October 23, 2023 • 31 mins
Shereen is joined by author and journalist Sim Kern to talk about the need to separate Jewish identity from Israel and the importance of Jewish anti-zionist voices in the fight for Palestinian liberation.
Follow Sim:
instagram.com/sim_bookstagrams_badly
twitter.com/sim_kern
simkern.com
Buy: The Free People’s Village: https://linktr.ee/SimKern
Recommended books by Palestinian authors:
Salt Houses by Hana Alyan
Against the Loveless World by Susan Abulhawa
Rifqa by Mohammed el-Kurd
Homeland: My Father Dreams of Palestine by Hannah Moushabeck
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017 by Rashid Khalidi
Recommended books by non-Palestinians authors:
Palestine by Joe Sacco
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappé
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. This
is Scharene and I am so excited to be joined
by author and journalist Sim Kern. Their latest novel, The
Free People's Village, is available now, so go to your
local bookstore and order it and support a voice that
I believe we all need in our zeitgeist right now.
(00:30):
So welcome Sim. Thank you so much for being.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
For those of you who don't know, Sim has been
making videos recently about the genocide and Gaza from a
queer Jewish anti Zionist perspective, and this is one that
I think a lot of people need to be exposed
to and to listen to. I mentioned this to you
before the recording, but a Jewish friend of mine told
me how much she connected with your voice and how
much she's learned from you, and how your videos have
(00:55):
been helping her approach really awkward and difficult conversations with
her peers. So I appreciate very much, Happy to do
whatever I can when you decided to start making like
the first video that got a lot of attention, Like,
were you seeing something that you wanted to like? Make
sure you correct in the zeitgeist, like what was your
perspective as a Jewish person.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Well, this is the first video that I made, was
encouraging people to read books by Palestinian authors, just to
learn about the Palestinian perspective which is so often censored
and not really allowed in our media, and also which
you really have to go seek out in publishing. And
this isn't the first time I've done this, since I
(01:34):
think twenty seventeen or something was the first time I
created Read for Palestine challenge on YouTube. And just creating
this Read for Palestine Challenge was enough to get me
put on the Canary Mission website and like outed as
a anti semi by this very Zionist website that of
(01:55):
course is a blocklist of mostly students who organize with
like Students for Justice in Palestine and really anyone who
speaks out publicly against Israeli apartheid. So simply like encouraging
people to read these books, I think is really powerful
and I know for me, growing up Jewish in the
(02:15):
United States, I was just inundated with a lot of
Zionist propaganda from my more conservative family. My more liberal
family would take the line of like it's just very complicated.
Both sides hate each other. Who can say who's right?
And it was only by reading Palestinian voices that I
(02:36):
really developed an anti Zionist perspective.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
That's awesome that you did the read for Palestine challenge,
but also like not surprising about the Canary mission thing, unfortunately,
but I'm glad that that didn't stop you or discourage
you when you start to learn more about Palestine. How
did you approach conversations with your friends and family?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Again, Like I guess initially it's different talking to and
family than it is talking to the internet. Honestly, it's
much easier, I think sometimes to connect with the internet
because it is not that like personal connection. I think
I've made more headway and had a much greater impact
online than I have with certain friends and family members.
(03:17):
But you know, I do think that everyone having those
conversations putting your beliefs out there, whether it's one on
one in face to face conversations or whether it is
doing it online, where like certainly your friends and family
are going to see the things that you're posting and
the things that you care about.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
It has a great impact.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
And like I've definitely noticed friends of mine over time
who maybe a few intense bombing campaigns ago, were very
checked out on this issue are now very active and
are and are speaking out themselves. And so that's I
guess that would be my message to other like anti
Zionist Jews is even if the first time you're putting
(04:00):
stuff out there about Palestine it feels like no one's listening.
It feels like, you know, you're not making a difference
over time, you're planting the seeds of like questioning the
Western media's you know, pro Israeli perspective over time.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, it's a really really good point. But my friend
also mentioned she would never have been exposed to your
voice if I didn't share it or if people were
not sharing it. So I think people really underestimate the
value of social media sometimes or speaking up on social media.
They're just like, oh, people are already talking about it
or whatever. But everyone has a community they can reach
(04:37):
that no one else can reach. So I think that's
important to remember. You made some points in some videos
that you made that I would love for you to
not like regurgitate, but maybe just like cover for people
that haven't watched your videos or are just unaware in general.
I think a really important point you made was how
suffering is not monopolized or exclusive or any word or
(05:00):
better than other people suffering if regardless of what identity
they are. Can you get into that a little bit.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Yeah, So I made a video that was actually responding
to a comment by someone saying like, how dare you
compare the suffering of Palestinians to the suffering of Jews?
How dare you compare genocides? That that's disgusting and that
cheapens the Holocaust? And that was again I think responding
to a video or I was saying, like, read about
(05:27):
other genocides besides the Holocaust, because I think it again,
as a Jewish American, I grew up steeped in Holocaust literature.
I read every book I could about it. You know,
I think a lot of Jewish kids, by the time
were adolescents. We have like this PhD level knowledge of
the Holocaust. I think that our peers who are non
Jewish maybe don't have quite as much exposure and understanding
(05:50):
of the Holocaust. But that is often the only genocide
that is taught in US schools, And so there's a
narrative that the suffering of the US in the persecution
of Jews is uniquely specific, and that it was all
about the religion. It's something about Judaism itself is why.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
We've been persecuted.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Well, I as an author, I'm currently I'm writing a
book on Jews in the seventeenth century, and I've just
done a ton of research on medieval and early modern
Jewish history. And of course there was religious hate, but
it was motivated by and I contended in this video
that all genocides are motivated by land and wealth and power,
(06:30):
and the hate is manufactured by people in power to
justify taking people's land and wealth and to solidify their
own power as rulers.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And the Christian Church use this.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Against Jews in the medieval and early modern period and
in our times. It's there's no one religion that has
a monopoly on'm committing genocide, you know, there's no one.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
State and because really it's states.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
That are that are committing genocide that you know, it
is not directed to one people. So I've encouraged people
to read books about here in the United States, obviously
the genocide of the Native peoples, the Congolese genocide. You know,
I just recommended a couple of different titles, the Rwandan
genocide for a more recent example, and it is I
(07:22):
reject the framework that you can't make comparisons between genocides.
I think that keeps us ignorant. I think that keeps
us from being in solidarity with one another and understanding
the mechanisms of power and control and wealth accumulation that
underlie all of these genocides. And I do believe what
is happening in Palestine right now is a genocide being
(07:44):
committed by the Israeli state.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, and also really good point about justifying it by
creating all of people in Palestine as barbarians or terrorists
or this just this rhetoric that becomes really dangerous and harmful.
As we've seen, people can die. A sixty year old
can die from this rhetoric.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Right man, Yahoo just said this is a struggle between
children of light and children of darkness.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Like that cannot rhetoric.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I cannot believe that tweet. And I mean he deleted it,
but I mean the Internet is forever. I just can't
believe that was that is so normal for him to tweet,
just confidently at one point, just to say that out Loud.
I think that's absurd, and also just like to see
how Yoev Galant has been saying like human animals or
(08:33):
referring to Palestinians in such a dehumanizing way. You mentioned
something really important that I think I appreciated about how
maintaining the dehumanization of the Palestinians is vital to maintain
the white supremacist, imperialistic thing that is Israel. Can you
get into that a little bit?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, well, I think that was me trying. That came
out of me trying to understand why there was such
backlash when I, when I first years ago started recommending
people read Palestinian books. Is because when you read a
book by a Palestinian author, it is going to humanize
the Palestinian people for you, and that is incredibly threatening.
(09:14):
And Palestinian authors face a ton of discrimination within publishing.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, look at.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
What was it Earlier this week the Frankfurt Book Festival
polled or canceled a ceremony for a Palestinian author, Adania Shibley,
and then has made more time for Israeli voices and
Israeli specific panels at that book festival, and simply because
(09:43):
she's a Palestinian. She writes books dealing with real, factual
Palestinian history, and her books are critical of Israel. But
the silencing of Palestinian voices is a global project. It
is across all media industries. You see it in you know,
traditional book publishing as well as journalism. Another an author
(10:06):
friend of mine, hannein Ricott, has had the hardest time
she's been on sub with her book, and she's been
told by multiple editors to change the main character from
a Palestinian character to just a generic Arabic character because
being Palestinian is seen as inherently too controversial to publish.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, I read that. That's just I mean, again, not
completely surprised, but just so shameful that that is something
that is still happening in these modern times. I think
another thing to remember is a lot of people get
confused between the differences between being non white and white
in the scope of like this world. I guess it
(10:48):
just seems so obvious that colorism and racism both exist
in today's world. And I really liked what you mentioned
about the difference between colorism and racism. Can you talk
about that for a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, Yeah, So I was explaining that in the Western media,
Israelis are treated as white and Palestinians are treated as
non white, and it really is regardless of the color
of your skin. So a lot of people giving me
pushback on that common say, oh, but there's black and
brown and white israelis yes, And in the racist apartheid
state that is Israel, people of different skin tones are
(11:23):
treated very differently. Within Israel, there was force sterilization of
African Jews immigrating to Israel. Well, when it comes to
the Western media, our view of the conflict is not
as nuanced as recognizing those differences. And so I was
explaining that colorism is discrimination based on the color of
(11:43):
your skin. Racism is a racial construct us about social, economic,
and legal discrimination. And while colorism is often used to
determine racism, that's not always one hundred percent the case.
And in the case of Israel, when you're talking abo
the Western media looking at Israel, they report on Israelis
(12:04):
as people, as people who are to be mourned, as
people are whose deaths are important, as people whose lives
are valuable, And they report on people in Gaza Palestinians,
as you know, human shields is the most sympathetic way
we hear.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Them talked about.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Their deaths are not deemed important. They are not humanized
within the media. If they're killed, they're either combatants or
they were a human shield, they were someone being used
by combatants, and their deaths are you know, maybe the
lip services paid to those debts being regrettable, but they're
seen as necessary and not not unconscionable in the way
(12:47):
that deaths in Israel are reported on.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, I think you bring a really good point about
the media and how important semantics are. I think something
that we've been seeing time and time again is how
deep the dehumanization goes. Like Israelis have been killed versus
Palestinians have died. The Gaza strip is being referred to.
I've seen it as an enclave. Oh my god, you know,
(13:11):
an enclave where terrorists lurk.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
So yeah, the words used to describe the city of Gaza,
the words used to describe people as combatants, the words like,
you know, Palestinians die in a clash when that clash
was racist Jewish settlers with machine guns coming after them,
you know. So yeah, yeah, Patay does a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It does, it does. I mean We've seen it just
recently with the hospital bombing. How the New York Times
changed their headline like three times from strike and then
to blast. I believe was what they landed on blast,
which I just find honestly comical when I really think
about it too hard.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Yeah, Elizabeth War came out and condemned clasts.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Like that is just so just the passive voice is
so dangerous because it it really off usecates the truth,
which is that Palestine people are dying of genocide. Even
calling it a war or a conflict does not do
what's happening justice because it still implies there are two
equal sides that are fighting against each other versus an
(14:25):
occupier and oppressor versus the occupied the oppressed. So I
think semantics are so important for us to keep in
mind even when we're talking about it with our peers,
to make sure that we talk about in the correct way,
because I feel like it unconsciously becomes ingrained in us,
even if we don't realize it when we keep talking
about certain things the way the media wants us to
(14:48):
talk about them as a conflict or as a clash
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And something else that I've really tuned into is really
being careful not to pit this as a struggle between
muscles and Jews. Any framing like that is both Islamophobic
and anti Semitic and incredibly inaccurate. This is about an
ethno state, a nation state and apartheid state, which is
Israel targeting it is captive population, and it is and
(15:18):
there are Palestinians who are of all different faiths who
are discriminated against because they are Palestinians within occupied Palestine.
So like, for example, it just came to my attention
that there are some in the I'm a book talker,
my book talk channels in books to gram is mostly
(15:40):
what I do is just, you know, share about books
for folks to read, and share.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
About the books I'm working on.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
And some of my fellow book talkers have been recommending
people read books by both Palestinian and Jewish authors so
they can show both sides. A Palestinian author, Hannahmushabak, just
wrote a great letter to sort of call in our
community and explain this is a this is very anti
semitic to conflate Judaism with Israel.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
The policies of Israel.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
You know, yesterday we saw five hundred Jewish activists get
arrested in the Capitol building here in DC in protests
and demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. So there are many,
many anti Zionist Jews. Judaism and Zionism are not the
same thing, but conflating them gives Israel more power and
(16:32):
gives it a stronger moral foothold to say, oh, we're
representing all Jews, not just this state. So that's something
also to be really careful about, is to not pit
this as a Muslim versus Jewish fight, because it's not.
It's about Israel, the state versus Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, that's vital to remember. Let's take our first break
right here, and we will beat right back and we
are back. You were just talking about how this is
(17:17):
just one percent not a religious issue, and I think
talking about semantics again. I framing it as a religious
issue is another way for people to stop talking about it,
to be too afraid to get into this complicated, ancient
battle of all times, archaic thing that we can't even
get into because we can't understand it. I think the
(17:37):
Zionist narrative wants us to believe it's about religion. So
people can ignore what's actually going on and be too
scared to speak out. It's like time and time again.
Something that I want to remind people is that it's
not Muslim versus Jewish, which is what it gets framed
by most of the time. But speaking of Zionism and
how it's not equated to the Jewish religion at all.
(17:59):
If anything, Zionism is anti Semitic in and of itself.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I believe that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I believe Zionism makes all do so much more unsafe.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, it's it's also rooted in a lot of anti Semitism.
Even the way it was even the way the state
of Israel was created was Europeans being like, hey, Jews,
can you go here? It wasn't this gift to the
Jewish people. It was also about to be in Africa,
which I find fascinating. And also I think people always
forget the majority of Zionists in the United States are
(18:29):
Evangelical Christians. That is one percent accurate. That's why they
support Zionism, and it's because they want all the Jews
to go to Israel for the rapture to happen. It
is the most like comic book idea I've ever heard,
and everyone just goes along with it. Yeah, that brings
me to another thing he brought up in your videos
about needing a homeland. I think what you discussed is
(18:53):
really important because because of this narrative that a lot
of Zionists teach to Jewish people about how they're constantly
being perted, I think people are led to believe that
Israel is their safe haven, Like if all us fails,
I have Israel to go back to that as my home,
even like American Jews that have no connection to Israel. Really, why,
in your opinion, do the Jewish people not necessarily need
(19:17):
a homeland? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Well, I made that video speaking to like other leftists.
I was addressing other leftists. So I think if you
agree with me on the premise that everyone should have
a safe place to live and everyone should have equal rights,
which I think are two pretty pretty basic tenets of
being a leftist, then you just can't have anybody having
(19:43):
a theocratic ethno state, which is what Israel is de
fact I mean they say they're not, but that is
how they act.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And how that is how that country is run.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
And so you know a lot of people misinterpreted that videos,
as you know, try kind of try to argue with me, saying,
but there's other theocratic ethno states. But I'm saying, yeah,
if you're a leftist, you should think that's bad everywhere,
because a theocratic ethno state is an inherently fascist construct.
It's inherently saying one religion and or one ethnicity, in
(20:15):
the case of the way Israel interprets Judaism, these people
are more valuable and are more citizens here and have
more rights here than everybody else. And that is just
incompatible with leftist values, I think. And so the point
of that video is nobody should have a theocratic ethno state.
(20:37):
And this is a line that I've heard even some
leftist Jews saying, well, oh, we you know, this is
a complicated issue because Jews need a homeland. Well, I'm sorry,
our world is just two heterogenous, too diverse. You know,
migrations have been going on for tens of thousands of
years all over the place. There's no one plot of
land on Earth anymore that you can carve out and say, Okay,
(21:00):
just this one type of people are going to get
to live.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Here and be citizens here and have rights here.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Now I'm an anarchist personally, so I when I say
no theocratic ethno states, I'm also like in a bigger
picture way saying like no states would be the ideal
for me. But certainly theocratic ethno states are even worse
within that framework compared to like liberal democracies or something.
(21:31):
So yeah, that was a video that was like intended
to be an in group conversation, and then it got
a million views and got because my following has like
really exploded over the last week. So I wasn't expecting
it to go so far. And so for people who
(21:51):
idealize ethno states, like Japan or Sweden, they were really
having a hard time with me with me saying that,
and think it was really anti semitic for me to say, Oh,
I don't think Jews should have theocratic ethno state, but no,
I think nobody should have a theocratic ethno state.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That's a really good point to make. It's I mean,
it goes back to the idea of Jewish suffering being
more valuable in some way than other suffering. I think
it continues this hierarchy of sorts and everything you described
about people not being treated the same and not having
enough rights. That's all apartheid. I think people forget like
Israel is committing the definition of apartheid and has been
(22:32):
against the Palestinian people, and I find it weird that.
I mean, Amy Schumer posted this crazy video proving in
her words that it's not an apartheid state actually and
how people have all the rights in the world when
in reality it's shameful.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, it's like the UN, Amnesty, International, Human Rights Watch
are all saying this is an apartheid state. But okay,
Amy Schumer, Yeah, it's it's not actually that complicated.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
It's really not. I've been really appreciating Amanda Seals. She
did like a reaction video to what Amy Schumer posted
and laid out all the racist reasons why actually apartheid
is what you would call that. I think something that
(23:27):
has bothered me within the both sides thing is this
is not a term that I hear often anymore. But
like the progressive except Palestine, I think that idea has
been really damaging because it makes it seem like you
can still be so liberal and progressive and still not
(23:47):
really recognize that Palestinians are being genocided for almost a century.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, and this is just so frustrating because again, what
you're seeing in Palestine, it's so stark, the violence is
so obvious, and it's so egregious. And there's all these
social justice you know, organizations and accounts that I followed.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
There's like queer Jewish.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Liberation accounts who have said nothing about Palestine. There's also
non jew its, just queer you know, all sorts of
queer liberation queer activists out there, which is like a
whole other network that I'm tapped in into, and many
of them are staying silent on this genocide. And it's
like we are all fighting the same evils, the same
(24:33):
type of oppression, and if you want people to stand
with you when your rights are being taken away, you
got to stand with everybody else.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
That's the only way.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Intersectionality is the only way that we can overcome these
enormous forces of oppression in the world. So, yeah, it's
it's been very frustrating to see just how many you know,
anti racist organizations, queer liberation organizations are just staying completely
silent on Palestine.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I have been really frustrated about that as well, because
it encourages this sort of selective outrage that is reserved
for certain kind of people that are deemed as human
versus the people that are not. I really believe one
of the most powerful voices in the fight for Palatine
liberation are Jewish anti Zionists because they can speak to
(25:25):
what people deem is the source of that problem from
a different place. But I hope you realize how important
your voice is just in general, especially now. And yeah,
I just really thank you for what you've been doing,
because it's kind of scary too. I'm sure to suddenly
have a big platform and have all these people analyzing
(25:46):
everything you're saying and trying to find little holes in
your arguments. But I appreciate that you're not backing down.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
I went from six thousand to one hundred eighty thousand
followers on Instagram in like a week.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I didn't realize that you started a six thousand. I
was wondering about that. That is a crazy jump.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, it happened really really fast.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
And on TikTok too, I had I had fifty thousand
on TikTok just from my book talk author talk account,
which I've been you know, growing over the course of
two years, and then it went.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Now it's like at one.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Hundred and fifty thousand, so like tripled on TikTok. But yeah,
it's definitely made me more careful about what I say.
Like again, I had that one video that was sort
of like an in group comment to leftists because I'm
used to being on like the leftist side of TikTok,
and then realized, like, oh crap, like everything I say
(26:39):
is going to go out to like absolutely every single
kind of audience, So I need to like really think
about the context of what I say and.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That it Yeah, it's a it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, I'm I mean, it sounds really overwhelming and even
navigating it well and I don't know, I really appreciate you.
Before we wrap this up, I would love for you
to talk about your work a little bit, maybe your
book where people can find it, where they can support
you in your work. The platform is all yours.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
So I actually had a book come out about a
month ago called The Free People's Village, and it is
relevant to this topic. It's a very leftist book. It's
about a punk band organizing to save their warehouse from
demolition to make room for a new electromatic magnetic hyperway
in an alternate timeline where al Gore won the two
thousand election and declared a war on climate change instead
(27:34):
of a war on terror. But it's a book that's
really critical of neoliberal politics. So this solar punk utopia
that's been created this world has really only impacted wealthy
white neighborhoods while leaving everybody else behind. So it's a
book about centering racial justice within climate organizing. And the
final scene of the book actually takes place at a
(27:55):
Free Palestine protest, and so that's definitely like a present
throughout the book, and based on experiences I've had organizing
with the incredible Students for Justice in Palestine and Palestini
youth movement organizers that we have here in Houston.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So for people who.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Are listeners of this podcast, I do think they would
enjoy the Free People's Village. And you can get it.
The best place to get it is always your local
indie bookstore. Of course, you can also support your local
indie bookstore by shopping at bookshop dot org, which allows
you all the convenience of ordering online, but you get
(28:34):
to pick your favorite indie bookstore to benefit. And then
of course you can get it also from all of
the big corporate retailers, and it's available in hardcover and
ebook and audiobook. And you can find me online at
sim Kern on TikTok and if you search simcar it's
(28:55):
at sim Bookstagram's badly on Instagram, but if you just
search sim Kernel, I'll pop up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And that is s I N K E r N.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
For people that don't know, Yes, just.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To leave us with something that we can take away
from this, do you have any advice for people that
are trying to open up these discussions with their peers
and how should they approach them? And I don't know.
I think these conversations are essential to humanizing Palestinians. Again,
so do you have any advice before we sign off?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
You know, same advice which was the first piece I gave,
which was just.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
To read a lot and learn.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
A lot and seek out those Palestinian voices. Also Jewish
Voice for Peace.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
If you go to.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Their JVP dot org website, they have a ton of
like great tools and kits for learning how to talk
about Palestine. And so I would say, you know, always
be learning and reading if you feel like you don't
have the language yet to have these conversations.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Like you said, it's really.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Powerful to repost things by commentators that you respect, journalists
on the ground in Gaza right now who are doing amazing,
courageous work. Just letting people know what is happening and
putting something out that disrupts an imperialist narrative can be
really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you for saying all of that, because it's really needed.
And I will put in the description all the info
to where you can follow sim and their work, and
maybe I can put some recommendations for Palestinian books as well.
And yeah, that's the episode. Thank you so much for
being here.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Thanks for having me Free Palestine.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly,
cool zone Meedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello everybody, and welcome to it could happen here. This
is Scharene and I am so excited to be joined
by author and journalist Sim Kern. Their latest novel, The
Free People's Village, is available now, so go to your
local bookstore and order it and support a voice that
I believe we all need in our zeitgeist right now.
(00:30):
So welcome Sim. Thank you so much for being.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
For those of you who don't know, Sim has been
making videos recently about the genocide and Gaza from a
queer Jewish anti Zionist perspective, and this is one that
I think a lot of people need to be exposed
to and to listen to. I mentioned this to you
before the recording, but a Jewish friend of mine told
me how much she connected with your voice and how
much she's learned from you, and how your videos have
(00:55):
been helping her approach really awkward and difficult conversations with
her peers. So I appreciate very much, Happy to do
whatever I can when you decided to start making like
the first video that got a lot of attention, Like,
were you seeing something that you wanted to like? Make
sure you correct in the zeitgeist, like what was your
perspective as a Jewish person.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Well, this is the first video that I made, was
encouraging people to read books by Palestinian authors, just to
learn about the Palestinian perspective which is so often censored
and not really allowed in our media, and also which
you really have to go seek out in publishing. And
this isn't the first time I've done this, since I
(01:34):
think twenty seventeen or something was the first time I
created Read for Palestine challenge on YouTube. And just creating
this Read for Palestine Challenge was enough to get me
put on the Canary Mission website and like outed as
a anti semi by this very Zionist website that of
(01:55):
course is a blocklist of mostly students who organize with
like Students for Justice in Palestine and really anyone who
speaks out publicly against Israeli apartheid. So simply like encouraging
people to read these books, I think is really powerful
and I know for me, growing up Jewish in the
(02:15):
United States, I was just inundated with a lot of
Zionist propaganda from my more conservative family. My more liberal
family would take the line of like it's just very complicated.
Both sides hate each other. Who can say who's right?
And it was only by reading Palestinian voices that I
(02:36):
really developed an anti Zionist perspective.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
That's awesome that you did the read for Palestine challenge,
but also like not surprising about the Canary mission thing, unfortunately,
but I'm glad that that didn't stop you or discourage
you when you start to learn more about Palestine. How
did you approach conversations with your friends and family?
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Again, Like I guess initially it's different talking to and
family than it is talking to the internet. Honestly, it's
much easier, I think sometimes to connect with the internet
because it is not that like personal connection. I think
I've made more headway and had a much greater impact
online than I have with certain friends and family members.
(03:17):
But you know, I do think that everyone having those
conversations putting your beliefs out there, whether it's one on
one in face to face conversations or whether it is
doing it online, where like certainly your friends and family
are going to see the things that you're posting and
the things that you care about.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
It has a great impact.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
And like I've definitely noticed friends of mine over time
who maybe a few intense bombing campaigns ago, were very
checked out on this issue are now very active and
are and are speaking out themselves. And so that's I
guess that would be my message to other like anti
Zionist Jews is even if the first time you're putting
(04:00):
stuff out there about Palestine it feels like no one's listening.
It feels like, you know, you're not making a difference
over time, you're planting the seeds of like questioning the
Western media's you know, pro Israeli perspective over time.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, it's a really really good point. But my friend
also mentioned she would never have been exposed to your
voice if I didn't share it or if people were
not sharing it. So I think people really underestimate the
value of social media sometimes or speaking up on social media.
They're just like, oh, people are already talking about it
or whatever. But everyone has a community they can reach
(04:37):
that no one else can reach. So I think that's
important to remember. You made some points in some videos
that you made that I would love for you to
not like regurgitate, but maybe just like cover for people
that haven't watched your videos or are just unaware in general.
I think a really important point you made was how
suffering is not monopolized or exclusive or any word or
(05:00):
better than other people suffering if regardless of what identity
they are. Can you get into that a little bit.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
Yeah, So I made a video that was actually responding
to a comment by someone saying like, how dare you
compare the suffering of Palestinians to the suffering of Jews?
How dare you compare genocides? That that's disgusting and that
cheapens the Holocaust? And that was again I think responding
to a video or I was saying, like, read about
(05:27):
other genocides besides the Holocaust, because I think it again,
as a Jewish American, I grew up steeped in Holocaust literature.
I read every book I could about it. You know,
I think a lot of Jewish kids, by the time
were adolescents. We have like this PhD level knowledge of
the Holocaust. I think that our peers who are non
Jewish maybe don't have quite as much exposure and understanding
(05:50):
of the Holocaust. But that is often the only genocide
that is taught in US schools, And so there's a
narrative that the suffering of the US in the persecution
of Jews is uniquely specific, and that it was all
about the religion. It's something about Judaism itself is why.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
We've been persecuted.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Well, I as an author, I'm currently I'm writing a
book on Jews in the seventeenth century, and I've just
done a ton of research on medieval and early modern
Jewish history. And of course there was religious hate, but
it was motivated by and I contended in this video
that all genocides are motivated by land and wealth and power,
(06:30):
and the hate is manufactured by people in power to
justify taking people's land and wealth and to solidify their
own power as rulers.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And the Christian Church use this.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Against Jews in the medieval and early modern period and
in our times. It's there's no one religion that has
a monopoly on'm committing genocide, you know, there's no one.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
State and because really it's states.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
That are that are committing genocide that you know, it
is not directed to one people. So I've encouraged people
to read books about here in the United States, obviously
the genocide of the Native peoples, the Congolese genocide. You know,
I just recommended a couple of different titles, the Rwandan
genocide for a more recent example, and it is I
(07:22):
reject the framework that you can't make comparisons between genocides.
I think that keeps us ignorant. I think that keeps
us from being in solidarity with one another and understanding
the mechanisms of power and control and wealth accumulation that
underlie all of these genocides. And I do believe what
is happening in Palestine right now is a genocide being
(07:44):
committed by the Israeli state.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, and also really good point about justifying it by
creating all of people in Palestine as barbarians or terrorists
or this just this rhetoric that becomes really dangerous and harmful.
As we've seen, people can die. A sixty year old
can die from this rhetoric.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Right man, Yahoo just said this is a struggle between
children of light and children of darkness.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Like that cannot rhetoric.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I cannot believe that tweet. And I mean he deleted it,
but I mean the Internet is forever. I just can't
believe that was that is so normal for him to tweet,
just confidently at one point, just to say that out Loud.
I think that's absurd, and also just like to see
how Yoev Galant has been saying like human animals or
(08:33):
referring to Palestinians in such a dehumanizing way. You mentioned
something really important that I think I appreciated about how
maintaining the dehumanization of the Palestinians is vital to maintain
the white supremacist, imperialistic thing that is Israel. Can you
get into that a little bit?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, well, I think that was me trying. That came
out of me trying to understand why there was such
backlash when I, when I first years ago started recommending
people read Palestinian books. Is because when you read a
book by a Palestinian author, it is going to humanize
the Palestinian people for you, and that is incredibly threatening.
(09:14):
And Palestinian authors face a ton of discrimination within publishing.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, look at.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
What was it Earlier this week the Frankfurt Book Festival
polled or canceled a ceremony for a Palestinian author, Adania Shibley,
and then has made more time for Israeli voices and
Israeli specific panels at that book festival, and simply because
(09:43):
she's a Palestinian. She writes books dealing with real, factual
Palestinian history, and her books are critical of Israel. But
the silencing of Palestinian voices is a global project. It
is across all media industries. You see it in you know,
traditional book publishing as well as journalism. Another an author
(10:06):
friend of mine, hannein Ricott, has had the hardest time
she's been on sub with her book, and she's been
told by multiple editors to change the main character from
a Palestinian character to just a generic Arabic character because
being Palestinian is seen as inherently too controversial to publish.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, I read that. That's just I mean, again, not
completely surprised, but just so shameful that that is something
that is still happening in these modern times. I think
another thing to remember is a lot of people get
confused between the differences between being non white and white
in the scope of like this world. I guess it
(10:48):
just seems so obvious that colorism and racism both exist
in today's world. And I really liked what you mentioned
about the difference between colorism and racism. Can you talk
about that for a little bit.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yeah, Yeah, So I was explaining that in the Western media,
Israelis are treated as white and Palestinians are treated as
non white, and it really is regardless of the color
of your skin. So a lot of people giving me
pushback on that common say, oh, but there's black and
brown and white israelis yes, And in the racist apartheid
state that is Israel, people of different skin tones are
(11:23):
treated very differently. Within Israel, there was force sterilization of
African Jews immigrating to Israel. Well, when it comes to
the Western media, our view of the conflict is not
as nuanced as recognizing those differences. And so I was
explaining that colorism is discrimination based on the color of
(11:43):
your skin. Racism is a racial construct us about social, economic,
and legal discrimination. And while colorism is often used to
determine racism, that's not always one hundred percent the case.
And in the case of Israel, when you're talking abo
the Western media looking at Israel, they report on Israelis
(12:04):
as people, as people who are to be mourned, as
people are whose deaths are important, as people whose lives
are valuable, And they report on people in Gaza Palestinians,
as you know, human shields is the most sympathetic way
we hear.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Them talked about.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Their deaths are not deemed important. They are not humanized
within the media. If they're killed, they're either combatants or
they were a human shield, they were someone being used
by combatants, and their deaths are you know, maybe the
lip services paid to those debts being regrettable, but they're
seen as necessary and not not unconscionable in the way
(12:47):
that deaths in Israel are reported on.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, I think you bring a really good point about
the media and how important semantics are. I think something
that we've been seeing time and time again is how
deep the dehumanization goes. Like Israelis have been killed versus
Palestinians have died. The Gaza strip is being referred to.
I've seen it as an enclave. Oh my god, you know,
(13:11):
an enclave where terrorists lurk.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
So yeah, the words used to describe the city of Gaza,
the words used to describe people as combatants, the words like,
you know, Palestinians die in a clash when that clash
was racist Jewish settlers with machine guns coming after them,
you know. So yeah, yeah, Patay does a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It does, it does. I mean We've seen it just
recently with the hospital bombing. How the New York Times
changed their headline like three times from strike and then
to blast. I believe was what they landed on blast,
which I just find honestly comical when I really think
about it too hard.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Yeah, Elizabeth War came out and condemned clasts.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Like that is just so just the passive voice is
so dangerous because it it really off usecates the truth,
which is that Palestine people are dying of genocide. Even
calling it a war or a conflict does not do
what's happening justice because it still implies there are two
equal sides that are fighting against each other versus an
(14:25):
occupier and oppressor versus the occupied the oppressed. So I
think semantics are so important for us to keep in
mind even when we're talking about it with our peers,
to make sure that we talk about in the correct way,
because I feel like it unconsciously becomes ingrained in us,
even if we don't realize it when we keep talking
about certain things the way the media wants us to
(14:48):
talk about them as a conflict or as a clash
or whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And something else that I've really tuned into is really
being careful not to pit this as a struggle between
muscles and Jews. Any framing like that is both Islamophobic
and anti Semitic and incredibly inaccurate. This is about an
ethno state, a nation state and apartheid state, which is
Israel targeting it is captive population, and it is and
(15:18):
there are Palestinians who are of all different faiths who
are discriminated against because they are Palestinians within occupied Palestine.
So like, for example, it just came to my attention
that there are some in the I'm a book talker,
my book talk channels in books to gram is mostly
(15:40):
what I do is just, you know, share about books
for folks to read, and share.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
About the books I'm working on.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
And some of my fellow book talkers have been recommending
people read books by both Palestinian and Jewish authors so
they can show both sides. A Palestinian author, Hannahmushabak, just
wrote a great letter to sort of call in our
community and explain this is a this is very anti
semitic to conflate Judaism with Israel.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
The policies of Israel.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
You know, yesterday we saw five hundred Jewish activists get
arrested in the Capitol building here in DC in protests
and demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. So there are many,
many anti Zionist Jews. Judaism and Zionism are not the
same thing, but conflating them gives Israel more power and
(16:32):
gives it a stronger moral foothold to say, oh, we're
representing all Jews, not just this state. So that's something
also to be really careful about, is to not pit
this as a Muslim versus Jewish fight, because it's not.
It's about Israel, the state versus Palestinian people.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, that's vital to remember. Let's take our first break
right here, and we will beat right back and we
are back. You were just talking about how this is
(17:17):
just one percent not a religious issue, and I think
talking about semantics again. I framing it as a religious
issue is another way for people to stop talking about it,
to be too afraid to get into this complicated, ancient
battle of all times, archaic thing that we can't even
get into because we can't understand it. I think the
(17:37):
Zionist narrative wants us to believe it's about religion. So
people can ignore what's actually going on and be too
scared to speak out. It's like time and time again.
Something that I want to remind people is that it's
not Muslim versus Jewish, which is what it gets framed
by most of the time. But speaking of Zionism and
how it's not equated to the Jewish religion at all.
(17:59):
If anything, Zionism is anti Semitic in and of itself.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I believe that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
I believe Zionism makes all do so much more unsafe.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, it's it's also rooted in a lot of anti Semitism.
Even the way it was even the way the state
of Israel was created was Europeans being like, hey, Jews,
can you go here? It wasn't this gift to the
Jewish people. It was also about to be in Africa,
which I find fascinating. And also I think people always
forget the majority of Zionists in the United States are
(18:29):
Evangelical Christians. That is one percent accurate. That's why they
support Zionism, and it's because they want all the Jews
to go to Israel for the rapture to happen. It
is the most like comic book idea I've ever heard,
and everyone just goes along with it. Yeah, that brings
me to another thing he brought up in your videos
about needing a homeland. I think what you discussed is
(18:53):
really important because because of this narrative that a lot
of Zionists teach to Jewish people about how they're constantly
being perted, I think people are led to believe that
Israel is their safe haven, Like if all us fails,
I have Israel to go back to that as my home,
even like American Jews that have no connection to Israel. Really, why,
in your opinion, do the Jewish people not necessarily need
(19:17):
a homeland? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:19):
Well, I made that video speaking to like other leftists.
I was addressing other leftists. So I think if you
agree with me on the premise that everyone should have
a safe place to live and everyone should have equal rights,
which I think are two pretty pretty basic tenets of
being a leftist, then you just can't have anybody having
(19:43):
a theocratic ethno state, which is what Israel is de
fact I mean they say they're not, but that is
how they act.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And how that is how that country is run.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
And so you know a lot of people misinterpreted that videos,
as you know, try kind of try to argue with me, saying,
but there's other theocratic ethno states. But I'm saying, yeah,
if you're a leftist, you should think that's bad everywhere,
because a theocratic ethno state is an inherently fascist construct.
It's inherently saying one religion and or one ethnicity, in
(20:15):
the case of the way Israel interprets Judaism, these people
are more valuable and are more citizens here and have
more rights here than everybody else. And that is just
incompatible with leftist values, I think. And so the point
of that video is nobody should have a theocratic ethno state.
(20:37):
And this is a line that I've heard even some
leftist Jews saying, well, oh, we you know, this is
a complicated issue because Jews need a homeland. Well, I'm sorry,
our world is just two heterogenous, too diverse. You know,
migrations have been going on for tens of thousands of
years all over the place. There's no one plot of
land on Earth anymore that you can carve out and say, Okay,
(21:00):
just this one type of people are going to get
to live.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Here and be citizens here and have rights here.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Now I'm an anarchist personally, so I when I say
no theocratic ethno states, I'm also like in a bigger
picture way saying like no states would be the ideal
for me. But certainly theocratic ethno states are even worse
within that framework compared to like liberal democracies or something.
(21:31):
So yeah, that was a video that was like intended
to be an in group conversation, and then it got
a million views and got because my following has like
really exploded over the last week. So I wasn't expecting
it to go so far. And so for people who
(21:51):
idealize ethno states, like Japan or Sweden, they were really
having a hard time with me with me saying that,
and think it was really anti semitic for me to say, Oh,
I don't think Jews should have theocratic ethno state, but no,
I think nobody should have a theocratic ethno state.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
That's a really good point to make. It's I mean,
it goes back to the idea of Jewish suffering being
more valuable in some way than other suffering. I think
it continues this hierarchy of sorts and everything you described
about people not being treated the same and not having
enough rights. That's all apartheid. I think people forget like
Israel is committing the definition of apartheid and has been
(22:32):
against the Palestinian people, and I find it weird that.
I mean, Amy Schumer posted this crazy video proving in
her words that it's not an apartheid state actually and
how people have all the rights in the world when
in reality it's shameful.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, it's like the UN, Amnesty, International, Human Rights Watch
are all saying this is an apartheid state. But okay,
Amy Schumer, Yeah, it's it's not actually that complicated.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
It's really not. I've been really appreciating Amanda Seals. She
did like a reaction video to what Amy Schumer posted
and laid out all the racist reasons why actually apartheid
is what you would call that. I think something that
(23:27):
has bothered me within the both sides thing is this
is not a term that I hear often anymore. But
like the progressive except Palestine, I think that idea has
been really damaging because it makes it seem like you
can still be so liberal and progressive and still not
(23:47):
really recognize that Palestinians are being genocided for almost a century.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, and this is just so frustrating because again, what
you're seeing in Palestine, it's so stark, the violence is
so obvious, and it's so egregious. And there's all these
social justice you know, organizations and accounts that I followed.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
There's like queer Jewish.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Liberation accounts who have said nothing about Palestine. There's also
non jew its, just queer you know, all sorts of
queer liberation queer activists out there, which is like a
whole other network that I'm tapped in into, and many
of them are staying silent on this genocide. And it's
like we are all fighting the same evils, the same
(24:33):
type of oppression, and if you want people to stand
with you when your rights are being taken away, you
got to stand with everybody else.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
That's the only way.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Intersectionality is the only way that we can overcome these
enormous forces of oppression in the world. So, yeah, it's
it's been very frustrating to see just how many you know,
anti racist organizations, queer liberation organizations are just staying completely
silent on Palestine.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I have been really frustrated about that as well, because
it encourages this sort of selective outrage that is reserved
for certain kind of people that are deemed as human
versus the people that are not. I really believe one
of the most powerful voices in the fight for Palatine
liberation are Jewish anti Zionists because they can speak to
(25:25):
what people deem is the source of that problem from
a different place. But I hope you realize how important
your voice is just in general, especially now. And yeah,
I just really thank you for what you've been doing,
because it's kind of scary too. I'm sure to suddenly
have a big platform and have all these people analyzing
(25:46):
everything you're saying and trying to find little holes in
your arguments. But I appreciate that you're not backing down.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
I went from six thousand to one hundred eighty thousand
followers on Instagram in like a week.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I didn't realize that you started a six thousand. I
was wondering about that. That is a crazy jump.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, it happened really really fast.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
And on TikTok too, I had I had fifty thousand
on TikTok just from my book talk author talk account,
which I've been you know, growing over the course of
two years, and then it went.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Now it's like at one.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
Hundred and fifty thousand, so like tripled on TikTok. But yeah,
it's definitely made me more careful about what I say.
Like again, I had that one video that was sort
of like an in group comment to leftists because I'm
used to being on like the leftist side of TikTok,
and then realized, like, oh crap, like everything I say
(26:39):
is going to go out to like absolutely every single
kind of audience, So I need to like really think
about the context of what I say and.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That it Yeah, it's a it's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, I'm I mean, it sounds really overwhelming and even
navigating it well and I don't know, I really appreciate you.
Before we wrap this up, I would love for you
to talk about your work a little bit, maybe your
book where people can find it, where they can support
you in your work. The platform is all yours.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
So I actually had a book come out about a
month ago called The Free People's Village, and it is
relevant to this topic. It's a very leftist book. It's
about a punk band organizing to save their warehouse from
demolition to make room for a new electromatic magnetic hyperway
in an alternate timeline where al Gore won the two
thousand election and declared a war on climate change instead
(27:34):
of a war on terror. But it's a book that's
really critical of neoliberal politics. So this solar punk utopia
that's been created this world has really only impacted wealthy
white neighborhoods while leaving everybody else behind. So it's a
book about centering racial justice within climate organizing. And the
final scene of the book actually takes place at a
(27:55):
Free Palestine protest, and so that's definitely like a present
throughout the book, and based on experiences I've had organizing
with the incredible Students for Justice in Palestine and Palestini
youth movement organizers that we have here in Houston.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So for people who.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Are listeners of this podcast, I do think they would
enjoy the Free People's Village. And you can get it.
The best place to get it is always your local
indie bookstore. Of course, you can also support your local
indie bookstore by shopping at bookshop dot org, which allows
you all the convenience of ordering online, but you get
(28:34):
to pick your favorite indie bookstore to benefit. And then
of course you can get it also from all of
the big corporate retailers, and it's available in hardcover and
ebook and audiobook. And you can find me online at
sim Kern on TikTok and if you search simcar it's
(28:55):
at sim Bookstagram's badly on Instagram, but if you just
search sim Kernel, I'll pop up on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And that is s I N K E r N.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
For people that don't know, Yes, just.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
To leave us with something that we can take away
from this, do you have any advice for people that
are trying to open up these discussions with their peers
and how should they approach them? And I don't know.
I think these conversations are essential to humanizing Palestinians. Again,
so do you have any advice before we sign off?
Speaker 4 (29:31):
You know, same advice which was the first piece I gave,
which was just.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
To read a lot and learn.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
A lot and seek out those Palestinian voices. Also Jewish
Voice for Peace.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
If you go to.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Their JVP dot org website, they have a ton of
like great tools and kits for learning how to talk
about Palestine. And so I would say, you know, always
be learning and reading if you feel like you don't
have the language yet to have these conversations.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Like you said, it's really.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Powerful to repost things by commentators that you respect, journalists
on the ground in Gaza right now who are doing amazing,
courageous work. Just letting people know what is happening and
putting something out that disrupts an imperialist narrative can be
really really powerful.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Thank you for saying all of that, because it's really needed.
And I will put in the description all the info
to where you can follow sim and their work, and
maybe I can put some recommendations for Palestinian books as well.
And yeah, that's the episode. Thank you so much for
being here.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Thanks for having me Free Palestine.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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It Could Happen Here News
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Robert Evans
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