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May 16, 2024 68 mins

Robert and Margaret conclude the story of Helmut Kentler's pedophile foster program, and discuss how the German left was infiltrated and co-opted by pedophile activists to disastrous ends.

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh it's behind the Bastards still podcast, Bad People, Margaret Killjoy,
Margaret Helmet, Kintler, bad guy. You could call him a
kind of like Philosopher. If he was Greek, his name
would be Pedophilies. Robert, See, that was that was bad.

It was just in my head. We just got to
you got to excise this stuff. You just got to
exercise this stuff.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
You just exist to make guests look bad.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I really, I don't know what what else can you say?
Probably factual things.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
And not Robert is your guest soon on Cool People?
Did cool Stuff? Start thinking of your revenge.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Oh that's a good point.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah. As the producer of both podcasts, I will help you.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Well, just to give people a heads up. Robert did
an episode about the Ukrainian anarchist Maknow, but I'm going
to come in and tell him about the women who
also did all that stuff. Yeah, so that's the Yeah,
that's what they can can listen to. In a couple
of weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I'm going to do I'm going to do a lot
of that that borat my wife joke, but in my
best Ukrainian accent.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh oh, someone already that we had matt On uh ok, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well damn it all right, let's get back to the pedophiles.
So it's important to understand the intellectual environment in the
left in Germany in which all of this shit with
Kintler's horrible experimentation happened because Kintler's pedophile foster program, He's
focusing on these kids who are the most deprived and

like marginalized people in all of German society. Right, these
these homeless children, But those are not the only kids
being victimized or at least experiencing elements of victimization as
a result of this like pedophile infiltration of the German
left and this kind of conflation of sexual liberation with

like child sexual liberation. Yeah, so research on all of
this is Sketchy's not the right word, but it's like
it's it's it's messy because it's problematically hard to fund
any kind of research into pedophilia. But the common answer
you'll get is that somewhere around one percent of the population,
as like human population, are pedophiles. Right, it's kind of

probably the top the high number in.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Terms of their like sexual attraction pattern or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes, yes, so that's you know, a very small number
of people, but a lot of Berliners and a lot
of members of like the New Left in Germany are
in West Germany are playing a role in institutionalizing pedophilic
practices into childcare a lot more than that one percent.
And so these people are doing it not because they

themselves are attracted to children, but because they have bought
into a specific kind of sexual liberation ideology that guys
like Kinler are pushing. A good example of this is
the case of Commune two, a commune formed in the
summer of nineteen sixty seven by four men and three
women in an apartment in a street in Berlin. I
am not going to try and dissa it's geist Bruckstrassa.

Maybe I did that.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Okay, there's a little funny bee at the end, that's
all I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these four men
and three women form this commune with two children, a
three year old girl and a four year old boy.
In nineteen seventy one, a leftist magazine called kurz Book
published a full spread article about Commune two and particularly
its experimentation in child sexual liberation. In an argument in

an article for Der Spiegel, Jan Fleischauer wrote, quote for
the residents. The cohabitation experiment was an attempt to overcome
all bourgeoisie constraints, which included everything from separate bank accounts
and closed bathroom doors to fidelity within couples and the
development of feelings of shame. The two children were raised
by the group, which often meant no one paid much
attention to them. Because the adults had made it their

goal not just to tolerate, but in fact a firm
child sexuality, they were not satisfied to simply act as
passive observers. Kurz book seventeen that the issue of the
magazine contained a series of poster sized photos under the
headline love Play in the Children's Room. It depicted Nessim
and Grisha, both naked. The oversized images are of the

sort that one would expect to see in a magazine
for pedophiles today, certainly not in an influential publication of
the leftist Intelligensia. The caption reads, Grisha walks over to
the mirror, looks at her body, bends forward several times,
encircling her buttocks with her hands, and says, look, my vagina.
So what you're seeing here? This is not the same

thing that Kinler's doing. It's certainly not as problematic as
straight up saying we are handing poor kids to pedophiles because.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Who else will love them? But this is also deeply
problematic right now, Fleshower caught up with a former member
of the commune who talked to her about how these
kids had done. This former member told her that Nassim
the Boy felt horror when asked about his time at
the commune, but both he and Grecish seemed to have
grown up into functional adults. Neither of them really expressed

an interest in talking about their childhood, which is their right.
I get the feeling they have a lot of anger,
but not in the same way as the kids who
were placed with pedophiles, probably because while the behavior of
the adults in the commune engaged in was unacceptable, I
don't think it involved actual sex, right, Okay, it is
enough on that edge, and there are some people who

argued for it. It may have I can't say for certain, right,
this is a lot of these different experiments flirt at
the edge of that. The word flirt is unfortunately literally
it's really it's messy and will never know fully with
all of this stuff, right, Commune two, though, was not
an isolated experiment. It was a pilot project an anti

authoritarian living that was seen as so successful it was
followed by other private kindergartens. We talked about how all
of these a lot of them are people, of a
lot of them are like educators and academics are forming
these like private kindergartens, which are basically like communal kindergarteners
for groups of leftists with kids to like have their
little kids in. Right, and these are experiments and anti

authoritarian education. These are designed to break the kind of
patterns that doctor Schreber and horror and like the Nazis
had put that we talked about in the first episodes
of this Right, and there.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
Are people who've done this really well. They just don't
sleep with the children.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
And by the way, not all of these kinder lodens
are places where children are slept with, right, I don't
think most of them were. But this is not a
tiny chunk of them either. We're not even slept with
where kids where child's sexual liberation is a topic of
like focus for the parents. Right, Okay, that's more accurate
to say what we're talking about. This is not a
case of they're talking. I'm just going to get into

the story. This is really messy and complicated and there's
a lot to discuss. So these centers, called kinder Lootens
were essentially less extreme than the commune. They involved groups

of parents collaborating and creating a learning space for groups
of kids. These were not all the same, but in
many cases, weird ideas about sex sed were mixed with
reasonable ideas for experimental childcare attempts to break the notably
problematic authoritarian patterns in parenting that had been a part
of the Nazi era right that had helped feed into

it parents. One of the things that people will do
is like kid parents would take kids to protests, They
would engage children with political education not seen in normal schools.
The idea was, you should be able to talk with
kids about real issues in the world the way you
would with an adult, not necessarily hiding this stuff from them.

Speaker 3 (08:00):

Speaker 2 (08:01):
The downside of that is that there was also this
idea that, well, if we're going to treat kids like
adults in one way, right, yeah. Alexander Schuller, an influential
figure in the kinder laden movement, claims that sex ed
was the topic most discussed when parents would debate as
to how they should make structure these things from Der

Spiegel quote in nineteen sixty nine, Schuller, a sociologist, was
one of the founders of a kinder Lauden in Berlin's
Wilmersdorf neighborhood. Like Schuller, the other parents were academics, journalists
or university employees. A decided the upper middle class lot.
Schuller's two sons, four and five years old at the time,
grew up without the customary rules and punishments of a
government run day care facility, but the adults were soon

divided over the issue of sex. Some were determined to
encourage their children to show when touch their genitalia, while
the others were horrified by the idea. It was never
addressed quite that directly, but it was clear that in
the end, sex with two female teachers was considered. Says Schuller,
I found it incredibly difficult to take a stance. I
felt that what we were trying to do was fundamentally correct,
but when it came to this issue, I thought this

is crazy, this just isn't right. But then I felt
ashamed of thinking that way. I think many were in
the same position.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's that justification for it on a core level. Yeah,
the main thing is just don't do that, don't abuse people, yes,
and then yeah, especially child Then it's when.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
You start centering ideology, Yeah, before centering how you treat people.
That not just this, but all problems start, right, And
it takes a full year of debate. But thankfully in
this case, the parents who are like, of course they
shouldn't sleep with the teachers did win. There was no
sex in this kinder Loten. I get the feeling that

in this case the parents who were talking about like
who were suggesting effectively like sexually assaulted, like that they
were ideologically cooked, right, that they felt like this was
the most radical thing they could do and that that
would make them better leftists. I say this because it
doesn't sound like from Schuler's recollections, the teachers wanted to
molest these kids, right, or that the parent who suggested

it wanted to watch or participate. They just felt kind
of vaguely that the experience would help craft more anti
authoritarian youth. It is madness, right.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, And Ye're right about how it's like it's been
injected by pedophiles into this movement, and then everyone's like, fuck,
do we have to become pedophiles? And then people are like, no, no.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Of course we don't. And thankfully, in Shuler's case, the
people who are like no, of course not do win right. Yeah,
And again somewhere in the sheet in that scene, in
the broader Kinderlodden scene, there are real pedophiles consciously trying
to craft a world where they can act with impunity.
An influential educational tool at the time was the Handbook
for Positive Child and Doctrination, which is a bad title

for a book. This is a nineteen sixty eight tract
that claimed to help parents quote create a new person
and argued children can learn to appreciate eroticism and sexual
intercourse long before they are capable of understanding how a
child is conceived. It is valuable for children to cuddle
with adults. It is no less valuable for sexual intercourse
to occur during cuddling. And this is part of why

I grounded these episodes by talking about how there was
for generations and statitude that like, you do not make
any contact with your children other than what is the
minimal necessary to maintain their surviving right and the reaction
to that goes in an equally insane direction. Right, Like

it's not just well, of course parents should like hold
their kids and express physical affection, but like it's fine
of sex accurs, right, it's this, it's this rubber band
effect when you go in that's insane a direction. It's
like you should lock children alone in a room for
the first day of their life and never so much
as like hug them. When you break that, you're going

to wind up in an equally damaging place.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
And just one of the million reasons is so heartbreaking
is that it's like it destroys the safety. Yeah, the
whole point of that affection from a parent's arming. I'm
trying to get a super emotional about the whole point
of that emotion from the parent should be a non
sexual safety, yeah, you know, and like showing what care

and love are divorced, like separate and safe from that
kind of It's so I know everyone listening knows it's evil,
but it's.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Just it's this vile conflation of like children should have
adults with whom they have a safe kind of intimacy
that allows them to explore the world, and then twisting
that into children should be exploring their bodies with adults,
which they should not be, right right, Like, it's this conflation. No, No,

children need to have like a healthy intimate relationship with
their parents or with the adults who are their caregives,
because that is how you have the security that allows
you to go out into the world and meet it. Right. Yeah, Yeah,
And obviously I think there's no way that handbook wasn't
written by a pedophile trying to provide cover for himself

and others like him it. But a lot of these
very dumb parents did not catch that, and worse, awkwardly
tried to live up to this supposedly revolutionary standard. Some
leftist thinkers, like Monica Seyffert, a sociologist, were disturbed when
the children in her kinder laden did not attempt to
have sex with the adults. She concluded the inhibitions and

insecurities of the adults had likely forced those children to
suppress their sexual curiosity. She saw this as a failure.
And what's happening here is that you have in a
lot of these kids. This is why I say most
of these these people are not pedophiles who have bought
into this cooked shit because you have these attitudes that like, well,
these kids should feel confident sexually experimenting with adults, and

it doesn't happen because that's not natural, right, because the
adults don't want it, and neither do the kids. And
the most cooked of these intellectuals, like Seaford are like, well,
clearly we have failed.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the equation that someone
wrote and it's not happening in real life. Therefore real
life is wrong.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, Like this is not it's not naturally.
This is not a thing that happens between adults and children.
It is a thing that has to be forced, which
is proven in fact by this reaction, by how disappointed
a lot of these these these academics and intellectuals are. Unfortunately,
some of the parents were equally disappointed and took steps

to stimulate their children. Again, these are still mostly these
are not mostly pedophile, so this behavior they're not like
actually abusing the kids physically, but instead they tell a
lot of weird sex jokes, and they make a point
to use words like cock and vagina constantly in front
of kids. Schuller, who is like, this is kind of
how Schuler's kinder laden. They were like, well, we won't

have children molest students, but instead we'll use sexual terminology
around them a lot and tell weird jokes that make
them uncomfortable. Shuler, looking back on this decades later, claims
his kids like, overall thought the kinder laden was a
good experience, but quote, they thought the constant chatter about
sex was horrible because that's a normal way for children
to feel about adults talking about that this way, right, well.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
And actually and pointing out that everything else like yeah,
it was injected into this otherwise really interesting and radical
idea that was Yeah, otherwise good with this.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
There's a clear problem in pedagogy in our society. Yeah, yeah,
and it is interesting that like, yeah, the kids were like, well,
the stuff about like you know, go into protests, learning
about politics, having kind of like non authoritarian learning structure
was great. I wish there hadn't been so many weird
dick jokes. That was kind of bad. And I think
Shuller's the experience of Schuler's kids does thankfully represent a

majority of the kids exposed to this system, which is
more what the fuck were our parents thinking than like
dev stating trauma, Right, Yeah, that is the norm is like, boy,
that was weird. They were fucking cooked, something was fucked
up in their heads. Like Because most of these kids
were not molested, right, But between Schuler's kids and Ulrich,

who is the boy who Kinler gave to a pedophile,
there were a lot of children who still did suffer
different degrees of abuse. Right, not as severe as like
a kid being fostered with a child molester, but on
that spectrum.

Speaker 3 (16:28):

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Sophie Dannenberg was one of these children. Her parents were
members of the German Communist Party, and they sent her
to a kinderladden in Geesen. As an adult, she interviewed
her mother and other people from the kinderladen and wrote
about their experiences in a novel with the excellent title
The Pale Heart of the Revolution. Fly Shower writes of
this book, the material she used includes an account of

a parent's evening where one of the mothers said that
she stripped naked in front of her sons so that
he could inspect her. In the process, the woman spread
her legs to expose her private parts for his inspection.
The game ended when the boy stuck a pencil into
his mother's vagina. The parents also spent a long time
discussing whether it was a good idea to have sex
with their own children so as to demonstrate the naturalness
of sexual intercourse. Although the people Danenberg interview did not

recall any instances of physical advances, they did describe softer
forms of sexual assault, So there's pushy demands on children
to show their naked bodies. In the novel, which is
based on Dannenberg's research, the eight year old character Simone
is told to strip in front of several adults and
other children. Why do you want to hide yourself, the
mother says, to the amusement of people standing around. When

the child instinctively holds a pillow in front of her genitalia,
it's a beautiful thing you have there, Show it to us.
And yeah. Abuse is the closest app term to describe
this totally. It doesn't quite describe how weird it is, right,
but it's accurate enough. One author who studied this period,

cited in der Spiegel's states that objectively speaking, this behavior
was child abuse, but writes kind of confusingly, subjectively it wasn't.
And that's a weird statement. One I don't really fully
one I don't really agree with, but I want to
continue fly Showers quote describing it, right, Okay, as outlandish
as it seems in retrospect, the parents apparently had the
welfare of the children in mind, not their own. For

the adherence to the new movement, the child did not
serve as a sex object to provide the adults with
a means of satisfying their sexual urges. This differentiates politically
motivated abuse from pedophilia, and that's an interesting concept, politically
motivated child abuse, right.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
It's also not as much behind closed doors, right, and
so we actually probably weirdly know more about it than
like the Catholic Church sex abuse or yes.

Speaker 2 (18:47):

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Mother Winter. Yeah, yeah, it makes me angry because that's
a good name for a weird old you know, mother.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, it's very a lot of this. It's interesting to
me kind of making that distinction that, like, well, because
what you get with a lot of is these parents
who are abusing their kids don't like what they're doing,
are personally uncomfortable with it, and feel bad that they
don't feel better about doing it.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, because and they're like, oh, it's because I'm bourgeois.
But the next generation be true. This yeah, fuck, cooked
is the right word, Cooked is.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
The right wall. This is where this is a problem.
You get all over the fucking map when it comes
to radical polic The Nazis were obviously trying to create
a new kind of man, right, They write about that constantly.
There was also this concept of the new Soviet man, right, Yeah,
And there's often left and right in radical politics, this
idea that like, in order to make the world that

is possible, the better world that's possible, we have to
remake people. And I kind of think you're always doomed
and wrong if that's your goal, because people don't need
to be remade. You have to meet people where they
are and make their lives and thus the world better.
And if you if your goal is to like change
what people, if you think that's what you're doing, there's

so much evil that will be justified as part of
that process, no matter how good your goals are, right,
because it's a bad thing to what to do?

Speaker 3 (20:22):
I know, And it's like, it's still important to improve pedagogy,
it's still important to raise kids less authoritarianly and so
that they're more inoculated against tars. But like, but yeah,
not to it's like it's the difficult puts the wheat
into the cold to be like it'll become cold tolerant

all seeds.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's it's the difference between saying, wow, for generations, parents
wouldn't even hug their kids and we wound up as Nazis.
We should probably like it. We were abusing our kids
for generations, and we should find ways to raise them
that are less abusive. Instead, it's they may we need
to remake our children so that they can almost so

that they can like remedy the sins of the past.
It's which are two different things. Saying that, like, we
should not abuse kids the way that we were is
different from saying we need to make different people, right,
we need to be producing different kinds of people like you.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
No, that's actually really interesting because it's like we're always
oh gen Z is gonna save us, and now it's
already like, oh jen A is that finally? Yeah, the
alphas have got it. Yeah, we woke you know generation.
And it's a little bit like what's getting ourselves off
the hook? Yeah, Like, yeah, I objectively have fewer ears

left ahead of me probably, but then you know, so
maybe it's more on me than it is on the
fucking youth.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah. Yeah, and maybe it's on people to figure out
how to make the world better and that that's a
better place to start than making people better. Yes, right,
because if your goal is to make people better, yeah,
you're usually going to do something terrible. You're usually going
to do something terrible if your goal is to make
people better rather than help people. Right, that's the distinction.

I want to help people, I want to make people better.
One of those is fine. The other leads to this shit,
you know. So anyway, when I think of politically motivated
child abuse, I do think back to that book To
Train Up a Child. No, it's just that like that. Yeah,
when I think of politically motivated child abuse, I think
of the Washington State Highway Patrol. No, not quite yet,

but it is. I've always considered that book to Train
Up a Child, which is like, if you look to
the duggers, you know, the IBLP thes like hard right
wing Christian organizations, it's their textbook for how to beat
your children to make them better. Okay, I do kind
of wonder I always just saw that as simple child abuse.
Is it more accurate to describe that as politically motivated
child abuse. I don't know, it's a bigger topic.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Oh yeah, because maybe they don't even know because kid
because you're angry, or even hitting your kid because oh crap,
my kid is to run out into the street and
I can't think of anything else to do.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
This is all my only tool I have in my head. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
Right, So those are both motivated by something different. But yeah,
no versus like I am neglectful of my duty as
a father unless I solemnly and sadly hit my child
with a rod. And oh that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
And I know kids who were like Quiver Fool, who
were raised in the religious right, who is like, yeah,
that's part of what broke us out is my parents
didn't like doing that, didn't like the discipline. And so
I do think it's actually useful to look at a
lot of the child abuse that does occur on the
right through that this is politically motivated child abuse.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
Lens right.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
I actually think that might be really important. It didn't
really occur to me until I started reading about these
weird German leftists and their ideas of like sex liberation.
But yeah, anyway, one of the most famous abusers within
this system this like kinder lodden system, this sort of
like shit that's coming out of the German left inist period.
Was Daniel Kohne Benditt, a Green Party politician who was

a student leader during in May of nineteen sixty eight
protest in France and was co president of the European Greens,
European Free Alliance and the EU Parliament. He was a
critic of Stalinism and an advocate of libertarian socialism. And
part of why I'm bringing him up is we've talked
about the communists who we are cooked, and it is
not just the communists.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
I was so excited for. I wasn't surprised.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Plenty of plenty of anarchists have this kind of like
fucking ideological cookedness to them. In nineteen seventy five, Daniel
wrote an autobiographical book that described his experience as a
kinderloden teacher. On several occasions, he claimed children opened his
fly and stroked his penis. Quote. I was usually quite

taken aback. My reactions varied depending on the circumstances. Now,
I was not sure whether to classify him as is
this a politically motivated abuser or just a pedophile? Until
I read this transcript of a recording that serviced in
twenty thirteen, and this is Daniel talking at nine in
the morning. I joined my eight little toddlers between the
ages of sixteen months and two years. I wash their butts,

I tickle them, they tickle me, and we cuddle. You know,
a child's sexuality is a fantastic thing. You have to
be honest and sincere. With the very young kids, it
isn't the same as it is with the four to
six year old kids. When a little five year old
girl starts undressing, it's great because it's a game. It's
an incredibly erotic game. Oh my god, that's a pedophile.
That's a pedophile. That's just the sun. Yeah, that's just

a straight up pedophile.

Speaker 3 (25:24):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
When this blew up, Daniel claimed that what he had
been writing was just fiction meant to provoke people. Oh okay, sure, okay,
this is all tight into like why the part of
why it's not I'm not gonna say it's a major part,
but it's not an insignificant part of like the rise
of groups like AfD in Germany right now, because a
lot of this shit came out very recently and has

like blown up support for some of these left wing
parties like this has done damage recently and provided ammunition
to the right in Germany recently. Fair because people are
furious when they learned out that this was right.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, it's fair.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Pedophiles who abuse children are predators, and predators inherently seek
to escalate their behavior. As the seventies turned into the eighties,
some of these pedophiles, who had been camouflaging themselves as
childcare reform activists, decided to make a grand play for acceptance.
Following in the wake of the gay rights movements, Organizations
like the Indian Commune in Nuremberg sought to characterize pedophilia

as a sexual orientation that deserved to be treated with respect. Now,
in true German fashion, the Indian Commune with both an
act of cultural appropriation and mind numbing abuse Germans. We've
talked with this in our very first episodes on Karl May.
There's this weird obsession with Native Americans that is based
entirely in almost entirely in the fiction of a guy

who never went to America and just lied about Native Americans. Yeah,
and it influenced the Nazis. Loved like Hitler was a
huge like like was this kind of weird Native American
stand where he was not actually standing any real history
like what this German altim, but he thought he was.
And there's still a lot of weirdness around Native Americans
in German society today. This is one example of it, right.

The Indian Commune is a group of adults and children
who painted each other up like Native Americans are, like
their conception of Native Americans, and showed up at that
year's Green Party convention to argue in favor of free
sex for adults and children. Almost unbelievably, the Greens gave
them a hearing more than that. In nineteen eighty five,

the Green State Organization in Westphalia argued that nonviolent sexual
contact between adults and children should be decriminalized. Another state
Green Party published a position paper making the same argument,
until public protests forced them to remove it. Again, we're
in the eighties by now, so there's pushback to this.
This movement had a name, the pedo sexual movement, and

it succeeded for a while because a lot of non
pedophiles bought their bullshit, But the driving force behind it
was always highly placed, influential peederists in the Green Party.
One of these pedophiles was Hermann Mehr, a leader in
the party who lived on a commune that openly advertised
engaging in pedophilia. One victim later told the magazine Develt

that mer abused him, along with quote about ten men,
many of whom were visitors to the commune, who seemed
to have shown up for that purpose. Right, this is
a place you can like, Yeah, it's so easy, so vile.
Another pedophile leader of the pedo sexual movement was Peter Schult,
an anarchist journalist who described himself as a pederist and

was convicted of bringing a girl into his house to
abuse in nineteen seventy six. Schult denied the allegations and
claimed that he was being punished for his sexuality and
political organizing. He attracted a great deal of support, and
in nineteen seventy seven he wrote an angry pamphlet attacking
anarchists who hadn't supported him. He described them as preaching
anarchy while being offended at the sight of lived anarchy.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
In his words, I am glad that there were enough
anarchists that at him that he had to write that
he had to write that's what I'm That's the only
thing I'm procured any of this story is that people
were like, what the book it is.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
It's one of those things where like Schult denied the
allegations that he had molested a girl in part because
he was molesting boys and maybe those specific allegations were
wrong about molesting boys. Yeah, yeah, Like Kindler, Shultz defended
his molestation of boys by claiming he was just helping runaways.

And here is what gay historian Hubert Kennedy wrote in
schultz obituary. Peter found and took homb the homeless, or
they found him in state institutions. His address was passed
from one boy to another as a place where runaways
could find temporary shelter. His address was also well known
to the authorities, whose authority the anarchist Peter refused to recognize,
and he was sent to prison numerous times on charges

of drug possession and seducing minors. A number of left
wing publications were unfortunately woefully open to the arguments of
Peter's actual advocates. Tag Zeitongue, a an all weekly publication,
published interviews with pedophiles where they discussed how wonderful their
sex with little boys was when g d Hinsel, co

founder of the paper, argued that they should not be
promoting pedophilia. She was described as being a prude and
told quote, there's no such thing as censorship in the
tag Zeitungue, Like basically, we don't censor people from talking
about molestic children.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
This is a problem in American left too. I'm not
sure if you're gonna get into this during the same
time period.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
You know, we're not enough. Again, when we talked about Thornleigh,
we did, and we've talked on other shows about an
influential anarchist now, oh god, what's his fucking name, the.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
Taz guy, Peter lamborn Wilson Peter.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Lamborn Wilson hackeen Bay, who was also may not have
actually I don't know if you ever like actually molested anyone,
but argued in favor of it.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah, I'm undern inversion of him arguing in favor because
it was it was, Yeah, it was in vogue. And
it's interesting because it's during this like dead period of organizing.
I mean, there is organizing happening, but like by and large,
the anti thoritarian left is like not doing a lot
during the seventies and eighties, because well, it just was
going through a slum, you know, Yeah, and so the

only people around, I mean, they're not the only people around.
There are many people who were against.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
This all along, yes, and we're about to talk about those.
Great So there are leftists in Germany who speak out
against this real, big problem. One of them is Gunter Amant,
a social scientist who argued accurately there is no equitable
sexuality between children and adults. Another person on around.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Violent sexuality between children.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
All it's inherently violent for an adult to rape a kid.

Speaker 3 (31:40):

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Alice Schwarzer, who founded a women's magazine, also lambassid acceptance
of pedophilia on the left. From Der Schpiegel quote, Amant
recalls how he was disparaged as a reactionary in flyers
and articles. There was an outright campaign against alas in
me at the time. He says, it wasn't until the
mid nineteen nineties that this horrific episode came to an end.
In nineteen ninety four, the pedos appearing in Tagzitung for

the last time, and even that publication recognized that intercourse
with little boys was no different than with little girls who,
thanks to the women's movement, have long been deemed worthy
of protection. And that's a worthwhile note on this is
that when we talk about these people supporting sexual contact
with kids from adults, a lot of them in the
kinder Looten movement, it's this broader like, well, we just

need to be more open to kids' sexuality, for both
boys and girls when it comes to like pairing abused
children with pedophiles, you know, both officially through the state
has happened with Kintler and kind of unofficially like that
anarchist we talked about, did it's all little boys, because
there's a broader understanding that you like, the feminist movement

has already pushed through this understanding that that's not acceptable
to do with little girls, and it took later for boys, right,
And some of this is wrapped up in a lot
of really complicated shit about the suppression of male homosexuals
in Germany and throughout the West, and how common relationships
between much older and much younger men. You know, were like,

this is a messy, messy topic, right, Yeah, but it
is kind of worth noting that, like part of what
brings this to an end is when folks start arguing that,
like we already agree it is wronged to molest little girls,
why are we treating boys differently?

Speaker 1 (33:26):

Speaker 2 (33:27):
It does come out of this like feminist movement, a
lot of the backlash to this that finally succeeds in
bringing it into it.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Could you imagine that? That's like you're a feminist during
this time, and that's what you have to waste.

Speaker 4 (33:37):

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Do I really have to argue this? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah, it's oh boy. Speaking of arguing, Margaret, you know
what I love to argue in favor.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Of commercial enterprise.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
That's right, that's right. In this case, it's a welcome
relief from talking about this German pilot. And we're back.
And speaking of back, let's get back to the story
of doctor Helmut Kinler and his plan to pair foster

kids with pedophiles. This continued all through the nineteen eighties,
even after the pedo sexual movement faded in popularity thanks
to belated resistance from within the left. The best documented
victim of Kintler's specific program was a boy named Marco.
In nineteen eighty eight. Marco was crossing the street alone
when he was hit by a car. This was a
minor incident. He was not severely injured, thankfully, but his

injury the fact that he was not attended right drew
the attention of a local youth wealth fare office, which
was also run by the Berlin government. From the New
Yorker quote, Caseworkers at the office observed that Marco's mother
seemed unable to give him the necessary emotional attention. She
worked at a sausage stand and was struggling to manage
parenthood on her own. Marco's father, a Palestinian refugee, had

divorced her. She sent Marco and his older brother to
daycare in dirty clothes and left them there for eleven hours.
Caseworkers recommended that Marco be placed in a foster home
with a family like atmosphere. One described him as an
attractive boy who was wild but very easy to influence.
Hinkel a forty seven year old single man who supplemented
his income as a foster father by repairing jukeboxes and

other electronics. Marco was Hinkle's eighth foster son in sixteen years.
When Hinkel began fostering children in nineteen seventy three, a
teacher noted that he was always looking for contact with
boys Hinkel specifically. Now again this is part of this
is a result of the program that Kintler has instituted.
Kinler is in content with Hinkel. Marco has two parents,

both of them are in his life. They're separated, but
his dad, the Palestinian refugee, is in his life, and
so is his mom. They are both just poor and
so as a result, they're scrambling to make enough money
to get by, which means they are there are times
when this kid is not watched as much as would
be ideal. Right, the state takes him away from them

for that, probably in part because there's a lot of
writing about how like once they see his dad, they're like, well,
we have to keep him away from this dangerous Muslim, right,
like this authoritarian influence. Right, it's really really fucked up.
So people in the senate and educational offices within the
Berlin City government were well aware that Hinkel was a

pedophile adopting boys, eight boys by the time he fosters Marco. Right,
they don't stop any of this. He's again, this is
when I talk about guys like Kittler being like, well,
some kids are in such desperate straits that being with
a pedophile is best for them. This is what they mean. Well,
this kid's mom and dad are separated, and they're not
people like us. They're not warm, so it must be

better for him to be raped repeatedly, right, That is
the calculation they're making. In nineteen eighty nine, a caseworker
wrote that Hinkel was in a quote homosexual relationship with
one of his foster sons, possibly Marco, a prosecutor. And again,
this is not a relationship. I'm not calling it. That
is what the caseworker calls it. In nineteen eighty nine,

a prosecutor did call for an investigation, but Helmut Kintler,
who described himself as Hinkel's permanent advisor and also called
Hinkel regularly to talk politics, intervened. Kintler described himself to
this prosecutor as the quote nation's chief authority on questions
of sexual education, and at this point he was famous.

He is regularly interviewed in the news. He is consulted
by political leaders. He is a prominent and respected academic.
He sends a letter on university letterhead to this prosecutor,
issuing an expert opinion on Henkel, saying I've got to
know this guy well through a research project we're both
engaged in. Hinkel is a wonderful parent, and he attacks
the wild interpretations of this psychologist who had accused him

of pederasty. The threats of an investmentation went away. Several
times a year, Hinkle would drive to see Kinler at
the school where he taught. Kentler would study the children
and take notes. He was happy enough with Hinkele that
he kept a ready stream of boys heading into the
pedophiles home. After Marco had been there eighteen months, he
was joined by a kid named Spinn, who had been

found at age seven begging for money in a subway station.
The Youth Welfare office noted that since he'd likely never
experienced a positive parent child relationship, he was a good
candidate for Kinler's program.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
Because he's not getting that one now.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
So the solutions to all both of these kids problems.
To the extent that Mark had a problem, the solution was, well, yeah,
there should have been some sort of social welfare net
to ensure that his mom didn't have to work these
long shifts at the sausage factory so that she had
more time for her kids. There should be like state
funded daycare and stuff. You know, Yeah, there should be
programs the same thing with the Oh there's a homeless

kid begging for money, you know what we should do?
Get him off the street and not into a pedophiles house. Right, Like,
these are not complex problems. We're not talking about like
intractable issues of geopolitics. Yeah, anyway, I'm going to quote
again from The New Yorker. The two boys took on
different roles in their new family. Spinn was the good son,
docilen loving. Marco was more defiant. But at night, when

Hinkle came into his room asking to cuddle or waiting
for him while he brushed his teeth before bed, he
had to comply. I just accepted it out of loyalty
because I didn't know anything else. Marco told me. I
didn't think what was happening was good, but I thought
it was normal. I thought of it a little bit
like food. People have different tastes in food, the way
some people have different tastes and sexuality. If Spinn's bedroom

door was open and he wasn't there, Marco knew what
was happening, but the two boys never talked about what
Hankle did to them. It was an absolutely taboo subject.
Marco said. One day, Marco took a knife from the
kitchen and slept with it under his pillow. When Hinkle
approached his bed and discovered the blade, he withdrew quickly
and he called Helmut Kentler, and he then handed the

phone to Marco. Kentler asked him why he brought the
knife into his bed, and Marco said, there's a devil
behind my wall. Kindler had a call me grandfatherly presence.
He assured Marco that there was no such thing as devils,
and Marco agreed to surrender the knife. Never give up
your knife, kids, never ever up your fucking knife.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Well, and it's interesting because it compares to how we
talked about demons in her head. Yeah, last week's episodes.
You know, like there's ways that people are going to
conceptualize the abuse that they're suffering.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
It's something almost so awful you have to turn it
into a metaphor because ye can't even like, you can't
even look at it directly, even though it's happening to you.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah, I got really excited for where that story. I know,
I know, I got its heartbreaking, I am.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
It would be great if this ended with a pedophile
being stabbed to death. But it does not I know.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
And then it's like and also like most of the
time it's like then you're like you want that kid
to have to done that, And then you're like, life
isn't going to get better.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
This is maybe bad stuff. I will say, this is
a happy ending. This is a legit mark story has
a legitimately wonderful ending. So that is good. I want
to promise you that now bad stuff to get through. Yeah,
So Marco still has a family. He has a mother
and father. They visit sometimes again they're separated, but like

they visit both separately and together, and they try to
get him back. But Henkel has all the power. He
would cancel visits at will minutes before they were set
to begin, or he would end them early, often claiming
that Marco's mother was disruptive to Marco's emotional state. The
stress and drama Hankel created around these visits caused Marco
to wet his bed and fail to focus at school,

and Kentler used this as an excuse to end the
visits entirely, telling the welfare office that Marco's educational successes
are ruined by seeing his mom. Marco's Palestinian father was
not allowed to visit at all because Henkel told authorities
that Marco said he'd been beaten by his father. We
have no I I think Marco has said that this
was not true, but likes he is backing up anything

Hinkel says because Hinkel is his caregiver, and as he states,
I didn't know I could disagree with him about stuff
right now. There are times that authorities saw through these lies.
One of the mandated child therapists that Marco saw described
Henkel as holding the boy prisoner during their sessions. Several
different mandated therapists complained, but anytime stuff started to move

in a way where like maybe the kids would be
taken away from Hankel, Kintler would swoop in. He told
the Youth Welfare office they were not qualified to assess
a child who was as damaged as Marco. If an
assessment was needed, only Kintler was established enough to do it. Yeah, right,
right exactly. He acknowledged that Hinkel could appear harsh and hurtful,

but this was not so. Quote. I ask you to
consider that a man who deals with such seriously damaged
children is not a simple person. What mister Hinkel needs
from the authorities is trust and protection. It is the
cop argument. What they're dealing with is so dangerous and
vile that they have to use extreme measures, and we can't.
We're not qualified to question them, right it is anytime

you hear that logic, it means someone is doing something terrible. Yeah,
Marco's parents spent years trying to get him back. This
is not something he realizes as an adult. Oh my god,
I was not abandoned. My parents fought for me. These
two poor people, one of whom is a Palestinian refugee,
were basically ranged against the entire power of the city

government of Berlin, which was being effectively wielded by this
weird pedophile philosopher against them. You know, there is a
court case. Henkel coaches Marco to tell the judge that
he wanted to stay with his foster father, who he
called Papa. Marco claims, I didn't really know what was
going on. I did not understand that my parents were
fighting to have a connection to me. I thought that

they had basically abandoned me, and I was scared of
angering Henkel and also traumatized from the near knightly abuse. Right,
there was one bright spot in his childhood, which is
that it's a weird one. It's that this again pedophile
who is fostering him gets a third foster son. This
foster son is a disabled little boy named Marcel. Now,

the fact that Hankel, the pedophile, sought to take possession
of a boy who could not walk or talk is
horrifying in ways that I cannot describe and will not
labor on. But Marco and Sfinn came to love Marcel
and treat him as their own blood. They took care
of this boy like because he was their brother from
the New Yorker. Marco and s Finn became Kramer's caretakers,

feeding him strawberry flavored milk with a spoon and removing
mucus from his lungs with a suction hose. When they
went to Hankel's house in Brandenburg, west of Berlin, Marco
pushed Kramer for hours in a tire swing. Kramer was
the first person in years for whom Marco had felt love. Now, yeah,
like the fact that these both of these kids being

so profoundly abandoned and abused. When they see this disabled
boy who is in desperate need of not just medical care,
but attention. Yeah, provide. It is a wonderful bit of
light in this right. Yeah. Marco struggles with school obviously,

and part of this is because Hinkel is encouraging him
to neglect his studies and misbehave right, because the worse
Marco does in school, the more they have an excuse.
They switch schools every year, which means that no adults
get to spend enough time around Marco to realize what
is going on. Hinkel is a very effective and methodical abuser,
and that's what's going on here. His tactics work until

Marco goes through puberty and starts lifting weights. One night,
when Henkel came to molest him, Marco fought back, not
even a lot, but that spelled the end of him
being molested forever. Hinkel, of course, still responds aggressively to
this in his own way. He would lock the kitchen
at night. He justified it by to Kintler by claiming
that Marco was greedy. You know, he would fight back,

but he he did not keep molesting Marco, right because
he's afraid of him. Because he was afraid of him. Now,
now here's where things get complicated. When Marco turns eighteen,
you might expect him to have gotten the hell out
of the house, but he doesn't. He lives with Henkel
for three more years. He says part of this is
that he didn't even consider leaving to be possible. Quote. Yeah,

it's very hard to describe. But I was never raised
to think critically about anything. I had an empty mind.
Those are his words. He says this. But there is
a very clear reason he stayed with Henkel, which is
that his beloved adopted brother is living there too. Marcel
is there. Marco willingly stays in the house of his
abuser for three years so that he can continue to

be a caregiver to his brother. This only ends when
Marcel dies after a forty eight hour flew. Marco says
he always checked on his brother multiple times throughout the
night to make sure he was breathing, so he noticed
very quickly that something was wrong. He tried to get
Hankle to call for an ambulance, but hankeld not when
any of the boys going to doctors, and so Marcel

died while Marco watched. Quote I was looking into his
eyes when he died. Now this does not prompt an
investigation into Hankel. Marcel was an abandoned disabled child and
was thus of less than no value to the Youth
Welfare office. His file simply noted call from mister Hankel,
who said Marcel died unexpectedly last night. Previously there were

no signs of an infection. The following note says that Hankel,
now sixty, wanted to adopt another boy. So talking about
how long this goes? Marcel dies in two thousand and one,
Kentler's program experiment is still going into the twenty first century.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yeah, two thousand and one felt very yep. Yeah, that's
too recent.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Kinler is a respected figure at this moment. This only
starts to change when an academic, Teresa Netwig, began researching
and writing about Kintler for her thesis. She had struggled
to find good information on this pedophile foster program and
noticed that most of the files were missing from the
city archives because they had been deliberately removed. Kinler died

in two thousand and eight, but even after that point
he had loyal friends still in government and academia, and
they fought back against her attempts to expose him. Eventually,
her university contract was canceled, and she blames this on
the fact that she chose to research Kentler. She eventually
wrote a book on the man, which revealed that he
was not just some wild eyed academic who bought into
bogus science. He was also a pedophile. Kintler, a single man,

adopted three sons and fostered several more children. Two of
his foster sons have accused him of sexual abuse. They
initially went to Karen Desrat, an author and researcher, who
quote owed a lot to Kintler and thus referred the
boys to another therapist rather than do anything when they
came out to her. She claims the boys themselves wanted

the abuse kept quiet because they quote didn't want to
lose the positives of Kinler's care, that they had enough
to eat and that they were taken care of in
things like that. I'm going to read another quote from
that New Yorker article about kind of the collapse of
Kentler's reputation. Gunter Schmidt, a former president of the International
Academy of Sex Research, which attracts the field's leading researchers,

was friends with Kinler for more than twenty years. I
honestly had respect for it, he told Nitwig of the experiment,
because I thought, these are really young people who are
in the worst situation. They probably have a long history
at home, they had miserable childhoods, and someone is looking
after them. And if Kinler is there, it'll be fine,
he added, And the Berlin Senate is also there. When
Kentler was fifty seven, he wrote Schmid a letter explaining

why he was aging happily rather than becoming lonely and resigned.
He and his twenty six year old son were quote
part of a very fulfilling love story that had lasted
thirteen years and still felt fresh. To understand his state
of mind, Kentler wrote his friends should know his secret.
Kinler seems to have reappraised his belief that pedophiles were
good caregivers to abandoned children in nineteen ninety one, after

that adopted son that he had bragged about having a
good relationship with committed suicide. Now it's unclear to me
if Kinler, and this is still a bit of a
mystery me is he was he How much of this
was like he's in this ideological space, and how much
of this is he was always a pedophile. I really
don't know with Kinler because he claims he claims to

have recognized that there was like he had made errors
in his beliefs around this stuff after his adopted son
commit and abuse victim commits suicide. He would later claim
that during the nineties, he reads this essay by a
Hungarian psychoanalyst, Sandor Farinsky, that changed his mind on pedophilia.
Farinsky wrote that sexual relationships between adults and children were

always exploitative and dangerous for children. After his son's suicide,
Kinler cited this paper often, but never admitted to molesting
his own adopted children. He simply said that his child
had been molested by his birth mother and committed suicide
due to that.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
And you know, he's just a more responsibility.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's how I interpret this. Yeah, And there's definitely a
period after which he claims to have recognized that, you know,
this was wrong, that he's still in contact with Hankel
right and still actively helping him to continue to abuse kids.
So yeah, I don't buy Kintler's story here.

Speaker 4 (51:20):

Speaker 3 (51:20):
This is not enough of a turn and around to
know any kind of redemption arc.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
You know, No, the happiest ending I can give you
is to continue the story of Marco. When he left
Henkel's home at age twenty one, he had nothing and
nowhere to live. He spent nights homeless, sleeping on benches
before a charity for homeless youth found him a subsidized apartment.
Henkel had done so little to educate him that Marco
didn't know that people had to pay for electricity. He

stumbled through life for a while, picking up the basics
of survival, but stuck in what he describes as a
sort of hibernation. After five years, he began to feel
as if he were a monster due to his lack
of empathy and destructive outbursts. This culminated in a fight
on a Berlin train when he noticed three men staring
at him and just beat the shit out of them,
sending one man to the er. Marco was horrified by

himself and the way he interprets this is like I
am turning into Hankel who abused me, and he made
a commitment to change. Not long after this, he was
walking down the street when a woman, a photographer, complimented
his appearance and asked, do you want to do any
modeling for me? Right? So he sat for some photos
with her, and this didn't lead to any modeling work.

But he becomes friends with this woman and he starts
to meet other people through her, and he gets a
fringe group.

Speaker 3 (52:36):

Speaker 2 (52:37):
He describes the experience of learning how to have friends
as similar to learning a foreign language through immersion in
another culture.

Speaker 3 (52:44):

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Eventually Marco met a woman, they got married, had children,
and today he is a devoted father and family man.
His very life is proof that Kentler and the other
experts in the child' psychology of the era were wrong.
Abused children are not condemned to a life where the
oly people who might care for them are pedophiles. Right,
people can recover from the most traumatic things imaginable if

they are provided with the support and love necessary to
enable healing. And thankfully Marco was. He makes friends, he
develops relationships that are equal relationships with other adults, and
he heals himself right, becomes a father, and like, it's
the best possible ending that this guy has. And there's
even this coda he gets when all of this stuff

starts to come out, Like around twenty eighteen, Marco is
contacted by a guy who works for alternative for Deutschland,
Germany's far right party, as an advisor for education and
cultural policy. And this guy Schwer reads about Marco in
a Derschpiegel article in twenty eighteen about Kentler's experiment, and
he's like, you know, he starts basically offering help from

the AfD. He claimed it's not for political purposes, but
like to really help him get justice from the parliament,
right to like get some money out of them.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
So that he could be a poster boy for the
far right.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
And that is what happened for a while. Right, the
AfD holds stop Kintler's sex ed rallies to protest the
way that sexuality is taught in German schools. They argue
that Kintler's criminal pedophile spirit lives on unbroken in today's
sexual education. While this is going on, Marco is, you know,
taking this guy's help for a while. And eventually the

German Senate authorizes fifty thousand euro payouts to Marco and
Spin and I think to a couple of other abuse
victims of Kinler's experiment. This is like, it's not common
for there to be compensation for damages and significant amounts
in Germany. In the same way it is in the US.
This is like a scene is a significant amount after
the Senate makes this basically and the Senate apologizes, right,

so not only do they give them money, they're like, OK,
this was bad, this was a fuck up. Christopher Schweer,
the AfD advisor, advises Marco and Spinn to keep fighting
at this point, to like basically be posters for this
movement where you're basically where you're arguing. Kind of everything
about sex said in Germany is based in Kintler and
that's evil. Marco is like, well, I don't understand why

I would do that. Like, we've got our wishes. There's
no point in continuing to like fight the Senate. They
did the thing that we wanted them to do, quote
from The New Yorker. But Schweer kept pushing him. Marco said,
Schweer denies this. Then I slowly got suspicious. That's Marco.
I asked myself, what else should I want. That's when
I got the feeling that the AfD just wants to

use me to play me up, and I said, I
don't want to be a political tool. I don't want
to get pulled into an election campaign and it's just
like it's remarkable to me, Like, how fucking dope this
guy is, Like how strong you have to be to
like make yourself into the man he became given what

was done to him. It's a really remarkable story. Yeah,
so I guess this bastard's episode ended with a cool
person who did cool stuff. Yeah, congratulations Marco. Yeah, Oh,

how are we feeling at the end of this all, Markret?

Speaker 3 (56:13):
I actually feel okay. So I expected to just feel
absolutely awful, And it's not just it helps that you.
I really appreciated you ending with something something a little positive,
but also I like learned a lot in terms of
you know, it's just like, oh, there's some bad people
and they do bad stuff, right instead this like there's

this thing that every ideology, like you're even in this
where you're talking about like the left and the liberal
government are two different ideologies, right, and both of these
stories have had like pedophilia injected into them and then
baked into an ideological structure. And one of them is
the ideological structure of the foster care system, and the

other is of the like kindergarten system of radicals or whatever.
And so it's just like every ideology across the board.
If there's a way that pedophiles can try to interchect
their awful nightmare ideas into it, they like will and do,

and so I appreciate watching that stop. I appreciate that,
like feminist discourse was able to interject and say, hey,
this is actually bad. And then like, and it's interesting
because you mentioned the maybe Austrian or check or something,
the guy who wrote the essay that was like, actually

you can't have any consensual relationship.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
Who was that?

Speaker 3 (57:42):

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Second Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Farinsky and so a Forrensy.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Yeah, It's one of those things where it's like, you know,
because I became an adult after that paper was written,
I sort of take it for granted that well don't
we know that? Yeah, But I'm like, I have been obvious, yeah,
And I'm like, somehow wasn't. And I try not to
always sit in judgment of the people of the past.
But there's like some stuff where like slavery and pedophilia,

where I'm like, sure, no, yeah, that was people and bad. Yeah,
and lots of people knew it, you know, And actually
slavery is like a weirdly comparable thing where like everyone's
like every ideology came up with a way to make
it okay, and then people of every ideology were like,
well except certain ideologies that were just pro slavery or whatever,

but like, yeah, overall people were like, I don't think
you can like own a guy, and people like the
Bible says you can own a guy, and other people
be like, well, the Bible says fight to stop evils
and your evil.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
I'm going to pick these paragraphs and not those ones, right, yeah, yeah,
I'm going to pick the I'm going to pick the
the the theorists on the left to like, I'm going
to pick the academic to recent Netwig who started who
like lost a position in academia because she wanted to
expose Kintler and not Kintler. You know you this is

why again, you're you're rooting. If you're rooting everything in
ideology to the point where you can't see anything else,
it makes you vulnerable to this sort of thing. There
should be you need, like you need like your own
personal like you know, not not to I don't know
the US government the way we do things. Obviously there's

a lot of flaws. But one of the things that
provide some protections that we have a bill of rights,
and you kind of have to have a personal bill
of like what are my lines politically totally morally what's
not It's like, how I have a personal line that
if you're killing children, I don't care why you're justifying it.
I don't care if your political cause is righteous, I

don't care if they're the basis kids, you shouldn't kill kids.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
That the people thought immediately, Yeah it's one of my lines, Yeah,
don't kill children. And it like he gets into this
awkward thing. We're like overall, I'm pretty prone out terms.
And then I'm like, well, there's a thing where I
would have disagreed real strongly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yeah. I think I would argue he was in a
position where it was not possible for him to really
take better actions because of what white slavery does to people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
I think that's completely fair, and I am not like, yeah,
I'm not coming out against not certain right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
His desperation was like they were not going to win,
and like, well what do you do?

Speaker 4 (01:00:25):

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
You know, what do you do? Do you stop that?
I don't know? This is all these things are messy.
Morality is messy, but it's also easy to hold a
line that says, I don't think it's okay to kill kids.
I don't think adults should be fucking kids. These are
not acceptable behaviors like child rape is not acceptable, child
murder is not acceptable. My politics have to agree with

my morals because those are removable, right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Right, And there's the difference between using an ideological label
as your your definition versus your description. I have a
set of things that I believe in, and those things
map closest for me to what I would call anarchism, right, Yeah,
but it's not I don't sit there at the end
of the day and think, well, as an anarchist, what
should I do? I think as me and what I believe,

what do I do? And so if if the label,
the label doesn't that's not what's important here. I don't pick,
you know, even as like like a trans girl or whatever.
I don't like wake up in the morning and be like,
what does a trans girl do? I'm like, no, I
do what I do. And then the closest gender label
to what I do in my own head is transgirl.
And yeah, that is we get so caught up in it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I think a root of when we talk about these
The kind of middle part of these very uncomfortable episodes
were all of these like German parents who didn't were
uncomfortable with sexualizing their children, but thought they had to
for ideological reasons. And when I when I, when I
read about people doing that, it's like, oh, well, you
don't know who you are. That's why you were, Well,

you had no idea who you were, right, totally. You
took on this ideology because it comfortingly gave you an identity,
but you didn't. You hadn't figured out the person that
you wear. You were using your ideology as an excuse
to not do that, And that is again that makes
you vulnerable about to stuff like this. You know you

do even when you realize like, oh, how clearly, like
certain things politically are obvious, you know, are obviously right,
you know are obviously wrong. That doesn't that's not an
excuse to not figure out who you are.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Yeah. Well, and then the people who are against because
right now in the US discourse, the people who are
so actively against and militantly against pedophilia, the people who
are claiming that are often these like far right people
who are actually against like me existing and giving talks
in public because I like wear a dress or something
right and that, and so in some ways people are

then becoming useful idiots because I listened to everything you're saying,
and I'm like, man, I I sure wouldn't be sad
if someone broke into that man's house and shot him
to death.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Now, but that would have been dope. Yeah, but several
men in this story should have been murdered.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, and what's hard is that, but
you can also convince people that people need to get
murdered as if they are the same as that thing,
Like this is like part of why it's so aggravating
when they're like, oh, they conflated it with like the
Green Party conflating it with homosexuality, and so people are like, yeah,
it's conflated, so kill all the gays and like, no,

stop pedophilia.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
And if violence is necessary to stop it, I don't care,
you know, but like it's so.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I think this is as we deal with as we
talked about the end of this, like the kind of
the really bad faith right wing sort of how they
make use of this while ignoring their own complicity and
child molestation, which is constant both in religious organizations and
stuff like Christian Organization's lobbying for child marriage right, which
is the norm in the US. Bucking Ted Cruz is

a big fan of children being able to get and
that's supporting a kind of pedophilia. It is politically motivated abuse,
you know, in the same way that these fucked up
leftists are. But the fact that the right does this
and has in the current period more political success doing
this sort of thing doesn't mean we can ignore this history,
because like it's important, not just maybe we're maybe we

will never again have influential pedophiles on the left, you know,
pushing through these kind of politics into like actual action.
Maybe I don't know that I think that's made, but
there will be and currently is in fact other things.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
This is why you have to like have certain immovable
moral beliefs about what's okay to do to people, and
why you also have to be willing to like like
those academics we talked about who endured that harassment campaign
when they were like, well, obviously it's wrong to rape children, right,
They had zines made about them being evil. You know,

You've got that fucking anarchist journalist being like these other
they are anarchists who don't like what I'm doing. They
don't really believe in lived anarchy, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Yeah, like like you know, what if that if I
thought that was true, if I thought anarchy meant that,
I wouldn't be an anarchist anymore. Not. Yes, of course
the important thing here isn't the label.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah, but to the people who for whom the important
thing is the label, hearing something like that can be
a thought terminating phrase, Right, you're not practicing lived anarchy, Well,
then you stop thinking about what the actual issues is,
Like those guys molesting homeless kids, right, you start to
think about, like, well, ideologically, where am I on that? No? No, no, no,
just hit the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Guy, right, you know, like you're good totally Yeah, like
three knives for the homeless kids.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Yeah, yeah, three knives were homeless kids.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Tell you, I never met anyone who practiced stabbing more
than my when I was when I was a teenage
street kid and one of my friends was a teenage
sex working street kid. That kid was stabby and he
probably learned to be. I hope he is alive and well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Mm hmm yep, and I hope uh he still has
a knife, you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Know, if you want to read about teenage, can I
have an awful segue into my yes?

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
No, no, no, great?

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you want to read about teenagers learning
to find themselves and using medieval weaponry? I have a
when I say ya book. It's actually a crossover book.
It's a book that admits that its audience is also adults.
And it's called The Sapling Cage and it is coming
out from Feminist Press in September, but it has been

kickstarted in June and you can sign up now on
the kickstarter for more information about it. And Robert read it,
and so before it has to be good. It's great
book books.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
A lot of good spear talk in it, which I'm
always a fan of. We need to renormalize the use
of spears as a personal defense weapon.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
You know, the way in which some people in street
demonstrations use long polls is a very similar thing. Spears
are very good at making space.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Yes, you need to be PELANX maxing with your friends
and colleagues, right, you know, you need to be protecting,
covering each other with your shield arm, moving as a unit,
learning how to wheel on command, and preparing to face
cavalry charges. These are the kind of things that the
kids need to be into.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
All of those things for America, Watch out for the Cossacks.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Watch out for the Cossacks. They're still around and they're
not the original Cossacks. Those guys are actually fighting right now.
Uh Anyway, Good.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Stuff Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
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