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January 18, 2024 69 mins

After almost twenty years of quiet growth the Finders explode into public awareness when they are accused of sex trafficking children, possibly for the CIA.

(Or the Devil.)

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media. I'm a p R A U X. You
can spell pro that way anyway. This is behind the
Bastard's a podcast, Bad People tell you all. I'm Robert Evans,
and I'm enjoying a beautiful day here in the Bay,
in the city of San Francisco, where I'm hanging out. Jamie.

(00:26):
How do you feel about San Francisco, Jamie Loft, this
guest host. I I look, here's what I'll say. Here's
I did nothing wrong. Did I consider robbing a grave
when I was you know, seven? Yes? But live laugh learn.
I like San Francisco, which I'm saying mainly because I

(00:46):
have a show coming up there at the beginning of February.
So I'll tell you what I really think about February. Yeah,
I'll tell you what I think about that. San Francisco
truly off off Mike, but for the public faicy purposes.
What a town, What doesn't freak me out at all?
What a place that didn't invite me to sketch Fest
this year? So I'm angry. But more importantly, Jamie, it's

(01:10):
a place where I suffered easily the greatest trauma of
my life. You know, do you know? You know Jaws.
You know Quint the shark hunter, who's who's yeah obviously, yeah,
the dead to the world, buncle to the world. You
know how his character's backstory is, this was a real
battle too. In World War Two. He was like a
navy man and his ship got sunk and everyone but

(01:32):
him got eaten by sharks. That's his backstory. And then
like a madman, the guy with the silver hair, who's
who's a lot of fun most of the time, but
he fought in the Pacific. And so there's that one
episode where those Japanese businessmen come in and he gets
real uncomfortable very quickly. This is my version of that racism. Yeah,
Roger Sterling, he gets traumatized. Right, I'm telling you my

(01:53):
story of the thing that traumatized me and now has
forever ruined me. Yeah. This we're getting heavy darting right
off the gate. So twenty eighteen, I go to Corgi Kan,
which is where all of the Corgi's in the Bay
Area gather by the beach and romp around. Several hundred
Corgis romp around and some would say start making plants starts.

(02:14):
Perhaps perhaps I can't speak to that because I was
being confronted with the worst thing that I've ever seen
that day, which is a makeshift sign outside of Corky
Khan that said welcome to sanfran Corgsco. Now, Jamie, I
wake up screaming when I think about how angry that

(02:35):
sign makes me. Like San Franciscorg was right there. You've
told this story on Mike before your story he traumatized, Sophie. Yeah, god, yeah,
this this did permanent damage to my psyche, my soul,
so my ability to trust and love people. Yeah, it
wasn't the It wasn't the pun. It was that the

(02:56):
pun was wrong. It was a bad pun. They picked
the wrong pun. That doesn't make any sense, Jamie. Well,
if you wrote that sign, and there's like a twenty
percent chance you're listening to this podcast right now, I
will find you and I will take my vengeance and
get it together if you tell this. If you tell

(03:20):
this story a third time, I will fire you. Huh.
I'm never going to stop telling the story, So you
can't stop the signal. Speaking of the signal, No, I
need to call you out really quick because you were
able to describe an episode of Madmen in detail to
Sophie and myself and moments before we started recording, needed

(03:40):
to guess three separate times before correctly remembering the sport.
Tanya Harding play just a reminder that we just live
on different planets. Can anyone tell the difference between a
gymnast and a skier a skater? She did one of
the two. It's they're the same thing. And you know
it's not. You're just trying to take it's all. It's

(04:02):
all boring, you know why, Because there's there's one actual sport,
Jamie Loftus, and it is playing second edition Shadow Run
with your friends in nineteen ninety nine. Oh my god,
that's the one, the one real sport, Jamie. I thought
you were going to that's what the Greeks played. I
thought you were going to say it was Simon says,
and then you were going to do the podcast. Are

(04:23):
you going to do the podcast? Now? I am going
to do the podcast. Sport is what happens between periods
at the hockey game. The only real sport is the
guy in the zamboni. I don't disagree. I don't disagree.
Takes four and we'd cheer for We're back on the
same page and now we can actually get back on
the same page by talking about Mary and Petty and

(04:45):
the Founders. Now, I'm a pretty tolerant guy. I've I've
lived in multiple communes. I've stayed in several more communes,
multiple countries, in fact of communes. Call you a pretty
tolerant guy. Yeah, I'm very flinch What do you? What
do you? How am I not tolerant? I don't know.

(05:08):
I've got like, I don't judge people except for that
lady who made the sign at the Corgi convention. Listen
to what Yeah, listen to what you just said about
the sign. Lady, listen to what you just said about
gymnasts or man, I don't know who made the sign. Wow,
that was problematic of me. Anyway, let's move on. Correct.

(05:29):
So so far, nothing Petty or the Finders have done
is like abusive, weird, questionable, definitely destined to win badly. Right,
when you're telling people that they should hook up or
have kids and how they should raise them, it's only
a matter of time before that becomes a problem. But
it hasn't been a problem yet. Right, Here's where we

(05:49):
get into the problems. Now, what's what's interesting to me
is that because the reputation these guys have them on
conspiracy nuts is this was like an evil sex trafficking
cult moving children across the country. The counter argument by
people who rightly are like, boy, the Satanic panic was
a real bad time is like, Eh, they were weird,
but it was pretty benign. That's not true. This is

(06:12):
definitely a cult, and they definitely abuse people in really
fucking weird ways. It's just not the ways that they
got famous for. That's that's the QAnon way to identify
an issue and make a big deal about things that
make no fucking sense. Therefore a meaning they'll get away
with shit forever. Yeah, yeah, because there's there's and they

(06:33):
did for a long time. There's no evidence that the
finders like sexually trafficked children across you like fucking national
boundaries or state boundaries for that matter. But we do
know for a fact that they did the thing all
cults do, which is demand their members isolate themselves from
their families and then attack those families when they tried
to inquire as to whether or not their loved ones
were okay. That City Paper article by John Cohen includes

(06:56):
an interview with a man named David, whose brother joined
the Finder's Cult and then cut off contact with his family. David,
as you would, sends his brother a letter just being like, hey, man,
just wanted to make sure you're okay and this weird
group where you're pretending to be spies with your landlord,
you know, like not hard to see why he does

(07:19):
this Anye Prime document or like any cult themed documentary,
that's always like one of the saddest parts when you
see the family member that's like, so, yeah, she moved
in with this lady who called herself mother God and
I don't and then she just won that happy story
though everyone got what they wanted out of that one

(07:39):
good lord. So David sends this letter to his brother
and he gets a response. It's on the letterhead of
a company that's like one of the game projects for
one of the members. Right, Petty tells one guy, hey,
make a company with this name, and so the letter
he gets a response on that company's letterhead. But it's
written by another cult member who's basically Petty's secretary. And

(08:03):
I'm going to quote from Cohen's article here. The letter reads,
this is to testify that your son Douglas aka Ernest
angel I Betterson Danny Propper. Kenny Rodgers is a true
master of the art of fucking. The shape of his
cock is unique, and he is truly an artist at
using it to give us the most pleasure. The depth,
the width, the heights. No other man touches us this way.
His hands have magic as they stroke our slender limbs.

(08:25):
And I'm not going to continue reading that. Please, It's
it's it's really, it's really, it's like an extremely explicit
letter word. Read so much of that I wanted because
you shouldn't feel uncomfortable, right, which is like, I don't know,
just let me get to slender limbs. Let me get
to slender limbs and then I'll stop. I didn't want

(08:46):
to read moist. You know what comes after moist in
this letter, right, I don't have to say. They're describing
his dick like it's like a three story apartment building
like this is this is you know how like the
Church of Scientology you speak out or like you leave
or whatever, and they have guys stalk you. They'll poison

(09:07):
your pets. Yeah, Like their version of this, which is
like both a lot less fucked up and also still
not good, is they will when your family members or whatnot,
like try to contact you or if you leave, they'll
send letters to your loved ones describing what sex with

(09:29):
you is like and sometimes showing pictures of you naked.
Not it's not blackmail because they're not asking for anything.
They're well, because they're yeah, so what I can tell.
They're not saying do anything or stop doing something. They're
just like make fucking with them, making them uncomfortable. It's

(09:51):
weird and it's definitely bad. I'm not saying it's not bad,
but I don't think there's like an exchange attempted. I
know that will it I don't know. I feel like
the discomfort is an exchange of sorts where it's like, well,
what is this person going to do to make it stop?
Like it's a weird, tacit form of blackmail where it's
they don't want an item, but they want the behavior

(10:13):
to change. Look, I think that's probably fair. It is
pretty unique. I haven't heard about this being done to
anyone and all of the cults I've read about, and
I find that kind of interesting. I mean, it just
sounds like revenge, like proto revenge porn. Basically, it is

(10:34):
a little bit of that confusing. It's it's definitely like
a lot of bit of that, although all of it
there's not always pictures that exist, right, some of it's
just text. Yeah, I'm trying to square myself with it
because also some of the things I've read, I don't
know that everyone involved in the cult would have thought
of it. I think Petty sees this as revenge porn

(10:56):
and is using it that way. It seems like a
lot of the kind to the extent that there's brainwashing.
This is during that kind of like free love period shit,
Like all these people came out of that movement, and
I kind of think some of it maybe we need
to shock the normies because they shouldn't feel uncomfortable and
awkward about talking about sex this way. You know, maybe

(11:17):
this is our way of reaching them and stuff like
which is also bad and unhinged. But I kind of
get the feeling that's at least how this is justified
internally so they don't feel gross. We're not just being
abusive to these We're not trying to hurt these people. Like,
no one should have a problem with this stuff, and
if they can't take it, then you know they need
to mature. Is divine thinking beings or whatever. I don't know.

(11:42):
That's the feeling that I get reading stuff here. It's
very uncomfortable. Yeah, it's like the letters are like they
go on and on. That's the intersection of a lot
of disgusting tactics and also like the sort of thing
where it reminds me of like hearing stories about and
like stuff that I've like of, like how how people
can get away with shit like that by not having

(12:05):
a direct threat stated, not asking for anything clear. So
you're like, well, what is legally actionable? It's harassment, but
like usually if you report harassment, all the fuck all
anyone will do is be like, well, you call us
back when they threaten to kill you, which a lot
of people know better than do do. Like, it's just
also like with a lot of these cases, like in

(12:26):
the case of this guy's family member, it's not harassment technically,
right because he sent the letter first. They're responding to
a letter, so like, legally, even I'm not again it's
not good what they're doing. I'm saying legally, I don't
know that you would have a leg to stand on
if you tried to claim harassment, because they are just
responding to a letter in a fucked up way. But

(12:47):
that's why it feels like very I don't know. I mean,
it seems like it's pretty you know, like this whole
organization is pretty calculated to what end. I still don't understand.
No one does, and you will not get an answer
to that question is no, because it is because it
is if your goal is to you know, be disgusting
and scary in a way that it's like there's not

(13:07):
a direct way to nail you for it. Like that's
what they're doing. And I think, again, a cult is
an organization made up of multiple people, so you can
have there be multiple motivations for the same act that
are independent of each other. Petty, I think is doing
this as a way to maintain control, as a way
to be aggressive, to attack his enemies. I do believe

(13:29):
based on what I have read of them, most of
his followers kind of buy that, Well, we're trying this
is about shocking. The norm is for a purpose too.
We're not trying to shock these people to hurt them.
There it's healthy to not have hang ups about sex,
and we're trying to break through their unhealthy Like I again,
that's a good reason that is people make it pictures

(13:50):
of their loved ones. I'm saying I think that's how
regular people in the cult justify this. And are we
still in the seventies at this point, because this all
scans for Like, you guys are so like this, why
don't you want to see a picture of your brother's dick.
You're like, yeah, you're so scared of your brother's huge
throbbing cock. We're all humans, so you're like, oh, also

(14:15):
especially in his unique shape, like hmmmmmm mm hmm. A
big thing for them was like describing and they don't
just do it with penises. This are equal opportunity. And
to be fair, most of the people running the cult,
aside from Petty, are the women in the cult. That's
like universally agreed upon by former members that like, this

(14:38):
was not a misogynist cult. They would describe your sister's
body to you in a gross letter, but they do
the same for your brother, you know, so well disgusting
to anybody. Relax. They are. They are described multiple times
by the cops and others as feminists, as specifically a

(14:58):
cabal of famis like its second wave, second wave second
wave feminism. Uh, they're like, yeah, second way feminism, you know,
run a cult queen. One of the things that that
makes the Finders interesting is they are they are the
nexus point of a whole bunch of shit, right, There's
more than a little signing on, like you know that
that that like first get out of Drugs program that

(15:21):
turns into a cult where they sit in a circle
and scream at each other and male people rattlesnakes. There's
some of that in there. There's a little bit of
scientology in here. There's a lot of Keith Ranieri in here.
He's definitely and descended from this guy. But there's also
there's these really unique aspects of like New age occultism
and uh kind of like like spy pulp novels from

(15:45):
the sixties. Like it's it's such an odd different things
going on like there, I don't know, I mean, the
hearing that women were meaningfully included in this unfortunately, like
especially in New Age culty movements like that, it's like
the perceived inclusivity that gets a lot of people interested,
I mean, and it's like that still happens now on
you know, whatever wa of feminism are on final because

(16:08):
we have like three years to live. When we talk
about like how a lot of really educated and successful
people are in this cult. For the women who are
that and in this cult, that's part of what makes
it make sense is that this is a lot less
misogynistic of an environment than the world of the nineteen seventies,
like the mainstream society, right, you were ordering men around,

(16:29):
you run things like you know, that's a part of
the appeal to some of the people who find this thing, right,
So they're like, Okay, so the cost of participation is
I might need to send someone a picture of their
brothers dick, yeah, and describe it in loving detail. Yeah,
and they'll do more than that, Jamie, Sorry, you're right,
I'm getting hung up on that. Yeah. This is from

(16:52):
a Maryland police report based on what happens once the
story this cult explodes and they talk to a bunch
of former family members. I have Blank interviewed all the
family members who were willing to talk specifically. They all
stated that Blank, probably Petty, had brainwashed their children and
prevented any contact with either their children or grandchildren. Members
of the Finders, according to family members, would stop any

(17:14):
contact by sending letters describing explicit sexual acts evolving current members,
including photographs and drawings. In one case, members of the
Finders attempted to take over Blank family residents and force
Blank out of her home. We don't get more than that,
And I don't know, is this armed men showing up
to steal someone's house? Are they pushing her out of

(17:34):
a property? Cult? This detective sucks by the way, he
also can't spell their right. Yeah, So we don't get
any like I don't know, was this some people showed
up and like harassed her. Was this like somebody called
her on the phone and she felt uncomfortable and so
she moved. It could really anything could be kind of
included in that it doesn't sound like a thing that
got handled by the police, and so there's not a

(17:56):
report on it. I guess I'm not like completely shocked,
but just like there seemed to be a number of
critical moments in this story where it's just unbelievably vague.
Was this the fun thing about the Finders, That's why
they're the center of so many conspiracy narratives, And so
this like wasn't this wasn't like a story that was

(18:16):
that there was any like public interest in until the
eighties right, so they're kind of just operating. Okay. So
there's police records and cult member records, two of the
least possibly like reliable sources you could ask wow, okay.
And one of the other things about it is so
there are a number of people who are abused significantly
and harassed significantly by this cult. It does a lot

(18:37):
of ugly things. From what I can tell, most people
who are in it walk away even afterwards, with a
pretty good opinion of their time in it, which is
why we don't know much because there's not a lot
of narratives. People didn't come out and be like, here's
what happened in this bookcause they're like, yeah, it was fun,
like five years for me. Yeah, it was like the
best decade of my life, you know, the time I
spent on this cult. That's more common than the bad cases,

(19:00):
which doesn't mean they were again they were abusing and
harassing people. A lot of people say that about their
time at improv theaters. Yeah, it has that kind of
improv wall of silence. Right. The then blue line as
we call it, that's where that term comes from, is
the Chicago School Yeah, that comes from IOH. Yeah, So anyway,

(19:22):
the seventies turns into the nineteen eighties, which everyone would
agree was a mistake. Petty grows more and more vengeful
and starts to get kind of increasingly aggressive. They move
on from just mailing people or their family members sex
stuff to like bombarding local media with graphic stories about
like people's behavior when they have Again, this is why,

(19:44):
because they're to some extent, See, I think some of
it's him getting offended that people might not always want
to follow his games, you know, and some of it's
probably like cult leader defending himself whatever. Right, So it
is there. Does it seem like by the eighties there
is an element of like, he's just kind of unraveling,

(20:05):
not unrat he's getting more obsessed with control, Okay, right,
that escalate. The more power you get as a cult leader,
the more power you tend to take right up until
there's a seriously push back. Yeah, this is the same
way all of these people were, whether they become the
president or run a weird little aslutely. No, no, I

(20:28):
would never say that that's fucking hack as shit. I
would say, maybe we should keep giving men like this power.
See this time it'll work one more time? Well, we
just need some nukes. If this guy had nukes, there
wouldn't have been any problems. So yeah, I will say
for for Petty's sake, I don't think his cult murdered anybody.

(20:50):
That said it is very unclear how violent they got. Uh,
several ex members were threatened directly. This is just beyond
the weird sex stuff. From one police report that interviewed
twenty one former members on their experience quote, they stated
that the organization began as an alternative lifestyle in the
nineteen sixties, and many of them became disenchanted with a
quasi military order under the direct supervision of Petty. Many

(21:14):
of the former members stated that they feared retribution from
the Finders organization. In the case of Blank, she needed
police intervention to stop the harassment of the Finders. In
the Blank case, such and such property was burned down
and remains an open arson. In the Blank case, members
of the Finders attempted to infiltrate. And then there's about
a whole sentence blanked out. I don't know what the

(21:36):
fuck's going on there in sentence ends. In the United States,
in general, all members of the Finders who had left
the group felt that harm would come to them if
they spoke out against Petty or his organization. So yeah,
what what did they infiltrate? Also, I really want to
know more about that Arson. Again, these are the cops,
so you don't get a lot of that. It's like, wait, wait,

(21:57):
what do you mean a house was burned down and
remains an open our? Why? Like I wouldn't that seems
like there should be more on that. Now I feel
like I'm getting conspiratorial. Is there any way that, like,
because of his connections through his wife question Mark, who
is probably not alive at this point, that like he
has any sort of shield or like institutional yeah, protecting. Yeah,

(22:18):
like it seems it seems like not out of the question.
This is so much redacted, there is some evidence that
suggests that yes, okay, okay, maybe this is again. Part
of why this is such a boon for the conspiracy
community is that something there is a conspiracy here and
we don't know all of the details of it, right,

(22:38):
Something really shady is going on and the extent of
it is unclear. I do get why people latch onto
this fucking story, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a lot.
I mean I know that it is not unusual at
all for there to be stuff redacted. But it's like
this feels like, you know, they're not operating really in
a way that is advantageous to the state. So I
don't understand what's weird to me about this because I've

(23:01):
read through i don't know, like two hundred pages something
like that of FBI files because all of them got
released fairly recently on this case. And if I were
an FBI agent trying to fuck with people by creating
a case that was guaranteed to like have the biggest
impact in the conspiracy community in my fanfic, you are,

(23:24):
I would have redacted it exactly this way, Like this
is the perfect way. You're giving them just enough, but
like then cutting out just the piece that's going to
like if I'm writing a fucking book and I want
to like have a conspiracy like bits of like include
little pieces of police reports and stuff to like make
the true detective conspiracy case, this is how I redact it, right,
Like it's it's so on the nose. God, yeah, this

(23:48):
I understand why it's easy to fall down the water
slide of like what the fuck is going on and
why did they get away? With this for so long,
like people too far on the Finders. Yeah, but it
is an Epstein style thing where I'm like, oh, yeah,
I get way. It's you know, you're not irrational for
being like, well, something's happening here and we don't know it,

(24:10):
you know, right right, this is a fucked up case. Yeah,
not in the same way Epstein is. But yeah, so again,
definitely a fucking cult, but a fairly careful cult. You know,
I wouldn't actually be surprised if that Arson was unrelated
to the cult, just because it stands out. I don't
see any of their allegations like that, And they go

(24:31):
twenty years without any serious media or law enforcement attention,
which suggests either most of their activities were benign or
they were really good at keeping a lid on shit.
You know. Yeah, maybe for some of the institutional backing
we had, But they don't make a splash for a
long time, which unfortunately, like that doesn't even move Yeah,

(24:51):
that doesn't even move the needle a lot for me,
because both of those are very like, feel plausible. You
know what else is plausible? Jamie, Oh tell me, Robert,
you to think about all the problems in your life.
Every way in which your current existence doesn't match you know,
your dreams for yourself, your beliefs of your own capability.
Don't worry, Jamie, you got that in your heart. It
was there anyways. Do you want to know how you

(25:13):
can solve all of that and finally become the being
that you were always meant to be by divinity? Yes?
All you got to do. Hand your credit card over
to whoever advertises next. Wow. I hope it's something bad
for me. That's almost a guarantee, Jamie, and we're back.

(25:40):
This is again a podcast sponsored entirely by convincing Jamie
to pay money for scams. It is what Yeah, it's
really Some people get into podcasting to make money. I'm
getting into it to set it on fire and buy
a lot of steel cups. Yeah. Oh, I sell her
a Stanley cup every week every Yeah. I have them

(26:01):
mounted on my wall, like something's wrong with me. See
that's the This is one of those things where I
get frustrated. There's this like thing on I think it's
big on left Twitter if people like posting mostly white
women's collections of Stanley cups, like the company that makes thermoses,
and like being like wow, this is an insane thing.
It's like, who gives a shit? I ultimately, like you

(26:23):
have Funko pops or something, or like the thousand copies
of the same old Marx book. It's fine, it's all
the same deal. I just am curious why, because it's
like there's all sorts of like bizarro collections that people
like do that you could latch onto. I'm curious why,
like Stanle, like why the cups are the ones that
like Twitter has picked up on. There's so many collections.

(26:46):
I don't know. I have every bit of discourse around
the cups. I'm just like enough, it's just twenty twenty four.
If there is a well made product, there is a
group of people who center more of their identity than
is rational around it. And that's just the way it
free cup you get if you're in the hospital. Yeah sure, yeah,
I don't. I just I don't know. I've seen every

(27:09):
ankle on the cup discourse and I was like, hmmm, ultimately,
even having a cup unless you're in a place where
you can't carry a weapon and so you want to
have something that you could bash someone's skulltash a skull
with a Stanley for I have a similar cup that
I only take out when I know I can't carry
a gun somewhere. I have my fighting cup. I have

(27:33):
one good cup, and Sophie gave it to me for
my birthday a couple of years ago, and I use
it every day. Yep, the end. I knew a lady
when I lived in Guatemala who's tactic. She got mugged
very badly once. Whenever she was going out on the
town she would have a full bottle of wine with her.
And she was like, because as an ex pat or

(27:54):
whatever in a foreign city, you never look weird carrying
a bottle of wine somewhere. But if you hit someone
in the face with a bottle of wine, it tends
to disrupt whatever they're doing, like pretty effectively. Like all right,
that's that's not an unreasonable way to look at it.
I like, I mean, in the best case scenario, you
have a bottle of wine, like you kind of useless.

(28:16):
I mean that I can really get behind that that reasoning.
It's and and you know, women have to innovate. They
just did. Absolutely. I believe in the Stanley cups is
a weapon. I take I have no opinion on this
round of discourse. I'm just excited for the new Ariana
Grande album. Ladies, if you have a weird Stanley thing,

(28:37):
this is your podcast. I think there's probably a lot
of money in saying that, so that's why I'm saying it. Anyway.
I think I think the real, the only real Stanley
Cup I observe, is the one that comes out right
after the Zamboni at the end of the season. That's
the Stanley Cup that I like. Anyways, where are we
talking about? What's the show? Oh? Man, you know this

(28:57):
is We've gone too off to But I did hear
from a friend recently that a hockey player killed a
guy by cutting his throat with his skates on accident. Oh,
come on, And that sounded like a thing that would
happen in a movie. But it's real. So I was
this like, I was like, I bet was this like
a long time ago? No, I think it's pretty recently.
It was recent, really, I was like, my dad, I'm

(29:18):
sure they taught me about the guy skate energy, but
it was a kill. I think my dad talked about
like some eighties critical injury where that happened. This was
a kill. This was a kill with the skates, so
it works brutal anyway, occupational hazard. Yeah, back to the
Finder's Cult. We know a few ex members made complaints
to the police over the first twenty years or so

(29:39):
of the cult, and there's a couple of reports you
get from cops. After this all blows up into the
big case that we're building towards where police officers in
like the DC area would be like, yeah, we knew
about him. They were weird. Uh. We kept trying to
find a way to like arrest them all, but they
weren't committing any crimes. It's a very they're all very
cop quotes where they're like, yeah, we kept looking into them,
but couldn't find any just justification to ruin their lives.

(30:01):
So we just moved on. But we're really happy something
finally happened because we knew they were weird. Got rain. Now,
over the course of almost twenty years of existence, a
number of children are born into the cult. They were
raised communally, and they were known to tell interviewers when
they were asked like who's your dad, and they would say,
he's my dad, and he's my dad, and he's my dad,

(30:23):
and that sounds like it could be fine. There's God no,
thousands of cultures and societies over the course of human
life where like that's the way it worked to some extent,
in part because they did not fully understand the way
genetic inheritance worked, and in part because like had different
attitudes on monogamy and stuff like that kind of thing

(30:44):
has been done. It's a way kids can be raised.
That's not fully what's happening here, right, because the kids
are told that, like, oh, all of the men here
are your dads. But most of the men in the
cult had no desire to raise those children, right, They're
just being told by Perry, all of the kids are
your responsibility, and they were like sure, I guess, and
then didn't pay any attention to the children. So as

(31:05):
a result, it was not uncommon for kids to kind
of get neglected because the actual biological dad is being
told all of the men are also their father, so
it's like, well, I don't have to work as hard,
and also all of the other men are like, well
I didn't have that kid, I'm not going to take
care of it. So God, yeah, whenever you hear stories,
I mean, I think it's frequently cultpital. So it just

(31:26):
like it takes a village logic, resulting in a whole
herd of adults failing to take care of a child.
So frustrating. Yeah. Yeah, there's like one of my favorite
stories and I think I caught I think I read
this in the book Sex at Dawn. Was this like
indigenous group in I believe somewhere in South America where

(31:46):
like and this is you know, we're talking about an
older set of beliefs, but like their attitude was like,
it's not children aren't made by like one father, right, Like,
once you're pregnant, you like sleep with other guys who
have skills that you like, can they all contribute to
the kid? And the pragmatic result of this is that,
like while this woman says that, like, well, these four

(32:06):
men are the men who made that baby, and they're
all responsible for taking care of the kids. So it's
a it's an a strategy when you're dealing with like
higher rates of mortality in the community. Right, the kid
doesn't have one adult looking after him or two, it
has like five or six. And that's functional very much
not what's happening here. Yeah, okay, yeah, and that also
just sounds like building a video game character, not a

(32:30):
I wish it worked that way. You're like, well, this
guy is a you know, very like handy. Let me
just go fuck a guy who is Yeah, and it's
got a hammer. I'm gonna go fuck him real quick
and really level up the kid. I wish it was
like that. That would be great. You would be having
this so much better, the greatest nine months of your life,

(32:55):
just like creating super Soldiers. Just a crowd showing up
outside of the Olympic village every four years. My god. Okay,
well that's a I mean, that's a fun idea. I
wish what is that? But the idea at least a
good short story in that. Yeah, Yeah, that's a George
that's it. That's a George Saunders b side waiting to happen. Yeah.

(33:17):
So kids in this cult are kept out of schools
and given an eclectic education. It's one of those things
where like it kind of depends when in the cult
and like what adults you're around. Because they're in a
couple of locations, some of those kids learn a lot
of stuff, right, they're around really smart educated people who
take it upon them to like train those kids. They
hang out and like you know, helping to start these

(33:38):
businesses or do these spying missions. I'm sure they learn
a lot, and other kids run around on like a
farm and don't learn how to read. Right. It's it's
a mix of those things. Are all happening. What a
beautiful uh gradient yeah, yeah, this will become meaningful later.
But on one occasion, the cult slaughters a pair of goats,
and like, oh, let the kids kind of help in

(34:00):
that process, play around with the remains too. What is
it with this group and remains? It's just I don't know,
kids like kids like dead animals, you know. That's that's classic.
That's why that famous gift. You get a kid, you know,
a dead animal, bring them to a child in a
room together. That's how parenting works. Kids like goo. Maybe

(34:20):
that's what kids do, like goo. I liked you. Yeah,
don't we all like goo? That's why Starship Troopers was
such a such a hit. So. George George Petty, Maryon's son,
would later give a description of the Colt's child rearing
practices to The Washington Post. Quote he said, the lives
of the children are unpleasant because group members rear them

(34:41):
collectively frequently. Mary and Petty now sixty six would a
sign a follower to a game or adventure overseas or
in another city, and the group member would not see
his children for months. George Petty said the group engaged
in constant babysitting. I wouldn't want to be a child
there without a reliable day in, day out parent. Figure.
If the children found in the van in Florida, I

(35:02):
bet you a buck, you'll find their biological mothers live
in w Street. That's the occult's other location. And if
they're not up there now, they're off on some adventure.
This is later when those kids get found. As I
open the episode, right, like he's saying, basically, Okay, these
kids are neglected a lot. I don't think there ever,
there's no goal to abuse them. They believe things because

(35:24):
Petty has all these theories about child rearing that wind
up not being great for these kids. But they're not
like going out of their way to harm them, right,
it's just the bad social experiment. Yeah, And again, like
the goal that is leading to these children being neglected
is so mysterious, Like I just don't understand. I might

(35:48):
not agree with that, Jamie, because like, oh, what I
think is happening here. All these people is cult are
raised between the twenties and the forties, not a famously
great time for raising kids. A lot of problems, a
lot of kids getting the shit beat out of them,
very authoritarian education, or kids being pulled out of education
to like make money, you know, for their families or

(36:10):
they'll starve. Yeah, being enlisted, being forced into labor too young. Sure,
and so I don't think it's unreasonable that these people
are like, I bet there's a better way to raise kids.
I think what's unreasonable is that they say, and we'll
let this one guy decide what it is. Yeah, weirdo.
That's where the problem comes in. Yeah, that is interesting.

(36:31):
I've never heard of like alternative parenting, like i e.
Semi abusive parenting techniques being framed in that way. That
makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, this is what
it is, right, Yeah, right, Like, well this is it's
almost like bad boyfriend logic where you're like, well, it's
not what happened to the last time, so let's see

(36:51):
if it works, and it's usually it usually doesn't. Yeah,
might as well change it up. Yeah, So yeah, I
had that article. That Washington Post article also includes some
quotes from neighbors who visited the Petty family farm early
in the Colt's life, and they this is like some
random man on the street encounters towards how the Colt
raised children that I found interesting. In the summer, neighbors

(37:13):
saw as many as a dozen children at the farm.
There was always hollering and screaming going on, said Wilma Richards.
They were always hollering about mama and daddy. One time
I heard one say I want milk. Another person said,
shut up, you ain't gonna get ituck, and bad journalism there,
because it's like, what was that a kid saying shut up,
you ain't gonna get it, Because that does kind of
sound like a kid being angry at another kid, or

(37:34):
as any an adult saying fuck you you don't get milk,
in which case that's a more abusive scenario. Right. Yeah,
I don't know. Yeah, but you know, these kids, this
is not I don't think the ideal way to raise kids.
Just keeping them box to them a farm and not
educating them. I'm going to bravely say I think they're
doing a pretty horrible job of raising these kids. Not

(37:56):
a good job with these kids. Yeah, although again, it's
the same seventies. Is this worse than an average parent? Sure?
Is this massively worse than a lot of people are doing. Well,
I don't know. I I'm just I think they're doing
a bad job. But they're doing in the context of

(38:16):
like they're doing a different bad job than the previous generation.
Because there's a wave of new parenting skit that ends
up you know, fucking I don't know, We're just fucked.
We're just fucking yeah, we're just fucked again. This is bad.
It's not surprising. We all, I'm gonna guess everyone listening
to this new kids were friends with kids whose parents
took variations of this attitude, were like, we're different, we

(38:39):
don't you know, watch over our kids, Like we're more
we have this more enlightened attitude towards child rearing. But
that was just a way of them justifying I don't
pay any attention to my child, as opposed to actually
trying to give them more freedom, which is good. Like
parents who just like had no idea what was going
on with their kids. You all knew that kid, we
were all or you were that kid, right, Like, what
I'm saying is that this is not great child rearing.

(39:02):
But it's not weird right this, Sure, yeah, I'm going
the same way that like, I don't know, I think
about like growing up in like an age of like
helicopter parenting, being on the come up and having some
parents that like just were like, well I don't do that.
I'm doing this brave new thing called not paying attention
to my child at all. You're like, surely we can

(39:22):
split the difference. Literally never met my child. Yeah. In
nineteen eighty six, Petty had an idea for a new game.
For reasons that are somewhat obscure to me, he ordered
the membership to split into an all male and all
female dwelling. Some women who lived independently were ordered to
live separately from the men. The closest thing that I

(39:42):
found to an explanation as to why they did this
is that some of the women had complained that their
baby daddies were using the Colt's attitude towards child rearing.
It's an excuse to ignore their kids. So this is
a kind of a mark. And the less abusive thing
as like, yeah, they did this for a few years
and like the men were ignoring the kids, so they
change shit. Up, and the way they change it is
Petty has all of the women move into separate apartments

(40:05):
from the men. They live in a separate house and
the men are living with the kids and taking care
of them. Right. He's basically saying, Okay, you men have
been shirking your job. We're gonna cut the women out
of it. They can all they're all gonna go off
and have an adventure and you have to focus on
raising the kids right now, which is again not misogynist. Now, no,

(40:25):
is it a good idea for those kids? They're to
put them with these guys, you don't know what they're doing.
Maybe not. Yeah, there's there's many things that are true here. Yeah,
it's it's a complicated situation because it is like that
is progressive from a gender standpoint, but also really not

(40:46):
very responsible. But we gotta vet these dads. We just
gotta bet these dads. We can't count on them learning
on the job they need. Look again, it's not fair
that like, because the women are the ones who have
kept these kids from dying, they should have stayed involved
in keeping them from dying. But you know, you probably

(41:06):
should have had like training wheels on the guys, right
that's all I'm saying. Yeah, No, I mean it's like
the child rearing is always going to unfairly fall to women.
That's something we all know. But it's also like if
I'm leaving my child to a guy that doesn't know
how to like exactly, you know, that's I think about
like when my parents, I mean, and I love my

(41:29):
family very much, but when my parents got divorced and
my dad was like, my dad doesn't know how to
do laundry, what are we gonna do? Like we're gonna die.
I'm not making a general statement about like I'm not
saying that like, ye, men should not be led. I'm
saying that in this specific case, men can be as
men had ignored these kids for years, and you shouldn't
just give the kids to them without having someone there

(41:51):
to make sure they know what they're doing. Right. Yeah, Yeah,
that's that's all I'm saying. Yes, I mean there's yeah,
obviously there's there's good male parents. It's just not in
this group. It doesn't sound, it doesn't seem like a
lot of good ones in this group. Now, what the
men are actually pretty good at, and I think the
women too, is making money. And this is an interesting thing.
I think this cult doesn't steal. Most of the money

(42:13):
it gets from its members. Members when they join fold
their finances into a big account. But there are a
number of claims from members who are like, if you
wanted to take your money out, you could, Nobody stopped you. Right.
That will change eventually, but for the first like twenty
years or so, it's like a big bank. And the
money that people are putting in, they're starting businesses, and
some of those businesses are pretty successful. And the idea,

(42:37):
initially from Petty is that like the children that we're
having and raising within the cult will inherit these businesses
and they'll continue on our mission. It's never clear what
the mission is, but like, that's the idea. We're pooling
our resources starting business and then we'll make money that
will pass on to these kids who are going to
raise to be super enlightened, you know people. Right now,

(42:59):
Petty obviously is not a guy with any experience running businesses,
and he has no real interest in running businesses. A
lot of what they do is like training people on computers.
There's a lot of computer engineers and the finders, and
Petty doesn't know any of that. Shit. So a lot
of the management Jet tasks fell on the shoulders of
Robert Toby Terrell, who writes the book that is a

(43:19):
major source for a lot of our details on Marion's life.
Terrell is a former IRS employee who became a venture
capitalist and wound up owning an oil company. Like he's wealthy. See,
I know anytime you throw a three name in there,
something is about to go wrong. Toby's his nickname that
he got in the cult. But yes, that does count. Yeah,

(43:39):
So Perry's an early member. He joins in seventy one,
and he abandons his family in ordered Like he's got
a family, he's got a business, he's got like a house,
and he just like meets this guy and leaves it
all behind. He would later say, quote, I was looking
for a more meaningful life. I had already made a
pretty big pile of money, and I couldn't just go
on making more. There wasn't really much point in that

(44:00):
Petty offered a more personalized life, more community oriented, re
establishing the kind of extended family that the human species
evolved under. And I'm not one hundred percent clear did
he like leave his kids and wife or like is
he still involved in their life. It kind of sounds like,
here's the fight it, here's your money. You've got some money.
I'm going to go leave to be in a cult now. God,

(44:20):
which for the for the right bad parents, could be
a blessing. It could be huge. Honestly, I love what
a problem just resolves itself like that. Yeah. Yeah, So
things are going pretty well by cult terms for the
Finders right up until the end of nineteen eighty six. Now,
the cult at this point has started looking at Tallahassee, Florida,
as a possible place to expand their operations. It's neck

(44:42):
colts in Florida go together like, well, there's nothing that
goes together better than that, But it goes together well,
they go together real good. Several adult male members then
decide to drive down to Florida in a van to
check out possible location. They're scoping out, like are we
going to expand to here? Right? And because of the
aforementioned shifted child rearing that had occurred, they had a
bunch of kids with them, Right, So you got two

(45:04):
men in a van with a bunch of small children.
Neither of those men know much about taking care of
small children. They are feeding them a vegan diet. It
sounds like which you can do with a little kid,
but you need to be careful about it to make
sure they're getting proper nutrition. And I don't think these
men know much other than the hand a two year
old a carrot. The optics are objectively bad. Yeah, this

(45:31):
is not going to look good. I am not surprised
that these guys attracted attention. So the gist of what
happens next is that a group of two adult men
in suits are spotted by some busybody in Florida with
children who seem dirty. She gets angry and she reports
them to the police because she's sure that something is wrong.
The police are like, we're the police. The last thing

(45:53):
we care about is anything fuck off. So she starts
adding details, right, like, Okay, they don't care that these
two men in suits are around a bunch of dirty kids.
So she starts adding shit, and she's you know, the
kind of Floridian lady who calls the police when she
sees some men in suits that look like hippies. So she's, hey,

(46:15):
don't limit that to Florida. There's a lot all over them.
There's neighbor ladies all over this great nation, willing to
call the cops for any reason. Yeah, and this is
the late eighties, so the Satanic panic is in full
swing right now. Right. So after a couple of phone calls,
the cops don't bite. She starts folding in, claims that
these people are Satanists, you know, to try to make

(46:37):
them do something, okay, and I want to I'm going
to read to you an excerpt from a police report
on the arrest that happens after this, because it shows
how kind of how much this woman who calls them
really forces, how she's like building consciously building a story
to force the cops to do something. In December of
nineteen eighty six, the woman's name called the Intelligence Division

(46:57):
and reported that she had information concerning a call operating
in the District of Columbia. Blank was advised the Detective
Blank of this office handle Colt investigations and was currently
out of town, but would contact her after his return.
She was contacted in late December by Detective Blank by
telephone and advised that she wished to be interviewed concerning
this cult Detective Blank and Detective Blank of the Maryland
Park Police. She claims to these guys that a section

(47:20):
of the cult was operating in Maryland. They interview her
at her residence and she says that like yeah, now,
after you know, making her initial call, she starts claiming
that like, oh, these guys actually tried to bring me
into the cult and they tried to recruit me. And
the police are like, well, that's interesting, but that's still
there's nothing illegal with trying to get someone to join
a cult, so call back when you have more. So

(47:40):
in January of eighty seven, the next month, she calls
back again, being like, Okay, these guys are Satanists. I'm
aware that they're Satanists. And the detective, to his credit,
is like, well, that's still not a crime. But then
he's like wow, yeah, base police, base base police. But
he is interested, like I want to figure out what's happening.
So he like calls another detective and is like, let's

(48:03):
keep in the loop about this in case something happens.
And so there's like there's some interest in the police
about these guys. And they get yet another call on
February fourth, nineteen eighty seven, and decide to send some
police out to check on the matter. Right, and the
call comes in from someone in the neighborhood who sees like,
there's these group of men dressed as a skabhand with

(48:23):
a van full of dirty children. I call that woman
a busybody because like she calls the police repeatedly over
these guys and keeps kind of bugging them about it. Well,
and I feel like there's an element of I mean,
I could think of people like shitty neighbors throughout my
life as well, who like, once the police engage with them,

(48:44):
they feel, you know, they seem empowered to be like, oh,
I'm a part of I'm a part of this, you know,
and continue to engage it just sometimes like an increasingly
nonsense ways. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also this is kind
of the most important thing for me to note is
that like, not everyone who lives in this neighborhood where

(49:04):
these guys have their van and these kids sees anything
sinister here. One of the articles I found sites a
college professor who lived in the area, John Matthews, who
is like, yeah, you know, there were like a close
knit group of feminists who like to help people. They're
not a cult, you know, people talk about them because
of their lifestyle, but I think they're pretty harmless. So
there's like not everyone there's like it seems to be

(49:27):
this woman specifically thought something was wrong here. Now, to
be fair to her, these kids do seem to be
like dirty and perhaps not well cared for, right, totally
off base, She's not totally off base. There are wrong reasons, yeah,
and it's weird that she like lies about Satanism. Basically
maybe she believed it, like all, but like if you

(49:50):
see kids that you think are being abused and the
police repeatedly won't do anything, maybe that's the action you take.
I don't know, yeah, I mean or or just I mean, like,
given how low the bar was to believe somewhat was
a Satanist in the eighties, I mean, who she could
be going off of any number of faulty yard six there. So, finally,

(50:10):
February fourth, after repeated calls, the police send a couple
of officers to check on these guys, and they find
two men living with six kids aged two to seven.
The kids are described as being really dirty, they have
a lot of bug bites. The cops I think, initially
described them at least one cop that initially describes them
as like malnourished. The van is kind of smelly. They

(50:32):
seem to have been hyping up how like the fact
that they were malnourished. Further reporting and like medical investigation
did not show the kids were in like bad health.
And like one of the officers who responds as a woman,
and she actually kind of pushes back at the idea
that the kids were particularly dirty because all of the
news reports when this blows up, are like the children
uncared for in the back of a van, And this

(50:54):
lady officer is like, my first impression is that they
were dirty, but I would not say they were unusually
dirty for kids, right, Like, yeah, they're kind of like gross,
but that's children, you know. Interesting. I still don't know
where to where to lay out because it's just such
a yeah, it's such a fraud issue, and it's like
anyone could everyone sounds like they're a degree of right

(51:16):
right situation. Yeah, yeah, that's that, And I think that
is kind of where we are, because like I actually
can't blame the police for being like, all right, well,
there's this lady really concerned that these kids are being
mistreated and they're dirty. We should probably check in and
like negligy to do nothing. It's like the police to
do nothing. Yeah, let's check in on this, right, And

(51:38):
so they do and they find, you know, one of
the men is the biological father of one of the children.
The other guy has nothing to do biologically with any
of the kids, none of their other parents, but he
had sex with the pregnant woman and thinks that that
would make one of these kids good at basketball, Like, yeah,
it's good stuff. One of the office, the responding female officer,

(52:03):
wrote this in her report. This writer spoke to suspect one,
who stated that he and Suspect two were teachers from Washington,
DC and they were en route to Mexico with the children.
Suspect one stated that they were going to Mexico to
set up a school for brilliant children. When asked about
the parents of the children, Suspect one became very evasive
and stated that the children's parents were in Washington, d C.
So this is the lie, and it will later come

(52:25):
out that Petty had told them that if the cops
ask you why you're driving around these kids, say you're
taking them to Mexico to start a school for geniuses.
Like that's that's his lie that he comes up with
to tell the cops you're taking these other people's kids
to Mexico to make a baby Harbor. That is like crime,

(52:46):
mad libs. So funny, that's escaping the country mad libs.
Because if you just said, like, yeah, we're watching some friends' kids.
You know, we're all about to move down here, we're
looking for a house, like cops probably believe. But you're like,
we're taking them to Mexico to make baby Harvard. Well, yeah,
of course you're getting arrested now if that's clearly sex

(53:07):
criminal stuff. Jesus Okay, So so there. I mean, it's like,
are they I don't know why. I'm trying to understand
why they would say this. Everyone's been behaving weird for
two decades and this is the first time people seem
to care it's happening. Uh, baby Harvard. That is just

(53:28):
that's just a step too far. We have to draw
the line of baby Harvard, says the police. I'm always
saying that, and so are the police. Yeah. And you
know what else the police are saying, Jamie, Oh no,
don't buy the products that support this podcast. We the
police hate them. Yeah, perfect crime. Well I just took
my wallet out. My wallet's never been in my pants

(53:52):
even once. Let's not think too deep into the optics
of that. I don't know. Uh huh, Okay, I actually
don't have a wall. Yes, I just keep my cards
loose in my pants. Ah, we're back and pretending I

(54:12):
didn't say the thing that we believed out of the podcast.
So the cops are talking to these people. The Finders
members come up with their brilliant lie written by Petty
that they're just taking these kids to Mexico. The police
are like, where are their mothers? And so the men
tell the lie that Petty had told them to say,
which is that they're being weaned off of their mothers. Again,

(54:34):
every bit of this is like exactly what you would
say if you wanted the police to think your sex criminals. Yeah,
it really is a masterclass and what not to say
in a situation where I think that they are being
set up to get away with it whatever it is. Yeah,
that or Petty wanted to create a conspiracy theory, and

(54:54):
so he sent these guys off to get in trouble.
I don't know, I don't know. So the officers at
this point decide to arrest these guys on suspicion of
child abuse, not necessarily unreasonable given what they've been told. Yeah,
I just you have to say it. And it's particularly
reasonable because they're they're doing this so that they can
have medical professionals talk to and inspect the kids. Right,

(55:18):
Are they malnourished, Have they been beaten? Have they been molested?
That's pretty important to know given everything that's happened here.
And so they tell the men like, you're under arrest
on suspicion of child abuse. And one of the men
pretends to faint. And this is the police officer describing it.
The guy just did a fake faint. I've seen it
several times. Women are real good at doing it. Usually

(55:41):
when a guy really faints, you don't ben the knees.
This guy did the Scarlett O'Hara thing. I checked him.
I looked at his eyes to make sure he wasn't
diabetic or something. I said, get up, I know you're
faking this mess. And he wouldn't get up. It was
like a child playing, like when you go to check
if they're asleep at night, do that. This cult is
not finding very strong soldiers. Oh no, they're just like you. Oh,

(56:05):
my stars and stripes, I'm being accused of what like
POWD molestation. This is just it. Oh god, everyone in
this scenario is flopping. Let's get these kids out of here,
away from the police, away from these guys. Yeah yeah,
let's do it. Eh. So, while this is all happening,

(56:27):
this guy's fake fainting, the cops are doing their arrest thing.
A group of local teens sees the commotion and one
runs home to get their video camera, returning just in
time to film the arrest. It became a local story,
and people tipped off the news who immediately jumped on
a possible tale of a pedophile van because the initial
complaint from that woman said they were Satanists. That's what

(56:47):
came out in some of the first coverage of the event,
and the story snowballed from there. The fact that fired
everybody up and ensured this became a media circus was
that a police spokesman had stated at a press conference
that quote, physical examination showed sexual abuse to one of
the children. Now, this is extremely serious. Allegations do not

(57:08):
get much worse than that, right, and that is a
serious thing. If a child was found who have been
sexually abused, whether or not that's the whole cult or
one guy in it who was given like control over
children because of Petty's weird game. Either way, serious problem, right,
and much of the reputation of the finders of why
they're part of conspiracy theory centers around this statement. Right,

(57:29):
that specifically one of these children was found who have
been abused. Here's the problem. That is not an accurate
statement based on what the cops had been told at
that point. Now, Okay, in this case, it's not fully
their fault because a Health in Human Services caseworker had
told a police officer that two of the children were
confirmed sexual assault victims. Now, a couple of things here.

(57:52):
Number one, that means the police are still wrong because
they said that one shelf had been abused, and they
were told by the Health and Human Services re up
that two children had been But also the Health and
Human Services representative had not been told that a child
was a confirmed sexual assault victim. That was also a
lie to the police, not a lie, a misstatement at
the very least, it's unclear as to why that misstatement

(58:14):
was made. But I'm going to quote from reporter John
Cohen here. Okay, the doctor's dictation, the doctor who inspected
the kids transcribed the day after the exam cautiously described
possible sexual abuse of one boy and one girl. He
described abnormal characteristics of one girl's hymen and one boy's
anus that might be evidence of assault, but we're not
diagnostic of it. In other words, the doctor did his job.

(58:36):
He looked at these kids, and he found two kids
who had physical symptoms that might have been the result
of past sexual abuse. But here's the thing. You know,
the hymen, we know that, like that is a thing
that can be broken when somebody with a vagina loses
their virginity. But like horseback riding you, yeah, it's like
you could go Jamis Dowell and break it on a

(58:58):
bike seat. Yeah, on a bike seat, very painful. Likewise,
this boy there were characteristics of irritation in his anus
that sometimes are evidence of past of sexual abuse. But
also like if you have diarrhea, because like the guys
watching you are like feeding you old vegetables and like
don't not not really giving you a good diet, perhaps

(59:18):
your aanus becomes irritated. Right, it's not diagnostic. We don't
know sure, and I hate that, like we have to
get into like the what about ism of like determining
what constitutes child abuse and like all it's just so
I don't know, and especially in the during this era
with the Satanic panic, there's like just a whole history

(59:39):
of sensationalism and and that goes through the quan On era.
That just it just makes it makes me so mad
because it just like cases like this lead to like
real act like actual allegations being completely blown off, and
like that's why these movements are so counter intuitive to actually,

(01:00:03):
I mean, I know, I'm like a broken record with
this shit. It's just it's so unbelievably frustrating that it's
like you have to get that granular to you know,
make sure that these children are actually safe without empowering
a fucking cult that they like. It's just yeah, it's
it's very frustrating because like what the doctor has done

(01:00:24):
here is his job, which is like, yeah, we should
look into what's happening to these kids more because this
could be evidence of sexual abuse, which is a responsible
thing to say a health in Human Services rep here's
that and then just says, yep, we've confirmed two kids
were raped. And then the cops say, yep, we've confirmed
one kid was raped. It's just this like this chain

(01:00:45):
of every adult but the doctor in this situation just
being dipshits. And as a result, suddenly the news comes
out and America believes these men were caught taking kids
to Mexico and molesting them, Right, and then that's confirmed
we know that, right, which is not the case? Now?
Is this evidence of abuse or neglect? Definitely neglect. I

(01:01:07):
think we definitely have neglect here, right, Absolutely, that's clear.
Maybe even abuse would not be impossible that one or
both of the men traveling with these kids did something
fucked up too, But they will be found innocent. Well
and because well, and that sounds like it's completely because
of how incompetent the investigation is. Yes, so you know,

(01:01:30):
I would say you should probably investigate further when something
you know, like this happens before you talk to the press.
But the police just go to the press and say, yep,
we've confirmed a kid was raped, and the press is
off to the races. I'm gonna quote here from that
city paper article. The Miami Herald and Washington Post ran
page one stories three days in a row. The stated

(01:01:51):
New York Times reported that some have described the finders
as bizarre cult of devil worshippers. Everyone got it on
the Act, Connie Chung, Larry King, CNN, even the BBC,
and like that's so from the New York Times. That's
such a fucking New York Times thing to be like, well,
there's no evidence of anything yet, just a very unclear case.
But some random lady in Florida said they're Satanists. So

(01:02:13):
let's just say some have described them as a cult
of devil worshippers are talking about Yeah, do the people
say know anything? No, but it's just like the most
like satanic panic sensational. I mean that still continues, but
that's yeah, and it's like for what this is Like
this sounds like the first time in media at least

(01:02:36):
where there is some purpose being ascribed to this cult,
Like yeah, you know, they maybe they were relieved to
find out that they were evil Satanist because they're like,
we're not really sure what we were supposed to be doing. Yeah, yeah,
it's uh, we just let this grave robbing child like
gamify our lives for some reason. And now we're starting

(01:02:56):
Baby Harvard to be to be a conspiracy here. Again,
it's not beyond possibility that Petty was the one who
orchestrated the call to the police because he wanted to
create a media circus, Like that's not impossible. I don't
have any evidence for it, but he he's going to
send once the press gets on this. He has some

(01:03:19):
members of the finders give statements to the media that
are like purposefully crazy or bizarre, like usually not just
like like unhinged, but like weird in a way that
will make people more suspicious because it's part of a
game to him, like these women's six women's children have
been taken into custody, or multiple women's children because I

(01:03:42):
think one of them had two have been taken into
custody and are wards of the state for a period
of weeks. Their mothers can't take them home. And he's like,
I'm a Mary Pranks to let's keep fucking with the press.
We'll give the police conflicting statements. Ha, what fun this
all is. As these moms are like losing their minds

(01:04:03):
because their kids are locked away from them. It's their
fucking kids. And then also that it makes it clear
that like to whatever degree this neglect or abuse is happening,
he doesn't give a shit. He's like couseplaying as like
the fucking lobotomy joke. Yes, yes, like Jamie, I'm not
a great person. Do I think it sounds fun to
convince the police that you're like running some sort of

(01:04:25):
satanic conspiracy. Of course, but once children get taken by
the State of Florida, it's time to stop playing. If
you don't want children in the clutches of the State
of Florida. That's even worse than these guys watching them. Right,
the situation keeps getting worse. Uh, it is very funny.

(01:04:46):
The police are clearly like just thrilled that they're getting
all this attention. There's like quotes from police officials about
like I'm gonna be on Connie Chung hot Dog, so like, yeah,
you won't be surprised to hear that. Like, as this
becomes a huge media thing, the police who'd kind of
been like, let's figure out what's happening. It's not super
clear what's going on. Let's do an investigation aer immediately,

(01:05:06):
Like all right, it is time to carry out a
series of raids across the country on every property these
people own, because you know, this might be this could
be a career maker, right if this is a devil
sex cult thing, we could really do well by getting
big on this stuff. And you know, so a series

(01:05:27):
of raids are launched, the police start going after finders' properties,
you know, up in the northeast around the DC area,
and because these kids have crossed state lines and there's
allegations at least there's some sort of child trafficking going on,
that's interstate commerce. And when interstate commerce gets involved, that
means that the FEDS who are going to get involved
are the Customs Department, right, So it's Customs that's carrying

(01:05:50):
out a lot of these raids, and that's going to
be a real problem because one of the customs agents
who gets involved in this is a shall we say,
conspiracy int and he's really gonna really gonna cause some
fun for us in the next part. But Jamie, yes,
that's all we've got for this week. I think there's

(01:06:10):
gonna be one more. That's a lot, that's a lot more,
maybe two, but probably just one. But we'll get to
that next week. This week, this we're done. This is
a queasy This is this This is a fucking queasy one.
Like there's so many, so many conversations we've had over
the years are just straight up clearly bad. This one
is like it feels. It doesn't feel like it happened

(01:06:34):
thirty five years ago. It feels like it happened recently. Unfortunately,
this stinks. I'll bravely say this stinks. Well that's good.
I agree it does stink, but you know it doesn't stink. Jamie.
What podcasts, particularly the podcast you're about to launch for us?
It's true? Are you yeah? What are you doing on

(01:06:56):
that podcast? Jamie? What are you gonna be doing? Thanks
for the tea up. Well, I've got a new show
coming out on cool Zone Media. Ever heard of it
that you and Sophie are letting me make. It's called
fifteen Minutes. It is about some of the most notorious,

(01:07:16):
particularly main characters of the Internet, but the people who
had a strong impression on people for one or two days,
and we see where they're at, what happened to them,
if they had impact on the world, and if they
are upset that they are remembered, as for instance, thirty
to fifty Faral Hogs guy who I intend to maybe

(01:07:39):
get justice for. I don't know. We got to talk
to him. But anyways, that comes out in March, and Jamie,
is that a weekly podcast. Oh yeah it is. And
it's a weekly podcast. Yeah, because there's just so many
of these motherfuckers. I often get asked, how do we
get more Jamie Loftus and it's You're Greenland Weekly Dreaming

(01:08:01):
Loftice podcast. You're welcome, Yes, and soon you'll never be
asking that question again. You'll be asking could I have less?
And how do I avoid? And I'm happy to help
out there as well. Well, that's all a good time. Well,
everybody that's going to do it for us here at
Behind the Bastards this week, you know, until next week.

(01:08:24):
If you start what might be some sort of sex
cult or might just be basically D and D for
you and your friends, don't let children get taken into
custody by the State of Florida. It's not worth it.
Just the thought, the one takeaway. Yeah, yeah, that's where
I am. Bhie. Behind the Bastards is a production of

(01:08:51):
cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit
our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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