November 17, 2015 • 49 mins
Like the definition of "luxury car," the definition of "sports car" can change depending on who you ask. So what exactly makes one car a sports car, and another not? Listen in to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Go behind the Wheel, under the Hood and beyond with
car Stuff from house stuff Works dot Com. Fine, welcome
to Car Stuff. I'm Scott and I'm Ben and we
are joined as always with our super producer Noel the
Racetrack Brown Racetrack. Spitfire, Spitfire. That's a good one. I
(00:25):
like that one. How about Tom Noel Track Dave Brown.
Oh yeah, that's even better. I don't know, we'll have
to well, maybe we'll work on it throughout the episode. Yeah, yeah,
maybe we will. The latest trend. Anyways, right while we're
asking ourselves what a suitable nickname for nol is, it's
kind of appropriate in this podcast because ladies and gentlemen today,
(00:45):
we are starting the show with a question that we
are going to answer to the best of our ability. However,
you may have your own answer, you may have exceptions,
you may have issues. I'm already laughing because I have
the impression that we're not really going to answer this question.
I don't I don't know if we can answer this
question because of the the way that the lines have
(01:07):
been blurred between the types of vehicles that we're gonna
talk about today. And I think I think we've talked
about this in the very recent past with what really
makes a luxury car luxury car? Right, and we've also
talked about what makes a muscle car muscle car? Sure, Yeah,
we've had a few of these along the way where um,
you know, a strict definition given by one, uh you know,
(01:28):
enthusiast group or um, you know, maybe even a dictionary. Um,
is now being kind of that that line is kind
of being muddied. It's being jostled around a bit, so
that your expectations of of of what a vehicle should
be if it's in this class or category is different
than what you may get now versus what you've got
decades ago. Oh, here's one know, the Belgian brown that's
(01:53):
going you know what, that's a little foreshadow, that is
foreshadow and uh, okay, there's a whole conversation we had
ahead of this. But but we will, we'll we'll work
Belgium into this into this topic here with sports cars too. Yeah,
we promise. Oh yes, and no, could we please have
some big important question music perfect, ladies and gentlemen, to
(02:14):
Daty's question, one of the great questions in automotive history,
what makes a sports car? So what in people's mind
do they picture I would guess that most of our
listeners when we say, you know, what is a sports car?
They think of you think of maybe an F what well,
(02:35):
or they think of like a maybe maybe not that.
Maybe they think of like a Corvette, or maybe they
think of, oh here's a trick when a Mustang, or
maybe they think of, you know, this is some other
model that that is like cemented in their mind as
being a sports car. But along the way, somewhere throughout history,
people have have again kind of taken this idea and said, now,
(02:56):
you know what, here's what a sports car really should be.
And then it changes over time because manufacturers come up
with cars that that kind of blurred the lines. As
I said, right, yeah, that that go from one category
of car to another. There there's some great comparisons we
can talk about two. But first if we could open
from a definition, Scott, I'd like to start there. Yeah,
(03:17):
let's do that, all right. Miriam Webster defines a sports
car as a low, small, usually two passenger automobile designed
for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high speed driving. Now
we can add a bunch of stuff to that. You know,
people might say usually it's a two seater. Sure, yeah,
they can say that, and they can also say, well,
(03:37):
it has to be rear wild drive, right. Um. And
and here's the this is the problem with all the
stuff that I'm going to mention because I've got this
list here, Ben, And the list isn't a list of cars.
It's more a list of my own questions. And I
want you to think about these maybe throughout the podcast.
And we could even stop and dwell on a couple
of these if you want to. But um, you know,
(03:57):
let's get this out of the way. Too many factors
make cars that are sporty. They make cars that have
sporting characteristics to them, you know, like tossability, you know
that you can quickly throw into a corner, or go
kart handling like many likes to say. Or it has
a great acceleration exactly right. Yeah, but how do you
measure that? Is it? Well, acceleration is one thing, so
zero sixty that's fine, But do you measure it? Do
(04:18):
you measure top speed as well? Do you measure engine RPMs?
All these things come into place. So I've got a
million questions here, and not really a million, but you know,
a bunch and uh, and I'm sure that our listener
is gonna be about able to add several to this
whole thing. So the first one is does it have
to have two seats? Could? Could one seat be a
sports car as well? Because there they're not many of
them out there, but there's some great one seat cars
(04:42):
that are definitely considered sports cars. So one seat is possible.
Now what if you say three is it? Is it
possible to have three seats and be a sports car? Yes,
But then that also goes to another question. What is
the difference between should we should we separate supercars from calls? Okay?
So what I mean? Okay, I know exactly what we're
(05:02):
going with this, because three seats implies the McLaren F
one from the early nineteen nineties or I guess through
the nineteen nineties, and and that is clearly a sports car.
That's the one I'm thinking about. What So, what do
you think of when you think of a sports car? Yeah? Sure,
Well there's three seats. You know, there's a central driving
position which is so and two passengers that flank the driver.
Clearly a sports car, no no other intent. Really, it's
(05:23):
not a luxury car. It's not all that other stuff
we talked about, And well, maybe it is a luxury
to be able to afford one, but that's definitely a
sports car, and people would argue that that it definitely is.
But it has three seats, so it doesn't meet the
clip meet the classic definition of a sports car. And
we're gonna find things like that along the way all
throughout it. So again, does it have to be rear
wheel drive? Um? I don't know. There's what about all
(05:46):
wheel drive? Does that count as a sports car because
a lot of super drivers will argue that they've got
sports cars, and so we'll sure Audie drivers that have
the Quatro system and other manufacturers that make great all
wheel drive systems. Can a sedan be a sports car
or can only aspire to be sporty? Well, okay, but
how about this? What about the ones that are the
four door coops supposedly which you can't really you know,
(06:09):
ford or coup is a funny thing to say, I
know that, But a lot of cars they are considered
four door coups and have a sporty look because they've
completely changed the roofline of those things so that they're
not really high in the back. Like they used to be.
They have very little room in the back, you know,
for headroom. But the design, the exterior design of the
car is decidedly sporty. Yeah, it's very much the sports
(06:29):
car profile. But then we go into the the area
of what one of my pet Peeve Scott and you
know this, listeners, you probably know this too. I don't.
I don't like token back seats. I think they're disingenuous.
So you're talking about like the even there are some
cars I think that even have like fold down seats
that you know, if you needed you can put it
(06:51):
back up because it's connected to the trunk area or um,
you know, maybe the ones that have seats that well
it's two plus two seating. Really, yes, that's probably the
best and the best one that I can think of.
And I had this on my list somewhere here that
I got come up with. But the lotus of Vora
and the lotus of Wora back seat that's that comically
small back seats. It's described as two plus two seating,
(07:11):
which we know is two adults in the front, two
kids in the back. And when I say two kids
in the back, preferably kids in car seats so that
their legs don't have to hang down between the back
seat and the driver's seat or the passengers because it's
way way too small. So that that's that's probably the
best example of a token back seat I can think
of in the modern era. I mean, right now, I
(07:32):
know Porsche has a couple of cars that have some
token back seats as well. So what are some of
these other questions? All right? So, um, do cylinder count matter?
I mean, what if what if you have a four
cylinder or six cylinder and eight cylinder or more, does
it have to have a certain amount of cylinders? That
one I'm not entirely sure about. Because some of the
earliest sports cars that we brought over to the United
States that that you know, the returning this whole thing
(07:55):
that we've talked about in the past, with returning UM
veterans from the war from from World War Two. We're
in Europe and they saw the mgs, the Triumphs, the Jaguars,
and they love those cars, the sports cars, two seats,
four cylinders often I mean Jaguar is a little different,
but they would bring over, um, you know, these four
cylinder cars that were manual transmissions, had very thin tires.
(08:15):
But but they're fun to drive. They had a convertible top.
It's just an exciting little car, great handling compared to
what was being made here in the United States at
the time. So that's what they appreciated those vehicles, decided
to bring them back with them, and and that really
led to a trend here in the United States. Well,
don't let me roll over you with this one. But
as soon as we're mentioning the idea of an absolute
(08:38):
number of cylinders, I feel that we are virgin very
close to making an error in our definition because of
the evolution of technology over time. You know, it's it's
much Uh, it's much much easier now given the vast
improvements just an engineering alone, not even counting material science.
(09:00):
It's it's much easier now for a four cylinder engine
built now to just cream a four cylinder engine from
that time. Of course. Yeah, and think about the the
new what's the afford for GT the brand new supercar
that they're gonna come out within I think it is
fingers yeah, V six, but it's gonna have, of course,
(09:22):
turbo V six. It's the ego boost V six, I believe,
And uh, and it's gonna have an enormous amount of
horse power. I want to say. It's like, um, I
don't even know if I should make a guess here
is it? Is it? I think the street car is
gonna have six horse power. The track car, of course,
is gonna have much more, you know, like closer to
a thousand horse power something like that. But that's coming
out of a V six engine. So clearly we're making
(09:42):
huge advancements in the way that you know engines. And
I mean, of course this all goes with UM machining.
You know, we're having we have precise machines that allow
for extremely high compression. Everything is well put to get
extremely well put together and strong, and uh we we've
talked about this many many times. So I don't know
if we need to go much further down path, but
let's keep going with that with some of these questions
(10:02):
that I have. Doesn't have to be small. I mean,
I don't think it has to be small, uh, I mean,
that's great to be having a tiny car. You know
that that's very nimble, very agile. You know that you
can really kind of work around the turns in a
in a back country road somewhere but um, some of
these bigger, like I guess supercar type vehicles, you know,
that are considered sports cars. Some of them, Um, they're
(10:24):
they're they're just as agile, just as nimble, but you know,
they're much bigger platform that they start with. And yeah
it's different to drive, sure, But does it have to
be a certain size to be considered a sports car? Right? Again,
we're running into absolutes. Is there is there a certain
length past which something cannot be considered a sports car,
certain weight past which something cannot be considered a sports car?
(10:47):
How about this been going back to the power trains,
how about a hybrid? A hybrid sports car? Now, Man,
I don't try to argue this one away, Ben, because
we've talked about a few of these cars on our
own podcast. What about the McLaren P one or the
I mean even I'm going to even throw the Fisker
Karma in here, only you know, because I saw one
this morning and what a fantastic looking car. Yeah, it's
(11:08):
pretty still pretty rare to see even here in this area.
Was it the same one from the shows? I'm going
to have to guess that it was one of the
ones in the shows that so check out our videos
just so rare. Yeah, we have a video on it.
They're pretty rare. And I did see I saw it
on the road just before I had to exit the
highway this morning. Didn't get to see the license plate
or anything, no which one it was. But I am
going to try to argue though. Okay, just really really quickly, Okay,
(11:31):
for people who have checked out our various podcasts that
touch on hybrid racing or even electric racing, we address something.
I guess it's a little more intangible and abstract concept,
which is that when you think of not necessarily a
sports car, but when you think of racing, I'm thinking
(11:53):
specifically a hybrid racing for if you're nostalgic for it,
it's a different category. It's not quite the same. There's
just something there about the engine, the sound of the
internal combustion kicking in wild roar, the you know the
camp that I met on this. I mean, I like
the old you know F one roar, of course, but
(12:15):
not the currency. That's the thing. The current F one
engines aren't all that great sounding. They're gonna get back
to it, I think, but um, you know you're talking
about like formula eracing versus Formula one racing, and then
in other categories, like let's say it's um, you know,
different different big events, you know, even endurance events. They're
gonna have categories that have hybrid racers. And so far,
(12:36):
I haven't seen an entire race field made out of
hybrid vehicles. Know, I haven't come across that. It's probably
out there. There's probably a hybrid racing league somewhere, but
I don't know exactly what that would entail. So, um,
I know exactly what we're talking about, though, like the
the the that that quality that you just can't put
your finger on, Like, why is this not quite as
entertaining to watch as as would be a standard Formula
(12:58):
one race? It's up there with the feel of a
luxury car, right, Yeah, it's a similar thing. It's it's
tough to put a finger on exactly what you know
what makes that different for you? So okay, I guess
you know what, man, Because I'm also thinking of Tesla
and this too, I guess you could you could you
could say that there that there's a there's an argument
(13:21):
to be made that it could be a sports car
without an internal combustion engine. Yeah, sure, okay, yeah, what
about did you mention this one? The Tesla Roadster. That's
what I'm talking about, right, that's one. And then you know,
there was gonna be another car that we're gonna talk
about in a future podcast, um called the Detroit Electric Car.
And that was really a that's a Tesla that's electrified
by a company called the Detroit Electric But Tesla did it,
(13:43):
you know, decade ago. So I don't know why they're
even bothering with this, but we're still hearing about that.
It's a little bit of vaporware. But um, alright, some
other quick things here that I'm thinking of the going
some other stuff. Um, okay, here's here's an interesting one.
Does it have to be convertible because some people, some
people believe that it has to be a drop top
roadster in order to you know, be a sports car.
(14:04):
And I don't agree. I think that's a kind of
sports car. I I agree, I agree. So so here's
the thing, though, So are all roadsters sports cars? And
are all sports cars roadsters? I know that I don't
think that's either. I think I don't think that one
goes either way. Yeah, I don't think. Well, but I
think a lot of people do feel like a sports
car needs to be a convertible. Well, if it's the sport.
(14:27):
If you want a sports car that is a convertible,
then by all means, get one. But here's the thing
about it. Convertible. It doesn't have the same impact on performance.
It's more of I think, an aesthetic part in the
fact of the detriment because oftentimes you'll find that by
removing the roof, you add weight to the mechanism that
is required to handle the roof once it's folded down,
(14:50):
and as well as um, you know, you're you're costing
yourself with aerodynamics. See that's what I'm saying. It's it's
an aesthetic thing. And so if you define a sports
car purely by that kind of aesthetic stuff, there's a
slippery slope there, my friends, because if we start with
that one definition, it's like that old uh it's like
(15:11):
the old children's book if you give the mouse a cookie,
because then the next thing we're gonna be talking about
is going to be, well, what kind of tires is
it allowed to have? Right? And tires, I think are
a much better case because tires have a much more
um significant impact on performance. For better or worse. But
then we'd say, well, like wait, we kindah what kind
(15:34):
of headlights? What's the front end looked like? Tell me
tell me about how the back end? What's the general shape?
Oh and then uh, you know, real sports cars are
only read but you know what I mean. But all
of this stuff that we're talking about, just about everything
here transforms over time. I mean the manufacturers, they create
better tires, they make the shapes a little more aerodamic
and better. So is the shape of the car as
(15:55):
interesting as it was back in the nineties seventies when
they first started making that car, and ninteen sixties or
ninteen ift he's even maybe not maybe they're not even
making it anymore. But they found a better way along
the way, or they think they found a better way
along the way, and it might remove some of that
sporty look of the vehicle, it might enhance it. Um,
there's so many different angles to all this stuff. So, um,
(16:16):
how about this practicality? Does a sports car have to
be non practical to be a true sports car? Because
there are a lot of cars that Okay, how about
this one. Here's one that um and I think we
can disqualify this one right away. But people at Porsche
are going to agree the Porsche Panamera not the four
door four seats. But it's I mean, it looks like
(16:37):
one of their other models just stretched out really in
the middle. That's all. I mean, that's that's really the
only difference in the whole thing. And there's a little
bit of difference. I get that, but but but people
will consider that one not a not a sports car
might be a sports sedan, and there are sports coops
and see, there's these different kind of crossover categories. And
I hate that GURM crossover by the way, but there's
a lot of different crossover categories that that these sports
(17:00):
cars or what we thought of the sports cars kind
of fit into. Now, well it doesn't. The Okay, yes,
I disqualify the Panamera with no bad blood to the
folks at Porsche, but it's to me it has negative
ten points already because it's a stand and then it
also has here's the kicker. Porsche describes it as a
(17:23):
luxury vehicle. Really yeah, as a luxury four door sedand okay,
I'm having a hard time distinguishing the two because it
to me, I mean, it's a giant car. It looks
it looks like a Porsche. It does. It definitely fits
the Porsche line. I mean, it matches their they're styling.
It's got a mean engines, got the that V eight Yeah, sure, yep,
(17:43):
And it seems like it would be a blasted drive.
I've seen people who have reviewed these and said, you know,
it's a it's a fun car to drive despite its size.
But see there's always that asterisk after it. This car
handles really well even though you know, whatever the two
seats behind me, or the length of the vehicle or
you know, whatever it happens to be, or the way
to the vehicle. This is a fantastic car for what
it is. Yeah, well there's always that, right, there's always
(18:06):
that end. So all right, so there's that, you know,
the practicality, and there's probably another dozen or so cars
out there right now. I mean, think about sports cars,
cars that people consider sports cars that they use a
daily driver. I mean that would be one and other
cars that people consider a sports car, like some Mustangs,
which I know they're not gonna like to hear that again,
but that's true, and us fired well, honestly, these are
(18:28):
great performing cars, but they're pony cars. Yeah, that's a
pony car through but no one ever uses the term
pony car anymore, not really, I mean outside of you
know this, like an enthusiast group, or maybe within road
and track or something when they're when they're comparing pony cars. Yeah,
well okay, yeah, I've got a few other ideas that
I arrived at via comparison, okay, and I think we're
(18:51):
getting towards it when we talk about practicality. So ordinary cars,
while we consider daily drivers, are built with a few
common things in mind. Normally it's normally it's gonna be
something like safety, consistency, uh, fuel economy or thriftiness, right,
(19:12):
and then consideration for space, whether that's for passengers or cargo,
and those both kind of fall under the idea of
comfort and efficiency. But sports cars sacrifice almost all of
that for the pursuit of performance and handling and acceleration.
(19:33):
You know. So you're gonna you're not really going to
have a huge trunk. You're not gonna have uh seats
for five right, You're not gonna have um not to
give and take. Yeah, it's a give and take. I
mean you're gonna you know that you're only gonna have
two seats. You're not gonna be able to take the
family on a trip in this car. Performance is the priority. Sure,
you know, you're not gonna be able to take the
golf clubs to the to the golf course in this
(19:55):
car unless you don't have a passenger and you put
them in a passenger seat because you're not gonna have
You're simply not gonna have the trunk space to do
that in most vehicles now, unless you get a car
that has, you know, a specific space set aside for
something like that. You know, the manufacturers designed that you
know for long cargo or whatever. Um, And that happens occasionally.
I get, I get that that happens, but um, efficiency,
(20:17):
I mean, come on, that's that's one that shouldn't even
really come to mind when you're talking about buying a
true sports car. I think, which is what's sticky to
me about the hybrid stuff. Honestly, Yeah, I mean, well, okay,
I don't think that they're doing it. What do you
what's your opinion? Do you think they're doing it because
of cafe standards? Already? And I can't even say it
with a straight face, They're not doing it because the
(20:39):
cafe stud I don't know. I mean maybe maybe in
a manufacturer that only makes two or three models and
one of them happens, you know, this is let's Slay
McLaren and they have to meet cafe standards to be
able to and poured here to the United States. Yeah,
I don't think that's the overarching I don't think that's
the biggest factor, know what I mean. I think it's
I believe that the move to hybrid engines is arising
(21:03):
partially because the technology is increasingly there. It's closer and
closer to what it needs to be. I don't think
it's there yet, to be candid, Well, it's pretty impressive
what they do in their top end models, the ones
that are you know, a million dollars plus. Look at
the La Ferrari and look at the the p one
and I keep mentioning the portion of nine eighteen Spider.
That's an impressive one right there as well. So there's
(21:26):
one right there. And by the way, Lamborghini is soon
to come out with its own hybrid model, and I
gotta tell you, I don't think Lamborghini is doing that
because they really feel like they're saving the Earth with
a hybrid model or anything. There's probably a reason there's
there benefits to it is that you know, the the
um you know, the the immediate torque. Of course, able
to stuff two motors in the front wheels and still
(21:47):
have a gasolene engine power in the rear wheels. This
is the stereon, right, Yeah, that's right, And it was
a twenty nineteen or something like that. It's it's way
out still, But I I don't feel like they're doing
it for uh know, the save the earth purposes that
Nissan is doing it with the Leaf. I think that
they're doing it because well, to be quite honest, because
McLaren has done it, Ferrari has done it, Porsche has
(22:08):
done it. I think we need to have something in
that market space, and that's why we're doing it. So,
of course their benefits, but you can't really stuff something
like that into the car without making it, you know,
exponentially more expensive. Because I think that the the Lamborghinni
that's coming out in twenty nineteen, they're projecting like a
half million dollars for that thing. Yeah, and that's that's
Oh that's another question. What's that? Is there a certain
(22:31):
threshold of costs that would make the difference between a
sports car and a supercar, or should we even separate
suparcar Going back to the simple mg s and and
Triumphs and uh, you know the Jaguars and stuff. You know,
I mean the early Jaguars, the ones that weren't a
hundred grand, the ones in and they're expensive but not
that's another topic. So going back to that simplicity that
(22:54):
that just fun to drive, tossable vehicle that was lightweight,
had a four cylinder engine, but it had a manual
trains mission. Um, it was unforgiving, but it was fun
to drive, and once you learn how to drive it,
you could really drive it well and just have a
good time with it. And I think that's what a
lot of people are looking for. And this blurred line
this uh this um uh, this kind of intangible experience
(23:16):
that that people have when they're in these cars. I
mean that that you can drive a car that's not
necessarily a sports car, but it is sporty or it
has some level of sportiness built into it by the manufacturer,
and they know that. I mean, look at many all
the many cars they've got, they've got real seats, um Okay,
there's I think there might be one that's a two seater.
Isn't the kupa two seater? I think I'll look it up.
(23:37):
As we know, I'll say it honestly, guys. You know
I'm not the biggest fan of minis. Yeah, well, okay,
old minis are great. Again, I've said it before, but
just don't make don't call it a mini and make
it bigger and bigger and bigger, you know what I mean?
All Right, Well you're talking, okay, So I got a
question for you then, because I just recently had this
(23:57):
discussion with my wife. What's your opinion on the on
the old, old, old man, I mean the classic minis,
you know, the nineteen nine, late fifties through the nineteen seventies,
Many or nineteen eighties, I guess in some parts of
the world, but not here. What's your what's your thought
on those? Do you like the original or do you
like the kind of the the first generation of the
(24:18):
many that came over the United States recently? I don't
remember what year was. I prefer the old one. I'll
be honest with you. I prefer the old win. Neither
of them are really the car for me. But just
in terms of looks, and yeah, I'm usually gonna go
with the older one. That that's not to say that
(24:40):
the the new wave of the resurrection of manies or
the resurgents of what they have here in the States,
since it's necessarily bad. I just think at some point
you have to ask yourself, how different can this vehicle
become before it is no longer what you know it
(25:01):
originally was inspired by. That's true, Yeah, and that's why
a lot of people, I think, I think there's a
fair amount of people that that feel like yet has
grown a little bit out of control over the last
couple of generations, a couple of releases. You can you
can park them side by side and see them grow.
I mean, yeah, and maybe I'm maybe I'm just being
a cranky old man, but thrown off my law and
(25:22):
I guess we're both in that camp though, But several
people are the same way. I mean, I have to
say that I'm a fan of the original many's now
the Cooper s versions of course, you know the John
Works Coopers and all those great vehicles. You know they
were they were I guess sort of sports cars. I mean,
they probably weren't considered sports cars, but they had a
back seat, a small back seat, but that's at two people.
(25:43):
They weren't necessarily like the fastest cars on the road
by any means. I mean, there were a lot of
other um vehicles out there that you could choose that
were a little bit more expensive, a little bit faster.
But it was a fun to drive car that was small.
It was it was something that it's kind of like
the everyman car. Yeah, but that's that's sporty at best, right,
A sporty sure? Yeah, well that's okay, that's it. Yeah,
(26:03):
it's a sporty version of the car. It's not necessarily
a sports car. Well, it never really was considered a
sports car. You don't say no, I would hope that. Well,
but you know what, the people that drive them might
think that. They might think that's a sports car, as
would people that drive a Camaross or the drive. I
keep picking on Mustangs, but I shouldn't. But the people
who drive a Mustang g T they might think that.
Now what about Corvette drivers? That's a sports car? Oh yeah,
(26:26):
I don't think there's anyone denying that that's a sports car.
That's that meets all the criteria that we're talking about,
and we're gonna have We're gonna have an interesting conversation
to This is a little bit of a spoiler alert. Listeners,
in a bit, you're going to hear an episode coming
from us in the next few weeks where we talk
about some of the most anticipated cars of the coming
(26:47):
year and talk about crossover, talk about blending categories of cars.
There's some there. We're going to be living in some
interesting times and people are making people being car manufacturers
have taken some big risks. In my opinion, Yeah, I
think so, but we'll see if it even if you
(27:08):
know involves if it ever comes out. Really that's true.
Still at that point, every time you're waiting on something
to come out, you can find yourself in an Alio
Motors situation. Shots fired. But here's here's a quote that
I read that I think we can all appreciate. Uh,
there was a common in a forum that said sports
(27:30):
cars are a matter of perspective. Especially considering that I'm
paraphrasing here, that technology means some of those trade offs
aren't as absolute or black and white as they once were.
So here's the point, Like a modern V six camera
is faster than a Nighties Ferrari three oh eight. Okay, right, yeah,
(27:52):
well by that, but but no one would no one
would really say if you if you had to, if
you had to choose, which of these is sports car?
No one's gonna point to the camera over that Ferrari. No,
so you're saying, park from side by side, and of
course people are gonna point at the Ferrari and say
that's the sports car and not point at the Would
(28:12):
you say it was a nis Hut or Toyota, what camera?
Come on? Because there's probably a hundred cars out there
right now that are still that exceed that performance in
whatever you know, parameters that you want to put on that,
whether it's zero to sixty, whether it's top speed, whatever
happens to be. Maybe just outright horse power and torque numbers.
(28:34):
Um man. That's that's really and I mean that shows
you exactly how how we're advancing. And we talked about,
you know, the new engine technologies, how these V six
engines or even you know, uh, turbo four cylinder engines
are best thing eight cylinder engines. But that's that's going
way way back to that. Think about those giant V
twelve engines or the huge V eights that powered cars
(28:55):
in the in the twenties and thirties. That the horse
power and torque right now to work was high on those,
but the but the horse power not so much there.
So they didn't have not in modern context. No, but
they weren't really going for speed or anything like that.
That Ford we were just talking about, I think I
think it's like an estimated six horse powers for the
g ty. Yeah, it's like six eight for the street,
(29:17):
and I want to stay close to a thousand for
the track. That's something like that. Crazy, Yeah, that's a
V six, so do Okay, here's another thing, Um, when
we were talking to go back to aesthetic stuff, uh scoops, spoilers,
stuff like that. Can we agree that those are not
necessary components of a sports Well, okay, that depends. I
think that it's based on engine design. And then of
(29:40):
course some cars that had Rammar systems that were functional.
There are a lot of cars that you might need
you might yeah, sure, And what about, um, what about
spoilers on the back that are functional versus the ones
that you can buy at pep boys. Now, okay, last
night I saw it a three fifty at Sune, okay,
And it was in front of me. It was dark,
(30:01):
it was nighttime raining, about two or three cars ahead
of me in the rain. It's a black car, but
it had one of those spoilers on the back that's
like four ft in the air, I mean, way way
up in the air. Like I don't know if it's
functioning out. I mean, of course the car sounded great,
has exhaust as well, and you had nice big wide
tires and it was it was dropped and everything. But
(30:21):
I don't know if that was a really functional wing
or not. I couldn't tell you, or if it was
just for the look. Could have been held on with
two flimsy little wood screws in the back and that's it.
But um, you see that kind of stuff out there,
you see, like, okay, that's Saturn. Then I talked about
one time that had like a event on the on
the on the on the passenger cabin area and it's
(30:43):
it's it's not functional, it's just you know, it's it's
sitting on top there exactly right. Yeah. We I think
we've talked about add ons in the past two and
whether they're functional and whether or not functional and but
but I do feel that in certain sports cars, like
you have to you have to keep the engine cool.
So so some instances of this I think that's fine. Others,
(31:05):
you know, I don't know, like some of the splitters
and things like that that people put on their street cars.
Not necessary, but it looks pretty cool. Well, and I
think we can all agree that the one thing all
sports cars cap when you get past all the things
that we could argue about for all all of this
episode of more episodes, there is one thing that every
sports car is required to have, both legally, I would
(31:28):
say ethically, even aesthetically that perhaps morally, whistle Tips. You
really had me. I thought you were going to come
with something that I'm gonna say like, oh, yeah, you're
right exactly. Whistle tips. Yeah you don't even pretty soon
you won't even need a driver, just tipsy, just a
good god old bub rub as your friend. Yeah. So
(31:50):
I I bring that up. I know it's such a sidebar,
but I bring it up because I was showing some
of our coworkers the whistle Tips video and one of
and was convinced that it was sketch comedy and said, no,
this is from a morning show years ago. An actual report.
That's an actual report that the guy they happened across
it was Bubba Bubba Bubba littles little cis Yeah, that's right, right,
(32:14):
It's been a while since I've seen that one, but
just time quality clip quality clip clip, So I look,
I am joking about that, But I do think that
if we're I do think that one of the biggest
things we're talking about would be uh weight to power ratio,
and then rear world drive is hugely important. I don't
(32:38):
know if you can really say, um, I I don't
know if you can say that a car that is
exclusively front will drive would be a true sports car
because it maybe a true sports car something you take
on the track, right that you can you can drive
(32:58):
on the track when you buy a factory sure, like
you don't have to buy an extra package to get
it to make it attracted. Sure. Yeah. And then if
you're if we're talking about being on the track, the
real world drive is going to be superior. Well yeah,
I mean that's a preference, but you can you can
raise it for a wheel drive vehicle. You can raise
an all wheel drive vehicle. Um, what about the how
(33:19):
to civic type are that's coming out. What about the
golf Type Are you know, g T I Type ARE
is finally coming to America. Yeah, that's true. Probably that's true. Well,
I mean, but it doesn't impact the argument. That's true.
Well so so think about this though, People that buy
that vehicle and they're gonna feel like they're in a
sports car. They feel like they've just purchased a sports
car because the way that thing is going to perform,
(33:40):
especially if they were driving an older model regular civic.
Well yeah, of course, of course they will, or you
know what, honestly, just about anything else, because that's gonna
be a strong performer. But it's gonna be fun to drive,
and that that's thing. That's the that's the you know, like,
that's the intangible part, exactly right, that's the intangible part.
It's gonna be a blasted drive when you get it.
It's gonna make you smile. And isn't that a turbo
(34:01):
four engine? I believe it is. Yes, So there we go,
and uh, I think, yeah, I think that that's a
pretty good argument, honestly, Scott is because the Type ARE
is I would say it's sporty, though I wouldn't say
it's an out sports car. Okay, I would buy that.
I would buy that it's sporty or has some level
(34:23):
of sporting and is built into it by the manufacturers,
as the definition would say, or people that would argue
that definition would say. Um, so again, this is all
really difficult to quantify, to qualify, but there are some
places that try to do so. Ah. Yes, and uh,
I've come across sort of a funny document here. Now
(34:44):
it wasn't it wasn't intended to be funny, but it
kind of is when you read it, read through it,
and there's no way that I can cover this whole thing.
So I will just maybe uh point you in the
right direction and you can look this up for yourself.
But well, we'll briefly discuss this a little bit of
background Scott as as we go into this. This is
the reason we gave Nolan nickname. And there's a very
(35:05):
strange story that you ran across. Yeah, Ben, there's a
I guess we'll call it a scholarly article, um that
that is all about what is a sports car? And
this comes from a couple of researchers who are from
a different universities. One is from the University of Brussels
in Belgium. And the other one who participated this was
from the University of Pennsylvania, the Warden School in Pennsylvania,
(35:28):
and they collaborated on this on this document. And the
idea was that they're gonna they're gonna try to find
a way to classify all the cars that were in Belgium. Now,
this is because Belgium has the ability to import cars
from all over the world. They've got all the European
brands and marks to choose from, you know, just about
(35:49):
from everywhere. Really, they also have a very complex bureaucracy. Yeah, well,
there's there's a here's just a scope of what they're
dealing with. Here, there's a potential for them to choose
one of five hundred and eighty one different car models
in Belgium. So you've got an option of almost six
hundred different types of vehicles in Belgium, but there's no
way to say which ones are sports cars. Now, why
(36:11):
would you even really care about that? Because of all
that stuff we just talked about, right, and then all
this study. By the way, I should say, the best
I can determine I can't really, I can't even find
a year on this thing when it was done, but
I think that it was done in the early nineties
based on some of the citations that they have at
the end of the study that they are from the
late nineteen eighties. Yes, all right, so six in our cars.
They're trying to German a way to to find out
(36:33):
if there're a a quote normal car or a sports car.
And the reason all this comes about, Ben you you
probably know the reason, right, this is just for thegulous.
It's for taxes. It's it's a way to uh, you know,
increase the insurance on the on the sports cars versus
the cars that are you know, quote unquote normal. So
it's all about finding a way to tax and to
(36:56):
you know, add costs on to uh you know, some
of the all the seas of people that are driving
cars that it should be considered sports cars in their mind.
So how do you do that? Based on everything we
just talked about, Because that's these questions have been floating
around for a long long time because before didn't they say, uh,
the insurers in Belgium used a variable called vehicles of
(37:16):
a sporting nature. Yeah, yeah, so what does that mean? Right?
I we got to figure out what vehicles of a
sporting nature means and how do they do this? So
this is what's funny, and this is why you should
look this up, because there is a there's a formula
and you can look at this format and it's a
confusing forum. It's a math formula and there's no way
I'm going to even be able to describe what this
formula looks like. But it's a very short formula. It's
(37:38):
like W over P. The square root of three over
s divided by four c C s A is less
than seventeen. That's the way. That's the way they determine this.
Now what all that means and you'll have to again
look at this all bit. But the the variables the parameters. Here,
W is the way to the car, and kilograms P
is the power of the engine, which is described as
(38:00):
d I N horse power, which is kind of like
um metric course power really measured at the output shaft.
S is the number of seats in the vehicle, and
c C is the engine capacity in leaders Now, all
that has to be less than seventeen and then that
means that the vehicles a of a sporting nature. If
the number that you you get from that formula is
(38:20):
less than seventeen. So and this is a little bit
weird because there's some history behind it, this formula. They
didn't necessarily make it up. It dates all the way
back to the seventies, that's right, Yeah, so it came
from somewhere. So a Formula one driver, I believe a
Belgian Formula one driver created this formula to determine, you know,
which vehicles should be considered sports cars on the road.
(38:42):
And that's the old way of doing things that they
are trying to this this paper, this uh, this this
scholarly um academic writing is trying to find a new
way to measure the vehicles that are in Belgium. So uh,
clearly they have a huge problem with the cars that
are in Belgium, right right. The point it out to
the that there were a couple of readily apparent flaws
(39:05):
in the formula. The it's very sensitive to the number
of seats, which we have talked about. It doesn't take
into account some of the technical innovations right from because
it's from the seventies. Uh. And my favorite of of
their big criticisms are, quote, the use of third and
(39:26):
fourth roots has no physical justification, which which sounds like
I could see these two guys racking their brains and going,
why why do you have these roots on here? Yeah,
it seems kind of silly, but but honestly, I mean
when you look at the parameters that they're using, it's
not so bad really. When they look at weight, they
look at power, they look at the number of seats,
the the entry capacity. It kind of fits enter ties
(39:49):
into the classic definition of a sports car. So they're
trying to find a way to um determine which what
so that they can add and get this on top
of basic premium costs, uh to individuals that own vehicles
that that fit the sporting nature I guess. And by
the way, that does not apply to other vehicles. No,
And there's a huge list now. They they do have
(40:11):
all five dred and eighty one charted out here, and
there's lots of charts and graphs and it will make
you go across side looking at it. What they did however,
in this study, So if you do open it, you'll
find that you can look at about one hundred you
can look at about one hundred examples from their six
hundred and look at the cars that they determine as
sporty versus not sporty, and just I don't know if
(40:31):
we can even give a few examples here because they
broke it down really really far into uh ten different No,
there's twelve different UM categories in this in this uh
this chart, this this UM this big matrix that they
created of of sports cars versus normal cars and strange,
I mean, like some of the Fiat cars that we
(40:53):
would consider probably as sporty or even sports cars qualify
as normal vehicles under this, and then other cars that
you would think of is not necessarily a sports car,
UH do qualify sports cars like, um, there's a there's
a Ford Fiesta that's on there as a sports car,
but it's the XR two model, so maybe that's what
makes the difference. There's, um, let's see Volkswagen Sharaco. The
(41:14):
standard Sharaco doesn't come up as a sports car. However,
the G T, g T and g T X models
do come up as a sports car. UM. It's just
a fascinating list to look at, and really it's it's
quickly you can quickly go through it because the final
column here, the twelfth column is the one that they
denotes that either they get a zero or one. One.
One is a sports car. Zero is just a normal car,
(41:36):
average car. Yeah, and uh, it is strange when you
see that Fiesta. And it's also it's based on the
best quantitative analysis they could do, and they they messed
around with the formula a little bit to to try
to improve on it. Right, So they put in um,
they put in measurements for maximum torque that's big one,
(42:01):
maximum engine speed rpm. Uh. And even just adding those
two I think gives us a more sophisticated understanding of it. Yeah.
But I gotta tell you, man, I was amazed when
you when you showed this to me. There really is
an academic paper for everything. Yeah, and take a look
at it. I mean, just even if you just quickly
scroll through this paper, it's it's worth a look and
(42:23):
roth three just to just to see what it's all about.
It's kind of funny in some ways. Other ways you're thinking, like, well,
this is all about how how to really charge more
money for certain for certain drivers on the road. And uh,
I guess a lot of people were probably pretty irked
at that when they got nicked with an extra on
their premium. Look at and and also you know, if
you make a claim. Uh. They were saying that, you know,
(42:45):
the claims for these sports cross is often a lot higher.
So there's there's a lot of justification for why they're
doing this. Uh. But then again there's also a lot
of reasons why they maybe just shouldn't mess with it.
Maybe they should just you know, leave it alone. And
this is a tip for the Belgians in the audience.
You check out this paper before. Yeah, that's right. Yeah,
I mean, well it's an older list of course, so
(43:06):
I don't know how much of this really pertains because
I mean they've got like the burtony X one nine model, um,
you know, the Sobs, Sonnets and things like that on
the list. You know that aren't around anymore. So my
needs are right to the to the ducks and see
if we can get a an updated list. Yeah yeah, maybe,
I mean, but it's an interest. It's it's kind of
(43:26):
interesting to look through. Okay. The Lamborghini Countash is on
this list, so that gives you an idea of how
old it is, right all right, So and clearly that's
a sports car, but the Maserati Quad Report is not
a sports car. Um. Just it's fun to look at
that and to see, you know what, what's there? And
I'm sure that you can find the full six D
somewhere and if it matches, what what you if the
cars you think are or sports cars are you know,
(43:49):
jibing with this? Yeah, well that's the thing like that,
everybody's gonna read this a slightly different way. They're gonna
look at it and they're gonna raise their eyebrows like, what,
that's not a sports car and the other ones they're
gonna say kind of scrunch their their brow and say,
I don't think so, I don't think that one qualifies.
And then go take a look at the photo of
it and it's like, now, that's not a sports car,
but but it meets the criteria based on the new
formula that they've created. So they've got it. They've got
(44:11):
a new formula. There's a method to the man. So
that formula that I mentioned earlier has been changed, has
been adapted tools with a lot more variables, not well,
a few more variables, I guess, yeah, but just a
further way to break things down in a lot of ways. Yeah,
And and this is this is I've read that however
you want. This was our best. Uh, this was our
(44:33):
best find for a quantitative measurement or definition of a
sports car that wasn't just a matter of perspective. Yeah,
it seems like mostly it's just should be like a
seat of the pants thing. I means, just how you
feel about your vehicle or how does it drive. Yeah,
I mean you may may drive something that has you know,
two more seats behind you, has a four cylinder engine,
(44:56):
but man, is that thing fun to drive? And to
you that's a sports car? I say, that's perfectly fine
if you if you feel like your car is a
sports car? Why not? Why not? I mean it won't
maybe it isn't classified as that, but maybe that's good,
maybe not being texts can believe in Belgium. In Belgium, well,
and you know here we've got things like there's gas
(45:16):
guttl or taxes and things like that for some of
these vehicles that we are talking about. Our insurance rates Yeah,
well yeah, sure, higher insurance rates and that. And you
know they're looking at stuff like this, you know, what
what is considered, what classifications so um, in a way,
it's very similar here in the States, and I'm sure
that elsewhere around the world. It's similar as well. We
just we're not picking on Belgium by any means, but
(45:37):
for them to have this academic paper that that that
clearly defines all this and points it out, I mean
it's interesting. That's where that's where it comes in. Man,
it all comes down to the brass text of all
comes down to money. Yeah, yeah, it's all dollars and cents,
and for some people with sports cars, it all comes
down to speed and handling for the practical rather than
(45:58):
the aesthetic applications. We want to know what you think,
Ladies and gentlemen. Check us out on Facebook and Twitter.
We're car Stuff HSW. We would love to We would
love to see your opinion of what is and is
not a sports car. I think we're gonna get a
lot more people saying that is not a sports car?
(46:18):
Can I mentioned? Is one more quick thing? Yeah? What's
funny to me when I looked at a lot of
lists of what people considered to be sports cars and
what other people, you know, would are you against in
the the formable or the you know the comments below.
Some people would look at that list and say, are
you kidding me? You didn't even include a single lotus
vehicle in this whole list, and what is a sports car?
Almost everything that they make is the sports What about
(46:40):
Panas the cars we just talked that whole Panas operation
that's here in Georgia. They only make sports cars and
track day cars. Um, you'll find that they're glaring emissions
on some some lists and others. They're gonna have editions
that you don't think should be there, strange lists. I mean,
you're gonna find a ton of them. How would you
(47:00):
list every sports car? Though? You just can't rule you
can't because I think I read somewhere that the first
sports cars go back to nineteen ten, which is prior
to the first use of the word sports car in
popular media, which is like in the nineteen it was
nineteen nine, think it was nineteen twenty, let me say
it's it's it's it's the late nineteen twenties. But sports
(47:22):
cars clearly had been around for two decades before that,
because they're racing on you know, on tracks like Indianapolis,
they're racing all over the world. Really, there's sports cars.
There's sports cars out there, but they just didn't know
what to call them until the late nineteen twenties and
they when put the term on it. Yeah, yes, absolutely so.
We we want to hear what you think should and
(47:43):
shouldn't be on these lists. This is the time to
let us know your pet peeves and your favorites, the
ones you're the super fan of. You can check out
all the other podcasts that we had mentioned on our
website car Stuff Show dot com. That's where you can
hear about the panas, so you can hear about the
luxury car stuff we mentioned. Uh, that's well, you know,
(48:04):
it's all there about muscle car definitions. You know, strict
strict muscle car definition. From what it was the name
of that site, it was a funny site, Muscle Car
Club dot com. You've got strict definitions for all this.
They were not pulling punching. They only list one car
is a sports car. It was a Corvette. Yes, um.
And you're gonna find stuff like this all over the place,
(48:25):
and it's it's really fun to dig into, really mean
more than you would think. I think it's if you
think it's gonna be a great time, you're exactly right.
I think it's it's fascinating and I always appreciate hearing
someone make a case for or against something in a
way that I did not expect. And if you have
a case you like to make four or against something
(48:45):
considered a sports car or just considered sporting, I'd like
to read that too. So go ahead and polip a computer,
not if you're driving, polp a pull up your email
or something and send Scott noll and I a letter.
You can tell us your opinion on what makes a
sports car sports car or muscle cars after you listen
(49:06):
to that episode, of course, or if you have a
suggestion or something we should cover in the future, we'd
love to hear that too. You can emails directly at
car stuff at how stuff works dot com. So more
on this and thousands of other topics is how stuff
works dot com. Let us know what you think, send
an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com.
Go behind the Wheel, under the Hood and beyond with
car Stuff from house stuff Works dot Com. Fine, welcome
to Car Stuff. I'm Scott and I'm Ben and we
are joined as always with our super producer Noel the
Racetrack Brown Racetrack. Spitfire, Spitfire. That's a good one. I
(00:25):
like that one. How about Tom Noel Track Dave Brown.
Oh yeah, that's even better. I don't know, we'll have
to well, maybe we'll work on it throughout the episode. Yeah, yeah,
maybe we will. The latest trend. Anyways, right while we're
asking ourselves what a suitable nickname for nol is, it's
kind of appropriate in this podcast because ladies and gentlemen today,
(00:45):
we are starting the show with a question that we
are going to answer to the best of our ability. However,
you may have your own answer, you may have exceptions,
you may have issues. I'm already laughing because I have
the impression that we're not really going to answer this question.
I don't I don't know if we can answer this
question because of the the way that the lines have
(01:07):
been blurred between the types of vehicles that we're gonna
talk about today. And I think I think we've talked
about this in the very recent past with what really
makes a luxury car luxury car? Right, and we've also
talked about what makes a muscle car muscle car? Sure, Yeah,
we've had a few of these along the way where um,
you know, a strict definition given by one, uh you know,
(01:28):
enthusiast group or um, you know, maybe even a dictionary. Um,
is now being kind of that that line is kind
of being muddied. It's being jostled around a bit, so
that your expectations of of of what a vehicle should
be if it's in this class or category is different
than what you may get now versus what you've got
decades ago. Oh, here's one know, the Belgian brown that's
(01:53):
going you know what, that's a little foreshadow, that is
foreshadow and uh, okay, there's a whole conversation we had
ahead of this. But but we will, we'll we'll work
Belgium into this into this topic here with sports cars too. Yeah,
we promise. Oh yes, and no, could we please have
some big important question music perfect, ladies and gentlemen, to
(02:14):
Daty's question, one of the great questions in automotive history,
what makes a sports car? So what in people's mind
do they picture I would guess that most of our
listeners when we say, you know, what is a sports car?
They think of you think of maybe an F what well,
(02:35):
or they think of like a maybe maybe not that.
Maybe they think of like a Corvette, or maybe they
think of, oh here's a trick when a Mustang, or
maybe they think of, you know, this is some other
model that that is like cemented in their mind as
being a sports car. But along the way, somewhere throughout history,
people have have again kind of taken this idea and said, now,
(02:56):
you know what, here's what a sports car really should be.
And then it changes over time because manufacturers come up
with cars that that kind of blurred the lines. As
I said, right, yeah, that that go from one category
of car to another. There there's some great comparisons we
can talk about two. But first if we could open
from a definition, Scott, I'd like to start there. Yeah,
(03:17):
let's do that, all right. Miriam Webster defines a sports
car as a low, small, usually two passenger automobile designed
for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high speed driving. Now
we can add a bunch of stuff to that. You know,
people might say usually it's a two seater. Sure, yeah,
they can say that, and they can also say, well,
(03:37):
it has to be rear wild drive, right. Um. And
and here's the this is the problem with all the
stuff that I'm going to mention because I've got this
list here, Ben, And the list isn't a list of cars.
It's more a list of my own questions. And I
want you to think about these maybe throughout the podcast.
And we could even stop and dwell on a couple
of these if you want to. But um, you know,
(03:57):
let's get this out of the way. Too many factors
make cars that are sporty. They make cars that have
sporting characteristics to them, you know, like tossability, you know
that you can quickly throw into a corner, or go
kart handling like many likes to say. Or it has
a great acceleration exactly right. Yeah, but how do you
measure that? Is it? Well, acceleration is one thing, so
zero sixty that's fine, But do you measure it? Do
(04:18):
you measure top speed as well? Do you measure engine RPMs?
All these things come into place. So I've got a
million questions here, and not really a million, but you know,
a bunch and uh, and I'm sure that our listener
is gonna be about able to add several to this
whole thing. So the first one is does it have
to have two seats? Could? Could one seat be a
sports car as well? Because there they're not many of
them out there, but there's some great one seat cars
(04:42):
that are definitely considered sports cars. So one seat is possible.
Now what if you say three is it? Is it
possible to have three seats and be a sports car? Yes,
But then that also goes to another question. What is
the difference between should we should we separate supercars from calls? Okay?
So what I mean? Okay, I know exactly what we're
(05:02):
going with this, because three seats implies the McLaren F
one from the early nineteen nineties or I guess through
the nineteen nineties, and and that is clearly a sports car.
That's the one I'm thinking about. What So, what do
you think of when you think of a sports car? Yeah? Sure,
Well there's three seats. You know, there's a central driving
position which is so and two passengers that flank the driver.
Clearly a sports car, no no other intent. Really, it's
(05:23):
not a luxury car. It's not all that other stuff
we talked about, And well, maybe it is a luxury
to be able to afford one, but that's definitely a
sports car, and people would argue that that it definitely is.
But it has three seats, so it doesn't meet the
clip meet the classic definition of a sports car. And
we're gonna find things like that along the way all
throughout it. So again, does it have to be rear
wheel drive? Um? I don't know. There's what about all
(05:46):
wheel drive? Does that count as a sports car because
a lot of super drivers will argue that they've got
sports cars, and so we'll sure Audie drivers that have
the Quatro system and other manufacturers that make great all
wheel drive systems. Can a sedan be a sports car
or can only aspire to be sporty? Well, okay, but
how about this? What about the ones that are the
four door coops supposedly which you can't really you know,
(06:09):
ford or coup is a funny thing to say, I
know that, But a lot of cars they are considered
four door coups and have a sporty look because they've
completely changed the roofline of those things so that they're
not really high in the back. Like they used to be.
They have very little room in the back, you know,
for headroom. But the design, the exterior design of the
car is decidedly sporty. Yeah, it's very much the sports
(06:29):
car profile. But then we go into the the area
of what one of my pet Peeve Scott and you
know this, listeners, you probably know this too. I don't.
I don't like token back seats. I think they're disingenuous.
So you're talking about like the even there are some
cars I think that even have like fold down seats
that you know, if you needed you can put it
(06:51):
back up because it's connected to the trunk area or um,
you know, maybe the ones that have seats that well
it's two plus two seating. Really, yes, that's probably the
best and the best one that I can think of.
And I had this on my list somewhere here that
I got come up with. But the lotus of Vora
and the lotus of Wora back seat that's that comically
small back seats. It's described as two plus two seating,
(07:11):
which we know is two adults in the front, two
kids in the back. And when I say two kids
in the back, preferably kids in car seats so that
their legs don't have to hang down between the back
seat and the driver's seat or the passengers because it's
way way too small. So that that's that's probably the
best example of a token back seat I can think
of in the modern era. I mean, right now, I
(07:32):
know Porsche has a couple of cars that have some
token back seats as well. So what are some of
these other questions? All right? So, um, do cylinder count matter?
I mean, what if what if you have a four
cylinder or six cylinder and eight cylinder or more, does
it have to have a certain amount of cylinders? That
one I'm not entirely sure about. Because some of the
earliest sports cars that we brought over to the United
States that that you know, the returning this whole thing
(07:55):
that we've talked about in the past, with returning UM
veterans from the war from from World War Two. We're
in Europe and they saw the mgs, the Triumphs, the Jaguars,
and they love those cars, the sports cars, two seats,
four cylinders often I mean Jaguar is a little different,
but they would bring over, um, you know, these four
cylinder cars that were manual transmissions, had very thin tires.
(08:15):
But but they're fun to drive. They had a convertible top.
It's just an exciting little car, great handling compared to
what was being made here in the United States at
the time. So that's what they appreciated those vehicles, decided
to bring them back with them, and and that really
led to a trend here in the United States. Well,
don't let me roll over you with this one. But
as soon as we're mentioning the idea of an absolute
(08:38):
number of cylinders, I feel that we are virgin very
close to making an error in our definition because of
the evolution of technology over time. You know, it's it's
much Uh, it's much much easier now given the vast
improvements just an engineering alone, not even counting material science.
(09:00):
It's it's much easier now for a four cylinder engine
built now to just cream a four cylinder engine from
that time. Of course. Yeah, and think about the the
new what's the afford for GT the brand new supercar
that they're gonna come out within I think it is
fingers yeah, V six, but it's gonna have, of course,
(09:22):
turbo V six. It's the ego boost V six, I believe,
And uh, and it's gonna have an enormous amount of
horse power. I want to say. It's like, um, I
don't even know if I should make a guess here
is it? Is it? I think the street car is
gonna have six horse power. The track car, of course,
is gonna have much more, you know, like closer to
a thousand horse power something like that. But that's coming
out of a V six engine. So clearly we're making
(09:42):
huge advancements in the way that you know engines. And
I mean, of course this all goes with UM machining.
You know, we're having we have precise machines that allow
for extremely high compression. Everything is well put to get
extremely well put together and strong, and uh we we've
talked about this many many times. So I don't know
if we need to go much further down path, but
let's keep going with that with some of these questions
(10:02):
that I have. Doesn't have to be small. I mean,
I don't think it has to be small, uh, I mean,
that's great to be having a tiny car. You know
that that's very nimble, very agile. You know that you
can really kind of work around the turns in a
in a back country road somewhere but um, some of
these bigger, like I guess supercar type vehicles, you know,
that are considered sports cars. Some of them, Um, they're
(10:24):
they're they're just as agile, just as nimble, but you know,
they're much bigger platform that they start with. And yeah
it's different to drive, sure, But does it have to
be a certain size to be considered a sports car? Right? Again,
we're running into absolutes. Is there is there a certain
length past which something cannot be considered a sports car,
certain weight past which something cannot be considered a sports car?
(10:47):
How about this been going back to the power trains,
how about a hybrid? A hybrid sports car? Now, Man,
I don't try to argue this one away, Ben, because
we've talked about a few of these cars on our
own podcast. What about the McLaren P one or the
I mean even I'm going to even throw the Fisker
Karma in here, only you know, because I saw one
this morning and what a fantastic looking car. Yeah, it's
(11:08):
pretty still pretty rare to see even here in this area.
Was it the same one from the shows? I'm going
to have to guess that it was one of the
ones in the shows that so check out our videos
just so rare. Yeah, we have a video on it.
They're pretty rare. And I did see I saw it
on the road just before I had to exit the
highway this morning. Didn't get to see the license plate
or anything, no which one it was. But I am
going to try to argue though. Okay, just really really quickly, Okay,
(11:31):
for people who have checked out our various podcasts that
touch on hybrid racing or even electric racing, we address something.
I guess it's a little more intangible and abstract concept,
which is that when you think of not necessarily a
sports car, but when you think of racing, I'm thinking
(11:53):
specifically a hybrid racing for if you're nostalgic for it,
it's a different category. It's not quite the same. There's
just something there about the engine, the sound of the
internal combustion kicking in wild roar, the you know the
camp that I met on this. I mean, I like
the old you know F one roar, of course, but
(12:15):
not the currency. That's the thing. The current F one
engines aren't all that great sounding. They're gonna get back
to it, I think, but um, you know you're talking
about like formula eracing versus Formula one racing, and then
in other categories, like let's say it's um, you know,
different different big events, you know, even endurance events. They're
gonna have categories that have hybrid racers. And so far,
(12:36):
I haven't seen an entire race field made out of
hybrid vehicles. Know, I haven't come across that. It's probably
out there. There's probably a hybrid racing league somewhere, but
I don't know exactly what that would entail. So, um,
I know exactly what we're talking about, though, like the
the the that that quality that you just can't put
your finger on, Like, why is this not quite as
entertaining to watch as as would be a standard Formula
(12:58):
one race? It's up there with the feel of a
luxury car, right, Yeah, it's a similar thing. It's it's
tough to put a finger on exactly what you know
what makes that different for you? So okay, I guess
you know what, man, Because I'm also thinking of Tesla
and this too, I guess you could you could you
could say that there that there's a there's an argument
(13:21):
to be made that it could be a sports car
without an internal combustion engine. Yeah, sure, okay, yeah, what
about did you mention this one? The Tesla Roadster. That's
what I'm talking about, right, that's one. And then you know,
there was gonna be another car that we're gonna talk
about in a future podcast, um called the Detroit Electric Car.
And that was really a that's a Tesla that's electrified
by a company called the Detroit Electric But Tesla did it,
(13:43):
you know, decade ago. So I don't know why they're
even bothering with this, but we're still hearing about that.
It's a little bit of vaporware. But um, alright, some
other quick things here that I'm thinking of the going
some other stuff. Um, okay, here's here's an interesting one.
Does it have to be convertible because some people, some
people believe that it has to be a drop top
roadster in order to you know, be a sports car.
(14:04):
And I don't agree. I think that's a kind of
sports car. I I agree, I agree. So so here's
the thing, though, So are all roadsters sports cars? And
are all sports cars roadsters? I know that I don't
think that's either. I think I don't think that one
goes either way. Yeah, I don't think. Well, but I
think a lot of people do feel like a sports
car needs to be a convertible. Well, if it's the sport.
(14:27):
If you want a sports car that is a convertible,
then by all means, get one. But here's the thing
about it. Convertible. It doesn't have the same impact on performance.
It's more of I think, an aesthetic part in the
fact of the detriment because oftentimes you'll find that by
removing the roof, you add weight to the mechanism that
is required to handle the roof once it's folded down,
(14:50):
and as well as um, you know, you're you're costing
yourself with aerodynamics. See that's what I'm saying. It's it's
an aesthetic thing. And so if you define a sports
car purely by that kind of aesthetic stuff, there's a
slippery slope there, my friends, because if we start with
that one definition, it's like that old uh it's like
(15:11):
the old children's book if you give the mouse a cookie,
because then the next thing we're gonna be talking about
is going to be, well, what kind of tires is
it allowed to have? Right? And tires, I think are
a much better case because tires have a much more
um significant impact on performance. For better or worse. But
then we'd say, well, like wait, we kindah what kind
(15:34):
of headlights? What's the front end looked like? Tell me
tell me about how the back end? What's the general shape?
Oh and then uh, you know, real sports cars are
only read but you know what I mean. But all
of this stuff that we're talking about, just about everything
here transforms over time. I mean the manufacturers, they create
better tires, they make the shapes a little more aerodamic
and better. So is the shape of the car as
(15:55):
interesting as it was back in the nineties seventies when
they first started making that car, and ninteen sixties or
ninteen ift he's even maybe not maybe they're not even
making it anymore. But they found a better way along
the way, or they think they found a better way
along the way, and it might remove some of that
sporty look of the vehicle, it might enhance it. Um,
there's so many different angles to all this stuff. So, um,
(16:16):
how about this practicality? Does a sports car have to
be non practical to be a true sports car? Because
there are a lot of cars that Okay, how about
this one. Here's one that um and I think we
can disqualify this one right away. But people at Porsche
are going to agree the Porsche Panamera not the four
door four seats. But it's I mean, it looks like
(16:37):
one of their other models just stretched out really in
the middle. That's all. I mean, that's that's really the
only difference in the whole thing. And there's a little
bit of difference. I get that, but but but people
will consider that one not a not a sports car
might be a sports sedan, and there are sports coops
and see, there's these different kind of crossover categories. And
I hate that GURM crossover by the way, but there's
a lot of different crossover categories that that these sports
(17:00):
cars or what we thought of the sports cars kind
of fit into. Now, well it doesn't. The Okay, yes,
I disqualify the Panamera with no bad blood to the
folks at Porsche, but it's to me it has negative
ten points already because it's a stand and then it
also has here's the kicker. Porsche describes it as a
(17:23):
luxury vehicle. Really yeah, as a luxury four door sedand okay,
I'm having a hard time distinguishing the two because it
to me, I mean, it's a giant car. It looks
it looks like a Porsche. It does. It definitely fits
the Porsche line. I mean, it matches their they're styling.
It's got a mean engines, got the that V eight Yeah, sure, yep,
(17:43):
And it seems like it would be a blasted drive.
I've seen people who have reviewed these and said, you know,
it's a it's a fun car to drive despite its size.
But see there's always that asterisk after it. This car
handles really well even though you know, whatever the two
seats behind me, or the length of the vehicle or
you know, whatever it happens to be, or the way
to the vehicle. This is a fantastic car for what
it is. Yeah, well there's always that, right, there's always
(18:06):
that end. So all right, so there's that, you know,
the practicality, and there's probably another dozen or so cars
out there right now. I mean, think about sports cars,
cars that people consider sports cars that they use a
daily driver. I mean that would be one and other
cars that people consider a sports car, like some Mustangs,
which I know they're not gonna like to hear that again,
but that's true, and us fired well, honestly, these are
(18:28):
great performing cars, but they're pony cars. Yeah, that's a
pony car through but no one ever uses the term
pony car anymore, not really, I mean outside of you
know this, like an enthusiast group, or maybe within road
and track or something when they're when they're comparing pony cars. Yeah,
well okay, yeah, I've got a few other ideas that
I arrived at via comparison, okay, and I think we're
(18:51):
getting towards it when we talk about practicality. So ordinary cars,
while we consider daily drivers, are built with a few
common things in mind. Normally it's normally it's gonna be
something like safety, consistency, uh, fuel economy or thriftiness, right,
(19:12):
and then consideration for space, whether that's for passengers or cargo,
and those both kind of fall under the idea of
comfort and efficiency. But sports cars sacrifice almost all of
that for the pursuit of performance and handling and acceleration.
(19:33):
You know. So you're gonna you're not really going to
have a huge trunk. You're not gonna have uh seats
for five right, You're not gonna have um not to
give and take. Yeah, it's a give and take. I
mean you're gonna you know that you're only gonna have
two seats. You're not gonna be able to take the
family on a trip in this car. Performance is the priority. Sure,
you know, you're not gonna be able to take the
golf clubs to the to the golf course in this
(19:55):
car unless you don't have a passenger and you put
them in a passenger seat because you're not gonna have
You're simply not gonna have the trunk space to do
that in most vehicles now, unless you get a car
that has, you know, a specific space set aside for
something like that. You know, the manufacturers designed that you
know for long cargo or whatever. Um, And that happens occasionally.
I get, I get that that happens, but um, efficiency,
(20:17):
I mean, come on, that's that's one that shouldn't even
really come to mind when you're talking about buying a
true sports car. I think, which is what's sticky to
me about the hybrid stuff. Honestly, Yeah, I mean, well, okay,
I don't think that they're doing it. What do you
what's your opinion? Do you think they're doing it because
of cafe standards? Already? And I can't even say it
with a straight face, They're not doing it because the
(20:39):
cafe stud I don't know. I mean maybe maybe in
a manufacturer that only makes two or three models and
one of them happens, you know, this is let's Slay
McLaren and they have to meet cafe standards to be
able to and poured here to the United States. Yeah,
I don't think that's the overarching I don't think that's
the biggest factor, know what I mean. I think it's
I believe that the move to hybrid engines is arising
(21:03):
partially because the technology is increasingly there. It's closer and
closer to what it needs to be. I don't think
it's there yet, to be candid, Well, it's pretty impressive
what they do in their top end models, the ones
that are you know, a million dollars plus. Look at
the La Ferrari and look at the the p one
and I keep mentioning the portion of nine eighteen Spider.
That's an impressive one right there as well. So there's
(21:26):
one right there. And by the way, Lamborghini is soon
to come out with its own hybrid model, and I
gotta tell you, I don't think Lamborghini is doing that
because they really feel like they're saving the Earth with
a hybrid model or anything. There's probably a reason there's
there benefits to it is that you know, the the
um you know, the the immediate torque. Of course, able
to stuff two motors in the front wheels and still
(21:47):
have a gasolene engine power in the rear wheels. This
is the stereon, right, Yeah, that's right, And it was
a twenty nineteen or something like that. It's it's way
out still, But I I don't feel like they're doing
it for uh know, the save the earth purposes that
Nissan is doing it with the Leaf. I think that
they're doing it because well, to be quite honest, because
McLaren has done it, Ferrari has done it, Porsche has
(22:08):
done it. I think we need to have something in
that market space, and that's why we're doing it. So,
of course their benefits, but you can't really stuff something
like that into the car without making it, you know,
exponentially more expensive. Because I think that the the Lamborghinni
that's coming out in twenty nineteen, they're projecting like a
half million dollars for that thing. Yeah, and that's that's
Oh that's another question. What's that? Is there a certain
(22:31):
threshold of costs that would make the difference between a
sports car and a supercar, or should we even separate
suparcar Going back to the simple mg s and and
Triumphs and uh, you know the Jaguars and stuff. You know,
I mean the early Jaguars, the ones that weren't a
hundred grand, the ones in and they're expensive but not
that's another topic. So going back to that simplicity that
(22:54):
that just fun to drive, tossable vehicle that was lightweight,
had a four cylinder engine, but it had a manual
trains mission. Um, it was unforgiving, but it was fun
to drive, and once you learn how to drive it,
you could really drive it well and just have a
good time with it. And I think that's what a
lot of people are looking for. And this blurred line
this uh this um uh, this kind of intangible experience
(23:16):
that that people have when they're in these cars. I
mean that that you can drive a car that's not
necessarily a sports car, but it is sporty or it
has some level of sportiness built into it by the manufacturer,
and they know that. I mean, look at many all
the many cars they've got, they've got real seats, um Okay,
there's I think there might be one that's a two seater.
Isn't the kupa two seater? I think I'll look it up.
(23:37):
As we know, I'll say it honestly, guys. You know
I'm not the biggest fan of minis. Yeah, well, okay,
old minis are great. Again, I've said it before, but
just don't make don't call it a mini and make
it bigger and bigger and bigger, you know what I mean?
All Right, Well you're talking, okay, So I got a
question for you then, because I just recently had this
(23:57):
discussion with my wife. What's your opinion on the on
the old, old, old man, I mean the classic minis,
you know, the nineteen nine, late fifties through the nineteen seventies,
Many or nineteen eighties, I guess in some parts of
the world, but not here. What's your what's your thought
on those? Do you like the original or do you
like the kind of the the first generation of the
(24:18):
many that came over the United States recently? I don't
remember what year was. I prefer the old one. I'll
be honest with you. I prefer the old win. Neither
of them are really the car for me. But just
in terms of looks, and yeah, I'm usually gonna go
with the older one. That that's not to say that
(24:40):
the the new wave of the resurrection of manies or
the resurgents of what they have here in the States,
since it's necessarily bad. I just think at some point
you have to ask yourself, how different can this vehicle
become before it is no longer what you know it
(25:01):
originally was inspired by. That's true, Yeah, and that's why
a lot of people, I think, I think there's a
fair amount of people that that feel like yet has
grown a little bit out of control over the last
couple of generations, a couple of releases. You can you
can park them side by side and see them grow.
I mean, yeah, and maybe I'm maybe I'm just being
a cranky old man, but thrown off my law and
(25:22):
I guess we're both in that camp though, But several
people are the same way. I mean, I have to
say that I'm a fan of the original many's now
the Cooper s versions of course, you know the John
Works Coopers and all those great vehicles. You know they
were they were I guess sort of sports cars. I mean,
they probably weren't considered sports cars, but they had a
back seat, a small back seat, but that's at two people.
(25:43):
They weren't necessarily like the fastest cars on the road
by any means. I mean, there were a lot of
other um vehicles out there that you could choose that
were a little bit more expensive, a little bit faster.
But it was a fun to drive car that was small.
It was it was something that it's kind of like
the everyman car. Yeah, but that's that's sporty at best, right,
A sporty sure? Yeah, well that's okay, that's it. Yeah,
(26:03):
it's a sporty version of the car. It's not necessarily
a sports car. Well, it never really was considered a
sports car. You don't say no, I would hope that. Well,
but you know what, the people that drive them might
think that. They might think that's a sports car, as
would people that drive a Camaross or the drive. I
keep picking on Mustangs, but I shouldn't. But the people
who drive a Mustang g T they might think that.
Now what about Corvette drivers? That's a sports car? Oh yeah,
(26:26):
I don't think there's anyone denying that that's a sports car.
That's that meets all the criteria that we're talking about,
and we're gonna have We're gonna have an interesting conversation
to This is a little bit of a spoiler alert. Listeners,
in a bit, you're going to hear an episode coming
from us in the next few weeks where we talk
about some of the most anticipated cars of the coming
(26:47):
year and talk about crossover, talk about blending categories of cars.
There's some there. We're going to be living in some
interesting times and people are making people being car manufacturers
have taken some big risks. In my opinion, Yeah, I
think so, but we'll see if it even if you
(27:08):
know involves if it ever comes out. Really that's true.
Still at that point, every time you're waiting on something
to come out, you can find yourself in an Alio
Motors situation. Shots fired. But here's here's a quote that
I read that I think we can all appreciate. Uh,
there was a common in a forum that said sports
(27:30):
cars are a matter of perspective. Especially considering that I'm
paraphrasing here, that technology means some of those trade offs
aren't as absolute or black and white as they once were.
So here's the point, Like a modern V six camera
is faster than a Nighties Ferrari three oh eight. Okay, right, yeah,
(27:52):
well by that, but but no one would no one
would really say if you if you had to, if
you had to choose, which of these is sports car?
No one's gonna point to the camera over that Ferrari. No,
so you're saying, park from side by side, and of
course people are gonna point at the Ferrari and say
that's the sports car and not point at the Would
(28:12):
you say it was a nis Hut or Toyota, what camera?
Come on? Because there's probably a hundred cars out there
right now that are still that exceed that performance in
whatever you know, parameters that you want to put on that,
whether it's zero to sixty, whether it's top speed, whatever
happens to be. Maybe just outright horse power and torque numbers.
(28:34):
Um man. That's that's really and I mean that shows
you exactly how how we're advancing. And we talked about,
you know, the new engine technologies, how these V six
engines or even you know, uh, turbo four cylinder engines
are best thing eight cylinder engines. But that's that's going
way way back to that. Think about those giant V
twelve engines or the huge V eights that powered cars
(28:55):
in the in the twenties and thirties. That the horse
power and torque right now to work was high on those,
but the but the horse power not so much there.
So they didn't have not in modern context. No, but
they weren't really going for speed or anything like that.
That Ford we were just talking about, I think I
think it's like an estimated six horse powers for the
g ty. Yeah, it's like six eight for the street,
(29:17):
and I want to stay close to a thousand for
the track. That's something like that. Crazy, Yeah, that's a
V six, so do Okay, here's another thing, Um, when
we were talking to go back to aesthetic stuff, uh scoops, spoilers,
stuff like that. Can we agree that those are not
necessary components of a sports Well, okay, that depends. I
think that it's based on engine design. And then of
(29:40):
course some cars that had Rammar systems that were functional.
There are a lot of cars that you might need
you might yeah, sure, And what about, um, what about
spoilers on the back that are functional versus the ones
that you can buy at pep boys. Now, okay, last
night I saw it a three fifty at Sune, okay,
And it was in front of me. It was dark,
(30:01):
it was nighttime raining, about two or three cars ahead
of me in the rain. It's a black car, but
it had one of those spoilers on the back that's
like four ft in the air, I mean, way way
up in the air. Like I don't know if it's
functioning out. I mean, of course the car sounded great,
has exhaust as well, and you had nice big wide
tires and it was it was dropped and everything. But
(30:21):
I don't know if that was a really functional wing
or not. I couldn't tell you, or if it was
just for the look. Could have been held on with
two flimsy little wood screws in the back and that's it.
But um, you see that kind of stuff out there,
you see, like, okay, that's Saturn. Then I talked about
one time that had like a event on the on
the on the on the passenger cabin area and it's
(30:43):
it's it's not functional, it's just you know, it's it's
sitting on top there exactly right. Yeah. We I think
we've talked about add ons in the past two and
whether they're functional and whether or not functional and but
but I do feel that in certain sports cars, like
you have to you have to keep the engine cool.
So so some instances of this I think that's fine. Others,
(31:05):
you know, I don't know, like some of the splitters
and things like that that people put on their street cars.
Not necessary, but it looks pretty cool. Well, and I
think we can all agree that the one thing all
sports cars cap when you get past all the things
that we could argue about for all all of this
episode of more episodes, there is one thing that every
sports car is required to have, both legally, I would
(31:28):
say ethically, even aesthetically that perhaps morally, whistle Tips. You
really had me. I thought you were going to come
with something that I'm gonna say like, oh, yeah, you're
right exactly. Whistle tips. Yeah you don't even pretty soon
you won't even need a driver, just tipsy, just a
good god old bub rub as your friend. Yeah. So
(31:50):
I I bring that up. I know it's such a sidebar,
but I bring it up because I was showing some
of our coworkers the whistle Tips video and one of
and was convinced that it was sketch comedy and said, no,
this is from a morning show years ago. An actual report.
That's an actual report that the guy they happened across
it was Bubba Bubba Bubba littles little cis Yeah, that's right, right,
(32:14):
It's been a while since I've seen that one, but
just time quality clip quality clip clip, So I look,
I am joking about that, But I do think that
if we're I do think that one of the biggest
things we're talking about would be uh weight to power ratio,
and then rear world drive is hugely important. I don't
(32:38):
know if you can really say, um, I I don't
know if you can say that a car that is
exclusively front will drive would be a true sports car
because it maybe a true sports car something you take
on the track, right that you can you can drive
(32:58):
on the track when you buy a factory sure, like
you don't have to buy an extra package to get
it to make it attracted. Sure. Yeah. And then if
you're if we're talking about being on the track, the
real world drive is going to be superior. Well yeah,
I mean that's a preference, but you can you can
raise it for a wheel drive vehicle. You can raise
an all wheel drive vehicle. Um, what about the how
(33:19):
to civic type are that's coming out. What about the
golf Type Are you know, g T I Type ARE
is finally coming to America. Yeah, that's true. Probably that's true. Well,
I mean, but it doesn't impact the argument. That's true.
Well so so think about this though, People that buy
that vehicle and they're gonna feel like they're in a
sports car. They feel like they've just purchased a sports
car because the way that thing is going to perform,
(33:40):
especially if they were driving an older model regular civic.
Well yeah, of course, of course they will, or you
know what, honestly, just about anything else, because that's gonna
be a strong performer. But it's gonna be fun to drive,
and that that's thing. That's the that's the you know, like,
that's the intangible part, exactly right, that's the intangible part.
It's gonna be a blasted drive when you get it.
It's gonna make you smile. And isn't that a turbo
(34:01):
four engine? I believe it is. Yes, So there we go,
and uh, I think, yeah, I think that that's a
pretty good argument, honestly, Scott is because the Type ARE
is I would say it's sporty, though I wouldn't say
it's an out sports car. Okay, I would buy that.
I would buy that it's sporty or has some level
(34:23):
of sporting and is built into it by the manufacturers,
as the definition would say, or people that would argue
that definition would say. Um, so again, this is all
really difficult to quantify, to qualify, but there are some
places that try to do so. Ah. Yes, and uh,
I've come across sort of a funny document here. Now
(34:44):
it wasn't it wasn't intended to be funny, but it
kind of is when you read it, read through it,
and there's no way that I can cover this whole thing.
So I will just maybe uh point you in the
right direction and you can look this up for yourself.
But well, we'll briefly discuss this a little bit of
background Scott as as we go into this. This is
the reason we gave Nolan nickname. And there's a very
(35:05):
strange story that you ran across. Yeah, Ben, there's a
I guess we'll call it a scholarly article, um that
that is all about what is a sports car? And
this comes from a couple of researchers who are from
a different universities. One is from the University of Brussels
in Belgium. And the other one who participated this was
from the University of Pennsylvania, the Warden School in Pennsylvania,
(35:28):
and they collaborated on this on this document. And the
idea was that they're gonna they're gonna try to find
a way to classify all the cars that were in Belgium. Now,
this is because Belgium has the ability to import cars
from all over the world. They've got all the European
brands and marks to choose from, you know, just about
(35:49):
from everywhere. Really, they also have a very complex bureaucracy. Yeah, well,
there's there's a here's just a scope of what they're
dealing with. Here, there's a potential for them to choose
one of five hundred and eighty one different car models
in Belgium. So you've got an option of almost six
hundred different types of vehicles in Belgium, but there's no
way to say which ones are sports cars. Now, why
(36:11):
would you even really care about that? Because of all
that stuff we just talked about, right, and then all
this study. By the way, I should say, the best
I can determine I can't really, I can't even find
a year on this thing when it was done, but
I think that it was done in the early nineties
based on some of the citations that they have at
the end of the study that they are from the
late nineteen eighties. Yes, all right, so six in our cars.
They're trying to German a way to to find out
(36:33):
if there're a a quote normal car or a sports car.
And the reason all this comes about, Ben you you
probably know the reason, right, this is just for thegulous.
It's for taxes. It's it's a way to uh, you know,
increase the insurance on the on the sports cars versus
the cars that are you know, quote unquote normal. So
it's all about finding a way to tax and to
(36:56):
you know, add costs on to uh you know, some
of the all the seas of people that are driving
cars that it should be considered sports cars in their mind.
So how do you do that? Based on everything we
just talked about, Because that's these questions have been floating
around for a long long time because before didn't they say, uh,
the insurers in Belgium used a variable called vehicles of
(37:16):
a sporting nature. Yeah, yeah, so what does that mean? Right?
I we got to figure out what vehicles of a
sporting nature means and how do they do this? So
this is what's funny, and this is why you should
look this up, because there is a there's a formula
and you can look at this format and it's a
confusing forum. It's a math formula and there's no way
I'm going to even be able to describe what this
formula looks like. But it's a very short formula. It's
(37:38):
like W over P. The square root of three over
s divided by four c C s A is less
than seventeen. That's the way. That's the way they determine this.
Now what all that means and you'll have to again
look at this all bit. But the the variables the parameters. Here,
W is the way to the car, and kilograms P
is the power of the engine, which is described as
(38:00):
d I N horse power, which is kind of like
um metric course power really measured at the output shaft.
S is the number of seats in the vehicle, and
c C is the engine capacity in leaders Now, all
that has to be less than seventeen and then that
means that the vehicles a of a sporting nature. If
the number that you you get from that formula is
(38:20):
less than seventeen. So and this is a little bit
weird because there's some history behind it, this formula. They
didn't necessarily make it up. It dates all the way
back to the seventies, that's right, Yeah, so it came
from somewhere. So a Formula one driver, I believe a
Belgian Formula one driver created this formula to determine, you know,
which vehicles should be considered sports cars on the road.
(38:42):
And that's the old way of doing things that they
are trying to this this paper, this uh, this this
scholarly um academic writing is trying to find a new
way to measure the vehicles that are in Belgium. So uh,
clearly they have a huge problem with the cars that
are in Belgium, right right. The point it out to
the that there were a couple of readily apparent flaws
(39:05):
in the formula. The it's very sensitive to the number
of seats, which we have talked about. It doesn't take
into account some of the technical innovations right from because
it's from the seventies. Uh. And my favorite of of
their big criticisms are, quote, the use of third and
(39:26):
fourth roots has no physical justification, which which sounds like
I could see these two guys racking their brains and going,
why why do you have these roots on here? Yeah,
it seems kind of silly, but but honestly, I mean
when you look at the parameters that they're using, it's
not so bad really. When they look at weight, they
look at power, they look at the number of seats,
the the entry capacity. It kind of fits enter ties
(39:49):
into the classic definition of a sports car. So they're
trying to find a way to um determine which what
so that they can add and get this on top
of basic premium costs, uh to individuals that own vehicles
that that fit the sporting nature I guess. And by
the way, that does not apply to other vehicles. No,
And there's a huge list now. They they do have
(40:11):
all five dred and eighty one charted out here, and
there's lots of charts and graphs and it will make
you go across side looking at it. What they did however,
in this study, So if you do open it, you'll
find that you can look at about one hundred you
can look at about one hundred examples from their six
hundred and look at the cars that they determine as
sporty versus not sporty, and just I don't know if
(40:31):
we can even give a few examples here because they
broke it down really really far into uh ten different No,
there's twelve different UM categories in this in this uh
this chart, this this UM this big matrix that they
created of of sports cars versus normal cars and strange,
I mean, like some of the Fiat cars that we
(40:53):
would consider probably as sporty or even sports cars qualify
as normal vehicles under this, and then other cars that
you would think of is not necessarily a sports car,
UH do qualify sports cars like, um, there's a there's
a Ford Fiesta that's on there as a sports car,
but it's the XR two model, so maybe that's what
makes the difference. There's, um, let's see Volkswagen Sharaco. The
(41:14):
standard Sharaco doesn't come up as a sports car. However,
the G T, g T and g T X models
do come up as a sports car. UM. It's just
a fascinating list to look at, and really it's it's
quickly you can quickly go through it because the final
column here, the twelfth column is the one that they
denotes that either they get a zero or one. One.
One is a sports car. Zero is just a normal car,
(41:36):
average car. Yeah, and uh, it is strange when you
see that Fiesta. And it's also it's based on the
best quantitative analysis they could do, and they they messed
around with the formula a little bit to to try
to improve on it. Right, So they put in um,
they put in measurements for maximum torque that's big one,
(42:01):
maximum engine speed rpm. Uh. And even just adding those
two I think gives us a more sophisticated understanding of it. Yeah.
But I gotta tell you, man, I was amazed when
you when you showed this to me. There really is
an academic paper for everything. Yeah, and take a look
at it. I mean, just even if you just quickly
scroll through this paper, it's it's worth a look and
(42:23):
roth three just to just to see what it's all about.
It's kind of funny in some ways. Other ways you're thinking, like, well,
this is all about how how to really charge more
money for certain for certain drivers on the road. And uh,
I guess a lot of people were probably pretty irked
at that when they got nicked with an extra on
their premium. Look at and and also you know, if
you make a claim. Uh. They were saying that, you know,
(42:45):
the claims for these sports cross is often a lot higher.
So there's there's a lot of justification for why they're
doing this. Uh. But then again there's also a lot
of reasons why they maybe just shouldn't mess with it.
Maybe they should just you know, leave it alone. And
this is a tip for the Belgians in the audience.
You check out this paper before. Yeah, that's right. Yeah,
I mean, well it's an older list of course, so
(43:06):
I don't know how much of this really pertains because
I mean they've got like the burtony X one nine model, um,
you know, the Sobs, Sonnets and things like that on
the list. You know that aren't around anymore. So my
needs are right to the to the ducks and see
if we can get a an updated list. Yeah yeah, maybe,
I mean, but it's an interest. It's it's kind of
(43:26):
interesting to look through. Okay. The Lamborghini Countash is on
this list, so that gives you an idea of how
old it is, right all right, So and clearly that's
a sports car, but the Maserati Quad Report is not
a sports car. Um. Just it's fun to look at
that and to see, you know what, what's there? And
I'm sure that you can find the full six D
somewhere and if it matches, what what you if the
cars you think are or sports cars are you know,
(43:49):
jibing with this? Yeah, well that's the thing like that,
everybody's gonna read this a slightly different way. They're gonna
look at it and they're gonna raise their eyebrows like, what,
that's not a sports car and the other ones they're
gonna say kind of scrunch their their brow and say,
I don't think so, I don't think that one qualifies.
And then go take a look at the photo of
it and it's like, now, that's not a sports car,
but but it meets the criteria based on the new
formula that they've created. So they've got it. They've got
(44:11):
a new formula. There's a method to the man. So
that formula that I mentioned earlier has been changed, has
been adapted tools with a lot more variables, not well,
a few more variables, I guess, yeah, but just a
further way to break things down in a lot of ways. Yeah,
And and this is this is I've read that however
you want. This was our best. Uh, this was our
(44:33):
best find for a quantitative measurement or definition of a
sports car that wasn't just a matter of perspective. Yeah,
it seems like mostly it's just should be like a
seat of the pants thing. I means, just how you
feel about your vehicle or how does it drive. Yeah,
I mean you may may drive something that has you know,
two more seats behind you, has a four cylinder engine,
(44:56):
but man, is that thing fun to drive? And to
you that's a sports car? I say, that's perfectly fine
if you if you feel like your car is a
sports car? Why not? Why not? I mean it won't
maybe it isn't classified as that, but maybe that's good,
maybe not being texts can believe in Belgium. In Belgium, well,
and you know here we've got things like there's gas
(45:16):
guttl or taxes and things like that for some of
these vehicles that we are talking about. Our insurance rates Yeah,
well yeah, sure, higher insurance rates and that. And you
know they're looking at stuff like this, you know, what
what is considered, what classifications so um, in a way,
it's very similar here in the States, and I'm sure
that elsewhere around the world. It's similar as well. We
just we're not picking on Belgium by any means, but
(45:37):
for them to have this academic paper that that that
clearly defines all this and points it out, I mean
it's interesting. That's where that's where it comes in. Man,
it all comes down to the brass text of all
comes down to money. Yeah, yeah, it's all dollars and cents,
and for some people with sports cars, it all comes
down to speed and handling for the practical rather than
(45:58):
the aesthetic applications. We want to know what you think,
Ladies and gentlemen. Check us out on Facebook and Twitter.
We're car Stuff HSW. We would love to We would
love to see your opinion of what is and is
not a sports car. I think we're gonna get a
lot more people saying that is not a sports car?
(46:18):
Can I mentioned? Is one more quick thing? Yeah? What's
funny to me when I looked at a lot of
lists of what people considered to be sports cars and
what other people, you know, would are you against in
the the formable or the you know the comments below.
Some people would look at that list and say, are
you kidding me? You didn't even include a single lotus
vehicle in this whole list, and what is a sports car?
Almost everything that they make is the sports What about
(46:40):
Panas the cars we just talked that whole Panas operation
that's here in Georgia. They only make sports cars and
track day cars. Um, you'll find that they're glaring emissions
on some some lists and others. They're gonna have editions
that you don't think should be there, strange lists. I mean,
you're gonna find a ton of them. How would you
(47:00):
list every sports car? Though? You just can't rule you
can't because I think I read somewhere that the first
sports cars go back to nineteen ten, which is prior
to the first use of the word sports car in
popular media, which is like in the nineteen it was
nineteen nine, think it was nineteen twenty, let me say
it's it's it's it's the late nineteen twenties. But sports
(47:22):
cars clearly had been around for two decades before that,
because they're racing on you know, on tracks like Indianapolis,
they're racing all over the world. Really, there's sports cars.
There's sports cars out there, but they just didn't know
what to call them until the late nineteen twenties and
they when put the term on it. Yeah, yes, absolutely so.
We we want to hear what you think should and
(47:43):
shouldn't be on these lists. This is the time to
let us know your pet peeves and your favorites, the
ones you're the super fan of. You can check out
all the other podcasts that we had mentioned on our
website car Stuff Show dot com. That's where you can
hear about the panas, so you can hear about the
luxury car stuff we mentioned. Uh, that's well, you know,
(48:04):
it's all there about muscle car definitions. You know, strict
strict muscle car definition. From what it was the name
of that site, it was a funny site, Muscle Car
Club dot com. You've got strict definitions for all this.
They were not pulling punching. They only list one car
is a sports car. It was a Corvette. Yes, um.
And you're gonna find stuff like this all over the place,
(48:25):
and it's it's really fun to dig into, really mean
more than you would think. I think it's if you
think it's gonna be a great time, you're exactly right.
I think it's it's fascinating and I always appreciate hearing
someone make a case for or against something in a
way that I did not expect. And if you have
a case you like to make four or against something
(48:45):
considered a sports car or just considered sporting, I'd like
to read that too. So go ahead and polip a computer,
not if you're driving, polp a pull up your email
or something and send Scott noll and I a letter.
You can tell us your opinion on what makes a
sports car sports car or muscle cars after you listen
(49:06):
to that episode, of course, or if you have a
suggestion or something we should cover in the future, we'd
love to hear that too. You can emails directly at
car stuff at how stuff works dot com. So more
on this and thousands of other topics is how stuff
works dot com. Let us know what you think, send
an email to podcast at how stuff works dot com.
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