering this correctly, so feel free to fact
check me, but I believe there was two people on
the uh they cracked a girl's skull, and then on

(02:14:52):
December twelve, they stabbed one other person and Jeremy Bertino
got flayed on this. He shared it, He shared it,
and the f d A elected not to prosecute because
that was the clearest case of self defense I have
ever seen in my life. Um yeah, so, like, like
the dude literally tried to flee three times. He drew

(02:15:14):
his knife after by the third time he was blinded
by having a shirt bold and assaulted by a group
he had no other choice. Yeah, he did exactly what
you're supposed to do in that situation and repeatedly tried
to flee and when he did, and he stabbed a motherfucker.
And you can't, I I can't. He did nothing wrong
in my in my opinion, all the d a's opinion. Yeah,

(02:15:35):
we're all probably better off for it. But yeah, there's
this kind of established Uh, there was this established sort
of cycle of show up a bunch of weird Republican
politicians that you've never heard of before, give speeches. Uh,
you go and kind of wander around, and then the
Proud Boys come out and they funk around, and sometimes

(02:15:57):
other groups too, like Januine Worry. The night before January six,
there were people from NSC one who were hanging out,
trying to cause trouble, getting in altercations all their normal ship.
And so yeah, there's this kind of like general mix
of groups. January six shifted the paradigm on that a lot.

(02:16:20):
And I think that's the big thing for this weekend
is we don't really know it's gonna look like, Yeah,
can you talk about kind of what has kind of
the event promotion looked like from the right, like what
have they what messages have they been putting out to
promote this event with So, yeah, a lot of like
the bigger groups have been fairly explicitly saying like don't

(02:16:45):
go officially. Unofficially is a bit of a different story
and fairness, It's worth noting that prior to UM the
United Rally and Charlottesville, the Proud Boys were saying don't go,
and an awful lot of their most violent members were
at Unite the Right in Charlotte'sville. You know, it's some
some of this is a plausible deniability game. Yeah, So

(02:17:08):
like the official Proud Boys telegram channel was like, oh,
this is I mean in different words, but we're pretty
much like this is a honeypot, this is the trap,
this is an op don't go UM. But also like
we've seen activity that really suggests otherwise UM. Whether it's
like smaller, more local groups saying that they want to go,

(02:17:30):
or UH streamers and journalists using the word lightly to
UH who have pretty close relationships with these groups, hiring
extra stringers for the weekend, or looking like they're preparing
to report on something big. Yeah, the kind of the
I know, we've talked a little bit um online with

(02:17:53):
some of our colleagues, and there's definitely a mixed a mixed,
a mixed opinion on how big the event is going
to be and who's all going to be there and
what kind of their goal is, which makes kind of
everything all the more tense because you know, it's almost
easier to when we know what it's going to be,
like we like we have a good grasp and what's
gonna happen, and this we're not really sure. Um do

(02:18:16):
you do you know, has there been any kind of
response from like local DC officials, like like law enforcement
or anything about what they're gonna do at this gathering?
So I did see Capital Police is planning to put
the fence back up. Um probably a good idea, yeah, yeah,
which like will cover the capital. But there's also a

(02:18:36):
problem with the fence going up, which is the back
of the fence goes right up to the end of
the Black Lives Matter Plaza in d C, which has
been used as kind of a rallying point for uh
anti fascist activists, and when that fence is up, it's
just it's a funnel. The so it goes like this

(02:19:02):
is an of visual medium. There's a street, uh, and
that's where Black Lives Matter plause is, And there's only
two exits, and both those exits lead to hotels that
proud boys and Chud's love to stay in. So what happens,
almost without fail is people go and hang out in
the plaza. You know, Chud's come down the streets. Police

(02:19:22):
form a line, and it's pretty much a pre made kettle, right,
So that's like not good. Uh, it's good for the capital,
but it's not good for the people that will be
on the ground. Yeah, because they're also as is most
of these events. UM, there has been some organizing locally
and even you know uh and de fashions from around

(02:19:45):
kind of the country trying to like put out advice
and feelers and like what to do for the specific gathering. UM.
And I know there's been there's been a decent amount
of you know, there's there's always like debate and conflict
of around how much to show up, where to show up,
you know, how proact people should be. UM. But because

(02:20:05):
this is the first big rally since j six, I
feel like there's a lot of people. I feel it's
much more important and like the people have like you know,
there's there's there's like there's like a heightened sense around
the specific thing. Um. Do you know like how many
people are kind of roughly planning to show up on
like the anti fascist side. It's really hard to tell,

(02:20:26):
um d C anti fascist actions. I've seen, you know,
a couple dozen people in block towards close to a hundred.
I would um, from what I've heard, the kind of
main counter demo that's happening is uh, definitely less radical

(02:20:47):
and it's kind of trying to establish sort of a
community space thing. Uh. So I would say, I don't know,
expect around fifty like people who are there to throw hands, yeah,
and a lot more people who are just kind of there.

(02:21:07):
I mean, it's it's this, Uh, it's this thing we saw.
I was in d C for Unite the Right too,
you know, the second rally, and it it didn't turn
into much of a thing. You know. I think because
of the preparation, the expectation, and I guess I'm interested
in if you think I'm wrong on this, but my
current expectation is that maybe that might be the most

(02:21:30):
likely outcome because because of the degree of and the
unexpected event already occurred and was awful. I'm not expecting
anyone will be given free leash, you know, yeah, I
could definitely see that sort of Unite the Right to
scenario playing out, especially because it is very similar, like
there was this massive, shocking event that kind of yeah,

(02:21:58):
and so then people will I think the only big
difference is, like in the aftermath of Unite the Right,
you kind of saw at times of misguided media focus,
but still a media focus on anti fascist activists as
playing a unique role when you didn't have that for

(02:22:18):
January six, And I think that's that's really one of
my bigger worries is less so kind of clashes between
chud's and uh anti fascists, which is still I mean,
you know, that's always a thing that may happen, but
also like you have to think these chuds that are coming,
when they look at DC police, they see someone, they

(02:22:40):
see the people who killed Ashley Babbitt. When the DC
police look at these Chudd's, they're the people who beat
someone beat one of their co workers to death. And
you're like, there's Capital Police not same as DC Metro Police,

(02:23:01):
but like in the minds of both these groups. That
doesn't really matter, and I worry about the tension there.
I like, I don't care if they mace each other.
You know, if the Proud Boys and Cops mace each other,
then that's a great day for me. But if it

(02:23:22):
escalates further, and you know, we're seeing that more and
more the past, was it past to kind of major
right wing rallies in the Pacific Northwest have had shots fired? Yep, yep, yea.
Every every reason PW protest has involved gun fire. Yeah,

(02:23:44):
and like the one the August one had, I guess,
I guess you could call it a legitimate change, Yeah,
a casual gunfight. I mean, the the start of it
was legitimate. The right winger who fired was not legitimate, um,
But the two people on the left who responded, we're

(02:24:06):
doing so in self defense. Now, what happened a couple
of weeks later, from the video that's come out, was
not self defense. It was a guy shooting at somebody
pursuing them from like fifty feet back. You know, it
was not legally what you would call self defense for
certain Yeah, and that kind of the precedent that that's set,
which I think it's happened a few enough times that

(02:24:28):
we can't really say that it's it's the norm or
anything like that, but it's still it's an escalation. It's
something absolutely is did Like if that, if that had
happened in when Unite the Right happened like that would
have been unprecedented. It's very frightening, you know, and it

(02:24:51):
it should be. It doesn't matter what you think about
the morality of shooting tiny you know or whatever. Exchanges
of fire becoming more common is a threat to everybody,
and it is something that should concern everybody. Yeah, I mean,
it reminds me a lot of and this was kind
of the impetus of the first season of it could

(02:25:14):
happen here, but like the early days of something like
the Syrians of Award where it went from protests to
exchanges of gunfire too. You know what it is. Now
do you think DC specific gun laws um will make
gunfire in DC a little bit less likely? Do you think?

(02:25:36):
I don't? Like? Still like the police always have that
capacity if they feel, um, you know, if if they
choose to, but more specific on like the right between people,
I don't know, it's like no boogs are going to
show up or whatever. Um, what kind of talk do
you see around firearms? So yeah, kind of just from experience,
I think my worry with DC's gun laws is only

(02:25:58):
one side will be armed every time that Chedd's come
to d C. I mean they are obviously carrying. I mean,
every single one of them is print is printing. You
can tell that they have firearms on them. They don't
really try to hide it, and none of them have
ever I mean, I guess apart from Tario getting arrested

(02:26:20):
for illegal magazines, like, none of them have really faced
any consequences for that. And the general fear among people
on the left is well, even if I do come
and I carry for self defense, if I get arrested
for something unrelated, that will enhance whatever charges I get. Yeah. No,

(02:26:44):
it's sketchy and it's Um, I don't I'm not convinced
in the situation d C is in specifically, that showing
up with a fucking firearm is the right call. You know,
I'm not in this business to lecture people, but I'm
not convinced that's going to help. In the Pacific Northwest,
we've seen situations where people with weapons, as on the
twenty two defended themselves and others. And we've seen situations

(02:27:08):
in which people on the web with weapons on the
left escalated things. So it's not a it's never a
zero sum game, you know, it's not. It's not a
simple issue. Is a neutral tool, you know. Yeah, And
I don't want to, like, I don't want it to
come off like I'm encouraging, you know, every person in
block to show up with a long gun like that,

(02:27:30):
because that would be a fucking disaster most likely. But
also like, I don't like the idea of, you know,
looking at a line of Proud Boys or something and
knowing every single one of these people has a gun,
and I do not. That's an imbalance of force that

(02:27:51):
I don't like when things, if things do escalate. No,
that that's completely reasonable in my opinion. But I mean,
I think the big thing is just there's so many unknowns. Uh,
you know, we've never really there's not much of a
historical precedent for group tries to overthrow the government, group

(02:28:14):
shows back up in d C months later, or elements
of the same kind of ideology. Yeah, we just don't know.
I mean, even like I think that Unite the Right
to example is similar, but also like markedly different enough

(02:28:35):
that I don't know if it's an all encompassing tool
for like this is what it's gonna look like. Yeah,
is there any like specific players that you know is
going to show up or or have like said that
they're going to show up. So one that I kind
of worry about is, um, oh, I'm gonna get fucking

(02:28:56):
tweets for this, God damnit. Um. So there's a group
in Virginia that you may have heard of, b LM
seven five seven. Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah. Uh.
They are based out of the Virginia Beach area and
they're the biggest pain in the ass ever um they

(02:29:17):
work with. They claim to be a Black Lives Matter organization.
The local Black Lives Matter organizations have to announced them.
They work with Boogloo boys. They were very tight with
Mike Dunn before he uh snitched and roped off the
face of the earth. Yeah. Um. And then yeah, they

(02:29:38):
come and I don't like the idea of them coming
to a town that is not familiar with them, because
like they come to Richmond, for example, and people are like, oh,
there's b l M seven seven. We don't funk with them.
But they come. You know, they come to a town
or groups like this like uh n f a C.
Theyre not not fucking around. Coalition tried to come to

(02:30:00):
d C, and I these groups that are gonna be armed,
are gonna want to escalate and are gonna kind of
try to slide in to like a counter demo or
stick around like the more left leaning parts of the crowd,
and then could very quickly escalate things. So they're one

(02:30:22):
that I'm worried about. Some local Virginia Militia Movement players
have been chatting about it. I haven't seen really that
much in the way of like definitive statements that they're
gonna go um and those guys don't really worry me.
There a bunch of nerds who like to play dress

(02:30:44):
up in the woods mostly. But yeah, it's again, it's
just like these kind of unknowns. Yeah, so just like
not knowing who's going to show up and what they're
gonna do and where'll they're be and yeah, yeah, like
and this was a thing. Definitely. It reminds me a
lot of the first stop, the Steel Rally, where we

(02:31:06):
had more concrete groups saying we're gonna be there. There's
a lot of more chatter about it on social media,
but it was still kind of like I don't know
like what range of the sort of right wing ideological
spectrum will be here, Like I know, you know Q
and on your Q and on uncle will be there.
But like, for example, on November four, uh, Jason Kessler

(02:31:30):
was there, the organizer of Unite the Right. I literally
bumped into Jason Kessler, like I was walking and my
shoulder hit him and I looked up and I was like, oh, sorry, dude,
and then I just kind of stopped and I was like, oh, ship,
I recognize you. Yeah, you're that famous piece of ship. Yeah.

(02:31:52):
But yeah, So like it's kind of that same thing
where we don't we really just don't have that much intel,
and it seems like, you know, people with access to
more streams of information than us, like the FEDS have
been saying for I guess a couple of months now,
like we're monitoring this situation where like preparing to stop

(02:32:17):
another January six, which take it with a grain of salt.
It is the FEDS, but also like part of me,
a lot of the worry I get from this is
people that I know no more than I do, reacting
to it like chud streamers hiring stringers, FEDS saying like

(02:32:38):
announcing months before that it's a situation that they're preparing for.
A lot of people are very interested in what's going
to happen. I think people are definitely preparing for a
lot of different different outcomes, and that makes any kind
of resistance to it hard because you don't know if
you're over if you're over preparing, under preparing, You don't
know if you'll have what you'll do. Your prepary to

(02:33:00):
it is too aggressive and not aggressive enough. Yeah, yeah,
and always trying to like you know, feel it out
once you're there is more scary because once you're there
in person, a lot of communications breakdown between other you know,
other activists that that's what happened in like the last
big rally in Portland is people try to know change
up plans once they got to the spot, and it
kind of made everything a lot a lot more challenging

(02:33:22):
because it's hard to a lot of a lot of
people in block don't have their phone on them. It's
just it's hard to get ride. It's you know, any
kind of any kind of impromptu organizing at the site.
It's always gonna be way more challenged than trying to
figure this stuff out at home. And yeah, that's just
kind of I don't know, it's it's I think I
think the United the right to background is useful for

(02:33:42):
like a big event after you know, a previous event
that had a lot of coverage and had a lot
of talk about it because it had, you know, a
disastrous outcome. And then I think looking at you know,
looking at November fourteen in December ten, um are also
are also kind of val able indicators. Has there been
any have you seen anything around the grapers or like

(02:34:04):
any of the Fuentes crew showing up to this or
they are they trying to just are they are they
trying to like keep good optics? I guess I've as
far as I've seen, they're mostly trying to keep good
optics around us. Um they as they also kind of
fall into the category of like people I'm not super

(02:34:25):
worried about like some of them. Yeah, but in like
a street fight situation, in a street fight less so
I'm not worried about a groper. Yeah, the most violent
encounter I've ever had with a groper was one that
was probably five ft tall. Following me around and calling

(02:34:45):
me a soy boy for thirty minutes. Yeah. But what
I'm more concerned about is is Graper is kind of
following the in CeAl terrorism tradition of you know, skinny
of skinny white guys getting access to weapons and than
than doing something uh not with the gun is dangerous. Yeah. Yeah,
and they're not going yeah here finished what you were saying. Yeah,

(02:35:09):
I'm just saying, like, you know, all all of the
Grapers I've seen, they're not going to beat me in
a fist fight because they're all even even more they're
not even more like because your fastest ship. But yeah,
and and that and that. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's
kind of another thing that's you know, it's always a
possibility of these things. Like I always say, like the

(02:35:31):
worst possible outcome is someone someone starts shooting, like a
firefight is always the worst way this could go. But
with the sort of optics surrounding this, I I think
there's definitely space for more extreme people, uh specifically more

(02:35:54):
accelerationist minded people to try to start something, to try
to cause ship. I mean, uh, like I said, I'm
in Virginia. I think of the Richmond gun rally in
the lobby day in what was that twenty nineteen beginning

(02:36:14):
of I Forget all Time is a flat circle to
me now, but um, the members of the base that
we're intercepted on their way to Richmond. Uh. I think
about that situation and how other people and other groups
that we will not talk about on POD could see

(02:36:39):
an opportunity here. Yeah, And I think that's I think
that's more likely happening in somewhere like DC than it
is in Portland's right, because in Portland we have a
pretty good grip on who shows up and why they
show up. The East coast, the south, um, northeast, Southeast,
they have a lot more groups with interested with you know,

(02:37:01):
obscure ideologies that are more think more prone to those
types of to those types of like um, more insurgent attacks.
And I think people are on the West coast. Yeah.
And I think another thing that kind of amplifies that is,
like you said, like Portland has kind of an established
infrastructure of chud fuckery, you know. I mean, I'm on

(02:37:28):
the other side of the country and I know the
familiar faces of Portland's bullshit, and we we do have
that to an extent, but d C brings people from
all across the country. I was meeting people on the
metro from everywhere from Tennessee to Kansas to California. And

(02:37:51):
when people are coming in from such a broad range
of places, there's a lot more uncertainty. Yeah, well, I'm
not sure and anything else you want to mention about
kind of what you expect at this rally and any
I don't know general advice has since you've been at
the past three versions. Yeah, so, I mean, if you're

(02:38:12):
in the DC area or you're nearby, and you're comfortable
with it and physically able to do so, I show up. Um.
The one thing that we do know for sure about
these events is that the more bodies we have, the
less likely it is for people to be able to

(02:38:35):
pray on someone walking home from work or houseless person
just trying to sleep. Yeah, the more bodies that we have,
the better it is. Um. If you are either unable
to come or you don't feel comfortable coming, I know
that there will be jail support mutual aid efforts UH

(02:39:00):
and Garrison. I can send you to some links to
local d C orgs if you want to throw it
in the show. Notes. Um. But yeah, just and if
you're gonna go, be prepared, have have a buddy, uh
lock up, bring h bringing I FAK, and get ready

(02:39:23):
to party. Yeah. I think that's one of the things
you mentioned is like more numbers helps in the case
of it's less likely they'll be like roaming attacks, because
that's what we've seen at a lot of these rallies
is that sometimes they don't ever like actually cause trouble
at where people are, you know, like where the where
the people are. They wait until people are walking away

(02:39:44):
or going back to their car, or if there's no
one like that, they just find some random person on
the street. You know. We saw a lot of that
in d C of of Proud Boys just finding kind
of people in the area that they thought looked like
Antifa quote unquote and then just attacking them. Um. So know,
the less scattered people are, um, the less likely to
get kind of those roaming attacks. Yeah, I think. I mean,

(02:40:09):
it's it's always hard to speculate on the event on
an event that hasn't happened yet, but I believe by
the time, by the time the airs, it will be
happening tomorrow. So as Saturday, THEO do you want to
plug anything? Yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Um
at THEO Hansen, THEO with a zero. Uh. Listen to

(02:40:29):
my podcast Terrorism Bad. We look through portrayals of terrorism
and extremism in popular media. See how it holds up
to the real world. Um, trying to think of anything else.
I'll be there on Saturday. I'll be live tweeting the event.
I'm not live tweeting that dead or otherwise incapacitated or

(02:40:52):
I don't have cell service. Service is always horrible at
these things. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, it's a constant problem. Yeah.
They were blocking signals on January six on the Capitol lawn,
and when I stepped off, I had like thirteen texts
from all my friends that were like, hey, text me
if you're still alive. It's really hard to tell what's

(02:41:13):
going on, you know, when you're when you're like whether
or not it's like a cell signal problem, or if
it's somebody like targeting you in particular, it's frustrating. Yeah,
all right, well, thank you, cl thank you for giving
us the rundown on Saturday's activities. UM, I hope you
don't get shot, Thank you. I hope I do not

(02:41:33):
as well. That's my general feeling towards anyone who shows
up on uh, you know, on the eighteenth in d C.
I hope you don't get shot. Do your best. Yeah,
and if you do get shot, you know what to
do about it? Well? Yeah, I have a have a
have a care a minute, you know, have some cell locks. Yeah,

(02:41:54):
that's ideal, But not getting shot is better. So you
cannot remember what Try not to get shot, all right.
Thanks for having me on guys. Nice to meet you,
Robert and Sophie. Thanks to meet you. You can follow
us That Happened Here pod on Twitter, Instagram and at
cool Zone Media for all the things and we'll be
back Monday. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes

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