September 22, 2025 • 39 mins
James sits down with Frances to hear firsthand what it is like for families of people in the asylum system right now and how even U.S. citizens can have their families torn apart by the Trump administration’s anti-asylum policies.
Sources:
https://x.com/ConsulMexCho/status/1966636249910738951
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/09/12/dhs-statement-ice-officer-seriously-injured-line-duty-and-shooting-chicago-during
https://unraveledpress.com/what-happened-to-silverio-villegas-gonzalez/
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.284773/gov.uscourts.dcd.284773.37.0_2.pdf
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.284773/gov.uscourts.dcd.284773.41.0.pdf
https://calmatters.org/inside-the-newsroom/2025/04/calmatters-partners-with-evident-media-on-a-documentary-exposing-truth-behind-border-patrol-raid/
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/09/16/us/tyler-robinson-charges.html
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/exclusive-leaked-messages-from-charlie
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/17/business/media/abc-jimmy-kimmel.html
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, everyone, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's me James today and I'm very fortunate to be
joined by Francis, whose husband Amos is facing a date
in immigration court this week. We wanted to bring you
a first time perspective of what it's like going through
immigration court right now.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So Francis, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, of course, we're very glad you're here. So to
start with, like, would you like to explain your families
and it's a lengthy topic, your family's immigration story.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, I met my husband Amos in Hollywood. We were
both living in Hollywood and we dated a couple of
years there and then ended up moving to his home
country of Tunisia because he had a big family there
and I don't have much family here and we wanted
to have children. It's much better cost of living there,
and at the time the government there was doing pretty well.
(01:03):
There had been an Arab spring, which my husband was
very much involved with on this over here in the States,
like helping with that, and so he's an activist, and
at the time the government there was pretty good. So
we lived there for eight years, had our children there,
and a new presidency came in while we were living there,
(01:24):
the current president Caius Sayid, and things started to change.
So my husband was doing a lot of organizing grassroots
movement through local farmers unions and monitoring elections and doing
democracy activities for anti corruption and he's really an activist
for free speech and things like that. So he started
(01:48):
getting harassed. He was arrested, he was beaten up by
the police and things like that. So it started getting
very uncomfortable. Also, I was getting harassed. I would get
pulled over a lot by the police. They would impound
our car, they would take us out. Yeah, the police
there carry big guns, you know, as in most Arab countries,
(02:10):
and so it was very frightening for me. Yeah, they
carry big guns. They're either on their backs or even
in their hands, and they would have me and the
kids get out of the car, and it was very frightening. So, yeah,
the children and I, well, we were all planning on
coming back to the States. I hadn't been home in
a while, and so the children and I went ahead
(02:30):
and came, assuming that my husband would be able to
get a at least a visa to you know, see
us and while once we were here, he was not
able to get a visa. He tried and tried and tried,
and I was begging the embassy to allow him to
see us here, and they just would not. So we
(02:53):
were separated for nine months. So him being away from
our children, they were about four and six at the time,
or maybe five and seven. It was devastating for all
of us. So he ended up taking a very treacherous
journey across South America and made his way through many
countries and presented himself for asylum at the border because again,
(03:15):
we did not feel safe living in Tunia anymore. So
he presented himself for asylum at the border and they
allowed him into this country with a court date. And
at the time, Biden was president, So things are, you know,
have changed a lot since then. You know, the immigration
system is broken. Everybody knows that. It takes years and
(03:36):
years and years and tons and tons of money for
an immigrant to you know, go through the process. You
know people who say, oh, just do it the right way.
It's not that simple. It takes a lot of money
and a lot of time, and it's very complicated. And
when you're fleeing a country or a situation where you're
in danger, there is no other option, you know, there's
(03:59):
nowhere to go back, right, So that's what we're kind
of facing now. So he had a court date. We've
had five master hearings, and we've gone through a few
different lawyers because we have found, for one thing, it's
extremely difficult to find a lawyer these days because they're
very overbooked. Most of them are not taking new cases.
(04:21):
People tell us, oh, just get a pro bono lawyer.
It is almost impossible to get a pro bono lawyer anymore.
And you know who has thousands and thousands of extra
dollars to pay for legal help with the situation. We
do have a lawyer now thanks to some fundraising that
we've done. So since he's been here, we've had to
(04:42):
check in at the ICE office like it was on
sort of a basis of after you have a court
hearing the next day or within a couple of days,
you must go check in it ICE. And it's been
very fine, like the there's a very nice officer there
who knows us and helped tries to he answer our questions.
So it was pretty calm when Biden was president, and
(05:04):
then now that Trump's administration has taken over. We knew
that there would be a lot of changes and we
were very frightened. So we went for a hearing earlier
this year. You know, we're just a lot more nervous.
And the hearing went fine, just kind of as normal.
We went to the ICE check in. I think our
guard was kind of down because we thought, since the
(05:25):
hearing went fine, this will go fine. Yeah, and the
nice officer told us, you know, well this is going
to sound a little scary, but we need you to
go check in at a different place this time. And
so they sent us to a company called ice App.
They own, i think migrant detention centers. So we went
to this place and he was there the whole day.
They were interviewing him. They put an app in his
(05:48):
phone so that now he has to do these weekly
check ins where his phone makes this loud alarm sound.
He must stop everything and take a picture of himself.
There's a monthly home visit where they come to our
house and take his picture and ask him questions. There's
we have to go check in at their office, and
(06:08):
also he does virtual check in. So it's just a
lot more and everything was kind of going as planned.
We are last hearing in July that was really stressful
because we didn't have a lawyer leading up to it,
and at the last second we were able to get
a lawyer. And the reason it's so important to have
a lawyer is because if you don't, you must appear
(06:30):
in person, and that's very stressful and frightening. Again, we
have small children. We don't even do babysitters, like, we're
always just together. We're a very tight family unit, and
so we go to these things together. And we really
wanted this last one in July to be virtual because
if it's virtual, you know, it's just feels a lot safer.
We're in the comfort of our own home and we've
(06:52):
been hearing in the news, you know, how they're picking
up people outside of their court hearings. So we got
the attorney, we got a virtual here. It was a
very short hearing. It was great because she just gave
us the next hearing date was September of twenty twenty eight,
and the judge said, Okay, see you in twenty twenty eight,
(07:12):
and we breathed a sigh of relief, crossed our fingers,
did our necessary check ins, and we were just you know,
hoping that everything would be fine. Ye, well, just here
at the end of August, beginning of September, we get
out of the blue a new notice. It was very
interesting too, because this iceapp company calls us and says,
(07:32):
good news, We're gonna lessen the amount of check ins
you have to do. It's going to be a lot
less now. So, you know, it was interesting because she's like,
this is great news for you, so like once a month,
you'll still do the weekly ones and then it's just
going to be once.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
A month, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
But then she says, and then we'll see you after
your hearing in September, meaning this September. And we thought
it was a mistake because we knew we had one
in twenty twenty eight. Yeah, like, no, no, you got
a new hearing notice. So that's how we found out.
They didn't send it to us. Even our lawyer didn't know.
So we find out that we have a new hearing
out of the blue. There was a mix up about
(08:08):
the dates, but anyway, it was September eleventh or fifteenth,
and then our attorney asked for an extension and the
most they could give us was nine days. So now
our hearing is this coming Wednesday, September twenty fourth, and
on this has never happened before, but when again, when
you have an attorney, you can appear virtually, and on
(08:30):
this hearing notice it said that the attorney can appear virtually,
but the respondent must appear in person, and that is
highly unusual. It's in bold at the top. So our
attorney agrees with us that it's pretty clear the plan is.
What they've been doing now is when you go to court,
they drop your case. So now it's dismissed, and therefore
(08:53):
you are just here without due process. Now you don't
have a right to do process. It's done, so you're
just here legally, and then they're sometimes waiting for you
in the hallway or outside the building to take you
to iced attention. So obviously since we found this out,
I mean, we've just been sleepless nights, full panic mode
(09:14):
of figuring out like what to do, and then our
attorney doesn't even have answers for us. She does not
know what to do. She says, this is all new
to her, it's new to all the lawyers. She doesn't
even know what to do or who to ask. And
that's frightening, because that's why we have an attorney, you know,
We're hoping for some support or someone who's knowledgeable about
(09:36):
the law and what are our options, and it feels
like we don't have any. We feel extremely helpless, and
I've never thought I would see this in my country,
my quote unquote free country that I have lived in
most of my life and grew up in. Also, about
two weeks ago, they changed the law where now we
(09:58):
are not entitled to a bar, so if he is
taken into detention, we can't even get him out, because
that was the first thing we thought was, well, let's
just try to get some money together and we'll bail
him out. Yeah, that's not even an option anymore. So
again more fear. So we're dealing with all of this
and wondering what to do as far as you know. Again,
(10:21):
we have small children. They're now seven and nine years old.
We're extremely happy where we're living. We live in a
small community that does lean on the conservative side, so
we do feel a little uncomfortable with some of our
neighbors and their flags and everything. They're very bold, so
you know, and you can't hide being brown, so it's
awkward and then our children because of the way that
(10:44):
we left before. When we left Tunisia, it was pretty sudden.
We kind of took them out of school and just
came to America and left their dad behind. So they've
been in therapy ever since. They each have a weekly
therapist just to help with if they're you know, if
they're going to have any symptoms of trauma coming up
for them. And they're doing great. Actually, they're thriving here.
(11:07):
They are so happy. They are in the best school.
I actually work at their school, and my husband volunteers
at the school and he's been their soccer coach for
both of their teams, which is a lot to take on.
He also volunteers in our community at a ranch helping
with horses and at a facility for senior citizens. And
(11:28):
he does have a work permit. They granted him a
work permit, which took a long time to get.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That's good because that can take a long time.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
It took a long time, over a year, but he
does have it now. So we got excited because he
only got the work permit a couple months ago, so
we're very excited, you know, he can work and now
it's just out of the blue. Our world has turned
upside down where there's a strong potential that he will
(11:56):
be taken into ice custody and listen, I understand if
that's how they want to do things now, but if
it was like a safer situation where maybe they just.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
It's just there's so many unknowns about where are they
taking him. There's our lawyer does not think we will
be informed about where they take him. That's one thing
which means we probably won't be able to communicate with him.
We don't know how long he'll be there. They could
keep him there the entire three years until twenty twenty eight.
(12:31):
They might just want to keep him in detention and wait,
you know, for his next year. It doesn't make any
sense to me because that costs money, and he's a
tax payer. Wouldn't it pay more if he's home working.
By the way, yes, he has no criminal record whatsoever.
He has not broken any immigration laws, at least when
(12:52):
he came over the border. It was legal to present
yourself for asylum when you are coming from a country
like he was. Where he was you know, being harassed, detained,
and our entire family like we were being threatened and
feeling very unsafe there.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So, yeah, it's a textbook asylum place, right, like.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, we have a valid asylum claim. We've submitted hundreds
of documents of evidence to the court. You know, the
judge actually complimented us on how well we did because
at the time we didn't have an attorney. We were
just trying to do it on our own because we
couldn't afford an attorney. We were both college graduates, so
we put together a really organized, you know case, and
(13:34):
so I have filed to sponsor him as well. You know,
as my husband. We've been together twelve years, married ten
two kids, and they don't care about that. It does
not matter if he has an American family, it does
not matter. They are taking anybody. And that also is very,
very frustrating, and that's the reason that we should have
due process. They should be looking at every single case
(13:57):
individually and have a judge make a decision. That's the
whole point of it. Obviously, if we hadn't hindsight, if
we had known that this could have happened, we had
(14:20):
no idea that this could have happened in our country,
we would have started this sponsorship process a long time ago.
The reason we did and is because he was married
before and he went through this process with USCIS to
try to get sponsorship with his first wife, and it
was extremely complicated and frustrating and cost a lot of money,
and he went through a bunch of lawyers and he
(14:41):
was so traumatized by the experience that literally we had
big legal files in our house that I had to
hide because he couldn't even see them or he would
get triggered. So he didn't want to put me through that.
And we were living in Tunisia anyway, and so we
just figured we were just kind of kicking the can
down the road, thinking, oh, we'll deal with it at
some point. Unfortunately, we waited way too long and you know,
(15:03):
didn't start dealing with it until he got here. And
so USCIS, which is where we you know, file for
this sponsorship.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, you ask Customs Immigration Service people know familiar.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yes, thank you. After we filed that, they gave us
a time period on when we would get the decision.
It was fifteen months that we would have to wait.
And we've been checking the site, checking the site, checking
the site, has been counting down, counting down, and about
a month ago we were down.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
To a week, oh well, okay, that we would be.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Getting a decision, and after the week passed, it changed
the message on the app now or the website now
says and definitely you'll have to wait indefinitely for this decision.
So we've been trying to ask our lawyer please push
for this because if that gets you know, an answer,
that would be great. But the answer could be no
(15:53):
on that as well. They could just say no, come
on in and they can take him straight from there
as well. So the whole thing is so incredibly stressful
and frightening the fact that my government, I'm in America,
I'm an American citizen with two American kids, and my
government is threatening to tear our family apart and take
(16:15):
my husband away, the father of my children, and traumatize
my children again to have their dad not with us,
and lord knows where they're going to send him. It
is absolutely infuriating, and it feels like agony too, because
like every day I wake up and I'm counting down
the days to this hearing, and we have no idea
(16:36):
what's going to happen. Right, it feels very very threatening
to our safety and our livelihood, and that it's coming
from our government does not make me feel like this
is a great country to live in and I do
not feel safe living here.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
That's a lot too, yeah to have to put out there,
so thank you for sharing it. Yes, we should just
explain for people, like there's a lot of stuff that
maybe people who haven't been through the system might not
not grasp within that right, So what the government has
if I just break down, like the dismissal of cases,
as I understand that what the government has been doing
(17:16):
has been dismissing people's asylum case right, which they got
under Title eight when they entered and added by the administration,
and then placing them in expedited removal proceedings, which is
a mandatory detention as you said, right, it's not a
bailout situation, and then as you say, forcing them to
fight from detention, right, which in this case would obviously
stop your husband from working, stop your husband from paying taxes,
(17:39):
and instead make him a burden on the American taxpayer
while he's detained in conditions which could often be very poor.
In that situation, You're only sort of claim is a
credible fear of torture, right, which is something that in
your case, it sounds like would be very real. But nonetheless,
that is a very high bar, and we've seen the
United States do all kinds of things to get around that.
(18:02):
We've got on that all the time, so I can
understand that fear and where it comes from. I think
people will be shocked, but they perhaps shouldn't be to
hear that, Like, yes, you can be a US citizen
married to a non US citizen. This can still happen
to you. It can happen to anyone who is not
a citizen in this country right now. I wonder, like
(18:24):
it must have been pretty heartbreaking to see the election,
to see the rhetoric, Like how does that line up
with your lives in your community? Because I see this
often even from really conservative people, right, Like I know
people who voted for Trump who have also shown up
to cook for asylum seekers in the desert or to
(18:47):
help refugees living in our community. Like it's a very
strange thing. Have you felt alienated from your community since
the beginning of this year, because I'm interested in, like
how your lives have changed because of that change in rhetoric.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yes, Like I said, we have neighbors on our streets.
So there was a block party for Fourth of July,
which I didn't even feel like celebrating, but we had
just moved into this house, so we felt, you know,
like we should go at least meet the neighbors. And
there's a lot of Trump flags on our street, and
it was very awkward. But my husband is very charming
and charismatic and outgoing, and he just goes right up
(19:27):
and introduces himself. And there was one gentleman wearing a
T shirt that said they hate us because they ate us,
and it's got a big old, you know, Trump face
on it, and it was just so so awkward. So yeah,
we feel uncomfortable. Also, like I said, it's a leans
conservative in this community and our school. Even like, as
(19:47):
we're doing this fundraiser, we were very careful not to
share it with anyone that we live near, just in case,
you know, because we have been hearing reports of people
like neighbors calling ice on their neighbors to you report
them and you know, go pick up this person. You know,
he looks brown or I don't know what they're what
they're doing or their logic, but you know, yeah, it
(20:09):
feels very threatening and even Oh. My daughter even said, uh,
can't Data just cover up his skin? You know, like
she was just thinking like, yeah, was he gonna wear
her cup?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah? Right?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I mean, you can't really hide who you are, and
you shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
To, right, And it's very hard for the kids to
be saying that, yeah, the dad should be hiding.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And they've asked me, how can we make Trump just
forget about Data, you know, and I said, well, he
doesn't really know. They don't you know, he doesn't know
exactly your dad. He's just they're doing this to a
lot of people. You know. We just happened to be
in that group. But I will say we have some
some close friends that we really adore and they are Trumpers.
You know, we see it on their Facebook page, but
(20:55):
then when we're in their presence, they don't bring it up,
and it's just kind of an elephant room. And honestly,
as our core data is getting closer, we plan on
having them over to talk about it because it feels
very awkward. And I just think there's the kindest people.
They're extremely religious, which we are not when we're on
(21:16):
the spiritual side, but you know, I think they're just
they're just on a team. They've chosen a team, and
I don't think they're necessarily paying a lot of attention
to what's actually happening to people. So we're hoping that
just a conversation will just let them know. We want
to be honest with the people that are close to us,
and that mean a lot to us, you know, because
we don't know what's about to happen. And even there's
(21:39):
members of my family that I feel very awkward talking
to as well, where I'm kind of distanced myself because
people who are still supporting this regime at this point,
to me are too far gone to even kind of
get them to come around, I guess. I mean, I
just don't understand. I can't understand support of Trump from
(22:03):
the first place. So again, if people are still on
that boat, I really don't relate to them, and it's
very awkward. Especially Yeah, people in my family who supposedly
love me and my children, you know, are still supporting
that regime, and despite seeing all the things, maybe they
(22:24):
don't see it. I mean, I know they if they
are exclusively watching Fox News, then they are only receiving
that information, which is not telling the whole story, right,
And it's definitely completely skewed to make them look like
the good guys, and anyone on that's liberal is a
bad guy. And they're very much targeting you know, Democrats
(22:46):
now as the enemy, the enemy of the state. They
have even said. So it's I mean, it's so now
I'm starting to feel even nonsafe for myself because I'm
I'm not super active on Facebook, but I am outspoken
because I can't resist. I mean, there is freedom of
speech in this country, or at least there was, and
(23:06):
there should be. And it's hard to be quiet at
this time. And we would be a lot more outspoken
if we weren't feeling unsafe.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, but you have that fear, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yes, especially my husband because he's always been an activist
and a you know, fighter for free speech and equal rights,
and so it's that's one of the things that's really
crushing him and his soul and his spirit through all this,
is that he cannot even speak out. Yes, so you know,
for people like him. It's not even for himself, but
(23:39):
just for people like him. I know he wants to help,
you know, and it's really challenging.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I know, it's so sad to see the whole point
of the asylum system, and like at least the sort
of stated purpose of American foreign policy, it's sort of
spread democracy throughout the world, and a lot of people
have stood up for democracy and been persecuted to come
here and be safe. Evidently the United States doesn't even
believe it's saying that anymore, in so much as it
(24:06):
said it didn't always do it in the past. Yeah,
it is really sad to think that, like even that
it's gone. Yeah, for so many people. I think the
idea of migrants is like an abstract one right for
your Fox News viewer. Migrants are just like an abstract
brown skin bad person. And I often think that if
those people had known migrants in their community, they would
(24:26):
either not vote that way or they would at least
not like that policy. There are other things they liked
about Trump, which it go. That's not something I can
I can find much understanding of. And those people do exist,
but it's just so sad to see like people turned
against anyone who wasn't born in this country. Yeah, it's
simply because they were, not because of any other character trait.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
They have, particularly the brown skin though, because you have
to admit the Canadians there. I mean, even though there's
been a little tension with the Canadians at first in
this regime, you know, pretty much under the radar, and
anyone from Europe or anyone. He's even said like send
a Nordic people, that's fine, you know, I mean, he's
he's very clear, right, Yeah, the Africans refugees are welcome.
(25:11):
Come on. It's just so blatant, you know. And and
I remember when I was growing up, my mom in particular,
would would complain when when we started to have to
press one for English. I remember my mom complaining about
that or thinking, you know, you know, if you're here,
you should learn the language. Well, I got to say,
I lived in Tunisia for eight years and I did
(25:34):
not learn the language. I tried to teach myself. It's
a dialect that you know, at the time, they didn't
have lessons that you could get on YouTube or duo
lingo or anything. You know. If I learned French and Arabic,
maybe I could piece something together. But I you know,
it's not as easy as people say.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And yeah, yeah, And then just.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
To speak of my mother, I guess she prides her
self on making friends with people at the grocery store
who are of another ethnicity, or like really you know,
getting to know a doctor, or she has a housekeeper
who's been working for her for like thirty years, and
so I know she doesn't think of that person as
(26:18):
being someone that shouldn't be here, right, So you know,
so I think even if you do know a family
or two who's who's an immigrant, you might think, oh, well,
not them, I don't mean them, I mean also other ones.
I mean all the bad guys.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, the bad ones.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, and if Trump was serious about getting the bad
ones go to the gang neighborhoods, Like we do know
where the dangerous gang neighborhoods are, but they're not sending
the tanks there. They're sending them to MacArthur Park, you know,
home depot. It's like, if you want to get the gangs,
get the gangs. But I think they're too scared of
(26:54):
that because these are really just regular people that they're
hiring to do this work for them to people, and
that's why they're hiding their faces, because they are regular
people who would like to probably have a normal life
outside of this new job that they've been so well
paid for.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Right, Yeah, and certainly they're they're recruiting a lot more
people to do that right now, which is can I
only see a step up in enforcement?
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I wonder like in so much anything has helped because
people will want to help, right Like, I think people
will listen, they will understand a situation, they will see
the possibility of your family being torn apart and want
to help. But it's hard to help right now, right
unless you're an immigration lawyer. And every pro bono immigration
lawyer I know is mental health damaging levels of overworked
(27:50):
and stressed and traumatized. I think, So what can people do,
either for you or in their communities to show up
for people who are in your situation?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I would say donate. You could donate to the ACL,
you donate to individual families like ours. I'm sure. I
think there's a lot of gofundmes out there that people
are trying to raise money for. That's the way, you know,
everything is kind of done these days when people are
desperate and speak out, And I think the most important
thing is have conversations and get to know people and
(28:23):
even like, yeah, sometimes I see you know, a Hispanic
person in a grocery store. I just wanted to tell them,
thank you for being here. I'm glad you're here, because
I think they must be feeling so scared right now
and so unwanted and so unappreciated when they are doing
some of the hardest jobs that nobody else wants to
do for very little money. Yeah, these are essential workers.
(28:47):
They should be paid the most. Everything is backwards, you know.
The people who are doing the hardest, you know, cleaning
the toilets and picking the fields, they should be paid
the most. It doesn't make any sense. Regardless of where
they're from, they're willing to do the work, and Lord
knows their background of where they came from and how
the struggles that they've been through to leave their home country.
(29:09):
Nobody wants to leave their home country. You do that
because it's so bad that you must, you know, especially
if you have children. You're trying to make a better
life for yourself. And we've been sold on this American
dream prospect. You know that we've heard our whole lives
and the whole world has heard about So they come
and now we're just punishing them brutally. It's not even like,
(29:32):
oh no, sorry, we're full, you know, we're gonna have
to send you back. It's like, no, we're gonna punish you.
We're gonna treat you like dogs, call you animals and
vermin and call you horrible things. Yeah, send you to
places where you're unsafe and untaken care of, and maybe,
if you're lucky, you'll get sent back to your home country,
or you'll get sent to a random country or even
(29:53):
a prison, like a horrible prison in another country where
who knows what's It's just this is what frightens me. Yea,
you know again, if he was sent to somewhere, to
a place where I could you know, we could have
visits or calls or you know, and he waits it out,
I guess that would be more tolerable than the unknown
of his safety. He's not going to be well taken
(30:16):
care of. That's a fact. They don't care about these people.
And my husband, unfortunately, he's always been extremely strong, extremely brave,
a fighter, and I feel like his fight is gone.
He's physically and mentally at the end of his rope.
And I'm extremely frightened. I mean, he just feels like
(30:36):
he's tired of fighting. He's just exhausted from this, you
know again, I mean, we've been together twelve years. And
again he was going through this process with his first
wife who he was with for eight years, and he
never got an answer. He was never denied, but he
just never got an answer, and that was enough for
them for our case, just to you know, it's going
(30:56):
to be really, really difficult to get a yes for
a green card.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it still happens. I've heard of
it happening even in the last few months, but it
is increasingly harder and less common, and that is brutal.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And the way, of course, as you're saying, system is
designed to make you feel hopeless and just to as
they call it self, deport.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yes, And even our lawyer doesn't know what to do.
And I feel the judge seems like a nice person,
and I would imagine it must be very frustrating too
to be a judge at this time where they have
to be the ones that are just kind of their
hands are tied. They will lose their job if they
don't do what the regime wants them to do. So
(31:43):
you know, this is what happens in third world countries.
This is why America has been great, because we weren't
like this before with US, you know, cutting out free
speech and things like that. It's changing rapidly and if
people don't stand up more, and I'm sorry, but it's
going to have to take more than these peaceful protests. Unfortunately,
(32:06):
because they're not doing anything. We are being laughed at
by the Maga Republicans. They do not care about our
peaceful protests. They're just like, Okay, there's a protest on
this day. Next day, They're just going to keep doing
it harder, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Sure, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Not changing anything, so something has to change. I'm hoping
more celebrities come out and start speaking up. I think
that would help because people tend to back the celebrities
that they love, and I'm kind of alarmed that more
people like especially the most powerful celebrities like Oprah for example,
why aren't they out there every day, yeah, you know,
(32:42):
saying this is what I support and this is what
I don't support. I think they're scared, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I would imagine, so what a sad thought.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I do think that the Maga Republicans are outnumbered, and
I think that they're continuously going to be outnumbered as
things get more and more you know, shocking as we're
seeing our freedoms being stripped, the constitutional freedoms that we've
always known being stripped. I think it's going to get worse,
and I don't know how about it has to get
(33:12):
before change happens.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I don't think any of us do. I do
think you're right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
The more and more people are not happy with HAWS
is happening, But there doesn't even seem to be a
well among Democrats to oppose this in a meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, she's very.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Sad and like, yeah, even the Democrats in power don't
know what to do.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I mean, yeah, and they seem to think that it's
electoral suicide just to be basically decent and say, we
need to be decent people and kind to people who
come here asking us to help them. And there seems
to be something that is just inadmissible in electoral politics,
which is really sad.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, so you guys have your court date. We will
obviously continue covering this.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
We get We're going to continue updating people.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
We will continue talking about this and covering this, and yeah,
we'll try and get an update out. This is coming out.
You'll be hearing this on Monday, and we will try
and get an update out within a week or so,
just to let everyone know how things have gone and
what they can do to help. Is there anything else
you'd like to say to people before we go?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah, So, as we found out, you know that there's
a good possibility that he will be taken into iced
attention on Wednesday. We ask our lawyer, Okay, so what
are the next steps if that happens? What you know,
he has a constitutional right to do process of law
habeas corpus and she doesn't know what to do. She's
never done it before. So therefore we need to find
(34:38):
a different lawyer that can help us with that. It's
not in immigration court, it's federal court. So we have inquiries.
We actually have a consult today with someone who maybe
help us with that. We sent emails out last night
kind of telling our story to another lawyer, hoping that
we can get some support and on that front, because
basically that's your next step. You're in detention. You raise
(35:02):
your constitutional rights of due process of law, you know,
but then again it's another fight and again it could
be from detention, which is yeah, more money, I'm going
to be at that point, a single mother, you know,
trying to support bills here in California, which is already
you know, difficult, and you know, on my own, and
(35:25):
also paying lawyers and trying to fight to either find
my husband or get him out of there. You know,
we don't want to be the country if we if
we don't have to. We we love it here. I
don't know where else to go. We can't go to Tunisia.
I'm American. Where are we supposed to go? Yeah? And
that's what people don't understand too with immigrants. You know,
(35:48):
if they can't return to their home country because of
safety reasons, which is most of the cases, that's why
we have the silent cases, then what are they supposed
to do? You know?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
And I don't think a lot of people seem to care, right,
They think people just want people to go away.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Somewhere, go figure it out.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, it's not our problem.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, which in this case it very much is
and in every case, and like it is our problem
that we should take responsibility for one another as well.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Being right, Yes, as humans should care about each other.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, just have empathy at least that's the least we
could do.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, A society that says it's not my problem, it's
not one that any of us should want to live in.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, And in our case, my husband's particularly worried because
if he does get sent back to Tunisia, most definitely
he would be in jail there as well, which is
also not a pleasant experience.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yet to put it mildly, and it would be.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, where they torture people in jail. So yeah, again,
we don't really know what to do or where to go.
But these are the thoughts that we're having.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, they're not unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, if we do self deport, when do we, Like,
we're trying to push it as long as we can
stay stayed day, stay, stay, stay, stay, you know, and
then when do we let them know? Okay, okay, I
guess we'll self deport, like at the last second before
they take them into detend, like, you know, I don't
know the safe way to do that, right, And then
if we do, can they give us time to get
(37:15):
our affairs in order, Like leaving the country is no
small task and we don't even have money to do that.
So you know, these are our options, These are literally
our options. And again, small children second grade, fourth grade,
you know, and they're thriving here like they don't deserve this.
And my husband even said, you know, he said this
(37:35):
the other day, like our children don't deserve this, and
I said, no, children deserve the horrors of this planet.
You know that. I mean, we're we're actually a lot
luckier than a lot of other children. So but at
the same time, there are children, and this is the
problem that we're dealing with, and unfortunately they have to
deal with it too. You know, that's just what a
(37:56):
family is. Yea. Our goal is to stay together no
matter matter what. We want to keep my husband safe,
and we want to keep us together. That's our number
one call. So unfortunately that may mean that we need
to leave. And I will be very, very sad if
that's the case, because I have always loved this country.
(38:17):
It's always stood for greatness, and ironically, the group that
thinks they're going to make America great again is failing miserably.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's incredibly sad. And like you said,
you've already up and left your children want, yes to
come to a safe place, to be safe, and then
to have to do it again from that safe place,
I'm sure we'll be and the order to get more
than they realize what's happening.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Yeah, it's only two years later, you know, the poor kids.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah exactly. Who. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
This sucks. We'll all be thinking of you.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
And yeah, if you're listening, I will. I will try
and keep you updated over the next few weeks.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
James, all right, thank you, thank you for your time.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production
of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could
Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Thanks for listening.
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hi, everyone, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's me James today and I'm very fortunate to be
joined by Francis, whose husband Amos is facing a date
in immigration court this week. We wanted to bring you
a first time perspective of what it's like going through
immigration court right now.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So Francis, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, of course, we're very glad you're here. So to
start with, like, would you like to explain your families
and it's a lengthy topic, your family's immigration story.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, I met my husband Amos in Hollywood. We were
both living in Hollywood and we dated a couple of
years there and then ended up moving to his home
country of Tunisia because he had a big family there
and I don't have much family here and we wanted
to have children. It's much better cost of living there,
and at the time the government there was doing pretty well.
(01:03):
There had been an Arab spring, which my husband was
very much involved with on this over here in the States,
like helping with that, and so he's an activist, and
at the time the government there was pretty good. So
we lived there for eight years, had our children there,
and a new presidency came in while we were living there,
(01:24):
the current president Caius Sayid, and things started to change.
So my husband was doing a lot of organizing grassroots
movement through local farmers unions and monitoring elections and doing
democracy activities for anti corruption and he's really an activist
for free speech and things like that. So he started
(01:48):
getting harassed. He was arrested, he was beaten up by
the police and things like that. So it started getting
very uncomfortable. Also, I was getting harassed. I would get
pulled over a lot by the police. They would impound
our car, they would take us out. Yeah, the police
there carry big guns, you know, as in most Arab countries,
(02:10):
and so it was very frightening for me. Yeah, they
carry big guns. They're either on their backs or even
in their hands, and they would have me and the
kids get out of the car, and it was very frightening. So, yeah,
the children and I, well, we were all planning on
coming back to the States. I hadn't been home in
a while, and so the children and I went ahead
(02:30):
and came, assuming that my husband would be able to
get a at least a visa to you know, see
us and while once we were here, he was not
able to get a visa. He tried and tried and tried,
and I was begging the embassy to allow him to
see us here, and they just would not. So we
(02:53):
were separated for nine months. So him being away from
our children, they were about four and six at the time,
or maybe five and seven. It was devastating for all
of us. So he ended up taking a very treacherous
journey across South America and made his way through many
countries and presented himself for asylum at the border because again,
(03:15):
we did not feel safe living in Tunia anymore. So
he presented himself for asylum at the border and they
allowed him into this country with a court date. And
at the time, Biden was president, So things are, you know,
have changed a lot since then. You know, the immigration
system is broken. Everybody knows that. It takes years and
(03:36):
years and years and tons and tons of money for
an immigrant to you know, go through the process. You
know people who say, oh, just do it the right way.
It's not that simple. It takes a lot of money
and a lot of time, and it's very complicated. And
when you're fleeing a country or a situation where you're
in danger, there is no other option, you know, there's
(03:59):
nowhere to go back, right, So that's what we're kind
of facing now. So he had a court date. We've
had five master hearings, and we've gone through a few
different lawyers because we have found, for one thing, it's
extremely difficult to find a lawyer these days because they're
very overbooked. Most of them are not taking new cases.
(04:21):
People tell us, oh, just get a pro bono lawyer.
It is almost impossible to get a pro bono lawyer anymore.
And you know who has thousands and thousands of extra
dollars to pay for legal help with the situation. We
do have a lawyer now thanks to some fundraising that
we've done. So since he's been here, we've had to
(04:42):
check in at the ICE office like it was on
sort of a basis of after you have a court
hearing the next day or within a couple of days,
you must go check in it ICE. And it's been
very fine, like the there's a very nice officer there
who knows us and helped tries to he answer our questions.
So it was pretty calm when Biden was president, and
(05:04):
then now that Trump's administration has taken over. We knew
that there would be a lot of changes and we
were very frightened. So we went for a hearing earlier
this year. You know, we're just a lot more nervous.
And the hearing went fine, just kind of as normal.
We went to the ICE check in. I think our
guard was kind of down because we thought, since the
(05:25):
hearing went fine, this will go fine. Yeah, and the
nice officer told us, you know, well this is going
to sound a little scary, but we need you to
go check in at a different place this time. And
so they sent us to a company called ice App.
They own, i think migrant detention centers. So we went
to this place and he was there the whole day.
They were interviewing him. They put an app in his
(05:48):
phone so that now he has to do these weekly
check ins where his phone makes this loud alarm sound.
He must stop everything and take a picture of himself.
There's a monthly home visit where they come to our
house and take his picture and ask him questions. There's
we have to go check in at their office, and
(06:08):
also he does virtual check in. So it's just a
lot more and everything was kind of going as planned.
We are last hearing in July that was really stressful
because we didn't have a lawyer leading up to it,
and at the last second we were able to get
a lawyer. And the reason it's so important to have
a lawyer is because if you don't, you must appear
(06:30):
in person, and that's very stressful and frightening. Again, we
have small children. We don't even do babysitters, like, we're
always just together. We're a very tight family unit, and
so we go to these things together. And we really
wanted this last one in July to be virtual because
if it's virtual, you know, it's just feels a lot safer.
We're in the comfort of our own home and we've
(06:52):
been hearing in the news, you know, how they're picking
up people outside of their court hearings. So we got
the attorney, we got a virtual here. It was a
very short hearing. It was great because she just gave
us the next hearing date was September of twenty twenty eight,
and the judge said, Okay, see you in twenty twenty eight,
(07:12):
and we breathed a sigh of relief, crossed our fingers,
did our necessary check ins, and we were just you know,
hoping that everything would be fine. Ye, well, just here
at the end of August, beginning of September, we get
out of the blue a new notice. It was very
interesting too, because this iceapp company calls us and says,
(07:32):
good news, We're gonna lessen the amount of check ins
you have to do. It's going to be a lot
less now. So, you know, it was interesting because she's like,
this is great news for you, so like once a month,
you'll still do the weekly ones and then it's just
going to be once.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
A month, okay.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
But then she says, and then we'll see you after
your hearing in September, meaning this September. And we thought
it was a mistake because we knew we had one
in twenty twenty eight. Yeah, like, no, no, you got
a new hearing notice. So that's how we found out.
They didn't send it to us. Even our lawyer didn't know.
So we find out that we have a new hearing
out of the blue. There was a mix up about
(08:08):
the dates, but anyway, it was September eleventh or fifteenth,
and then our attorney asked for an extension and the
most they could give us was nine days. So now
our hearing is this coming Wednesday, September twenty fourth, and
on this has never happened before, but when again, when
you have an attorney, you can appear virtually, and on
(08:30):
this hearing notice it said that the attorney can appear virtually,
but the respondent must appear in person, and that is
highly unusual. It's in bold at the top. So our
attorney agrees with us that it's pretty clear the plan is.
What they've been doing now is when you go to court,
they drop your case. So now it's dismissed, and therefore
(08:53):
you are just here without due process. Now you don't
have a right to do process. It's done, so you're
just here legally, and then they're sometimes waiting for you
in the hallway or outside the building to take you
to iced attention. So obviously since we found this out,
I mean, we've just been sleepless nights, full panic mode
(09:14):
of figuring out like what to do, and then our
attorney doesn't even have answers for us. She does not
know what to do. She says, this is all new
to her, it's new to all the lawyers. She doesn't
even know what to do or who to ask. And
that's frightening, because that's why we have an attorney, you know,
We're hoping for some support or someone who's knowledgeable about
(09:36):
the law and what are our options, and it feels
like we don't have any. We feel extremely helpless, and
I've never thought I would see this in my country,
my quote unquote free country that I have lived in
most of my life and grew up in. Also, about
two weeks ago, they changed the law where now we
(09:58):
are not entitled to a bar, so if he is
taken into detention, we can't even get him out, because
that was the first thing we thought was, well, let's
just try to get some money together and we'll bail
him out. Yeah, that's not even an option anymore. So
again more fear. So we're dealing with all of this
and wondering what to do as far as you know. Again,
(10:21):
we have small children. They're now seven and nine years old.
We're extremely happy where we're living. We live in a
small community that does lean on the conservative side, so
we do feel a little uncomfortable with some of our
neighbors and their flags and everything. They're very bold, so
you know, and you can't hide being brown, so it's
awkward and then our children because of the way that
(10:44):
we left before. When we left Tunisia, it was pretty sudden.
We kind of took them out of school and just
came to America and left their dad behind. So they've
been in therapy ever since. They each have a weekly
therapist just to help with if they're you know, if
they're going to have any symptoms of trauma coming up
for them. And they're doing great. Actually, they're thriving here.
(11:07):
They are so happy. They are in the best school.
I actually work at their school, and my husband volunteers
at the school and he's been their soccer coach for
both of their teams, which is a lot to take on.
He also volunteers in our community at a ranch helping
with horses and at a facility for senior citizens. And
(11:28):
he does have a work permit. They granted him a
work permit, which took a long time to get.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
That's good because that can take a long time.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
It took a long time, over a year, but he
does have it now. So we got excited because he
only got the work permit a couple months ago, so
we're very excited, you know, he can work and now
it's just out of the blue. Our world has turned
upside down where there's a strong potential that he will
(11:56):
be taken into ice custody and listen, I understand if
that's how they want to do things now, but if
it was like a safer situation where maybe they just.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
It's just there's so many unknowns about where are they
taking him. There's our lawyer does not think we will
be informed about where they take him. That's one thing
which means we probably won't be able to communicate with him.
We don't know how long he'll be there. They could
keep him there the entire three years until twenty twenty eight.
(12:31):
They might just want to keep him in detention and wait,
you know, for his next year. It doesn't make any
sense to me because that costs money, and he's a
tax payer. Wouldn't it pay more if he's home working.
By the way, yes, he has no criminal record whatsoever.
He has not broken any immigration laws, at least when
(12:52):
he came over the border. It was legal to present
yourself for asylum when you are coming from a country
like he was. Where he was you know, being harassed, detained,
and our entire family like we were being threatened and
feeling very unsafe there.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
So, yeah, it's a textbook asylum place, right, like.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, we have a valid asylum claim. We've submitted hundreds
of documents of evidence to the court. You know, the
judge actually complimented us on how well we did because
at the time we didn't have an attorney. We were
just trying to do it on our own because we
couldn't afford an attorney. We were both college graduates, so
we put together a really organized, you know case, and
(13:34):
so I have filed to sponsor him as well. You know,
as my husband. We've been together twelve years, married ten
two kids, and they don't care about that. It does
not matter if he has an American family, it does
not matter. They are taking anybody. And that also is very,
very frustrating, and that's the reason that we should have
due process. They should be looking at every single case
(13:57):
individually and have a judge make a decision. That's the
whole point of it. Obviously, if we hadn't hindsight, if
we had known that this could have happened, we had
(14:20):
no idea that this could have happened in our country,
we would have started this sponsorship process a long time ago.
The reason we did and is because he was married
before and he went through this process with USCIS to
try to get sponsorship with his first wife, and it
was extremely complicated and frustrating and cost a lot of money,
and he went through a bunch of lawyers and he
(14:41):
was so traumatized by the experience that literally we had
big legal files in our house that I had to
hide because he couldn't even see them or he would
get triggered. So he didn't want to put me through that.
And we were living in Tunisia anyway, and so we
just figured we were just kind of kicking the can
down the road, thinking, oh, we'll deal with it at
some point. Unfortunately, we waited way too long and you know,
(15:03):
didn't start dealing with it until he got here. And
so USCIS, which is where we you know, file for
this sponsorship.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, you ask Customs Immigration Service people know familiar.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yes, thank you. After we filed that, they gave us
a time period on when we would get the decision.
It was fifteen months that we would have to wait.
And we've been checking the site, checking the site, checking
the site, has been counting down, counting down, and about
a month ago we were down.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
To a week, oh well, okay, that we would be.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Getting a decision, and after the week passed, it changed
the message on the app now or the website now
says and definitely you'll have to wait indefinitely for this decision.
So we've been trying to ask our lawyer please push
for this because if that gets you know, an answer,
that would be great. But the answer could be no
(15:53):
on that as well. They could just say no, come
on in and they can take him straight from there
as well. So the whole thing is so incredibly stressful
and frightening the fact that my government, I'm in America,
I'm an American citizen with two American kids, and my
government is threatening to tear our family apart and take
(16:15):
my husband away, the father of my children, and traumatize
my children again to have their dad not with us,
and lord knows where they're going to send him. It
is absolutely infuriating, and it feels like agony too, because
like every day I wake up and I'm counting down
the days to this hearing, and we have no idea
(16:36):
what's going to happen. Right, it feels very very threatening
to our safety and our livelihood, and that it's coming
from our government does not make me feel like this
is a great country to live in and I do
not feel safe living here.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
That's a lot too, yeah to have to put out there,
so thank you for sharing it. Yes, we should just
explain for people, like there's a lot of stuff that
maybe people who haven't been through the system might not
not grasp within that right, So what the government has
if I just break down, like the dismissal of cases,
as I understand that what the government has been doing
(17:16):
has been dismissing people's asylum case right, which they got
under Title eight when they entered and added by the administration,
and then placing them in expedited removal proceedings, which is
a mandatory detention as you said, right, it's not a
bailout situation, and then as you say, forcing them to
fight from detention, right, which in this case would obviously
stop your husband from working, stop your husband from paying taxes,
(17:39):
and instead make him a burden on the American taxpayer
while he's detained in conditions which could often be very poor.
In that situation, You're only sort of claim is a
credible fear of torture, right, which is something that in
your case, it sounds like would be very real. But nonetheless,
that is a very high bar, and we've seen the
United States do all kinds of things to get around that.
(18:02):
We've got on that all the time, so I can
understand that fear and where it comes from. I think
people will be shocked, but they perhaps shouldn't be to
hear that, Like, yes, you can be a US citizen
married to a non US citizen. This can still happen
to you. It can happen to anyone who is not
a citizen in this country right now. I wonder, like
(18:24):
it must have been pretty heartbreaking to see the election,
to see the rhetoric, Like how does that line up
with your lives in your community? Because I see this
often even from really conservative people, right, Like I know
people who voted for Trump who have also shown up
to cook for asylum seekers in the desert or to
(18:47):
help refugees living in our community. Like it's a very
strange thing. Have you felt alienated from your community since
the beginning of this year, because I'm interested in, like
how your lives have changed because of that change in rhetoric.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yes, Like I said, we have neighbors on our streets.
So there was a block party for Fourth of July,
which I didn't even feel like celebrating, but we had
just moved into this house, so we felt, you know,
like we should go at least meet the neighbors. And
there's a lot of Trump flags on our street, and
it was very awkward. But my husband is very charming
and charismatic and outgoing, and he just goes right up
(19:27):
and introduces himself. And there was one gentleman wearing a
T shirt that said they hate us because they ate us,
and it's got a big old, you know, Trump face
on it, and it was just so so awkward. So yeah,
we feel uncomfortable. Also, like I said, it's a leans
conservative in this community and our school. Even like, as
(19:47):
we're doing this fundraiser, we were very careful not to
share it with anyone that we live near, just in case,
you know, because we have been hearing reports of people
like neighbors calling ice on their neighbors to you report
them and you know, go pick up this person. You know,
he looks brown or I don't know what they're what
they're doing or their logic, but you know, yeah, it
(20:09):
feels very threatening and even Oh. My daughter even said, uh,
can't Data just cover up his skin? You know, like
she was just thinking like, yeah, was he gonna wear
her cup?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah? Right?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I mean, you can't really hide who you are, and
you shouldn't have.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
To, right, And it's very hard for the kids to
be saying that, yeah, the dad should be hiding.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And they've asked me, how can we make Trump just
forget about Data, you know, and I said, well, he
doesn't really know. They don't you know, he doesn't know
exactly your dad. He's just they're doing this to a
lot of people. You know. We just happened to be
in that group. But I will say we have some
some close friends that we really adore and they are Trumpers.
You know, we see it on their Facebook page, but
(20:55):
then when we're in their presence, they don't bring it up,
and it's just kind of an elephant room. And honestly,
as our core data is getting closer, we plan on
having them over to talk about it because it feels
very awkward. And I just think there's the kindest people.
They're extremely religious, which we are not when we're on
(21:16):
the spiritual side, but you know, I think they're just
they're just on a team. They've chosen a team, and
I don't think they're necessarily paying a lot of attention
to what's actually happening to people. So we're hoping that
just a conversation will just let them know. We want
to be honest with the people that are close to us,
and that mean a lot to us, you know, because
we don't know what's about to happen. And even there's
(21:39):
members of my family that I feel very awkward talking
to as well, where I'm kind of distanced myself because
people who are still supporting this regime at this point,
to me are too far gone to even kind of
get them to come around, I guess. I mean, I
just don't understand. I can't understand support of Trump from
(22:03):
the first place. So again, if people are still on
that boat, I really don't relate to them, and it's
very awkward. Especially Yeah, people in my family who supposedly
love me and my children, you know, are still supporting
that regime, and despite seeing all the things, maybe they
(22:24):
don't see it. I mean, I know they if they
are exclusively watching Fox News, then they are only receiving
that information, which is not telling the whole story, right,
And it's definitely completely skewed to make them look like
the good guys, and anyone on that's liberal is a
bad guy. And they're very much targeting you know, Democrats
(22:46):
now as the enemy, the enemy of the state. They
have even said. So it's I mean, it's so now
I'm starting to feel even nonsafe for myself because I'm
I'm not super active on Facebook, but I am outspoken
because I can't resist. I mean, there is freedom of
speech in this country, or at least there was, and
(23:06):
there should be. And it's hard to be quiet at
this time. And we would be a lot more outspoken
if we weren't feeling unsafe.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, but you have that fear, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yes, especially my husband because he's always been an activist
and a you know, fighter for free speech and equal rights,
and so it's that's one of the things that's really
crushing him and his soul and his spirit through all this,
is that he cannot even speak out. Yes, so you know,
for people like him. It's not even for himself, but
(23:39):
just for people like him. I know he wants to help,
you know, and it's really challenging.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I know, it's so sad to see the whole point
of the asylum system, and like at least the sort
of stated purpose of American foreign policy, it's sort of
spread democracy throughout the world, and a lot of people
have stood up for democracy and been persecuted to come
here and be safe. Evidently the United States doesn't even
believe it's saying that anymore, in so much as it
(24:06):
said it didn't always do it in the past. Yeah,
it is really sad to think that, like even that
it's gone. Yeah, for so many people. I think the
idea of migrants is like an abstract one right for
your Fox News viewer. Migrants are just like an abstract
brown skin bad person. And I often think that if
those people had known migrants in their community, they would
(24:26):
either not vote that way or they would at least
not like that policy. There are other things they liked
about Trump, which it go. That's not something I can
I can find much understanding of. And those people do exist,
but it's just so sad to see like people turned
against anyone who wasn't born in this country. Yeah, it's
simply because they were, not because of any other character trait.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
They have, particularly the brown skin though, because you have
to admit the Canadians there. I mean, even though there's
been a little tension with the Canadians at first in
this regime, you know, pretty much under the radar, and
anyone from Europe or anyone. He's even said like send
a Nordic people, that's fine, you know, I mean, he's
he's very clear, right, Yeah, the Africans refugees are welcome.
(25:11):
Come on. It's just so blatant, you know. And and
I remember when I was growing up, my mom in particular,
would would complain when when we started to have to
press one for English. I remember my mom complaining about
that or thinking, you know, you know, if you're here,
you should learn the language. Well, I got to say,
I lived in Tunisia for eight years and I did
(25:34):
not learn the language. I tried to teach myself. It's
a dialect that you know, at the time, they didn't
have lessons that you could get on YouTube or duo
lingo or anything. You know. If I learned French and Arabic,
maybe I could piece something together. But I you know,
it's not as easy as people say.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
And yeah, yeah, And then just.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
To speak of my mother, I guess she prides her
self on making friends with people at the grocery store
who are of another ethnicity, or like really you know,
getting to know a doctor, or she has a housekeeper
who's been working for her for like thirty years, and
so I know she doesn't think of that person as
(26:18):
being someone that shouldn't be here, right, So you know,
so I think even if you do know a family
or two who's who's an immigrant, you might think, oh, well,
not them, I don't mean them, I mean also other ones.
I mean all the bad guys.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, the bad ones.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, and if Trump was serious about getting the bad
ones go to the gang neighborhoods, Like we do know
where the dangerous gang neighborhoods are, but they're not sending
the tanks there. They're sending them to MacArthur Park, you know,
home depot. It's like, if you want to get the gangs,
get the gangs. But I think they're too scared of
(26:54):
that because these are really just regular people that they're
hiring to do this work for them to people, and
that's why they're hiding their faces, because they are regular
people who would like to probably have a normal life
outside of this new job that they've been so well
paid for.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Right, Yeah, and certainly they're they're recruiting a lot more
people to do that right now, which is can I
only see a step up in enforcement?
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I wonder like in so much anything has helped because
people will want to help, right Like, I think people
will listen, they will understand a situation, they will see
the possibility of your family being torn apart and want
to help. But it's hard to help right now, right
unless you're an immigration lawyer. And every pro bono immigration
lawyer I know is mental health damaging levels of overworked
(27:50):
and stressed and traumatized. I think, So what can people do,
either for you or in their communities to show up
for people who are in your situation?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I would say donate. You could donate to the ACL,
you donate to individual families like ours. I'm sure. I
think there's a lot of gofundmes out there that people
are trying to raise money for. That's the way, you know,
everything is kind of done these days when people are
desperate and speak out, And I think the most important
thing is have conversations and get to know people and
(28:23):
even like, yeah, sometimes I see you know, a Hispanic
person in a grocery store. I just wanted to tell them,
thank you for being here. I'm glad you're here, because
I think they must be feeling so scared right now
and so unwanted and so unappreciated when they are doing
some of the hardest jobs that nobody else wants to
do for very little money. Yeah, these are essential workers.
(28:47):
They should be paid the most. Everything is backwards, you know.
The people who are doing the hardest, you know, cleaning
the toilets and picking the fields, they should be paid
the most. It doesn't make any sense. Regardless of where
they're from, they're willing to do the work, and Lord
knows their background of where they came from and how
the struggles that they've been through to leave their home country.
(29:09):
Nobody wants to leave their home country. You do that
because it's so bad that you must, you know, especially
if you have children. You're trying to make a better
life for yourself. And we've been sold on this American
dream prospect. You know that we've heard our whole lives
and the whole world has heard about So they come
and now we're just punishing them brutally. It's not even like,
(29:32):
oh no, sorry, we're full, you know, we're gonna have
to send you back. It's like, no, we're gonna punish you.
We're gonna treat you like dogs, call you animals and
vermin and call you horrible things. Yeah, send you to
places where you're unsafe and untaken care of, and maybe,
if you're lucky, you'll get sent back to your home country,
or you'll get sent to a random country or even
(29:53):
a prison, like a horrible prison in another country where
who knows what's It's just this is what frightens me. Yea,
you know again, if he was sent to somewhere, to
a place where I could you know, we could have
visits or calls or you know, and he waits it out,
I guess that would be more tolerable than the unknown
of his safety. He's not going to be well taken
(30:16):
care of. That's a fact. They don't care about these people.
And my husband, unfortunately, he's always been extremely strong, extremely brave,
a fighter, and I feel like his fight is gone.
He's physically and mentally at the end of his rope.
And I'm extremely frightened. I mean, he just feels like
(30:36):
he's tired of fighting. He's just exhausted from this, you
know again, I mean, we've been together twelve years. And
again he was going through this process with his first
wife who he was with for eight years, and he
never got an answer. He was never denied, but he
just never got an answer, and that was enough for
them for our case, just to you know, it's going
(30:56):
to be really, really difficult to get a yes for
a green card.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it still happens. I've heard of
it happening even in the last few months, but it
is increasingly harder and less common, and that is brutal.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
And the way, of course, as you're saying, system is
designed to make you feel hopeless and just to as
they call it self, deport.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Yes, And even our lawyer doesn't know what to do.
And I feel the judge seems like a nice person,
and I would imagine it must be very frustrating too
to be a judge at this time where they have
to be the ones that are just kind of their
hands are tied. They will lose their job if they
don't do what the regime wants them to do. So
(31:43):
you know, this is what happens in third world countries.
This is why America has been great, because we weren't
like this before with US, you know, cutting out free
speech and things like that. It's changing rapidly and if
people don't stand up more, and I'm sorry, but it's
going to have to take more than these peaceful protests. Unfortunately,
(32:06):
because they're not doing anything. We are being laughed at
by the Maga Republicans. They do not care about our
peaceful protests. They're just like, Okay, there's a protest on
this day. Next day, They're just going to keep doing
it harder, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Sure, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Not changing anything, so something has to change. I'm hoping
more celebrities come out and start speaking up. I think
that would help because people tend to back the celebrities
that they love, and I'm kind of alarmed that more
people like especially the most powerful celebrities like Oprah for example,
why aren't they out there every day, yeah, you know,
(32:42):
saying this is what I support and this is what
I don't support. I think they're scared, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I would imagine, so what a sad thought.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I do think that the Maga Republicans are outnumbered, and
I think that they're continuously going to be outnumbered as
things get more and more you know, shocking as we're
seeing our freedoms being stripped, the constitutional freedoms that we've
always known being stripped. I think it's going to get worse,
and I don't know how about it has to get
(33:12):
before change happens.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I don't think any of us do. I do
think you're right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
The more and more people are not happy with HAWS
is happening, But there doesn't even seem to be a
well among Democrats to oppose this in a meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Yeah, she's very.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Sad and like, yeah, even the Democrats in power don't
know what to do.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I mean, yeah, and they seem to think that it's
electoral suicide just to be basically decent and say, we
need to be decent people and kind to people who
come here asking us to help them. And there seems
to be something that is just inadmissible in electoral politics,
which is really sad.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, so you guys have your court date. We will
obviously continue covering this.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
We get We're going to continue updating people.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
We will continue talking about this and covering this, and yeah,
we'll try and get an update out. This is coming out.
You'll be hearing this on Monday, and we will try
and get an update out within a week or so,
just to let everyone know how things have gone and
what they can do to help. Is there anything else
you'd like to say to people before we go?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Yeah, So, as we found out, you know that there's
a good possibility that he will be taken into iced
attention on Wednesday. We ask our lawyer, Okay, so what
are the next steps if that happens? What you know,
he has a constitutional right to do process of law
habeas corpus and she doesn't know what to do. She's
never done it before. So therefore we need to find
(34:38):
a different lawyer that can help us with that. It's
not in immigration court, it's federal court. So we have inquiries.
We actually have a consult today with someone who maybe
help us with that. We sent emails out last night
kind of telling our story to another lawyer, hoping that
we can get some support and on that front, because
basically that's your next step. You're in detention. You raise
(35:02):
your constitutional rights of due process of law, you know,
but then again it's another fight and again it could
be from detention, which is yeah, more money, I'm going
to be at that point, a single mother, you know,
trying to support bills here in California, which is already
you know, difficult, and you know, on my own, and
(35:25):
also paying lawyers and trying to fight to either find
my husband or get him out of there. You know,
we don't want to be the country if we if
we don't have to. We we love it here. I
don't know where else to go. We can't go to Tunisia.
I'm American. Where are we supposed to go? Yeah? And
that's what people don't understand too with immigrants. You know,
(35:48):
if they can't return to their home country because of
safety reasons, which is most of the cases, that's why
we have the silent cases, then what are they supposed
to do? You know?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
And I don't think a lot of people seem to care, right,
They think people just want people to go away.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Somewhere, go figure it out.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, it's not our problem.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, which in this case it very much is
and in every case, and like it is our problem
that we should take responsibility for one another as well.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Being right, Yes, as humans should care about each other.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, just have empathy at least that's the least we
could do.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, A society that says it's not my problem, it's
not one that any of us should want to live in.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, And in our case, my husband's particularly worried because
if he does get sent back to Tunisia, most definitely
he would be in jail there as well, which is
also not a pleasant experience.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yet to put it mildly, and it would be.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, where they torture people in jail. So yeah, again,
we don't really know what to do or where to go.
But these are the thoughts that we're having.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, they're not unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Yeah, if we do self deport, when do we, Like,
we're trying to push it as long as we can
stay stayed day, stay, stay, stay, stay, you know, and
then when do we let them know? Okay, okay, I
guess we'll self deport, like at the last second before
they take them into detend, like, you know, I don't
know the safe way to do that, right, And then
if we do, can they give us time to get
(37:15):
our affairs in order, Like leaving the country is no
small task and we don't even have money to do that.
So you know, these are our options, These are literally
our options. And again, small children second grade, fourth grade,
you know, and they're thriving here like they don't deserve this.
And my husband even said, you know, he said this
(37:35):
the other day, like our children don't deserve this, and
I said, no, children deserve the horrors of this planet.
You know that. I mean, we're we're actually a lot
luckier than a lot of other children. So but at
the same time, there are children, and this is the
problem that we're dealing with, and unfortunately they have to
deal with it too. You know, that's just what a
(37:56):
family is. Yea. Our goal is to stay together no
matter matter what. We want to keep my husband safe,
and we want to keep us together. That's our number
one call. So unfortunately that may mean that we need
to leave. And I will be very, very sad if
that's the case, because I have always loved this country.
(38:17):
It's always stood for greatness, and ironically, the group that
thinks they're going to make America great again is failing miserably.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's incredibly sad. And like you said,
you've already up and left your children want, yes to
come to a safe place, to be safe, and then
to have to do it again from that safe place,
I'm sure we'll be and the order to get more
than they realize what's happening.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Yeah, it's only two years later, you know, the poor kids.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah exactly. Who. I'm so sorry you're going through this.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
This sucks. We'll all be thinking of you.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
And yeah, if you're listening, I will. I will try
and keep you updated over the next few weeks.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
James, all right, thank you, thank you for your time.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production
of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could
Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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