September 16, 2010 • 28 mins
Toll roads, turnpikes, toll routes -- whatever you call them, they serve the same purpose: They're roads you pay to drive on. In this episode, Scott and Ben discuss the surprisingly ancient origins of toll roads and their evolution in the United States.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond with
car Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hey, everybody,
welcome to car Stuff. I'm Scott Benjamin, the auto editor
here at how stuff works dot com, and my name
is Ben Bowland. I am a video writer here at
(00:21):
the same website. Never gets old, Never gets old, Never
gets old. Scott, you live up north of the city,
and so you get to pass one of our cities.
Will we call it famous? Um? Infamous? Infamous? One of
our city's infamous landmarks a road called Interstate four hundred,
(00:44):
which is in transition technically because originally this road was
built to be a toll road. And the story that
still is still is the story that we all heard
in Atlanta was that this would be a toll road
only for such a time as as was sufficient for
(01:04):
it to break even, um, you know, defined as offsetting
the cost it took to construct it, which seemed like
a great idea. Yeah, such a great idea. In fact,
that they have yet to make this a non toll road. Yeah.
I know a little bit about this too. I think
we've got a couple of articles here about, um, you know,
why that happened. And it's still a toll road, and uh,
(01:27):
it makes sense, but it's one of those things like
they're trying to catch up with the cost and having
to do that, they had to spend more money, and
to spend more money, they needed to keep the tolls
up longer. So it's like it just keeps feeding itself,
and it looks like we're gonna be stuck with our
toll road for at least another couple of years. It's
either a very poor calculation on someone's part or absolutely
(01:50):
brilliant it is. I don't know how to look at it.
Is it, uh, strategic failure or strategic triumph? I don't know.
It's you're you're right. But that's one example, and there's many,
many examples across the US of of toll roads. Of course,
people probably know what we're talking about right now. Yeah,
roads that you pay to drive on, alternately known as
a turnpike. Turnpike, that's right. Um, what else turnpike, toll road,
(02:14):
toll route, route, toll route, ye court, there's a toll
corridor or something people talk about. Yeah. Well, now, astute
listeners will remember Scott that earlier, in a different episode,
you and I briefly talked about the origin of the
word turnpike exactly. I had that one in front of me.
(02:34):
Let's let's run it down that it comes from the
etymology breakdown of this thing, and it comes from the
early fifteenth century, which really it meant a spiked road
barrier for just defense, and it comes from the words
turn and pike. It was a shaft um uh. It
met a piece of timber really that was laying across
the road. It was on a um on an axis
(02:57):
and you had to pay a toll in order to
use the road, and they would turn the pike out
of the way and allow you to pass through under
the road. Um that let's say, trying to think of
when that was. That was probably just look at my notes,
fifteen forties somewhere around there. And um, they borrowed horses
from foot roads and that's why they were able to,
you know, they had to put up a gate and
(03:17):
say they can't travel on this road. This is for
foot traffic only. Um. Well, it led to an idea
that it meant a barrier to stop passage until until
the tolls paid. So that meant um and they called
it a road with a toll gate, which was you know,
part of the evolution. Yeah, that's right. Uh. Then that
came around um, the sixteen seventies, I believe, and then
(03:39):
in seventeen uh they shortened the word to UM, I'm sorry,
hang on. In seventeen forty five they shortened it, uh
to turnpike road. So I was a little convoluted here
and what's going on? But basically got to the point
where it's a turnpike, and the turnpike now that we
have had it originally meant the toll booth. Now it
(04:00):
means the road itself, the road entire exactly, and that
didn't come until like eighteen fifties, which is interesting because
we're going to hopefully there are other people that were
as surprised as I was to learn how old toll
road technology is, or at least the idea. And one
thing that also will surprise a lot of people, I hope, right.
(04:23):
That's the point in the show, is that the United
States has actually a very long and storied history with
toll roads. Because let's see, um, people will usually remember
the date of our country's independence in seventeen seventies six
and Scott, I want to ask you to guess when
(04:45):
the first toll road was built. But you already know.
I already know. So let's just break it down. The
Philadelphia and Lancaster Lancaster Turnpike. Uh, that was built in
seventeen ninety two. Holy cow, that's so. That's toll roads
are way older than cars, older than the interstate system,
(05:11):
older than us by far. Well okay, maybe they're a
lot older than you, not so much older than me.
So this thing, uh, this thing, if you think about it,
was almost a model of a model of good estimates
and well done building because it only took about what
(05:32):
a couple of years to complete, and people just thought
this was the bee's knees of highways. Right. I love
when you says knees, thanks man. That's that's view as
always wanted to. And and the crazy thing about it
is that this was actually very successful. Um, which is yeah,
you would think. Okay, one one I mean to interrupt,
(05:54):
but one quick thing is that you know, up to
this point, roads have been free. Yeah, and suddenly they've
got to adjust the idea that hey, I'm gonna have
to pay to use this the stretch road that you
know I was able to walk over. Well, actually, it's
probably a new road at that point somewhere somewhere convenient.
It's a convenient route rather than taking the long way around.
This is a straight, direct path right through. Therefore, you're
(06:15):
gonna pay a little bit extra to have that privilege
of that, that ability to go straight to where you're
gonna go. It's a convenience. Yeah, and you've got your
money's worth because it went over sixty miles, so sixty
two miles, and eventually the state picked it up and
then it became part of what we call the Lincoln
Highway in US thirty today. No kidding, Yeah, I've got
(06:39):
I've got some jokes later, but that that part was serious. Uh.
And so let's fast forward a little bit. We also
have talked about the folks, the good folks who built
or largely built the Dwight D. Eisenhower Interstate syste Oh, yeah,
that was a good one. Yeah, we're talking about Fairbank
and McDonald's right, Herbert Fairbank, Thomas McDonald. Interesting story, Scott,
(07:02):
These guys thought toll roads were lame. Well they didn't
say the word lame, but why did they think that?
Because they were they not federally funded free roads or
what I mean? Well, it's yeah, it's kind of like
some people's attitude with uh, the internet or anything where
there is one free service offered and then a paid alternative.
(07:23):
You know, The question, which is logical is why would
anyone pay to take this one route when there are
parallel free roots, you know. But of course you've already
got that, You've already got the nail on the head
with convenience. I just want to show you how poorly
they estimated this. Um, these guys, said McDonald and Fairbank,
(07:48):
believe that the Philadelphia to Pittsburgh cord Or toll cord
Or would carry a little bit more than seven hundred
cars a day maybe today. And uh that was the
official estimate in the US Bureau of Public Roads. And
oh buddy, oh buddy, they were wrong. They were they
(08:11):
were wrong. Oh way wrong. But I don't yeah, I
don't have I don't have the exact estimate now, but
needless to say, it was it was well over. Traffic
was pretty intense. Okay, I got it. You know that
this is something you mentioned something here that why would
people pay for a road when there's alternate roads that
you don't have to pay for it? Right? Yes, I've
(08:32):
got some don't forgive me if I'm breaking out of
the history of this thing here, we're coming up into
modern day. Yeah, we got with what I'm mentioned here. UM,
And I had never heard of this really, and it's
just my own, I guess, my own ignorance on this
subject because I, um, I just recently found out that
there are optional toll lanes in the United States, lots
(08:53):
of them. That is news to me. See, I didn't
know this, and that's because we don't live in a
state that has these optional toll lanes already. But we
might go on. Yeah, it's it's it's maybe happening here
in Georgia. Um. They're talking about adding optional toll lanes
along and I five seventy five in cobbent Cherokee Counties.
(09:13):
And that's right where I seventy five comes straight through,
you know, from all the way up in Michigan all
the way down to Florida. A lot of people make
that trip. But there may be some optional toll lanes
coming soon to that area. And uh, the estimated I
guess dollar This is just giving idea of how expensive
these projects are. The there was an elaborate project plans.
(09:34):
It's back down from this. But the first UM project
that was planned was priced between one point eight billion
and four billion dollars and I had never heard of
anything like this. But the DT rarely spends that much
money on any project at all, a single road project,
but they have backed it down to something like nine
million to one point one billion is the estimate for
(09:56):
the toll road. Yeah, that's right. It's a burround a
billion dollars. And how is it, Well, three or fifty
million of that is is taxpayer money. The rest would
be you know, private and collected through tolls. And you
know this this the road would fund itself. That's where
you get the you know, I don't know what the
cost would be. It doesn't mention in this article here. UM,
(10:16):
I can look at UM there's an example here from Indiana. Yeah,
Indiana is that there. Um, they're considering an optional toll
lane also on I sixty nine, which goes right into Indianapolis.
And uh they say that now that what's weird about
this one is not only is it an optional lane
(10:37):
optional toll lane, it would be um, a variable dollar
amount that you pay as you go through as well,
So depending on traffic, depending on the time, of day
things like that. It could vary from one to three
dollars like a real time congestion time exactly. And that
doesn't that that's not unusual either, which I found out.
I had no idea that this was happening. But there's
these variable rates that are going on everywhere else. I mean,
(10:59):
it says express tolanes are on a new idea. They're
used in San Diego, Orange County, California, Salt Lake City, Houston, Minneapolis, Denver, Seattle, Miami.
They're under construction right now in Dallas, Washington, d C.
And the San Francisco Bay area. And we may be
able to add while we're gonna say Indianta, Atlanta and
Indiana to this as well. And I think, you know,
there's probably more out there that I just don't have
(11:21):
in this article here, but um more that haven't gone
public yet. The idea behind this is and and why
would you pay it? Right? Because it's it's the exact
same stretch of road. It gives you the benefit that
let's say an HLV lane is to people right now,
That's what I was thinking. I was just thinking you
could do it individually, you could drive it alone, and
the other thing is that let's say that it's a
day I mean the people in this example here, they
(11:42):
said that, yeah, they could actually see it working because
let's say there's a day when they're coming home from
work and they don't know if it's going to take
them twenty minutes or an hour to get home, and
they've got to pick up the kids at the daycare center,
and there's that wide open express lane that if I
pay three dollars, I'm gonna make it there and save
myself the late fee. If the the daycare facility or um,
(12:03):
you know it's you've got a doctor's appointment, you have
to get home for that or or near home for that. Um.
A lot of people say that it may be called
the Lexus lanes, the Lexus land that you know, it
says it's going to create have and have not commuter separation, right,
And that's not the idea. They said that what they
find more often than not in these um these optional lanes,
(12:24):
is that you do get the people that are just
simply running late, or you know, parents that have to
be somewhere at a ballgame or something like that, or
the daycare cut off exactly. It's it's uh it's not
what they think. It's not just the wealthy who say,
you know, I'm going to drive my own lane. And
a lot of that depends on the dollar amount of
the toll. True, true, Yeah, because some of them, I mean,
the tolls can go way up in some reason. I
(12:44):
was looking at some here and I forget me, it's
in my notes somewhere, But some of these tolls are
up in the ten dollar range, um nine dollars for
you know, just for stretches of road, not not the
whole thing. I'm not talking from edge of state to
edge of state. I'm talking a short distance between exits,
like every ten miles exactly. Yeah, where if you don't,
if you were to follow the toll roade uh route
(13:06):
entirely to work, you may end up paying twenty five
bucks to get to work. Um ore droll our Georgia
toll here that we were just kind of talking about.
Um yes, okay, but let me let me say that toll.
I'm gonna go on the record with this, Scott. It
is so frustrating to have to dig through your car
(13:29):
for some change. Are we gonna have to fight here again?
Because are you sure? Yeah? Okay, you are you deep.
Let me ask you this bend. You get up to
the front of the lane and then dig around your
car and try to find the money. No, if I
if I haven't found it by the time I hit
the exit before the toll road, I take the exit.
Oh good, I'm glad to hear that, because I thought
I thought we might come to fisticuffs. No, I feel
(13:50):
like that's it happens. I understand what happens to some people. Um,
but I'm definitely not going to I'm not a line
hold upper, you know. Let's hold that's good. I didn't.
I didn't think you were. But you know, you have
to ask because you just never know, because I encountered
that every single day on my way, really not not
indirectly in front of me all the time. It happens.
Sometimes the person will realize they got in the you know,
(14:12):
the change only lane, and they have to get out
to the cashier, but they have to open the door
and go across go to another lane, which is terribly dangerous.
I woish they wouldn't do that. And um, the other
one I've seen recently a lot of people will get
out and ask the person behind them if they can
just borrow a dollar, which okay, yeah, yeah, that's not borrowing.
That's again you're not going to be faced friends, no,
(14:33):
and but I assume they're just paying for years also
if you give him a dollar, you know, but maybe whatever. Anyways,
I yeah, it's it's frustrated to me that that happens.
But we can't deny that toll systems overall in this
country are really effective. I think just between eighteen fifty
and nineteen o two, over a hundred toll roads were built. Really. Yeah,
(14:56):
it's it's just a financially, it's a very very good
decision for policymakers, at least in the short term, because
it allows you to get a quality of road that
might otherwise put your municipality or region in debt. Um
and it does still put them in debt, but much
(15:17):
even this uh this small, I mean, this is just
one toll gate on this road, four hundred fifty cents.
It's it's a standard flat rate for everybody. And you
can drive around there. They're talking about you can drive
around it. Oh you mean you mean exit and go
up the back way. I understand, Okay, God, I thought
you went through it without you know, I'm really cheap, man,
(15:37):
I have I have done that once. Intellectually I realize
I'm spending more on gas. But do you understand this
is when gas was cheaper. I understand, I understand, Yeah,
but go on that in two thousand seven. I have
figures here from two thousand and seven. I don't have
anything later than that. But, um, the traffic that goes
through that every single weekday, it's something like a hundred
(15:57):
and twenty six thousand cars. And I can only assume
that numb is going up, up, up every year because
you know, our population is growing here. Um. But the
thing is that as the as the proceeds started, you
know that the proceeds started to drop. Even though that
the the even though that the the the revenue was
going or it should have been going up, it was
(16:19):
coming down because of failures in the equipment. So remember
when I mentioned earlier that we have to pay for
upgrades for this this thing. Most most are upgraded every
few years. Right, this one, I believe has gone through
fourteen years without having an upgrade up until two thousand seven.
So when they started that the program to you know read,
(16:39):
I guess redo the the computer computer system and you
know that the way that they take the tolls make
it very advanced. That was catching up from fourteen years ago,
which is something they normally don't do. And that's why
it costs several million dollars. And that's why we're still
paying the toll even though it should have been gone,
well it should be gone in two thousand eleven, but
I think it's gonna hang on. That sounds reasonable. Alternate theory,
(17:02):
there is a vault filled with quarters somewhere in city Hall,
and there's someone swimming through it, just like remember Scooge
mcdock's gonna say, like Scrooge mcdoctor's right, that's what he's doing,
the backstroke in his cash. He's probably got to have
some great upper arm strength, man to get the coins.
But yeah, these So this is one thing that I
(17:23):
really want to hear from some listeners on anyone who
lives in especially the northeastern area of the US. Man.
I was not expecting it. When I drove through New
York on my way to Massachusetts. I started to feel
that I was from this lawless world of free roads,
(17:44):
you know, and I had just come into civilization. So
what I want to hear from listeners, Um are stories
about their take on the toll road. You know, is
the toll road worth it for your community? You know?
Is the toll road unnecessed? Serry? Is it? Is it
a pain? Is it good? Is it bad? About toll bridges?
(18:04):
What about told bridges? Even the Golden Gate has a
toll yeah. Um. In fact, it's like I think it's
five or six dollars at this point, and there's a
car pool rate that you can pay as well. That's
it's cheaper. But you have to apply for, you know,
some type of fast pass type thing, which is another
element to this whole thing. If you can pay your
toll electronically in a lot of cases, if you're if
(18:24):
your local and obviously that doesn't help you much if
you're traveling from state to state and you're not a
you know, like an over the road trucker or something
who knows what to expect in the way. Um, but
that's a much more efficient way to handle paying your toll.
I haven't done that yet. I don't know why. I mean,
it passed through the thing twice every day. Um. It
seems like it makes sense to me, but I just
haven't done it. Well, they call it an easy pass
(18:46):
here and easy pass fast track. Um, I think there's
sun passed in Florida? Is that right? Something they're they're
all basically, they're all names to make it sound like
your life would be easier and maybe more more sunshine.
It really is. It really is a lot easier. And
you know what, I got some some quick facts on
the amount of toll road in the country. I guess
(19:07):
because it's it's far more extensive than you'd think. Really, Um, okay,
here's that word I wish I have trouble with, not urban,
but rural, thank you. Uh. The amount of rural Yeah,
toll roads that cover the United States, about three thousand
and five miles that's three thousand five miles are toll
(19:27):
paying roads that you have to you have to pay
on to use. Um urban roads, which I can say
with no problem, about two thousand four two miles. And
these are according to the Federal Highway guys. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, fell Yeah, that's right. And so total we've
got about five and a half thousand miles of toll
(19:50):
roads in the United States. That's a significant amount of space. Now,
I know there's I mean, there's a lot of roads
in the United States. But these routes we're talking about,
these five and a half thousand miles, they go to
very critical places. Sure, I've got I think I've got
a little list. And that's why. That's why things like
the bridges make sense. You know that they make a
bridge to make something easier. There's even there's even a
(20:10):
ferry that I or life see a lot of ferries
that I know of that um that travel across bays
or across small bodies of water that make perfect sense.
It will save you three hours of driving time. Take
this ferry. It'll take you half an hour to get across.
But they charge you forty bucks, which is which is
more worth it. And there's one even that goes from
Michigan to Wisconsin across Lake Michigan. Saves you that trip
(20:31):
all the way down around the tip of Lake Michigan,
through Chicago, et cetera. That's worth up into Wisconsin and
you know, back and forth. And there's several places on
Lake Michigan where you can do this back and forth.
You can drive your car right on it. I don't
know what it costs. I don't remember the the the
price or something like that, but it saves you a
ton of time to just you know, shuttle right across.
Obviously that one makes sense and time time is winning.
(20:53):
Plus it's gas. I think really, when we talk about
these places, we do see them springing up. People expect
to see a turnpike or toll in you know, the
New York thru Way or Niagara, New England, Massachusetts. Um,
I guess Florida too, but all across and I'm sorry, Yeah,
(21:14):
I was a cross Indiana. Yeah, I was surprised Indiana
and Pennsylvania. I was surprised about Ohio. In Kansas, you're
surprised about Ohio. Really, Yeah, I'm Midwestern, right, I've traveled
at Sucker all the time. The the Ohio Turnpike is
kind of infamous for what I just because, no, no, no, no,
it's I mean, I've just I've heard it my whole life,
and something about the Ohio State troopers being exceptionally tough
(21:37):
on you know, giving speeding tickets things, and you're on
the turnpike and you're at their mercy whenever, whenever I
am driving in an unfamiliar place, man, I'm on a
peas in my queues. Very good, yeah, sometimes bad to
have those out of state plates. But maybe that's a
story for a different day, because I guess what we're
(21:57):
really getting to when we talked about toll roads here
is more of an observation about the way that states
and uh cities are changing the costs that they give
to drivers, because we already see, you know, if you're
a driver, you already have several levels of fees that
you have to pay just to own a car, right
(22:20):
and then in addition to that, we're seeing we're seeing
things like this more and more. We talked about the
superspeed or law and whether or not that was totally altruistic,
you know it, or if it's revenue. And then we've
also got things like the the increase in toll roads
here because the idea of toll roads, you know, fell
(22:41):
out of favor for a little while, but now it
seems to be coming back. And interestingly enough, in London
there's the congestion tax, you know, and you have to wonder,
especially when we see these optional toll lanes, you have
to wonder if we're starting to build sort of an
American congestion to what what about the the gas tax?
What about the guests to pay gas tax here, and
(23:03):
that's for the upkeep of roads. But that's where the
upkeep of federal roads, and this is a private road
or possibly a What we're seeing now is this is
kind of weird. There's a federal private joint ownership of
the road that's starting to happen, and that the past
had been totally separate. You know this, uh turnpikes and
interstate m turnpikes and toll roads had been private enterprises
(23:28):
up until that point, and that was the purpose. You know,
they pay for the road and the upkeep of the
road and even you know, just maintenance, you know, and
the people to operate the toll boos and everything. It
all pays it for itself. That's the goal anyways. But
now we're seeing that, you know that they're getting federal
backing as well as um, you know, these private investors
that also have an interest in the road for whatever reason. Now,
(23:48):
I'm gonna say, I guess the way that we usually
in this stuff with our opinions. Um So I'm just
gonna go ahead and say that although I really don't
take well to waiting at that one, that's just one
toll spot and four hundred north of Atlanta. I do
support toll roads. I support the idea of it to
(24:12):
a certain extent. I do wish I had been a
little bit less of a country mouse and a hay
seed when I went into New England and and end
up through New York, so that I was a little
more aware that I should bring a bag of change.
But I it's a quarter here, fifty cents there, right.
But if you think about it, this is theoretically a
very smart way to get the people who are using
(24:35):
this sort of public good to actually pay for the upkeep.
I mean, if there was just some optional tax that
you could opt into, these roads will be destroyed. Sure,
if there was a box near the donations please suggested
donation like at the like at the museum or something. Yeah, yeah,
you know, you can feel pretty good about yourself talking
(24:56):
five bucks into there or whatever, ten dollars um. I
don't know how many you point do it on the road.
I I think I would, man, No, I probably would
probably would, now me. You know what I want to
I in with a question. Yes, okay, I'm gon in
with a question. This is for you. Okay, what do
you think what bothers you the most about toll roads.
What's what bothers you the most about them? And I've
(25:19):
got an answer that is not the uh, not the
one that you know. Um, what bothers me the most
about toll roads where you have to pay to exit
any exit? Okay, all right, okay, sure like New Jersey
or something. Sure. What bothers me the most about toll
(25:39):
roads is even when I'm familiar with them, if you're
there during a busy period. And this is not the
most creative answers, gut, but there during a busy period,
you know how the roads widen and subdivide into these
multiple lanes, and then when you're leaving the toll and
they all quickly converge again. That that part when you leave,
(26:00):
that is my least favorite part man, especially in a
traffic jam. Are you kidding? I've had near death experiences
fair enough in my head. So mine is the high
cost of food and gas on toll roads, because you're
a captive audience. And I've noticed this traveling, you know,
like I said, across the Midwest and rounding Indiana, Ohio,
(26:22):
Pennsylvania area, Um, even New Jersey. Anything you stopped by,
it seems is just marked up and unbelievable food gas
of course, you know, they don't. They know you don't
want to exit to to find gas and then they
have to pay to get back on, etcetera. You know,
it's just a it's a difficult thing. So they've got you.
It's a captive audience. You They want you to stop
there on their you know, at their own plazas of course,
(26:44):
where things are marked up. And I just noticed that.
You know, I try and I try to hold off
eating and I try to get fueled before I get
onto a turnpike or told. Um. But that's always something
that's really bothered me, is that, you know, it's uh,
it's not really gouging. I don't think it's it's kind
of it's because it's not the point where it's just
absurd and you wouldn't pay that. It's a seller's mark.
It's just up a little bit, and and you can
(27:05):
say like, well, yeah, it's a convenience factor. I'm gonna
just pull it there and get that. Yeah, you may
pay double for soda or something like that. But um,
I don't know. I just it's always bothered me. As
you say before, not to sound like boy scouts, but
be prepared, you know, straight bring up why no, I'm
not gonna say it, bring your own extra gas on
the trip. But no, no, that's a bad idea. Okay,
(27:27):
so we're just gonna do a rapid fire catch up
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(27:50):
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(28:12):
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Go behind the wheel, under the hood and beyond with
car Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hey, everybody,
welcome to car Stuff. I'm Scott Benjamin, the auto editor
here at how stuff works dot com, and my name
is Ben Bowland. I am a video writer here at
(00:21):
the same website. Never gets old, Never gets old, Never
gets old. Scott, you live up north of the city,
and so you get to pass one of our cities.
Will we call it famous? Um? Infamous? Infamous? One of
our city's infamous landmarks a road called Interstate four hundred,
(00:44):
which is in transition technically because originally this road was
built to be a toll road. And the story that
still is still is the story that we all heard
in Atlanta was that this would be a toll road
only for such a time as as was sufficient for
(01:04):
it to break even, um, you know, defined as offsetting
the cost it took to construct it, which seemed like
a great idea. Yeah, such a great idea. In fact,
that they have yet to make this a non toll road. Yeah.
I know a little bit about this too. I think
we've got a couple of articles here about, um, you know,
why that happened. And it's still a toll road, and uh,
(01:27):
it makes sense, but it's one of those things like
they're trying to catch up with the cost and having
to do that, they had to spend more money, and
to spend more money, they needed to keep the tolls
up longer. So it's like it just keeps feeding itself,
and it looks like we're gonna be stuck with our
toll road for at least another couple of years. It's
either a very poor calculation on someone's part or absolutely
(01:50):
brilliant it is. I don't know how to look at it.
Is it, uh, strategic failure or strategic triumph? I don't know.
It's you're you're right. But that's one example, and there's many,
many examples across the US of of toll roads. Of course,
people probably know what we're talking about right now. Yeah,
roads that you pay to drive on, alternately known as
a turnpike. Turnpike, that's right. Um, what else turnpike, toll road,
(02:14):
toll route, route, toll route, ye court, there's a toll
corridor or something people talk about. Yeah. Well, now, astute
listeners will remember Scott that earlier, in a different episode,
you and I briefly talked about the origin of the
word turnpike exactly. I had that one in front of me.
(02:34):
Let's let's run it down that it comes from the
etymology breakdown of this thing, and it comes from the
early fifteenth century, which really it meant a spiked road
barrier for just defense, and it comes from the words
turn and pike. It was a shaft um uh. It
met a piece of timber really that was laying across
the road. It was on a um on an axis
(02:57):
and you had to pay a toll in order to
use the road, and they would turn the pike out
of the way and allow you to pass through under
the road. Um that let's say, trying to think of
when that was. That was probably just look at my notes,
fifteen forties somewhere around there. And um, they borrowed horses
from foot roads and that's why they were able to,
you know, they had to put up a gate and
(03:17):
say they can't travel on this road. This is for
foot traffic only. Um. Well, it led to an idea
that it meant a barrier to stop passage until until
the tolls paid. So that meant um and they called
it a road with a toll gate, which was you know,
part of the evolution. Yeah, that's right. Uh. Then that
came around um, the sixteen seventies, I believe, and then
(03:39):
in seventeen uh they shortened the word to UM, I'm sorry,
hang on. In seventeen forty five they shortened it, uh
to turnpike road. So I was a little convoluted here
and what's going on? But basically got to the point
where it's a turnpike, and the turnpike now that we
have had it originally meant the toll booth. Now it
(04:00):
means the road itself, the road entire exactly, and that
didn't come until like eighteen fifties, which is interesting because
we're going to hopefully there are other people that were
as surprised as I was to learn how old toll
road technology is, or at least the idea. And one
thing that also will surprise a lot of people, I hope, right.
(04:23):
That's the point in the show, is that the United
States has actually a very long and storied history with
toll roads. Because let's see, um, people will usually remember
the date of our country's independence in seventeen seventies six
and Scott, I want to ask you to guess when
(04:45):
the first toll road was built. But you already know.
I already know. So let's just break it down. The
Philadelphia and Lancaster Lancaster Turnpike. Uh, that was built in
seventeen ninety two. Holy cow, that's so. That's toll roads
are way older than cars, older than the interstate system,
(05:11):
older than us by far. Well okay, maybe they're a
lot older than you, not so much older than me.
So this thing, uh, this thing, if you think about it,
was almost a model of a model of good estimates
and well done building because it only took about what
(05:32):
a couple of years to complete, and people just thought
this was the bee's knees of highways. Right. I love
when you says knees, thanks man. That's that's view as
always wanted to. And and the crazy thing about it
is that this was actually very successful. Um, which is yeah,
you would think. Okay, one one I mean to interrupt,
(05:54):
but one quick thing is that you know, up to
this point, roads have been free. Yeah, and suddenly they've
got to adjust the idea that hey, I'm gonna have
to pay to use this the stretch road that you
know I was able to walk over. Well, actually, it's
probably a new road at that point somewhere somewhere convenient.
It's a convenient route rather than taking the long way around.
This is a straight, direct path right through. Therefore, you're
(06:15):
gonna pay a little bit extra to have that privilege
of that, that ability to go straight to where you're
gonna go. It's a convenience. Yeah, and you've got your
money's worth because it went over sixty miles, so sixty
two miles, and eventually the state picked it up and
then it became part of what we call the Lincoln
Highway in US thirty today. No kidding, Yeah, I've got
(06:39):
I've got some jokes later, but that that part was serious. Uh.
And so let's fast forward a little bit. We also
have talked about the folks, the good folks who built
or largely built the Dwight D. Eisenhower Interstate syste Oh, yeah,
that was a good one. Yeah, we're talking about Fairbank
and McDonald's right, Herbert Fairbank, Thomas McDonald. Interesting story, Scott,
(07:02):
These guys thought toll roads were lame. Well they didn't
say the word lame, but why did they think that?
Because they were they not federally funded free roads or
what I mean? Well, it's yeah, it's kind of like
some people's attitude with uh, the internet or anything where
there is one free service offered and then a paid alternative.
(07:23):
You know, The question, which is logical is why would
anyone pay to take this one route when there are
parallel free roots, you know. But of course you've already
got that, You've already got the nail on the head
with convenience. I just want to show you how poorly
they estimated this. Um, these guys, said McDonald and Fairbank,
(07:48):
believe that the Philadelphia to Pittsburgh cord Or toll cord
Or would carry a little bit more than seven hundred
cars a day maybe today. And uh that was the
official estimate in the US Bureau of Public Roads. And
oh buddy, oh buddy, they were wrong. They were they
(08:11):
were wrong. Oh way wrong. But I don't yeah, I
don't have I don't have the exact estimate now, but
needless to say, it was it was well over. Traffic
was pretty intense. Okay, I got it. You know that
this is something you mentioned something here that why would
people pay for a road when there's alternate roads that
you don't have to pay for it? Right? Yes, I've
(08:32):
got some don't forgive me if I'm breaking out of
the history of this thing here, we're coming up into
modern day. Yeah, we got with what I'm mentioned here. UM,
And I had never heard of this really, and it's
just my own, I guess, my own ignorance on this
subject because I, um, I just recently found out that
there are optional toll lanes in the United States, lots
(08:53):
of them. That is news to me. See, I didn't
know this, and that's because we don't live in a
state that has these optional toll lanes already. But we
might go on. Yeah, it's it's it's maybe happening here
in Georgia. Um. They're talking about adding optional toll lanes
along and I five seventy five in cobbent Cherokee Counties.
(09:13):
And that's right where I seventy five comes straight through,
you know, from all the way up in Michigan all
the way down to Florida. A lot of people make
that trip. But there may be some optional toll lanes
coming soon to that area. And uh, the estimated I
guess dollar This is just giving idea of how expensive
these projects are. The there was an elaborate project plans.
(09:34):
It's back down from this. But the first UM project
that was planned was priced between one point eight billion
and four billion dollars and I had never heard of
anything like this. But the DT rarely spends that much
money on any project at all, a single road project,
but they have backed it down to something like nine
million to one point one billion is the estimate for
(09:56):
the toll road. Yeah, that's right. It's a burround a
billion dollars. And how is it, Well, three or fifty
million of that is is taxpayer money. The rest would
be you know, private and collected through tolls. And you
know this this the road would fund itself. That's where
you get the you know, I don't know what the
cost would be. It doesn't mention in this article here. UM,
(10:16):
I can look at UM there's an example here from Indiana. Yeah,
Indiana is that there. Um, they're considering an optional toll
lane also on I sixty nine, which goes right into Indianapolis.
And uh they say that now that what's weird about
this one is not only is it an optional lane
(10:37):
optional toll lane, it would be um, a variable dollar
amount that you pay as you go through as well,
So depending on traffic, depending on the time, of day
things like that. It could vary from one to three
dollars like a real time congestion time exactly. And that
doesn't that that's not unusual either, which I found out.
I had no idea that this was happening. But there's
these variable rates that are going on everywhere else. I mean,
(10:59):
it says express tolanes are on a new idea. They're
used in San Diego, Orange County, California, Salt Lake City, Houston, Minneapolis, Denver, Seattle, Miami.
They're under construction right now in Dallas, Washington, d C.
And the San Francisco Bay area. And we may be
able to add while we're gonna say Indianta, Atlanta and
Indiana to this as well. And I think, you know,
there's probably more out there that I just don't have
(11:21):
in this article here, but um more that haven't gone
public yet. The idea behind this is and and why
would you pay it? Right? Because it's it's the exact
same stretch of road. It gives you the benefit that
let's say an HLV lane is to people right now,
That's what I was thinking. I was just thinking you
could do it individually, you could drive it alone, and
the other thing is that let's say that it's a
day I mean the people in this example here, they
(11:42):
said that, yeah, they could actually see it working because
let's say there's a day when they're coming home from
work and they don't know if it's going to take
them twenty minutes or an hour to get home, and
they've got to pick up the kids at the daycare center,
and there's that wide open express lane that if I
pay three dollars, I'm gonna make it there and save
myself the late fee. If the the daycare facility or um,
(12:03):
you know it's you've got a doctor's appointment, you have
to get home for that or or near home for that. Um.
A lot of people say that it may be called
the Lexus lanes, the Lexus land that you know, it
says it's going to create have and have not commuter separation, right,
And that's not the idea. They said that what they
find more often than not in these um these optional lanes,
(12:24):
is that you do get the people that are just
simply running late, or you know, parents that have to
be somewhere at a ballgame or something like that, or
the daycare cut off exactly. It's it's uh it's not
what they think. It's not just the wealthy who say,
you know, I'm going to drive my own lane. And
a lot of that depends on the dollar amount of
the toll. True, true, Yeah, because some of them, I mean,
the tolls can go way up in some reason. I
(12:44):
was looking at some here and I forget me, it's
in my notes somewhere, But some of these tolls are
up in the ten dollar range, um nine dollars for
you know, just for stretches of road, not not the
whole thing. I'm not talking from edge of state to
edge of state. I'm talking a short distance between exits,
like every ten miles exactly. Yeah, where if you don't,
if you were to follow the toll roade uh route
(13:06):
entirely to work, you may end up paying twenty five
bucks to get to work. Um ore droll our Georgia
toll here that we were just kind of talking about.
Um yes, okay, but let me let me say that toll.
I'm gonna go on the record with this, Scott. It
is so frustrating to have to dig through your car
(13:29):
for some change. Are we gonna have to fight here again?
Because are you sure? Yeah? Okay, you are you deep.
Let me ask you this bend. You get up to
the front of the lane and then dig around your
car and try to find the money. No, if I
if I haven't found it by the time I hit
the exit before the toll road, I take the exit.
Oh good, I'm glad to hear that, because I thought
I thought we might come to fisticuffs. No, I feel
(13:50):
like that's it happens. I understand what happens to some people. Um,
but I'm definitely not going to I'm not a line
hold upper, you know. Let's hold that's good. I didn't.
I didn't think you were. But you know, you have
to ask because you just never know, because I encountered
that every single day on my way, really not not
indirectly in front of me all the time. It happens.
Sometimes the person will realize they got in the you know,
(14:12):
the change only lane, and they have to get out
to the cashier, but they have to open the door
and go across go to another lane, which is terribly dangerous.
I woish they wouldn't do that. And um, the other
one I've seen recently a lot of people will get
out and ask the person behind them if they can
just borrow a dollar, which okay, yeah, yeah, that's not borrowing.
That's again you're not going to be faced friends, no,
(14:33):
and but I assume they're just paying for years also
if you give him a dollar, you know, but maybe whatever. Anyways,
I yeah, it's it's frustrated to me that that happens.
But we can't deny that toll systems overall in this
country are really effective. I think just between eighteen fifty
and nineteen o two, over a hundred toll roads were built. Really. Yeah,
(14:56):
it's it's just a financially, it's a very very good
decision for policymakers, at least in the short term, because
it allows you to get a quality of road that
might otherwise put your municipality or region in debt. Um
and it does still put them in debt, but much
(15:17):
even this uh this small, I mean, this is just
one toll gate on this road, four hundred fifty cents.
It's it's a standard flat rate for everybody. And you
can drive around there. They're talking about you can drive
around it. Oh you mean you mean exit and go
up the back way. I understand, Okay, God, I thought
you went through it without you know, I'm really cheap, man,
(15:37):
I have I have done that once. Intellectually I realize
I'm spending more on gas. But do you understand this
is when gas was cheaper. I understand, I understand, Yeah,
but go on that in two thousand seven. I have
figures here from two thousand and seven. I don't have
anything later than that. But, um, the traffic that goes
through that every single weekday, it's something like a hundred
(15:57):
and twenty six thousand cars. And I can only assume
that numb is going up, up, up every year because
you know, our population is growing here. Um. But the
thing is that as the as the proceeds started, you
know that the proceeds started to drop. Even though that
the the even though that the the the revenue was
going or it should have been going up, it was
(16:19):
coming down because of failures in the equipment. So remember
when I mentioned earlier that we have to pay for
upgrades for this this thing. Most most are upgraded every
few years. Right, this one, I believe has gone through
fourteen years without having an upgrade up until two thousand seven.
So when they started that the program to you know read,
(16:39):
I guess redo the the computer computer system and you
know that the way that they take the tolls make
it very advanced. That was catching up from fourteen years ago,
which is something they normally don't do. And that's why
it costs several million dollars. And that's why we're still
paying the toll even though it should have been gone,
well it should be gone in two thousand eleven, but
I think it's gonna hang on. That sounds reasonable. Alternate theory,
(17:02):
there is a vault filled with quarters somewhere in city Hall,
and there's someone swimming through it, just like remember Scooge
mcdock's gonna say, like Scrooge mcdoctor's right, that's what he's doing,
the backstroke in his cash. He's probably got to have
some great upper arm strength, man to get the coins.
But yeah, these So this is one thing that I
(17:23):
really want to hear from some listeners on anyone who
lives in especially the northeastern area of the US. Man.
I was not expecting it. When I drove through New
York on my way to Massachusetts. I started to feel
that I was from this lawless world of free roads,
(17:44):
you know, and I had just come into civilization. So
what I want to hear from listeners, Um are stories
about their take on the toll road. You know, is
the toll road worth it for your community? You know?
Is the toll road unnecessed? Serry? Is it? Is it
a pain? Is it good? Is it bad? About toll bridges?
(18:04):
What about told bridges? Even the Golden Gate has a
toll yeah. Um. In fact, it's like I think it's
five or six dollars at this point, and there's a
car pool rate that you can pay as well. That's
it's cheaper. But you have to apply for, you know,
some type of fast pass type thing, which is another
element to this whole thing. If you can pay your
toll electronically in a lot of cases, if you're if
(18:24):
your local and obviously that doesn't help you much if
you're traveling from state to state and you're not a
you know, like an over the road trucker or something
who knows what to expect in the way. Um, but
that's a much more efficient way to handle paying your toll.
I haven't done that yet. I don't know why. I mean,
it passed through the thing twice every day. Um. It
seems like it makes sense to me, but I just
haven't done it. Well, they call it an easy pass
(18:46):
here and easy pass fast track. Um, I think there's
sun passed in Florida? Is that right? Something they're they're
all basically, they're all names to make it sound like
your life would be easier and maybe more more sunshine.
It really is. It really is a lot easier. And
you know what, I got some some quick facts on
the amount of toll road in the country. I guess
(19:07):
because it's it's far more extensive than you'd think. Really, Um, okay,
here's that word I wish I have trouble with, not urban,
but rural, thank you. Uh. The amount of rural Yeah,
toll roads that cover the United States, about three thousand
and five miles that's three thousand five miles are toll
(19:27):
paying roads that you have to you have to pay
on to use. Um urban roads, which I can say
with no problem, about two thousand four two miles. And
these are according to the Federal Highway guys. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, fell Yeah, that's right. And so total we've
got about five and a half thousand miles of toll
(19:50):
roads in the United States. That's a significant amount of space. Now,
I know there's I mean, there's a lot of roads
in the United States. But these routes we're talking about,
these five and a half thousand miles, they go to
very critical places. Sure, I've got I think I've got
a little list. And that's why. That's why things like
the bridges make sense. You know that they make a
bridge to make something easier. There's even there's even a
(20:10):
ferry that I or life see a lot of ferries
that I know of that um that travel across bays
or across small bodies of water that make perfect sense.
It will save you three hours of driving time. Take
this ferry. It'll take you half an hour to get across.
But they charge you forty bucks, which is which is
more worth it. And there's one even that goes from
Michigan to Wisconsin across Lake Michigan. Saves you that trip
(20:31):
all the way down around the tip of Lake Michigan,
through Chicago, et cetera. That's worth up into Wisconsin and
you know, back and forth. And there's several places on
Lake Michigan where you can do this back and forth.
You can drive your car right on it. I don't
know what it costs. I don't remember the the the
price or something like that, but it saves you a
ton of time to just you know, shuttle right across.
Obviously that one makes sense and time time is winning.
(20:53):
Plus it's gas. I think really, when we talk about
these places, we do see them springing up. People expect
to see a turnpike or toll in you know, the
New York thru Way or Niagara, New England, Massachusetts. Um,
I guess Florida too, but all across and I'm sorry, Yeah,
(21:14):
I was a cross Indiana. Yeah, I was surprised Indiana
and Pennsylvania. I was surprised about Ohio. In Kansas, you're
surprised about Ohio. Really, Yeah, I'm Midwestern, right, I've traveled
at Sucker all the time. The the Ohio Turnpike is
kind of infamous for what I just because, no, no, no, no,
it's I mean, I've just I've heard it my whole life,
and something about the Ohio State troopers being exceptionally tough
(21:37):
on you know, giving speeding tickets things, and you're on
the turnpike and you're at their mercy whenever, whenever I
am driving in an unfamiliar place, man, I'm on a
peas in my queues. Very good, yeah, sometimes bad to
have those out of state plates. But maybe that's a
story for a different day, because I guess what we're
(21:57):
really getting to when we talked about toll roads here
is more of an observation about the way that states
and uh cities are changing the costs that they give
to drivers, because we already see, you know, if you're
a driver, you already have several levels of fees that
you have to pay just to own a car, right
(22:20):
and then in addition to that, we're seeing we're seeing
things like this more and more. We talked about the
superspeed or law and whether or not that was totally altruistic,
you know it, or if it's revenue. And then we've
also got things like the the increase in toll roads
here because the idea of toll roads, you know, fell
(22:41):
out of favor for a little while, but now it
seems to be coming back. And interestingly enough, in London
there's the congestion tax, you know, and you have to wonder,
especially when we see these optional toll lanes, you have
to wonder if we're starting to build sort of an
American congestion to what what about the the gas tax?
What about the guests to pay gas tax here, and
(23:03):
that's for the upkeep of roads. But that's where the
upkeep of federal roads, and this is a private road
or possibly a What we're seeing now is this is
kind of weird. There's a federal private joint ownership of
the road that's starting to happen, and that the past
had been totally separate. You know this, uh turnpikes and
interstate m turnpikes and toll roads had been private enterprises
(23:28):
up until that point, and that was the purpose. You know,
they pay for the road and the upkeep of the
road and even you know, just maintenance, you know, and
the people to operate the toll boos and everything. It
all pays it for itself. That's the goal anyways. But
now we're seeing that, you know that they're getting federal
backing as well as um, you know, these private investors
that also have an interest in the road for whatever reason. Now,
(23:48):
I'm gonna say, I guess the way that we usually
in this stuff with our opinions. Um So I'm just
gonna go ahead and say that although I really don't
take well to waiting at that one, that's just one
toll spot and four hundred north of Atlanta. I do
support toll roads. I support the idea of it to
(24:12):
a certain extent. I do wish I had been a
little bit less of a country mouse and a hay
seed when I went into New England and and end
up through New York, so that I was a little
more aware that I should bring a bag of change.
But I it's a quarter here, fifty cents there, right.
But if you think about it, this is theoretically a
very smart way to get the people who are using
(24:35):
this sort of public good to actually pay for the upkeep.
I mean, if there was just some optional tax that
you could opt into, these roads will be destroyed. Sure,
if there was a box near the donations please suggested
donation like at the like at the museum or something. Yeah, yeah,
you know, you can feel pretty good about yourself talking
(24:56):
five bucks into there or whatever, ten dollars um. I
don't know how many you point do it on the road.
I I think I would, man, No, I probably would
probably would, now me. You know what I want to
I in with a question. Yes, okay, I'm gon in
with a question. This is for you. Okay, what do
you think what bothers you the most about toll roads.
What's what bothers you the most about them? And I've
(25:19):
got an answer that is not the uh, not the
one that you know. Um, what bothers me the most
about toll roads where you have to pay to exit
any exit? Okay, all right, okay, sure like New Jersey
or something. Sure. What bothers me the most about toll
(25:39):
roads is even when I'm familiar with them, if you're
there during a busy period. And this is not the
most creative answers, gut, but there during a busy period,
you know how the roads widen and subdivide into these
multiple lanes, and then when you're leaving the toll and
they all quickly converge again. That that part when you leave,
(26:00):
that is my least favorite part man, especially in a
traffic jam. Are you kidding? I've had near death experiences
fair enough in my head. So mine is the high
cost of food and gas on toll roads, because you're
a captive audience. And I've noticed this traveling, you know,
like I said, across the Midwest and rounding Indiana, Ohio,
(26:22):
Pennsylvania area, Um, even New Jersey. Anything you stopped by,
it seems is just marked up and unbelievable food gas
of course, you know, they don't. They know you don't
want to exit to to find gas and then they
have to pay to get back on, etcetera. You know,
it's just a it's a difficult thing. So they've got you.
It's a captive audience. You They want you to stop
there on their you know, at their own plazas of course,
(26:44):
where things are marked up. And I just noticed that.
You know, I try and I try to hold off
eating and I try to get fueled before I get
onto a turnpike or told. Um. But that's always something
that's really bothered me, is that, you know, it's uh,
it's not really gouging. I don't think it's it's kind
of it's because it's not the point where it's just
absurd and you wouldn't pay that. It's a seller's mark.
It's just up a little bit, and and you can
(27:05):
say like, well, yeah, it's a convenience factor. I'm gonna
just pull it there and get that. Yeah, you may
pay double for soda or something like that. But um,
I don't know. I just it's always bothered me. As
you say before, not to sound like boy scouts, but
be prepared, you know, straight bring up why no, I'm
not gonna say it, bring your own extra gas on
the trip. But no, no, that's a bad idea. Okay,
(27:27):
so we're just gonna do a rapid fire catch up
there with face stuff, I mean Facebook, which is car stuff.
Car stuff on Facebook, also on Twitter. You can read
our excellent blog on the website, and you can also
generally find all sorts of fascinating information about anything that flies, floats,
(27:50):
drives on on our website as well. We get some
great articles and if there's something there that just hasn't
answered your questions, or if you do have a really
good toll road story for us, please send us an
email at car stuff at how stuff works dot com.
For more on this and thousands of other topics, this
(28:12):
is at how stuff works dot com. Let us know
what you think, send an email to podcast at how
stuff works dot com.
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