November 29, 2024 • 24 mins
Mia and Gare talk with Dr. Julia Serano, the author of Whipping Girl, about the forthcoming 3rd edition of the book and its wide ranging impact on how we think and talk about trans people.
Buy Whipping Girl: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/julia-serano/whipping-girl/9781541604520/
Original Air Date: 2.20.24
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media. Welcome to dick It app and here, a
podcast about things falling apart and putting it back together again.
I'm Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison, and it is my
singular honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano.
She is the author of many books, including Excluded, Making
(00:22):
Feminists and queer Movements More Inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society
Sexualizes Us and How we can Fight back, Outspoken, a
Decade of transgender Activism and Transfeminism, and most famously, Whipping Girl,
a new edition of which is coming out in March.
Doctor Serrano, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us.
So okay. Whipping Girl, I think is really the one
of quietly the most influential books of the twenty first century,
to the extent that in kind of classic trans woman fashion,
I don't think I don't think people realized that the
ideas that it introduced have an origin. So for people
(01:04):
who haven't read the book, and you should, this book
is great. I guarantee you have seen its influence. If
you've ever heard someone like who's not trans referred to
as sis, like that's that's from this book. The concept
of misgendering is also from this book. The word trans
misogyny like also from this book. And this I think
(01:26):
gets at something from the twenty fifteen second edition preface
that you wrote, which is something I've been wondering about,
is what is it like to sort of experience writing
a book and have it just like ripple across society
like this.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I was very much hoping and you know, as I
was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that
it would resonate with a lot of trans female and
transfeminine people, and I hope trans communities more generally, and
the book. This is something that a lot of times
people who pick up the book now and like the
twenty twenties don't necessarily realize, is that nobody was reading
(02:04):
anything about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ plus communities,
and so I was basically just speaking to those groups, and.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I thought it would resonate with some people.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
But yeah, definitely it kind of went out into the
world and did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't
necessarily expecting. And I'm very glad that the book has
kind of touched a lot of people's lives and changed,
you know, kind of societal understanding and quote unquote discourses
about trans people.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So yeah, it must be kind of bizarre, like being
twenty years ago writing about you know, a niche term
like sis and now the richest man in the world
thinks it's like the most evil word.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely
kind of clear this up, but I kind of make
this clear in the preface. So I didn't invet like
sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix that
has existed a long time. And I've since seen other
people like point out, oh, this person was using it
in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer like coined
(03:18):
cis vestism or something like back a million years ago.
So what I will say is that when I when
I put out the book, I was inspired by Emi Koyama,
who was and is an awesome activist intersex activists who's
written a lot of really influential trans related essays over
the years, And it was from her blog post that
(03:40):
was the first time I saw sis and trans and
the idea of cis sexism. And at the time it
was while I was writing the book, and it really
I was like, oh my god, this is kind of
the overall idea. I was talking about all these different
facets of basically double standards between trans and non trans people,
and so I kind of grabbed onto it, and I
was really worried about it actually because nobody, almost nobody
(04:03):
was using those terms. It was very niche at the time,
and so the book popularized that language. And so now
it is kind of funny every once in a while
seeing yes overreactions by SIS people to the idea of
of SIS being a slur or whatever. So yeah, and
so yeah, so that's definitely something that is kind of
(04:25):
is the one thing I one thing I did coin
in the book that has kind of also taken a
life on its own is trans misogyny. So that is
something that kind of originated with this book and particularly
a chap book that I wrote in two thousand and
five that some of those essays became chapters of the book.
And yeah, and so there are other ideas that kind
of are out there, Like I think it was one
(04:47):
of the first. I think it was the first book
to talk about like the idea of SIS privilege. I
misgendering is an idea was out there, but I kind
of dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah,
so they're definitely things I was doing at the time
that I didn't know whether they'd be to abstract or
how they'd be taken up, and so, yes, it's been
(05:08):
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because
I think it's become this word that just means not
saying someone's pronouns correctly, and I think that's, at the
very best, like an incredibly reductionist and simplified version of
the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess I
have two questions here. One can you briefly sort of
(05:30):
talk about what you were trying to get at when
you sort of did your analysis of the process of gendering?
And two, what do you think about the way that
it's kind of become flattened into this I don't know,
kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Sure, and a lot of the misgendering definitely dovetails with
the idea of passing, and a lot of my kind
of diving into it in a particular way I came
from critiques that I had other trans people had as well,
but I kind of you know, put them together in
a particularly in the Dismantling I think it's dismantling Sexual
(06:09):
Privileged chapter where I kind of go through all these
steps that lead to miss gendering, because I think people
talk about trans people passing and also the people will
talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever dominant majority group.
The term obviously had long been used with regards to
people of color passing as white and in kind of
(06:31):
white racist you know, us and other societies. So it's
an old term, and a big problem with it is
that it makes it sound like we're doing something active,
that trans people are actively trying to deceive other people,
with huge scare quotes around the word deceive. And I
really wanted to highlight to people that actually all of
(06:54):
us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every single person
we meet, or at least that's how we're socialized to be,
and you know, you can work towards getting, you know,
overcoming that, but I wanted to really highlight the fact
that we see people, we automatically gender them, and that
puts people who do not quite who your presumptions are
(07:19):
wrong about it puts us in difficult situations. It's a
double bind where do you reveal what you supposedly really
are or do you just allow people to read you
that way? And it works out very differently, for instance,
between trans and say CIS gay people, because when cis
gay people talk about passing as straight. Their passing is
(07:42):
something that they know that they are not. Whereas for
a lot of trans people, if people read me as
a woman and I understand myself to be a woman,
there's it's a very different dynamic because it's not like
I'm not hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm
really passing as is I'm passing assist and people are
assuming I'm this gender when the trans is the thing
(08:06):
that I might need to or feel like I need
to clear up, or other people might put pressure on
me to either tell them that I'm trans or be
accused of deceiving them. So that's a little bit of
kind of how I was approaching it when I started
working on that idea and really stressing the idea of
(08:27):
you can't understand miss gendering unless you understand that we
make assumptions all the time. We gender people very actively,
and you know, so trans people are often just reacting
to that and dealing with that double bind.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly
discussed in the book about like kind of this this
issue with some of the sort of prevailing gender theories
which thought of which think about sort of like Naitian
gender is pure performance. But you know, and this is
I think, like the argument that you were making that
(09:06):
I think is really interesting is that something that I
think is is very obvious to trans people is that
so much of gender is how people perceive you and
how you know and stuff that like you don't have
any control over. It's how people sort of gender you.
It's how people like construct a gender around you in
ways that you don't really have control over.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, and that was a big thing. So in kind
of I was writing the book in the mid two thousands,
and so the nineteen nineties is when Judith Butler publishes
Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders performance are
all genders drag, Yeah, but that is but that those
(09:49):
are like slogans or sound bites that other people took
from their book, right, and they were very popular at
the time. There's also there's a famous sociological article about
doing gender, and so people were very focused on the
way in which we create gender by doing it particular ways,
(10:11):
and a lot of the slogans within trans communities were
sort of like, oh, well, you know, I just have
to do my gender differently, like more transgressively, and that
will like tear down all of gender. And I felt
that there was you know, that is an aspect of things,
and most of us, whether trans or cists, most of
(10:31):
us have had the experience of maybe trying to.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Perform our genders in a particular way in.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Order to like, you know, not you know, in order
in order to get by in the world, in order
to not be harassed by other people.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So we've all had that experience.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So while that's true, there's the other partner of that dance,
and that's perception, and we're all perceiving people very actively,
and we're like projecting our ideas and meanings onto them.
And I felt like that was being under discussed at
the time, and that was not only a huge part
of Whipping Girl, but that's become a part of a
(11:12):
lot of my other books, like including my most recent book,
sext Up how society sexualizes us.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And how we can fight back.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
One way that I would describe that book is it's
talking about sex and sexuality not from what people do,
but from how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality,
because there are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really
horrible ideas, really hierarchical ideas.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
That are kind of built into the way we view
the world.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And interrogating that and so, yeah, that was a very
big part of both Women Girl and then my writings
since then.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, and I think I think that is something where
things have gotten better in terms of in terms of
how we think about gender, which I don't know, like
things aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things
a lot. Agreed, we're going to take an ad break
and when we come back, we're talking trans misogyny.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
We're back.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah. So another thing I wanted to sort of talk
about was I think, in like exactly the opposite process
that happened to misgendering, trans misogyny has become a lot
more expansive than your original sort of kind of narrow
conception of it. And I think this has been changing
(12:42):
a lot, especially in the last about half decade or so,
So I was wondering what you think about the way
that this concept has kind of taken on a life
of its own in recent years and what it's been
doing since.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So I feel like trans misogyny, that there are a
lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming, like
people coming from different perspectives with it, and some people
feeling like the word is doing things that I never
suggested it was doing. It's kind of hard to know
(13:15):
like where to actually come in on this, but for me,
when I was first writing about it, I was first
just noticing that a lot of the quote unquote transphobia
that I was facing when people know as a trans
woman was actually a lot of it was just misogyny,
and a lot of it targeted like kind of my
femininity rather than my transness, And so I wanted to
(13:42):
write about that, and kind of the way that I
framed it in the book was, which I think is
a really useful kind of model for thinking about it,
is that there most of the types of sexism that
feminists have described over the many years fall into two
sort of camps, one of them being oppositional sexism, which is.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
The idea that men and women are kind.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Of perfectly opposite, mutually exclusive sexes that have different interests
and attributes and desires, and so a lot of transphobia
and homophobia are kind of like built into this idea
that men and women are completely distinct. And then the
other one is traditional sexism, which is the idea that
femalis and femininity are less legitimate than malness and masculinity.
(14:29):
And a lot of CIS feminists have kind of viewed
all of that as just sexism, right, But when you
break it down like that, it makes it clear that
the double bind that a lot of feminists have talked
about is actually kind of these two different forms of sexism.
So if a CIS woman acts appropriately femininely, so appropriate
(14:52):
with scare quotes. If a SIS woman acts femininely, she'll
be seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because femininity
is dismissed in our culture, So that's the way that
she'll be delegitimized.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Whereas if she.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Acts in ways that are coded as masculine, and if
she acts assertive or aggressive, then people will malign her
for being kind of a barrant or deviant, right, and
so oppositional sexism helps keep traditional sexism in place because
you can say that malness and masculinity are superior, But
(15:27):
that only works if you can also make a clear
distinction between you know, those people and people are female
and feminine, and so I think this plays out differently.
And I want to be really clear about this because
some people have interpreted trans misogyny to mean that trans
mail and trans masculine people don't experience misogyny, which is
something I have never said. And obviously the fact that
(15:50):
oppositional sexism is a form of sexism, and obviously trans
maild transmasculine people experience that. But also depending upon on
how you're viewed by other people, I feel like the
same double pind that affects this woman affects transmeild trans
masculine people differently. Where there's this tendency, like in a
lot of anti trans discourses to dismiss trans masculine, especially
(16:17):
transmasculine youth as being merely girls quote unquote, who are
like you know, misled or seduced by gender ideology, right,
And there's a lot of real anti feminine and anti
misogynistic ideas in there. In addition to the fact that
it misgenders, transmeild, transmasculine people. And then if trans maild
(16:40):
trans masculine people, when they experience transphobia, there's often you know,
like they're seen as deviant for kind of breaking that role,
but often the malness or their masculinity themselves are not,
you know, denigrated in the same way, because being male,
(17:02):
being masculine are seen as good in our culture. It's
just that if you trans male, trans masculine, it's like, well,
you're quote unquote just a woman, so you can't do it.
So I think it plays out in this very complex
way for a lot of trans mail trans masculine people,
I think for trans female and transfeminine people, because our
(17:24):
crossing of oppositional sexism also involves us kind of moving
towards the female, towards the feminine, that there's kind of
those two forces intersect in a way so that it's
like exacerbated. And some of the ways I talk about
this in whomen Girl is that, well, we live in
a world where masculinity is seen as natural and femininity
(17:45):
is seen as artificial, and since trans people are also
seen as artificial compared to this gender people, a lot
of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore, the idea
that like women are seen as sex objects where men
aren't seen as sex objects, often are transitions or gender
transgressions towards a female towards a feminine are presumed to
(18:09):
be driven by sexual motives that can play out in
all sorts of ways. Whether this is the idea that
we're like hyper sexual or promiscuous, or that we want
to be sexualized by other people, or you can see
it a lot with the kind of the transgender predator
is often coded as like a man who either has
(18:29):
some kind of fetish or perversion or is just literally
deceiving people to get into women's restrooms to do something horrific.
So those are some of the ways that it plays out.
I feel that sometimes people view it in a cut
or dried way that either they'll assume that trans misogyny
means that transnal, trans massacine people don't experience misogyny, which
(18:53):
again is not what that's about. Or sometimes people will
try to make really clear distinctions. There's kind of language
like trans misogyny affected versus trans misogyny exempt. Are the
terms yeah, TME and TMA, which are not terms I've
used and which or that I didn't coin them.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
They're not in the book.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I think that when I first saw that language,
and I've seen people use it in a way that
appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so
it's a non identity based way. Sometimes this can play
out in a really cut or dried sort of.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Manner that.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
You know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended this way
or not, it can make it seem that, like, you know,
just boiling down a really complex experience, people's complex experiences
with different types of sexism into some people are privileged
and some people are marginalized, which I think is a
more general problem that happens kind of throughout all social
(20:00):
justice movements.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
So yeah, and trans people are not alien to having
complex experiences be boiled down to three and four letter.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Acronyms.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Did this in Twitter form, so it was like a thread,
so like now, people can't access threads unless you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple
of years ago.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
But one of the things that I talked about was
I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how
sis and trans is kind.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Of a useful.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Those are useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between
CIS and trans, and sometimes they can be used in
a way to talk about different double standards, like CIS
people are treated one way, TRANS people are treated another.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
But sometimes it can be used in like a.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Sort of reverse discourse way, where it's like, you know,
SIS people of all the privilege, TRANS people of none
of the privilege, and it can be used to kind
of create this strict dichotomy that ends up excluding and
invisibilizing some people's experiences. And I feel the same thing
is happening with TME and TMA. So I don't think
that those terms need to necessarily be like, I don't
(21:13):
think there's anything bad about those terms per se in
and of themselves, but I think sometimes they can be
used in ways. And part of why I reference this
this SYS and trans essay that I wrote many years ago.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It appears in my book Outspoken.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I forget the complete title right now, which is but
the reason why I bring that up is so sometimes
what happens is that when people learn about sexism CIS,
people might be like, oh, I face the sexism right
if I'm a woman and I don't shave my legs,
I'm facing s sexism, and so then trans people say, yeah,
(21:53):
but it kind of plays out differently for us, And
so sometimes in order to stop people from kind of
those claims, which I think it is true that you know,
a woman not shaving their legs, or if a man
decides to put on a dress one day, regardless of
whether they're sis.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Or trans, they could experience.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Says sexism or transphobia, But it plays out differently for
people who are actually members of that marginalized group. And
so then the marginalized group makes the distinction even sharper,
and it just kind of becomes this escalating situation where
the language and kind of battles over it become even
more intense. In a recent piece, one of the most
(22:35):
recent pieces, if you go to like my medium site
where my essays usually are now is it talks about
the trans mass versus trans discourse in terms of what
I call the cultural feminist doom loop, where the doom
loop refers to kind of these ideas where everyone like
(22:55):
both sides are trying to talk about the reason why
their experiences are legit, and then that seems as though
the other sides are not legitimate and then that kind
of cascades in a way that ends up not being
very productive but takes up a lot of energy on.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Places like Twitter.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, I think I think that's something We've still seen
about one trillion times variety of toxic ways. But what
isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping Girl
coming out in March with you can ask your local
bookstore to pre order now and Yeah, join us tomorrow
for our discussion with doctor Serrano of the Anatomy of
(23:37):
moral panics. This has when it could Happen Here, trans
people are great.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
One more podcasts from cool Zone Media visit our website
poolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen Here, updated in month
at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Also media. Welcome to dick It app and here, a
podcast about things falling apart and putting it back together again.
I'm Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison, and it is my
singular honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano.
She is the author of many books, including Excluded, Making
(00:22):
Feminists and queer Movements More Inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society
Sexualizes Us and How we can Fight back, Outspoken, a
Decade of transgender Activism and Transfeminism, and most famously, Whipping Girl,
a new edition of which is coming out in March.
Doctor Serrano, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us.
So okay. Whipping Girl, I think is really the one
of quietly the most influential books of the twenty first century,
to the extent that in kind of classic trans woman fashion,
I don't think I don't think people realized that the
ideas that it introduced have an origin. So for people
(01:04):
who haven't read the book, and you should, this book
is great. I guarantee you have seen its influence. If
you've ever heard someone like who's not trans referred to
as sis, like that's that's from this book. The concept
of misgendering is also from this book. The word trans
misogyny like also from this book. And this I think
(01:26):
gets at something from the twenty fifteen second edition preface
that you wrote, which is something I've been wondering about,
is what is it like to sort of experience writing
a book and have it just like ripple across society
like this.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I was very much hoping and you know, as I
was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that
it would resonate with a lot of trans female and
transfeminine people, and I hope trans communities more generally, and
the book. This is something that a lot of times
people who pick up the book now and like the
twenty twenties don't necessarily realize, is that nobody was reading
(02:04):
anything about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ plus communities,
and so I was basically just speaking to those groups, and.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I thought it would resonate with some people.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
But yeah, definitely it kind of went out into the
world and did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't
necessarily expecting. And I'm very glad that the book has
kind of touched a lot of people's lives and changed,
you know, kind of societal understanding and quote unquote discourses
about trans people.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
So yeah, it must be kind of bizarre, like being
twenty years ago writing about you know, a niche term
like sis and now the richest man in the world
thinks it's like the most evil word.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely
kind of clear this up, but I kind of make
this clear in the preface. So I didn't invet like
sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix that
has existed a long time. And I've since seen other
people like point out, oh, this person was using it
in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer like coined
(03:18):
cis vestism or something like back a million years ago.
So what I will say is that when I when
I put out the book, I was inspired by Emi Koyama,
who was and is an awesome activist intersex activists who's
written a lot of really influential trans related essays over
the years, And it was from her blog post that
(03:40):
was the first time I saw sis and trans and
the idea of cis sexism. And at the time it
was while I was writing the book, and it really
I was like, oh my god, this is kind of
the overall idea. I was talking about all these different
facets of basically double standards between trans and non trans people,
and so I kind of grabbed onto it, and I
was really worried about it actually because nobody, almost nobody
(04:03):
was using those terms. It was very niche at the time,
and so the book popularized that language. And so now
it is kind of funny every once in a while
seeing yes overreactions by SIS people to the idea of
of SIS being a slur or whatever. So yeah, and
so yeah, so that's definitely something that is kind of
(04:25):
is the one thing I one thing I did coin
in the book that has kind of also taken a
life on its own is trans misogyny. So that is
something that kind of originated with this book and particularly
a chap book that I wrote in two thousand and
five that some of those essays became chapters of the book.
And yeah, and so there are other ideas that kind
of are out there, Like I think it was one
(04:47):
of the first. I think it was the first book
to talk about like the idea of SIS privilege. I
misgendering is an idea was out there, but I kind
of dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah,
so they're definitely things I was doing at the time
that I didn't know whether they'd be to abstract or
how they'd be taken up, and so, yes, it's been
(05:08):
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because
I think it's become this word that just means not
saying someone's pronouns correctly, and I think that's, at the
very best, like an incredibly reductionist and simplified version of
the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess I
have two questions here. One can you briefly sort of
(05:30):
talk about what you were trying to get at when
you sort of did your analysis of the process of gendering?
And two, what do you think about the way that
it's kind of become flattened into this I don't know,
kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Sure, and a lot of the misgendering definitely dovetails with
the idea of passing, and a lot of my kind
of diving into it in a particular way I came
from critiques that I had other trans people had as well,
but I kind of you know, put them together in
a particularly in the Dismantling I think it's dismantling Sexual
(06:09):
Privileged chapter where I kind of go through all these
steps that lead to miss gendering, because I think people
talk about trans people passing and also the people will
talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever dominant majority group.
The term obviously had long been used with regards to
people of color passing as white and in kind of
(06:31):
white racist you know, us and other societies. So it's
an old term, and a big problem with it is
that it makes it sound like we're doing something active,
that trans people are actively trying to deceive other people,
with huge scare quotes around the word deceive. And I
really wanted to highlight to people that actually all of
(06:54):
us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every single person
we meet, or at least that's how we're socialized to be,
and you know, you can work towards getting, you know,
overcoming that, but I wanted to really highlight the fact
that we see people, we automatically gender them, and that
puts people who do not quite who your presumptions are
(07:19):
wrong about it puts us in difficult situations. It's a
double bind where do you reveal what you supposedly really
are or do you just allow people to read you
that way? And it works out very differently, for instance,
between trans and say CIS gay people, because when cis
gay people talk about passing as straight. Their passing is
(07:42):
something that they know that they are not. Whereas for
a lot of trans people, if people read me as
a woman and I understand myself to be a woman,
there's it's a very different dynamic because it's not like
I'm not hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm
really passing as is I'm passing assist and people are
assuming I'm this gender when the trans is the thing
(08:06):
that I might need to or feel like I need
to clear up, or other people might put pressure on
me to either tell them that I'm trans or be
accused of deceiving them. So that's a little bit of
kind of how I was approaching it when I started
working on that idea and really stressing the idea of
(08:27):
you can't understand miss gendering unless you understand that we
make assumptions all the time. We gender people very actively,
and you know, so trans people are often just reacting
to that and dealing with that double bind.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly
discussed in the book about like kind of this this
issue with some of the sort of prevailing gender theories
which thought of which think about sort of like Naitian
gender is pure performance. But you know, and this is
I think, like the argument that you were making that
(09:06):
I think is really interesting is that something that I
think is is very obvious to trans people is that
so much of gender is how people perceive you and
how you know and stuff that like you don't have
any control over. It's how people sort of gender you.
It's how people like construct a gender around you in
ways that you don't really have control over.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, and that was a big thing. So in kind
of I was writing the book in the mid two thousands,
and so the nineteen nineties is when Judith Butler publishes
Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders performance are
all genders drag, Yeah, but that is but that those
(09:49):
are like slogans or sound bites that other people took
from their book, right, and they were very popular at
the time. There's also there's a famous sociological article about
doing gender, and so people were very focused on the
way in which we create gender by doing it particular ways,
(10:11):
and a lot of the slogans within trans communities were
sort of like, oh, well, you know, I just have
to do my gender differently, like more transgressively, and that
will like tear down all of gender. And I felt
that there was you know, that is an aspect of things,
and most of us, whether trans or cists, most of
(10:31):
us have had the experience of maybe trying to.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Perform our genders in a particular way in.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Order to like, you know, not you know, in order
in order to get by in the world, in order
to not be harassed by other people.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So we've all had that experience.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
So while that's true, there's the other partner of that dance,
and that's perception, and we're all perceiving people very actively,
and we're like projecting our ideas and meanings onto them.
And I felt like that was being under discussed at
the time, and that was not only a huge part
of Whipping Girl, but that's become a part of a
(11:12):
lot of my other books, like including my most recent book,
sext Up how society sexualizes us.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And how we can fight back.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
One way that I would describe that book is it's
talking about sex and sexuality not from what people do,
but from how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality,
because there are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really
horrible ideas, really hierarchical ideas.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
That are kind of built into the way we view
the world.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
And interrogating that and so, yeah, that was a very
big part of both Women Girl and then my writings
since then.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, and I think I think that is something where
things have gotten better in terms of in terms of
how we think about gender, which I don't know, like
things aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things
a lot. Agreed, we're going to take an ad break
and when we come back, we're talking trans misogyny.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
We're back.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah. So another thing I wanted to sort of talk
about was I think, in like exactly the opposite process
that happened to misgendering, trans misogyny has become a lot
more expansive than your original sort of kind of narrow
conception of it. And I think this has been changing
(12:42):
a lot, especially in the last about half decade or so,
So I was wondering what you think about the way
that this concept has kind of taken on a life
of its own in recent years and what it's been
doing since.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So I feel like trans misogyny, that there are a
lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming, like
people coming from different perspectives with it, and some people
feeling like the word is doing things that I never
suggested it was doing. It's kind of hard to know
(13:15):
like where to actually come in on this, but for me,
when I was first writing about it, I was first
just noticing that a lot of the quote unquote transphobia
that I was facing when people know as a trans
woman was actually a lot of it was just misogyny,
and a lot of it targeted like kind of my
femininity rather than my transness, And so I wanted to
(13:42):
write about that, and kind of the way that I
framed it in the book was, which I think is
a really useful kind of model for thinking about it,
is that there most of the types of sexism that
feminists have described over the many years fall into two
sort of camps, one of them being oppositional sexism, which is.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
The idea that men and women are kind.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Of perfectly opposite, mutually exclusive sexes that have different interests
and attributes and desires, and so a lot of transphobia
and homophobia are kind of like built into this idea
that men and women are completely distinct. And then the
other one is traditional sexism, which is the idea that
femalis and femininity are less legitimate than malness and masculinity.
(14:29):
And a lot of CIS feminists have kind of viewed
all of that as just sexism, right, But when you
break it down like that, it makes it clear that
the double bind that a lot of feminists have talked
about is actually kind of these two different forms of sexism.
So if a CIS woman acts appropriately femininely, so appropriate
(14:52):
with scare quotes. If a SIS woman acts femininely, she'll
be seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because femininity
is dismissed in our culture, So that's the way that
she'll be delegitimized.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Whereas if she.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Acts in ways that are coded as masculine, and if
she acts assertive or aggressive, then people will malign her
for being kind of a barrant or deviant, right, and
so oppositional sexism helps keep traditional sexism in place because
you can say that malness and masculinity are superior, But
(15:27):
that only works if you can also make a clear
distinction between you know, those people and people are female
and feminine, and so I think this plays out differently.
And I want to be really clear about this because
some people have interpreted trans misogyny to mean that trans
mail and trans masculine people don't experience misogyny, which is
something I have never said. And obviously the fact that
(15:50):
oppositional sexism is a form of sexism, and obviously trans
maild transmasculine people experience that. But also depending upon on
how you're viewed by other people, I feel like the
same double pind that affects this woman affects transmeild trans
masculine people differently. Where there's this tendency, like in a
lot of anti trans discourses to dismiss trans masculine, especially
(16:17):
transmasculine youth as being merely girls quote unquote, who are
like you know, misled or seduced by gender ideology, right,
And there's a lot of real anti feminine and anti
misogynistic ideas in there. In addition to the fact that
it misgenders, transmeild, transmasculine people. And then if trans maild
(16:40):
trans masculine people, when they experience transphobia, there's often you know,
like they're seen as deviant for kind of breaking that role,
but often the malness or their masculinity themselves are not,
you know, denigrated in the same way, because being male,
(17:02):
being masculine are seen as good in our culture. It's
just that if you trans male, trans masculine, it's like, well,
you're quote unquote just a woman, so you can't do it.
So I think it plays out in this very complex
way for a lot of trans mail trans masculine people,
I think for trans female and transfeminine people, because our
(17:24):
crossing of oppositional sexism also involves us kind of moving
towards the female, towards the feminine, that there's kind of
those two forces intersect in a way so that it's
like exacerbated. And some of the ways I talk about
this in whomen Girl is that, well, we live in
a world where masculinity is seen as natural and femininity
(17:45):
is seen as artificial, and since trans people are also
seen as artificial compared to this gender people, a lot
of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore, the idea
that like women are seen as sex objects where men
aren't seen as sex objects, often are transitions or gender
transgressions towards a female towards a feminine are presumed to
(18:09):
be driven by sexual motives that can play out in
all sorts of ways. Whether this is the idea that
we're like hyper sexual or promiscuous, or that we want
to be sexualized by other people, or you can see
it a lot with the kind of the transgender predator
is often coded as like a man who either has
(18:29):
some kind of fetish or perversion or is just literally
deceiving people to get into women's restrooms to do something horrific.
So those are some of the ways that it plays out.
I feel that sometimes people view it in a cut
or dried way that either they'll assume that trans misogyny
means that transnal, trans massacine people don't experience misogyny, which
(18:53):
again is not what that's about. Or sometimes people will
try to make really clear distinctions. There's kind of language
like trans misogyny affected versus trans misogyny exempt. Are the
terms yeah, TME and TMA, which are not terms I've
used and which or that I didn't coin them.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
They're not in the book.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I think that when I first saw that language,
and I've seen people use it in a way that
appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so
it's a non identity based way. Sometimes this can play
out in a really cut or dried sort of.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Manner that.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
You know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended this way
or not, it can make it seem that, like, you know,
just boiling down a really complex experience, people's complex experiences
with different types of sexism into some people are privileged
and some people are marginalized, which I think is a
more general problem that happens kind of throughout all social
(20:00):
justice movements.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
So yeah, and trans people are not alien to having
complex experiences be boiled down to three and four letter.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Acronyms.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Did this in Twitter form, so it was like a thread,
so like now, people can't access threads unless you.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple
of years ago.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
But one of the things that I talked about was
I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how
sis and trans is kind.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Of a useful.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Those are useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between
CIS and trans, and sometimes they can be used in
a way to talk about different double standards, like CIS
people are treated one way, TRANS people are treated another.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
But sometimes it can be used in like a.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Sort of reverse discourse way, where it's like, you know,
SIS people of all the privilege, TRANS people of none
of the privilege, and it can be used to kind
of create this strict dichotomy that ends up excluding and
invisibilizing some people's experiences. And I feel the same thing
is happening with TME and TMA. So I don't think
that those terms need to necessarily be like, I don't
(21:13):
think there's anything bad about those terms per se in
and of themselves, but I think sometimes they can be
used in ways. And part of why I reference this
this SYS and trans essay that I wrote many years ago.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It appears in my book Outspoken.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I forget the complete title right now, which is but
the reason why I bring that up is so sometimes
what happens is that when people learn about sexism CIS,
people might be like, oh, I face the sexism right
if I'm a woman and I don't shave my legs,
I'm facing s sexism, and so then trans people say, yeah,
(21:53):
but it kind of plays out differently for us, And
so sometimes in order to stop people from kind of
those claims, which I think it is true that you know,
a woman not shaving their legs, or if a man
decides to put on a dress one day, regardless of
whether they're sis.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Or trans, they could experience.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Says sexism or transphobia, But it plays out differently for
people who are actually members of that marginalized group. And
so then the marginalized group makes the distinction even sharper,
and it just kind of becomes this escalating situation where
the language and kind of battles over it become even
more intense. In a recent piece, one of the most
(22:35):
recent pieces, if you go to like my medium site
where my essays usually are now is it talks about
the trans mass versus trans discourse in terms of what
I call the cultural feminist doom loop, where the doom
loop refers to kind of these ideas where everyone like
(22:55):
both sides are trying to talk about the reason why
their experiences are legit, and then that seems as though
the other sides are not legitimate and then that kind
of cascades in a way that ends up not being
very productive but takes up a lot of energy on.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Places like Twitter.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, I think I think that's something We've still seen
about one trillion times variety of toxic ways. But what
isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping Girl
coming out in March with you can ask your local
bookstore to pre order now and Yeah, join us tomorrow
for our discussion with doctor Serrano of the Anatomy of
(23:37):
moral panics. This has when it could Happen Here, trans
people are great.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
One more podcasts from cool Zone Media visit our website
poolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen Here, updated in month
at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
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