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January 28, 2025 84 mins

Today we talk about Oprah's involvement in a self help guru who killed three people in a sweat lodge, and how it goes into a shift in American culture driven by The Oprah Winfrey show.

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media Welcome Back to Bastards the Behind podcast Robert
Evans A. Uh, your brain will put that together in
the right order. Or maybe that only works with written words.
Maybe maybe it just sounds like I had a stroke.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Let's ask our guest today, Uh, bridget Todd andrew T,
does it sound like I had a stroke? Always as
a longtime friend of mine, Bridget that really that really
helps as.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
A longtime friend of mine.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (00:33):
Actually, pretty co here, that felt just like like lag.
It didn't feel like you were having a stroke. It
just felt like there's just some bit of a transmission problem.
But it's fine.

Speaker 6 (00:44):
It's really your parent. You would be like, let's put
an eye on it. He doesn't, let's keep it.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Maybe we need to take the keys away though. Yeah, yeah,
they shouldn't be driving that car anymore. We got to
get the f one fifty away from Grandpa. He's gotta
go right through a fucking farmer's mark.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Kids.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh shit, it just occurred to me actually because I
met you both right around the same time, and like
mid twenty eighteen to late twenty eighteen, it's been like
six years that we've we've all been buddies. We should
go to Vegas, to Vegas to meet you.

Speaker 6 (01:19):
Was it twenty sixteen?

Speaker 7 (01:21):
I think I think I've known Sophie, but I think
I met you Sophie before I met Robert.

Speaker 6 (01:26):
Robert and I we went to a like you went
to a Nazi team in DC.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
That was a great weekend.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
Boy, I remember, no, because I'm the one that was like, no, Robert,
you're going to d See.

Speaker 6 (01:41):
You have to hit a bridget Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, we had a great Time's great.

Speaker 7 (01:46):
Yeah, there'll be opportunities to go to Nazi marches in DC.

Speaker 6 (01:52):
Ample I'm sure that's coming before.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Friend, I don't Yeah, that's a subject for a day.
I will say. I gotta I gotta give a shout
out because as we're talking right now, the US Marines
have entered the California Mexico border, and there's footage of
them with V twenty two Ospreys. So we are we
are just hours away from the first time of V

(02:17):
to twenty two osprey wipes out a squad of Marines
on US soil. Yet again. If you're not aware, these
are aircraft that exist almost entirely to kill United States
Marines that the Marine Corps continues to use for reasons
that make complete sense if you know a lot about
the US Marine Corps. So I'm very happy to say
that we're about to be suffering severe casualties in a

(02:39):
war without anyone to fight but our own aircraft.

Speaker 5 (02:44):
The reason we'll use them is because they make the
coolest Gi Joe toys.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
They look awesome, they're so cool looking, and it's just
they're just death traps. They're just honorable death traps. Like,
if you actually care, you would do more reducing American
mentalities abroad. Stopping the V twenty two osprey then wiping
out isis.

Speaker 5 (03:06):
It's it's just it's like a it's a drop ship,
but with it's like a helicopter with like twice as
many points of failure.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, hell yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
It's it's like, what if you know how helicopters are
absolute death traps? What if we made it twice as
much of.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
A death trap.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, speaking of getting lots of people killed, y'all ready
to get back to Oprah.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Wow, what a transition.

Speaker 6 (03:36):
We're gonna get sued.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
We're gonna get You're gonna get sued. You're gonna get sued.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
Once again, I checked under my chair and there was
nothing there.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
No, this is I gotta say. People online were like, oh,
only a matter of time before Oprah sues them. There's
We've had not to mention anybody litigious subjects in the past.
We are so far on Oprah's radar, Like again, this
is the only people who have ever been more famous
than her are certain pharaohs and Greek gods, like she

(04:09):
does not give a shit about this podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
People who.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
So kind of pivoting off of that statement. I do
suspect some of the young'ins in our audience may be
incredulous in me crediting Oprah with so much influence in
trends that today seem like just like massive societal swings,
stuff that's too big for one person to have incited.
And I have to assure you Oprah really was that influential.
There is, in fact, a direct line from Oprah to

(04:37):
the sort of media that utterly dominates the digital attention
spans of people today, particularly gen Z kids. Right, if
you spend any time looking at surveys of what gen
Z claims to look for and value in media figures
that they follow, you'll come upon one word over and
over authenticity. Now, I'm not saying they actually like authentic

(04:57):
media figures, because authenticity is a costume that media figures
put on. Nobody is really authentic, right, like, because that's
just not the way the media works.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
You know.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
It's all some sort of dress up, it's all some
sort of glamor. But it's the ability to play at
being authentic. And I want to quote now from a
twenty twenty four study by the NIH surveying the media
diet and preference of gen Z viewers. Quote, the qualities
that young people wish to find in media, especially on
social media, revolve primarily upon spontaneity and authenticity. Quote, nobody
has a perfect life. I would like to see a

(05:31):
real life that does not come from social media or
reality shows. And this is them, quoting a female gen
Z surveyed person. They seek a life without filters, much
like what is portrayed by influencers like Emily Polini, who,
despite having acne, chooses to show herself without filters and
accepts herself as she is. And I'm not saying anything
about that specific influencer, but like that's the idea, right that,

(05:53):
like gen Z, they're moving away from like the super
airbrushed and touched up, you know, marketed like celebrities of
the past, which is again not true. There's more ability
to fill to yourself than ever before thanks to social media.
But that's the impression that people think that they want,
and that impression really gets started. Authenticity becomes a virtue

(06:16):
for media figures in the age of Oprah More than
any other single person. She sparks the shift towards relatable,
authentic media influencers who deliberately sought to inculcate and feed
a parasocial relationship with their audiences. Oprah did this in
part by being open about stuff like her struggles with
weight loss, which made people think, oh, she's dealing with

(06:37):
the same shit. I am right, she is the same
kind of person I am. This is like she I
like her because she's authentic, and that cuts out a lot,
including the fact that, like Wilbrah has billions of dollars
and enough money to hire personal chefs and personal trainers
and take all of the different rich people drugs that
make it a lot easier to lose weight and whatnot
and stay youthful. Right, But again, its perception, it's really.

Speaker 5 (07:03):
Like pretty impressive, how easily, Like everyone is fooled. I
think by this, Like, like the difference between authentic and authenticism.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Is, like it seems big to me. Maybe am I
just an idiot? Like I'm just like this is still
very fake, guys.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
No, I think there's a degree to which I mean,
you're right for TV, Andrew, Like you're in media, like Bridget, Like,
We're all in media, so we all have experiences of
like this is the product that people say is authentic,
and we are aware of the degree of work that
goes into the background of like make I mean, part

(07:44):
of why I have the attitude I have on this
is that, like I have the life experience of turning
myself into a public figure and deliberately figuring out, like
which aspects of my personality are more relatable and marketable
to an audience. That's a thing that I did. It's
part of my bisiness, right, But I.

Speaker 5 (08:01):
Would just argue that like every child I know with
a phone knows the difference between use this pick not
this pick right, which is the exact same thing like this, say.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
You also like everyone sees some like you know the
person well, I like that they're honest. I like that
they you know, they seem like a really honest person's like, well,
but you're you are seeing what they've curated, you know,
And I'm not even making a moral judgment about it. Right,
it's not bad. As a public figure, you have to
curate yourself, right, Like one thing, you go insane. If

(08:35):
you don't have a part of you that's actually like
your private human person, you will lose your mind. Right.
We see this in certain public figures that happen to
be the richest man on earth.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Right, I wasn't.

Speaker 6 (08:48):
Even thinking about that, but yes, not even that.

Speaker 5 (08:50):
But just like, like the alternative would be a what
three sixty spherical constant surveillance, which is believe a form
of torture.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
It's a form of torture. And also how a number
of people, a number of people get rich at least
doing that for limited periods of time. Right, what is
like a lot of the streaming ecosystem is I have
for four hours a day, I make a panopticon in
my gaming chair, right, Like that is one of the
most profitable forms of entertainment on the planet right now.

Speaker 7 (09:20):
And I think when the because the alternative is like
airbrushed and perfect and unattainable visions of people, especially for youth.
I can understand why maybe deep down, you know, it's
it's like manufactured authenticity in scare quotes. But because the
alternative is so clearly manufactured, it's easy to think, like, well,
this at least feels a little more authentic, even if

(09:41):
it's bullshit.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, it may feel like
especially because of how universal that that kind of talk
about I like authentic, you know people in my media,
is that it may it may feel like a thing
that people have always wanted, but it really is not.
I mean again, if you remember the nineties, that was
not like people were obsessed with guys like Tom Cruise,

(10:04):
and the last thing anyone would ever say about Tom
Cruise is like that man is authentic, right, Like no,
Tom Cruise is like a fucking like a mirror that
we project onto you know. But he's like his his
his popularity came from his fundamental emptiness, right, And like
Arnold Schwarzenegger was a guy who was like actively created

(10:27):
during the period of time that he was like in
the public eye. If you look at early Arnold and
you know, to the point where he kind of figured
out who he was as a human being, Like, this
is not the way we thought about celebrities the entire
time that that has been a concept in like our culture,
and Oprah plays a huge role in this stuff. Reality

(10:48):
TV is in many ways downstream from Oprah. TikTok is
downstream from Oprah, and the Trump presidency is downstream from Oprah. Now,
I'm not saying Opra is to blame for this. I'm
saying is downstream from right in that I'm saying the
things that she did helped prepare the culture for that.

(11:11):
That's not implying a sort of moral responsibility for Donald Trump,
a guy she doesn't like and didn't want to be
the president. It's saying that the changes that she helped
rat in our culture were part of why we are
where we are today, right, And you can just see
that at the level of influence. This is a person
who at her peak thirty forty million people are tuning

(11:32):
into her show. Like the degree to which she has
changed the composition of our cultural soil can't be overstated.
And I hope that people can like take what I'm
saying without it being like Robert saying we should blame
Oprah for Trump. I really don't think that's the case.
I'm just saying part of why people like Trump is

(11:54):
his authenticity quote unquote. You listen to his supporters, that's
what they will say, and that being a huge virtue.
Oprah isn't the only person who started it or the
only person who led to that being the way that
it is, but Oprah being Oprah was a massive part
of why that shift occurred. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (12:13):
I also think something that she does so well that
has really been made clear from the last few episodes
is that idea of the personal being the political, like yes,
really being able to blend those things in this way
that's just irresistible and like it's the reason why her
audience was getting up and sharing like their sexual assault
stories without even really being prompted, like me too, before

(12:33):
me too, with me too, you know, like this idea
of really being able to blend those ideas in a
way that make people want to connect and engage.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's a great way to point.
And it's also weird that you make that comment about
the personal being political because we're about to we're about
to read a quote that's right along those lines. So
in nineteen ninety eight, Jet magazine defined Oprah the word
as a verb meaning to engage in persistent, intimate questioning
with the intention of obtaining a confession. Now, a good

(13:03):
example of how pushy she got with this and this
is I tried to find this clip every A lot
of the bad Oprah clips that have gone viral have
been purged from the internet, as we'll talk about. But
in two thousand and four, Oprah has the Olsen Twins
on her show as guests. Now at this point they
are both seventeen years old. If you are on the

(13:23):
younger side and you do not recall it, or you
recall the Olsen Twins as you know adult movie stars,
which they are today, let me kind of walk you
through who the Olsen Twins are Culturally. These were two
of alongside mcaulay coch and probably the two like two
like of the three or four biggest child stars this
country's ever had. Right, they are famous from the point

(13:45):
that they are very little kids and they are famous,
and this is kind of unusual. The entire time that
their children effectively, this is not a thing where like
they're in one big movie and then they kind of
drop out of cultural awareness, like you know, Jake Lloyd
or someone like that. They are in full house and
they remain in movies that are very stuff like The
Parent Trap all the way up until they are adults.

(14:07):
And some of this is just you know, people like them.
They're they're good child actors. But also there's a lot
of like very creepy pedophile stuff in here. A significant number,
a shocking number of adult men will openly admit to
keeping track of the when the Olsen twins are turning eighteen.
This was a big deal on the Internet in the

(14:28):
early ads. It is as gross as it sounds, but
it was not a fringe thing, Like I am telling
you right now. This was not a tiny number of
weirdo pedophiles. A lot of men were willing to put
their names to keeping track of that. Ew yes, you.

Speaker 7 (14:46):
What fucked up time to the old young woman on
the internet, Like the internet all came of age.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
And yeah, it's good to remember that as we talked
about how bad it's gotten that like yeah, well and
great back in two thousand and four, God, yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
Like this trend that's going around on TikTok right now.
But it's like it's like, oh, you're so beautiful. And
then it's like thanks, and then you list something that
you grew up with that made you the way that
you are, and it's like, this is exactly what that is.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
It's like, oh, your superpoints, Like thanks.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
I grew up in the error where grown men tracked
told the Olsen twins.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
Were yeah again, my god.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
We talked about thought crime.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Little joke.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
I'm generally against thought crimes. All of those men should
have been arrested.

Speaker 7 (15:33):
All that.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
So, as a result of all this, the bodies in
the weight loss were gain of the Olsen twins became
regular fodder for tabloids. It should not be shocking. I
think both of them developed eating disorders, not really surprising.
So during their interview with Oprah, this comes up, and
the interview starts with some pretty anodyne stuff. Part one
you can still find unedited online, and they're talking about

(15:59):
like who's messier, and they're in terms of keeping their
room clean, what's their allowance that their dad gives them,
et cetera. Later on in the interview, though, Oprah starts
to probe the two about tabloid rumors that they had
and eating that one or both of them suffered from
an eating disorder, saying, quote, I know a new rumor
that's recently surfaced has really upset you, right, you know,

(16:20):
the one about eating. The girls get visibly uncomfortable, and
Ashley immediately tries to shut the topic down. She replies, yeah,
you know, people are gonna write what they're gonna write.
We try not to read the good or the bad
because it just comes with the territory. Either you too fat,
too skinny, and people are just gonna write what they
And then Oprah interrupts her, asking what size are you?

(16:40):
By the way, now, Oprah, you have dealt with some
of the most unhinged fucking obsession with your body weight
that like we've tried, we were I think quite sympathetic
of in previous episodes. You should know that's fucked up.
She's seventeen, God damn it.

Speaker 6 (16:58):
Like, oh, what's gosh? I mean not to like I.

Speaker 7 (17:02):
Know you've already you've probably talked about this when you
did his episode, but like doctor Phil taking teenagers up
on stage and like asking if they had preston plants,
Like right, this was like yeah, kus, what was okay?
On like mainstream daytime television when.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
We talk about modern social media being downstream from this.
Think of all of the different parents who we now
know were like who got famous as like mommy bloggers,
or like I've got a YouTube channel featuring my kids
and their development and it comes out three four, five,
six years later. Oh, that was an incredibly abusive situation
where they were basically turning their kids, like mining their

(17:41):
children for money and deeply psychologically and often physically abusing
them to make them more profitable.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Right, I mean, speaking of thought crime the Internet.

Speaker 5 (17:50):
One of the Internet's sort of positive things is at
least there's a paper.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Trail for all this shit. Yeah, yeah, Jesus Christ, Yeah, you.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
Know what's crazy you were saying. So that part of
the clip is scrubbed from the Internet. Where Oprah asks
their size.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
It is very hard to find. So I want to finish,
finish the scene. Oh sorry, So the girls respond after
Oprah interrupts them to ask their size, like, well, like,
you know, we're celebrities. We get our clothing tailored, Like
I don't know what my size is, right, I don't
like good with store and buy clothes, right, And Oprah responds,
that's so interesting. I'm obsessed with size and You're like,
I really don't know, there's a lot there. I don't know,

(18:29):
I don't know, I don't know, Like you put a
team of psychiatrists on that that two sentences.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
It was more just what I was trying to what
I was curious about, was like because in the last episode,
we watched a clip of Joan Rivers doing a version
of this to Oprah, right and.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
On misery demand, it builds up like a coastal shelf.

Speaker 5 (18:49):
Yeah, it's like it's it is wild too for Oprah
to have been upset by the Joe Rivers version of this,
And then I mean, it's not surprising, but it is
really like remarkably un self aware or on empathetic.

Speaker 7 (19:05):
When we talked about how much she regrets her wagon
full of Fat incident, I really think that what she
regrets is making like a lot of speculation about her weight. Personally,
I don't think she has any problem with the way
that she has foisted that same level of scrutiny about
weight onto others. I think that she is perfectly fine.
And if that's complacent in that dynamic that has been

(19:25):
so unhealthy for so many people.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, I would agree one hundred percent Bridget. Now, as
we talked to I talked about a bit ago with you, Andrew,
we're not watching this clip. I would have preferred to
play it, because it's been pretty well expunged from the internet.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
Now.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
I'm not going to say I did not spend hours
on this, but I spent a good like twenty minutes
or so trying to find this clip, and all that
I was able to get are like viral clips on
TikTok that are heavily edited because a couple of years ago,
this particular chunk of the interview went kind of viral
on TikTok because people have been one of the things

(20:01):
that's been happening over the last two years or so
on social media TikTok primarily but not exclusively, is people
have been like kind of relitigating some of Oprah's worst moments,
and she has been receiving some criticism. So this went
viral and people were like, rightfully, this is pretty fucked up.
As a consequence, though, damn near every pure clip I

(20:22):
have not been able to find a pure, unedited clip
of this moment. I'm able to find TikTok videos where
the audio is overlaid with some shitty AI voice or
asshole narrating that like makes me want to nuke every
data center on Earth. Like the way these things are
like edited and put together, and like the whole screen
is covered with text, and I just hate it. I
hate the way this stuff looks, and I haven't found

(20:43):
a clean clip of it, That's what I'm saying. And
that's often the case with some of Oprah's like worst moments.
You know, a lot of this stuff has been purged,
and because most of her stuff was on daytime TV
in the eighties and nineties, a lot of it is
effectively lost media for our purposes. Anyway, I just found
that interesting.

Speaker 5 (21:02):
There's someone's parents have this on VHS somewhere. Next time
you're a home for anie holiday. Check the tapes.

Speaker 7 (21:09):
Yes, probably my late mother, because she did tape Oprah's
and she.

Speaker 6 (21:13):
Would watch them on VHS.

Speaker 7 (21:14):
I have so many, like burned in my memory clips
of Oprah being not great, but like I probably could
not find them, like I think. Nathan Lane has talked
about how when him and the late Robin Williams were
on the show, Oprah was really grilling him about his
sexuality and that luckily Robin Williams stepped in to make
a joke out of it and take the heat off

(21:35):
of him because he wasn't out. She did the same
thing to Dennis Rodman, like she really when it came
to men and their sexuality, she did some like I
think we would look at back at some of those clips,
the way that she was grilling these people and think like, well,
that really wasn't cool. But all of those clips are
so difficult to find.

Speaker 5 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's a little bit
too speaking of the political that like, because she's a
black woman, make assumptions of what her like politics and
values are that don't have to be true. And we
see this in like the actual questions and like her
the editorialslan, which is like, fine, she's obviously allowed to

(22:14):
have those opinions, but it's I think there's there's a
big like we build up as a culture, like who
we think Oprah ought to be, and the bastardy happens
in the difference between those two things.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, that's I think actually a very good way of
talking about it. Andrew also shout out to the late
Robin Williams. You do like moments like this, do like
reveal character on behalf of some people, and it's always
nice to get like, Okay, he was a really nice man.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
That's good.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
I rewatched Goodwill Hunting. I think I may have been
for the first time. I had like vague memories of it,
and that like scene where he's hugging Matt Damon, I
just had the thought, like, God, damn, there's not a
problem in my life that wouldn't be fixed with a
good Robin Williams hug. Like that man looked like he
gave great hugs anyway. Yeah, Rip, we've probably talked about

(23:09):
Oprah more. Around the same time Jet Magazine made Oprah
a verb, the Wall Street Journal introduced the term oprah
Fication in order to complain that political discourse in the
country had become And this is what you had mentioned, Bridge,
This is what you had mentioned, Bridget public confession as
a form of therapy, Right, So great minds. Well, actually,

(23:29):
I think you're considerably a better mind than anyone at
the Wall Street Journal. But you guys had the same
basic take. And this is kind of noteworthy because therapy
is at the core of Oprah's appeal and the growth
in our understanding of not just the value of therapy,
which I think is generally good, but in the use
of like therapy speak in everyday life, and to some

(23:53):
extent the I think massive overuse of therapy speak at
everyday life, this is very much tied to OPRAH. And
the way in which therapy is tied to OPRAH is
not actual clinical therapy, which is of course potentially extremely
valuable for people, but a simulacrum of therapy, one that
apes the definitions in terms used by clinicians and often

(24:16):
apes actual clinical expertise by bringing in oaths like doctor
phil who are in no way actually doing good therapy,
and in fact are doing things that the ethics of
the discipline condemn pretty strongly, but are doing it in
such a way that people believe this is what therapy,
This is medical work, right, This is somebody actually like

(24:38):
functioning as a mental health clinician, and I think that
does so in a way. Again, a lot of the way,
a lot of dialogue of discourse on like Twitter, is
downstream from this, this birth of understand that there's a
value in like talking about mental health in a clinical way.

(24:59):
But also none of us are clinicians, and none of
us are doing it right, and so we're like medicalizing
shit in ways that are in a lot of instances
deeply toxic and damaging to people. A lot of that
is tied directly to.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
Oprah spoken like a true gas lighting narcissist Rber.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yes, thank you.

Speaker 7 (25:20):
If you ever want to like win an argument in
a certain kind of group house, if like you know
what I'm talking about, just to be like, he's gaslighting
me into taking up the garbage, Yes, you'll win.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yes, I'm being abused into doing the dishes effect.

Speaker 5 (25:34):
It's also even in the absence of the like perversions
of it, just the simple act of doing it in
public or as a performance, even if it were otherwise
largely fine, which it isn't.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
I just I always think back to this happens every
so often. There's one like six months ago, tens of
thousands of people like liking and sharing it. If someone
being like, you know, people with ADHD have no sense
of object permanence, Yes they do, man, that's not that's
not five year olds have object permanence, bro, that is

(26:07):
not ADHD. You are you are in an attempt to
bring up to create create empathy for people suffering from
severe ADHD. You are like dehumanizing them, like this is
actually quite bad.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
Oh my god, that's like that's like medieval like Layman's
understanding of the world, Like that's just like burn the
Witch type.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, yeah, we're back.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Can we stop? Can we stop with some of this?

Speaker 7 (26:35):
I saw someone that said people that have ADHD can
never pick a Halloween costume because there's too many choices,
and then the reply on Twitter was like.

Speaker 6 (26:43):
Damn, can't you all do anything?

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah again, my life is filled with and I have
like ADHD. The stuff people say about it online just
feels like someone talking about aliens. I don't mean to
like harp on it so much, but this is one
I have like so much personal experience with that, Like
I really and I don't want to get like lost

(27:05):
down a rabbit hole here. But there's a very complicated
issue in it's good for people do have an understanding
of mental health and do have an understanding of like therapy,
and there are there's value in that some of that
those discussions becoming more a part of like common parlance.

(27:25):
And also it can be very very toxic because people
use it and weaponize it to an extent, and a
lot of the irresponsibility that we see now kind of
reflected down in social media and the way people talk
about this stuff really gets launched by doctor Phil on
the Oprah Winfrey Show. Right where you are you are
using actual clinical psychology as a costume as opposed to

(27:51):
as a way to actually help people, Like you are
dressing that way so you can say whatever and do whatever,
you know, and in this case, it was for entertainment purposes, right,
And a lot of this ties in directly to the
self help movement. You know, this is and this is
I think a toxic thing for therapy, right, because therapy
should not be a thing that you do instead of

(28:14):
helping other people and trying to better the world. And
that's kind of the message of a great deal of
like the way in which therapy is discussed on the
Oprah Winfrey Show. And you even see stuff like Jordan
Peterson saying like you can't fix the world until you've
fixed yourself, which is simply untrue. And this ties into this,
this kind of American civil religion of self help. If

(28:38):
you remember the Woody Guthrie episodes, we talked about how
during the Great Depression, starving farmers and their kids were
listening to prototypes of Norman Vincent Norman Vincent Peel's The
Power of Positive Thinking, right, which is basically this shares
DNA with Prosperity Gospel, stuff with the Secret and mary
Anne Williamson. The core of it is this idea that
like attracts like. So if your negative thing, that's what's

(29:01):
bringing bad things to you. And if you want to
be wealthy, you have to think like a wealthy person, right,
And you know some of the ways in which this
gets passed down, like Prosperity Gospel, if you want to
be wealthy, you need to give money. You don't have
go into debt to give money to God, and then
that kind of thinking will attract wealth towards you.

Speaker 8 (29:19):
Right.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Alternatively, if you put down five thousand dollars for this
seminar on how to like automatically generate books and put
them on Amazon, you know, in order to make money
that will attract wealth back too. You have to make
the universe needs to see you make a sacrifice in
order to know that you're serious about this before you
can start attracting the money. Right, All of this stuff

(29:42):
is it doesn't start obviously, again, as we talked about,
this has been going on since like the early nineteen hundreds.
It doesn't start with Oprah, but by bringing on mary
Anne Williamson and then by pushing later the secret, she
supercharges this shit, and she supercharges it at the same
time as she is continually on the show pushing this,

(30:03):
pushing therapy and a specific attitude towards therapy, right, which
the overall thing you're supposed to take away from this
is you can fix every problem in your life by
changing your attitude. Now, that is simply untrue. Right, there
are social problems and issues that affect people's ability to

(30:26):
be happy, that are rooted in politics, that are rooted
in history, that are rooted in things you have no
control over. And it is true obviously your own attitude,
you know, can matter a lot, and your resilience. But
there's this big thesis of like every problem can be
fixed by altering your attitude. You can even change the
way the universe works by altering your attitude. That gets

(30:48):
wrapped up in the kind of pro therapy ethos being
pushed with Oprah in a way that warps what therapy is.
And yeah, it's just it's it's it's complicated, but I
think very profoundly toxic.

Speaker 5 (31:04):
Yeah, it turns therapy into like telekinesis magic. Yes, yeah,
at at sort of best where it's just like and
I guess to me, it's like all this shit, it's like,
do you never consider the counter factual of any of this?
Like just like, oh, sorry kid, sorry about all your cancer.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
You should have had a better attitude.

Speaker 5 (31:30):
Like it's so fucking disgusting when you think about any
failure case of this, and it's, oh, I don't know,
it's so hard to argue against, but it's just like
you're it's so gross for that reason.

Speaker 7 (31:43):
To me, Well, I actually think like it's incredibly like
it's I completely it's like gross. It stocks like I
completely agree, but it's also so enticing, right, Like I
am some like I'll give myself as an example. I've
been a little down the dumps, shall we say, since
January twentieth, and you know, I like, you can feel

(32:06):
very out of control and there's so much happening that
I really can't control. Somebody coming in and saying, actually,
you can control it, don't be afraid because it's all
it's all in your head. And if you just did X,
Y Z or got right in this way you can
control it. That is so intoxicating, and especially as people
feel out of control. Like I get why people like

(32:26):
Oprah turned to this because it works. And I have
to say, like, I get why it works. I get
why it's effective.

Speaker 5 (32:31):
Well, because because there's like a germ of truth, like
speaking of like Jordan Peterson. I did have a moment
where I was like, you know, most of these boys
that listen to him really could clean their room.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
More like and that would sensuably improve their.

Speaker 6 (32:45):
Lives, and then getting might help.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
Yeah, but then once once the little amount of information
like actual of value that they've imparted has paid off,
everything subsequent to that is complete bullshit.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
And it's just like the line of like how valuable
this is is.

Speaker 5 (33:05):
But it's such a like even as we're talking, you
see how you lose this argument because it's like.

Speaker 8 (33:10):
Well, okay, some of this works, but like not all
of it, but I can't prove that none of it works,
and no, da dah, and you just you become a
dithering idiot in the face of all you have to
do is be positive.

Speaker 5 (33:21):
Yeah, like a simple lie is always going to be
better than a laborious.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Refutation yeah, yeah, I think that's right, and I think fundamentally,
you know, part of what's so poisonous here is that
it's taking therapy and it's turning it into magic, right that,
like this is a thing you can magically fix and
have a breakthrough in twenty five minutes sitting on a
couch in front of an audience with doctor Phil. Like

(33:46):
that's the way therapy works. And also that's the way
fixing the world works. Is if you change your attitude,
all of these good things will come to you. You
don't have to worry about dealing with structural problems in
legislation and the government and all of this shit, like
it's just you when in reality, therapy and making the
world better work the same way, which is slowly doing
laborious work consistently over long periods of time. Right, Yes,

(34:12):
that's the problem.

Speaker 5 (34:13):
You know.

Speaker 7 (34:14):
It's like that episode of Rick and Morty when Rick
goes to therapy and the therapist is like, I get
that this is like flossing for you, and it's like
not exciting and it doesn't happen all at once and
it's just boring maintenance. But like that's the trick, Like
that's the magic is you do it a lot, and
you get small gains and maybe over the course of
years you feel a little bit better consistently and like tada,

(34:34):
Like people do.

Speaker 6 (34:36):
Want that magic solution in that magic bullet.

Speaker 7 (34:38):
I get why that's really enticing, but that's just not
the way it works.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
And I think this is as someone who was in
psychedelic delic culture fifteen years ago. This was one of
the issues that we had with it, which is psychedelics,
particularly LSD mushrooms MDMA have massive potential as ais therapeutic aids,
but they aren't magic, and there's a degree to which
people treated them both as magic and also as inherently positive.

(35:03):
At this point, I have gone through enough self described
radicalization journeys by nazis who credited it to an LSD trip.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, this is a
knife what cuts both ways? My friends.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
Yeah, it's just a big old scramble and you just wish,
Yeah it works. And also it's such a it's such
a like insidious grift because it's so easy. Then when
it doesn't work, for you to point out that you
didn't magic hard enough in various ways.

Speaker 7 (35:35):
Yeah, when your kid actually dies of the cancer they
had because their vibes were off. You can just be like, no,
you didn't want it, he didn't want to live enough,
or whatever. It's never the huckster's fault.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Now, speaking of your children dying, they never will if
you purchase the products and services that are advertised on
this on this podcast, it's the only way to keep
your family safe. Probably we're back. So In her book
The Age of Oprah, Jenny's Peck quotes a history of

(36:10):
psychotherapy by Philip Cushman. He wrote in nineteen ninety five, quote,
every era has a particular configuration of self illness healer technology.
They are a kind of cultural package. They are interrelated, intertwined, interpenetrating.
So when we study a particular illness, we are also
studying the conditions that shape and define that illness and
the sociopolitical impact of those who are responsible for healing it.

(36:32):
Janis continues, Winfrey's identification is a spiritual healer. Her diagnosis
of what ails us, and her prescribed cure are rooted
historically in the therapeutic enterprise that emerged in the nineteenth
century and was fully institutionalized in the United States by
the mid twentieth century. Debbie Epstein and Deborah Steinberg suggest
that the centrality of therapeutic discourse to the framing of

(36:53):
the Oprah Winfrey Show issues from the increasing ubiquity of
therapy as a language of self and interpersonal relationship, and
even as a way of life. Winfrey's media enterprise draws
heavily on a self help model of therapy, with its
peculiarly American belief that the individual's power to initiate a
renaissance of self, of nation, of other. This promise of

(37:13):
individual efficacy and liberation is the ground upon which Winfrey's
stakes are claimed to empower her followers. It is also
the basis of observers claims that she is an inspirational phenomenon,
a public leader, and quote almost a religion.

Speaker 5 (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, you know, as we're talking, I just had
the realization that, like what kind of what Oprah offers
is kind of like those like right wing pregnancy crisis centers.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
They're like abortion.

Speaker 5 (37:40):
Clinics, because it's like it's a simulacrum of the thing
that you actually need.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
And it just serves these horrible ends.

Speaker 5 (37:51):
Like yeah, I guess those are at least directed and
intentional and full of lies and throughout all the I
will say, the thing that is like still kind of
there is like it doesn't it still doesn't seem like
Oprah is being intentionally eve or anyway. There's enough plausible
deniability here.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean there's a ton of it,
and like it's important not to as we kind of
litigate bastardism like this is this is not an attempt
by Oprah to shift the culture. This is just sort of,
I think a mix of what she really believes, she
really feels like personally, she had so much stacked against her,

(38:32):
it was her attitude that allowed her to be successful, right,
whereas the reality is, I mean, among other things, Oprah
has said like she was an affirmative action higher that
those programs and policies function the way they were supposed to,
which was a person who maybe wouldn't have gotten that
opportunity because of racism, got some opportunities that she proved
to be excellently suited for. In addition to that, she

(38:53):
had the fortune of like having a father who chose
to be her father, did not actually have to take
that role upon himself, and provided her with a lot
of resources she otherwise wouldn't have had. And like, it's
not just it wasn't just her attitude that led to
her success, right, you know, as in this is the
case for everybody.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Right, But even even.

Speaker 5 (39:14):
While you're describing like like among her peers, she at
least will acknowledge things like affirmative action, whereas like like
every single billionaire you know, got to where they are
with immense like moments of chance. They high they hire
rolled many times in a row, and like the overarching

(39:40):
like common commonality between most of them is they believe
that none of that was chance. Yeah, over at least
has a little bit of like like still least some millionaire.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Absolutely. So there's an interesting bit about because I think
it is important. The degree to which she was talked
about as like a religious figure is kind of significant.
And to kind of make that case, there's a chunk
in the age of Oprah that talks about an expensive
self help speaking to her when Free launched in the
early two thousands, the Personal Growth Summit, And through that

(40:16):
I found a review of the Personal Growth Summit in
the La Times, which is a real newspaper that was
purportedly reputable at least in that era. This is what
this is the reviewer. A prophet walks among us, and
her name is Oprah. You know her as a television
talk show host, one of the most popular, successful, and
recognizable women of our time. But make no mistake, she

(40:36):
is also a healer, sent to earth to spread the word.
Perhaps it is only fitting that a twenty first century
wise man is a woman and that her chief medium
is electronic Buddha might have taken to the airwaves had
they been available. Gifted with a profound moral insight an
exceptional rapport with her followers, Oprah Winfrey has grown from
a masterful communicator into an inspirational phenomenon.

Speaker 6 (41:00):
I need to know who wrote that and where they
are now.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
I could pull that up absolutely. Yeah, let's check this out.
Flocking to the Church of Oprah June twenty fifth, two thousand,
Times staff writer. They took a name on it, Ah,
you sons a bit.

Speaker 7 (41:20):
You know, It's like somebody was embarrassed by that, and
it was like, look at that.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, I can't have this detention to me done that now.
One thing that's really interesting to me about Oprah is
that she demonstrates how quickly the worm can turn for
a celebrity once they leave the public eye. Because like
twenty eleven, I think is Winner Show stops being on
the air as a daily thing, and QAnon starts about
a decade later. Right, so she is. She stops being

(41:46):
a daily figure for most Americans about a decade before QAnon.
And yet in twenty twenty, a sizeable chunk of the
QAnon movement starts spreading rumors that Oprah has been secretly
arrested for sex trafficking. Now, this is obviously untrue, but
there are some things that fuel the allegations. One of
them is Oprah's long standing professional relationships with two men

(42:08):
who have definitely did sex trafficking, Harvey Weinstein and our
old friend p Diddy. Now, for Weinstein's case, there is
a photo of Oprah kissing Weinstein on the cheek, which
you can find without much effort. I have found zero
solid information that implies anything beyond a professional relationship between Oprah,
who stars in one movie produced by his company, and Weinstein. However,

(42:30):
there have been allegations made by other celebrities. I should
note that when interviewed about Weinstein by Gwyneth Paltrow, Oprah
said what I knew about Harvey was that Harvey was
a bully and that if Harvey's on the phone, you go, God,
you don't want to take the call because you're going
to get bullied in some way. That is probably true
in that a lot of people talk about a lot
of people who worked with Harvey talked about him that way.

(42:53):
He's kind of the archetypal dick producer. That said. People
have alleged that Oprah knew more was aware of a
lot of the illegal, bad stuff Weinstein was doing. I
think that's also very likely. A great deal of people
in Hollywood knew something, and someone as powerful as Oprah

(43:14):
was probably to some extent aware of Weinstein's problematic behavior. Now,
that does not mean she was directly enabling or helping
to hide it. It's just the kind of gross thing
that a lot of people in the industry did, right.
I mean, Seth MacFarlane is like came out and made
some joke about Weinstein during one awards ceremony or the other.

(43:35):
That was like a big deal because everyone was aware
of the fact that Harvey was, you know, maybe not
certainly not the extent of what he was doing, but
everyone knew He's not a safe guy to leave a
young woman alone with right to the extent that, like,
someone would make a joke about that, and I think
it was the Oscars, the Emmys or whatever, and people
got it because he was that much of a famous creep.

(43:58):
And in the case of Rose mcgo and, who called
Winfrey as fake as they come as a result of
her condemning Weinstein, her issue with Oprah comes from the
fact that Oprah had been set to produce a movie
about famed sex abuser Russell Simmons, and then resigned from
producing that movie. Oprah claims she had creative differences. I'm
not interested in litigating that, in part because that's all

(44:21):
I can find on the matter, and that's not conclusive.
There's a lot of reasons why you would drop out
of producing a movie that doesn't really count as like
you're trying to cover it up. I'm vun any evidence
she tried to stop the thing from being made, right,
Rose is not the only celebrity who was alleged that
Oprah knew more about Weinstein than she let On Seal

(44:42):
came out the guy who wrote Kiss from a Rose
and has made allegations that basically, you knew a lot
more than you're saying. Again, this may be true. Seal
has also been accused of and investigated for sexual battery.
So yeah, you know, I don't know where we want
to go there.

Speaker 5 (45:01):
I mean it is sort of that like not mud slinging,
because it's factual. That's like, I mean again, you're we're
barely past the era of or not even we're still
within the era of men on the internet being like
oh I can't wait t other you know xyz like
young Woman as eighteen. I It's it's a little bit

(45:25):
of that, like this ship was definitely happening, by the way,
definitely is happening, and there's whispers about it, but like
you kind.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Of just like there's there's a limit to what you
can do.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
So like, yeah, it's that kind of thing where like
every time, like like Democrats go after Republicans and they're like, oh,
you wouldn't want this turn back on you, like, oh,
we're gonna we're gonna go after your heroes, and it's
like truly, like yes, they're all fucking horrible people. Get
them all out of there. If you've done crime, I

(45:58):
don't care what political party or like who you are
in the culture.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
This does, though there's also a murkier aspect of it,
where again, when we say Oprah probably knew something about Weinstein,
I'm not saying Oprah new Weinstein had committed a litany
of felonies. Oprah new he's kind of like he's like,
he'll sexually harass you, he'll make gross comments. You know,
he might like.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
Or it's like Hollywood in that, like, yeah, you heard
a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
You don't have evidence, and like you can there's legal
consequences for just like accusing someone to powerful and wealthy
without those evidence, yea of like being a sex offender.
Like and this is the kind of thing where it's like, Okay,
so we're attacking Oprah for stuff like her involvement in Weinstein.
I don't know how extensive it was. Everyone kind of

(46:50):
involved in the mud slinging has ulterior motives and it's weird.
What I can prove is that Weinstein and Oprah worked
together at some point and that likewise, Oprah went to
a number of Ditty's parties. And these are specifically the
white parties, right, the ones that were not exclusively devoted
to sex crimes. So I part of the issue is
that these two are both very famous people and in

(47:15):
the industry Oprah was in, and so obviously she had
personal and professional connections to them. But again, when it
comes to actual crimes, there is zero evidence of Oprah
directly enabling or directly covering up either of those men's crimes.
That evidence does not exist, and from what I've seen,

(47:35):
it looks like she's probably guilty of the same thing
most people at her level in Hollywood are, which is
being like that guy seems fucked up. I'm just not
going to get too close.

Speaker 7 (47:44):
Yeah, I do want to give a plug to the
documentary that she pulled out of, because it did end
up getting produced.

Speaker 6 (47:49):
It's called on the Record. It tells.

Speaker 7 (47:51):
It features Drew Dixon, who is this like very iconic
hip hop producer who her entire career was almost derailed
because of people like Russells, and so, yeah, I also
agree that I think that when it comes to Oprah
and these powerful men, I think that like that, I
understand why it lends itself to conspiracy theories. Because powerful, rich,

(48:13):
famous people know each other, they work together, they're photographed
with each other like that doesn't mean that some that
doesn't mean that Oprah like had a direct hand in
enabling Weinstein's sex crimes, but like, like, that's just how
it works.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Weinstein wouldn't need her for that, right, There's no line
between the women that he abused and like Oprah unlike.
For examples, we'll talk about Oprah told women John of
God was a safe guy to fly to fucking Brazil
and get treated by and a number of women got
raped because they took the advice of the Oprah Winfrey
show endorsing this man. That is something that she should

(48:51):
be held accountable for. I just don't have any evidence
that she's done anything in the Weinstein case or in
the p Didty case. Now, the most bullshit thing she
gets accused of by the QAnon types is involvement with
Jeffrey Epstein. If you google Oprah Winfrey Epstein, you will
also come across this. Randomly. You will find articles and

(49:12):
viral tweets and tiktoks, all of which have some variation
of the sentence Oprah Winfrey mentioned five times and files
related to the Epstein case. That sounds bad, right, Let's
look into what that means. So one of the things
that turned me onto this was a viral post on
Facebook with the title justin Oprah has been revealed as

(49:34):
a client on the Epstein list, capitalizing the first letter
of each of those words, what's your reaction and that's
complete bullshit. Oprah's name shows up five times in documents
for the Epstein case. The first two times are because
the files include screenshots of articles, one from Radar Online
and one from the Daily Mail. Those articles in the

(49:57):
bottom of them have a suggested other re You know
how articles work. You finish an article will say, hey,
you might be interested in this article on a different topic.
Those articles that were suggested by the articles relevant to
the Epstein trial mentioned Oprah. That's two of the five mentions, right,
is something completely unrelated to the case that just because

(50:18):
somebody fucking screen grabbed the whole page, Oprah's name winds
up on it. The other three times come from emails
introduced as evidence, where a journalist working with one of
Epstein's accusers on a book tells a book agent, I
think this book will sell well to Oprah's audience. Now,

(50:39):
if you're keeping track, what does that mean? Which means
Oprah has nothing to fucking do with Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
I mean the other just like heuristic way to look
at it is if these fox had concrete evidence on
a black woman, you sure as fuck we would know
about it.

Speaker 7 (50:55):
Yes, oh my god, would you get the pictures that'd
be screenshots or be emails tie wise whole works.

Speaker 5 (51:01):
Like there would there'd be no need for insinuation if
any evidence existed.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
It's this way a question. So yeah, yeah, what.

Speaker 7 (51:08):
Like when so there are documented connections with Oprah and
like men who turned out to be creeps who were
safe to be around.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, you can see, and she's there's a picture of
her kissing Weinstein on the neck, you know.

Speaker 7 (51:19):
But like, why do you think people obsess about these
bullshit claims about her connection to people like Epstein when
there are documented connections between her and people who were
back like genuinely, Like that is a smoking gun where
she said this guy was safe and endorsed him and
then he wasn't. Like why do people focus so much
on the ones that are bullshit?

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Because the people who hate Oprah and are making stuff
up about her primarily hate her because she is a
liberal figure and the celebrity is the same reason they're
going after like Tom Hanks, right, because he was pro vaccine.
The other thing is the stuff she's done that's bad
is stuff they do in love and don't think is bad, right, Yeah,
you know, like that's that's that's what it's why when

(52:00):
people talk about the problem of child sex abuse in
child sex trafficking, they obsessed with this largely fanciful idea
of like three and four year olds being trafficked around
the world in large numbers and abducted from their fucking
white families, which is not really the issue. The issue
is primarily a dope men related to sixteen and seventeen
and fifteen year old girls molesting them, you know. And

(52:24):
part of why they don't like to do that is
that an awful lot of the guys who obsessed with
shoot your local pedophile, think it would be fine if
they married a sixteen year old as long as you know,
they did it in the church and their parents were
okay with it. Yeah, that's why, you know.

Speaker 5 (52:36):
Well, and then also the other big portion of it
is in the fucking church.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Itself right right where you can marry fourteen year olds
in a lot of US states as long as you
do it, you know, through God and their parents. Anyway,
we don't need to make that the subject every time
we talk about this shit. But I think when it
comes to like properly criticizing here, one thing you have
to note is that Oprah has made child abuse and
child sex abuse constant sess of focuses with her fundraising activities.

(53:02):
She has done harm through spreading misinformation about child abuse,
but she's not a sex criminal. This is something she
puts a lot of. She very much actively has tried
to reduce again in imperfect ways, but she's put her
money where her mouth is a lot. And one of
the things she is really consistently puts effort into is
trying to help underprivileged, at risk kids. And again, this

(53:26):
is always a mixed bag. And this brings me to
the story of the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy for Girls
or OWLAG as we're going to be calling it, Bridget,
you were excited to get into this topic. What have
you heard of our LAG? This is our South African school.

Speaker 7 (53:42):
I remember it very clearly because my mother and my
grandmother and I watched these episodes like it was a
special family event to get together and watch Oprah in Africa,
Like y'all, this was a big deal.

Speaker 6 (53:54):
I remember this again.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Was yesterday, Yeah, yeah, and it was you know, this
starts it open. The school opens in January of two
thousand and seven. It is inspired the year before. She's
vacationing in South Africa. She's hanging out with Nelson Mandela,
because when you're Oprah, you get to hang out with
Nelson Mandela, and she decides on the spot to while
they're talking and like looking, you know, going through she's

(54:16):
seeing the poverty of a lot of the poorest South
African children. She decides on the spot, I'm going to
create a school for very bright and very poor South
African kids. These are kids who are at the top
of their public schools in terms of test scores and
come from households that make less than nine hundred and
fifty dollars a month. Right now, the project is instantly

(54:37):
controversial among the wealthy neighborhood where the school is built.
They do not like that a bunch of poor black
girls are going to be going to school in this
largely white neighborhood. The administration is deluged with complaints. Neighbors
begin staking out the school during recess, watching the few
girls in this white neighborhood as they play soccer, Oprah
has the school put up hedges to block the field

(54:58):
from view. And so as we talk about the things
that are criticizable about this venture, I don't want to
lose the fact that like she is really pissing off
a lot of South African racists, which again are the
most racist racists, Like we're we're If we're ranking the
racist the very top of that pyramid is South African racists.
No one's ever been better. Speaking of South Africa, I'm

(55:25):
fairly certain none of our sponsors are based in South Africa.
We're back, Apartheid's not around anymore. So I guess we
probably shouldn't have a blanket band on South African sponsors.

Speaker 5 (55:42):
But you know, uh, those guys are still doing I
would say, whoever the sponsor, is high chance some South
African racist has a stake in that company.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
There's a very good old British song. I've never met
a nice South African that gets into gets into some
of these issues. So Oprah is incredibly integral to the
design of this school. She is not just This is
not just a case for good and for ill. Oprah
is not just somebody who throws money at a problem

(56:15):
to have her name attached to it. This is a
personal focus, and she pours hundreds of hours of her
own personal labor into making this school. I want to
quote from an article on Forbes. Winfrey severed ties with
the state and decided to go it alone, hiring the
architects behind Johannesburg's favorite famous apartheid museum. She donned Jean's
in a hard hat and oversaw every aspect of construction.

(56:36):
She thought of the little things. The tubs of umbrellas
outside each building for use during South Africa's rainy season,
when it pours almost NonStop for forty days. They're green,
her favorite color, to match the girl's uniforms. At the
school's first convocation, Winfrey took the stage to address the
girls and their relatives, bust in from across South Africa.
For many years, people always ask me why didn't I

(56:57):
have children, she told the crowd. Now I know, and
you know that's largely good. But you can also see
a little weird, although again in like a very like
sympathetic way. Oprah is, by this person point, very rich,
and being very rich also means you're coming increasingly unhinged

(57:20):
as you age. Some of the evidence for that is
that in addition to the stuff that is pretty like fine, right,
like okay, yeah, I give them green umbrellas because that's
your favorite color. Whatever you're paying for it, that's your right.
During like the big opening event for the school, because
they're having a bunch of celebrities Nelson Mandela and like
Diane Sawyer are showing up, she has the groundskeeper because

(57:42):
it's during the dry season, she has the groundskeepers paint
the yellow grass green, which is again not evil, just
kind of like, oh yeah, that's the kind of thing
you get to do and you have Oprah money.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, and the kind of thing you worry about.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
It's just like, I guess, yeah, this school's not going
to look good enough if the grass is yellow. Now,
Oprah has to date spent more than one hundred million
dollars on both the school. This is initially I think
supposed to be like a six million dollar project. It
balloons to forty million. And again she's paid over like
one hundred million at this point. So for one thing
you cannot Faulter for is dedication. This is not something

(58:19):
she is casual about. This is not something where she
was just kind of like siphoning some money off for
a tax break. She's personally involved in this. And this
school has provided an excellent education for a lot of
I think a couple hundred girls have graduated at this point.
And Winfrey is also committed to pay for the secondary
education of any girl who graduates from this school, which

(58:39):
is where a lot of the cost comes from. She's
not just paying for this school, She's paying for these
kids to go to college. And in fact, recently the
first of these girls received a PhD. Oprah showed up
at her graduation ceremony. And this is good. This is,
broadly speaking, a thing that has done good. There are
valid criticisms of it, like the fact that Oprah's focus

(59:01):
on luxury means that this one school, which again has
only graduated a couple hundred girls, could have paid for
a lot more schools that had a similar educational quality,
if not for some of the expensive things that are
largely a result of Oprah's sort of focuses. An article
on the school in Reuter's Notes, Action Aid, a global
development group, said the school exposes the stark disparities in

(59:24):
South Africa's education system, still haunted by the legacy of
apartheid and as an insult to millions of poor children
worldwide wanting a decent education, and that is harsh. But
there's a segment from Forbes Africa, based on an interview
with Sam Blake, the director of operations, that does kind
of back that up quote. Why were the girls sleeping
on two hundred threadcount sheets? Why were there chandeliers hanging

(59:45):
from the library ceiling and brightly colored mosaic tile pillars
outside of the cafeteria. Blake grimaces when he's reminded of
those early articles when you walk into a beautiful place,
you think better of yourself. He explains, simply, again, I
don't know that you would call I don't think it
would be right to call that evil, but it is like,
this is what you get when you have a very

(01:00:07):
serious problem and somebody who is not an expert on
education but has several billion dollars goes in to fix it.
Is you can sometimes get a good thing to happen.
And I think overall, this school is a good thing,
but it's so much more expensive than it needs to be,
and a lot more girls could be helped if, for example,
that money had been like.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
Like if overpaid correct taxes and then went into the
education system.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
And since she's not South Africa, I didn't. More to
the point of that money, if that one hundred million
had been handed to a group of actual education experts
in order to build a system to improve educational quality
for underprivileged Kitchen, South Africa, probably would have helped a
lot more kids, right, And that's that's not bastardism, right,
anymore than you're not a bastard if you ordered takeout

(01:00:55):
last night. That's like a waste of money, right, But
like it helps kids. It's just an it's an example
of like what's problematic about even good billionaire charity.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
Yeah, it's the same reason like Batman is a bastard
because batmanning is by far the least effective use of
your billions to keep crime down. Yeah, Like it's vanity
and it's it's just like it's not bastardy, but it's
like come.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
On evidence of like, yeah, we really ought to just
tax these people a hell of a lot more so
they can't exist as billionaires. But anyway, moving on, when
it comes to this school, what's it's most famous for
outside of South Africa is the allegations that have come
out from within it that are problematic and those Yeah,

(01:01:43):
I'm just going to list what's happened. So, within months
of the school opening, there were allegations that the matron
of the dormitory of the dormitories for the kids, tiny
Macoppo is her name, had attempted to kiss and fondle
as many as six teenaged girls at the academy. Now,
Oprah acted very quickly, as far as I can tell,
as soon as evidence came out. There are allegations that

(01:02:06):
she tried to hide it before it came out. I
haven't seen anything that actually backs those up. Like what
I have seen looks like she acted as quickly as possible.
Who knows if there's stuff that I'm not you know
that's not public, but that just seems to be people
at this point kind of talking shit. She acts very quickly,
She fires Macopo. I should also say Macopo is tried

(01:02:29):
and is found not guilty three years later. So again
I can't say I'm not going to do the Oprah
thing and say she definitely did it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
I'm not an expert on this case.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
The incident does, however, leave a stain on the school
that deepens in early two thousand and nine when seven
students are expelled for bad behavior that includes sexual harassment
of classmates. And around the same time, a seventeen year
old student is found with a dead infant child in
her handbag. Yeah, and this is like I think she

(01:03:00):
had a stillbirth or something like that. Like this is
a case of like somebody who gets pregnant very young,
and like the baby doesn't make it. And these are
all of this stuff. The fact that you have a
bunch of the kids there who are abusing other kids.
This has and the fact that there's these allegations from
this teacher, this has led to accusations. And you'll get

(01:03:21):
this a lot. And like the QAnon side of things
that Oprah started like a sex abuse factory to molest
kids in South Africa. And as a guy who has
told stories about schools that were sex abuse factories for
the express purpose of allowing certain people to lest children,
I have to tell you that's not what's happening here.
Our lag is a school for underprivileged kids living in

(01:03:42):
a country where the deepest poverty is unimaginable to most Americans.
As Winfrey herself said, by the time a girl gets
to my school, normally she suffered on average six major
life traumas they've lost a parent or both parents, multiple accidents,
death in your family, aides, rape, sexual molestation, all of it.
Unimaginable things have happened. Creating an institution where these students

(01:04:03):
are taken in away from their families. I should note
you supported and asked to live together is a huge, messy,
complicated thing. There's no way stuff like this wouldn't happen
to some extent. So what you have to judge the
school on is did they set up guard rails to
make it possible to report this stuff to make it

(01:04:26):
less likely? And did they act quickly when evidence came out?
And as far as I can tell more or less, yeah,
again there's some critiques there. It certainly was not a
set up perfectly, but like generally, yeah, it seems to
be the case.

Speaker 7 (01:04:43):
Well, this is exactly why I think the point that
you two are making a moment ago is so salient,
because I don't think that Oprah should have been involved
in a school like this to begin with. I think
it is fundamental criticism, like you cannot take extremely at
risk girls who have been living in extreme poverty. Doesn't
matter how nice the sheets are or how the chande
of leers are. These are going to be girls who

(01:05:04):
probably have problems, and it's like, of course, this is
the kind of thing is going to happen when they're all,
you know, taken away from their support systems and their
families and all of that.

Speaker 6 (01:05:12):
I think it's the pinnacle.

Speaker 7 (01:05:13):
Of nsists, narcissism in vanity to be like, oh, well,
certainly my money can foster an environment of safety for
these girls. If you care so much, just give the
money to people who know what they're doing, who are
already doing this.

Speaker 6 (01:05:26):
Don't try to set up a school with your name
on it.

Speaker 7 (01:05:28):
Like it's It's one of my biggest pet peeves, people
who think like, oh, I've got money and my heart's
in the right place, so I'll start my own nonprofit
and it'll be it'll be in my image, and it's like, no,
people have been doing this.

Speaker 6 (01:05:40):
People know what they're doing.

Speaker 7 (01:05:41):
There are people who specialize in working with at risk youth.

Speaker 6 (01:05:45):
Give the money to them, like, don't do it on
your own for.

Speaker 5 (01:05:48):
All, like the like the billionaire classes railing against the
inefficiencies of bureaucracy, like their own vanity and hubris is
so much more wasteful, disgusting and damaging, and there's no
way to make them see it. I mean, part of
what like is here, it's like there's because I was
going I was almost going to say, like, you know,

(01:06:09):
what is the comparison you know, between what happened at
the Oprah Academy and a baseline when you realize there
is no baseline, there's nothing to compare this to, Like
nothing like this exists for a good reason.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (01:06:24):
And I really there is a thing this needs to
be studied. Wealthy people trying to open schools like Kanye
West doing it like there's something.

Speaker 5 (01:06:33):
I mean.

Speaker 7 (01:06:33):
I say this as a former educator where when you
are an educator, everybody thinks.

Speaker 6 (01:06:38):
They know how to do your job better than you.

Speaker 7 (01:06:40):
People who have never been in a classroom before, people
who have never been involved in education before, somehow are all,
you know, know exactly what to do. There's something about
education that I think makes rich people who got successful
in one lane feel like they could open a school
or they know how to do it.

Speaker 6 (01:06:55):
It's very frustrating.

Speaker 5 (01:06:57):
Well because it's partially my guess is that like everyone's like, well,
I've been to school, I've been a scuted before.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Well that's really where a lot of this comes from
with Oprah, where it's like, you, I had a lot
of trauma as a kid. I was abused and like,
but also very smart and I got an opportunity and
so I succeeded. So I know how other smart kids
that are suffering in like difficult circumstances, I know what

(01:07:25):
they need and like, no, every kid's different, Oprah. Like,
and also, you don't fully understand all of the things
that helped you because you weren't one of the You
weren't your dad, right, Like there's things that just like
all of us, we all and this is part of
the process of like reconciling, oh, my parents did this
stuff that was fucked up and also realizing, oh my god,

(01:07:47):
I never realized my parents did this thing that was
like absolutely crucial in me turning out like having these
positive traits that must have been really hard for them.
That's just like, yeah, we're.

Speaker 5 (01:07:59):
How difficult it is, Like, oh, I was fucked up
by this, but like you're not aware of the choice
that had to be made. Like yeah, it's a little
bit like being like, oh, I've eaten at a restaurant before,
therefore I can be a chef, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Right, a far, it's just more complicated than that, okay,
And like this should not have been your gig. You know,
every now and then you get one of these. Really,
the only time it's worked is like James Cameron becoming
a deep sea explorer. But nearly every other time. I
guess she is second because at least the school is
a good school.

Speaker 7 (01:08:32):
But and having I remember so viscerally watching the Oprah
and Africa specials and again like I want to give
her grace because I get it right, Like it's like
the most beautiful, precocious little girls in green uniforms and
like smiling ear to ear, and it shot with that
like that like filter on it that everything looks kind

(01:08:56):
of like you know what.

Speaker 6 (01:08:56):
The like glazy filter. It was beautiful.

Speaker 7 (01:09:00):
I remember crying, like I get why this is more,
why she would rather do this than just send money
to somebody who's already doing it.

Speaker 6 (01:09:09):
But it goes back to.

Speaker 7 (01:09:10):
That idea of like the the thing that is boring
and the kind of like commonplace isn't what you want?
You want your name on a school girls in uniforms
lined up, smiling from ear to ear, like that's the
thing that gives you the warm fuzzies.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09:23):
Well, and also, it's like making one perfect school is
something you can do, making a dozen pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Fixing the system is a lot harder.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
No. I mean, it's like when I started my summer
camp to teach kids how to blow up trains and
effectively conduct counterance or insurgent operations. I wanted to teach them,
but I had to eventually accept that, like, look, I'm
not an expert educator, which is why I trained a
LLM on Lawrence of Arabia's books Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

(01:09:54):
And I've just let that loose on the kids. You know, now,
this AI is teaching them everything, and it's go wanna be.

Speaker 7 (01:10:00):
Fine, Robert, stop trying to recruit for your boy army.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
They're not all boys, said, there's a lot of girls
not buyinary kids. Look, we don't discriminate as long as
you're willing to man what wrap it up, If.

Speaker 5 (01:10:16):
Your fingers are nimble enough to get into the little
grenade pins your.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
Fingers, if you know how to mix gel ignite, I
don't care about anything else. Just like the no, okay,
we should probably stop at this point.

Speaker 4 (01:10:27):
Now, Anderson says stop.

Speaker 6 (01:10:28):
Also, are you preparing to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Wrap the part? God willing?

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
Great?

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
So? There are some valid complaints about the school. Parents
of voice frustration that their time to see their children
is unfairly curtailed. Restrictive rules for kids have been compared
by some to some as prison like an article for
the Atlanta Black Star notes. There's also the recent firing
of the former head of operations, Simon Metiko after one
year was reported in December of twenty twenty three. Court
documents reveal complaints about abuse of authority, intimidation and victimization,

(01:10:56):
as well as the mistreatment of learners. Mitiko alleges he
was fired for his performance during private arbitration at the school.
Further investigation found other employees who voiced their difficulty with management.
Once said, working under pressure, threats, and other issues, we
don't discuss issues with our management as we fear we
will lose our jobs as we are not given clarity
or relevant answers. Another said, our lag used to be

(01:11:16):
a place where one contributed more than required because there
was a culture of working together, listening and respecting professional
opinions that has changed. There is a culture of distrust
and fear, and I don't know the perfect reality here,
but again I think we've we've litigated this more than enough.
The broader problem here is that like the issue of

(01:11:38):
rich people launching into crusades to fix major problems without
knowing much about them, you know, And that's an issue,
you know, that goes right to the top of this country.
And probably the best example of OPRAH contributing to this
in a really toxic way, because our lag at least
has given a lot, you know, a couple hundred kids
of very good education. Probably the best example of her

(01:11:58):
diving into something she was not really competent to handle
that had a toxic, toxic knock on effects is her
support of orphanages in Haiti. There's one specific orphanage that
she's devoted a massive amount of attention and money towards,
and this is an orphanage that was started by an
American family to protect and shelter some of Haiti's hundreds

(01:12:19):
of thousands of orphaned kids after a massive earthquake. Oprah
has repeatedly highlighted and supported the work of missionaries operating
adoption services to help these orphaned kids get connected to
people who will adopt them and bring them over, generally
to the United States. That sounds great, unproblematic. What could

(01:12:39):
be bad about supporting an orphanage. This is where we
get to talk about the problems with the international adoption industry,
And largely the problems of the international adoption industry is
that it is an industry that profits off of facilitating
the adoption of, in this case, poor black children by
white foreigners with money, in many cases, who are more

(01:13:01):
interested in converting the child to their specific brand of
Christianity or showing the child off to their friends than
raising a traumatized child. Now, to make this even worse, many,
if not most, of these orphans aren't actual orphans. Yes,
after the twenty ten earthquake in Haiti, the number of

(01:13:21):
orphanages in the country more than doubled from two hundred
to seven hundred and fifty two by twenty thirteen. Now,
Oprah was just one of the mint of the media
figures making documentaries about these generally operated by foreigners orphanages.
And really it's one of these like these heroic white
missions coming to this dangerous place and like really risking
themselves in order to help these poor, underprivileged kids. Oprah

(01:13:45):
is again not the only person doing this, but her
sheer popularity gives her an outsized role in making this
a popular cause. At least thirty thousand children wound up
in Haitian orphanages, and about eighty percent of those thirty
thousand kids one living parent at least from CNN quote.
Unable to sustain their children's well being, these parents are

(01:14:06):
persuaded to relinquish them to privately run orphanages that promise
that children will receive shelter, food, and education. This is
often not the outcome. Instead, the children living in Hades
orphanages face exploitation and trafficking unintentionally funded by foreign donors.
Jamie Vernalde of Lumos and GEO, advocating for the institution
of the Institutionalization of Children, says this this orphanage business,

(01:14:30):
where orphanages are established and recruit children to raise donations
from foreigners, is becoming increasingly recognized globally as a form
of trafficking. These Haitian orphanages employ people called child finders,
who seek out struggling families and bribe them for their children.
The going rate is around seventy five dollars. The money

(01:14:51):
to pay these child finders to bribe families for their
kids comes from the one hundred million dollars a year
in mostly faith based donating sent to these orphanages. This
is a much larger issue than Oprah, but she plays
a significant role in it, and this whole period of time,
she's running all of these tiery stories praising missionaries who
take children away from Haiti, and actively defends a system

(01:15:14):
that is desperately broken. A good example of this comes
in February of twenty ten, a group of ten Baptists,
mostly from Idaho, were arrested in Haiti with thirty three
children who were absolutely not related to them. When confronted
by authorities, these Baptists assured them the kids were all
orphans being taken to loving homes in the United States.
The Haitian authorities looked into this for three seconds and

(01:15:35):
realized no, they had no permission to be doing this,
and also a lot of those children were in fact
not orphans. Here's how CNN describes the way those kids
wound up in the care of missionaries. Most of the
children appear to be from cabellas parents there told the
Associated Press they had surrendered their children on January twenty eighth,
two days after, a local orphanage worker, acting on behalf

(01:15:57):
of the Baptists, convened nearly the entire village of about
five hundred people in a dirt soccer pitch to present
the Americans offer. The orphanage worker, Isaac Adrian, said he
told the villagers their children would be educated at a
home in the Dominican Republic so that they might eventually
return to take care of their families. Many parents jumped
at the offer. The village school had collapsed and their
homes were destroyed at Haites's catastrophic January twelfth quake. They

(01:16:19):
had no money to feed the children. They said.

Speaker 5 (01:16:23):
It's truly like you know, you said it earlier, but
it's like they're looking for child trafficking here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
It is. They just don't like it because it's Christians.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
Yeah, yeah, because this is the child trafficking. Now. It
is unclear to me how much the American missionaries and
their leader, Laura Silsby knew about what the Haitian parents
had been told. Laura had met the childfinder who got
them these kids two days earlier and it's possible he
did the bulk of the lying. When questioned by authorities

(01:16:56):
in the newsletter, Silsby and the missionaries insisted the kids
had all been handed over by distant relatives who were
frightened the kids might starve to death. Now that's their
side of events. The childfinder Adrian, for his part, says
he had no idea that the entire point Silsby and
the Americans were in eighty four was to take children
back to the United States. He thought they were trying

(01:17:18):
to take them to an orphanage in the Dominican where
their families would still have access to them and be
able to get them back at some point when conditions
were better. And I tend to think he may be
the one telling the truth because of lines like this
from that IP article. The parents of four children taken
by Silsby said the Americans took down contact information for
all the families and assured them that a relative would

(01:17:39):
be able to visit them in the Dominican Republic. So again,
when questioned by authorities, Silsby and the missionaries are like, oh,
distant relatives handed them over because obviously they don't have parents.
When questioned, the parents say no, no, no, like they
gave us. They took our contact info and said would
be able to visit their kids. They were just going
over the Dominican Republic. So if that's true, this really

(01:17:59):
doesn't sound like child theft. On behalf of the missionaries
and Silsby. Now I'm going to spoil the end and
say everybody but Silsby gets off scott free, although thankfully
not with the kids. Silsby did due time in Haitian jail,
but it was essentially knocked down to like a misdemeanor basically,
even though the evidence I think might suggest something more nefarious.

(01:18:21):
NPR dug into Laura Silsby and described her in an
article as a woman who found arguably a woman who
arguably found a lot of society's rules optional. Silsby live
both in interviews and to the Haitian government about having
proper paperwork. Back home, she ran a personal shopping internet business,
and it was being actively pursued by creditors for failing

(01:18:42):
to pay her employees or any of the other people
she owed money. Despite this, Silsby convinced her church that
she was in the process of putting together a shagra
law in Idaho for the lucky Haitian kids she was
about to rescue. The Wall Street Journal rights quote. Miss
Silsby and miss Coulter traveled into Dominican report Public and
Haiti last July, late and late last year. They were

(01:19:03):
laying the groundwork then for opening an orphanage, said mel Coulter,
Miss Colter's father. They coordinated with people who they thought
were handling necessary details and running interference for them, he said.
So they thought they had everything they needed in documentation.
Mister Colter said Miss Silsby had an equally grand ambition
greatered a home. According to a local builder, the Idaho
plan called for a multimillion dollar complex for runaway children

(01:19:26):
on a forty acre lot in Kuna County, Idaho. According
to Eric Evans, owner of Evans Construction in Meridian, Miss
Silsby told him it would have an indoor swimming pool,
tennis courts, and dormitories for the children, said mister Evans,
adding that she had discussed having him build the project.
Miss Silsby's mother said that she had never heard of
any such plan.

Speaker 6 (01:19:44):
Oof.

Speaker 7 (01:19:45):
I have to say as someone who grew up in
the church, so I can say this, Yeah, you can
get like church folk to hand over money and believe anything.

Speaker 6 (01:19:54):
Like if you're like I.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
OO now to get back to where Oprah is in.
I'm not reading this for no reason. Oprah and her
website and o magazine, Oprah goes to bat for these
specific missionaries, writing having very sympathetic articles written, doing features
on how these people are. They're just trying to help.
They got caught up in this corrupt government and it's

(01:20:17):
just a big misunderstanding. But like, these people are really
good people trying to help, you know. Here's a quote
from Oprah's write up. The oprah dot com write up
I should say Jim said he traveled with his group
to a number of orphanages around Porta Prince. During those visits,
Jim says they were introduced to children who were said
to have no home or parents to go home to.

(01:20:38):
He says, one of the orphanage directors asked if they
could take the children to try to help them. As
we got their name and birth dates, we wrote those
down and they got on our bus and we started
taking care of them, basically, he says. The plan, he says,
was to take the children to a restored hotel in
the Dominican Republic that had been set up as an orphanage. Now,
maybe Jim is unaware, but as we know from Salesby's account,

(01:21:00):
he was not planning to take these kids to the
Dominican Republic. And also a lot of the parents say no,
it wasn't an orphanage director that handed them over. They
got them from us, right. The closest we get to
scrutiny of any of this and that oprah dot com
article is this paragraph. Since the story broke, there have
been allegations in the media that the group leader, Laura Silsby,
intended to make a profit on the children by charging

(01:21:22):
large fees to get them placed. Jim says he doesn't
know anything about those.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Class all be.

Speaker 6 (01:21:31):
Open and shutcase.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
That open and shutcase. And I know Sophie's fuming right
now because this has gone very long. But that is
the end of the episode. I just felt we had to,
we really had to end this one on the Haitian orphanageists.

Speaker 7 (01:21:45):
Yeah, oh, Oprah, why'd you get mixed up with these people?

Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
Why?

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
Indeed, and we have we have one more part left,
don't we, Robert.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
We suare do we have a sixth partner? There are
still ten pages left in the script, which has finally
come down to twenty four and sixty eight words.

Speaker 6 (01:22:05):
That's like a novel.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
It's half of what is generally considered to be the
length of like a book. Right, fifty thousand is like
kind of the cutoff. Now that said, I don't want
to make it out to like I wrote half of
a nonfiction book. Here, I'm taking other people's original reporting
and like chopping it up and you know, remixing it.
That's That's what a lot of this is is. Oh,
here's three different accounts of this thing. Well, I'm going

(01:22:28):
to tell you the similarities and the differences between them.
Here's different attitudes these different people have about stuff. Right,
Like I'm not doing I didn't go to Portaprince. I
didn't do the original reporting on this kind of stuff.
But this is one of the longest scripts we've ever done.
This is a Kissinger linked script.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
It's wild.

Speaker 6 (01:22:50):
Oh I feel him. Oh, I'm honored to be part
of this like mega episode.

Speaker 5 (01:22:56):
This really is just I mean, at least now we're
really getting into like having having gotten the early biography
out of the way. It's like, Oh, Jesus Christ okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
This is the behind the Bastards I'm used to.

Speaker 7 (01:23:13):
I still think it has like like I don't know,
I find it's so weird.

Speaker 6 (01:23:17):
I find myself rooting for her.

Speaker 7 (01:23:18):
I when I hear the thing about like the Haiti thing,
I'm like, damn, I was rooting for you, Oprah. I
wanted to be the voice of like no, guys, it's
really complex and nuanced.

Speaker 6 (01:23:27):
But here's it like that and it's hard to say that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Yeah, yep, all.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Right everybody, Well this has been behind the Bastards. You
guys want to plug your pluggables before we roll out here?

Speaker 6 (01:23:38):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:23:39):
You can listen to my podcast on iHeartRadio called There
Are No Girls on the Internet. Check it out, and
you can follow me on Instagram at bridge in rendc
mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
My podcast is Joseus Racist.

Speaker 5 (01:23:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Do whatever you want. People have been finding me on
Blue Sky. It's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
Find Andrew on Blue Sky. You know, stop him a
little bit, send him pictures of your food and see
if he'll send you pictures of his food.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
They did.

Speaker 5 (01:24:04):
Oh well, that might have been off a Daily's like
iced appearance, but definitely someone did excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
All right, everybody got out. I Love You.

Speaker 3 (01:24:17):
Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia
dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the
Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday
and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

(01:24:38):
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