Dr. Maung Zarni on Myanmar’s Colonial Past and Post Colonial Future

James talks to Dr Maung Zarni about the junta’s colonial methods of rule, ultra nationalist Buddhism, and how to build a better future for a democratic Myanmar.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
All the media.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It to be
James today, and I'm joined by Dr mau Zani, who's
an activist and scholar with thirty five years of experience
advocating against genocide and for freedom and Burma and one
of the founding members of the anarchist activist platform Forces
of Renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to the show, doctor Zigney.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
A pleasure to have you here. So and also I
should mention Nobel Peace Prize nominee as of as yesterday
or the day before the congratulations on that also.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, thanks so much. It happened in January, before the deadline.
And so I just released the announcement, you know for
the Burmese New Year you know occasion, because yes, you know,
the country has been torn apart by you know, armed revolutions, genocide,

(00:59):
the racism, anti Muslim violence, and so thought like this
may be a tiny sliver or positive thing. And so
if activists want to have, you know, there's some sustenance
for their grassroots revolution, here's somebody who's who has been

(01:22):
grassroots for thirty five years. So that's why I released it,
but that's you know, the secondary anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, I know, it's if it can get the world
to look at what's happening and pay attention, then I
think it's a good thing. So one thing I wanted
to ask you about today to start off with, is
something that when I talk to people in the US
and the UK about the revolution and the cure in Meamba,
the context of like ultranationalists Buddhism is one that is

(01:53):
very hard, I think for people who don't have a
great understanding of how that works to understand. So I
was wondering if we could start off with you explaining
like this, this long and painful history of like ultra
nationalist Buddhism in Myanmar and how it's empowered the genocide
of Muslim people and also the hunter Today.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, when we talk about you know, ultra nationalism or
various strengths of nationalism, I think we need to periodize
or put in different historical periods because you know, the
term nationalism was a progressive, emancipatory, ideological umbrella when the

(02:44):
local society or primarily Buddhist and also other people, but
the majority political systems were built on the foundation of
Buddhism in Burma, you know, like different king But when
when we were under the British for one hundred and

(03:05):
twenty four years the war, you know internally warring Buddhist kingdoms,
you know, like Rakine and Morn and Burmese and Sean,
they all at Buddhist kingdoms, and they formed this oppositional

(03:26):
ideological identity as you know, nationalists Buddhists that would confront
the alien colonial British rule. So in that sense, you know,
nationalism was not a bad thing at all because it
was you know, primarily for emancipatory struggle. But then like

(03:49):
you know, then fast forward post colonial independence period nineteen
forty eight onward. Right when when the British rule was
removed at the end of the Second World War three
years after the the oppositional Buddhist nationalists, you know, umbrella

(04:11):
identity collapse, right, So Rakines want to full ground their
ethnic city given that the main oppositional commonality, the colonial colonialism,
was no more. And so that's when the you know,
ethnicity was reinjected, you know, into the ideological formation. And

(04:38):
and interestingly, as you would know as well, the end
of the Second World War was followed by the Cold
War right. And on the one hand, like you've got
you know, godless communists, atheistic Russia, a Soviet Union and
in China. And then on the other hand, you know, uh,

(05:00):
essentially Christian West, you know, or at least allegedly Christian West.
And in that context, the alternationalism was essentially encouraged by
the by the United States and allies. You know, like

(05:20):
if you that this is nothing new. If you look
at the rights of like a socialist governments across the
Middle East, you know, primarily Muslim Middle East, you would
find like the rights of Muslim brotherhood and you know
what we call today fundamentalist Islamicist, right, but you know,

(05:42):
the Buddhists with at no centric orientation, we're encouraged you know,
by the United States through grants and aid. The same
way like you know, the right of you know, fundamentalist
is Islam was encouraged or or Midwifi with the US money.

(06:06):
Because the see that this is important because through the
eyes of the Coal war strategiest the only way that
egalitarian leftist ideologies could be confronted was through this the
faith based ideology. So I don't want I'm not saying

(06:32):
that the Burmese nationalists and also nationalists were not responsible
for their own growth. But I also what I'm saying
is that there was a larger global context in which
this monster was hatched. Yes, and and and so, but

(06:53):
even you know, like the going back to the nineteen thirties,
after the Wall Street collapse, you know, then, like you know,
the the recession pervaded across the world, and colonial economies
like Burma with massive agric cultural explorer economy, the British
founded expedient to basically turn to a religious divide and rule.

(07:21):
And like you know, the Burmese Buddhist laboring classes were
pitted against the Indian laboring classes of different religions, but
that was more like the Buddhist nationalists and non nationalists
versus you know, like what we were called today migrant
laborers from India, you know, under the because when we

(07:44):
were part of British Empire. After the British left, the
Muslims began to be scapegoaded. Uh. And then finally, I think,
like the we cannot understands, as you know very well,
the nationalists or alternationalism without some kind of political organization,

(08:05):
and that organization is what we call Burmese political or state,
whether it's controlled by the civilian elected politicians or the
military military as an organization. Political state's always there, whether

(08:26):
it's you know, fascism in Nazi Germany or Italy or
Japan or like you know, the genocidal Mimma about fifteen
years ago. State was the engine. Actually, it's not the
people that were generating this toxic ideology. It was the

(08:46):
state that was inventing, manipulating and mobilizing towards their sinister end.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Right yeah. And it's the divide and rules strategy and
the full I guess the falling back to these kind
of colonial methods of rule is something that I guess
I want people to understand is still happening in Burma
or Myanmar.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
We see the military that the junta doing it right now,
right like attempting to ferment inter ethnic conflicts to prevent
the formation of a popular front or a coalition against
against their rule.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Right, Yes, I think the here the one observation I
want to make is, you know, independence from Britain, a
restoration of say, like you know, modern form of a
sovereignty to Burmese people was not a clean break from

(09:46):
the colonial past, because the state in Burma as it
exists or it has existed over the last seventy plus years,
remains colonial state. It was an instrument of economic exploitation

(10:06):
or racialized or ethnicized administration. And all the security laws
and you know, ordinances and whatnot, they were formulated with
the interest of the ruling colonial interests or power like

(10:27):
at the time British and what the what independence did
was really transfer of this internally racialized entity we call
state from the white men's hand to the brawn men's hand,
you know, the Burmese. So when you the state wasn't

(10:52):
actually finding it difficult to foment racial or inter we
don't use it term race here, like inter ethnic conflict
or inter religious conflict. The state itself embodied this divide
and rule outlook because it remains internally colonial, you see

(11:15):
what I mean. And so so I think that it
isn't simply the policies of the you know, X y
Z regimes that have rude Burma since independence, but the
state itself is conducive to or you know, supportive of

(11:36):
this kind of inter religious and inter ethnic contest because
there there are no principles of equality as as ethnic
or religious communities or there there there was no sense
of you know, horizontal or vertical fairness among the political

(12:01):
class and the majoritarian agrarian communities, and so the state
isself problematic. Yeah, that's why, like you know, when al
san Suci came to you know, semi power, because the
military is still controlled or backseat drove for a regime,
she found it really difficult to maneuver because she was

(12:25):
straight jacketed in this you know internally colonial shell. Yeah. Yeah,
and then so so think of course, like you know,
you're it's correct what the military is doing now, say
in Racine State where they committed genocide against Rhinia Muslims.
You know, they drove out, you know, close to eight

(12:47):
hundred thousand raw hingers of genocidally across the border to
Bangladesh in two thoyd and seventeen and also sixteen. They
are now and training and you know forcively conscripting able
body young Rhinjia men into their ranks and to fight

(13:11):
the progressively militarily stronger kind Buddhist Ara army. That's just
one area. But you know, if you look at other
regions like shun Stay for instance, there's extremely complex ethnic
contestations happening, right, So what like political scientists call like

(13:32):
a horizontal violence is taking place, and so it's like
there are multiple conflicts at work, you know. But of course,
like the military is number one, you know, problem maker,
but there are also lesser evil forms of like political

(13:53):
and ethnic conflicts taking place.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I think, yeah, very much against shan states. I
think particularly complicated and interesting as we look at the
situation now in the different like both in the liberated
areas or the areas without control of the like NAPI
or state that they may still be controlled kind of
in a sense by other kind of like pseudo states.

(14:29):
I guess, are you familiar with this? There's this argument.
I think it's probably like articulated. I'm sure you are articulated,
most notably by James C. Scott of like and he
looks at the example of me and MA has been
rightly criticized in some areas of like the mountains as
an area where people can I guess, choose to opt

(14:52):
out of the state or to be like where the
state is not completely consolidated, I guess, and never has been.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
Ye. I know, I know Jim's work, you know, like
the the he divides people into valleys and uh, you
know mountains. You know what's interesting is like you know,
it's it's it's a lot more complex than this, you know,
the the dualistic understanding of like hill people versus plain people,

(15:20):
because you know, like even in the in the hills
that there are you know, highlands and and and there
are plateaus and you know the you know and so.
But also I think like that I find it more
useful to look at this not through geographic lens, but

(15:40):
through the colonial lens, because you've got the colonial state,
because like you know, Jim is essentially anti statist. But
as a matter of value, yeah, I I I I
am with him, you know, because I'm bent on u
the anarchism as my value, you know. But analytically, I think,
but given the fact that the colonial state continues to

(16:06):
live on and continue to haunt the Burmese society, I think,
like the way I look at it is like you know,
center and perifheree, right, irrespective of the altitude. I mean,
at this point, like altitudes no longer really strategically important

(16:28):
because you know, we're we live in the age of drones,
and like you know, MiG twenty nine and f sixteen
mountains are no longer cover you see what I mean, right.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, Yeah, the construct of the mountains as like nonstate
space or a place where you can go to choose
to be nonstate. I think like it's interesting to hear
young Bama PDFs fighters now be like, oh, I chose
to go to the mountains, even though it sits very
much alongside that can only analysis that you had of

(17:01):
like the wild people or like quote unquote savagery, right,
which or when I speak to Bama people who are
like twenty one now who joined the PDFs eighteen seventeen
after the coup, they had all been very much indoctrinenty
with the idea of non Bamar people as quote savage
as or wild people who lived in the quote mountains

(17:23):
or jungles, and like choosing to go there to escape
the state. I think it's really interesting to hear like
that analysis reproduced in their storytelling of their own lives.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah. I mean, I think you know that it has
been in the Burmese political psyche. You move away from
the center and you are more autonomous and you are
you know, freer from the right. You know, the reach
of the center, right, because we still have this center

(18:01):
peripheree mentality. Yeah, I mean, you know, culturally, yes, you're
absolutely right. Uh, the the way people in the center,
like the group that I belong to, Burmese Buddhist majority,
we look down on people that are on the peripheree, right,
that the way people dress. I mean it's also like
you know, the rural and urban divide as well, you know,

(18:24):
the even like those who grew up in the in
the non majoritarians, you know regions that you know what
I call that the peripheys of the Burmese colonial state.
When they settle in Rangoon or Mandale or or you
know major urban areas, Uh, they they begin to dress.

(18:44):
They they begin to I mean, they necessarily adapt to
the the the Burmese way of life, the majority dominant
you know, customs and whatnot, and so so I still
stick with the you know this whole colonial relations the
organizationally and psychologically. The Yeah, I mean also like that

(19:10):
we have the vocabulary if you want to oppose a
central state or the central regime, we say we take
refuge in the forest, right, and we take refuge in
the forest or under the tree against the scorching sun
or like pouring monsoon rain right or the evil center right,

(19:34):
and so so it's all built in. It's in the
language even you know, like organizing an armed revolt or
going underground is described as taking refuge in the forest
the jungle, you know, and and and what's what's interesting though,
is like you know, from the state's perspective, if you're

(19:56):
taking refuge in the in the jungle, of course, like
that's treason us and you know that is uh an
act of criminality. But if you if you use that language,
or if you if you do exactly the same thing
literally physically, if you're a Buddhist monk, you know, you

(20:19):
you are considered holier than monks that continue to live
in the city, you know what I mean. So you go,
you know, the forest monks versus like a city town
or village monk. Right. So this is quite a fascinating
linguistic you know twist here on one hand, like you know,

(20:42):
but from the revolutionaries perspective, if you're in the jungle,
you grow certain aura around you. You're in the jungle, right,
and you don't you don't wear genes or you don't
look like city people. But you're worrying, you know, like
the fatigue, army fatigue and you know, jungle, the paraphernalia.

(21:09):
And as a revolutionary that's like, you know, that's I
check with our time, you know what I mean. Revolutions
start or organize around jungles, you know, I mean, so
it has nothing to do with altitude, you see what
I mean?

Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah. I like that periphery
colonial model. So I wonder, like, I think people who
listen to this will both be very much like amenable

(21:44):
to anarchism and see the problems that state societies create,
and also to the revolution in Memma and to the
young people, and then not to young people who are
fighting it. I wonder like, how do we build a
future for me that doesn't replicate this colonial corporaphery model,
that doesn't the scene quannon of the state that's centered

(22:06):
in Napidor is like the it's this use of violence
to control and this colonial relationship, right, So how do
we not replicate that in the post revolution future?

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Well, I think you know, there's a danger in what
should I say, the romanticizing the mini states or substates.
Right if establishing autonomous states does not confront the colonial

(22:38):
nature of the state from which these meaning states you know,
emerge as oppositional entities. In other words, whatever administrative structures
that you know, the the the current armed revolutionary organizations

(22:59):
set up, they need to first make sure they don't
replicate that the internally colonial nature of the state that
they have been fighting and to some degree of like
success at this point in history, right, because the coloniality

(23:23):
is very much connected with the idea of pure ethnic identity,
you see what I mean, Yeah, and in this day
and age, I mean you know whether I mean you've
been to current state and other places in Burma and
and you know in the Middle East at Curtis and so.
But they're they're they're always like, you know, the idea

(23:44):
of pure ethnic identity, right, even if you're a revolutionary
But but but the truth, the truth is, you know,
even small places you will find Muslims and Hindus and
Christians or people with different migratory histories and class background.
You flettened them into a single ethnic identity, right that well,

(24:08):
that that that in and I mean self perception, we
are a new Kurrent state or Karany state or Kachin state, right,
even Kachin the late the term label the label Katchin
in the north. You know, they have about like the
three or four major groups there and and some resent

(24:29):
being referred to as Kirtchin, but they go along because
they are against the more evil central Burmese Buddhist state,
right right, so so so so so that's why when
I when I explain to you, you know, at the
outset of this the conversation, this like your Buddhist identities
merged as an oppositional umbrella, anti colonial identity against the

(24:56):
British when that common oppressors has gone home, and then
we start fighting each other, you know what I mean.
So number one is like, you know, that is very
very important. These new entities do not define their political
organizations along any idea of like you know, blood and soil. Yeah,

(25:20):
and that's very very important. Otherwise we we we replicate
what we fought against. Right. And secondly, I think no
military organizations should control administrations. But at the moment, you know,
with the exception of the Grand National Union, most other

(25:44):
ethnically organized armed resistance organizations and Burma, when they set
up administrations, you know, administrators are guys who are you know,
like carrying like AK forty seven or some of the weapons.
You see what I mean, because like what they need
to do is as soon as like that they have

(26:06):
secure any like an ancestral region, what they need to
do is they need to separate law and order maintenance
from the defense. Yeah, And the reason we have gotten
into this bloody mess is because the military did not

(26:27):
separate law and order administration as a civilian function function
from the national defense. So the current progressively militarily successful
ethnic resistance organizations have to demilitarize self consciously and as

(26:50):
a matter of policy their new administrations. So these two things,
you know, move away from blood and soil idea year
of identity and demilitarized and civilianized the administration.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, do you have hope? Like I find when I
talk to especially younger people in the PDF, who are
most people, ma, like, maybe it's easier for them to
see the obviously colonial relationship and the way that these
constructs have harmed them and prevented them from finding solidarity

(27:27):
with people of other ethnic groups. That's something that like
sometimes they will articulate to me, right that like, you know,
we were told these people were bad and evil and
savage and they're not and there are allies in this
fight against dictatorship. Do you think that that's replicated in
the in the leadership of eros, like that that idea
that this blood and soil nationalism has been this blood

(27:51):
soil identity, I should say, is something that's like big,
problematic and devisive and will always be so, or like
do you not see that applicated so much?

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Well, there is still you know, the old conservative orientations
in these ros with respect to two things, the acceptance
of you know, younger generations into policy making circles, right,

(28:24):
And then the other one is the half of the
population of these ethnic communities have remained marginalized. That is
war men, if you you know, I mean, on one hand,
it does make sense that you know, men with guns
and men with like you know, the fifty years of
revolutionary experience are going to play leading role. But these

(28:50):
guys have to make us conscious effort in changing their
own value system, which is like, you know, bring in
new generations with more progressive ideas into policy making circle
leadership circle, and bring in women. And you know, I

(29:13):
wish I understand I know more about the Kurdish revolutionary organizations.
My own very limited understanding is that you know, gender equality,
I mean, for the for the islam orphobic crowd, it
might be quite shocking, But the Kurdish revolutionary organizations are
you know, much more gender equal. Yeah then like you

(29:38):
know white democratic societies.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, that's right. And I think their analysis, if I
can sort of summarize like appost thought very is that
colonialism begins in the patriarchal family, and that the first
colonized subject is to the women. And therefore, if we
can't decolonize our familia and community relations, we have little
hope of deconalizing ourselves as a group or as a society.

(30:03):
So they're analysis rest in the same place as yours does.
And I think that there's I think increased solidarity and
communication between the Kurdish freedom movement and the resistance movements
in mem which I hope can only do good for that. Like,
especially with regard to gender relations, it was interesting to
see the Kereni K and DF Battalian five issued a

(30:26):
statement which said that like they had a long way
to go in terms of gender relations, and they looked
to the Kurdish model of example of where they can
get to, which at least it gives me hope that
these things can get better.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah. I mean KNDF is a remarkable you know organization,
Karr natural defense organization, right, Karenny Keranny. I mean they
are led by very progressive sort of like you know,
the semi anarchist type young people. Yeah, you know, the

(31:00):
city and gender discrimination are self consciously avoided and discouraged. Yeah.
So so basically other we we cannot we cannot have
a successful revolutionary movement, you know, just by trying to

(31:20):
you know, take power from the center. You know, there
has to be you know, it's an rebellion. It's different
from a revolutionary movement. Revolutionary movement involves a shifting fundamentally
the non progressive values and outlooks. Right. That that is
what something that needs to happen, and that that, in

(31:43):
my view, uh is a deeply you know, intellectual psychological process.
But I think I think like the the that is happening,
you know, and so the so that that that ideological
progressive shift is it is going to hit the ceiling

(32:09):
at some point because you've got old men in a
decision making positions who are not who haven't bought in
entirely the need to shift their value system. And then
partially it's not simply ideological, it's also self interest. When

(32:31):
you're when you're the when you're the boss for twenty
five years, you know, you're a little like autocredit tyrant,
you know what I mean. Organization, So shifting the you know,
giving women and younger generation spaces me you know, you
shutting up fifty percent of the time and letting the

(32:53):
other you know, people speak fifty percent, you know, like
they're they're no no more like monologue for one, you
see what I mean. So even like you know, the airtime,
you have less airtime, that's like you're less. That's your
self interest your airtime, you know, let alone economic and
other interests. This is just like talking in the in

(33:17):
in a meeting, you see what I mean. I've been
through like some of some of the meetings and stuff,
and so you know, like guys think that only they
have important things to say, you know, especially military matters
or big items. Okay, like women talk about welfare of
children and you know widows kind of shit.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, yeah, this very sort of still like separate spheres
gender model that I know. Yeah, I have hope for
the young generation, but I remember one of the guys
I met, he told me that, like he said, he said,
like three years ago, I had some gender problems and
I didn't understand what he meant, and he was like,

(33:57):
I thought that women could do things that men could do,
and now I realized I was wrong. And they were
telling me that the police wouldn't there there was a
taboo to walk underneath a woman's lunch. Yes, so yeah,
so they hung them around their protest camps when they
were in Yangon fighting the police, and that the police
wouldn't come in, so that they were like, oh, this

(34:18):
is when I realized that sexism hurts everyone. So I
think it's yeah, we I have hope for that generation.
I think it's It's been one of the things that
has given me so much hope for the world in
general as I've been covering the revolution in the Amma,
is to see people reconstruct and change their identities in

(34:39):
a progressive and inclusive way and people, you know, people
in this countries and the UK as well, are so
stuck in their sort of regressive identities, and to see
young people there acknowledged that sexism, homophobia, these these racist
and inter ethnic like hierarchies are damaging everyone has. It's

(34:59):
given me a great deal of hope for the future.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah. I share your optimism. And part of it is,
you know, the progressives or people or younger people or
like older people with progressive outlooks. I mean, everything is constructed,
you know, like if you change the material situation in
terms of you know who's making decisions or you know

(35:25):
under what conditions decisions are made. I think like people
are able to shift their thinking, you see what I mean.
I mean, And so I think like that, but definitely
that political leadership is very important, you know. I mean
I don't I don't believe in this like a van

(35:46):
Goddess idea of like a group of men, uh you know,
you know, guiding guiding the herd. Right. But at the
same time, I think like these older men should meet
the younger generations halfway. Yeah, And I'm not saying like okay,
all right, you know, like you know, like, don't trust

(36:08):
anyone above forty because I'm six years I just don't
want to be trusted. And but yeah, I mean, I'm
sixty and I can take shit from eighteen year old
junior friend or colleague who tell me you're full of shit.
And here's the reason I listen, right, So I assume,

(36:28):
like other people my age, my generation, will be able
to do the adjustment right and especially for the better
and the But I think that there are really articulate
young people and women, yes, whose voices need to come

(36:49):
to the full, like you know, like people the people
be I mean, like, we don't live in isolation anymore,
like in the nineteen sixties and seventies and eighties, Burma
was very isolated, and so you know, and so the
ideological currents do not reach within the Burmese society, so

(37:10):
that the type of religions or religions I mean Christianity,
the type of Christian practices outlook whatnot remain like extremely
conservative compared with like you know, even like a conservative
like Christian country like US A uh and uh. But now,

(37:31):
like you know, with we live in the social media
internet age, and so you know, young people you know
use the term like intersectionality, you s. I mean they
start to see like race, class, gender and other issues
you know, like inter intersecting and then producing or reproducing
or ending like different forms of uh you know, repression

(37:55):
and you know, exploitation and whatnot. We still have a
very very long way to go. We can't shift. But
that's not not to say that you know, we shall
feel like discouraged, but we we We won't see instant changes.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
No, yeah, but I think over time, Yeah, I have
an deal of a great deal of optimism for the
future of me Emma, Doctor Sanny. It's it's been really
great talking. Where can people, especially people who are interested
in your work and in the future of Memma, how
how can they follow along with your work and with
these struggles to create a more equal and just in

(38:39):
democratic in the non state sense Burma.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
I mean one. I mean I use social media, especially
like you know, Facebook a lot. And I began like
consciously writing in Burmese language because I don't need to
inform the world, because the world knows the ship that's
going on in Burma. And and so I think the

(39:03):
uh my, Facebook's okay. But if people read like English
or even like you know, other languages, you know, our
own mother tongue. Uh. The the Forces of Renewal Southeast
Asia four c dot com CEO. It's a good platform
we encourage and actually we seek out uh you know,

(39:27):
very radical ideas in multiple languages. Burmese or or Chin
or Karani or whatever language they want to use. We
don't censor anyone. They can say anything as long as
they're not advocating fascist them or violence or like, you know,
things like that. And so yeah, I encourage to take

(39:50):
a glanset our you know, Southeast Asia Network of Anarchistic
Activists and Scholars.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, it's a great website and clear a link to
it in the description. Thank you so much for your
time this evening. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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