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April 13, 2023 54 mins

Matt and Robert continue their discussion of Joey Mengs, and the collapse of the German Medical Establishment into Nazi terror.

FOOTNOTES:

  1. https://revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/en/the-sentimental-memoirs-of-the-angel-of-death/
  2. https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-biography-of-josef-mengele-the-angel-of-death/
  3. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-31/verschuer-fisher-letters-on-tobacco-and-nazi-medicine/101376720
  4. https://www.ushmm.org/exhibition/deadly-medicine/profiles/
  5. https://archive.org/details/racialhygienemed0000proc/page/210/mode/2up?q=mengele
  6. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01968-z
  7. https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/science-race
  8. https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/200707/did-josef-mengele-produce-any-useful-medical-research-data-gathered/
  9. https://www.urologichistory.museum/collections/the-scope-of-urology-newsletter/issue-1-spring-2020/mengeles-experiments#:~:text=His%20experiments%20also%20distinguished%20between%20genetic%20traits%20and,evidence%20for%20the%20ideas%20of%20the%20Nazi%20party.
  10. https://www.thoughtco.com/mengeles-children-twins-of-auschwitz-1779486
  11. https://archive.is/h7GWf#selection-633.0-633.955
  12. https://www.amazon.com/People-Auschwitz-Published-Association-Holocaust/dp/0807828165
  13. https://www.amazon.com/Mengele-Complete-Gerald-L-Posner/dp/0815410069/ref=sr_1_3?crid=XRGA8K0JK2PM&keywords=mengele+posner&qid=1681353028&s=books&sprefix=mengele+posne%2Cstripbooks%2C180&sr=1-3
  14. https://www.amazon.com/Auschwitz-Doctors-Eyewitness-Miklos-Nyiszli/dp/161145011X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=281P91NN3S4WM&keywords=auschwitz+a+doctors&qid=1681353057&s=books&sprefix=auschwitz+a+doctors%2Cstripbooks%2C133&sr=1-1
  15. https://www.amazon.com/Mengele-Unmasking-David-G-Marwell-ebook/dp/B07TK2ZM56/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1681353075&sr=1-1

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ah, what's artificial my intelligence? I am Robert Evans. This
is Behind the Bastards, a podcast that's not about AI
large language model learning tools, but might be because I

(00:21):
so I want to commit confess something to you, Sophie,
and to you uh uh Matt leeb that that's been
getting it's been trouble to remember my name, dude. Sorry,
so Matt, Sophie. I've been thinking about playing around with
some of these these AIS that everybody's getting into, where

(00:42):
you can like have them generate images and shit right
where they Yeah, seems kind of cool, but I haven't
done it yet because I can't get a specific prompt
out of my head, which is a hybrid of of
of Um of Epstein and Carle ray Jepson that's just
called Carly ray Jepstein. I don't know why it won't
leave my head. It's an intrusive thought. I can't get

(01:04):
rid of it. Um. But yeah, yeah, so I bet
they could do a great job AI. You know, they
make all sorts of combinations. I love it. You're a
little imingle over call me maybe same song with Carly
ray Jepstein, different different, different subtext. Um. Oh god, no,

(01:28):
you're gonna get in trouble for that. We're bleeping that. Look,
we will, we will do this. But I yeah, I did.
I did have a little red Corvette parody I did
about Jeffrey Epstein that people did not appreciate. Matt. I'm
just saying, you know, that was if it's parody song,
I feel like parody. That's what I felt. But when

(01:50):
I sang, well, they're all wrong, I'm not even gonna
sing the second verse because please, we're bleeping, we're belief
all of this. We're cutting a large Oh boy, that
was a fun forty five seconds of material that would
have ended both of our careers. I'm Matt, Yeah that
was great. I'm trying to die so, you know, and me,

(02:14):
you and I both got the Oh wow. You stopped
me from making my next joke, which was going to
be to say that we both contracted the Epstein. Oh
I get it, I get it. That's when you get
drunk and make Jeffrey Epstein jokes that get you canceled.
Get it, get it. That's not a bad one. Okay,
Yeah I didn't hate it, But my god, we have

(02:36):
to end in a lot. Out of this beginning we've
been rec forty five years we have we have all
forty five years have been cut. If you want to
hear the cut versions, go to the dot com. Oh yeah,
the truths behind the Bastards. Yeah, this is where Matt
matt Leeb and I matt Leeb and I have a
weekly podcast where we do our b sides with Jordan Person.

(03:00):
We drink a single pint of cider. We don't sleep
for twenty seven days. It's a great time. So let's
move on from the unpleasant story. You're making Epstein jokes
and you're laughing about it. Look, we have to move
on from the depressing tale of Jordan Peterson to talk
about a less sad individual, Joseph Mangola. Um oops. So

(03:26):
in his early days at school, Mangola still leaned towards
dentistry as a career due to the fact again his
homeland had or his hometown had no dentists. But of
course it's his conversation that he asked with his friend
Julius Diisbach, who's a year older than him, who tells
him dentistries too specialize. You should do a broader thing.
You like anthropology. There's a degree program and anthropology and
genetics just do that. So he decides to take his

(03:48):
friend's advice and kind of so some people will argue
that Mangola was a narcissist. You know, I'm not a
I can't diagnose anybody with anything. Um, it's certainly a
thing that gets brought up by including by like professionals
who go over his notes and stuff. Because he wrote
a memoir and years later if TikTok has taught me anything,

(04:10):
oh for sure, for sure he had that add he
actually is your keys. Yeah. So I don't really know
how to finish that joke, mat But what I do
know is that David Marwell will point out that, like
there's evidence kind of in his later writings that he
sort of mythologizes this conversation with his friend D's back
where these backs like, hey, you know, maybe consider doing

(04:31):
a broader thing, he writes. Quote, despite the circumstances a
casual conversation, Mingola's choice was not superficial. Indeed, he claims
it awakened a passion in him. I had no idea
then of the mini cited nature of medicine, but the
kindled flame of enthusiasm would retain its warmth if not
it's brilliant luminosity forever. How was it possible in so
short a time to transform someone who was, one could

(04:53):
almost say, resigned, to someone who was enchanted. Mingola answered
his own question by suggesting that his friend had unlicked
to potential that was already present within him. Diesbach was
a magician, filled with the beauty, grandeur, and high values
of his science and art, who did not speak of
the practical possibilities of medicine or the possibility for employment. Rather,
he knew only, probably quite unconsciously, how to incite my

(05:16):
scientific curiosity and how to translate it into enthusiasm for
such a versatile subject. He need it only to tell
me which subjects I would need to take in the
first semester, and my decision was unshakable, as if I
had never even thought of another subject to study. Mangola
elevated the intervention of his friend at just the right
moment to mythic proportions, comparing the encounter to that if
Athena visiting Odysseus in the form of a deer. The

(05:38):
eerie fact that he never saw his friend again caused
him to muse that perhaps it really had been Athena
in disguise. That dude definitely just said I gotta get
the fuck away from Yeah, they're just like talk and
Bappo's life. Maybe I should be a dentist. And he's like,
I don't know, you seem more interfitt in anthropology. Are
you a Greek god? Are you mad? Jake? You know what, man,

(06:01):
I'm gonna go to another country. I feel like Germany
is not in a good mark here. If you flame
inside my soul, a flame that tells me to dude,
so horrible jeans. I just imagine like Desbak becomes like
a like a pediatrician or something. He moves to Iowa,
you know, nineteen forty five. He's like waking up in
the morning, he puts on the radio, he's got a
cup of coffee. Story about Mangela comes on. He's like,

(06:23):
ah shit, oh boy, I can't tell anybody about this. Yeah,
don't inspire. Never knew him, never knew him. No, no, no, no,
my name is Disbach, not Desbak. Yeah sorry, no, no, no,
you got the wrong guy. Wrong guy. I've never been
to Germany. Um So I don't know the message of

(06:48):
this is, never inspire your friends if your if your
friends say I want to be a dentist, say yeah,
teeth fucking rule bro? Yeah whatever, Yeah, I am not
getting involved. You never know where the branch. I don't
know what the fuck you should do. Why are you
talking to me? I'm not athen a fuck off? Yeah. Yeah.
If a friend ever asked you what to do with
their life, tell them I am not a god. I

(07:09):
don't know. World needs janitors. Many janitors have pretty much
never done anything wrong. Do something simple and valuable. Yes, So.
Mangelis first few years in school were characterized by a
growing obsession with genetics and evolution. The men who tutored him,
first in Munich and then in Frankfurt were adherents of
a school of evolutionary theory that believed modern society and

(07:31):
social justice movements had corrupted the purity of Darwinian evolution.
There's a big attitude among the Nazis, very similar wording
to what the right use of today. That social justice,
which they called it, was a Jewish invention, right, and
it was specifically it was part of an insidious Jewish plot,
because if you believe all the shit about race science,
then doing stuff like feeding the starving like putting vagrants

(07:52):
in housing. You're doing that to weaken the bloodline of
the Germans by allowing those people to persist in breed,
and so it's an attempt to betray Germany for the
next war. If you've wondered, why are the social justice
stuff on the right, like where a lot of that
comes from. That's a big part of it. Yeah, yeah,
you scratch it a little bit, and then all of
a sudden you get into like Judeoe Bolshevism or some

(08:13):
weird shit cultural Marxism, and then there's like, for some reason,
a star of David. You're like, oh, okay. So one
of Joseph's first mentors was doctor Ernst Rudin, who was
a prominent backer of the idea that doctors should proactively
destroy what he called life devoid of value. This would
evolve into the Nazi concept of life unworthy of life,

(08:34):
which is kind of the most direct translation of how
Germans talked about the Nazis talked about this in German.
Rudin would go on to author the first Nazi compulsory
sterilization laws, which were instituted in July of nineteen thirty three.
This is seven months after the Enabling Act. I think
or seven months after Hitler rises to power. Thing, it's
a little less than that after the Enabling Act, but

(08:55):
that should the fact that this happens so quickly, this
is almost the first thing the Nazis do, should give
you any idea of the centrality the Nazis placed on
this idea. The Law for the Protection of Hereditary Health
provided the first list of conditions that qualified one from
mandatory sterilization. Schizophrenia, manic depression, epilepsy, hereditary blindness, deafness, Huntington's disease,

(09:15):
all physical deformities, and what was called feeble mindedness, alcoholism,
drug addiction. These are all believed to be hereditary and
thus problems that could only be stopped by excising them
from the human genome. The fact that alcoholism is on
there is funny. If you've ever liked spent thirty five
seconds in Berlin a single, you can buy a leader

(09:38):
of beer for two dollars and drink it on a train.
Like clarifying question, what do you consider alcoholism? You just
just want to know how many beers were talking about? Yeah,
I mean, I agree, very degenerate. Anyone having more than
sixteen to twenty beers a day. You know. Goodles have
to die, you know, so, yeah, that's some good. It's

(10:01):
always fun to do jokes like that with the Germans
because you know, they gave up the right to be office. Absolutely. Yeah,
it's like I don't know Texans. So casual observers of
the Nazi regime often accused Hitler of being obsessed with
racial purity and believing that Germans were Aryan superman. Now
it's usually not worth like just correcting people, but that

(10:23):
is fundamentally wrong. That is not what Hitler believed. He
did not believe the Germans were Aryan superman. Instead, he
believed in the perfectability of Aryan descended people like the
Germans through careful scientific guidance. And that is different. He's
not saying we are superman. He is saying, using science
and breeding, we can become superman by excising these these

(10:46):
like degenerate influences from our bloodline and encouraging people who
are more pure to breed together. Right, That is a
that is a different thing. Yeah, he was doing a manifestation,
you know, he's doing wellness basically, Well, I think I
think the reason it is worth kind of pointing out
why the more common belief is wrong is because the
common belief is just racism, just like, hey, we're better

(11:08):
than everybody, which is less unsettling and less toxic than
what the Nazis believed, which is we can make people like.
A lot of the Holocaust comes because we are attempting
to make people better, right, that is what Mingle. The
people he kills will die in service of this goal,
so it is important to get that right. Obviously. Hitler

(11:29):
is a massive advocate and supporter of the German medical
establishment that was the most important part of the German
state to him, and one of his first speeches is Fearer.
Hitler addressed the National Socialist German Physicians League or in
s DAB. He told them that lawyers and engineers and
architects were all replaceable in his vision of the future.
None of those career paths were crucial to Nazism succeeding,

(11:52):
but National Socialist doctors were utterly necessary. He told them,
I cannot do without you for a single day, not
a single if not for you, if you fail me,
then all is lost. For what good are our struggles
if the health of our people is in danger. Key
to this idea is the concept that doctors should not
be concerned primarily with the health of the individual, for

(12:14):
this is secondary to the health of the Volk or people.
This means that a Nazi doctor is not violating his
Hippocratic oath if he sterilizes or kills people as long
as those people are threats to the well being of
the people's racial community. Right fun, Yeah, that is why.
That is how they justify I'm not saying they're not,

(12:35):
obviously they are in fact violating the hypocritic, but this
is how they see it. Right and early Nsdab Guideline stated,
from the first day, we have made it clear that
the major turnabout in the world view of our days,
an essential portion of which is vanquishing the individual through
experiencing the people, must be the guiding principle of the
morality and ethics of the medical profession. That is a

(12:57):
crucial phrase. Vanquishing the individual through experiencing the people. That's
the holocaust. That is the holocaust in a nutshell, Young
Joseph would spend the best days of his career vanquishing
individuals in order to support the Volk. He was not
an immediately committed Nazi, though for in those last days
of Weimar, the German nationalist right was large enough to

(13:20):
fill several movements that did not all see eye to eye.
Rather than joining the Nazis early on in March of
nineteen thirty one, he joined the youth wing of the Stahalhelm,
an ex soldier organization who marched in uniform. And we're
kind of like a more organized ver you know, like
the Oathkeepers. How they're mostly like silly bastards. This is
the Oathkeepers. If they had all spent like four years

(13:40):
drowning in the blood of their best friends in the
trash exactly, just yeah, watching all of their homies get
sucked into yeah mud bogs and sucking in mustard gas. Yeah,
if the oath Keepers had been at J six, they
would not have been turned away by Mason tier Gas exactly.

(14:00):
Or yeah, if the Stallhelm sorry had been at J six,
not the Oathkeepers. They're a bunch of seditious babies. Not
to praise them. These guys are far right. Their assholes,
They massacre Communists in the street. They're horrible people. They're
just frightening. So as he progresses through his studies in
the nineteen thirties, he comes to conceive of himself as
a biological soldier for the health of the Volk, which

(14:22):
is actually a direct quote from the Reich Health Office
president Hans Writer, who added that the destiny of the
German Volk rests entirely in the hands of the German physician.
Mangolist professors were not all committed Nazis, of course, nor
was all of this genetic science that he studied based
on pseudoscientific principles. One of his teachers was Carl von Frisch,

(14:43):
a zoologist who authored pioneering studies of honeybees and won
the Nobel Prize for Medicine in nineteen seventy three. It's
Frisch who mangel A credits with sparking his lifelong fascination
with zoology. Quote in such a lasting way that I
have kept this fire my entire life and have all
too often been warmed by it. Frisch would come into
contact and again fritch is one of the guys who

(15:04):
inspires Mangola to go down this path. He is not
a Nazi. He actually gets in trouble with the Nazis
a number of times because he insists on employing Jewish
assistance after they come to power, many of whom are women.
He employs a lot of Jewish female scientists during the
Third Reich, and he almost gets like like he gets fired,
but he gets brought back because he's just such a

(15:24):
good scientist. But he actually protects a lot of Jewish
people by basically sheltering them through his fame. Another scientist
who teaches Mangola and is this kind of guy, is
Otto Violent. Violent is a chemistry professor. Mangel actually does
not like Violent. He thinks he's brilliant, but he's a
bad teacher because he's just more interested in his research.
Violind actually wins a Nobel Prize. He's a very very

(15:46):
good scientist, and during the Nazi regime, Violent also shields
Jewish students using his notoriety to protect them from the Holocaust.
And that's part of the complexity of this is that
these guys are not hardcore ray scientists. Obviously, they're just geneticists.
They're doing that kind of science. But it all gets
lumped intogether. So a number of the people that Mangela
admires are folks who will risk their lives to protect

(16:06):
Jews during the Holocaust. M just again you know, complicated.
M Yeah, you know, yeah, it's uh, it's sounds like
the recurring theme is just like you know, you're taking
just you're picking and choosing a little bit of facts
from each you know, exactly exactly each study to try

(16:29):
to bolster your weird race science thing. So yeah, where
as opposed to like Fritsch and Violin, who are very
focused have like really are have become incredible experts on
a specific thing from deep deep rigor, he's just kind
of picking a la carte shit and ignoring the whole
I'm gonna shield a bunch of Jews during the Holocaust
because it's fucked up stuff that they do. See this one.

(16:50):
You should be a dentist. Yes, it's a specialty, but
you know what, you won't be a Nazi. Yeah maybe,
I don't know. There were a lot of not one
of the guys he works with that Auschwitz isn't acted dentist.
St Yeah. Um. Anyway, Mangola imbibed the scientific lessons of
these men, but obviously not their morality. Unfortunately, this was

(17:13):
also the case for the teacher he respected most as
an undergraduate, Siegfried Moliere, the director of the Munich University
Anatomical Institute. I'm going to quote from David Marwell's book.
Mangola here, Molier or Malier whatever, counseled his students that
a good physician must conceive of body and soul as
a unity. He spoke of the majesty of death that
they would encounter in their work. Later, when Mollier instructed

(17:35):
them in the in the Anatomy Lab, Mangola wrote that
the great teacher wanted them to have a deep, even
intuitive understanding of anatomy, and not just memorized terms. He
definitely demonstrated what was visible through dissection, the functional relationship
and the structural efficiency of the components of the human body.
Mangola was particularly moved by Mollier's introduction to the dissection

(17:55):
labs my entire life, even in the most difficult situations.
I can hear his solo words from that time when
he spoke of the rights of the dead, that we
should always approach the dead with dignity and gravity. Yeah,
as long as they're dead. M Yeah, I mean he
doesn't really do that. It's one of those It's weird
how much he idolizes this guy, because that is I

(18:16):
would argue not how he treats the dead, although he
I will explain his argument a little more later when
we get to that portion of it. So, during his
first years in college, Joseph still suffered from the after
effects of blood poisoning that had darkened his adolescence. The
future arbiter of racial health was not well enough to
walk the distance between his various classes, so his parents
bought him a car. This proved to be the saving

(18:37):
grace of his social life. Having a car made it
easier to make friends, or at least to hang around
with other young people who needed a ride. He's exact
type of guy. He's the car guy. Yeah, he's the
car guys school, who's like, he's really intense, he writes
a lot of poetry. He's kind of fucking weirdo. But yeah,
we're all going to the beach. We gotta get yeah
fucking Joey m Yeah. I mean my version of that

(18:59):
was the car guy who was ten years older than
us and would buy us beer. But yeah, same kind
of guy. Really, I'm sure maybe he's a Nazi now. So.
In his memoirs, Mengela remembered this period as a lonely
One quote It is precisely this feeling of being alone,
the lack of an intimate connection to family, the lack
of a true friendship, that I felt so bitterly in

(19:20):
the first few semesters. He notes that he engaged in
superficial pleasure seeking, using his access to money to engage
in the trappings of a social life while living a
shallow existence. Mengela claimed that during his early college years
he did not seek an honest friendship. He claimed, failing
to overcome his isolation disguised this inner and ability in
an easily misinterpreted preservation of the remoteness of cool impersonality

(19:44):
and unsocial arrogance, which may have had the effect of
discouraging all who otherwise came to me in friendship and affection.
In other words, he can't let anybody in, so he
pretends that he's better than everyone else so that he
doesn't have to actually get to know anybody and accept vulnerability. Um, yeah,
I mean, normal adolescent you know struggles, Yeah, safe for

(20:07):
the whole you know, the race science stuff aside from
the race science, yeah, pretty pretty understandable. So I mean,
at this point in his life, you could write a
nice little coming of age novel. Sure if the end yeah,
it's different. Yeah, I'm actually working on a series of
Nazi coming of age novels. Um. Oh yeah, no, it's
gonna be gonna be good. Um, gonna be yeah, exactly.

(20:28):
That's what we don't have enough of. Why why a
Nazi books? Yeah, yeah it is. There's a there's a
series of detective books that I read from time to time,
the Bernie Gunther books, which are like about a detective
who is not a Nazi but is first in the
Weimar State and that is in the Nazi state, and
because he's such a good detective, he gets like brought

(20:50):
in by Nazis when there's these murder mysteries or assassinations
of Natzi, he's like forced into the SS. It's really
there's there's some good books. There's some weird stuff in
a couple of them. Um yeah, like it's it's firmly
anti Nazi. He portrays them all as monsters, but he
has to do it. There's some sweatiness to explain how
are you in the SS and like not part of
war craft. It's it's weird some, but there's a pretty

(21:13):
good books about anything fiction. You can go in any
world you want and instead you want to make something.
I don't know, guys, it's hard to explain. So the books,
the earlier books in the series, where he's like a
detective in Weimar, Berlin during the fighting between Nazis and Communists,
there's some really cool stuff there because he knows his
stuff about the historical period. Some of the later stuff

(21:34):
gets a little weirder, but you know, if you're looking
for a fucking Nazi themed detective novel, there you go.
So starting in nineteen thirty four, Mangela began taking pediatric
medicine courses with the whimsically named doctor Franz Hamburger, a
proponent of right wing Vulkish medicine who joined the Nazi
Party that same year. His clinic advocated for euthanasia and

(21:58):
regularly sent disabled children to a year by hotspital, where
hundreds of them were murdered by the state, like Gurger
doing war crimes. And I'm just like all I can
pictures Mayor meet Cheese. Yeah, it's really well, you know.
Mayor mccheese was actually had some strong opinions on racial hygiene,
which is a big part of why all of his

(22:19):
patties are one hundred percent beef. But anyway, Um, it
was his work for Doctor Hamburger that would get Mangela
his first kind of experience with twin studies, which is
going to become he's going to like become a lifelong
sort of he's going to develop a lifelong fascination for twins.
And we're going to talk about why in a scientific
sense that was the case. But first, Matt, you want

(22:42):
to talk about some products, some services. I love products,
I love services. I love being told what to buy
and want to do it. You know, we are often
told by our marketing department that there's nothing advertisers like
more than being led into an ad by talking about
Joseph Mangela's twin studies. Um, that really, that really moves

(23:03):
the subscription boxes. Yeah. I mean, you know, people here
twins and they're not immediately horned up. Yeah, man doing it.
Speaking of twins. We got a two for the price
of one deal. We'll probably bleep some of that. Ah,
here's some ads. Oh we're back, so then and now

(23:28):
then being Nazi times, twin studies are considered incredibly useful
for studying the difference between, for example, nature and nurture.
On health outcomes. Right, there's two kinds of twins. There's
identical twins and fraternal twins. Identical twins come from the
same you know, baby goo things zygote or whatever, um,
and thus differences because they you know, are genetically identical,

(23:50):
the differences between them can be kind of attributed. It's
either going to be an environmental or a social factor. Right,
when you have a health who you are? I didn't
know that. Yeah, I have a twin sister, and that's
the other kind. Um, So you're not as useful to
Joseph Mangle. He's still useless. He still would have been
interested in you guys, don't don't don't get me wrong,
Yeah he would, but he would have found a different

(24:12):
reason maybe yeah, yeah, well yeah, I mean they use
both kind of twins. So twins are useful for studying
hereditary illnesses right, for among other things. Mangel's first attempt
to study twins involved the daughters of a colleague and
ended an awkward failure. He like comes over to her
house and he's like, hey, can I talk to your daughters?

(24:32):
And she's like, what do you want to talk to
him about? Oh? You know, twins, stuff, sign stuff, and
they're like, they're like weirded out by him. They don't
agree to work with him. Good good parent in call
not letting Joseph Mangel and are your twins Nazi? But
I'm not a fucking weirdot. Get the hell out of here, Joey.
And the fact that he does this so awkwardly is
kind of evidence of the fact that while twin studies

(24:54):
are incredibly valuable, scientists who are in this field are
always looking for groups of twins that they can carry
out studies on. It's like number one, it's always hard
to get parents to agree for that. There's a limit
to the kind of studies you can do when you
consider them human beings. And there's not that many twins,
so that's a problem for guys like Joseph. It's not
always going to be a problem for guys like Joseph,

(25:15):
but it's it's a problem for him at this point.
On April fifth, nineteen thirty three, Hitler announced that German
doctors needed to move with all energy towards solving the
race question. The center of this scientific effort was again
based around the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Anthropology, Human Genetics,
and eugenics. In nineteen thirty four, another bout of ill

(25:37):
health forced Mangela to quit the Staalhelm, which by then
had been absorbed into the Nazi brown Shirts. He had
not yet joined the party officially. He decided his physical
weakness meant he needed to dedicate his energy towards his studies,
and so he did. As Gerald Posner writes, the man
who gave Mangela his first real leg up on the
academic ladder was Professor T. Mollinson of Munich University. His

(26:00):
experience in the field of heredity and racial hygiene led
Mollinson to claim that he could tell if a person
had Jewish forebears simply by looking at a photograph. In
nineteen thirty five, Mollinson awarded Mangola a PhD for his
thesis entitled Racial Morphological Research on the lower jaw section
of four racial groups entitled Oh just look at him?
Yeah just ladies, guys, Yeah, yeah, now always tell Posner

(26:28):
will will argue that, like, uh, Mangels Report number one.
He's like, Mallinson is pretty unscientific, and a lot of
his claims. Mangels Report is very scientific, it's well argued,
it's not explicitly racist. Like he's not dropping a bunch
of slurs. He's being like, look, you know, we have
all these job bones from people from this part of
the world, and they have this in whatever. That's how

(26:50):
Posner describes the study. Mollison himself was more critical of
of mangelis study, calling his work clumsy, although acknowledging it
fulfilled his its requirements. So, like his thesis advisor is like,
it's not great, but I guess you get a PhD. Anyway,
you didn't fail, so here you yeah, now, yeah, given

(27:12):
the fact that, like the guy who judged his work
as clumsy was like, the hey, it looks like a
jude to me. Dude, I don't know if you want
to like take that as an actual criticism that said,
so that we can actually criticize this. In two thousand
and eight, a group of modern geneticists analyzed mangels thesis,
and they pointed out that he makes a lot of
very basic statistical errors and failures of analysis, and most

(27:35):
kind of the biggest thing to critique about this is
that his obsession with the concept of race has no
grounding and objective science, so like there's there's not really
a center of hard science to what he's doing here,
mangel Is in person questioning went better. He was awarded
his Doctor of Philosophy degree summa cum laude after being
drilled by a board of judges or whatever in November

(27:55):
of nineteen thirty five. Now this is the point at
which things started to look up for the new doctor.
His health took a turn for the better as he
opted for the time honored strategy of just forcing himself
to sprint until he paid blood. Um, this actually worked somehow,
So I don't know, like, yeah, no, menimal science is
weird that way, where it's just like, you know, yeah,
people would do the leeches and stuff, and then sometimes

(28:17):
they be cured and you'd be like, I guess, look,
I won't agree with Joseph Minglaw on anything, but this
sprint until you piss blood. That's my that's my medical
advice for all of our listeners. Yeah um yeah, yeah good,
that's my pilates. We actually sell a line of running
shorts that just have a red line right down the
middle so that no one will no one will notice
you just be like, no, these are just my running storts.

(28:39):
It's a racing stripe behind. Yeah good, stuff. So Joseph's
first paid medical job was at the University of Leipzig
Medical Clinic. He passed his state medical exam in the
summer of thirty six and he worked there for four
months as a junior doctor. This was a requirement for
his degree. You know, it's kind of the first step

(28:59):
of becoming an mds. You have to spend some time
at a hospital. He hates this. Working with live of
human patience is not his strong suit. He finds the
work kind of degrading. The only benefit, as far as
Joseph saw it, was that he met a young woman
named Irene Shoneban, the daughter of a professor, who he
falls in love with. Now Irene is nineteen and Joseph

(29:19):
is twenty five, and shortly after they fall for each other,
Joseph receives the first big break of his career, an
appointment to work at the new right third Reich Institute
for Heredity, Biology and Racial Purity in Frankfurt under the
prominent Nazi doctor Otmar von Verschure. Yeah yeah, it's a normal,
fun name to have certain Yeah yeah, not a sketchy

(29:43):
ass Nazi name. Now and Atmar, he had worked at
the Kaiser Weelham Institute. We talked about him last episode.
He's the guy who's really interested in twins. And I'm
going to quote now from the book Racial Hygiene Medicine
under the Nazis. In the Third Reich, twin studies were
lavishly funded as part of an effort to prove that
heredity was the key to many human talents and imperfections.

(30:03):
Twin studies purportedly demonstrated the heredibility of everything from epilepsy, criminality, memory,
and hernias to tuberculosis, cancer, schizophrenia, and divorce. In nineteen
thirty three, Ottmar Freiher von Verschure published a book purporting
to provide exact ratios of relative influence of heredity and
environment in a wide range of bodily traits. He derived
his data from the study of several thousand identical and

(30:25):
non identical twins. Verschure's studies were followed by hundreds of others.
By nineteen thirty six, Ottoreesh's Institute for the Study of
Racian Vulkul examine at twelve hundred and fifty pairs of twins,
recording forty two separate physical or physiognomic traits for each pair.
Eugene Fisher called twin studies the single most important research
tool in the field of racial hygiene. Verschure called twin

(30:47):
research the sovereign method for genetic research and humans. Rachel
hygienists were able to convince Nazi authorities that twin studies
warranted substantial government support. In nineteen thirty nine, Interior Minister
Wilhelm Frick ordered the registration of all twins, triplets or
quadruplets born in the Reich for the express purpose of
research to isolect the effects of nature and nurture. I'm sorry,

(31:10):
this just all of this sounds incredibly horny to me.
Just the constant, like fucking focus on twins and identical twins.
Just I don't know why. In my head this is
just very horny, pilled. Yeah, it's also weird that you're
like registering your twins, Like you give birth to twins
and the doctor comes out, you've got a license for

(31:30):
those twins. Yeah, I need to put them in this
database of twins. No reason, no reason, It's fine. Yeah. So,
while Mollison had viewed Mangola as a mediocre student, Von
Verschure treats him like a protege. Now Von Verschure is
also a devoted Nazi. He credited Hitler as being the
first statesman to recognize hereditary biology and race hygiene. Von

(31:55):
Verschure didn't just consider himself in his institute to be
organs of science. Though they were part of the National
defense apparatus, He defined their role as caring for German
genes to provide such a strong basis that it will
withstand any attacks from outside. Now that Mangola was working
at the heart of Nazi race science, joining the party
had become compulsory. He saw it as a moral necessity.

(32:17):
The problem was that after nineteen thirty three, the Nazis
had closed party membership, worried their assent to power would
draw on a bunch of Johnny come Lately fascists who
wanted social benefits of being in the party but weren't committed.
Now there were ways around the block, and Mangoli's prior
membership in the Staalhelm ensured him special consideration. He was
approved in nineteen thirty eight and became party member number

(32:40):
five five seven four nine seven four. So that's good,
that's not a bad number. Yeah, that's you know, yea
not an early adopter, but you know, he got there.
He got there. So his first duty for the fascist
state was helping the new judicial system determine who was
and who was not a Jew cohabitating with an area
and spouse. It's illegal to be in an inner, you know,

(33:04):
race marriage, as the Nazis considerate. So you have a
bunch of cases where people will say like, I'm not
Jewish or whatever. Um, so it's cool for me to
stay married, and you have to determine whether or not
they meet the legal definition of a Jew under the
Nuremberg race laws. Yeah, it's super fun. Yeah. So they're

(33:24):
known as me having dinner with my Jewish side of
the family and I'm just being like, well, you're not
really Jewish shure. Yeah. So it's a long line, yeah,
long line of that. So in the Nazi version of this,
you can't just like, it's not as clear as just

(33:45):
like looking at the law. To determine whether or not
someone counts as Jewish in this, you have to have
like was probably like, come on, I just looked at him.
I can tell no, I mean that is actually me, Matt,
you joke. That is actually the standard is having a
doc be like yeah, it looks like a Jew to
may So most of the it's one of those things

(34:05):
where like this guy von Brochure. One of the things
he does is he's helping the courts determine who isn't
isn't Jewish. He has a bunch of his assistants helping.
Most of them are just like Mollissa, and they're like, yeah,
it looks like a Jew to may or Nah, that
guy doesn't. In the jew Mangola is develops a reputation
for being obsessive about this where he's doing all the genealogy.
He's like spending hours looking at pictures of their jaws

(34:27):
from different angles. And it's actually as a result of
this his judgments are often beneficial to the person being tried. Overall,
he found that they were not a full Jew two
thirds of the time. This is not due to a
lack of racism, but more to the fact that he
was weirdly obsessed with jaws. There was one odd case

(34:48):
in July of nineteen thirty seven that biographers were all
will often bring up, when Mangola was asked to analyze
a man with an Aryan mother and a legally Jewish
father who claimed that his real dad had in an
Aryan and had had an affair with his mother. So
this guy, on paper his dad is Jewish, but he's like, no,
it's not my real dad. My mom was sleeping around,
so it's cool for me to be married. So this

(35:11):
is kind of a thorny case. And Mangola decided that
the man was a full Jew, but the court disagreed
because they were like, well, based on just like the
report you wrote, you say, there's actually a pretty good
chance that this guy's claims you're true, and if that's
the case, we're going to give him the benefit of
the doubt, which points to kind of the fact that
these Nazi race courts are a lot more inconsistent and

(35:32):
messy than you might think, right, because this hierarchy they're
trying to develop is not based on rigorous silence, right,
it's all weirdos speculating about jaws and ears and shit.
I'm gonna quote though from Mangola, people doing the look
at him test and then yeah, look at him arguing
amongst each other. That's gonna be a fucking annoying, boring

(35:52):
life to just be the person who's just like trying
to you know, like always over the dinner table. You're
just arguing with people over pictures of various possible Jews. No,
he has a Bohemian elope, Yeah, a Roman nose, God damage,
he's a Laplander. Can't you tell a good old timey racism?

(36:13):
So he did. Yeah, I'm gonna quote now from Mangola
unmasking the Angel of Death. Mangola's examination included, where possible,
a comparison of twelve different areas, including blood type, in factors,
eyes and eyebrows, as well as finger and footprints. He
determined that there was nothing to rule out the paternity
of Alexander's legal father, that some areas of similarity made

(36:33):
the paternity probable, and that there was no pronounced similarity
between the photograph of the alleged biological father and the son.
So it's a it's a peculiar situation to try and
analyze the decisions of a Nazi court wherein both sides
are Nazis, but one side saying, nah, this guy's not
a Jew, he could stay married, and Mangola saying, oh,
he's definitely a Jew. He should, you know, be arrested.

(36:57):
I don't know, I don't know what father this guy is,
just like everyone agrees, I'm a cuck. At least that's fun.
So this guy, Vershure. When the court rules against Mangela,
Vershure is angry, saying that their decision undermined the Nuremberg
Laws by turning a Jew into a half Jew. David

(37:18):
Marwell continues. Doctor Walter Gross of the Racial Policy Office
of the Nazi Party responded to Vershure by criticizing Mangola
for the lack of clear and precise information and his
racial determination, and for his fickle testimony at trial. He concluded,
I do not think that the court would have ignored
a totally clear position of the assistant Mangola. Mangela must

(37:38):
have learned from his mistake. Wiss noted, since she was
unable to find any other instances where the court questioned
a racial certificate that he issued. So you know he
learns from this. That's good, little hero's journey there for
our race scientist friend, Joseph Mangla. That's good. That's good.
An't that good? Yeah? That's nice? You know what else
is nice? Matt? What what's nice? Great? Mmmm? Products and services?

(38:03):
That's right? You know. While Nazi race science was often
arbitrary and a scientific the science that our advertisers used
to target you with. The perfect ad is flawless. So
don't question it, don't ask anything, don't think. Just give them,

(38:24):
give them your money. You know. Uh, we're all back,
We're all feeling good. So the inconsistency and arbitrariness of
most Nazi racial designations came with some minor consequences from

(38:46):
Mangela himself. As he'd risen to work at von Verschuer's side,
he'd made the decision to join the SS while he should.
Stoffle had started as a simple bodyguard unit for Hitler
back in the old street fighting days under Heinrich Himler's leadership,
at it to grow into a state within a state
dedicated to cultivating and breeding a Nazi racial elite. As such,

(39:06):
it was a natural place for an ambitious young race
scientist like Mingle It to join. Doctors actually joined the
SS in greater numbers than members of any other vocation.
Did you know that? I did not know that, But
that makes a lot of sense and makes me sad
and angry. Do you want to know how I hate doctors?
Do you want to guess how much more likely doctors
were to be in the SS than normal employed German males.

(39:29):
I couldn't possibly know the answer to that. It is
seven times seven times likelier than any Yeah. So an
underdiscuss story from Nazi Germany is that not only did
doctors love the SS, Germany has at the time the
Nazis come to power the most advanced and progressive medical
system in the world. Fully half of all doctors in

(39:50):
Germany joined the Nazi Party. Physicians joined the Nazi Party
at a rate higher than members of any other profession.
By comparison, only about twenty percent German teachers joined the party. Um,
doctors in Germany cannot get enough of the Nazis. Uh.
You know what? Hitler actually was kind of the original

(40:11):
podcaster or matt the Adolf Hitler experience talking about mushrooms
are good. He was the first politician in at least
in Europe to really make great use of the radio
and of microphones. Can you pull up that clip? Yeah,

(40:31):
Hitler and his buddy that the fucking Brazilian jiu jitsu
expert talking about vaccines. Good stuff. So Michael CHIPS's Everybody
God podcast, Hitler actually makes a ton of sense sense. Yeah, No,
that that is absolutely what he would have been doing today. Um,

(40:51):
that's not even a question in my mind. He's brought
you by me. Undy's well the only like a specific
kind for a best erries berries. Get yourself a bouquet

(41:15):
of white chocolate berries. They are very happy today to
be hosting some ads from ze Washington State Hya Patrol.
Not quite the organization I've handsome to be yet, but soon,
very soon. So one of the few things that separated
Mangala from his fellow as sas men was that, so
in the SS, when you join, you have to have

(41:36):
your blood group tattooed on your arm. Right, Sorry, is
this American Reich? Look yeah, my whole face is purple. Yeah. Look,

(42:04):
I love Dan Carlin, but I'm fighting to stop myself
from doing a meme worth the two hands meeting in
the middle, and it's like Hitler and Dan Carmen sixteen
hour podcasts on World War One. Very different sixteen hour
podcast let's be clear, extremely different, extremely different. You're not

(42:27):
at all coming from the same place, but no, no,
but similar in length probably, Yeah. Yeah. So one of
the few things that's again, so in the SS, you
got to get this blood group tattoo on your arm.
It's like it's actually after the war. One of the
things that makes it easy to tell who's been in
the SS because a lot of them like put on
normal army uniforms to try to escape. Mangela does not

(42:49):
get this tattoo. Um, and it's his ex wife. Would
leader say it's because he had a habit, his like
hobby was staring at his shirtless body in the mirror,
Like after he gets healthy and starts to bulk up,
he just like looking at himself naked and he can't
stand the thought of marring his skin with a tattoo.
That is absolutely the most like just default Nazi setting
is just looking in the mirror and going on, I'm

(43:10):
so fucking strong. It's just you know, see Andrew Tate, Yeah, exactly,
very very taty. So joining Himmler's racial elite came with
extra hoops to jump through if you wanted to do
something like getting married. For one thing, his fiance Irene
had to pass a series of tests to become the
wife of an SS man. Now I know what you're

(43:31):
all wondering, Could I be an SS wife? You know, ladies,
ladies at home, if you want to know, do you
have what it takes to marry an SS man. That's
what we're talking about right now. So you show on
Bravo the Real Housewives of the Yeah oh boy, that
is a fucking so. The first thing she hasked to
do she had to get two recommendations from men who

(43:52):
knew her, and both of those men had to fill
out questionnaires to prove that she had what it took
to be an SS wife. She was rated by them
as being very reliable, very fond of children, com radley,
and not domineering and efficient. Irene also had to undergo
a body type analysis. I'm gonna yeah, boy OUTI here's

(44:13):
ears Marwell again. One section of the form called for
an inventory of ten physical characteristics with a list of
associated values in descending order of desirability. For instance, for
body type, the physician could choose muscular, athletic, plump, slim,
or puny, with the first clearly being the most positive.
For eye color, the following choices were available blue, gray, greenish,

(44:35):
light brown, and dark brown. These physical attributes, thought to
be expressions of the racial mixture that the person represented,
were observed and noted. In Irene's case, doctor Shorzweller awarded
her nine out of ten of the attributes with the
highest value, and only one hair form as the second
highest sleek, which was one step stepped down from straight,
but better than wavy, curly or crinkly. I love that.

(44:58):
It's like there's you're almost perfect. There's a little jew
in your hair. Yeah, I'm gonna have to dark you
a little bit for the jew and that hairs. Yeah,
but don't we have a straight iron cross that we
will use to straighten that little jew out. Let's get
the kinks out, so to speak. So the combination of
these features led Swartzweller to conclude that Irene was primarily

(45:21):
of the Nordic race, with some Dinaric influences. She was
found to be an excellent health and perhaps of key significance,
likely to be able to bear children. Noting her wide pelvis,
you have white pelvis. You have a very nice feat.
They relate little Binaric. But you know that's that's a

(45:42):
race for Nazis. No, don't worry about that, as we
know about that. Honestly, Irene, I have a searching for
a term, but then I pulled up my Nazi thesaurus,
and so of categorizations we've done here. Wow, we've want words.

(46:05):
So even with even all of this was not enough
for the SS. Irene also needed to prove that she
was racially pure, free of any Jewish influence for the
sake of SS paperwork. This meant providing information about her
family line that dated back to the Peace piece of
Westphalia in sixteen forty eight. This was the end of

(46:25):
the Thirty Years War, which killed millions of German people
and set in motion kind of want like one of
the more direct things that set in motion the series
of events that leads to the creation of the German States.
So that's why they pick it. The problem for Irene
came with the fact that in eighteen eighty six, her
grandfather had been born out of wedlock and his father
his father could not be verified. Now there was no

(46:47):
evidence of direct taint, so Irene was approved to Mary Mangola,
but because her ancestry could not be sufficiently confirmed, she
and Joseph were unable to add their names to the
Sippin book. Dare ss Honestly, that's unfair. I know it's fucked.
I gonna go out and say big yikes to that. Yeah,

(47:10):
so a Sippin' book if you guys aren't, aren't like
me and Matt because we're big sippin book guys. Yeah,
it's a book, a genealogical clan book that lists your ancestry.
Every SS member was supposed to carry one, but there's
a grand Sippin' book for the entire organization that lists
all of the family lines. Because Himler was kind of
planning on breeding a new nightly nobility more or less. Um. Yeah,

(47:33):
So this is like the highest honor in the SS,
and Mengola just doesn't quite meet the bar um, which
is sad, sad, honestly, it's just it's one of the bigger,
bigger tragedies of the era. Oh for sure. Absolutely. So
the good news is that Mangola had little time to
dwell on this because the nineteen thirties were coming to

(47:54):
an end. In events in the whider world. We're about
to turn him from a simple, bigoted piece of shit
into one of the greatest mass killers in medical history.
Yeah all right, so you're telling me this podcast is
gonna get worse. Oh yeah, Oh, it's about to get
a lot worse. So July of Nining is people to die.

(48:14):
I'm sorry, I know, no more Jarjar. I just I
know that the jar jar is coming to an end. Sure,
I'm trying to get Wow, there's gotta be like us.
I mean, it's probably pornographic, but there's gotta be jar
jar ss like art out there, dev and art account

(48:34):
out there. Yeah, I don't know why people are man
at me. Yeah. And it's both horny but also shows
like an unsettling degree of understanding of like minutia of
SS daily life. They've got their little sipping books on
jar Jar's got his blood group tattooed on a fucking bicep.
So In July of nineteen thirty eight, Frankfurt University awards

(48:57):
mangle A a full medical degree. He was now a
licensed MD as well as a PhD. He had a
promising career ahead of him in the field of being
a racist with a lab coat, but his ambition would
not let him simply continue to work as a research
scientist while his nation went to war. So he decided
to join the Waffen or Weapons SS. Now this is

(49:17):
the because the SS is a bunch of things, right,
But the Waffen SS is like the SS that also
fights alongside the Wehrmacht. Right there, they're a military organization.
This would become one of the war crimest units of
the war crimest army ever to war crime, and Mengelo
was dedicated to being a part of it. At the
end of nineteen thirty eight, he did three months of

(49:39):
basic training with the Wehrmacht to prepare himself for the
riggers ahead. He's spent about a year or so serving
as basically a National guardsman. And while he's kind of
doing this, he's continuing to work with Van Verschure on
publishing studies about ear lobe differences between the races and
the like. Just before the invasion of Poland, he wrote
a review for a book on detecting congenital heart defects.
In this review he lamented quote unfortunately the author did

(50:03):
not use subjects where the diagnosis could be verified by
an autopsy. He's been a lot of time talking about
how unfortunate is there weren't enough corpses to study to
like fully prove this guy's claims about congenital heart defects
and alas, he was about to have all of the
autopsy subjects he could ever want, but that it's going
to be. In Part three, Oh Boy, Part three. Yeah,

(50:27):
then just two more after this. Yeah, we're good. Oh
you know, it's just a breezy five hours. Yeah, you
know this is We're not that different from Dan Carlin podcast.
Here are we? We're getting increasingly similar. Um hey, you
know what, I'm gonna be honest, Hitler probably would have
done a behind the bastard style podcast with a very

(50:49):
different definition of bastards. Yeah. Well yeah, Kissinger still would
have been there, but for different reasons. They'll come back
to my six pots series on this jew who was
winning the train with me and took a chair that
I wanted to sit in. This next series is all
about different arts teachers who said I was made. Yeah,

(51:10):
it turns out they're made. For the next four weeks,
me and my guest Joe Rogan are going to talk
about Zivian Academy of Fine Arts. Chapter three. This next
one is a short story from New Yorker. Now, look,
it's a little horny, so Hitler. It's about and other

(51:35):
fetish women being stuck in zidryam. Oh boy, Matt what
Matt Matt Matt Man, Matt Matt What was the what
was the what was the first baffling Internet fetish pornography.
You ever learned about quicksand porn? Oh yeah, that's a
good one. Yeah yeah. I discovered that accidentally on YouTube.

(51:59):
I don't know how how I got there, but it
was just a video of a lady slowly sinking. Hell yeah.
And I was like, this is so weird. And then
after a while I was like, oh no, I'm horny
and uh so you know I'm in therapy. Now that's good.
That's good for me. About the quick stamp art is

(52:20):
there's not you know, there doesn't even need to be titties.
It's just the sinking. Yeah, yeah it is. It is
something else, um there is For me, it was there's
actually a similarity here. It was Roy Orbison clean rap
fetish point. It was like fetish stories about Roy Orbison
to your careers, because I think you can still find

(52:40):
the Roy Orbison clean rap fetish pornography online people, It's
not it's not Nazi sofie soly Roy Orberson. I never
got a good answer on that one. Can't you just
be cling wrapped and be any uh yeah yeah, don't
yuck their yum Matt, you know that's I would never

(53:02):
yuck a yum. Look, some people you know, sometimes you
feel like masturbating too orbits and wrapped in claim rap,
and sometimes you don't. I have so many plugibles. Check
out this American right coming to you. Listen to my

(53:25):
TV rewatch podcast, pot yourself a gun. We did The
Sopranos and now we are just ending season two of
The Wire. Uh and it is a lot of fun,
a lot great guests and uh, you know, even if
you haven't seen the show, it's fun. But mostly give
us five stars in review and say something about jar
Jar the Wire. Hitler would not have liked it. No,

(53:47):
you would not have m h ah. Behind the Bastards
is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from
cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,
or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
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