Voices of Revolution

Special Bonus Minisode: The collected unedited audio of the interviews from 'The World is Burning.'

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everybody, I'm Robert Evans. This is not really an
episode of Behind the Bastards. I just wanted to make
sure people had access to the full audio of all
of the interviews I conducted for the World is Burning
episode that ran earlier this week. So this episode is
just the unedited audio of all of those interviews. UM.
There will be a normal episode coming on Thursday as well. UM.

(00:24):
So to start off, we have the unedited audio of
my interview with those two Chilean activists. Uh, and I'm
gonna play that right now. Yeah. So, UM, would you
guys give or you Stephanie, if you'd like give an
overview in your own words of Whitey's protests started obviously
like the kind of foreign headline is uh bus or

(00:45):
a public transit? You know, fair increase leads to protests.
My understanding is that's just sort of kind of the
spark that lit a bunch of tinder on fire. Yeah,
but I'm interested in Yeah, what what you blame it on? Yeah?
We the last year we are participating in different products

(01:05):
for these a different think about um problems that we
have almost the almost started with the Pinal chest, with
the queue, start about the common with the pension plan

(01:26):
system and in the education that is really high goals
and uh, the health care problem and really expensive transportation
and hum and the commomale commale commer Yeah, the minimum

(01:55):
wages very low. So yeah, it's like you said, um
where what initially started this protest was a group a
bunch of students who were evading UH the metro so
to protest the rise in the fair which is the
second or third time they've raised the metro uh in

(02:20):
the last three years. Um. And so it's the most
expensive metro in South America. And and even though for
someone from the United States it might seem it's still
very cheap or how are they only protesting over ten
more cents or whatever? But um, in Chile, if you
make the minimum wage, you could be spending almost of

(02:42):
your wage on the metro. It is very expensive here.
And UH. So what happened is a lot of students
were getting together as like a big group, and so
there would be hundreds of them and they would all
rush into the metro together and jump over the turnstiles
and so the uh that's how it all started. And

(03:03):
then the police were very heavy handed in their reaction
and got very violot and then it got kind of
worse from there, and so the protest exploded into more
of a general protest because Um, there's been a lot
of problems in Chile and there's a lot of um

(03:24):
inequality and a lot of things that have never been
fixed since the since the dictatorship, so they're still using
the same constitution that was written by Pino j and um. Yeah,
and there's lots of other things, Yeah, the corruption of Pinera,

(03:46):
the current president, and then a lot of protests over
the last couple of years about the pension plans, the
a FP and so of company, UM, selling land of
for hydro electric companies too only for business. And it's

(04:08):
really interesting because in Chilen almost uh ten family are
they have control uh for of the they are they
they are they have control with the core control rica. Yeah.

(04:31):
So it's it's similar to the United States, where there's
you know, a couple of hundred billionaires that are kind
of controlling every day, but in Jilian it's literally ten
families and these ten families are very very rich and
have a lot of control in the country. UM. But
but yeah, so it's it's about a lot of things. UM,

(04:53):
the protest now and uh would you you're walking in
this no? Please continue? Please continue? Now in this Um
you know this uh Perio Perio of the Pineria that
is the president. Is it the second um Perio second

(05:18):
term term? Yeah, they has So I think all the
Chilean think that the cops in Um in the terms
of the Pinera, they are more aggressive this year in
all the term. So there's also, yeah, a big issue

(05:43):
with like the militariation, militarization of the of the police. Yeah,
so the police are really heavy, and like she was saying,
especially with under under Piera, the police respond to often
peaceful protests with with dear guys and um and violence.

(06:06):
And now of course there's been declared the state of
emergencies and now you have the military in tanks in
the streets too. And why you said that the police
have gotten more aggressive and more violent this year, Why
would you do you have do is there a reason
behind that? Do you think like, is there some sort
of cause to that that you can see? No, it's

(06:28):
not any reason. It's only a strategy of the government.
But it is a bad idea. And in Um a
couple of months ago we saw some car of the cuffs,
uh driving in the in the passel really traditionally the
center of the city and uh tear gas. Oh yeah, yeah.

(06:52):
A couple of months ago there was some crazy protests
and the police were We're driving through like plazid there
almost like the downtown, like the center of the historic
center of town and and and throwing tear guys at
people who aren't even protesting. And um, but to answer
your question, I think that it just has to do

(07:14):
with the government, because, um, a couple of years ago
the president was Bachelte, who is more center left, And
so I think the police now under Vinera, understand that
they kind of have carte blanche to do whatever they
want and that they won't be reprimanded for um violence

(07:35):
against protesters. And when this when this current wave of
like heavy street actions broke out, were y'all there for
sort of the beginning of that. Were you there and
sort of the first day that this like really kicked
off into um, you know, a citywide sort of thing
rather than just kind of a fair protest. Yeah, definitely,

(07:56):
so we UM we live about step six or seven
blocks from the Plaza Talia, which is the Metro Baca Vado,
which is like the center of downtown, and it's the
historic place where protests always start and and so we're

(08:16):
kind of in the thick of it. And then also
we are right by this intersection where when the protest
really got serious two nights ago, Um, the there were
five buses that were burned right at our intersection. So, um, yeah,
it's kind of right outside our door. And uh, what

(08:36):
do you one of the Obviously, I think, probably internationally,
the most famous image from these protests so far is
the headquarters of that electric company um being burned down. Um.
And it's usually most of the sources I've seen have
ascribed it to the protesters, but I have seen a
lot of people saying that, um, it couldn't have been
protesters because the fire started on the floor that only

(08:58):
a limited number of people have access to. Obviously, I
don't think anyone can prove to a point of certainty
one way or the other what happened. Yet, Um, do
they all have sort of a take on that, an
opinion on that what you think is most likely what
most people seem to believe. Yeah, it's it's weird with
the busses the same us. It's crazy to believe because uh,

(09:24):
with with the problem with the buses, m we saw
a couple of videos and one of these busses was
sculpted for the Cups and really weird situations and almost
the bus they put in the place for the people
can learn in for angry and for the problem. So

(09:49):
this is not the first time that the Cups makes
stuff crazy like that. So you can think about and
can using your imagination to to think that it's real,
it's it's fake. Is yeah, like you know, we're not

(10:11):
typically uh like conspiracy theorist people, but as far as
like what a lot of people have been talking about
is with both the n L Electric Company UM, with
the fire that happened on their their staircase right there

(10:32):
fire escape UM, and there was a number of suspicious
things about it. You know, it's started on the eleventh floor,
so it's like, how could a protester do that? And
I don't know, UM, And of course it only burned
that the fire escape and it didn't touch anything about
the main building and there's so there's a lot of
suspicion here UM of that. And then uh, the idea

(10:57):
that possibly it was the police, so the government who
started that as in a way to justify um, bringing
in the military and all of that and starting the curfew.
And what's that thing is very similar is uh these
five buses that were burned outside of our apartment. UM.

(11:21):
It was very strange because yes, there's there's almost never
five buses all right next to each other on the
street in the corner and UM. And then there's also
been videos that have been passed around what'sapp and UM
social media where you see that these busses were like discontinued,
so they were already like in bad situation, their bad shape.

(11:42):
And then there's a video that's been passed around of
the police like escorting one of these busses, like very slowly,
almost like they're escorting it here so they can burn
it and again use it as justification, um to ratchet
up the police response. So it's hard to say, and
you know, you don't want to be a conspiracy theorist,

(12:04):
but certainly there's uh, there there's suspicious things happening in
that regarded and on the street here. Almost every chile
and that we've talked to has has said that they
pretty much believe that it was the police that that
we're doing that. And in terms of what you've seen
in person from the police response to all this, how

(12:25):
would you how would you describe how you've watched the police,
uh deal with the protests so far? Like what have
you seen? Um? Just a lot of tear gas, a
lot of um the water cannons, mostly tear gas. Uh.
Just in in our experience, we've been kind of playing

(12:48):
it safe. We weren't getting really too too far into
the extreme protest. UM. We kept trying to go to
the center to Plaza Talia, but we kept getting pushed
back by tear guys us every time. UM. So. And
we've seen videos of extreme violence, the police beating people

(13:09):
and it's even hitting them with their cars, extreme stuff
and shooting them. Yeah, and there's been a lot of
videos we've seen on social media of the police shooting
innocent protesters not doing anything. But as far as what
we saw with our our own eyes, um, mostly just
a lot of tear gas. But sometimes it would be

(13:31):
just like peaceful protesters and the police would drive by
and literally throw a tear gas out the window a
canister and then drive away. So it's also it's also
interesting some people have been commenting that it's a little different.
It seems different the police strategy this time in comparison

(13:52):
to previous protests, whether they're not so much like cantling
the protesters or um, not so much getting into one.
I want physical like fistfights, um, which is a kid.
Some people are saying, you know that they watched the
protesters to get more extreme and burn more things and loot,

(14:15):
so that that justifies what they're doing. Yeah, and divide
the people because right now you have the more extreme
external people going and staff destroying the city, destroying the
pharmacy or the supermarket, and the people like us that

(14:38):
we take the the store when you shake with the
spoon all day and and when the police, um, you
can see the police and you need to run. So
uh So the government, I think they want to divide
the feeling of the people, the feeling of the protests

(15:02):
and the union of the people and um yeah, um,
so yeah, they're they're just trying to divide the people
so that the people who might sympathize with the protesters
will say, no, they've gone too far. They started to
be burning things or or taking down h street lights

(15:24):
or or looting, um supermarkets, um so. Yeah, and uh
as for this curfew, like how long can you see
it last? It's so extreme it doesn't seem like civil
life could continue if it goes on for too much longer. Yeah, well,

(15:44):
it just started last night. Last night it started in o'clock,
and then tonight they started at seven o'clock. So it
is very extreme and the like I was saying to
you uh in texts that I mean, if it if
it were to go on for two more weeks, it
would be insane. I can't imagine that that would happen.
It would shut down the entire city. Um. But at

(16:06):
the same time, I don't like tonight's protests were crazier
than last night. I don't know. I don't see how
it stops because Panierra doesn't seem like everything from the
government has been just attacking the protesters, not taking any
responsibility for the action of the police. Yeah, and I

(16:28):
don't know if that he shanged the price of the
ticket boss, if we are going to record the peace
in the city, the people have has too much angry,
So I don't know if we are going to be
confor um like satisfied. Panierra has mentioned that he might

(16:54):
um he might freeze the price increase for the Metro,
but at this point it's like that's not going to
be enough to satisfy people, because, as we mentioned, the
protest is about things much worse than the metro fare.
So uh yeah, I mean, like, I don't think people
will stop protesting in less Panera resigns. The people are

(17:16):
out there shouting and calling for his resignment, resignation, and um,
you know, I don't obviously I don't think he wants
to do that either. And if you could send out
a message to people from around the world, Americans in
Europeans and everyone else not in Chile listening to this,

(17:36):
what is it that you want other people to know
about what's happening in your country? UM, I don't know.
When when we live in um in Colombia. Um, the
most uh come on stuff that the people ask us.

(18:00):
It was why we leave Chile when Chile is so good,
so good country and all the system is so so good.
But the problem is that the problem is Chile has
a lot of problems for a long time, almost started

(18:25):
with the queue and we didn't have any solution for this.
So yeah, we are not a gay. We have problems.
We have a huge problems in the world. Uh, didn't
know any like that. So yeah, I guess I would

(18:48):
just say to people that, UM, I hope that people
are aware of what the Chileans are protesting for, and
that they understand that it's not about the match row fair.
It is not only about paying ten cents more, um,
that it's about deeper, profound issues at that are at

(19:12):
the core of this country, um, like for example, still
having the constitution that was written by a dictator and
things like that. UM. And so yeah, like Stephanie was saying, uh,
kind of that people maybe need to understand that that

(19:33):
life is really not so easy in Chile, or or
maybe it is easy um for of the country, but
a lot of the people here are really struggling and uh.
And the minimum wage is really really low and uh
and there's a lot of fundamental problems and and that's

(19:53):
why I think this is happening. So I would just
ask people to, um, unders stand a little bit about
the other issues with them, with the constitution and the
corruption and the pension plans and the minimum wage and
all of those. And and even though I don't condone

(20:18):
looting or violence or anything like that, UM, I would
ask that people have some some empathy for the people
who are out here protesting for a better life. And obviously,
I think that the most well known protests occurring in
the world right now are the ones in Hong Kong,
and I think the tactics there, I've seen them used

(20:40):
encrypted by protest movements in a number of other countries
that are going on right now. Have you seen that
have any impact on the tactics people are using on
the ground, UM. I know that I've seen a lot
of people sharing videos on social media about like the
Hong Kong protesters. UM, I like diffusing the tear gas canisters.

(21:05):
You know, they'll put a traffic pone on top of
it and then pour some some sort of chemical solution
in there and it it neutralizes it. So I know
that I haven't actually seen ay Chilean's do that, but
I know a lot of people were talking about that. UM,
and well we have seen we were just being watched
by a drone. UM. But I don't think the facial

(21:26):
recognition here in Chile is as strong as Hong Kong. UM.
But yeah, I think that part of it is. UM,
what's happening in Hong Kong and what's happy in Ecuador
right now is probably probably influencing the protesters here. Um.
And it seems just in the last week that protests
have started in a number of other countries. UM. Is

(21:50):
there any sort of feeling, at least from you, that
this is part of kind of a global You know,
you mentioned earlier in the interview that a lot of
some of the problems that are happening in Chile right
now are are similar to someone that we're dealing with
in the United States and others, just like concentration of wealth.
Do you have a sense that, like the mass uprising
is going on in a number of nations, are all
sort of part of something global that's bigger than just

(22:13):
the movements in the individual countries. UM, I don't know.
I would like to thank so, UM. I would like
to think that, you know, hopefully we are opening our
eyes to the failures of neoliberalism. But UM, I don't know.

(22:36):
I don't know, if I don't know if there's there
is a grander movement here sick I started. Still, yeah,
but I don't connect. Movement doesn't clar am super milio.

(23:08):
So another thing is that, Um, we have the left
maybe is growing stronger and um, using more forceful methods
because of the growth of the extreme rights in in
uh you know, all over the world, um, but especially

(23:29):
feeling that in South America, UH with in Brazil and
then also in Chile where you have, um, someone like
Caste who was a presidential candidate who is extremely to
the right, even more so than the current president. And
and so I think that the the the maybe in

(23:53):
some ways the left is responding to that and a
fear of the extreme authoritary and return to dictatorship, right
like you have um with Bosonaro in Brazil or you
know cast who who who knows could be president of
Chile one day. Well, thank you both very much for

(24:13):
your time. I really appreciate you talking with me today.
UM cool man. Yeah, that's all I wanted to get
into right now. UM. Obviously I'll be in touch with
you as I figure out kind of my schedule and
and please do keep me updated on on y'all and
what you see happening outside your door. Okay, Yeah, definitely,
I'm happy to send you some photos if you make

(24:34):
it down here. Um, well, we'll show you around and
and yeah, send me a link to your podcast. Yeah, absolutely,
Thank you both so much for your time. Okay, cool man,
you have a good one, you too. By Okay, I'm back.
And that was the Chile interview, and next we have
my interview with Jody Ayoub over in Lebanon, So I'm

(24:55):
going to play that now. Hey Joey, Hey, Hey, sorry,
is this a good time still? Yeah? I'm doing good.
How are you doing today? Yeah? Uh? Well, UM, I
guess we should just get into it. I'm I'm trying to.

(25:18):
I'm doing as much reading as I can to try
to understand what's happening um in Beirut right now. Um.
And you know, obviously, UM, there's a lot to keep
track of. You know, I've been, I've been. I've been
covering Iraq and Syria for years, and I would say
I barely have a minimal level of competence in either
of those nations politics. So I'm pretty new to focusing

(25:39):
on what's happening in Beirut. Um. From what I've listened
to or been able to read, it seems like, um,
like the thing that the news is crediting for these
uprising or for the uprising might not be the right word,
but for these protests is attacks on what's app um
when I've I've listened to or read things that other

(26:00):
people in the area have written. Um, it seems like
the wildfires that swept the country, and like the fact
that this helicopter fleet that was purchased by you know,
volunteers and then like allowed to kind of, um decay
into obsolescence. Like the fact that just in general the
government has been very ineffective at dealing with major problems

(26:20):
like those wildfires is a much bigger reason for the protests. Um.
But I'm interested in kind of your telling of like
why this has all happened, um and sort of how
it's how it where you see things as being at
right now. Yeah, So it's it's a bit of both,
and obviously it's much more than that. At the same time,

(26:41):
the wildfires that was last Monday, so that's the fourteenth,
the night of lasted about eight hours and it was
what hectares. Yeah yeah, and those putting that we lost
basically years worth off peas lost usually, so I think
there was something that clem against peas. That's horrible. That's

(27:07):
usually an average Yeah. Uh So that obviously pissed a
lot of people off because the government was utterly incapable
on reading whatever we used to deal with it. You
had pretty much we haven't had seven servants paid in
like twenty years. Of these all volunteer forces, and you
had you even had like this a defense forces from
the Palestinian camps that stepped up. They helped, and you

(27:28):
had basically volunteers just doing it themselves. There wasn't really
anything until two things happened that put them off. One
is Greece cyclists in Jordan basically sent some you know,
helicopters and whatever. And the other thing is we got
lucky because it started gaining the day after. Yeah, so

(27:49):
that's pretty much why, like we the damage was more
or less limited, if you want. And so the fact
that after all of this, just like a day later
or something, the first thing the government can think of
the ing to impose it acts on what'sapp, which is
obviously free service that people use because actual phone services
are extremely expensive in Lebanon. That was kind of you know,

(28:10):
as everyone has been saying that, you know, that whole
sort of book becomes back then, and then you had
protests on that like that Thursday evening. So that's basically
a week now. And in that protest, you had lots
of gold blogs, you had basically some of the usual
protests that we have been seeing before. And during that protest,

(28:31):
one of this if you want symbols, that became this. Uh.
I don't know the point of unity, I guess is
there was a bodyguard of one one politician took out
his gun, started scaring people. People were not scared, they
were actually fighting back, and then he had this woman
who kicked him. Uh. And that became this sort of

(28:52):
meme and it became super popular and that kind of
galvanized everything. And then after that it became sort of
like a daily so more people come down, there's a
bit of a quassion than the next day. Even more
people come down a familiar story if you if you
see what I'm going with this and now how it's
the number eight and people are sitting the streets and

(29:13):
it's way more than justin my roots. And it was
you know, it was the biggest protests so far. We're
something like a quarter of the entire population that got
out into the streets. Am I am? I right on that.
It was like a million some odd people. Yeah, yeah,
that's the numbers I've seen. Is something like a million,
like one point two million to one point seven million,

(29:34):
and Lebanon is something like five million or six million
if you want to us as well. That's almost unbelievable
and percentage of the computation. Yeah, I can't imagine protests
of that scale ever occurring in the United States, Like
it would literally be one of the most significant happenings
in the history of our nation. Does does it feel
like that to you, Like this is one of the

(29:56):
most important things that's happened in the history of Lebanon. Yes,
for like for two reasons, of even three seasons, I
was involved, So I kind of give some backcount here.
I was involved in the protests those that follow the
waste crisis, as in as in like organizing its early weeks.

(30:18):
And one thing that happened then that it's not happening
now is that back then it was really central centralized
to Baywood, and you sort of had like a sort
of middle class um focused to it. If you want.
Now it is completely spontaneous, there's actually no organizers, and
it is babout is actually not even the most impressive one.

(30:38):
You have protests in Tripoli that have been going on
every single day. You have protests in nobody here in
the end of our valley in um zoom zoom must
and um shrump and sue here in the South. I'm
trying forgetting many other places. You pretty much like have
over a hundred or two hundred hundred vote blocks every
single day right now. Uh. And it is utterly spontaneous.

(31:02):
It's not there's not there's no organization behind it. So
that's like really one of the main I kind of
mentioned both at the same time, the fact is not
centralized in Bayboot and the fact that it's it's spontaneous
and you have much more of an awareness if you
want that, like we tried. It kind of led to
more or less good stuff in twenty sixteen, but not enough.
Like the Baywood Madinity campaign during the municipal elections of

(31:24):
Baywood kind of hinted that it was things were going
in the right direction. But then you had the elections
last year and I think we had like one independent
or two independents that are actually got in parliament, and
that was about it. Because the whole system usually Lebanon
is univided between much eight coalitions and much vote in coalition.

(31:45):
They kind of came together last year to defeat a
civil society foret and they've been doing this time and
time again. The current government is a government that historically
has actually been of parties that were actually opposed to
one another. How it is a future movement and jam
one bestie is pre patriotic movement, not to mention, I'm uh,

(32:05):
you know, these are coalitions that kind of get formed
on and often it sence depending on the circumstances. And
what can you tell us about sort of the nature
of how the security forces have responded to this. I
can tell you that, like a lot of what I've
seen on Twitter has been you know, there's been some
pictures of like Lebanese soldiers, you know, with tears in

(32:27):
their eyes. Uh. And I guess sort of the thing
we're led to take out of that is that, Um,
even the Lebanese like police and military, very sympathetic to
the protests. Um. I I can't tell what's actually happening
on the ground. So I'm wondering what is your what
is your take on that? Oh that's not ideal? No,

(32:56):
And I mean, oh sorry you you cut out for
a second. Um, could you start your answer to that.
You heard the question right, Yes, sorry, Yeah, it depends
on So it depends on when and where. You did
have some instances where the Lebanese army was sort of uh,
his saint like it did it actually stood in between

(33:17):
corotesters and what we would call shabbihas or some elements
of the Sectain parties that are basically lad loose to
intimidate people, if not the worse. But in other cases,
like when we were do you guess last week, that
was living his army as well doing it. So it
really depends on when and where. There is definitely a
sentiment I think among Lebanese protesters. I don't share it personally,

(33:40):
but it's definitely the majority that, um, you basically need
to defend the army and try and get them on
your side in a sense at least individual and individual's capacity.
That hasn't happened. I don't think it will happen, but
that hasn't happened as if now, because I wanted to
read on this that the main difference between the army

(34:01):
in Lebanon and the army in other places in the
Middle East North Africa is that the army in Lebanon
is not the song before the song is forced in Lebanon.
That's Hesballa and every like. Basically, you know, everyone knows that,
and so it's not seen as uh oh, you know,
we might have a military coup or anything like that,
because that's not really in the realm of of reality

(34:23):
if you want. So, most of the violence, again depending
on where we're talking, but quite a lot of the
most brutal anyway violence has come from the sectarian parties.
So yesterday there was lots of violence in nobody m
by Hesvola and I'm a gangs basically shapiha, and you
have something like training five or thirty people who are

(34:44):
injured and had to go to the hospital. And in
the evening yesterday you had also again i'll just use
the word shapiha of the three Patriotic movement in another
area not too far from where I live, that attacked
people as well. Actually I'm not sure how many people
were injured in that one. It wasn't as serious as
the one in the South, but it was fairly serious
as well. So you do have these tensions between a

(35:08):
a spontaneous um if you want sense sense of the
fact that we're getting at the point where we can
no longer tolerate thirty years of this. You know, two
days ago was the thirtieth anniversary commemoration whatever after Toteve Agreement,
the agreement that was signed in that ended Delibanese Civil War,

(35:31):
and they signed it in the city off and Saudi Arabia,
and that a system sort of codified sectarianism even more
than it was before the war. It did a number
of things I won't get into now it's not that prelevant,
but what it did really is make it almost basically
impossible for anyone to identify for in any other way

(35:54):
other than with your sect. So the fact that I
am from a certain sect, it doesn't matter if I
am a believer or not, in atheists or not, None
of these things matter. What matters is that this, this
is your sect, and so you vote according to that,
and you vote according to sect and according to where
your family is supposedly originally from. So for example, I

(36:16):
can vote in a Shefi, but I don't live in
a Vie. I live in a different part of Lebanon.
And that's part of the reason why it's been so
difficult to really organize, because, for example, when there was
a municipal elections in two thousands sixteen, uh, something like
a quarter of storry. Like, there's four times more people
who actually live in baby Woods than people who are

(36:39):
adjusted to to vote in bay Woods. So you have
many of my friends who live and I don't live
in Baywood, but they lived and they live in baby Woods,
and so they were helping organized people who are officially
registered in Baywood, including people who don't live there, to
vote there. So that's kind of just like a small
example of why it's been so difficult on all levels

(37:01):
to really organize for an alternative to the sectank system
that we have now. And it does seem like what
we're seeing. And again, you know, this is my my
perception as very much an outsider, that some of this
sectarianism is starting to fade um in the face of
kind of an understanding that more solidarity between groups is

(37:24):
necessary if you're going to actually deal with sort of
the problems that are making it so expensive to just
live a basic life and let it on. Is that
is that what you feel you are seeing or would
you say I'm kind of off base there, No, No,
that's definitely what's happening that that's really been that is
the most explorant thing that's happening, and that's why it
really feels different than before. Again, as someone like I've

(37:45):
been involved in protests since I think two thousand and
ten was my first one, and I went I went
to the very defenced thousand eleven. There was some stuff
in between, and then two thousands fifteen was the big one,
and then you had, as I said to us in
sixteen thousand eighteen, but there's nothing. Really what's happening now
Now you have a chance in triplely a Sooni majority
down the north saying like openly and people like in

(38:09):
the hundreds of thousands repeating that these chants like we
are with you nobody, which is a majority Shire area
until the death, and we are like we are I
don't know how to translate this, but we stand in
solidarity with nobody and with with you know, Bayhood and
and su and all of these other areas. And there
is very much a sense that, um, it's it's something

(38:33):
has been broken, like the in a good way, Like
there is a way of doing things that is extremely difficult.
That even if people stop contesting today, which I don't
think it's gonna happen anyway, that it is impossible for
the government to just continue and do things as they
have been doing so far. And one symbolic way that
that has been happening has been through extremely hood. If

(38:56):
you want, insults that people have been throwing against uh politicians,
like notably that this is the song that you have
been repeating about see, which is basically fuck his mother.
That's basically what it means. Yeah, and that that has
that has been repeated on against pretty much all major politicians,

(39:16):
including although much more shindy with someone like Hassan against
someone like Hassan and some of the other leaders that
have had this sort of most sectarian events to their politics,
even though they're all part of this extariance system. Now,
that's just the fact that like fuck your mother, you know,

(39:39):
essentially is a chance like that, you know you're talking.
Lebanon is particularly Beirut is kind of a very very
much a city of the world, but Lebanon, and again,
correct me if I'm wrong here, much more traditional in
a lot of aspects, like the fact that people are
saying things like this um that are so explicit and
so kind of obscene is a marker of how extreme

(40:02):
the situation has gotten. That that that that would even
be seen as acceptable like that that seems very um
shocking to me. Um. Yeah, I mean these insults are
very common, but they are not common towards the politicians.
They're not common towards people people that you usually you

(40:22):
would orm is like you would give them on a
griffics like sir and Mr Your excellency, you know, that
sort of thing. And the fact that you have people
explicitly when they're being interviewed like what if no one
if people who aren't going down to the seats what
they've been doing basically for the past week is just
opened some of the channels LBC for example, and you

(40:44):
have like the split sky into six different you know,
areas of Lebanon, and people just being interviewed and giving
their opinion. And the sense that you get, whether you're
on the seats or what you just at home, is
that there is something that is no longer taken for granted,
which is that these people have light time and time
and time and time again. And of course those in
civil society as you might call them, all the activists

(41:07):
or even the working classes that are the most affected,
these are known like no, none of this is serious. Sorry,
none of this is new, but there is something about
how all of these things happen at the same time
that I don't want to say that people just walk
up to day because obviously that's not how things happen.
But it's just that as we say, like the the

(41:28):
wall of fear, if you want, has been broken. That's
a bad translation, but that's basically what it means, and that, um,
we are getting to the point where even in Nobody,
which as I said, it's in the south very much
an area where has Well and Emma have a lot
of influence, where you have yesterday it was Ammal and
has Well as shop attacking protesters, and then the next

(41:51):
day people in Nobody, you go, there're still as we're speaking,
out on the streets and something like an hour ago,
two members of the municipal council often about a year
because of being forced by the people to his art essentially,
so you've been having these um pressures. And just before
we spoke, something like uh, just before speaking to us,

(42:13):
something two hours ago, the President Michionan also spoke and
it was such a contrast to what's been happening. It's
eight days after we started. He hasn't said a single
thing before now and the film, which it says, the
live but it is very obviously edited. You have lots
of different scenes that keep on changing. It's obviously in edit.

(42:35):
And he looks exhausted because he's fairly old, and what
he said is utterly disconnected from reality, Like he could
have said nothing and it would have made absolutely not different.
In fact, I think he just passed people more off
at this point. And let me let me think of
the right word to phrase this question. Um, do you

(42:58):
like what what is it that you think would be
most you know, most of the audience listening to this,
most of people listening this are going to be you know, Americans, Europeans.
What what would you say if you could try to
get just a couple of basic facts to them? What
is the most important thing for them to understand about
what is happening in Lebanon right now? And is there

(43:20):
any way for them to help and to express solidarity
with the Lebanese people who are currently protesting against their government.
Well for the latter is I guess a bit easier quickly,
like faster to answer, because there have been lots of
dis protests, So I would guess befo enshoy your support
to these people there because you're not the Lebanese U
pretty much everywhere. Um, So that's that's a second question.

(43:43):
The first question is if I need if I would
summarize it, there was a civil war in between n
and ninety ninety. Uh. I am of the generation that
was born right after I was one, but UH to
use it symbolically, to use that example in bit symbolically,
just before I was born, there was the Amnesty Law

(44:05):
that was passed which gave immunity to most crimes committed
during the civil war. So most people who ended up
in power after that were active participants in the civil war.
One of the most notorious member examples of that is
never hipl here was the leader of the Ammal movement
and has been leader of the Amal movements since the seventies.

(44:27):
He has been speaking of parliament since nine so he's
been speaking of parliament for my entire existence basically. And
this is someone like right now, there was a joke
before UH that you know, we're fighting against sectarianism, and
that means that the president, which currently has to be
a Christian and the Prime Minister has to be a
Sunni Muslim, and the steak of Parliament has to be

(44:49):
a Chiao Muslim. The joke was that even if even
if we get into a secular government, the member of
Steak of Arlims or it will still been a Selby
because he's been across all of the governments that have
passed so far in the past few still so decades.
So Lebanon has a sectarian system, a confessional system. I

(45:10):
guess it is the official world, but we just call
it which is sectarian, as if being sacked. And the
way that works is that it basically makes it impossible
to organize politically or even to vote outside of your set.
There might be some like you might be in, like
the sect being Christian, and you might vote for someone

(45:32):
who's a different kind of Christian, but it is almost
impossible to vote, for example, for it who is als
to New Usia, depending on when we're talking about the
municipal general elections and that sort of thing. So it
has kind of um consolidated differences that sort of were
thought out during the war. If you want, I'm grossly

(45:52):
over simplifying the Civil War here. Obviously, it consolidated these
identities and it made them. Impart, it made it impossible
for those of us who want to identify simply on
a civil level, like as only as any citizens. It
made it impossible for us to only do that. And
this is what the past street has basically been challenging.

(46:13):
And we've been seeing much more of a sentiment that
we are doing this as one people basically, and that
it doesn't matter whether you're Shias and you who's or Christian.
There are certain things that affect obviously everyone in corruption, poverty,
all of that, and we need to starve these and
one of the things I'm interested in, so I'm covering

(46:35):
obviously we're in the middle of, um a number of
different political uprisings around the world right now, a substantial
number um and I mean I know that in Catalonia
and to a lesser extent in Chile, the Hong Kong
protests have served as as a sizeable sort of like
inspirational factor in how people have approached resisting the government.

(46:58):
Have you seen any imp act in terms of like
the tactics of those protests on much being done right
now in Lebanon. I've seen some people talk about it,
and it was mentioned on the seats I've been going
to the baby with once and some people on Twitter
sharing these tactics on that people in Hong Kong have
been doing, but I wouldn't say that. Like one of

(47:21):
the issues that I think is common in Lebanon is
how in the world, Oh could you could you say again?
You cut off for a second? There? Yes, like there
there there is a sense and that you sort of
cut off from the world and that your links are

(47:42):
the dire spoga links. So you might have people who
know it, a bit about fans, a bit about Brazil
or America or Canada or whatever. But that's the extent
of how internationals things can get if you want. That's
the limit of it. So you don't have as much
of an influence from the rest of the world outside
of the Arab majority world. So you have had some

(48:05):
sentiments in UH from what I've seen, primarily in Tripolin
growth and in they route towards for example, sending solidarity
to to the Neese protesters at the time or two
iraqis right now, you have this a bit, but primarily
the overwhelming majority are simply focusing on what's in front
of them essentially, and so because this system that we're

(48:25):
talking about has really hampered Lebanon, in the Lebanese and
people who live in Lebanon as well, because don't forget
there are also Palestinians and Syrians and my domestic workers
and so on. It has hampered everything to the point
where it's just become impossible to look at anything else.
And so my hope is that we solve this issue now.

(48:47):
And I don't even think we're going to fully solve
it obviously, but we start putting cracks in the system,
and this will allow people in Lebanon. I think maybe
that's the optimist in me to sort of regain a
bit of confidence and that hopefully we can lead to
us learning more things in a more long term. It's
just that right now, the struggle has really been to

(49:10):
maintain the momentum every single day. That's stially been the
main thing. And because Lebanon is so divided by region,
you don't have a train or a metro or you know,
something that really links the region. Everything is just by
cod it's been very easy for the sectarian parties to
sort of luck off if you want an area from
the other, and that's sort of been what's happening but thankfully,

(49:34):
you know, through the Internet, social media, but also through
some of the coverage on the news, you've been able
we've been able to see what's been happening in other areas,
and that has sort of sancthened individual contests as well.
And that seems it's like, that's part of what seems
like we're kind of watching the worst nightmare of the
powers that be in Lebanon, Oica, which is these different

(49:56):
groups that have been split by sort of sect um
realizing that they all have much more in common with
each other as fellow working class people, as people who
have to you know, who can't count on um, you know,
stealing millions of dollars from the larger chunk of the country,
like the normal folks in Lebanon. Um realizing they have

(50:18):
much more in common with one another than with the
people who run the country. Um. That that seems like
what's happening, and it seems like the worst case scenario
for the people in charge. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely what's happening.
And actually go down some numbers to show what we're like,
what we're talking about when we're talking about the levels
of inequality in Lebanon. This is as of and it's

(50:41):
got worse worse it's worth and since the top one
per cent receives approximately quota of the total national income,
which means that the bottom fifty is left with ten
percent of the national income the bottom makes and this
is in US. The study was done in Uros. Bottom
makes about three thousand euros per year. The middle forty percent,

(51:02):
and this speaks to how there isn't there isn't a
really middle class anymore. You sort of have a class
that's in between. The middle forty percent makes eleven thousand
euros a year, and then it goes up and up
and up. The top ten percent makes eighty one thousand,
the top one percent makes three hundred and thirty four thousand,
and then the top zero point one percent makes one
point five million, and the top zero point zero zero

(51:24):
one percent makes forty seven million. So you would have
in it in it in a city like Tripoli, which
is one of the poorest, is third poor, is the
biggest city basically the second biggest city in Lebanon. And
as the pool is said that you have I think
two or three or four I can I kind of
keep losing kount of who's the billionaire and it was
a multi hundred millionaire billionaires in a Jimmy Harti and

(51:45):
and start having the abot from there and there are billionaires.
This is just an example. This is sort of the
sort of situation. And these are the numbers that we have.
There are numbers that we don't have. We don't know,
for example, on the side of Bottler, how much money
is coming for Iran. We don't know all of these numbers,
and we don't we don't know how much of the
money that these Lebanese politicians, warlords, oligogus, whatever, have, how

(52:09):
much of it is actually in Lebanon. You have people
that were mentioned in depend on my papers a few
years ago because they have you know, offshore accounts here
and there. So in Swiss banks are always mentioned as
but in the contest because it's so common for us
to just assume and obviously it's accurate that they have
so much money in Swiss banks. This this is just
really like a a taste of of this situation that's here.

(52:34):
So it's not just that people suddenly are realizing that
they're you know, old Lebanese and they have these things
in commons. It's not that in itself isn't really new.
It's more that the way the only ways people have
been able to mobilize so far because of the combination
of Stanism as we mentioned, which is consolidated and basically
made into law, but also the issues of the lack

(52:57):
of public space, the issues of it's very difficult to
actually physically get from one area to the other because
of that, because of the lack of public transports. Sorry,
it's been just exceremely difficult to kind of shape the
system hard enough to allow independence at least as a
start to get in and show just by example. It's

(53:19):
been basically impossible to show by example that an alternative
is possible. So the hope here is at least that's
what That's the sentiment that I'm getting that most people
are hoping that this government follows what comes after. It
depends on who you talk to. Some someone is sort
of some sorry, some people want this sort of technocratic
government that temporarily replaces it and then you have early elections.

(53:41):
Other people are just going for early elections directly, and
the they hope basically is that this time, just as
in last year we were we almost got a few
independence this time we will be able to do way
more because the people, the septaining warlords and oligogus that
united again as US, are extremely unpopular and this time,

(54:03):
hopefully or you know, next, in this imaginary future election,
they will be less able to mobilize in the same
way that they did before. Well, Joey, thank you so
much for talking with me today. Is there anything else
you wanted to talk about or wanted to mention before
we we draw this to a close. I would just

(54:24):
ask people to basically keep an eye out on what's happening.
I don't know if it will get worse. I don't
I'm hoping not, but it's very difficult to predict what
some of these sectarian parties how they will react if
they feel that the only thing they have to say
in power is to basically show some folks because they
all have a diminishas and that's obviously the worst case scenario.

(54:46):
The best case scenario is that the pressure is so
overwhelming and so um uh decentralized. So I'll mention this
as a last thing. The fact that it's so decentralized
means that if, for example, as Well wants to crack
down on people in Nabatia. You will have people in
Tripoli telling those people in Nabati that we stand with you.

(55:08):
And there is this popular I think it went viral
video of in Tripoli the third Night or something, people chanting.
Before chanting Scott read the scottanism that people want to
the downfall of the regime, which obviously have been a
popular chant obviously from two thousand eleven. Now he adopted
much more strongly in Lebanon. Besides that, they said something

(55:29):
along the lines of if they shut down all the squares,
our square will remain open. The triple the squares, I
can't know, uh, And that's sort of the end, not
that I can, like they know that, I can end
on because it really shows that it would be very difficult,
not impossible, but very difficult for their ruling establishment, these
sectarian warlords or regogus to shut all of this down

(55:52):
that I think is very difficult for them to do. Well.
Thank you, Joey, Thank you for talking with me, and
and thank you for sharing um your impressions of what's
what's going on in your country. I really do appreciate it.
Thank you, thanks very time. Yeah, and last we have
my interview with Kabbad, so I asctually conducted this through WhatsApp.

(56:12):
I asked her some questions and she responded to me.
So the first question was what is your understanding of
the agreement reached by the SDF, which are the military
forces of Rojaba in the Syrian regime. The memorandum between
the STF and the city and regime is a military
and not relevant to the political status of self adinistration. Actually,
the withdrawal of the American did not give a choice
to the court. Then dealing with the asset and the region,

(56:35):
the raging forces are located in Kobani Men which I
necessity as well. It's a present and their headquarters and
has a gun. Commisially cities the officials of the self
constrationcies that it's a duty of the city and government
to protect Syria international border from the Turkish occupation. To
avoid having the same scenario of offering. I talked too
many people from commisially about that. They said they are

(56:57):
not happy to receive the regime after all these years
of self autonomous, but at the end region might be
better than Turkey, and others said they will live if
the regime take over this area, including me as many
of them participate in the two thousand and eleven demonstration
against asset. The second question I asked Abbat was how
do you believe closer integration of Rojaba to the Syrian

(57:20):
state will affect the progress of the women's revolution? Regime
is representing the patriarchy system. On the contrary, Rojaba is
representing the woman revolution. Woman of Rojaba built last eight
year specific system for the woman in all levels military,
economically and politically, and they made impact in the education
via teaching digitology, which is a woman's science on the

(57:42):
mentality of the new generations. In addition, the implementation of
the co presidency system and all the institutions starting from
coming to the highest official ranks allowed very effective participation
of a woman to lead this region beside them and
interview it the by theality co Presidency officers Siety Protection
Forces in Al Jazeera kanton about this subject and she said,

(58:04):
we know how to protect our servis now after a
years of experience, and we are not afraid of a
region coming back. It's obvious that the woman of Rojaba
will not lead their gainst easily, but there is a
great risk on the woman evolution in case the regime
take over Java, I do believe that the region will
first startet the woman specifically because this is what makes

(58:26):
Rojava unique on a global level. Now, the third question
I asked about was the ceasefire has written appears to
give Turkey all at once and leave nothing for the
STF for Rojava. Do you believe it will actually be followed,
even the agreement being implementing under the American monitoring. But
we saw the first the morning of the Truth had
been bridged by Turkey and their backed forces. Turkey remote

(58:49):
parts of the Wall and the seregoniest city and entered
their backed forces. Heavy clashes took place in the city
beside the Shilling as a result of the Turkish. Each
of the Truth's last three days there were twenty five
fighters being killed and seventeen injured. On the other side,
seventeen civilians as a result, lost their lives as a

(59:11):
result of the bombardment of the Turkish. Yesterday, there was
a stop of bombardment for some time, which allowed the
medical teams to evacuate a lot of injured and martyrs,
both fighters and civilians. This afternoon, the STF announced they
withdraw all the forces from Sareknya without details about the

(59:32):
agreement yet and the military analysis the CIS fire. It
doesn't mean surrounding by the SDF as there is no
clear details about the agreement, but that doesn't mean that
Turkey will stop the operation as soon it gets the
saves one area between Serekanya until a Viett in thirty
five kilometry depths, as we see on the ground that

(59:54):
Turkey wants to destroy the safe administration system and Rajava.
There is a report through report right now saying that
there is a discussion between Turkey and Russia about Kobani.
Even so, this is why it doesn't mean surrounding by
the STF and it doesn't mean that turk was gonna
stop even if they get that area. The fourth question

(01:00:15):
I asked about was how has the Autonomous region handled
the flow of so many refugees from villages under attack
by Turkey. October nine, when the Turkish bombardment start against
all Rojava cities, which is located on the Assyrian Turkish border.
That led to a massive waves of the IDPs home
mode from their cities to the villages in the south

(01:00:36):
to be saved from the Turkish shilling like Derek uncommish cities,
while others population moved to Hassaka City that is far
from the border, which is Seregania, until tamer until Abba
which is more close to the Hassaka city and those
three last cities are most affected by the Turkish attack.
The numbers of the I d P s it's it's

(01:00:57):
increasing and until now it's get our two hundred thousands
persons who have been displaced from their houses. Self administration
municipality of the HASSCA our receiving basically the IDPs and
they get some support from the U N Agencies, NGOs
and local associations as they are transferring the schools to

(01:01:19):
as shelters, but there is a lack of services. I
went to in the past days to these shelters and
there is uh. Every time, new numbers increasing very fast
and the humanitarian situation get worse and the response is
so slow comparing to their needs. In addition, it's it's
wars as a results of the Turkish attack on the

(01:01:40):
virtual centers. As the Turkish air strike they hit the
unlocked dam in Surrecani which is feeding the WATA to
a city of Ceregani and Hassca until timer and that's
result a cut of water three days from those cities.
And this situation of the population and the I d

(01:02:00):
P s, it's get wars as a result of that. Also,
I met many families and most of them basically from
turl Abbas Regani and even some of them have been
many times displacement as they were from a frin. I
think if the international response is limited, that will gonna
lead to a humanitarian crisis. Even I met the head

(01:02:23):
of the West Municipality of the Haseka, Mohammed Shammy, and
he was explaining to us how it's there is a
pressure on the city and there is no support. For example,
he gave an example about the needs of the bread.
He said, we use it to back thirty five tones
of the floor daily for Hasseka. Only last days we
are baking fifty tons and we cannot cover the needs

(01:02:45):
of the population. So the situation every day, every hour
gate wars and wars and there is a gap and
and all the organizations have to respond to these needs.
The fifth question I asked how about was how constant
a presence is Turk which air power? Ever, a lot
of stories of convoys being bombed. Has this changed the
way you travel during the day. Actually, while now I

(01:03:07):
am trying to answer this question of yours, there is
a plane. We're not sure if it in COMMISSI S guy,
We're not sure it's it's belonged to home because it's
it's just confusing. It's so low and it's clear that
it's not drawns. Maybe it's a helicopter. Actually I cannot
identify which kind of planet is, but it's there because

(01:03:28):
despite the Pentagon statement that they were going to have
no flies on even before Java, even before the Turkey
attacks started, but on October nine, So when the first
Turkish start was jets in Surregani, I was there and
I witness it and it was the first hit by
the air striking. And since then all other kinds of

(01:03:49):
the war plans have been used. But the most affected
city of the air striking it was Seregania antel Abbott.
Last night, the injuries who have been in created by
the cities, I met some doctors who are treating them
and they told me, like most of the wands is
the results of the air striking and shilling. So it

(01:04:09):
doesn't stop because in a different occasion, the STF called
the Americans for no fly zone and they were they
were going to fight handling the fighting on the ground,
but there was no response until this moment. In addition
to the Turkish drones and the air strike, that's really
restricted movement inside the cities and on the way. Also

(01:04:31):
one of the main reason now it's affecting on the movement,
it's the EICI sleeper sales. Even in the first day
there is because they became very active recently and there
is a sources confirmed that they opened the way to
the Turkish packed forces which laid that they controlled on
the m for how A highway and as a result

(01:04:52):
they executed the civilians, including the co presidents co presidents
of the Syrian Future Party have in Halaf the Turk
they didn't stop and there is a no flies on
until this moment from any side for the Java. The
sixth question I asked about was how does press access
to the SDF now differ from how it was during

(01:05:13):
the fighting against ISIS. Is it still possible for journalists
to reach the front line. Actually, if we're gonna talk
about the operation against ISIS and how it's have been
globally covered by all the media because at that time
there were the s d A forces. They provide a
protection and the coordination for them on the ground and

(01:05:33):
and they managed to cover all the operation without any
you know, like the cases that they for the journalists
to lose their life or anything like that. While in
this operation via the Turkish attack there is last ten
days for journalists lost their lives and other sevenths have
been injured. Because now even they limited the access. It's

(01:05:57):
limited for the media because of the security reason as
there is a shelling air strike is the slipper sales
and also there is a fear from the Syrian regime
present also so there isn't no corporation in a way
because of that, we can say like this operation can't
be covered as it have been covered like the operation

(01:06:18):
against ISIS. Unfortunately, and the seventh question I asked Hobart was,
of course what can people outside Rojava do to help?
I think the people of the outside can help Rojaba,
and specifically all the feminist movements have to rise up
for otherwise we as a woman all over the world
might face the risk to lose the woman revolution. Any

(01:06:41):
activity to support Rojaba, like demonstrations, donation by Code Turkish
Goods and rise the awareness of the Western community about
what is Rojaba facing currently. It's a genocide, it's an
ethnic glancing, and it's a demographic demographic changing and everyone
have to take the responsibilities in order to make some steps.

(01:07:04):
And that's we're gonna help Rojaba for sure. Okay, And
that's all the interview audio. Again, I'm Robert Evans. You
can find sources for this episode behind the Bastards dot com.
You can find me on Twitter at I right, okay,
you can find us on Twitter at at Bastards pod.
And that's that's it. That's the episode. Go, go do
something useful.