It Could Happen Here Weekly 9

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On April four, Dr Martin Luther King was shot and
killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray
was arrested. Case closed right James Sylvay was a pawn
for the official story. Some of the evidence, as far
as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This

(00:21):
is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now.
Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. This is Roxanne Gay, the
host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad feminist podcast
of your Dreams. Each week I talked to an interesting
person about feminism, race, writing in books, and art, food,

(00:44):
pop culture, and yes, politics, we can't escape politics. Listen
to the Luminary original podcast to Roxanne Gay Agenda every
Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Gonzalez, the host
of s i s new podcast, Sports Illustrated Weekly. Sports

(01:07):
Illustrated has delivered some of the best storytelling in sports
for seventy years and now that continues on our show.
Each week will dive deep into the best stories from
around the sports world. Sports Illustrated Weekly is available every
Wednesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe. Now, Hey, everybody, Robert

(01:32):
Evans here, and I wanted to let you know. This
is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week
that just happened is here in one convenient and with
somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in
a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening
to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be
nothing new here for you, but you can make your
own decisions. Welcome to it happens sometimes the podcast where

(02:02):
it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody, somebody picked
this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody got help
out of this one? Okay, Well, you know what podcasts
this is. You've been listening, presumably for months, or this
is your first time listening. If so, I've probably lost
you already with that Bush League introduction. Jesus christ Um,

(02:25):
I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about how things
fall apart and how to maybe stop them from falling
apart as much. And today we're talking to some people
who were in kind of the best case scenario situation
for having a bunch of authoritarians try to UH dominate
your country, by which I mean we're talking to some

(02:46):
Chilean activists who who who won? Um, inasmuch as it's
it's possible to win in the world. UM, it's a
pretty exciting situation. UM happening there. I'm excited to introduce
people to like what's been going on. But first I
want to introduce our guests for today. UM, y'all wanna
you'll wanna say hello. Hello. My name is Jeremiah. I'm

(03:09):
from the United States. I've lived in Chile for the
last ten years, and I'm Stephanie Ahead, I'm a Chilian
and I'm leaving here with with my my husband. And Hi.
I'm Nicholas. Um, I'm too, and I have been living
here for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a

(03:32):
small group called Unitos to do some activism to try
to get out the vote for the Plelicito, to try
to UH last year to get the constitution approved to
be voted on, and and it was successful. So we

(03:53):
are proud of the small bit of work that we
did to help that happen. And so today the constitution
is being written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah.
And I want to let's pull back a little bit
because the last time we we talked about UM, Chile
on behind the bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM
a protest that started as some I think it's fair
to say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping

(04:17):
fares at the at the underground the subway, UM was
met with police doing police stuff, which was met with
people taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which
is the thing that by now a lot more people
are experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in
my country, you did it. You made him blink, and
and that's what the plebiscite is, right, Like the there

(04:39):
was an agreement made to give because Chile was still,
if I'm not mistaken, governed under the same constitution that
that Pinochet had had, right UM, and Pinochet famously not
a great guy. UM, So I wonder if you might
give us kind of an overview of y'all's experience during

(04:59):
that time time, from like the start of the protests
to oh ship, we might actually get to change things
at a pretty fundamental level in our country. UM. Yeah,
so it was incredible time about exactly two years ago,
so just the eighth of October was just a two
year anniversary. And um, as you said, it all started

(05:21):
with um literal high schoolers, sixteen year olds who were
protesting a thirty paso increase, which is, you know, like
increase in the metro. But we of course have one
of the most expensive metros in the world and a
very low um uh minimum wage here. And so as

(05:45):
you said, they went out there and started to jump
the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds of them going
to the metro together and all jumping um together. And
in response, the government ended up closing the metros. And
so it was this Friday night, UM, and we were

(06:08):
having dinner and uh, suddenly the metros were all closed
and everyone had to just walk home from work or
dinner or where they were. And that was kind of
the beginning of everything. And it was almost like the
government brought it on themselves, because suddenly there were thousands
of people in the streets just because they had no
other way to get home and from there, Uh, they

(06:32):
there were protests, and the protests were met with extreme
police oppression and water cannons and tear gas and all
of that, and UM. Eventually it led to one March,
which had over a million people throughout Chile marching and

(06:53):
UM a series of marches and protests basically every week
for months. UM and finally UH it came down to UH.
They announced that there would be this Plebilist site and
it was a vote, UM, yes or no to create
a new constitution, because yes, Chile is still There were

(07:17):
some reforms in the early two thousands to the constitution,
but UM still U we live under the constitution written
by him Gustman, UM kind of you know, Cha's right
hand man, and we happen to live. Nico is our
good friend and also our next door neighbor, and we
live about four blocks from the Plaza UM formerly Plaza Italia.

(07:42):
Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza Dignidad, and so
we've been just in the middle of it. And UH
for for a couple of months, our our whole neighborhood
was like a war zone and UH, just really crazy
protests every single day and and tear gas and all

(08:03):
of that, and it was it was really intense for
a while, and it still is. You know. UM, last Friday, UH,
we you know, were met with tear gas and water
cannons again. So it's it's it's even though the kind
the constitution is being written again and the pledgliscite was

(08:25):
a year ago, but the police are still out there
being bastards. Yeah. I'm curious what each of you kind
of sees as the moment when or if you because
maybe I was going too optimistic, right Like I guess
I'm wondering, do you think that a corner has been turned,
and and if so, what was kind of the moment

(08:46):
each of you felt that like, oh my god, we
might actually this isn't just gonna be like showing up
to get the ship kicked out of us. We were
going to get somewhat least of what we're fighting for.
Wait technic Yeah, I mean I think that like that
particular moment was when we finally went to the elections

(09:06):
to who you call the referendum for the for this
new constitution, and we were kind of skeptic about the
percentage of people who approved this new constitution because a
few months ago or a few weeks before this referendum,
we have like continuing questions polls. We had the polls

(09:30):
and they were kind of fifty, so we're kind of
skeptic about are we gonna have a new constitution or not?
And that the same night, I mean, the process very quick,
so after I know, the this thing close at six
pm and then you have the results like three hours later.
So on the same day we're having the results and

(09:52):
it was like eighty against twenties. So it was like
kind of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody
was expecting to have this kind of eight percent of
the people until they were I want to throw to
the being the you know, tech constitution. So it's kind
of like, I know, I will say that the best moment. Yeah,

(10:17):
there's this. There's an American, a deceased American um sociologist
who who wrote an essay that I find quite influential
called the Shock of Victory, and it's about how activists
often failed to take advantage of of their momentum, like
because they're kind of surprised at the success early on,
and then they don't properly take advantage of what they

(10:39):
have when they have it, and and you know, progress
gets turned back, which I think we've seen happen in
the United States in the wake of of what happened
here last summer. Why do you think that that hasn't
happened in Chile? What do you think it is that
that that enabled UM, you you all to actually keep
the pressure on and and take advantage of that that

(11:00):
mint in time, which which never I guess that's what
I'm impressed with the most, is that you you all
did manage to make that momentum work for you rather
than kind of letting it pull you off balance. And
I guess I'm just trying to get a handle on
on how UM. I guess for me, what I think
it's lost a lot in the conversation is UM the

(11:20):
premier LINEA, so the first line of defense. And so
you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, you know,
just crazy young people who went out there to fight
with the cops every single day, and it was really
impressive and a lot of times we uh, I don't know,

(11:43):
I feel like they don't get the credit they deserve
because you know, they're the delintements and that you know,
we talk a lot about the big marches when there
was a million people in the street and and obviously,
like Nico said, winning the vote by seventy percent showed
that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. But

(12:06):
it never would have happened if it weren't for the
this small group of of fighters who were there every
single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and police
beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and stuff
like that. So I think that's the main thing. It

(12:28):
wasn't like once a month or even once a week.
It was every single day, and they were there on
the front line, and it none of this would be
possible without them. That's fascinating to me because obviously things
like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland,
went every night for not as long, but for not
an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same

(12:49):
It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists,
front liners who were willing to go toe to toe
with the cops every night. But you didn't have you
didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate popular lists
backing them up. And I guess one of the things
I'm curious about is what was kind of the you
mentioned you don't think they get the credit they deserve.
Was there a broad attitude that like, these people are

(13:10):
the ones going face to face with the cops so
that those of us, you know, people who are older,
people who aren't and it's going to ship people who
can't physically take as much abuse can still show up
or was it. I'm kind of curious how how those
people represented what they were doing and how it how
it was seen by most of kind of the more
moderate people who still supported change around you, because that

(13:31):
that dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and I'm
it worked where you are, and I'm trying to get
a handle on maybe how it was different than what
I saw in Portland. Uh so now a lot of
them are in Yo and um or without one eye,
so is uh, it's really terrible because we have all

(13:53):
these new beautiful process but we are you know, uh,
really completely democracy with liberty with the for this guy
or or democracy for all this um person that loose

(14:14):
eyes or uh yeah and everyone that was injured. Um so, yeah,
a lot of protests nowadays. Actually, I think today right
now there's a protest going on to free the political
prisoners um and uh. But yeah, I mean I think

(14:38):
they're even among you know, obviously of the country voted
for the new constitution. So there's a lot of different
points of view there. But but yeah, there was division
even among the left. A lot of people said, you know,
this is not the form of this is not the
way to protest, and we should not be violent and
you know, burning things and um. But but there was

(15:02):
a lot I mean, you saw a lot of the
opposite where people were were saying, just as you said,
like those out there on the front line are the
reason that the older people and others can come out
and feel safer to protest because the Primary LINEA is
kind of taking the brunt of the violence from the police,

(15:25):
and that allows the older people and those who are
are less confrontational to be out there in protest. So
for me, some of some of the most inspiring signs
I remember seeing are like folks that are eighty years
old and they have signs that say, you know, Gracia
sala Primary LINEA. You know, like thank you to the

(15:47):
front liners who who are taking that violence so that
they are able the others to to protest um in
a more peaceful way. That's such a fascinating situation to
me that you've got You've got these these more radical
frontliners who were, as you say, critical in allowing this,
this really groundbreaking change to occur in your society. But

(16:09):
at the same time, things haven't changed enough that Number one,
the cops will beat the ship out of them, I'm
guessing are still largely employed, um and and a bunch
of them are in jail. Do you have much hope
that at the very least there will be something to
like get these people out or is it is that
maybe a bridge. I don't know, I don't know your

(16:29):
country obviously, Well, you know, I'm curious, like, do you
feel like there's much hope in pushing for that, because
it seems like, you know, those people need to be free. Yeah.
I mean, most of these guys who are in prison
and they have spent like, oh no, like twelve months
in prison without any evidence, so only the world of

(16:49):
the cops against them. So after I know, like thirteen
months for two months, they will finally get released because
they have they have no evidence, or they could they
you may find that the police they made up all
the evidence, so they they finally go out. But I mean,
you spend like almost a year in prison, that's yeah,

(17:12):
it's clearly like political. I mean you're a political prisoner,
like they got They got you in prison with no evidence,
without any probit process. They keep you in prison for
a year. Um, who's gonna pay for that? I mean
you lost a year. Yeah, Like we're talking so far
about the sacrifice is made here. What do you think

(17:34):
with this new constitution? You and your your your fellow Chileans.
What are you gonna get? Like? How what are the
changes that are seemed to be most concrete and the
ones that you think are most important. I think already
it's been groundbreaking. I believe it's the only constitution ever
to be written by a plurality of women and and

(17:58):
also to have a representation from the indigenous peoples. And
so it's already been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um.
The President of the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring
um Mapuche leader woman. UM. And the good thing is

(18:23):
that the right um it represents less than one third
of the Constitutional Convention, so they don't have the power
to block um anything uh as far as only by
the right. So we will see. But they literally just

(18:45):
started writing the constitution last week. So yeah, yeah, it's
still but that's I mean, that's that's a significant Is
there a kind of a broad agreement that one of
the things that needed to happen here was a redress
of grievances between the indigenous people UM and the and
the state because it's it sounds like that's a significant

(19:05):
chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon. Just but
like how this is coming together? Yeah so, uh, well,
Nicole probably tell a lot more about this than I could.
But Um, there's a big deal with the United with
the indigenous people in the South and the government UM

(19:26):
basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, uh, two
weeks ago, Nia the current right wing president UM declared
a state of emergency in the South and he just
extended it for fifteen more days. So we have the
military in the south, um, and they are you know,

(19:47):
with the tanks and attaching attacking the the Mapuche and
other indigenous people there. And uh so Yeah, a big
aspect of Chile right now is the the the fight
between and and the oppression of the government against the
native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. I mean,

(20:10):
it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here in Chile
are are mixed, you know, between the the natives and
and the white men and everything. And you know the
Europeans um, but the Mapuche and the other indigenous groups
have really not um received a lot of respect in

(20:32):
the last thirty years. And and so yeah, that's a
big aspect. Yeah, I'll say, like for me, it's very
inspiring to have like the pressing of this new constitution
to be uh I'm a picture woman. Oh um, yeah,
I mean I guess that the most important thing, like

(20:55):
the thing that this indigenous people want to call is
the land. I mean land for them is the most
important thing. And that's what the government only for the
last three hundred years they have been taken from to them. Um.
They are now like trying to claim again their their
their space. So I mean let's call that this new

(21:17):
constitution will bring them back their land, um, their respect
that they deserve. Now there's been a lot of discussion
about this new constitution as I think the term used
as an ecological constitution um, and it's it's the necessity
of it addressing a lot of the climate, not just
climate change, but like a lot of the things caused
by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um. There's

(21:41):
been discussion in the Asio Coasta of of the f
I m A and GEO has Has is arguing currently
that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right to
water and recognize it as a common good. Um. It's
obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's kind
of unclear if that's going to happen. Um. But I'm
I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think it's

(22:02):
actually because as you've talked about, you know, with the
protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South,
this is not a finished fight. Um, It's just a
fight that a lot of progress has been made on.
What do you think is reasonable to expect from this
new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in
terms of ecological justice. I will so I think the

(22:24):
right of the of water. H So water is privatized here,
so chileans here in Santiago, we have to pay a
Spanish company too for our water. Sure. UM. I would say,
like the economy in this country is based on like strativism,
So you have like the most productive thing is mining,

(22:46):
and then you have like the forest three. Um, all
these things like they have an enormous impact on the
environment and the people. Until I mean the people who
live right next to these kind of things, they don't
get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are
like right next to the first three, rightness to the mining.

(23:08):
So it's kind of like we're creating a lot of
income from these things, but we're not getting anything from
them and all. I mean. Also, it's not like a
thing like let's get everything back to the state, I
mean to the state, because it's it's more than that.
It's just like like, um, ecological equality equity. Yeah. Yeah,

(23:34):
it's not saying we should take all of the private
water and give it to the state as much as
it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a
personal right to enough water to survive. Yeah. So you
have rounds where small little towns and they don't have
any water to drink because all of their water is
to the going to the farm owned by Nestley to make,

(23:58):
you know, to grow avocados to sell to Europe and
the United States. So um, yeah, it's it's uh, it's
it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things that's
most interesting to me about your situation is you you
are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar from

(24:18):
the United States, you have a police in a military
that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously,
like the United States is partly responsible for that. In
your case, we we funded it for a very long time.
Um and uh, and so it's still an ongoing fight.
But at the same time, clearly the people are unhappy

(24:40):
enough with that situation and hold like that they were
able to make they were able to force the folks
with with guns to um, to recognize that they can't
hold on to everything that they wanted to hold onto.
And I, I guess, I'm what, how can we do that? Um?

(25:03):
I'm very impressed by like, and you know, watching from
the sidelines, I was just so happy to see this
not go where I think we were all scared it
might go, you know, in either the direction with like Syria,
where it turns into this horrible blood bath or where
everything gets crushed you know it. And and I I'm wondering,
like why you think on a on a broader scale,

(25:25):
what do you think was responsible for those people with
access to the guns deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah,
I'm just I'm so intensely curious about that because it's
it's it's important for a lot of people and a
lot of other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I think it was just the protest and

(25:46):
the daily protests and and just getting pressure, keeping the
pressure on. And at some point, you know, it's like, hey,
this is not good for the economy, you know, like
so all of the rich people, um, and you know,
the ten families that are in control of you know,
sixty or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah,

(26:10):
and they at some point had to recognize that this
was something that that you know, had reached its boiling
point and and that they could no longer respond with
just force because they tried it and it didn't work
for months and it was just months and months of
protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a

(26:34):
hit to the economy, and that caused a hit to
the wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at
some point they realized that they had no other move
to play than to accept it in some way and uh.
And that's how we got, you know, this new constitution
that is being written. One thing I was interested about

(26:59):
is did geography of the protest because I know Chile
very urban population. And also it was is it like
it's like a quarter of the population or something lives
in Santiago, like in that area. And I'm yeah, so sorry.
I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken, there
were only five. You have kind of communes instead of states,

(27:22):
is what they're called. Um, like ten voted in favor
of the referendum and only five voted against it. If
I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities like different
It's like Burroughs in New York, but we have different
regions instead of states. And um, and I think they

(27:43):
all voted. Yeah, there might be like seven voted. But
what you might be thinking of, um, yeah, Robert, you
might be thinking of communes in Santiago. Where Santiago is
very Um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, the
river which goes east to west across the city. And

(28:05):
basically you have this like very rich part on the
east and up into the hills and um, and then
it gets poorer and poorer as you go to the west.
And um. Yeah. For the vote for the constitution, Um,
it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes,

(28:27):
these ultra rich in the east. Oh, wow, amazing. Okay.
Thing something I was curious about this was so when
when the protests were going on, um, because you know,
Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the
last decade. What I was interested stid also with this
time is like, well, hey, what do you think it's

(28:49):
different about this than say like two thousand eleven wasn't thirteen?
And then be in terms of like the geographic breakdown
of where people are and where they're going? Is it
that you know? So so you have this have this
classified in the city, but we're we're the working class districts,
like we're people staying there in the stra structure where
they like moving from those places like to protest inside

(29:12):
of the richer urban areas. I would say, like, I mean, yeah,
we have like many protests in the past, but there
were more kind of like I don't know, like students protests,
and then you have like you know, like the university protests.
But when we have like this protest like that the

(29:33):
one we have on to Townside nineteen, it's like something
that unites everyone. I mean, you don't have to be
a student, you don't have to go to university to protest.
I mean, it's something that it's affecting everyone. I mean
the fairs of the Metro, they affect everything, and they
in equality in the country affects everyone. So UM, I
mean that I guess that's that's the thing that make

(29:54):
this protests of the todasan nineteen unique in this term. Yeah,
and I think it was actually a problem when all
the protests were happening. A lot of people were saying,
we can't keep going to the plaza. You know, the
cops are just going to wait for us in the plaza,
and you know it's going to be a ship show,
and we need to you know, protest all over And

(30:16):
there were protests across Chile and every single major city. UM,
but I will say the majority of the protests have
been um here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta
where the presidential palace and UM but some of the
most memoriable protests and and the Coast and Eera Center,

(30:38):
the tallest building in Latin America, which is a mall
and a monument to this idea that Pinera has of
UM the way of Chile being an oasis in South America.
We're not like other countries where we're like the United States,
you know, where this capital is some capitalists oasis and exactly. Um.

(31:05):
But but yeah, so some of the most memorial protests,
they weren't super common, but we're exactly that where the
people said, you know what, we're not going to the plaza,
We're going to Coast Nara Center, or we're going to
Vita Kara, We're going to where the millionaires live, where
they work. And um. That those were really powerful. And

(31:26):
so that's when you started to see like all of
those banks and malls and just blocks and blocks of
what the rich folk like to call Sanhattan, you know,
Santiago Manhattan, the skyscraper part of the city, and it
was just all boarded up, you know. Um because there

(31:49):
there were definitely a couple of weeks where the protests
went that way and and and yeah, it was inspiring.
What I keep coming back to when I look about
like why it worked, It wasn't because the front liners
just kept the pressure up, because the front liners did.
In a lot of places here, the front liners stayed
out well after everyone else stopped coming out. It's that

(32:11):
the population kept up the pressure. Like the there were
like Chile as a as a as a nation, as
a as a people kept up the pressure in in
a in a pretty significant way, um as opposed to
kind of fading back after the first couple of weeks.
And I mean it, I think I'm sure the question

(32:33):
of why it happened has a lot to do with,
like you said, inequality, you know, things that have been
going on for decades. It's it's a it's a complex situation,
but it does seem like that's one of the big
takeaways that if you can you can secure even in
even in a pretty terrifying situation, a lot of concessions,
a lot of of what you need. But but people

(32:55):
have to have to keep putting themselves out there. Yeah. Absolutely,
I would say it's a couple of things. Um. One
is um as you mentioned, I think it's like the
culture of protests here, you know, especially in the last
ten years, like um with the revolution, Penguin and mices

(33:17):
inn um, you know, and there were and the feminist
protests them and um. So it's it's not something that
just happened two years ago. It's the last decade or
two has has been the people, especially the young people,
going out there and protesting. And that's That's one thing

(33:41):
that's inspiring about boris the candidate for president. The election
is next month, So the left wing candidate, Boridge, and
he came out of that movement. He was a student
protester and a leader of the student movement, and so
I think it's like it grew out of that, it
grew out of kids in high school saying this is

(34:04):
just what we do. This is normal. We go out
there and protest when when ship happens. And and the
other thing is, yeah, you know, we always say here
in Chile after the protests started, Um, it's not thirty
pace those it's thirty years, you know, thirty years of neoliberalism,
of this revolving door of center right and center left

(34:28):
and and just continuing on with the um economic oppression.
And the other thing I feel like people don't understand
is that, uh, you know, people either think Chile is
like the United States or they think it's like Peru
or something, you know, and it's really neither. In Chile,
the minimum wage is half of what the United States is,

(34:53):
which is already terrible. But um, the cost of living
here is almost the same as you guys in Portland.
I mean, not the housing probably, but like you know,
food and stuff. Yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know,
I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here.
You know, it is hard to of three times that,

(35:17):
you know. So so I think it's that's the other
thing is people just they they had no other choice,
you know, and we're just bore down by by thirty years,
you know, after twenty years of the dictatorship, thirty years
of this terrible wages and um just neoliberalism, and so

(35:40):
so I think it's it's partially that and partially just
like the culture of protests that grew out of the
student movements in in the early two thousand's, mm hmm. Yeah.
There was one thing that was interested also about that
I don't remember seeing much of at the time, was
what was too late organized labor doing during this That's

(36:01):
a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part
of the protest, at least from my point of view.
You know, I don't know, Yeah, I mean, it took
a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years off, I'm
not mistaken, So there was kind of that, Like I
guess that does make sense, sure, Yeah, Honestly, I don't

(36:25):
know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile.
But um, but yeah, it definitely is. I mean you
would see, you know, um union groups in the streets
here and there, but um, but but definitely they weren't
a leading voice in the protest. I would say. Yeah, So,
I guess that leads into the other. I guess one

(36:46):
of the other things that, from from my understanding, has
been happening all across Latin America, but but in in
Chile in particular, is the rise of the informal sector
and people just sort of not having access to sort
of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about, Okay,

(37:07):
so organized labors, like the classical unions aren't really involved
in this, and I guess I'm I'm interested in how,
if I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot
of people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was
the process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like,
especially people who just have no sort of like people

(37:29):
who are in the informal sector and people who aren't
involved in this sort of older classical organizations. Yeah, I
don't know. I guess I would just say it's like
that that culture of protests. UM. That comes from the
young people who in the last twenty years, and then
of course, UM, the older folks who um you know

(37:51):
uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, UM there
were an incredible protest at that time too. And and
so I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was even
after living here for you know, six years, UM, I
was shocked. I never thought it would come to this.

(38:12):
I never thought I would see, you know, over half
a million people in the streets of Santiago. Um. And
and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM,
I don't know, I don't I don't have the answer
is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM, what
I will say though, is I don't want to paint

(38:33):
a Rosie portrait of Chile right now because if like
we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys
go to uh Galeria Seema c I m a on
YouTube or Instagram. Um, they have a live feed of
the plaza four blocks from our house. And every Friday,

(38:56):
you know, you the protests come out and sometimes the
cops are are right away and they make a whole
perimeter with two cops and all of the you know,
tanks and everything, UM, blocking entrance to the plaza in
every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest, but then
at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down,

(39:18):
they come out there, and you know it's it's the
same thing were a young woman was was killed a
couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is
that we have this election coming up, and uh, this
guy Cast, extreme right winger Pinochetista, UM, just like they

(39:40):
call him the Chilean Bosonaro, a real piece of ship.
And uh he has um, he has really risen in
the polls in the last month or two. UM. The
right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries. UM.
It was kind of going to be the successor to Pinera,

(40:03):
the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, you know,
you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM.
But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate
and uh kind of blew it and and he went down,
and and now Cast is going up. And it's really
scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM,

(40:28):
where it will probably be him verse Boridge and UM.
And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was
approved by seventy of the country. Um, you know, it's
very possible that this election is going to come down
to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge,

(40:52):
um not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario,
you know, very yellow bellied year in Chile, that's his nickname. Um.
But it will probably Right now, it's looking like it's
going to come down to him and cast who is
like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's

(41:13):
pretty scary, geez. So it's just this there's just so
much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting
to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, um,
do you have do any of you have anything else
you want to make sure you say or talk about

(41:33):
before we kind of close out for the day. Oh no,
I will say, like three days ago, just pay my
I finally paid my whole student loan. Like like, I've
been working for more than ten years in my life,
I mean since I finished Liniar City and I've been wasted,
I mean, all my savings. I just pay this fucking

(41:53):
student loan. I guess that you guys in this in
the States are like the same like I don't know,
except for people don't pay off their student stays there forever.
And I just, I just I would like to wish
to the other, to the coming people that I mean,

(42:15):
I don't wish that future for my from I mean
for the future people in this country. I don't wish
anyone that I mean university, I mean all students should
be UM study for free. I mean it's like unconsiderable
for me. Yeah, So that was a big part of it.

(42:36):
And then also the I pay pension system here which
is totally privatized, and so you you the government just
takes your money for retirement. You get to choose between
four or five options which are private companies, and then um,

(42:57):
if you make money, then uh, the company takes you know,
their chunk of your your retirement as the payment for
managing your fund. But if you lose money, then it's
on you. So literally, you know, Stephie's mom is like,
you know, checking on her retirement. How did I do
this year? It's like, oh, you lost two thousand dollars

(43:19):
this year. That's that's your requirement, Davids. You know, so
you and you have you know, people here trying to
live on you retirements of one hundred dollars a month. Wow,
the military is receiving ten thous dollars a month, you know,
So that was a big part of it, um. But

(43:39):
I think what I always come back to here in
Chile is, like we've said, the activist renamed the plaza Plaza,
dig me Dad, And that's what it all comes down to,
is just we're not asking for you know, ponies, as
Hillary Clinton would say, We're not we're not asking for

(44:01):
the moon. We're just asking for basic dignity that everyone deserves.
And it's as simple as that. So we just have
to cross our fingers and hope that we've done enough
that that you know, at a minimum, you know, people
can live and retire with some dignity, that's all. Yeah,

(44:23):
and uh, and that enough ecological justice can be gained
that people can survive what's coming um. Which it's it's
nice to see at the very least that that's a
central topic of discussion, um, Whereas in the United States,
everyone in power seems fine with just ignoring the increasing

(44:44):
problems right now. So I don't know, you know, I
I again, I also don't want to be painting too
rosy a picture as you've, as you've repeatedly clear, there's
a lot of of struggle left still. Um, but at
least you've you've you've achieved a lot. And I I'm
just heartened by by hearing your story and and and

(45:07):
hope that more people pay attention to what's happened there
and try to take lessons from it, because I think
we all need to be we all need to be
gearing up um as as I'm sure you all will
continue to continue to do anything else before we close out. UM. No,
that's it. I mean, I completely agree. I think that

(45:28):
just like the messages that like, you know, better things
are possible, like real, real, real change can happen. You know,
like this started, uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting,
and now we're going to have a vote on a
new constitution. And it's going to be an ecological constitution

(45:49):
of blurring natural national constitution, um with respect for the
indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know,
an equal amount of men and women and everything and
and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so
easy for us who have grown up and you know,

(46:11):
under the gloom of neoliberalism to to just get really
depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me,
I feel the same way, like it's just such an
inspiration and the Chilean and and especially the Chilean youth. Um.
But but yeah, um, it's just an inspiration and uh

(46:34):
and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's
not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists,
you know, the former president was a socialist, but it
was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think,
you know, voting is great, but like that's just not
enough and so you have to, um, you know, get

(46:58):
out in the streets and try to organize and make
real change in other ways as well. All Right, yeah,
I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um.
I couldn't appreciate it more And I hope you have
a lovely rest of your day and a lovely continuing
to uh stick it to the sons of bitches conquer

(47:30):
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(48:16):
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(48:37):
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(48:59):
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(49:21):
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Welcome back to it could happen here. The show that
is only introduced competently when either someone besides me is

(49:43):
the one hosting the episode, or when I have a
guest that I feel embarrassed about being incompetent in front of.
And and this is this is the latter case, because
today I'm talking with my friend and uh AT fired colleague,
Molly Conjure. Molly, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

(50:05):
I got to do that like a professional. Welcome to
the show. That's like an NPR shit right. I know
people have been saying on the twitch stream that I
have a very soothing NPR style. Boint you would be great.
I would love to hear you uh, talking in NPR
about how it's it's rad that those those people broke
the windows on those police cars or whatever. No, I
can't be allowed in respectable spaces. I can't be allowed there.

(50:26):
They let me talk on a panel at Harvard one
time and I accidentally said fun in front of a
bunch of people. I mean, I assume Harvard students know
a funk word or two. That one. Speaking of funk words,
there's a couple of funk words who are under trial
right now for inciting mass violence that led to human

(50:47):
death and suffering. Um, you wanna you want to give
us the overview we're we're talking today about, you know,
do Unite the Right rally and Charlottestill in two thousand
seventeen that led to three deaths, one as the result
of direct violence. Had their higher who was murdered murdered
by the fascist James Field, currently in prison for forever. Um, Yeah,
forever that you know. His trial concluded a while ago. Um,

(51:12):
But there has been churning through the legal system, a
trial against Richard Spencer Jason Kessler, who was the main organizer.
Um can't well, there's other uh plaintiffs, right, Yeah, a
lot of a lot of fascists about you know, all
of the things that they did, the fact that they

(51:33):
clearly intended this to be a violent uh riot assault whatever,
like they wanted to have it be a fucking lynching essentially,
And there's a lot of evidence, including things they said
to each other about building armies to murder people. Um. Anyway, Molly,
you want to take it from here. I think I've
introduced the situation. There's a trial going on. You have

(51:55):
been listening to every day of it and covering it
on Twitch very ably. UM, and I just kind of
wanted to catch up with you. You also wrote an
article in Slate with our friend Emily Gortchynsky about, um,
what's like largely the jury selection of the trial. So
I was wondering if you could just kind of give
us an overview of what's happened so far, if your
thoughts on it. Um. Yeah, that that seems that seems good. Yeah.

(52:18):
So there's just right at the outset, this is a
civil trial, right, this is not a criminal trial. No
one's going to the No one's going to jail at
the end of this. Some of the jail you call it, Oh,
what's that? The Who's goal. We call it the Who's
goal on this show. That's the property, Okay, Um, some
of them already in jail obviously, Like you said, James
Fields is serving twenty nine life sentences to that of life,

(52:42):
it's a lot of life. So he was He was
charged in in Virginia State courty by the Commonwealth of Virginia.
He was convicted at trial of first degree murder and
several counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Um. He was so
that trial happened. He actually went to trial for that,
but then he pleaded guilty in federal courts. Who was
charged in two separate courts for the same underlying events,

(53:03):
And in federal court he pleaded guilty to twenty nine
federal hate crimes. Um. He pleaded guilty to hate crimes.
So there's no debate about whether these were hate crimes. Right,
and he pleaded guilty too. He pleaded guilty to avoid
the death penalty because a hate crime, murder is a
capital crime. So in this lawsuit, right, this this civil
lawsuit against Deep Breath, Jason Kessler, Richard Spencer, Christopher Campbell,

(53:27):
James Alex Field, Gang Got America, Andrew England Moonbase Holdings,
Robert Asmond Or Raid, Nathan Tomiko, Elliott Klein, Identity Europe,
Matthew Parrot, Matthew Himbuch, Traditionalist Worker Party, Michael Hill, Michael
Tubsley of the South, Jeff Scoop now that the National
Socialist Movement, Nationalist Front, Augustus oly Invictus, Reternal Order of
the Alt Knights, Mike Kinevich, Loyal White Nights of the
KKK East Coast, Knights of the KKK East Coast, Knights
of the True Invisible Empire. Several of those parties have

(53:49):
been dismissed from the suit. That's a lot, It's a
lot of bad guys, right, Um, several of those parties
have been dismissed from the suit. Augustus and Victus defaulted.
Um kind of itchiness. That means the fact that he defaulted,
Does that mean he was like, yes, right, he offered
no defense. Yeah, so that's what that means. Yeah, I

(54:10):
mean he's been dealing with a lot, what would. He's
had some problems, he's been jails, he abducted his wife
at gunpoint. Um. I think he's out of jail now,
but he's had some personal problems. He's had some personal problems.
So the underlying claim with the lawsuit is a section
complaint a conspiracy to deprive people of civil rights. This

(54:31):
is fundamentally at it's at his core an anti clan statute. Right,
it was designed to disrupt clan organizing. Um. And that's
kind of what it's being used for here, right. This
is so the lawsuit was brought by by nine plaintiffs
who were harmed people who got hurt at the rally.
Most of the plaintiffs were physically injured in the car attack,

(54:52):
although not all of them. Um, But these are people
who are seeking damages, right, Like for all all the
mootional weight, all the sort of social ramifications, fundamentally this
is a case about damages. So the jury is going
to say, Okay, these people were harmed. Do we believe
they were harmed by a conspiracy to commit acts of violence?
Conspiracy to commit racially motivated accidents? Right, So all of

(55:15):
those elements have to there was k guys want to
do racial violence when they assaulted people? Yeah? Was their conspiracy?
Was it motivated by racial animus? And were overt acts
of violence committed? And did those acts of violence harm
these people? In a way that entitles them to damages.
That's all the jury has to decide. Right, should be

(55:37):
an open shed case, not a lot nowhere, but it
does seem like kind of an open and shut case.
It does, right, So, I guess if there are people
out there who are not familiar with the events of
that day, a lot of alt right groups, you know,
overt Neo Nazi organizations, the Literal Clan, the Literal American

(55:57):
Nazi Party, like Neo Confederate succession. David's Duke was there.
David Duke was there. David Duke, who Elliott Klein described
as an ideological grandfather when he was asking other organizers
that he can invite him. Um, these guys came together,
they came to Charlotte'sville. They brawldened the streets, they beat people,
They hit them with shields. A Literal Clan wizard fired

(56:20):
his gun at a black band while screaming die N word. Well, now, okay,
it seems like you're reaching a bit to call that
racially motivated. Well, that's something they're trying to litigate now, right,
So you're probably familiar with the video of DeAndre Harris
being beaten nearly to death by morrows of several different

(56:41):
hate groups. Right, So one of the guys that beat
him was a tv a P member. One of them
was a League of the South member, and they worked
together to beat this young man nearly to death while
he was lying on the ground. And so that today
they were talking about like, well, can we really say
that was racially motivated? You know, can we really say
can we really say? Yeah? Um? Yeah, I think we can.

(57:01):
I think we can. Um. You know, his mother has
been on podcasts since his conviction. I'm referring to Jacob Goodwin,
the t TPP member, the man who used a t
w P riot shield provided to him by Matthew Heinbach
to beat this young man. His mother goes on Nazi
podcast still to describe how her son is a martyr
for the white cause there's no ambiguity. But where are

(57:22):
you getting racially motivated from that moment? Right? Like there's
a there's a picture of her with her arm around
her son. Her son's like seven feet tall. He's a
giant boy. To get her arm around her large adult son,
and he's wearing a T shirt with a giant picture
of George Lincoln Rockwell on it. Ah, you love the
deep cuts, so you know. And Billy Roper's Christmas party, Yeah,

(57:44):
another another Nazi. Right, So there's not a lot of
ambiguity here for the average person. But so you know,
like you were saying, Emily and I wrote about jury selection,
jury selection is um so corporate seedings are generally speaking
open to the public. Anyone can go to their local
courthouse and you can sit through a trial. You can
sit through the war deer process. You can see how
a jury gets chosen. You can go trial hopping, get

(58:07):
wasted re entertainment. As long as you say quietly, they
can't make you leave. It's like a library. It's very
discouraging because the whole point is to pic jurors who
have never encountered reality. You pick people who don't have
any opinions, right, because you want them to be able

(58:28):
to be impartial. And the best way to make sure
your jury is going to be impartial is to pick
people who don't have any opinions. And if you don't
have any opinions on whether or not it's good for
Nazis to beat people in the streets. I would say
that in and of itself as an opinion that you
already have right the ability do not have an opinion
about that. The jury selection took three days because they

(58:49):
had to go through this process of speaking to each
jury individually. Usually they'll they'll do it in batches, where
they ask questions of people in batches, um. But this
was so sensitive they didn't want to tame the jury pool,
so they did it one by one. So it took
three days, um. And they chose jurors who didn't have
opinions about the existence of racism in the United States. Okay,

(59:10):
that seems unbiased. Again, It's this thing you keep seeing
where it's like, well, we can't let people have a bias,
so it has to be people who have never heard
of white supremacy, which is like, then that's a bias
in favor of white supremacy. But of course that's the
default of the system. It's like that's the tear, right,
Like you stick white supremacy on the scale and you
tear it, but then you add awareness of white supremacy

(59:32):
and suddenly there's weight on it. You know, it's sorry,
it's very frustrating. I know, you know, it's frustrating. I mean, yeah,
I shouldn't frustrating to sit through listening to them to
ask people, you know, because they had to fill out
a questionnaire ahead of time, so so they can sort
of sift through obvious knows um. And one of the
questions was, you know, how do you feel about how
concerned are you about these different kinds of prejudice, you know,

(59:55):
prejudice against black people, prejudice against Hispanic people, prejudice agast
Jewish people, are prejudice against white people. And a lot
of people indicated that they were very concerned about anti
white racism, and a lot of jurors were asked follow
up questions about like, well, why aren't you more concerned
about anti white racism. Why did you say you don't
care about that because it's not real. Yeah, because I've

(01:00:15):
never seen it in my entire life. Um, but okay,
but we seated a jury. We did see the jury
and there were you know, there's always concerned in a
case like this that you just won't be able to
get an impartial jury. But we got it could be worse, right,
it could be worse. Um. There is a guy on
the jury who said that in high school he was

(01:00:36):
the victim of a racially motivated attack by by a
Samoan person. Um because they didn't like white people. M hmm,
I wonder what that person was doing. Slash say, black
people who believe that they have a right to exist
without being subjected to racism not impartial, can't be on
the jury. But a white guy who says he was

(01:00:57):
the victim of a hate crime because some and didn't
like Howley's God, so people talking about like I don't
like it when folks not from my island come here
and function up and make it expensive. Yeah, that's anti
white racist. Incredible, incredible. You know, it could be a worster,

(01:01:18):
it could be a worse story, but it's not ideal. Um, God,
where did we go from there? It's been It's been
a little bit of a blur. Um can't well and
Spencer don't have lawyers? Right? Well? Yeah, okay, so right
because can't well, can't can't well? It is for people
who aren't aware. Can't Well is representing himself and tell
correct me if I'm wrong here. But he started by

(01:01:39):
acknowledging the old saying that a person who represents themselves
as a fool as a lawyer, but then said, but
I'm not a fool in this case. Yeah, he said,
you may have heard this, but that's not true here.
That's not the case here. Unbelievable. And I didn't even
stay in a Holiday and Express last night. Oh god.

(01:02:00):
Really he seriously made a Holiday and Express joke while
he was Oh my god. But the follow up, the
follow up was, but I did stay in the Central
Virginia Regional Jail because that is where he staying. Yeah,
I mean because he's in prison for sexually or not
for for harassing and threatening and blackmailing another Nazi, right, yeah, yeah,

(01:02:21):
he was transported here from the federal prison and Mary
in Illinois, where he is a guest until next Christmas. Um.
So he had filed motions to exclude the fact that
he's currently incarcerated, as is his right right late, like
if you are a yeah, yeah, absolutely, in a you know,
in a criminal case or in a in a simple case,

(01:02:41):
it is it is your right to have the jury
not see you in a jumpsuit. And I respect that,
I think perfectly. Absolutely. Yeah. So he went to great
links to make sure that the jury would never see
him in cuffs, that the marshals wouldn't bring him in
in irons, that he would change before the jury arrived
at the Cornouse. All very reasonable and no one's going
to get to talk about it, but he brought it
up in his an opening statement. I'm here from prison.

(01:03:03):
I'm here from prison. By the way, I'm in prison
for the other crimes I committed, But they're not related
to these crimes. They're not related to these crimes except
to the extent that he's unable to shut the funk up.
He's only in prison because he emailed the FBI or
recording him him doing the crime that he's in prison for.
He's he's really a very cunning man. But I think

(01:03:26):
you know so, as much as those crimes aren't relevant
to this case, I think it is very relevant to
his trial strategy, right, that he has this belief that
all the things he did that were wrong they were right. Actually,
he just needs to explain to us why he did
them and then we'll understand. Right, he's in prison because
he tried to talk his way out of a thing
that he did that was wrong by telling everyone that

(01:03:47):
he did do it. Yes, I did it because I
had to. You didn't have to make an extortionate threat
to rape another man's wife in front of their children.
You didn't actually have to do that. Yeah, that's really
I mean I would I might argue, and perhaps I'm
an extremist, but there's no situation in which you would
ever have to do that. Nobody made you email the

(01:04:08):
FBI about how you did that, but you did. Actually,
I would have told you that was a bad idea.
I mean, there's there's some snarky stuff in some in
some of the affidavits about how like he called the
Keen Police Department trying to tattletale on other people so
often that they were tired of taking his calls. Unbelievable.
What an amazing man, like he's he's a piece of ship,

(01:04:29):
but he is legitimately an incredible person. I mean, if
you wrote this, no one would believe it. Right, this
is so heavy handed, it's so goofy, Like when he
was paying Elmer in guns his law he paid his
lawyer in guns, and then he ran out of guns
and had his lawyer stopped working for him. Yeah, he
doesn't have a lawyer anymore because he ran out of

(01:04:50):
guns to pawn. Although I can't anymore because now he's
a convicted I gotta say, running out of guns to
pawn for your lawyer. It's pretty cocked. He even had
to sell the bucket of loose bullets he used to
keep us a prop on his desk, I mean, really
devastating stuff. Um. So he doesn't you're you're down to

(01:05:11):
the brad, You're down to the rails when you're two
at that really the bottom of the barrel. So he's
proceeding pro say, which, unfortunately, unfortunately for everyone involved, means
he gets to talk a lot, a lot, a lot
a lot, which means he gets to cross examine his
own witnesses. Right, So the first two witnesses the plaintiffs
put on were two of their plaintiffs, right, two young

(01:05:33):
people who were injured in these events. The first witness
they put on Natalie as the v a student who
had her skull fractured in the car attack. She had
to learn how to walk again, She had to see
a neurologist to retrain her eyes to track movement. I mean,
she was very badly injured. Um. And so she testified
at length about the damage that was done to her.

(01:05:54):
Because again this is a case about damages, so the
jury needs to learn who is this person, what happened
to them? What did it call them physically, mentally, emotionally,
financially Um, Because what they're going to be asked to
do is to put a dollar amount on So they
had to meet her and hear about her injuries, um,
and hear about her motivation for being there. Um. You know,
she's a young queer Latino woman as she's the first

(01:06:15):
college student in her family, and she's a very impressive
young woman, and she was very composed on the stand
us as awful as the content was. Um. But then
every single one of the defendants gets to cross examine her.
Richard Spencer gets to cross examine her. Christopher Campell gets
to cross examine her. James Klennich, who took the case.
He's Kessler Demigo and Identity Europea's lawyer, James Klenicch. She's

(01:06:36):
an Ohio based attorney who said on the record that
he took this case with the express purpose of opposing
Jewish influence. Great great Klenich gets to cross examined her.
Matt Heimbuck's new lawyer, Josh Smith, used to be the
campaign spokesman for Paul Neilon, was endorsed by Trump at

(01:06:57):
one point in his run for Congress. And as also
just a straight up Nazi who's repeatedly threatened to murder you. Yeah. Yeah,
one time he spent all day posting pictures of a
deer that he said that he named after me. He said,
I named this dear Molly. You know, he's been all
days stalking at posting pictures of it, posting pictures of
this gun um. And then he posted a picture of
the dear stage like a lynching. And then he spelled

(01:07:17):
my name out in its entrails and posted pictures of that.
So you're just like a really normal guy Paul Neeland,
which totally completely with it. Um them. His campaign spokesperson
when he ran for Congress was the Holocaust denying um
former Jew Josh Smith. Josh Smith was born Daniel Nussbaum.

(01:07:37):
He changed his name to hide his Jewish past. Oh,
that is an old story among the Nazis. I mean,
we talked about the guy who invented uh sea monkeys,
but yeah, it's basically the same case. And you know
who else hides there? I okay, Um, this was meant

(01:07:58):
to be an ad plug. Normally Sophie would jump in
and stopped me from doing that. None of these avertise
none of these satisers are plaintiffs in the current case
that you're covering. That's a guarantee, that is, that is
an absolute promise. David Duke is not about to sell
you dick pills. No, no, no, although he could use them.

(01:08:19):
We're back, Um, all right, Molly, sorry, please continue where
where we got distracted thinking about David Duke trying to
sell you dick pills? Yeah, I have That's not good
for anybody, right, So everybody gets to cross examined. The
witness Josh Smith is himbox new lawyer. Um, Glennich used
to be a lot of these guys lawyers, and then
he sort of dropped them over time as they became uncooperative.

(01:08:39):
They are all these motions to withdraw clench, slowly dropped
clients over the last two years. Um, he dropped can't
Well as a client because Can't Well wouldn't stop posting
about hurting ROBERTA. Kaplan, who's the lead counsel for the plaintiffs. ROBERTA. Kaplan,
Femish famous Jewish lesbian lawyer. You know she was on
the US v Inser the I'm losing it, absolutely losing it.

(01:09:04):
The Supreme Court case that gave us gay marriage right. ROBERTA.
Kaplan brought us gay marriage essentially. So she you know,
famous Jewish lesbian that is a well known portion of
her identity. And kett Well kept posting um anti Semitic
remarks about her, and finally Kalinicch was like, you're making
it really hard to be your lawyer, and you don't
pay me um and Klenich dropped Heimbuch as a client

(01:09:26):
in t because Heimbuch just stopped answering his calls. Great
smart people. Yeah. So Matt Parrott, who's Matt Heimbuch's father
in law but also the husband of the woman that
he was sleeping. This complicated. There's a chart. There's a chart.
Matt Heimbuck and Matt Parrot founders of the Traditional Worker Party,

(01:09:49):
best friends for a long time. For Child's wives, big problems,
big problems for them. The Night of Wrong Wives, the
Knight of the Wrong Wives. So Matt Parrot was technically
Matt Heimbach's father in law during the time period which
Heimbach was fucking parent's wife. Very classy people. Not a

(01:10:09):
great situation. So they lost their lawyer. Um Parent very
publicly told all Traditionalist Worker Party members to destroy evidence.
So we knew that, right. That was on the record
from the beginning that Matt parent was like, hey, everyone
in t TVP, if you did any crimes, delete it right,
delete your social media, delete your pictures. Like we weren't there, right,

(01:10:31):
and that's a crime. That's a crime. That is a
crime right there. But an interesting thing that we learned
to date. But I don't think we did know before. Um.
In November, so they played a recording of a conversation
between Matt Heimbach and Christopher Cantwell and this was during
examination of Heimbuch. Heimbuch was on the stand, um, and

(01:10:54):
they're talking about like, you know, you didn't produce discovery.
You said you lost your phone, this, that and the other.
You know, after you beat your wife, she threw away
your phone. Um. So he said I couldn't turn over
my social media accounts because my wife deleted them because
we had an argument about me taking out the trash, right,
Like we had this domestic dispute about the trash and
she deleted all my accounts, so I couldn't turn them over. Um. Well,

(01:11:16):
today we found out that he told can't well. In
ten so a year after the lawsuit was filed. When
a lawsuit was filed against you, you have a legal
obligation to not do things like this. He told can't
well that after a conversation with his lawyer, on the
advice of his lawyer, he deleted those accounts. Oh, oh great,

(01:11:40):
there's just a record of him criming. Yeah, that's a crime,
and it also a crime for his lawyer to have
advised him to do that. Great. Um, again, that's there's
no direct evidence who told him to do that, but
we do have a recording of him saying a lawyer
told him to So that's not great. That's not a
good situation. Is he going to get charged with anything

(01:12:00):
for that? I am curious. You know, I'm not a lawyer.
Just for everyone listening, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't
go to law school. I didn't even finish undergrad I'm
not a lawyer. Um, but I have listened to a lawyers.
But I am I am curious. What with what frequency
can perjury charges be sought in a civil case? Right,

(01:12:21):
it's still under Oh it's like it is still perjury.
But how common is that to be pursued because they're perjuring? Yeah, perjury,
perjurer doing the thing the right always does, which is
trust that the law will never actually come after them
for their many crimes, and there's there's a good chance
they'll be right. You know, like Hinbuch said, you know

(01:12:42):
when he was asked, have you ever provided security for
Richard Spencer? And he said no? And it's okay, Well
there's like a hundred pictures of you doing that at
multiple events. Um. You know, they're claiming they don't know
each other, Like, here's all these pictures of you guys
hanging out. Um, god, where else are we? Um? Yeah,
I'm curious, you know, one thing that kind of especially

(01:13:05):
because of the written house thing. And we're actually we'll
be talking to a lawyer tomorrow night about or tomorrow
about the written house thing. Um. Every cool person shares
the same lawyer. Uh um. But yeah, because of that,
I'm kind of curious, what what is your what since
do you get of this judge? There's no good judges,

(01:13:31):
there's no good judges. But it could be yeah, I
mean I'm not saying like yeah, but how is it?
It could be? It could be a lot worse. You know,
Trump appointed a shipload of federal judges pretty recently. Judgment
is eighty five years old. He's a Clinton appointee. He's
a Clinton appointee, so it's could be worse, could be worse.
He's been on the bench, you know since I was
an elementary school UM, and he's very old, and he

(01:13:53):
doesn't he has it's a little bit hard of hearing.
But he's not stupid. Um. There's a lot of people,
I think we are really frustrated with some of the
things he's allowing to happen. He's he's really allowing these
these pro sed defendants to sort of run rough shot
over the procedure. But you know, like I said before
we started recording, it's really hard to apply. I get

(01:14:19):
like the your sense of how things are supposed to
work doesn't really apply in court. Right. There's a very rigid,
sort of outdated set of rules and procedures, and they
don't feel right. They don't feel logical or reasonable or fair.
But there is a specific way that it works, and
it is hard to watch, especially if you've never seen
it before. And because of the emotionally fraught nature of this,
it's particularly frustrating to be to be listening on this

(01:14:42):
line and saying, like, why are they allowed to do
this to this witness. Well, legally, you can cross examine
your witnesses, even if you are the person who hurt them.
It's not a good system, but it is how it works. Um.
But he's um And I also think there's there's concern
about appellate issues, there's concern about his trial, and so
they're really going out of their way not to give

(01:15:03):
anyone any excuse to say, well, this was not fair
to me. They're going to say it anyway, but they
they're really letting them have a long leash in a
way that feels very bad. But at the same time
I can't kind of understand it. Yeah, I wish they
hadn't done so much Holocaust denial, like on on the road,
that would be good. They put an expert on today,

(01:15:25):
who's um Dr Debra Lipstad, who's an expert in Holocaust denial,
to sort of talk about what the Holocaust is. I
guess in case the jury doesn't know. God, that's bleak.
That's bleak because they chose this jury based on them
never having heard of Jews. You know, it's a bunch

(01:15:46):
of like middle aged people from Green County who have
never met a Jewish person, So they had to put
on a professor to say, okay, when he says gas
the K words, we're talking about gas chambers, gas chambers
from the Holocaust. They didn't start out with gas chambers.
He started with mass shootings. But it was too messy.
I mean, she was literally recounting sort of the evolution
from the Asans group and you know, shootings in the

(01:16:07):
fields to the because of the gas chambers. Like we
we had to talk all the way through it, um
because it seems unnecessary, but again for the jury, it
might be necessary. And so when Asma Door, Robert don't
want to take anything for granted, you know, yeah, right,
and you really have to sort of lay out these connections, right,

(01:16:27):
because the idea is you have to prove a conspiracy
and you have to prove the conspiracy was racially motivated. Um.
And so when asma Door is the racist wizard name
that m. Robert Ray uses when he writes for the
Daily Stormer. When Asmador keeps saying we're going to gas
the K words, everyone knows what I mean when I
say that, right, yes, yeah, okay, you know he keeps saying,

(01:16:47):
you know, the plan is to gas the kwords. You know,
g T, K R W n UM gas the K
words race war now he keeps saying, he keeps saying,
keeps saying it. And the torch March he Pepper sprays
a bunch of people which he is currently a fugitive
of justice for UM. He's UM, he's wanted for felony
in um Almarrale County. He's missing UM. So he says

(01:17:08):
he's going to do it, then he does it, and
then afterwards he's on video saying, yeah, I guessed half
a dozen K words, so you can see from A
to B to C. And then we have this expert saying, Okay,
what he's saying is a direct reference to the Holocaust, right. Um,
It's like he's like you said, it's pretty open and shut.
It's pretty straightforward A to B two see. Um. You know,

(01:17:30):
we have these discord leaks um if you want to
browse them. They're on Unicorn Riot, and almost immediately after
the rally, Unicorn Riot had these discord leaks um the
entire server, the Charlesville two point oh server where they
planned this out, where they're in the discord saying yeah,
it's gonna be so great, We're gonna do so much violence.
We're gonna we're gonna hurt people. We're gonna bring shield,
we're gonna bring base, really explicitly talking about the plan,

(01:17:52):
making jokes about hitting people with cars. Um, now the
entire discord will be admitted. UM it it has been authenticated.
They received another copy of it via subpoena directly from discord.
It's real. It's evidence as much as can't well doesn't
like that. But more than that, UM, we have, you know,

(01:18:14):
some first person authentication. We heard deposition testimony from Elliott
Klein's ex girlfriend, UM, the woman that he was living
with in seventeen. So in the summer of seventeen, he
was living with this woman that he had just met
and it entered into a romantic relationship with Um. She
has since left the movement. She has a lot of
regret about her involvement in that time period. And you know,

(01:18:36):
there's a little people have a lot of mixed feelings
about what it means to leave the movement, what it
means to a tone, is it possible to redeem yourself
for having been a part of something like that. We
don't have to litigate that, but we do have to, Well,
we do have to recognize that her testimony is damning.
I mean, this is not this is not Elliott Klein
putting on a show in public. This is not Elliott
Klein posturing for his friends. This is Eli at home

(01:18:58):
in bed with his girlfriend talking about his fantasies of
killing all the Jews. Um, and her testimony was pretty harmful. Um,
you wouldn't think, yeah, it's not great. You know. Really
you have to wonder how the jury is taking this
right these people who have no concept or context for

(01:19:19):
this for years. Yea hours of this woman sort of
near tears talking about how her boyfriend said that he
was going to put her in a breeding camp once
they had the ethno state. Uh. Not nice, really not
nice stuff. And she also tested You know, we have
the messages from the discord where people are posting memes

(01:19:41):
and jokes about hitting protesters, but Samantha testified that at
private parties at Richard Spencer's house in the summer. Of
these private parties with the organizers of the event at
Richard Spencer's apartment, people explicitly discussed the legality of hitting
people with their cars. This is not random people in

(01:20:02):
the discord that Richards could say, oh, I don't know him,
I never met him. I never posted in discord. This
is somebody sitting on your couch Richard. Um. Yeah, And
you know, Samantha said that during that time period, um
Klein was building an army for Richard, and Kessler texted,
Spencer is something similar, right that, where we'll build an army,

(01:20:23):
my liege fucking dorcass ship. But when one fun surprise
from Samantha was that during that time period Klein was,
you know, planning to provide his militia in the form
of Adentnity Europa, right at least these street troops he
was going to provide to Spencer to build the movement,
but that when the time came, he always knew that

(01:20:44):
he would kill Richard to take control. These people are
all such fucking it's a shame that what they actually
are is deniable assets for the most day juris folks,
you know, the fucking the fucking Bannon types, because if

(01:21:04):
if all of the fascists were this dumb, I wouldn't
be so worried. And it's hard, it's hard to walk
the line between you know, really getting a kick out
of some of these moments where you're genuinely funny, right,
but you remember, like, these people are very dangerous. These
people are responsible for a death. These people, it's this
emotional whiplash right of the plaintiffs getting on and saying, yes,

(01:21:26):
my life was ruined. I still have nightmares, I still
have to go to physical therapy. And then can't Well
getting up there and asking Heimbach if he's a federal agent, right,
like I think so, We've only seen one of the
defendants on the stand so far, but I have a
strong feeling can't Well, it's going to use every opportunity
that he has his frenemies under oath to ask them
if they snitched on him. Yeah, that's that's going to

(01:21:49):
be pretty funny. It's gonna be great. You gotta laugh
sometimes life's too hard. But Can't Well is really using this.
I think you know he has nothing to lose, right,
This is a case about damage is he has no
money for them to take. He has thirty thousand dollars
in credit card debt and his car got repossessed once
he went to prison. He has nothing for them to take.
The only person he knows who did have anything is

(01:22:10):
Ian Freeman, who's currently facing federal charges for some sort
of complicated bitcoin money laundering scam through a fake church. Um.
So he doesn't even have any friends to help him.
That's an interesting case, but I don't have time for
it now. But he has, he has nothing for them
to take. He's already a felon. He can't have a
gun anymore. I think he's just using this as an opportunity,

(01:22:32):
as a platform to get his message out there and
to harm the people he thinks harmed him. So every
chance he gets, he's trying to force witnesses to ducks people. Right.
He asked one of the plaintiffs, Devin Willis, when another
young man who was who was injured at the torch
march um a plaintiff in this case, He asked him
he forced him to name the names of the non
parties who were also counter demonstrating at the statue. These

(01:22:56):
people's names have not been on the record. They you know,
judgment at him. Do that made him do that? That's
and you know, you could if you were, I don't know,
a complete baby brained idiot, you could say, well, you
know that maybe there was a legal reason that he
needed those names. There's not, and we know there's not,
because he tried to do it again today. Um. There

(01:23:17):
was a non party witness, a young woman who lived
in one of the dorm rooms right by the rotunda.
They're called the lawn rooms. It's a prestigious opportunity. Only
super high achievers get to live in those beautiful historic
law rooms. So she lived right near where the torch
mark was happening, and she heard it, and she went
outside and she looked at it. Um, she's not a
party to the suit. She has no knowledge of these
people or what happened. She just saw this thing happen.

(01:23:39):
And she testified to that, um, And he tried to
you know. She had made some passing remark that she
had heard from another student that maybe there would be
a thing on campus right that they knew about the
rally the next day, but like, I don't know, maybe
these guys will try and come here, just like be
on your toes right, not anything specific. Big. She was not.

(01:24:00):
She's not an activist. She's not. She didn't know anything, right,
And so he was grilled her, tell me who told
you that? Tell me who told you that? How did
you know that? And he said, on the record, direct quote,
I want to know who infiltrated our communications. So he's
trying to use this this moment where he has someone
under oath to extract information about who snitched. He wants

(01:24:22):
to know who infiltrated their secret communications, which is him
admitting their secret communications that weren't turned over in discovery,
which wasn't smart of him to do. But he's using
this process to get names of people who he can harass.
And we know that's what they're doing because while he
was getting these names from that other witness, you know
the names of the people at the statue. Jason Kessler,

(01:24:45):
the lead defendant, right that, the defendant whose name is
on the lawsuit, the lead organizer of the rally, is
posting all this time. He's posting through it, posting through it.
If you had a good lawyer, he would tell you
not to post through your own conspiracy trial. Um. So
wal Cantwell is extracting these names from this poor young man.
Kessler's posting them. He's posting their pictures and their legal

(01:25:06):
names and describing their involvement. These people who are not
party to this lawsuit. And there's no way to interpret
that other than as as a vehicle for harassment. Um,
so there's I think there will be there will be
collateral damage of this lawsuit, but I hope that it
does UM have the intended deterrent effect. Right, Um, sorry
to be talking at length for a while, but just insummation, insummation,

(01:25:29):
I think, UM. Inside the courtroom, this is a case
about damages. Right. The judge is very clear that like,
stop talking about broader societal impact. You can't tell the
jury about that. That's not relevant to this case. This,
legally speaking, is a case about did this thing happen
where these people hurt by it? What is the dollar
amount of their pain? Legally speaking, that's it. But outside

(01:25:50):
the courtroom, this is about deterrence, right, This is about
setting a precedent that if you do this, if you
plan a rally knowing that the people who come to
your rally will hurt people because you told them that's
the goal. Right. Even if you're not the one who
swings the stick, even if you're not the one pressing
the accelerator, you are responsible and you can be held accountable.

(01:26:10):
Not as an important message, yeah, we will like your
life will be ruined if you participate in this ship.
That even if you don't have anything for us to take.
We will put a garnishment on you that will follow
you to the fucking grave. Yep. And I think, yeah,
that's that's I would agree what I think is important here.
Um Molly, I think that's that's everything. For now. We're

(01:26:32):
still how much how much longer do we have to
go through this? The court watch a jig. Well, it's
scheduled for four weeks. It's been one and a half,
and there was there was some some anxiety and handwringing
about how maybe four weeks won't cut it. Yeah, Jesus,
so I'm regretting my decision to actively live tweets. So

(01:26:57):
like I'm transcribing in real time for eight hours a day.
It happens your fingers are using a laptop. Are you
doing it on a phone? I'm doing it on a laptop,
thank God. So, because of covid um, no one can
go into the courthouse because there's so many parties in
this case, and there's the plague, and no one can
go into the courthouse except for there's there's a press
room where fifteen people who got pre approved by a

(01:27:18):
federal court can go and sit and look at a
monitor Um, but I'm sitting at home. I'm comfy at home,
so I'm thank god. Yeah that would be and I was.
I was disappointed. You know, I kind of wanted to
see I love to see you, love the courtroom ambiance.
But I'll be honest and less work. I'm way less
worried about getting stabbed here at home. That is true.

(01:27:40):
That is true. People are less likely to get stabbed
at home, or more likely one of the two. Um,
I don't know. Tell us in the comments where you
think people are most likely to get stabbed. Uh and um, Molly,
thank you so much. Thank you both for what you're
doing and for coming on the show. Is there any
where the listeners can find slash support you? Would you

(01:28:05):
like people to mail you knives? What? Oh? Mail me knives? Yeah,
but not as a threat, like as a fun thing,
fun knives for fun. I did get a large machete
in the mail the other day, and before I saw
the little gift note, I was confused. Oh good, okay,
I'm glad you're getting a gift machetes. Yeah. Yeah, my

(01:28:25):
my friendship is a sheep farmer in North Carolina sent
me a large blade. Yep. Um no, but So if
you're interested in reading moment by moment live transcription of
people screaming Holocaust denial at a federal judge, Um, you
can check me out on Twitter. That's at Socialist Dog mom.

(01:28:46):
That's what happens when you make a little joke with
your friends, when you have five followers and um, and
then you end up using it professionally, and then you
wish national news repeatedly. I don't. Then people are posting
your mug shot making fun. You know, your bullshit mug shot.
You look great, but it's bullshit. Um, nobody looks good

(01:29:07):
after they get left in a hot van like a dog. Yeah,
but that's true. Well, Molly, that's gonna be the end
of the episode. So why don't we, Why don't we
sing a song and and and roll out? Hopefully not
the song that Heimbuch included in his Christmas letter to

(01:29:28):
James Fields in prison. Oh God, that must have been
really special. Jeez, I'll have to look that up. I
did come across in my my browsing through Fascist Telegram
the other week, an entire album dozens of songs that
we're all Nazi covers of Blink one eight two's entire discography, everything, everything,

(01:29:51):
and they called it, of course, they called it blink like.
Of course it was I don't I don't even know,
like I don't even know like how to talk about that.
It was just the thing that I found. Do you
know hampt Install, the guy who studies malicious Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
he's got a particular fascination with white power wrap. Oh god, yeah,

(01:30:15):
it's never any good, although there was a there was
a fun in one of the h Bomber Guy videos
he found finds this flat earth Nazi who has a
wrap that's amazing. Alright, partial, I'm partial to can't wells distracts, Yeah, god,
Chris camp Well, well, thank you, Molly, and uh off

(01:30:37):
we go into the wild blue yonder. I'm gonna go
to smoke some legal weed and fall asleep, face down,
hopefully not thinking about this trial. I Am not going
to smoke some legal weed because that's federally a crime. Molly,
have a good day, Molly, thank you for listening. When P. T.

(01:31:02):
Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the grounds in eighteen
sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world.
Welcome to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into
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(01:31:25):
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(01:31:46):
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at
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(01:32:08):
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(01:32:32):
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(01:34:06):
to it could happen here. The podcast that is occasionally
introduced competently as it sort of was today because our
guest today is someone who is very near and dear
uh to me and to like almost every other person
that I know and work with. Um, Moira Meltzer Cohen. Moira,

(01:34:28):
you are a lawyer, uh, focusing on civil rights and
movement kind of cases. Uh. And you are the lawyer
of yeah, like every everybody I respect in the world. Yeah. Um,
You're the person that I text whenever I need to know, Hey,
was this a crime? Um or it never is, and

(01:34:51):
it never is. I'm law abiding, very law abiding. UM,
and uh, yeah, we wanted to have you on both
because you're always a breath of sunshine and because, um,
there's some like lost stuff happening these days. We just
had our mutual friend Molly Conjure on to talk about
the Charlottesville case, which is quite a thing. Today was

(01:35:12):
the day today. Today had some had some moments, Chris
can't Well and Richard Spencer representing themselves separately, each cross
examining each other. I have so many thoughts, but mostly
my thoughts involved laughing. It's very very funny. It's it's

(01:35:33):
it's the funniest of of an incredibly tragic and infuriating situation.
Something finely funny finally happened. Um, so at least there's
that often very funny in spite of himself. Yeah, um,
I would love one day to just get you on
and duo, we can do a reading of some of
Chris can't Well's better legal filings. Um. These guys quite

(01:35:55):
the legal mind, Robert. I think I maybe didn't ever
tell you about the fact that we um did a
quorums feel, which is a performance of the story of
Esther Um, Oh my God, traditionally done at Poorham, which
is a Jewish holiday UM, and it was based on

(01:36:17):
the complaint that he filed God. Those of Twitter the
third was prominently featured in the role of Hayman. For
the those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, the
crying Nazi from the Unite the Right rally has been
incarcerated for a year or so now UM and continues

(01:36:39):
to put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM,
alleging all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did
not call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes.
We should, we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with
dandel Harper um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But

(01:37:00):
but today more we wanted to have you on because
there is another case that a lot of folks are
rightly concerned about, because it has some pretty dire implications
depending on how it goes in a number of ways.
The trial of Kyle Rittenhouse UM. For the I mean,
everyone knows Kyle written House took a gun illegally across
state lines to a protest so he might have the

(01:37:22):
chance to shoot people. Um. And then shot people. This
is my opinion about what happened. Obviously, the legal case
is unfolding. UM. There's been a lot of talk online
on on Twitter and whatnot about how obviously unfair the
judges being. This is what the talk on Twitter is about.
And it's because of a couple of things. One is
that the judge and and again I'm before I cut,

(01:37:44):
I go to you, Moira. I'm just explaining kind of
the way the discourse has been. The discourse has stated like, well,
the judge said, you can't call Kyle, you can't call
the people that he killed victims, but you can call
the people that he killed looters and arsonists. Um. And
so people are saying, look at this very clear example
of how how bad the justice system is. UM. And
I wanted to bring you on for a number of reasons,

(01:38:05):
including the fact that, like there's a lot of stuff
that seems fucked up and in fact is sucked up,
you could argue, but it's also like like pretty normal
justice system stuff and some stuff that seems fucked up
but actually isn't. This is not I'm not necessarily talking
about the Rittenhouse case here, just in general, and we
talk about the law. So I guess I wanted to
have you on to explain to us what's happening in

(01:38:27):
your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good, bad are kind
of the things that we're seeing, the decisions we're seeing
this judge make UM in this case so far, Yeah, sure,
absolutely so. The trial, UM, I think when you asked
me to comment on this, Um, the trial had not started.
The trial has now started. It has been characterized by

(01:38:51):
the defense saying the N word be here this morning,
I think was dismissed for making a cruel and nakedly
racist joke. Uh. And apparently the judge had a fit
of peak about the media's response to his evidentiary rulings,
which are what you've asked me to come discuss, um,

(01:39:14):
Which is itself actually one of the more unusual things
about this how this trial is going. Um. It's always
a little bit hard for me to appine on a
case that is not my case. UM. I feel tentative
about it. Um. This would never be my case because

(01:39:35):
I would not represent a white supremacist, and I am
not a prosecutor and would never be a prosecutor. And
I was not able to look at the briefing, because
although all of the briefing was ostensibly publicly filed, it
is not actually publicly available. UM. I had a very

(01:39:56):
interesting conversation with the Clerk of court and Kenosha told
me that if I mailed her a request, she would
fax me the briefing at a dollar twenty five a page.
And I said, thank you very much, goodbye. UM. So
I'll do my best to speak to these rulings, UM,
and the sort of larger issues as I see them. UM.

(01:40:19):
As you noted, there's been a lot of kind of
salacious headlines about the evidence here in this case, UM,
and I think those headlines are really they're less about
what's actually happening in the case, and they're more reflective
of the sort of pearl clutching UM liberal impulse to
to notice the totally self evident hypocrisy of the legal system. UH,

(01:40:41):
and then to conclude that because certain groups are shown
more leniency, the way to resolve this hypocrisy is to
make sure everyone is pleased and prosecuted and punished as
viciously as the left is, which is not actually the
goal that I have. And just to clarify when I

(01:41:02):
when I talk about liberals as I as I will
probably do a little bit. Um. I don't mean like,
I mean liberal as opposed to radical Um. People who
are more or less okay with the underlying big systems, uh,
like capitalism and white dipremacy and hetero patriarchy and like,
maybe are more concerned with the iterations of those things

(01:41:26):
that are particularly ghost but they don't actually mind the
systems themselves that or the way that those systems are
reiterated and enforced by, for example, the American criminal legal system. UM.
So you know, I think the kind of liberal read
on these rulings is not only not legally sound, um,

(01:41:50):
I think it's actually incredibly dangerous. And it's watching this
unfold and watching the liberal commentary on it, I think
is one of the things. It's one of the ways
that I can really see liberal liberals and liberalism losing credibility, um,
because because they're sort of calling out this hypocrisy and

(01:42:11):
at the same time, there's a little bit of a
double standard that they want to um, that they want
to propose an enforce UM. So okay, So I'll talk
about the rulings that you discussed. UM. The first one
is that the judge. Um, so that the prosecution is
not allowed to refer to the people at in House
killed as victims. Um. I will remind you, as I

(01:42:33):
remind all of my clients continuously, UM, that the law
is at best adjacent to common sense understandings of justice
and even frankly common sense understandings of reality. Um. Obviously
the people that Kyle Rittenkow's killed were victims. Um. But

(01:42:54):
as my beloved colleague Sandy reminded me, uh it, the
concept of victimhood, the status of victimhood is among the
things that needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt
at this trial. Yeah right, um. And so in in fact,
this is a totally straightforward ruling. It is a ruling

(01:43:17):
that I would argue for as a defense attorney and
that I expect to win where I trying in murder case.
So you know, it's one of those things like you
have to overcome this, this you have to overcome when
you're thinking about a trial, like the fact that you
know he's guilty, because the point of a trial is

(01:43:39):
that everyone like there's a process. Right, we don't just
do street justice because that's what written House did. Um.
Like we're we're you have to like one of the
It is troubling to me the extent that people are like, well,
he he should be presumed like we should be referring
to the people he shot as victims before he has

(01:43:59):
been adjudicated as guilty, because like, that's that's important, Like
the presumption of innocence matters, and it's it's it's also
something that's very unfair, Like there's a person in Portland,
Alexander Dial, who got in trouble for taking a hammer
out of a Nazi's hand during a rally um and
has been charged with several felonies and because his trial

(01:44:20):
kept getting delayed, spent two and a half years under
pre trial conditions. So the presumption of innocence is hardly equal,
but it is important. Yeah, exactly, and I think that
you know, we'll talk about this, I think in a
little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right, is that, um,
we need to be enforcing the equal application of the

(01:44:44):
presumption of innocence, not being you know, rapidly going after
the right in the same way that we are used
to uh law enforcement and the judiciary going after the left. UM.
The other ruling that the made um which you mentioned
was that he said that the defense is authorized to

(01:45:07):
characterize the people that written has killed as looters or
rioters if there's evidence presented that they were in fact
looting and were rioting. I would, if I were, you know,
in this case, which of course I'm not, I would
object to this on the grounds that it is prejudicial
in bullshit and it's sucked up in bullshit. Yeah. Yes,

(01:45:29):
that said, I am not super surprised by that ruling. UM.
I would say, it's likely within the sound discretion of
the judge and if you know, when if the prosecution disagrees,
it's a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM.
One of the things the judge said about this, actually

(01:45:50):
that I think is really important and correct, UM, is
that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion in
making of an and cherry rulings. Rulings. UM. One of
the rulings he made was that he's admitting the testimony
of an expert witness, UM, which you know, I think
a lot of people are also quite upset about. UM.

(01:46:14):
But that said, again, this is not that unusual, and
it's very difficult for him to deny that motion to
have his evidence or his testimony admitted because the prosecution
routinely uses use of force experts in similar trials. Um.
So now we're they're just on the other side of
the table. Yeah. So you know, first of all, I

(01:46:39):
get that these rulings don't make us feel good. Um,
but they aren't that strange. And as I said, the
judge has tremendous discretion in these matters. Um. I was
thinking about how to illustrate this, and it occurred to
me that I think the last time I was on
one of your podcasts, you asked me whether cocaine was illegal. Yeah, um,

(01:47:00):
what are we landing on that? By the way, so
I think the first time you asked me, I was
a total kill joy and was like, of course it's
a legal provert um. But if I had actually taken
your question more seriously, I think a better answer probably
would have been nobody knows. Um. For precisely this reason,

(01:47:21):
because the real question is not what the law says.
The real question is how, or whether, or against whom,
or to what degree and under what circumstances will that
law be enforced? And these are always open questions and arguments,
and judges have a ton of power this case is

(01:47:42):
no exception. So you know, again, not only are these
rulings pretty standard, but there I think within the judge's discretion.
Some of them I really dislike. Some of them make
total sense to me. Um, and I think that what
is happening is is not necessarily sound legal analysis, but

(01:48:03):
liberals sort of trying to argue that Writtenhouse should be
more harshly prosecuted by saying that these specific rulings are
unfair or unusual. It's a little bit like the liberals
crying out now because people are putting like, let's go
brandon on printing it on rifle receivers and saying like, well,
the Secret Service should investigate it. Well, if they do that,
then some then like thirty if they do that, and

(01:48:24):
like one company gets a fine, forty people are going
to go to prison for having red flags on their
body armor. Like that's the way it works in this country.
But the right thing, Yeah, any any anarchists for the
three D printer is gonna immediately go to jail. Yeah
that's not like that is correct. Yeah, So I guess
the thing that I want to point out here is
that what is actually unusual about this case is not

(01:48:47):
these rulings, it is that Written House is going to
trial at all. And the reason Written House is going
to trial is able to go to trial is largely
because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated it not to be repressive. UM. So,
I want to kind of zoom out and get away
from the weeds of the potentiary rulings. Um So, in

(01:49:11):
its simplest expression, when we talk about the difference between
state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying, kind of, um, jurisdiction
for dummies, Uh, overly simplified is stuff that happens inside
or only impacts a given state is typically prosecuted by
the state. And if it impacts if your offense conduct

(01:49:34):
or alleged defense conduct impacts more than one state, um,
then it is or can be prosecuted by the federal
Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse crosss state lines with
a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This

(01:49:54):
puts us immediately into a federal jurisdiction land. Um. He
did this in the context of an uprising for racial
justice that has been characterized by the fact that those
rising up on the side of racial justice have been
subject to intense repression by the federal government. D o
J has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of

(01:50:16):
opicizing their jurisdiction over heavy offenses based on totally tenuous
grounds um for people on the left or who are
perceived to be on the left. UM. D o J
has asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um,
absolutely trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left

(01:50:40):
to the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM.
They have a certain federal jurisdiction on really flimsy basis,
like that a local police building or vehicle um, belongs
to a department that has received federal funding, so property
damage against it comes a federal offense. One thing they're

(01:51:02):
doing that is unusual is the federal government is as
certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know there's
someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by MULTNOMA
and also the federal government UM for allegedly throwing some
accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is

(01:51:26):
very curious that written House who quite clearly did something
that would you know fall under federal jurisdiction is not
being federally charged, and it matters a lot for how
the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions
operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments

(01:51:52):
UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on
them to plead guilty UM, which is not typicly the
case or it doesn't happen in the same way in
a state prosecution. So UM, you have these staffed indictments
with multiple, multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds

(01:52:13):
of conduct UM, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which
can be very very easy to prove UM, and a
guilty finding on any of those counts could be like
a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then
if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on
more than one or all of those counts, you're looking

(01:52:33):
at a sentence potentially concurrent sentences that are tantamount to
dying in prison. Right. And so this creates tremendous pressure
on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to
take a guilty plea UM. So again, Kyle Writtenhouse crosses
state lines with this firearm which gets used in the

(01:52:56):
in the commission of an act of violence. And I
feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up
with a stack of counts against him within about ten
minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so
you know, if you think about him being in that position,

(01:53:18):
you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what
is what are likely outcomes if Kyle Rittenhouse went to
trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self
defense right, which which could happen if you were found
guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he

(01:53:41):
would still be looking at really really serious time. Right.
But that's not where we are, right, Um, we are
in a really weird place where like in a federal context,
we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh,
he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right

(01:54:06):
or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he
would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious, what do
you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm
certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that
if federal charges had been placed on him, you know,
when the crime Trump would have pardoned him. Um, I

(01:54:26):
don't know. Yeah, Like I've heard people argue that that, like, well,
at least with the state charges, he can't be pardoned
by President Trump. Like, I'm in no position to really
evaluate that, but I'm curious what you think about that. Hey,
honestly can't even yeah, speculate about what might have happened.
That is very interesting. I do think that if if
d o j wanted to charge him at this point,

(01:54:48):
I mean not but like there, I think wasn't opening
for that to happen after Trump left. Expect there is
a very interesting foy A request to be made to
d o j UH to see what kind of memo
was circulated about whether or not they were going to

(01:55:10):
pick this one up. They clearly declined to prosecute Um.
I the only thing that I could come up with,
to be honest, and I looked and did not really
see any meaningful discussion of this, of their decision not
to prosecute Um. The only thing that occurred to me
is that they might have been reluctant to a set

(01:55:32):
jurisdiction over a minor, but they can prosecute anyone over
the age of fifteen as an adult if they engage
in violent crimes, or if they are alleged to have
engaged in violent crimes. So that's not it wouldn't entirely
undermine their ability to do so. UM. So you know,
for whatever, you know, for whatever reason, they didn't, I

(01:55:56):
think it is worth noting. I think it is, as
I said, very curious. UM. And it's particularly curious in
light of the intense federal repression that has been faced
by people perceived to be on the left, you know. So,
like again, I want to be very clear, I don't
I'm not suggesting that I want him to be federally prosecuted. UM.

(01:56:19):
I don't. Particularly I'm not interested in arguing for more
prosecutions or for making the state the arbiter of political
righteousness or um, giving the state more enforcement power or
more resources. Um. You know. But you know, and look
at no shade to Kenosha, Wisconsin. All right, But UM,

(01:56:43):
one of the things that the UH federal prosecutors are
really have a lot of experience doing is digital forensic investigations,
and UH in this case, one of the sort of
critical questions is did he have specific intent to go

(01:57:06):
across state lines and engage in violence. And I suspect
that if you were to access all of his texts
and metadata and social media posts, that you could probably
find evidence of that specific intent. And I think that
the federal government is probably better positioned to do that

(01:57:28):
than the prosecutors uh in Kenosha, and they decided not to, right, so,
you know, and that is exactly the kind of investigation
that they mounted against Daniel Baker, who justs a the
yoga teacher in Tallahassee, who just got three and a
half years for posting vague, sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory,

(01:57:55):
kind of not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not I
wouldn't be threats, but I hesitate to to that. You know,
he posted some stuff on social media and and now
he's going to do. Yeah, my attitude on the nature
of what he posts that like, if prior to his prosecution,

(01:58:16):
you had brought that post, but to me, I said, well,
probably not a great idea to post. But also literally
every week a right winger in the Portland area posts
something significantly more actual. Right now, Chandler pappas currently being
charged with assaulting six police officers in the state capital
and Salem just announced that he's doing armed training as
a convicted felon outside of Portland's uh later this November. Um,

(01:58:41):
which if he's if he touches a firearm, he should
go away, Like based on the letter of the law,
he should go to prison for years. Like that's the
way the law is written. Nothing's going to happen to him.
He's going to get to train people with guns and
continue to carry guns, and it's it's fine for him.
Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry. I guess your your listeners

(01:59:02):
can't see that. I have my head. Um, yeah, I mean, look,
what Daniel Baker did was certainly ill advised, if it
would characterize I have clients who have been visited by
the Secret Service or have been visited by the FBI
for saying stuff that when they call me and they're like, well,

(01:59:23):
I just said this, and I'm like, yeah, I know
that you're not gonna actually do that, but maybe don't
you know it's it's not it's ill advised, but it's
protected by the very First Amendment more or less. And
you know I've said this before. I don't think the
solution to two um being surveilled on social media is

(01:59:50):
self censorship. I think it is courage, but I also
think that discretion is the better part of ball or
so yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, understand that
it's not fair, you know. Yeah, and also like what
do you gain by you know, being bumsteous on the internet.

(02:00:10):
It's one of those things where, yeah, if that guy
had had a high dollar lawyer, Um, if he if
he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe he would have
gotten away with it. Um, who knows, but like he
it's it's he certainly would have gotten No. I can
certainly say he would have gotten away with it if
he'd been a right winger, because a bunch of them
do every single day. Um. I can't make any speculation

(02:00:33):
about that particular case, but I can say that the
people who are being surveilled intensely and targeted for that
kind of repression are not the people on the right. Um.
The people on the right are able to make those
kinds of statements and not be particularly taken seriously even
when they should be. And people on the left are
presumed to be you know, Antifa super soldiers. Um. So

(02:00:57):
you know, I think the decision not to assert federal
jurisdiction in the written House case is interesting. It is
a noteworthy, really curious about what was going on there. UM,
and it has had a sort of cascade of effects,
including UM. I doubt that the forensic digital investigation was

(02:01:22):
as good as it would have been had it been
federal UH. And I doubt that the I mean, he's
facing multiple charges, but I don't think that he would
have been as likely to go to trial had he
been federally charged. UM. So again, I don't you know,
this is not an argument for more federal prosecution. But

(02:01:43):
like I think the breathless outrage that we're seeing in
you know these headlines UM, where people are correctly identifying
the hypocrisy of the criminal legal system. UM. I think
it's sort of an exercise in point missing UM. You know,
this prosecution UM, like many of the prosecutions that we see,

(02:02:05):
or the prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, that
involve members of the dominant class or people who uphold
the values of the dominant classes. UM, is sort of
proof a concept that it's possible to effectively allocate the
burden of proof to the prosecution. It's possible not to

(02:02:29):
go super hard on people and punish them for exercising
their trial, right. Um. Right, I mean it's it's possible
two treat all people accused of offenses in this way. UM,
and I would much rather. I mean, obviously, my ultimate

(02:02:51):
goal is to uh dismantle the entire system, you know.
But but in the meantime, I don't think what we
need is more vicious prosecution of the right. I think
we need consistent and commensurate prosecution or lack of prosecution.
We need to you know, Uh, I think that seeing

(02:03:14):
the way that the right is treated should be evidence
for an argument for the possibility of, um treating all
people with more leniency rather than you know, intense the
intense federal repression that we are facing and have been facing,
you know since the Palmer rates. Um. So yeah, yeah,

(02:03:41):
ah um. Well, that uh is the stuff I wanted
to ask about. Is there anything else? Um? I mean sure,
I deitely go off on liberals somewhere, please, UM. I
mean Garrison is a huge and of liberals. He's got

(02:04:01):
actually a full back tack two of Barack Obama and
Bill Clinton. But they're they're in the volleyball scene from
top Gun. Um. It's an incredible tattoo. He did it
all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um, this is
like the garretson. I hope I don't receive any stones.
I hope I don't get any awful fan art. Now, someone,

(02:04:22):
someone do it? Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head
onto onto Roger Stone's back and the photoshop Nixon's head
out and the volleyball scene from Top Gun with Bill
Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it? Do it? Someone's kind
of do it is definitely going to do it. This
is you consume me for this, and you'd be right
to do so. Um. But let's get back to and

(02:04:46):
I might represent you the trial of the Trial of
the century. Yeah, that sounds great. I think this is
a trend that we see with people who are not
necessarily focused on looking at the ways that the law
is always going to be used first and worst against

(02:05:08):
the already most vulnerable. Right, So we've seen things like, Um,
I think there's just this very well documented liberal impulse
and I think it's very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous,
um to do things to like assume that the system
somehow works um or should work, and that it just

(02:05:29):
needs to be like followed more closely, and that if
we push for things like, um, if we like, use
the law to constrain things that I would agree are
the most harmful um, excesses of bigotry, right, Um, that
the law would be a good tool for UM for

(02:05:53):
addressing violence and bigotry. The law does not. That is
not what kind of tool the law is. UM. When
we push for things like laws regulating political speech, including
so called hate speech, laws regulating what are referred to
as hate crimes, laws UM, regulating who can carry a

(02:06:18):
firearm and what they might look like. UM, you know,
pushes for limiting the places or circumstances under which you
could protest UM or demonstrate, right um, which you know,
which was done. Um. There there was a real big
UM push to UH forbid UH anti choice activists from

(02:06:43):
protesting outside of UM clinics, right, which I understand, Right,
But what actually is the upshot of doing that? When
we see this kind of push to use the law
as a tool to enforce a particular political agenda, it
is not you know, it's it's just a very ill
conceived way to approach this, because the law is never

(02:07:07):
going to protect the most vulnerable UM. Well, these structures
of power that up remain in place, and so you know,
it's just always going to be leveraged against the people
who have the least amount of power, and and so
you know, this this sort of response to the written
House stuff, to me, is just essentially a recuperation of

(02:07:28):
that impulse. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a little like
that old I think the joke has attributed to Gandhi.
I don't know if Gandhi actually said it, but like
he was asked, what do you think of Christian civilization?
And he said, I think it would be a wonderful idea.
What do you think of the fair and equal rule
of law? Sounds nice? Um, but it was neither mars Yeah,

(02:07:49):
one of the two. Um yeah, maybe both, maybe both.
I don't know that we ever saw them together. Um,
all right, so I don't know. I I it's it's
obviously it's too early to It's one of those things
where all of the complaining about the unfairness of the
trial of written House winds up getting um rammed into

(02:08:10):
a legal wall. Metaphorically, Uh may seem silly in content
or in in retrospect, or he may this may be
the thing that ignites a new wave of vigilante showing
up at protests with guns, but it seems to be untouchable.
Like really, the big fears that they don't set a
precedent that will allow other people to use quote unquote

(02:08:31):
self defense claims and effort just to kill black activists,
to kill activists on the left, to kill people wearing
you know, black hoodies and bandanas r. Because that's the
that's the big fear out of this situation. Because my
my expectation is that if written House gets off um
or even just gets very minor, like if it's if
he's if he's out of jail quickly within about six months,

(02:08:52):
he's going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah, that's
the way the right wing works. I would gently ask
you to think about what happened as if he doesn't
because he's convicted, we are going to see a deepening
of the oppression that is faced by everyone on the
left as well. We lose either way. Yeah, is on

(02:09:17):
the table. There's no winning, I guess, I think, I
mean part of it, I guess depends on what he's
convicted for. Um, because some of the stuff has I
would it seems to me some of the things he's
charged with. If convicted, there's more potential negative implications across
the political aisle than than with others. Um Like if

(02:09:41):
if it's ruled murder, I don't know, that feels less worried.
I mean, I have some concerns about the crossing state
line stuff. I don't know. I mean, none of it's
none of it's good. I guess where I am is.
I remember vividly how much the situation on the ground
chain after Kenosha, just in in in Portland even I mean,

(02:10:02):
Garrison can can back me up with that. They were
there for that too, Like it was a It was
a significant shift in the feeling of deadliness, you know,
whenever there was a right wing left wing confrontation. Um
and someone someone died a few days later, someone died
a few days later in in a fucking gunfight. Um
And I I don't know. I don't know, Moira, Uh,

(02:10:27):
I don't know. I don't I don't want Rittenhouse to
get off Scott free for shooting three people. You're absolutely right,
there's no there's no winning with the legal system. The
only way to win is not to play. The only
way to win is not to play, So form your
own breakaway civilization Ki and Gandhi Yeah uh and and

(02:10:50):
Ron Hubbard take to the Sea. Yes, yeah, always Look,
I don't I don't think. Um, I'm not looking for
him to prevail on the self defense and not like,
none of this is going to make me feel good.
But I think that whether or not he is punished,

(02:11:12):
whether or not he is convicted, there will be negative recussions,
and all of those negative consequences will redound to the
detriment of the people who are already facing the most
intense federal repression. Yeah that is I mean, in fairness, like,
this is the case of a child who killed two

(02:11:34):
people and is now we are determining whether or not
this child will spend the rest of their life in
a cell. None of this should make anyone feel good
no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly bleak story. Yeah. Yeah,
it's because this kid is never going to have a
chance to grow up and be like, oh I was

(02:11:55):
being like a horrible I don't know the level be
able to adjust to anything else rather than being this
person that like culturally has been created right there. They
are like a cultural thing, They're an item, they're not
a person anymore, and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah.
I was a piece of ship when I was seventeen,

(02:12:16):
and if I had had access to an a R
fifteen and a chance to feel like a hero, I
might have done something horrific too, And instead you were
just doing sloppy steaks and it's fine and now it's fine. Um,
have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? I'm sorry,
have you watched? I think you should leave? Moira? No?

(02:12:36):
Oh it's good, it's good. Alright, I'll check it out. Um, um,
I'll take a look. Yeah, I don't know. Um, well,
thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. Um, it's good.
I don't know. Like, were you we've talked a bit

(02:12:57):
about anarchism. How many? How much? How much of like
your belief about the way the world ought to be
and is came as a result of getting into the
guts of the legal system. Do you mean did I
become more devoted to anarchism and I went to law school. Um?

(02:13:20):
I didn't become less devoted to it. But I remember
when I was going to law school, people kept saying, oh,
you're going to become really conservative and I was like,
I don't think that's true. That seems seems fake. Uh.
And in fact, I remember um being in my criminal
procedure class and just thinking, how in the world can

(02:13:43):
anyone at any law school read Miranda, which is a
case where someone is, you know, just horrifically abused by
police in order to extract a state in it. How
could anybody read this case and not come out of

(02:14:05):
law school with a deep contempt for law enforcement. You know,
I know that it happens. I don't know how always uplifting, Yeah,
I mean it. It is. It's important to know, you know.
I when I was when I was younger and poor, uh,

(02:14:25):
and dealing with things like taxes, I would often go
like years without paying them, and I would like ignore
debts and bills until like like my student loans, until
it became like a serious problem because I didn't want
to look at it. I didn't even want to like
look at the scale of the issue and grapple with it.
I just wanted to run away from it. And when
I actually like sat down and figured out my situation

(02:14:47):
and like really came to understand like what what I
needed to do in order to deal with those problems
like it was stressful and it sucked, and it was
fucking days of work, but getting understanding the scope of
the problem I'd gotten myself into was a necessary step
to like fixing the situation. And I think the same
is true with like this kind of ship. It's not fun,

(02:15:11):
nobody who is. I think a reasonable person like wants
to dig into the US justice system and get into
the guts of it because it's bleak as hell. But
you need to because it's it's you can't escape it
unless you flee the country and live in a place
with no extradition treaties, UM or international waters. I feel

(02:15:34):
like you're talking about a lot of the people you've profiled. Yeah,
I mean Ecuador does sound nice. I'm sure it's lovely
this time of year. Um. Yeah, I think you're right.
You need to be able to have a sort of
clear eyed assessment so that we can actively identify and

(02:15:58):
effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think the problems are
so um all encompassing that I don't know that there's
I would venture to say that there is not a
real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah, I

(02:16:22):
agree with you. But in the meantime, I mean, I
think there are there are things that we can do
to to advocate for our clients, or as an individual,
you can do to protect yourself. And that's why it
is important to have some sort of working understanding, um,
because you can keep yourself and the people around you

(02:16:44):
at least somewhat safer if you do understand the beast um.
Even though your goal is to is to destroy it. Uh,
And that's I think the only reasonable goal when you
really understand it, it's still behooves you to to understand it.
I mean, it's the same with like it, the same
with what what Garrison and I do with the fucking
Nazi spending all this time and weird telegram channels like

(02:17:05):
reading what they're trying to understand them, because you do
need to understand them to effectively combat them. Well, it's
not for the faint of heart. No, no, yeah, neither
is what you do. UM. The messages is that we're
all well adjusted and we're all great for that boat.

(02:17:25):
Nobody secondary trauma. There's no secondary trauma in international waters Moire.
I have that that that my my old friend l R.
H told me that just you and the open sea
and a bunch of twenty year old searching for gold
that I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah,

(02:17:48):
he is both fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. UM just just
like just like our legal system system. And that wraps
up this episode that brings us around. UM, anything you
want to plug any any place, maybe our listeners could
could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves against

(02:18:11):
a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that people
look into whatever bail funds are local to them. There's
one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC.
That's um doing incredible work right now to get people
off Rikers Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of

(02:18:31):
just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the
conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad
as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM.
So I would always, always UM direct people to give
money to local bail funds. I also want to plug

(02:18:52):
the National Lawyers Guild UH Anti Federal Repression or Federal
Defense hotline, which is too one to six seven nine
to eight one one two one to six seven nine
to eight one one if you call that number, or
you can call that number if you are having unwanted
contact with federal agents, and you can be advised by

(02:19:16):
an attorney who is me about your rights and responsibilities
with respect to federal agents, and I will try to
connect you with appropriate resources in your area. UM. This
is not the hotline to call if you've been injured
by a police officer. UM. This is the hotline to
call if you have been visited by the FBI. UM,

(02:19:38):
don't talk to cops. If you are contacted by law enforcement,
say I am represented by counsel. Please leave your name
and number and my lawyer will call you. UH. And
remember that you cannot talk your way out of an arrest,
but you can talk your way into a conviction. All
great points, all great things to be aware of. UM.

(02:19:58):
Speaking of great things to be aware of. Be aware
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(02:20:20):
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(02:20:40):
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(02:21:02):
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Find a forest near you and start exploring and discover
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to it could happen Here a podcast about the continual
state of bad things happening and how sometimes you can

(02:22:07):
make them less bad or not happen. And today we're
gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by the way, and today we're
gonna be talking about Bosnia, a place where things went
about as bad as they possibly can, and about how
they're heading in very scary directions now. And with us

(02:22:29):
to talk about this is Arnessa Kustra. Arnessa is a
genocide survivor and a academic expert on genocides in general. Arnessa,
how how are you doing? You know, I'm doing okay.
I think all things considered, you know, being sort of
bombarded on a daily basis with you know, possible threats,

(02:22:55):
um and talks about you know, a new conflict war
brewing in the Balkan. This is the thing. Not an
easy thing to convent, definitely not. Yeah, but other than that,
I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. I'm glad, I'm glad.
I'm glad you could be here with me today. Because

(02:23:15):
the Balkans extremely complicated place, which I guess his story
of both places. But yeah, and so I guess that
that's that's where I wanted to go with my first question,
because reading about what's happening now, my first instinct was
go back to the day and accords. But I'm actually
not sure that that's that that's that's that's even the

(02:23:36):
best place to start. And so I wanted I wanted to,
I guess ask you if so, okay, so if if,
if you're coming into looking at the Balkans for the
first time and you're trying to understand what's going on, now,
where do you think it is the best place to
start on it? Because I think you know the best. Yeah,

(02:23:57):
we're talking about so much history, honestly, but the thing is,
let's you know, let's start with the death of Tito
that's always a good place, I think, because that's really
when things started to kind of shift in the Balkans
and the former you know socialist udo Slavia was really

(02:24:20):
once Tito died and his place became you know empty
as this sort of unifying factor of all the various
ethnicities and nationalities within Yugoslavia. You know, once he was gone,
that sort of left this vacuum that needed to be filled.
And unfortunately, instead of being filled by another socialist you know,

(02:24:45):
pro equality, pro unity leader, it was filled with a
nationalist um, which is kind of where we still are unfortunately. Um.
You know, it started obviously with with little things I think,
with little sort of conversations and and little subtle I

(02:25:09):
guess you know, Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind
of like grew and spiraled from there, and obviously, you know,
that sort of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving
his infamous speech, which kind of really gave that full

(02:25:29):
fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, this is a ultra nationalists,
you know, ethno nationalist president that we now have, UM,
who's threatening war across the other ethnicities. What do we
do next? Um? And at that point you know, that's
when you sort of see the other countries start to secede,

(02:25:52):
you know, Slovania and Croatia they're attacked by Serbia and
then obviously eventually it goes down to Bosnia. Um and yeah,
I mean it starts with the ethno nationalism as it
always does. I think, um, you know, I don't think
we're anything special in terms of having conflict with our neighbors.

(02:26:16):
Look at France and England or in our or America
and Mexico or anyone. Really it's just, you know, I
think people make it sound as if we're special or
we have these ancient hatreds, but you know that's not
really true. It all comes down to the freaking politics
and the leaders. And unfortunately, you know, Miloshevitch was removed,

(02:26:38):
but is policy is um beliefs continue to kind of
stick around, you know, I think, uh, you know, people
think of people like Miloshevich and adavankata Ji, who were
you know, genocidal war criminals, as a thing of the past.

(02:27:02):
But really you look at you know, the Serbian president
Um or the Repubska president Middle Thought, and there are
really just the continuation of katach and relationship wch Um.
So nothing you know, has fundamentally changed since Tito died,

(02:27:23):
except you know, we got some new agreements, we got
some new territories, some new ethnic lients drawn up, and
not a new pretty buildings too. We have those as well,
but we don't really have that coexistence um, at least
that on paper, not in politics certainly. I want to

(02:27:45):
go back for a second too, I guess the moment
of Chito dying because it's always been a sort of
interesting thing looking at it for me because I remember,
I mean, you know, so from from setting Chinese history
right there, there's a period where in the seventies were okay,
like everyone's looking for reform in China, and you know

(02:28:05):
what what you would consider like the sort of the
I guess you could call them the I don't know,
left and right is complicated in China, but you know,
like there there are a lot of sort of what
you would call like the sort of left socialist like
democratic reformers. Who are you know, I mean people people
like they're looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh,
we can have like workers participation and we can have

(02:28:27):
we can have these democratic enterprises and then that just implodes,
and and yeah, I wonder if we could talk a
little bit about more about that, because my my very
limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis
from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's

(02:28:48):
just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean,
that's a really good way of like putting it. Um,
you know, like life in Yugoslavia, I don't think it
was like ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it
was a perfect system. I think you know, me being
a Bosnian who was born to Vary, I think pro
Yugoslav parents. Um. I just like many of my you know,

(02:29:12):
fellow Yugoslavs or x Yugoslavs habitancyemed to look at Yugoslavia
with like rose colored lenses. You know. We think about
the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, the worker
owned you know, socialist models, the fact that our parents, um,

(02:29:33):
you know, we're able to provide for their families and
take vacations and travel and um, you know, get together
and all these sort of wonderful things. But in the background,
really in the sort of depths of the you know,
politics and the economic issues were kind of always there. UM.

(02:29:55):
You know, the one thing that Tito did was obviously
he relied unlike I think other socialist leaders of his
time is you know, he basically worked with anyone, you know,
the non aligned movement, but also with the West, with Europe,
you know. So uh, he was a very picky choosy

(02:30:16):
I think was you know, the betterment of the country
by kind of any means necessary. UM. But I think,
you know, he made mistakes, just like um other leaders do.
And I think obviously we had, you know, two issues.

(02:30:38):
One he was sick, he was dying, um. And and
too there was an economic crisis happening. Um. And three
then we had like the economic reforms, which really shifted
the entire I mean they just they very much shifted
the the system that the Yugoslav people were very much

(02:31:00):
used to. UM. It became more and more prior, you know,
privatized after his death. UM. And And you know, Miloroshevich
he was he was a banker, he was a businessman.
He was he was who he was. UM. And I
don't think that he ever really pretended to be a socialist,

(02:31:21):
which is why I get so upset when American leftists
call him a socialist or call him an anti imperialist,
because those aren't even words that you know, he himself
would have really used to describe himself. I think, but
but I think, you know, there was just it was

(02:31:43):
that sort of thing where there's an economic crisis brewing,
they have no ways to really fix it. People are broke,
people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the worker you know
owned sort of model is being shifted, it to a
more privatized model, and people are just not happy. What's

(02:32:05):
a good way to distract from that? You know, It's
just we see it happen everywhere. It's not a new
it's not like a new, you know tactic. It's a
tactic that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So,
Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could

(02:32:27):
blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they
had the Kastovo you know, Albanians and the Bossians and
that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted.
And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so
much more complicated. Um but you know, there there are

(02:32:51):
books out there and and that obviously go into a
great you know level of detail, um into the actual
sort of break up, so I can give some recommendations later.
But um, yeah. But I think in in that sort
of very simplistic kind of sense is there was an
economic crisis happening. A good way to sort of distract

(02:33:14):
that was the use of ethno nationalism, and it just
kind of spiraled from there. I think, you know what
Miloshevitch and what people like Miloshevitch always want, it's more
power for themselves. And so his whole thing wasn't really
ever about keeping Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping

(02:33:36):
this vision of a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is,
you know, if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch,
if we just had somebody who was you know, the second,
you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares.
I think people would have been fine. I think, you know,

(02:33:57):
I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead
we had Miloshevich who was like way more concerned about
consolidating power, exerting that control. When he realized that he
could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals, of
course he was going to use that of course, like
who wouldn't you know, we see it today with like
what Trump did. He utilized, you know, Muslims and immigrants

(02:34:20):
and refugees and black people, all his scapegoats to distract
from all the other things that are wrong with him,
his leadership and the overall country. And Miloshevich did the same.
He just did what any other politician did. And you know,
that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking about Bosnia, Croatia,
Slovenia and all these countries that started to succeed, I

(02:34:42):
think if they had felt comfortable with, you know, staying
in a country that is multi ethnic, at least in
the case of Bosnian's. I'm not going to speak for
the Slovanians or Croatians because they have their own, i
think complicated identity. But with Bosnian, are are saying collectively,

(02:35:04):
I think while we're not a monologue, not monolith, but
collectively was always where are united? We are multi ethnic,
multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such a big part
of like our entire history and identity. And so if
the choices being you know, under served control being secondary citizens,

(02:35:31):
not having that equality, not having that multi ethnicity, of
course we're not going to take that choice. Of course,
people are gonna want to you know, when when you
have like that, you know, that boot on your neck
of saying like we're going to control you, we're gonna
take your land and we're gonna basically rule over you.
Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, unlike

(02:35:54):
a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, Bosnia
really was the most multi ethnic. It had one of
the highest rates of you know, mixed ethnic marriages and
multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true even today.
So especially in places like sorry Evo, Mostadeluka, you know,

(02:36:16):
the bigger cities, it has this very proud history of
you know, coexistence and multiethnic co existence. So I think
what happened for so many people was just a huge
amount of shock. Um, my own family, so many people
in my own family just did not think it could happen. Now.

(02:36:39):
They grew up with this idea of a united you know,
multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood and unity. These are our neighbors,
our friends, our teachers, are lovers, you know whatever. There
they work with us, they live next to us. Of first,

(02:36:59):
they're not gonna you know, turn against us. And I
think even while all the politicians were fearmong rowing, while
you know, Miloshevitch and Karta Duge were sort of leading
their campaigns of you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um,
you know, in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV,

(02:37:21):
any chance that any speech that they gave, they talked
about how the Muslims were coming, we were going to
make their daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over.
We're going to kill them, you know before that's why
they have to kill us, because they don't call us
we're going to kill them. It was whole, you know,
really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has

(02:37:42):
now been replicated in so many other Can Can we
talk about that specifically for yes? Second, because I think
there's something interesting in the way that like the way
that you get people to do with genocide always seems
to be, like you, it's extremely hard to get someone
to like just murder their neighbor because they don't like them.

(02:38:05):
You have to do this like they're about to exterminate us,
and that's why we have to like strike first. And
that Yeah, that that that aspect of it I think
is is something that I see a lot when when
I do this, and you know you you have you
have done more geneside studies. I want to hear. Yeah.
I mean, here's the thing. UM, it's so funny. I

(02:38:26):
gave like an interview UM on this specific topic I
don't know, like two years ago, and I remember turning
to the guy who's interviewing me because he was just
like his look on his face was I just don't understand,
Like I don't. I can't wrap my mind about how
people could do that to their friends, neighbors, students, you know,

(02:38:47):
people they were sworn to like protect and and people
they lived with their entire lives. How could they do that? Well,
you know, I turned to him and I said, yeah,
I mean, if I told you right now go kill him,
you know you probably wouldn't. But if I came to
you day in and day out, and I slowly started
to kind of whisper in your ear, and I started

(02:39:10):
to tell you, you know, he's been really really I
don't know, he's been saying a lot of stuff about you.
He's been quite negative or I don't know, you know,
do you think he's kind of acting weird? I feel
like he might be planning something. You may be planning
to take over your house. You may be planning to,
I don't know, probably attack your sister. I think he's
gonna kill your sister. I think you might make your

(02:39:32):
sister wear her job. So it's these very like slow,
subtle things. And that's the thing that people don't understand.
You know. Violence never interrupts, like, never erupts out of nowhere,
you know it. It's always planned. It bruised, and it bruise,
and it bruised, and then it explodes. You know. Then

(02:39:52):
there's the thing. But it comes slowly. And that's how
it wasn't he was slofty. It wasn't this sudden. You know. Yes,
we're brothers and sisters. Forever, Go Tito, go Yugoslavia too.
You know, Oh, I hate you because you're a Muslim,
and I hate you because your servant. I hate you
because you're a proact. No, that was not the case.
The case was that this was a very slow campaign

(02:40:15):
of propaganda that started in the eighties, almost immediately after
Tito's That's let's say it started very slow, started with
the you know, with the sort of I think disenfranchisement
of the coast of all Albanians um and kind of
the targeting of them um. And again, yes, there was

(02:40:36):
this economic component on of it, but the way they
wanted to kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well,
you're you're hungry because the coast of Albanians are not,
you know, and they're taking your jobs again some more, uh,
you know tactics that we see. Yeah, so it's not
it's not that much different, but yeah, you know, it

(02:40:58):
starts slow and and the Militievitch and the cottage and
the Maladich kind of campaigning was God, it was brutal.
I mean, like I always say, it was kind of
brilliantly executed in that it really got two people so
much that then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neigbor.
It was it was subtle in the beginning. It was

(02:41:21):
that sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can
we trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you
trust the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking
about aliyaz Abiga, which is book that he wrote when
he was like I don't know eighteen or or whatever, like,
and you know, talking about World War two. This was
another thing like, like everybody knows that there was a

(02:41:44):
period in World War Two where you know, a lot
of service were killed by the usha UH and by
the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a real
fear for you know, for a certain group of people
who went through that. So there is a lot of
that as well. You know, that's going to happen again,
That's going to happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan.

(02:42:07):
There was never even talks of you know, committing violence
or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from
Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set
in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I
think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while

(02:42:31):
not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership
was in many ways making them do. And and that's
kind of where you know, what happens in these situations.
You know, they kind of push you and push you
and push you until they're able to get you know,
some sort of rise out of you, or response out

(02:42:51):
of you, or or get you on that sort of
offensive where you have to defend yourself. You have to
defend your identity. You have to defend who you are,
you have to it justify it also in many ways.
So yeah, the you know, the sort of propaganda campaign. God,
there was you know obviously the funny things were like

(02:43:12):
things like they're going to make you wear the h job,
but it was also very insiduous because they would target
like these you know villages where they were like Bosnians
and Serbs, you know, living together, and they're quite small,
but they knew that like in the village obviously usually

(02:43:33):
have a gun or you know shotgun because of the
animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were
like target them specifically with like the you know, the
radio and instead of like the big cities, like they
worked up to the big cities, but they really started
in like specific sort of areas like in eastern Bosnia,

(02:43:53):
especially because there was like a lot of um i
think majority Muslim like villages in that area up that
would also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I
mean there was that there was you know then sort
of taking over all the radio stations and um kind
of going full force. They think like in the sort

(02:44:15):
of early days of the war, like we're talking April May.
They you know, they would get people like pretending that
they were Bosnians, they were actually Serbs, and they would
like talk about how they went to you know, kill
all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also

(02:44:37):
when they were like having people in concentration camps where
they like started kind of putting them in those concentration camps. Initially,
they they would make the victims into concentration camps. The
Muslims basically you know, say that, oh, they're just there
as a refugee and the Serbian army is like protecting um,

(02:45:00):
and they're making me feel really welcome and stuff like that.
So it was right at the beginning between especially eighty
nine too, like the propaganda was so visible and it
really escalated, and it was like suddenly everywhere and you
would hear Carategic and little Worshovitch talk about you know,

(02:45:25):
the Muslims and the things that we wanted and you know,
the things that the goals that we had, which after all,
we're not you know, nobody was saying it. There wasn't
like a single person that was saying these things that
they were attributing to us. But that didn't matter what
they were just doing was instilling enough fear and enough
doubt in the population to eventually get them to take

(02:45:48):
up arms when the time comes. And unfortunately, that's precisely
what happened. When the time came. You know, a lot
of people did take up arms, whether or not they
wanted to. They had enough of that doubt and fear
so in their minds over the course of you know,
several years that they ended up feeling like I have

(02:46:08):
to protect myself. And I'm not saying that's the case
for every certain person. I think some a lot of
you know, especially in higher leadership pomissions, a lot of
them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. And I
don't think it mattered why or how, because you're always
going to get those kind of people. But I think

(02:46:30):
when we're talking about how how that shift happened so last,
we have to obviously discuss the propaganda. A huge amount
of propaganda that I went into, uh, you know, implementing
it such a tangent that that was really great. Yeah,

(02:46:52):
I think, you know, yeah, I mean, I guess, like,
I think it's incredibly important for everyone to understand the
propaganda it works. Like if you just say something over
and over and over again, like it does you know
of event eventually it pays off, and you know the
quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And I guess, yeah,

(02:47:15):
I'm not sure how far into detail you want to
get into this here, but but I think one thing
I want to kind of focus on because I think
from from reading what you've been saying about this, that
this wound up being a big deal with like why
things are sort of still fucked now, which is that

(02:47:36):
like the international response to this. Like I mean, one
of the things I'm always just like haunted by is
there's this quote by mid Irand who's the Prome Mr
of France. He's like this, sup wants to be the socialist.
He's like the guy that like they finally put in
power after like all of the stuff in the sixties,
and he has this lyon about like I'm sorry, I wish,
I wish I told up the exact quote, but it's

(02:47:56):
it's basically like, I I know the quote. Yeah, do
you want to say exactly I know the quote? Um,
it's uh, it's what was it a peaceful but necessary
reconstruction of a Christian europe Um And Bosnia does not belong.

(02:48:20):
So I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me
for such a long time because he said that at
a time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um,
they were being dragged the way to concentrate to shim camps.
The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about stuburdance.

(02:48:41):
We're talking about sorry about uh um even stub at
ninety two. You know, this is all um, the things
that happened in places like witch quoins running and all
these like places that you that I think the vast
majority of people don't really know about any here about,
like in a lot of my family is from there.

(02:49:04):
Within a span of three months, that entire town, the
entire town which was once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um,
was ethnically cleansed, and that was done through forced deportations,
concentration camps, mass rapes and rape camps of women and

(02:49:25):
obviously a lot of murders. You know. So we're talking
about one small town that took you know, three three months,
and my family when it comes to that town, on
both my mother's and my father's side, interestingly enough, has
like such a long history. My parents fell in love
there when they were like kids, so you know, they

(02:49:45):
you know, my grandmother's house was there, my grandfather's house
was there, um on like both sides and they, you know,
so is this beautiful little town where you know, Bosnians
and Bosniaks and Serbs and Coad lived in Jews Roma
and you know, my parents talk about the beauty of
it and this wonderful sort of experience that they had

(02:50:07):
when they lived there. My mom is from saraebo Um
and I saw my i as well obviously, but the
Kad was like the place that she would go kind
of like for the weekend, just because of the family
that we had there. UM so very special. I think
in her heart my grandpa's heart as well, and you know,
within it's just like so hard to like fathom that

(02:50:32):
within just a few months that talent was completely ethnically
climes and that the international community knew this and did nothing.
You know, there is and I believe it's in the
Clinton tapes as well, but there's this thing about how
they had provided aerial footage of the massacres that were
being that were being enacted in places like Pittgal and

(02:50:55):
Swannique where oh my god, depare military served forces did
some horri horrifying acts of like violence and torture against
the civilians. UM. And they had you know, showed it
to the Clintons, and they showed it to the French
and the English, and they did nothing. You know, they

(02:51:18):
knew that a genocide was unfolding, UM. And the Dayton
Peace Agreement wasn't signed until so the international UM community
I think as just as much of a responsibility in

(02:51:38):
the you know, the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does,
because they sat there and they watched when they had
all the power to stop it. They always had the
power to stop it. They had the power to stop
it before it even before even one person got killed, UM.
And and two they it's not even that they just watched,

(02:52:00):
it's that they purposely left the Muslims defenseless because Serbia
had all the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the
you know, everything, all the tools that they needed to
commit Jenna's side, they already had it, and all the
arsenal everything, UM. And you the was army was like

(02:52:22):
the most powerful in the region at the time. And
I think the fourth third third or fourth most powerful
in like the Europe Turkey areas, so we you know,
quite a powerful army. And there was Bosnia which had
no weapons, no military um. You know, you see these

(02:52:45):
pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, tanks and
mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these you know,
youths basically and like converse and jeans and like an
army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had. You know,
we had the homemade weapons, we had, um, you know,

(02:53:09):
how to make your own bomb books kind of thing,
and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything that we could. Um.
They specifically did not lift the arms embargo, knowing that
they were leaving us defenseless. Like they just knew there

(02:53:29):
was no way. There's no doubt on everything that we
have read about the international community response, everything that Clinton
mackand John mayor Major Major um not mayor Major have
said you know about it during that period shows us
that they absolutely knew that we were defenseless, you know.

(02:53:51):
And this wasn't you know a lot of people say
I didn't know about the Boss Angela side, but it
was discussed. You know. I looked at the archived footage. Um,
it was talked about it on television, it was brought
up in parliament and incentive that was people at the
time who are like, why are we leaving the Bosnians

(02:54:11):
defense lives? Why are we you know, not helping them,
Why are we allowing them to be allowed into slaughter?
This is genocide blah blah blah. So even as early
as there was still people who knew about this stuff,
we're telling the leaders but nothing. Yeah, I think I
think like that part also, like it's it's not just
that like they did nothing like they like they did

(02:54:34):
worse than doing nothing, like Mitterran's actively cheering it on,
Like you know, the arms embargo is just like the
arms embargo if you're applying in arms embargo on a
conflict where one people one side has tanks and the
other side has like molotovs, like you are actively supporting
one of the sides. And I think that like that

(02:54:54):
just like is completely lost in how like almost everyone
seems to talk about the now because there's like you know,
because because when you sort of get like interventions later,
like people are like, oh, look, the wester was like
planning to intervene here, the whole time, and it's like no,
like they were literally cheering, was cheering. Like it's like,

(02:55:17):
it's so frustrating because you know, we you take what
we know about. And here's the thing. I know that
Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but Islamophobia has existed for
a very long time. And I think talked to the
black Muslims of America, they will tell you more, you know,

(02:55:37):
better than than I could ever tell you about the
history of Islamophobia in the United States. So it's Alamophobia
was always an aspect of life. And in Europe, Islamophobia
just like anti Semitism. I mean, it is like the
staple of European cultural cuisine. So to say yeah, it's
like it's like yeah, it's like there's a there's a

(02:55:59):
there's an they have they have like they have like
the like the the tri force of Europeans, of European
civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia and hating the Roma. Just
like however the force. And so I think the sort
of thing about the explicitness of European leadership, especially at

(02:56:20):
the time in in you know, effectively ensuring that we
were killed off because in Muslim country in Europe could
not exist. And that's the thing that they said, literally
set a Muslim country in Europe cannot exist. Like the

(02:56:41):
fact that that was so open and brazen like kind
of takes me back, but it really like tells you
how much Islamophobia informed. I think the international community responds
on this, and it's so interesting to me now. I
think I've seen it over the past, I would say,
especially five years, the sort of leftist genocide and sort

(02:57:03):
of leftist anti imperialist kind of defense of Miloshevich and
oh they were the you know, the Serbs were the
actual victims blah blah blah and NATO blah blah blah,
Western intervention. And I'm just like, oh, my god, read
a book, read an article from that, read their actual quotes.
There's no way that you can actually convince me that Europe,

(02:57:24):
fortress Europe, and the United States of America would do
anything that would benefit, you know, the Muslims. Was this
what was one of the things I think was it's
really interesting to me about the way that the sort
of like left shandi sides nihilism works, like it always
seems to be roogins lomophobia, like and I remember started
seeing this with Bosnia to where they're like, oh, yeah, well,

(02:57:45):
it's it's because it's because what's okay, they have two things.
One it's like, well, the Bossians were Nazis been the
second one was that, oh well the boss the Bossians
were like altra hottists. And it's like, it's the exact
same thing you see with China. And it's like, oh,
it's because all the weakers are like lafi Jo hottest
iss c I A. And it's like no, yeah, I

(02:58:05):
mean it's it's it's honestly laughable at this point. It
really is. And it also just you know, obviously I'm
a leftist. You know, I'm gonna cheer the left on
to an extent, but that is my red line. The
genocide analyism really is my red line. And the reason
it's it's, you know, my red line isn't just because
I'm a genocide survivor, but because it's like, oh, for

(02:58:27):
god's sake, the data, the statistics, the research, the forensic
the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, you know,
all of those things exist and are out there, and
all you have to do is actually do your research
and you will find out that actually know you're in
the wrong. And the other thing is what you just

(02:58:48):
said about the sort of thing of painting you know,
the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know,
the extremist um. You know. The thing about like the
Bassian Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact that
there were people of our community that participated in Nazi crimes.
There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, of minimizing

(02:59:12):
the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, there
is I'm sure a French group of people who defend
these kinds of people, like there is a French when
I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian um, you know,
state level response as well as like an individual response
is that the you know, the Nazi division had like

(02:59:36):
seventeen thousand Bosnian soldiers and there's millions of Bosnians in
the country. The vast majority ended up joining the Partisans
and stood against the Nazis. And the thing is, you
can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and World War Two
and the Holocaust, you can't just say that the Bosnians
were Nazi leboration is because the thing is, so were

(02:59:58):
the Serbians. So are the Serbs, so are the Croats.
At that time, Let's be honest, who the hell wasn't
a Nazi collaboration is now it just doesn't excuse it,
absolutely not. But what it does sort of show is
that that history, that period um in Yugoslav history is
really complicated because you know, you had the Gusta sia

(03:00:22):
Um and then you had the Chechniques and then there's
a period where the Chechniks were against us the Sha
right because like used to show we're killing Serbs and
Romans and Jews. But then the Chechniques turned around and
there you know, these Serb nationalists, they start killing the
Jews and the Roma and then they start working with
the hand down the Jews in the Roman and then
they start working with them to stand against the you know,

(03:00:46):
the Tito's Partisans Um. Meanwhile, you know Tito's Partisans had
a multi ethnic coalition like and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Romans,
use Croats, Albanians, you know, all sorts of people who
were very like, you know, anti Nazism. So you know,

(03:01:11):
we're we're gonna we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our
our country, we're gonna you know, make this beautiful sort
of you know, multi ethnic kind of state, which they did,
which is amazing. But yeah, but it is a complicated
sort of piece of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes,
they're the Nazi collaborationists because um, at some point or

(03:01:31):
not everybody was, and at some point or not everybody was. Also. Yeah,
it's like like it's when when when you when you
start getting into like it becomes this like you know,
it becomes a way of just getting people to I
don't know how to describe it, like, you know, when

(03:01:51):
when when it starts being like this specific ethnic group
as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes.
Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's
not how this works. Like it's not like like like
they're like there are like there, Yeah, there's gonna be
people in the ethnic group who did things that were awful.

(03:02:12):
There's also going to be people, especially especially in inaction
like this, there's there's a lot a lot of probably
more people who fought them. Yeah. Yeah, that's such an
interesting statement because I'm going to compare to the Bosnian
response after the genocide, which has consistently been No, we
don't believe that every single service bad, and we are

(03:02:34):
only talking about those that took place, took part in
these crimes, and those that concealed them. And that has
always been the collective and state level response of all Bosans.
Now you have to think about I have a friend
who's who, who's nine members of her family were killed

(03:02:57):
in Stubberty in July. That's an absorbinate number of people.
These were women, children, and men and elderly. There was
no discrimination when it kim comes to her. I've sat
with her as she's read all the names of her,
you know, killed family members. That woman, with all the

(03:03:20):
pain that she survived with being there as a young
girl in the midst of genocide, in the midst of
these her horrifying crimes, has never once publicly or privately
to me said, yes, old serbs are the same, Yes,
all of them are war criminals. Yes all of them
hate us, absolutely not. And the thing is, I think
about myself as well, Like you know, my earliest childhood

(03:03:43):
memories me being shot at by a sniper, knowing my
father was in a concentration camp, knowing that my grandmother
was just killed by a bomb, um knowing that, you know,
my biological dad was dying in a hospital from an attack,
and my mother could also be killed because she was
pregnant with my brother at the time. And so these
are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're not very happy memories.

(03:04:07):
And I know why those things happened, you know, I
know why I was being shot at by a sniper,
and it was because I was bossy, and it it
was because I was Muslin, and because I was seen
as the enemy, even though I was you know, a
little kid at you know, six seven years old, um,
and absolutely not a threat to anyone, and nobody should
have been shooting at me. They did anyway, Even though

(03:04:28):
that happened, I never had that feeling of all serbs
are awful. All serbs are you know, I'm going to
paint them all with a brush. But a lot of them, unfortunately,
especially on the you know, the the ultra nationalists that
continue to not just the night the Genis night, but
also glorified and celebrate it. They do paint everyone with

(03:04:51):
the same brush, you know. And and the worst thing,
the funniest thing, is that they paint themselves with the
same brush. You know, they they think that they to
speak for every single serve person um, and that's the
tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. I get accused
of like constantly talking about serves and I'm like, I

(03:05:12):
absolutely am not. I'm talking about the nationalists that I
will call out all the nationalists, whether they're CAUSI Inserpient, Croatian, American, whatever,
but we're talking about you know, what you're doing to
me and your response to my criticism of nationalism is
actually the thing that's ruining your reputation. Yeah, it's it's

(03:05:32):
the it's it's deth the nationals, caamp it, it's it's
you have you have to conflate all of the individual people,
the ethnic group, and the state. They all they all
have to be this like you know, this must be
this organic totality and it's not true. It's just not.
But that's you know, that's that's that's the sort of
it's it's the motus apperanda behind their entire ideology, and
it's what they deploy, you know, it's what they deploy

(03:05:52):
when the genocides, is what they deploy when they have
to sort of like you know, sort of promoted openly
or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's like that justification, it's
how they justify it, I know. And like we all
know about the ten stages of genocide, but my colleague Um,

(03:06:16):
who's brilliant actually has often talked about that denihalism is
not really the final stage of genocide. It is in
fact triumphalism, Um, And that's what we're actually seeing in Bosnia.
You know, we're not I get genocide denialism from American

(03:06:39):
leftists and like British leftists who are on a certain spectrum,
and obviously I don't get genocide denialism from ethno nationalist Serbs.
What I get from them actually is very openly celebrating
and threatening another genocide. They're not in my mentions saying,

(03:07:01):
oh there was no genocide, uh, Darren, my mentions saying
no one shoots a Staba and so, which is basically
a slogan that says knife fire, Serboniza, and it's like
basically a threat that another Sherebania will occur. They're in
my mentions, in my emails and in my d MS
sending me threats about how they can't wait till I'm

(03:07:22):
put in a rape camp again. How they can't wait
untill they kill my family, until sorry ever gets bombed again,
and how you know we're they're gonna finish the job.
How Rat is a hero because he killed all those
you know people in Serbonizza and sorry able to be sugared. Um.
Kata Juch is a hero because he's the same Inlshi,
which is a hero because he believes in a greater Serbia.

(03:07:45):
These people don't hide it, um, And that's the thing.
So it's it's very like just today, you know, first
thing in the morning, I opened my Twitter and the
first thing that I see is a bossy activist arrested
for protesting the dot com Latch mural which the Serbian

(03:08:05):
police were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like
a mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who
who everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They
were got the police were guarding you know, the mural

(03:08:26):
and inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too,
you know, protest against the mural. And so I think
that really tells you so much the issue in the Balkans.
This has when it could happen here join us tomorrow
for part two of this interview, which we discuss the
dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime,

(03:08:49):
find us on Twitter it Happened Here pod, and you
can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest
of our shows at cool Zone Media. I'm Colleen with
Join me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast while

(03:09:11):
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(03:09:33):
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(03:09:55):
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(03:10:17):
happening and how they can continue to happen if you
don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today
we're doing part two of the interview with genocide expert
Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that have
been happening in Bosnia recently. Is you and if you
hope you enjoy can can you give an explanation of
what's happened in the last couple of weeks because it's

(03:10:40):
terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah,
I mean yeah, So that's where are we now? Uh,
you know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the
date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah, the audience
speech to understand what the dating agreement is, and I
was going to talk about it earlier, but I went
off on a tangent, So my apologies. Um, so obviously

(03:11:04):
you know where the war is happening, The genocide is happening,
um Staverns. The worst of the genocide happens, you know
eight thousand people are killed in just a matter of
a few weeks, few days really, Um, the international community
does not act at that time. UM. Towards the end

(03:11:26):
of the year, another attack happens, since Sarievo and Marcalis
civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit. I
think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and that
that's kind of when the international community starts to open
their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not to

(03:11:47):
bory with the details of no gagotiation process was absolutely
ridiculous and every single time to discuss it, it was
about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what
happened with the eight In agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote
peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that

(03:12:11):
there would be a three member presidency. So instead of
having one president, we would have a three member presidency.
It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative,
a Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means
that there's no representatives for anyone who's another whether it's
the identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian, but not Boshnak like

(03:12:36):
they you know, it's just there's no space for the
other in this constitution with the state in peace agreement.
But that's for another day. Um. They also split the
country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides
and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing
all over eastern Bosnia up in the north. Um, you know,

(03:12:59):
basically the interest national community said, good job, here's your
own territory that you ethnically cleanse um. So they split
the country down, you know, these ethnic lines, and uh,
you know, the war stops. And then now we have
to sort of contend with this you know, peace agreement
with the new constitution. We we get this um called

(03:13:22):
the OHR Office of the High Representative. The High Representative
is basically a person who holds the highest power in
the country. They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um,
they're put in place there by the international community. So
the OHR kind of you know, comes and breaks us

(03:13:45):
up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been
anything from things like the flag, like the new flag
of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag
of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because
the OHR deans that it would be you know, offensive
to the Serbs or the Croats um and the same

(03:14:06):
thing was like the national anthem. So they hold a
lot of power. Now just recently we switched a chart representative,
so we have a new high representative. Before it was
Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,
time as the High Representative was to enact a law

(03:14:30):
against genocide denihalism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning
for for years because you know, um, I think in
your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever
could you know happen to you, happen to you, where
you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people
were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,

(03:14:53):
dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People
want to be be able to you know, know the
truth and and and and be feel safe with the truth.
So the genocide denialism law was good. But this is
kind of when things started to you know, shift a bit,

(03:15:14):
because I think Dotta came out. Melanadte, who is currently
the Serb member of the Presidency who controls the Bublical Subsco,
which is the entity where that's considered the Serb entity,
but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um, he came
out and he said, well, if they passed the genocide
denialism law, we're going to succede within eight days. And

(03:15:37):
obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's the thing, um,
Milanard Dodeck has been threatening succession for years now. This
is not anything new. What is new is the fact
that this time he seems to talk about not just

(03:15:58):
talk and threaten about up succeeding, but actually has started
to kind of drop the papers and not a not
to legally succeed, which he is not allowed due to
the date and agreement. Um, but he is. He has
drought up the papers to start pulling out of all
the national level. So you know, Bosnia is the country,

(03:16:20):
republican subscuise and entity. The Federation is an entity, but
both of them are accountable to the national sort of
state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know,
been saying I'm gonna republica subscott Deserve. We're leaving, like
we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna
pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're

(03:16:44):
gonna have serve only, you know, serve only. Courts, serve only, lawyers,
serve only, justices, serve only, I don't know, passport, whatever,
control serve basically anything that was at a national level,
whether it's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know,
procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it

(03:17:07):
as like serve only. Obviously, I think the dagger is
right there. Served only. Where have we heard that before?
We heard that nineties And the biggest sort of brad
flag has really been this thing about them forming that
a public scot army, and they're not even talking about
forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words

(03:17:29):
reforming that Republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of
Scott Army, you know, was led by kaa In. These
are the same people that put girls as young as
ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed
babies as old as you know a few months, that

(03:17:49):
killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a
hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys
that were going village to village, city to city killing, torturing,
bombing the hell out of Sorry though, these were the
guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to
four thousand mortar shells on SORRYO and snipe it. I

(03:18:14):
don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand
times per day. It's just these are the bad guys basically.
Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going
in Bosnia. And it is the reason why so many
of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand,
he has threatened, he has made you know, Don has

(03:18:35):
made plenty of rest before. But on the other hand,
in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.
You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has
scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill
out otherwise you know, Sorbia doesn't get into the EU.

(03:18:56):
You know, there's there's always been some sort of of
I don't know, influence there, the o h r's influence
as well. But in recent years the international community has
not stood by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean,
here's the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it

(03:19:20):
so that we, the Bosnia's have to abide by it,
but they also have a responsibility to ensure that it
is actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs
in importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement,
so you know, the Date and Agreement was very kind
of specific that it was one a temporary solution and

(03:19:41):
to the international community was to work on finding a
more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual
sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things.
But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of
bousing it to kind of live up on its own,
um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,

(03:20:02):
the EU is the U s they're doing their typical
thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems
less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean,
he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalist,
but right now I feel like he has so much confidence,
and I think he also knows that like the US

(03:20:24):
and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry
about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a
priority so he can play around with it. And then
we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State
Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this
man openly stated on national television that he is reforming

(03:20:48):
and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff
like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really
a big believer on the international community, because, come on,
like I have him, experience speaks for itself. I've already
lived lived their help, and I'm like, no, thanks, please

(03:21:09):
stay away. But I don't live in that world. I
live in a world where, you know, I'm from a
small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders and
on the international community. So while I would love to say, well,
fuck the EU, fuck the US, we don't need them,
the reality is that we do need them. We do

(03:21:29):
need them to do their jobs. And because if they don't,
I am really worried that the situation is going to
continue to escalate further and further. And this appeasement of Dotty,
especially in the last several years, has gone on so
much that at this point I think you have to

(03:21:52):
like start to wonder, like, do these does the international community,
you know, even want peace and stability in Bosnia or
did they benefit from our constant instability and what is
their long term plan. But that's kind of where we're
at right now. I think there there's you know, there's
the people in in Bosnian politics and activist circles right

(03:22:14):
now who are calling on US leadership or calling on
EU leadership, and there's a lot of oh, no, the
EU sucks, the US will help us, the U s sucks,
the EU will help us, Turkey is gonna help us, No,
Turkey sucks. There's a lot of like disagreement. Um. I
think the reality is that, oh my god, does it
suck that we aren't in this position where we have
to rely on external sources because once again we are

(03:22:38):
feeling alone. Once again, we're sort of being back into
a corner and once again we're being threatened with a
prospect of, you know, a new war. And I think
the reality is the minute, the minute that he gives
that green light for that the Republican scott Army to
be formed, there will be violence. We've seen what happened before.

(03:23:02):
We cannot afford to even have one act of violence.
We cannot afford to have even one person injured, let
alone die, Because these people in Bosnia, on all sides
have suffered so unbelievably much. They are exhausted, they are
still bearing their loved once twenty six years later, they

(03:23:22):
still haven't you know, found that peace. They're worried and
scared for their future, and they deserves so much more,
they really really do. So I think, you know, I'm
I'm hoping and praying that. Um. You know, we obviously
continue talking about this issue, and we try to pressure
those people in power to you know, calm the situation down,

(03:23:45):
but the reality is that this is going to be
our future for as long as they never exists, and
until the Bosnian constitution is completely reformed and dating is
completely either thrown out or reformed to actually allow for
a you know code, actual multi ethnic United country that's

(03:24:09):
not broken up across ethnic you know aligns, and it's
not ethnically segregated, we're going to continue being in the situation.
So yes, for right now, I think, let's talk about
this and let's kind of pressure those powerful people, but
really a long term it's time to start thinking about
ending the date and agreement, and it's time to start
thinking about actually building that you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural,

(03:24:35):
multi religious country that we fought for, you know, you're
saying like okay, like what what what is you know,
what what is Europe actually wants out of this? And
you know, I mean I think it's pretty clear, like okay,
so you know it, the Day and accords are like okay,
we're just gonna give all of the ethernnationalists like their
own fiefdom. Right, It's like, okay, here, here's your award

(03:24:57):
for the genocide. You get your like yeah, and I
think you know, like that's that's that's that's that's a
very classical you know that that that's what Europeans do. Right,
It's like, yeah, they come in the sport of the
nationalists and it's like, you know, they they don't want this,
like they don't actually want like if a functioning, multi ethnic,

(03:25:18):
multiracial society because you know, oh oh the horror weight
hold on what if other people look at that and go, wait,
why why do we have Like yeah, I think that
I don't know. I think you see this both you know,
back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties,
and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,
look we're heroes. We uh helped them do the genocide,

(03:25:42):
and then kind of sort of did something maybe later
and I think, like, yeah, I don't know, just the
possibility of that happening again, the possibility of its just
being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosty,
this this is where we do press tours for like
why the American Army is good and like fun anyone
else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on,

(03:26:04):
they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not
saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying
is that if they really wanted to, the people who
are in power would not be in power, right Like,
but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Schovich,
who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also,

(03:26:27):
by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and
once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of
you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up
and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's
you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryman and Looshevitch,
it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty. I talk

(03:26:47):
about Dotic a lot more because I think he's a
more immediate threat, but it's important that we don't forget
that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat as well. Um.
And you know, but but I think about it this way,
like I know for a fact that if these people
did not benefit the system somehow, they would not actually
be in power. But they do. They do benefit them

(03:27:09):
and I think, you know, in a modain Albright called
Dot like a breath of fresh air um in you know,
the nineties when he came to power and then and
now here we are you know, um got its threatening
more and threatening succession and talking about serve only you know,

(03:27:31):
spaces and serve only armies and it's just it's exhaust thing.
But yeah, it's it's it's also funny. It is funny
when you think about it, because the reality is that
it doesn't it never had to be like this, and
it doesn't have to feel like this in the future either.

(03:27:51):
But unfortunately it will continue to be like this because
that's just you know, what the powerful want, like what
those actually will have some power one And that's the
thing that sucks because when you you know, I feel
like I'm starting to sound conspirator, but I'm not. Um.
You know, when you when you think about like Europe
overall and how they looked at Bosnia. I think for

(03:28:14):
the last you know, hundred years um and their policy
towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me to kind of
be filled with any sort of confidence about what their
plans are. You know. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's
Europe in the United States, two countries that historically have
never done anything bad, have never done any genocides, and

(03:28:37):
have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So like
you said, you know, Bosnia's there are so much is
like this press store for you know, these politicians to
come and to talk about why we're such a great
example of the peace process when we're really we're not,

(03:28:58):
you know, And the thing is, don't you know they'll
come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,
it was the best solution at the time, and it's
like it was not, you know, but but they have
convinced that themselves that this was like a win for
intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get

(03:29:19):
me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy
that the war ended and that the genocide ended, um.
And I think until you're in that position of growing
up in the midst of you know, all these bombs
and murders and tortures all around you, and you know,
the only style do you ever hear are the sounds

(03:29:41):
of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you,
you won't really know how it feels when that finally
stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult
um it can be to think about obviously any future
sort of prospects of war um. And I think that's
that all so is a is a contributing factor to

(03:30:02):
the overall instability of Bosingia because for twenty six years now,
our policy as a people, but as a country as well,
has been as long as there's no shooting, which is
not a sound policy because you know, settling for the
bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths

(03:30:23):
are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,
to the United States. People are struggling for for jobs,
people are struggling to find food. You know, all of
these things, um, on top of the threat of war
and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a

(03:30:44):
sound policy, and I'm just hoping, um, it will change
eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,
which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in
in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them
to do the right thing to obviously talk about this.
But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such

(03:31:04):
a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um,
you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So
I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,
so much more to do, I think. I think that's
a good place to end on with just the realization that, Yeah,

(03:31:30):
I mean, if if, if there's no fundamental change in
the structures and the forces and in the politics that
created a warth created genocide, like it's going to happen again. Yeah,
and so you you you have to actually change it.
You can't just sort of put this band aid on
it and put it in stasis and just leave all
the structures intact. You have to now you have to

(03:31:50):
knock them over before you can build something else. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
unnessa think thank you so much for talking with me. Um,
where can people find you? And what books do you
want to read because as as as we've said over
and over again on this podcast, do not get your
information from podcast. Actually, read books is the thing you need,

(03:32:11):
what you need to do. UM. Yeah, well if you Obviously,
I know our audience can't see yet, but here's my
little one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously,
people can find me on Twitter. Um, you know, type
in my name A R N E s A. But
my at is at ore are are r A F

(03:32:33):
s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But
also I have a book out so if people want
to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM.
And it is based on real life experiences of my
family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more
so on the emotional UM side of things. But if

(03:32:55):
you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,
I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's
going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and
Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on

(03:33:18):
the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf
on my Twitter of tons of books So if you
want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,
about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side,
feel free to shoot me a d M. I have

(03:33:38):
a handy little guy that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um,
And there's also a list of books on like my
website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can
post it. We can put a link to it in
the description. I've I've read some stuff on there. It's
very good. You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself
on really good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah,

(03:34:02):
well Vanessa, thank you again. And yeah, this this has
when it could happen here? Find us that it could
happen here pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the
show is that we do are You can find it
at the cool Zone on the same places and yeah,
oh boy, genocide bad hope there's no more work to

(03:34:22):
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I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception,
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