It Could Happen Here Weekly 145

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool media.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but
you can make your own decisions, all right.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
This is the last night of the DNC episode or
reporting from our homes now, which is great because I
feel like death. Garrison Davis is here, I'm Sophie Lichterman,
Robert Evans is here.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
We more or less survived the DNZ. SOPHI took a
few hits there at the end. So the DNC is over,
it's wrapped up, it's all finished, Thank goodness. Tiring in
a very different way than the RNC, and I mean
obviously a very different demographic. And this is something that
I noticed just as soon as they got to the air,
Like when I got to the gate for the RNC,
it was like, oh, I'm here for the RNC, And

(01:05):
when I got to the gate for the DNC, it
was Oh, this is just a regular airport gate.

Speaker 5 (01:09):
This is just normal people.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
There's a very broad demographic that you know, pretty fairly
would represent whatever city you happen to come from. And
in calling these people normal, that's not saying they're necessarily
good people, but they're normal people. Sure, they're into politics,
maybe a little bit more than your average person, but
by and large they are kind of regular people and
including shitty in a lot of the ways that regular

(01:32):
people are shitty about politics, whether that be their views
on Palestine, Gaza, queer people. But it's a pretty pretty
normal demographic base.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, it's the difference between like when something I showed
up at our gate for the RNC, we took off
our masks because the threat at that point was being
on a mask surrounded by Republicans, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Right, Yeah, it was like the risk to our lives
was greater than the risk of COVID.

Speaker 6 (02:02):
To our lives safe few eyes, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Whereas we just kind of treated the flights to and
from the DNC like normal flights, like like you'd handle
the normal precautions just regular people.

Speaker 6 (02:14):
Some of that has to do with the fact that
Chicago's like a much larger city.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah, sure, but yes.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
But I mean I got into the conversation with a
delegate from Georgia who was sitting right next to me,
you know, young guy, mid twenties. Very clearly everyone on
the plane was going to the DNC, at least for me,
And yeah, I mean you just had like a regular conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Was it little John?

Speaker 5 (02:35):
No, no, Sophie, it was not okay, cool?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
So if he little John as a senior citizen, now it's.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Little John, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
But no, he was this this young, kind of nominally
progressive democrat who is excited. This is I think, I
think his first time going excited to vote for Kamala
and much more excited about her than Joe. He also
just finished his college program to get a criminal justice degree,
so it's like, yeah, this is this.

Speaker 5 (02:58):
Is who the democratic area.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Yeah, random, kind of kind of queer, but definitely sis dude,
like I said, gay dude, bisexual, whatever, but yeah, it's
gonna reform, reform that criminal justice from the inside. Yeah, anyway,
kind of I just wanted to descry about talking with
this kind of those kind of general convention demographics because
that's basically the same.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
It felt well inside the convention as well.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yes, a lot more. What I will say is a
lot more women who are like middle aged at the
d NC, like that was the overwhelmingly most common demographic
on like at the convention that I noticed.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
And probably more racial diversity than a lot of than
a lot of cities probably Honestly, Yeah, I guess that's
a good general sign, but it's not a great sign
just in and of itself, right, I guess it's it's
good for kind of the general future of this country,
but it doesn't it doesn't really affect many of the
biggest problems that were kind of addressing, whether that be

(04:03):
you know, gazo that, whether that be police brutality, whether
that be all all of these other things, LGBTQ issues,
the economy, right, like that does not necessarily equal over
onto any of those, at least at the DNC. But
you know that is that is a general trend that
that that the country is heading towards.

Speaker 7 (04:20):
It seems.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
So there you go, and my god, was there a
lot of people there was.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
There was such an unhinged amount of people, like I
can't even.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
It was so much bigger and so much more crowded
than the d r n C.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
I set this online when right wingers were trying to
be like there was nobody there, which was like, you're
you're so dumb.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
It was vastly more crowded, but like.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
At the R and C, most of the time, we
generally had an entire road to ourselves.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yeah, it was always easy to find seating, super eased
to find a spot to sit any time during the
R and C. Not true for the DNC, very challenging
to find a seat. And this kind of brings us
to the last day of the convention, horrible.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
The three of us wrap up.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
A very nice dinner with mister Vermin supreme lovely, possibly
the most ethical presidential candidate this year.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
The only presidential candidate who has been maced with a
member of the cool Zone media team. We can say
that much.

Speaker 4 (05:17):
Yeah, so we have a great to dinner with them.
We walked over to the DNC, massive massive lines coming outside, terrible,
and then we get told it's okay, there's a special
press entry, so we bypass all those lines. We are
feeling great, We are feeling like gods, just passing by
hundreds and hundreds of people waiting waiting line to get

(05:38):
in the DNC. It was a very powerful feeling. I've
never felt that empowered before.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh Garrison, oh you sweet summer child.

Speaker 5 (05:45):
It was wonderful.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
It was really a rush that can't be described.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, I almost didn't want to let you guys know
that the whole venue is at capacity.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
So we get up to the door after just breezing through,
going past all of those lines, and we get to
the door and all.

Speaker 5 (06:02):
The doors are shut.

Speaker 4 (06:03):
Yeah, their secret service at every entrance saying that nobody
can get in because the venue.

Speaker 5 (06:09):
Is at capacity.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
And the crash, oh my god, the crash that we
had from our high so so bad.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I talked to a couple of police officers outside the
venue who were like, yeah, the fire marshals are here,
like's it was literally I do think that it from
and from everything I've read since, I think their reboarding
was accurate. Yes, Like there were just more people than
were allowed to be in the building.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
They definitely let more people in than they should have. Yeah, However,
there was a group of journalists with Garrison and myself
that were waiting to be let in, and there was
like triple the amount of people to journalists that left
in the time that we were standing there, which was
a very long time. And let me just say, the
Secret Service officer really enjoyed telling a bunch of journalists

(06:57):
that we couldn't come in. He was having a g night,
ruining our night.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I mean, there's nothing that makes me happier than making
a journalist miserable. So I actually do feel some solidarity there.
You know, I would love to tell a bunch of
journalists fuck you.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
I was certainly skeptical because of just how many people
were getting let out, because I really wanted to see
how full the venue actually was. And after waiting for
nearly for two hours, two hours.

Speaker 6 (07:22):
Two hours, two hours, I went home.

Speaker 5 (07:24):
Pablo's speech already started.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
I abandoned you, and then some media logistics person from
the Secret Service entrance every five minutes would point at
ten people like they were the chosen ones to let them.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Into the arena.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
And on round three or four, Gary and I did,
in fact get in and run up like seven or
eight flights of stairs, which I'm still feeling.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
You made the cut. You made the cut.

Speaker 7 (07:49):
We did.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
I bet Tim Walls whispered your very names into the
ears of that Secret Service agent.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Although I do feel like a piece of me is
still on those stairs because it was brutal.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
It was bad.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
And then we got up to kind of the floor
of the arena that we usually entered into and they
were not lying. It was way too full. There was
not a single seat available. People were standing in the
fire exits, people were standing on the stairs and the
hallways inside the actual arena. It was, in fact a
real safety hazard.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, I do really feel the need to emphasize not
one of those things where the cops were fucking over
the press or whatever for their own It was a
serious issue.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
No, we saw, We saw firefighters inspecting the hallways and
letting a whole bunch of fire code violations fly. Yeah,
we were not supposed to be standing in the middle
of tent stairwell. And yeah, we got inside just in
time for the foreign policy, border patrol, and geopolitics section

(08:49):
of Kamalis's speech. And we will talk about her speech,
including those aspects, right after we come back from this
ad break.

Speaker 5 (09:06):
All right.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
The final speech of the DNC arguably the most important one,
Although the DNC just went on for so long that
I was so checked out by that last day.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Honestly, it was just Bill Clinton's nine hour speech where
he just was just the oldest man who's ever lived.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
No, he's convinced me. You know, I watched last night
several episodes of the show about him committing a sex
crime as the president, and it really reminded me. Boy
slick Willy's gotten old.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, thank you for music. My dad's nickname for Bill
Clinton on Mike Click Willy.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
That's every dad's nickname for Bill Clinton.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
My dad loves to call him that. Anyways, Garrison, we
got up there. We are standing in a crowd of
journalists just trying to get a glimpse of what's going on.
And is there any particular part of the speech you
want to talk about, because there's a few things that
come to mind for me.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
I mean, yeah, I have notes on like the whole speech,
just you know, a few lines from each little section.
And I think this speech was more important than most
of Trump's speeches, because we've heard Trump speak, you know,
a bajillion times.

Speaker 8 (10:12):
Now.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
I will say Trump's R and C speech was important
because this was his first speech after getting shot at
in the head. And similarly, I think this speech for
Kamlo was extremely important because this is basically her second
presidential speech. The speech she's been using for her campaign
trail has been the same stump speech for the past month.
It's been the same one delivered many times, which is

(10:34):
not a regular But this is the first time we've
really heard her do a new speech, and this is
her introduction as a presidential candidate to the entire world.
As she took the stage, there's obviously tons of cheers
chants of usay. She opened by praising Biden's record and
his character, saying that that history will will prove him
to have such a great record and character. And then

(10:58):
she framed her own personal story as like a template
of like the American journey, right, saying, quote, I'm no
stranger to unlikely journeys unquote.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
She talked about her mother as an immigrant, saying her
parents met at a civil rights gathering and then her
dad taught her to be fearless, although her dad also,
I guess probably failed to teach her how to be
a good Marxist, but she did not bring that part
up in this speech.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Complicated relationship, but we all get to have one.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yes, But her parents taught her and her sister about,
you know, different different civil rights leaders, including civil rights
lawyers that fought civil rights in court, and Kamala said,
this is what inspired her to go to law school.
Although you know, very famously, she did not become like
a civil rights lawyer.

Speaker 5 (11:42):
She became a prosecutor.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
And Kamala said that this was inspired by her high
school best friend getting molested by her stepfather and that's
what got her to want to go down the prosecutor path.

Speaker 6 (11:54):
That was the first time that I had ever heard
her talk about that.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, I hadn't heard that either.

Speaker 5 (11:59):
She literally did a few other times, obviously not on
that large of a stage.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
Yes, no, No, There was a lot of talk about that,
and a lot of talk about her focus on like
familial sexual abuse, molestation and other sex crimes as a prosecutor,
like basically framing that as like her specialty, and that
was a good part of what she focused on, which
he was a courtan prosecutor.

Speaker 5 (12:22):
The line that she.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Used to refer to her work in the court was
that quote, everyone has a right to safety, dignity, and justice.
So that was kind of the introduction to Kamala and
her background. That was like who she was, where she
came from. And then the speech pivoted to talking about
orange Man Bad, which worked very well in twenty twenty,
and I think we're going to see more of that.
The closer we get to the election.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
One way or the other is the last time you're
gonna get to make hay out of it, and so
you might as well do that while the sunshine.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Yes, honestly, that was the general theme of the DNC
speeches for me, was like orange.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Man bad, we got one last shot.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
We can be good for you, be good with us,
We're good orange Man back.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
It's even less that they want to be elected to
make any actual progressive change. It's that in order to
do that in the future, we first need to beat
Donald Trump. And that was kind of the guiding the
guiding principle of most of the DNC and commalist speech.
She called this election a fight for America's future.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
It's infuriating that, like we deal with this again right
where we have to like sit down and knock the
Republicans out and end a chunk of the conservative ideology
in this country because literally nothing can progress without doing that,
and we still can't handle the more fundamental problems. But
you know, that's the way it is.

Speaker 4 (13:47):
Yeah, And she talked a lot about voting rights, saying
that Trump tried to throw away your vote and when
that didn't work, he directed an armed mob to the
capital to overthrow the election. She talked about how Trump
wants to deploy the military against protests, although she said
he wanted to play the military against quote our own citizens,
but this was in reference to him wanting to deploy
the military against protests. And she framed the Supreme Court's

(14:10):
new ruling to give president's immunity in court from criminal
prosecution as imagining Trump but now without any guard rails,
which of course is very scary. And part of this
is Project twenty twenty five again trying to reiterate this
as the Republican's playbook in case Trump is able to
get back into office. Mentions of Project twenty twenty five

(14:30):
starting a series of we are not going back chance,
which I think is probably some of the best messaging
the Democrats have the opertion of deploying this go around.
I know there was an upper Democratic strategist who has
been meeting with the Kamala team who said that this
messaging doesn't work because it's too vague and too negative
and not enough focused on the future, and thankfully the Democrats,

(14:53):
or at least Kamala's team, did not listen to that guy,
because that is the most wrong a man has ever been.
This messaging has been played very well in person at
all these rallies, and especially at the DNC. Kama talked
a little bit about economics, saying, quote, we are charting
a future towards a strong and growing middle class unquote,
and quote, we will build an opportunity economy where everyone

(15:15):
has a chance to compete and a chance to succeed unquote,
which I guess is fine.

Speaker 5 (15:20):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (15:20):
I have a few kind of issues with this, mainly
like what happens when you don't succeed and what happens
to the lower class. Throughout the entirety of the DNC,
there's been a lot of talk about growing a strong
middle class and a big focus on the middle class,
but very little focused on actually helping the people that
are having it the hardest in this country instead really
really catering to like the middle class voter. And I

(15:44):
don't know, it's it's like there's a lot of talk
about labor. There's a lot talking about like working people,
like workers' rights, that stuff all has a pretty big
spotlight at the DNC this year, but very little mentions
of how we can actually improve life for the lower class.

Speaker 5 (15:57):
She did talk about, you know.

Speaker 4 (15:59):
Very vague gestures towards lowering the cost of everyday needs,
but so far she's kind of yet to unveil any
actual solid policies. Really we have that first time home
buyers like twenty five K.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, she's proposed some details on like how to help
increase the number of first time home buyers and build
an additional like three million homes in the United States,
Like there's been some but it is all kind of
vague at this point.

Speaker 8 (16:24):
Now.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
One thing that they do have going for them is
when the dim say, like we're going to cut inflation.
You know, we've seen inflation drop from the post pandemic
highs over the last couple of years to the point
where it's at now, so like that is that, you know,
there's a leg to stand on there. And in general,
I actually think one of the better economic points was
made by Clinton during his speech, which is that, like

(16:45):
the vast majority of jobs that have been created over
all of our lifetimes have been created under democratic presidents,
and you know if you can't, if like that's your
voting issue. The polls are also moving in the direction
of that. People seem to be trusting Kamala more on
the economy. Yan, they trusted Biden even though there's not

(17:05):
really a perfectly logical reason to do that. But this
is elections aren't about logic, right, Like.

Speaker 5 (17:11):
No, They're about vibes.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
They're about vibes in a lot of ways. They're about vibes.
And I do think the dims. I think the dims
have that actually, like the good headwinds on and now
a lot can change in the next seventy days or so.
What I really saw with this speech and with this
convention as a whole, was the Democratic Party embracing the
middle and some conservatives. And yeah, they tried not to

(17:37):
be too directly abrasive to progressives and the left.

Speaker 5 (17:42):
But they weren't catering to them.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
But they were not catering to it.

Speaker 8 (17:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
Kamala did attack Trump on taxes, specifically saying that trumpill
do tax breaks to his billionaire friends, it'll add a
five trillion too the national debt, and she called Trump's
tariff proposal basically a national sales tax, or a Trump
tax that will raise costs for middle class families by
up to four thousand dollars a year, which is in
line with the whole bunch of economists' predictions if Trump's

(18:08):
tariffs do go through, and then again gesturing to kind
of vague policy ideas without actually proposing strict policies, saying
that quote, we will provide access to capital for entrepreneurs,
small business owners, and founders, warning that Trump will ban
abortion pills and enact in national abortion ban and force
the states to report on people's abortions and miscarriages, and

(18:30):
instead of common will sign into law a bill that
protects abortion access nationally, as well as calling to pass
the John Lewis Voting Rights Act and the Freedom to
Vote Act, and more kind of vague gestures towards protecting
the freedom to love who you love, to have clean
air and clean water, and the freedom that unlocks all others,
the freedom to vote. So that's kind of the most

(18:52):
of the domestic policy section of the speech, and that
is the part of the speech that we missed. And
then we came in right started talking about the border,
saying again that, like many others have talked about the
DNC how the Democrats and Republicans worked together to write
the strongest border bill in decades, and Kamala said that
this bill was endorsed by the Border Patrol which it wasn't.

(19:13):
It was endorsed by the Border Patrol.

Speaker 5 (19:15):
Union, but who cares.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
And Kamma talked about how Trump called Republicans to kill
the bill so that Democrats couldn't take credit, and she
promised that she will bring back this bill and sign
it into law, saying that, quote, we can create an
earned pathway to citizenship and.

Speaker 5 (19:32):
Secure our border unquote.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
So again, this is one of the areas that Democrats
I think have lost the most amount of ground on
the past like eight years, and they are still kind
of willing to seed it. And then in terms of
like geopolitics and foreign policy, one line of kammalist that
has kind of cotton some flak, but also I don't know,

(19:54):
I'll just read it, we can talk about it. She
said that quote, I will ensure America always has the
strong I guess to most lethal fighting force in the world.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Yeah, so did you guys, what did you think by
the use of that language.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
I think she was trying to appeal to the voters
that don't think a woman can lead.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
That's the end of my sentence.

Speaker 5 (20:20):
Agreed.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Oh interesting, I feel very differently.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
I found this as being a reaction to right wing
and centrist attacks kind of questioning her strength as a leader. Yea,
So she went for very very like intense language on this.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
So I feel very differently about that. And I think
this may be just due to the fact that I've
kind of some more experience with how people in the
NATSK space speak, because the phrasing that she used, it's
been lampooned a lot online. We've all had a couple
of some bits about, you know, talking about I don't
want a lethal the most lethal military in the world.

(20:54):
I want this or that, but like that's what the
military does. No, no, Well, lethality is also a meme term, right,
Like that's the way it is used in this space.
Like if you go to like speeches where people who
are involved in any level as contractors in the military
industrial complex making arms working for like, it is all

(21:17):
about when they're talking about like improving efficiency within the
air Force, it's about lethality, right, we are increasing lethality,
Like that is our goal. That's what we're doing here today,
because that is the measure by which you determine the
success of the organization. So what I saw Harris as
doing by using that specific terminology was not I am

(21:38):
trying to talk extra hard in order to burnish my
credentials because conservatives are going to attack me. It was
Trump is actually kind of weak on the national security stuff,
especially within the community of people who are like Natsek
gools Yeah, right, within people who are members who have
are born and raised members like my family, a lot

(22:00):
of them, of the military industrial complex, the people who
have their professions in that space, right, they actually don't
all like Trump a lot. And some evidence of that
was recently he made some statements where he essentially insulted
Medal of Honor recipients that like the VFW came out
and attacked Trump, which is wild, like absolutely unpaced.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I do think it's a little bit.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
I definitely agree with you, Robert, but I do think
it's a little bit of what gar and I were
talking about as well. An another thing that I'm just
thinking of, as Robert saying that, is just how often
Trump has said that, you know, the war, the war
in Ukraine wouldn't happen if he was in office, that
like he putn't scared of him and things like that,
as like one of his main reasons why we should

(22:42):
re elect him is because he commands authority and nobody
did anything bad when he was in power. And I
think a lot of that has to do with Kamala's
language choice.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
I mean, it's it's she said what she said because
it was a way of expressing like.

Speaker 4 (23:02):
Like an internal signifier to other people in the NAT
sock space.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

Speaker 5 (23:07):
It was a way of saying that I am not
just I'm not an outsider.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
I am a professional. I understand and speak about this
the same way that you guys do.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, No, I can I can see that.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
You know, the whole speech I kind of saw in
those terms. It was very much calculated. I could see
who they were trying to get with that speech. There
was a bit in there for everybody, uh, and they
were trying to get kind of those moderate chunks of
every group, including moderate chunks of the people whose like
primary issue is gaza, right, because there is a chunk
of the people who's who are are mostly concerned to

(23:39):
this election with what the fuck we're going to do
about Gaza. But also are not you know, hardline communists
or whatever? You know, are people who like the uncommitted folks,
really want to embrace the Democratic Party, and are maybe.

Speaker 5 (23:52):
People who still believe in the system want to just.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
Need a little bit of a lie that they can
go along with to vote right, Like Kamala was attempting
to kind of give because she didn't announce a substantive
change in policy. No, her verbiage on Gaza in this
speech was the same as the kind of stuff that
like Obama was saying, honestly, like ten years ago.

Speaker 6 (24:13):
Sure, Gary, do you have a quote of what she said? Yeah,
let's talk about it. But first let's head to our
last ad.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Break real quick.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
All right, let's talk about her closing remarks relating on
foreign policy and Palestine. I guess there's a few other
kind of general foreign policy things. Yeah, saying that under
her watch, quote, we will lead the world into the
future on space and artificial intelligence, America, not China will
win the competition for the twenty first century unquote. She
framed Trump as an ally of Russia and Putin, and

(24:51):
she claimed that she will help us quote stand strong
with Ukraine and our NATO allies. And then finally, one
of the last things she talked about was Israel Palestine, saying, quote,
President Bien and I are working around the clock. Now
is the time to get a hostage deal done and
a ceasefire deal done. This had a decent sized cheer.

(25:12):
She followed this up by saying, quote, we will always
stand for Israel's right to defend itself and ensure Israel
has the ability to defend itself unquote. And I think
this signals mostly to people that it's unlikely she will
adopt anything resembling an arms embargo, And there was a
lot of internal pressure from the uncommitted folks, people who
got into the DNC trying to push on this topic,

(25:35):
specifically because Democrats are now kind of adopted kind of
vague ceasefire rhetoric. Now, the goalpost does need to be
shifted towards something that will actually stop the bombing of
families inside Gaza, and that is an arms embargo, some
kind of conditions on the way that bombs and weapons
are going to be used. And I think this line

(25:56):
signified that that is probably not going to take place,
at least before the election.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
No, definitely, not before the election.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Wait, that's very clear at this point.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
And she kind of both sides this issue. Yeah, Her
last quote was quote, what has happened in Gaza over
the past ten months is devastating. So many innocent lives lost, desperate,
hungry people fleeing for safety. Why over and over again,
the scale of suffering is heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Whom is making them do this?

Speaker 4 (26:24):
President Biden and I are working to end this war
such that Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the
suffering in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can realize
their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self determination.

Speaker 5 (26:40):
Unquote. And this was.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Followed by what I would call the biggest cheers of
the entire night.

Speaker 9 (26:45):
Yeah, I was.

Speaker 6 (26:45):
I was about to say the crowd reaction was massive to.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
That people lost it so much, bigger cheers than saying
we will ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself.
This closing line about dignity, security, freedom, and self determination
for the Palestinian people gotten by far the biggest years.

Speaker 5 (27:01):
And but like, what does it mean? Like what are
you actually saying?

Speaker 1 (27:04):
It means nothing?

Speaker 2 (27:05):
I mean, what all of that means to me? Is
that like Democrats because they are normal people, they're not Republicans.
They know how bad all this is. They hate it.

Speaker 5 (27:15):
They are mad at at and Yahoo.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
You only really need to see a couple of war
crime videos to know that, like what happened is happening
over there is ghastly. They also aren't willing to like
nuke their lives and a lot of other people's lives
to let Trump back in, right.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
And I do believe they genuinely view Israel as an
extremely important ally in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, and they think that this could be fixed, right
because like we did some awful stuff in Iraq, but
then we elected Bobama and everything got better, right or
something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
No, I mean like they don't like Netan Yahoo, the
batting admin doesn't like that Yahoo because he's not efficient
at war. He's efficient at doing like like an ethnic cleansing,
he's efficient at doing wide civilian casualties, but he's not
gonna actually like fighting this war very well. This is
something that like Biden's team has consistently not been thrilled by,
but they're not gonna do much about it. Kind of

(28:08):
the last foreign policy line that she had was quote,
I will never hesitate to take whatever action is necessary
to defend our forces and our interests against Iran and
Iran backed terrorists, and will not cozy up to tyrants
and dictators like Kim Jong un who are rooting for
Trump unquote. And I think basically this ties into a

(28:30):
whole bunch of rhetoric that I've seen throughout the DNC,
including from speakers, speakers who are either vets or active military,
that seems to be kind of slowly preparing the Democratic
Party for another war, for some kind of on the
ground activity in the Middle East, whether that be in Lebanon,
whether that be in Iran.

Speaker 5 (28:48):
It's like they're slowly just.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Prepping us for the possibility of war or invasion.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
Oh, that does seem likely.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
This is a big part of like the Democratic Party's
official like policy platform on Phalesteine, which they did release
during the DNC, and a big part of that is
about is talking about how important Israel is as a
Middle East ally.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Where will we fly our planes over.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
If they ever need to put troops on the ground.
And I think that is so much of why they're
unwilling to budge on anything resembling like an actual ceasefire
or an arms embargo. Is because they view this as
like a real possibility. Anyway, that was that was this speech.
The balloons dropped. Everyone lost their minds. Yep, it's not
a cult in the same way.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
But there's there's you can see one building.

Speaker 4 (29:34):
Maybe the party is a cult, but it's not a
Kamala cult the same way the GOP is now a
Trump cult, right, like the Republicans are now a Trump cult.

Speaker 10 (29:41):
It is.

Speaker 4 (29:42):
It is not a cult of like who is the
leader in the DNC, but it is more of a
cult of like ideology, which I guess the Republicans just
don't even have anymore.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
It's not even that it's it's a cult of I
think I would describe it as defensive cult making. Democrats
have been so bewildered and frightened by the momentum that
and his people have had over the last decade, and
they have like responded in part by adapting some aspects
of like the cultic milieu to wrap around these ideas

(30:12):
that like are safe to them like that. That's a
big part of the appeal of that don't go back
champ right, which I think is a smart bit of
politics and I think actually it has the potential to
save quite a bit of lives, particularly at least of
like queer trans people in the United States. So I'm
not saying this is bad politics, but there is a

(30:32):
level of cultiness to that where you are kind of
enrapturing people with this possibility of constant forward motion that
we all know doesn't feel as true as it felt
in twenties fifteen or fourteen, you know, it doesn't feel
as possible as it felt in twenty twelve or two

(30:52):
thousand and eight. That they're kind of trying to sell
people on if we can just get over the hurdle
of these Republicans, right, we can get back to the
period where like things felt like we were all moving
in the right direction, and that's magical thinking, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:08):
We can get back to a period of steady progress.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
I try to be even about this because as I
wrote that episode, the fucking don't panic episode, because I
was looking at people's talking on Reddit and Twitter and
just in real life and being like, I think some
folks might kill themselves soon, yeah, out of fear of
the Republicans. So I really hope no one reads what
I'm saying is like, ah, these stupid libs and their

(31:33):
hope fetish It's like no, no, no, but it's still
a cultic belief. It's not rational. It may be necessary
sometimes irrational beliefs are necessary, sure, but there's not a
good reason for it yet. And don't fall too far.
Like fall, try not to fall further down that hole.
Then you need to fall in order to keep yourself

(31:54):
alive for the next eight months.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
So, even though Trump has spoke a lot the past
eight years, his speech at the ER and C I
think was important because it was the first one post assassination.
His viewership for that speech peaked at twenty eight point
four million. Viewership for Kamala's speech Thursday night peaked at
twenty eight point nine million. So she edged him out

(32:21):
just barely, at least in terms of peak numbers, by
about five hundred thousand views.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Very even, very even, yeah.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
Very even.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
And again like Kama's not spoken tons, there's a lot
of people of tuning in to see what she sounds like,
kind of for the first time on a big national platform.
And meanwhile, I think people are just briefly tuning into
Trump just to see what he's like after getting shot
in the head. And I will read a few of
Trump's tweets of.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Well, he's not doing well. He's not doing well at all?

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Man, was he spiraling? Oh my god?

Speaker 5 (32:51):
From Kamala's speech? He just started by all caps, is
she talking about me?

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Excellent, incredible stuff, Donald, buddy, I can tell you're slipping
because four years ago, if you'd tried to tweet that out,
you wouldn't have had to hear it from someone. There
would have been a voice in your own head before
you pressin that would have been like, don't do that, Donnie,
come on, Donnie, come on, come on, You're better than.

Speaker 4 (33:14):
This quote too many thank yous, too rapidly said what's
going on with her? Followed by one minute later in
all caps, where's Hunter see again?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
His prime? It would have been something. It would have
been something like loopy harror, shit, some shit. He would
have made some sort of insulting remark about her personal
appearance and ignored the rest of the speech.

Speaker 4 (33:39):
One one minute later, Walls was an assistant coach, not
a coach.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
That's such a weak.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Very funny, very funny.

Speaker 5 (33:49):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Most American men have been on a sports team, and
we all know you just call them all coach. Everyone
is like coach, They're just all coach. You don't say
assistant coach. No player in a football team is everything like, hey,
assistant coach, could you come over here? Like that's just
not the way people are.

Speaker 1 (34:09):
No wow, anything else.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
A few months ago, we did an episode talking about
kind of polls that is now largely outdated because Biden's
no longer in the race, but we did talk about
how most people's pick for president was literally anybody else.
We saw one booth at the DNC protest that was
literally anyone else themed booth, And oh boy, do I
have news for you, buddy.

Speaker 7 (34:28):
Good news.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
But we do have some polling data kind of on
how satisfied people feel based on their choices for this
presidential election. Now, obviously there's there's a small post convention
bump for Harris, but that that that kind of usually
tapers off. But in terms of their satisfaction of the
candidacy options, in May, only fifty five percent of Democrats

(34:52):
said they were satisfied. Now seventy nine percent say they're satisfied.
Massive and for Republicans, back in May, sixty eight were
satisfied and now seventy four are satisfied, so but both
are moving towards higher satisfaction. And obviously the giant shift
in Democrat numbers is because is because of Kamala now
and they're more satisfied with her than Republicans seem to

(35:15):
be with Trump, which is which is an interesting stat
And this is based on a New York Times Seata
College poll of registered voters in Arizona, Georgia, Nomada, Michigan, Pennsylvania,
and Wisconsin.

Speaker 5 (35:26):
So that's just.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
A few a few interesting a few interesting little notes
there as we close out this week talking about the DNC.
And then finally I have one kind of little funny anecdote.
As we were leaving the DNC after Kamala's speech, means,
Sophie was walking around this area of Chicago trying to
get far enough away from the convention center to get

(35:48):
nuber and I saw this guy maybe in his like
oh so funny, probably in his twenties, who is either
about to block up or just de blocked.

Speaker 5 (35:57):
And you can tell because he's wearing the pants he's wearing.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Doc Martins Scarrison is referring to someone who has just
taken off their black block as in the traditional kind
of anarchist protest garb and put on normal street clothes
so as to escape from a police cordon.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
Yeah, so this guy was walking around, either about to
go to the protest or just left still had the
Doc martins On, had like the backpack full of his stuff.
And as he walked by me, I just almost instinctively,
like without thinking at all, this was this was this
wasn't on purpose, Just instinctively, I kind of muttered to myself,
I know what you are and and he heard this

(36:33):
and like turned around, looking kind of like confused or concern,
and I just had to I had to turn around.
I just gave him a smile and a thumbs up,
and he smiled back and kept and kept walking on.
And that was my last interaction at the DNC, just
like this a little bit of using to me. There

(36:53):
was a protest of around similar numbers to Mondays, so
maybe like three thousand, two thousand people for kind of
the last march on the DNC last Thursday. So there
was another one of these big kind of coalition led marches.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Quickly. It was not far from Monday's numbers actually, which
was impressive.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
Pretty close, pretty close, but they did not reach the
fence on like last time, a small section of them
did not break off from the protest marshals and bypass
a section of the fence on onlike Monday, which did
cause significant disruptions, but disruptions were not needed because the
DNZ disrupted itself by overbooking the venue and having way
too many people.

Speaker 5 (37:30):
So there you go. That was the DNC.

Speaker 6 (37:33):
I'm really glad it's over me too.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
I'm really glad it's over too. And I can't wait
until twenty twenty eight when we all get to be
together again to cover the next election. If there is.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
One, Comrade AOC proudly takes control. She raises the red
flag on stage.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Comrade AOC with her vice presidential candidate, the literal bones
of Leon Trotsky running versus just an open chasm to
the pit of Hell, an actual crack in the earth
through which you can see the ephemeral forms of demons
roiling in the magma below. That's gotta be a great

(38:15):
gotta be a great one. Really excited for those conventions.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
And or Donald Trump Junior.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Eric Trump and Donald Trump Junior, finally the Dream Team.

Speaker 5 (38:25):
I believe they could open up a chasm to Hell.

Speaker 8 (38:28):
I do.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
I think what would be more likely is if Eric
Trump and Donald Trump Junior are on the same team
with a bunch of secret Service agents, that we finally,
finally have a presidential election decided from a fentanyl overdose.
They get some tampered coke.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Anyways, the podcast is over.

Speaker 11 (38:46):
I'm gonna go die now goodbye.

Speaker 10 (39:09):
When therefore, a man is told you your inner being
are so and so because your skull bone is so constituted,
this means nothing else than that we regard a bone
as the man's reality. To retort upon such a statement,
The retort here would properly speaking, have to go to

(39:29):
the link, so breaking the skull of the person who
makes a statement like that, in order to demonstrate to
him in a manner as palpable as his own wisdom,
that a bone is nothing of an inherent nature at
all for a man still less his true reality. Welcome
to knapp here. I'm your host, Bia Wong. That was
the man himself, George Wilhelm Frederick Hegel from the Phenomenology

(39:50):
of Mind.

Speaker 7 (39:52):
I'm gonna go full Ceesar shape post here like that's not.

Speaker 10 (39:56):
Hegel lovely and with me is as you as you
have just heard is Emmie Flores, a queer socialist in
Mexico City who's we've had on the show before talk
about Mexican turfs, who's worked with Zapotisea Networks, And we are,
once again, I think, delving into the terrifying, extremely well

(40:19):
organized world of Mexican turfs. And I guess this is
kind of a they're eating a bit of shit episode,
which is good.

Speaker 7 (40:27):
We have good news in this show.

Speaker 10 (40:30):
Who very rare occurrence we have. We have a little
bit of good news. Yeah, also, welcome to the show.
Excited to have you back.

Speaker 7 (40:37):
I love it. I love the show, and I'm happy
to update because last time we left on a real
sour note, and this time, I mean, it's not exactly
fantastic news, but things are looking up in this specific part,
and I think you're going to introduce us to a
massive dolly we just got worldwide.

Speaker 10 (40:59):
Yeah, so we ended up not doing a full episode
on this, but one of the big sort of stories
for the last few weeks.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
And I don't know.

Speaker 10 (41:06):
When this episod is gonna be coming out, so maybe
this is gonna be ancient news by that point. But
the day we're recording this is like one day after
the Aegerian boxer in mon khalif I'd won the gold
medal of the Olympics. She has been I mean, this
story has been sort of beaten to death, but like
she's been like accused of being a man and being
like transgender, and like all of this shit from a

(41:29):
whole bunch of like, I mean everyone from like Elon
Musk to like jk Rowling to Meggan. Kelly's losing her
mind about it. I forgot she even existed until this,
but she's apparently around and doing this, you know. So
so I think people sort of know the basics of
this story, but there's a part of the story about
sort of you know, I will, I guess we'll probably

(41:50):
get into a little bit of this about how a
lot of this is sort of manufactured by a bunch
of incredibly sore losers and like weird transphobes in a
incredibly corrupt like Russian ran boxing association, right right. But
the other side of this, it has gotten absolutely zero
coverage anywhere. Is that a huge amount of the attacks

(42:13):
against against her were started by the Mexican Turf Network.

Speaker 7 (42:18):
Yeah, and so presently one of the few coverages I've
seen has been in Mexican like feminist news, which is
like part of the things that have changed since then,
like Mexican and Latin American feminists have realized, oh, we
fucked up, and we're trying to fix our mistakes. But sadly,
I think the world suffered one of our latest mistakes.

Speaker 10 (42:39):
Yeah, so can you tell us about sort of how
this whole thing started, which I think is like several
years earlier than most people seem to really like understand.

Speaker 7 (42:50):
I think the corruption angle that we might expand a
little bit more, that is the beginning of it. And
I think it was a little bit and it was
like in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let's
be real, she won gold. I was not betting on
her winning gold. Like, she's really good, but she's not
like the buffiest out there. It's pure racism and convenience

(43:13):
that she's been labeled and targeted the way the wish
is because like you see her opponents and there are
the buffiest girls I've ever seen in my life. They're incredible,
Like every single athlete up there is amazing. And took
pictures of her and say, you're telling me, this is
not a man like she's like a little bit skinny honestly,

(43:33):
Like she's really tall, so she has to be skinny
to be competing that way.

Speaker 10 (43:36):
It's like have you had people ever seen a boxer before,
Like it's just bad.

Speaker 7 (43:41):
Like one of the boxers that defended her, like she
was offended, Like you're telling me that I've been in
money before, and like I didn't even qualify for these
year's Olympics. Like she's not invincible, even if this is
probably her best best performance. Yea, she really show on
the spotlight. I love her, but like she's not extremely
muscular or anything. Not that being muscular is masculine, but

(44:03):
like this was really just both racism and convenience. But
part of that is uh. One of the first people
who started complaining about this after the corrupt Russian Russian
Oligor glad box in federation that got disqualified from the Olympics.

Speaker 10 (44:22):
Yeah, like again I want I want a plause here
and everyone like take note of this. Do you understand
how corrupt of an organization you have to be for
the fucking Olympics to stop working with you, Like you
have to make the Chicago fucking machine look squeaky clean
for for the Olympics to network.

Speaker 12 (44:44):
Like when we're talking about every single other sport is
also wind shit like this, Like they just went to
greedy like they like in some Russian oligarch that got
into fights with people during the war in Ukraine, and
then they didn't stop doing corruption shit, Like they couldn't
just take a year break.

Speaker 7 (45:01):
They had to push. Yeah, like they had to play
two dirty. So at the end of the day in
Manica disqualified with like trust me, pro levels of citations
for her. No one knew for a while what what
was the thing that disqualified her? What was it? Hormones, chromosomes, vibes.

(45:21):
It turns out it's mostly vibes. Yeah, and uh so
when when she got disqualified from a not an Olympic event,
but uh corrupt Russian arclead event. A former boxer who
lost against her, who's from Mexico, who sucks ass like
she's really dog shit. She started posting pictures of her

(45:44):
ruses after the match, and honestly, she reminds me of
the Italian boxer that also got her ship rocks. Yeah,
because they keep she did perform very well in Many
at the at the end when when she got gold,
but the very first like matches she got were against
like how did these people get here?

Speaker 10 (46:04):
Yeah, like that that Italian boxer, Like this is the
only time I will ever say this about something that
happened in the Olympics.

Speaker 5 (46:10):
It's like the Italian boxer threw the.

Speaker 10 (46:12):
Worst punch I've ever seen and then instantly got punched
by like the most obvious punch of the entire world
in the face.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
It's like, wait, what are you doing? How did you
get here?

Speaker 7 (46:22):
Like, and like I won't go deep into why why
Brianda Tamara sucks so much as because that would have
been the episode we ended up not doing, but suffice
it to say, like she's just not in that level.
She didn't qualify for a reason this time. But and
also I noticed that she was waiting to do her
proterview right now, like something fill planned about all of this. Yeah,

(46:45):
Like she she announced that she retired from amateur boxing,
which you not, honestly is the more legit boxing, don't
at me. And she she's going bro which means she's
now charging for tickets. And she announced her ProView the
same day that this whole like bundle started for international

(47:06):
people watching the Olympics. Like she very much knew that
the people were gonna try something.

Speaker 10 (47:11):
Yeah, so she so she's using this as like boxing promoting, yeah,
pretty much, which is like the shady ship.

Speaker 7 (47:17):
Yeah, boxing promoting in Cinela, which like if you know
anything about Mexico, that's that's gonna be a couple of
red les, oh boy. But so the thing is, why
did she knew that she was gonna happen? Really says
a lot about how international terms are operating nowadays, right,
like I don't want to get all fucking Russia Gate

(47:38):
and like like have my fucking persecure body pillow like
some leaves have. But terms are trying to get money
and influence anywhere they can, and some of them are
trying to get in from Russia, right like yeah, it's
if they're already putting people in concreation camps in China,
like they say, hell, yeah, I want me some of that.

(47:58):
And you know the Brits are something too focused on Britain.
You need something international to make the money flow down
to Latin America, especially out of Spain. Spain kind of
hawks it all for themselves. The first new site that
took the years ago translated to English is called Redox
magazine like that, I think it's a Canadian joint reados.

(48:20):
It's the only side I've seen in all of like
the urf landscape that only publishes in English and Spanish. Like,
it's very clearly a fulcrum for like terf organizing in
Latin America and in the anglosphere. And I don't think
it's a coincidence that this story broke quote unquote, Like

(48:42):
the first people who commented on this and like renewed
the accusations of Umana being trans was Redocs and then
other like transphobic boxing coaches from Italy and England and
the United States started picking up the story. But that
was after like the more diplomatically minded Mexican turfs and

(49:04):
Spanish turfs that usually don't work together. Again, they don't
like to share. Listen, Mexico don't have the best relationship
with Spain for obvious reasons. Yeah, But even then, like
ass spaces for TERFs in Mexico had been closing, they're
looking for funding from other places. Right, the turf gambit

(49:24):
didn't work quite well in Mexico, so they're trying to
look for international sponsor sponsorships, and they thought they had
hit a big one here. They had the attention of
the entire world. People were sharing Breanda's photos because like again,
Brianda doesn't have it's not a good boxer, so she
looks like a young short, pretty lated like beer Verista,

(49:45):
and put her against like someone who's like a head
taller that beat her ass because she she sucks. They
couldn't ask for a very propaganda. Yeah, but it really
backfired when the entire world went, what what are you
talking about? Yeah, but I think it worked for Mexican turfs.
I think they might get like a couple of grants

(50:05):
here and there. They're back in the railar at least internationally,
and that's why I think coming here is really important
because we didn't win precisely, and we'll get to that,
but at least we're in a stalemate, and I think
they're trying to look for either allies or honestly job
s elsewhere. They might just want a spot in Ridos magazine,

(50:25):
like to get into like be able to move to
Britain or shit like that.

Speaker 8 (50:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (50:30):
I think is something that is important about the Mexican TERFs,
which is like unlike in the US, where there's just
this like unbelievably large pot of money that you can
tap into from like the Heritage Foundation and like all
of these sort of like right wing think tanks. It's
like the funding is a lot harder to come by.

Speaker 7 (50:51):
We all have troubles getting funding.

Speaker 10 (50:53):
Lot.

Speaker 7 (50:53):
Yeah, any type of small grant that would be a
nothing burger in America goes a long way here, right,
And so the far right has been really smart and
pushing stuff, but it hasn't really paid divends. And it's
all gonna write up for a while, honestly, especially with
like how the economy is going. I think in the
Age of infinite money of twenty twenty, like they were

(51:16):
willing to throw more money at like a long shot
that in Brasil or Mexico right now. They got to
bring something to the table, and they tried to bring
in money, and they I think they fucking ate shit.

Speaker 10 (51:30):
Hell yeah, So okay, you know what else brings something
to the table? It is the products and services that
I put food on my table.

Speaker 5 (51:36):
I guess.

Speaker 7 (51:37):
God, all the other pros of this.

Speaker 5 (51:40):
Here are these.

Speaker 13 (51:41):
Ads and we are back.

Speaker 10 (51:52):
So I wanted to kind of move to talking about
what's been happening in this sort of Mexican feminis scene
in in terms of sort of what's what's been going
on with her since the election of the new Mexican President,
Claudia Shamebaum, Who's I don't know, like I think a
lot of Americans, I think the conception of her is
that she's like significantly further left, and she actually is.

Speaker 7 (52:14):
Oh yeah, like I you know what, I felt so
much Scott and Freud when like people started talking about
Kamala like she was gonna end Aparth type and the
general side, and I was like, how does see it?
Fucking feel sorry, I'm really angry at every single article
no one caocked her correctly, like both the far right

(52:35):
and the left thought she was significantly to the left,
like everyone said like, oh, finally a feminist Jewish woman,
and like the Jewish Party is gonna play a part
because like I do, feel we're gonna see a rise
in anti Semitism in Mexico, a big one, Like say,
I feel like a Birther style movement from when Obama
was elected coming up and it's gonna play again. I

(52:57):
see Claudie shamebamb She's not just an extension of Amelo
and she is I would say, not further to the
left than and there's whatever, but she has less right
wing things about her, right, It's not like she's better
than Handload, she's just less worse. She's she because like
almost like an old Christian guy, like and I do

(53:18):
mean Christian, Like this is a Catholic country, and Nanload
is like I think it's he's like Pentecostal or something
like he's never needed like what his relatives said, but
he did do like weird right wing things, especially culturally,
well I mean not everywhere right, Like we got hell
of militarized, like half our infrastructure is owned by the
military now, which is like just Jack Carton metoying ourselves

(53:42):
like for free. And he goes on rants about how
drugs are caused by valuing video games and like like
he like for for a week, try to like say
we should ban Fortnite. That didn't know anywhere, and I
think it was just because his son didn't stop playing it.
Maybe he overspent on the family credit card. But like, yeah,

(54:06):
he's very like he has a very Christian morality, and
it's a weird fit with Mexicans Catholic one in the
weirdest way. Like he's very like work Will, like very
Protestant ethics guy, and people didn't talk about that, and
now they think Claudia is gonna bring like Jewish ethics.
And no, she's like just like a Mexican scientist, like professional,

(54:30):
like she's very much a scientist at least that's her
self conception and how she operates. And she I think
a lot of people underestimated her, like they just saw
her as an appendage of Handlow, like with no real
political document or skill of herself. She doesn't really have
a base of voters. Again, she's like an academic like
her bass voters are college graduates left lining college garrets,

(54:54):
but not too left learning because otherwise you'll see like, hey,
please stop militaries in our country. And yeah, so we
didn't expect her to to win with like the margins
that she did. She won with historic margins more both
than a lookout. It's just she's so fucking shrue. And
this ties to the TERFs because like four years we

(55:16):
were really worried because like we thought she was a turf,
Like we straight up thought she was a turf, even
though she passed some of the largest like trends positive
legislations in Mexico City. That was more like momentum from
Mexico City being like this progressive center of Mexican politics,
and like I know, I participated in getting that law pass,
like like she wasn't happy about that. She basically was

(55:39):
trying to get some Heritage Foundation funded folks to sit
in a table and like have a big discussion, like
a very very centristing thing of like let's listen to
both sides. And it's because she had like some of
the og TERFs from Mexico, like from some some of
them like that started in the seventies, Like people who
knew Jenny's raim when she was young were literally in

(56:02):
Morena structure. Like during twenty twenty, like the women's agenda
for Morena was set by turfs, by some of the
the worst turfs, like some of the most internationally well
connected turfs too, right, and that was a huge problem.
We managed to push back against that with protests with
like talking to politicians like not really begging, we just

(56:23):
you know, that's a nice win do you have there?
That would be a chief having too. And also that
by like my collective, like we started focusing on like
oh god, I don't want to say anymore because like
since since Ukraine, like saying, oh, since soul Craine. But
like we started like investigating and like tracking, like these

(56:46):
people start showing up in like government positions. That was
really worrying. Yeah, some of them were like very clearly
affiliated with the far right, but some of them were
they came from like union jobs on and she like that,
or they like they were the anarchists throwing bricks at
walls like a year ago, and we started seeing them

(57:06):
get co opted slowly, and we were really scared. But
then I think we underestimated that Claudia was playing us,
but she was also playing them, Like she is a
really shrewd political operator, and she gave TERFs enough to
get them to do what terms do best, which is
break up feminist organizing. Yeah, so whatever Cloudy could not

(57:28):
directly co opt to like get like leaders, there were
some like black Blocks in Mexico whose leaders like literally
had in their linkedins that they were like doing like
black blook shit.

Speaker 5 (57:41):
Oh my god, I know.

Speaker 7 (57:43):
It's incredible, And it just gave everything away because the
same person who did that had in her LinkedIn like
a year previously that she was like an eighty for
a Marina congress woman. Oh my god, and h yeah,
I think what Marina. They was infiltrate a lot of
black blocks to neutralize them because during twenty twenty two

(58:05):
years after Amlo got elected, like Mexican feminists were I
would say, the biggest fire in social movements in Mexico,
like with the Sapatistas getting surrounded by state sponsored narco
cartels and stuff, like they were really paralyzed and with
COVID and everything like that, like a lot of other
organizing got real damaged. But feminists were like they were

(58:29):
trying to get abortion passed, and they succeeded for most
of it. But like institutional feminists succeeded banning abortion and
more independent or street anarchists, socialist based feminists, they suddenly
didn't have anything to demand. So they either got kushi
government jobs or they got arrested or they helped the

(58:53):
police arrest people, like by being like clearly just like
you know the classic like eight people get arrested and
one of them gets out in like a week and
it's like ah yeah. And so like feminists got are
road awakening, and before they were more permissive like cool feminists,
like real leftists, socialist and queer feminists, were more permissive

(59:17):
of TERFs during like the twenty sixteen two twenty twenty
two because they thought, like, we need unity within feminism,
we need to like get a version passed, we need
to like combat both the far right and an lost conservatism.
And well they won and a bunch of their leaders
got co upted. We have an epidemic of like feminist

(59:38):
activists passing laws with their names. Like the one movement
that got defeated the worst is anti car solo feminism.
Like forget about abolitionism in the carsonal sense. It's no
one gave a shit about that. Even anarchists were trying
to pass laws to like lay Olivia to scalp thats
who haven't paid child support, Like they really at everything

(01:00:00):
on punitivism. And that's the thing that united like every
single segment of feminism, including rat friends centers, Like they
love putting people in jail. It's their whole entire deal.
And so but the thing is that's the way you
get you co opt someone, You just tell her okay,
instead of like being an archopunk like doing tagging government buildings.

(01:00:23):
What if I just give you a shit a lot
of money, and I pay for you to go to
fancy hotels in every state and like talk about how
important it is that we throw your X into a
into a meat processing machine for like breaking up with you. Yeah,
and I mean I'm being believed, like there's horrible shit,

(01:00:43):
like we have to pass a lot to like give
more time to people who threw acid at women's faces. Right,
but like that's already legal. It's already legal. I don't
know if it's gonna work that well, especially because like
I think one of the most biggest cases of like
a literal trafficker just got off jail this week and

(01:01:04):
he literally tortured one of Mexico's biggest rod fims. And
it's like, what did it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
You did?

Speaker 7 (01:01:10):
Did this all for nothing? Like you're just gonna like
lock up more poor people and like rich assholes are
gonna work free. Yeah, and so yeah, that was twenty twenty.
Then it got co opted and just like Claudia gave
us some loss for trans people, she put turfs in
government positions. We protested that, and then she dropped them,

(01:01:32):
like she really did a andy with Woody, Like I
don't want to play with you anymore. Like once she
neutralized the feminist movement, once there were like there was
no threat of escalation, she really didn't need the black
the fake black blocks. She just you know dropped them.

Speaker 10 (01:01:49):
Yeah, And speaking of fake black blocks, you too could
buy a fake flack flock from Products and Services.

Speaker 5 (01:02:08):
And we are back.

Speaker 10 (01:02:09):
Yeah, So let's get into what's been happening in kind
of present day. The thing that's really interesting to me
about like about the way that sort of Mexican turf
stuff works is that they in a way that's kind
of I don't know, American TERFs kind of work like this,
Like they really function in a very similar way to
like left social movements, right, except that they're like newer

(01:02:32):
world social movement for evil. But it's like like they
have a lot of the same kind of like strengths
and weaknesses that that like conventional like social movements have,
which I think ties into a lot of what's going
to happen to them and the fact that you can
you know, and in the same way that you can
co opt to social movement, like they're also vulnerable to that.

Speaker 7 (01:02:51):
Yeah. Well, when money dr I saw and like the
options are stop organizing as a feminist, Like I cannot
tell you how many lesbian services serve are married and pregnant. Now,
it's like they just dropped that shit like Shaman dropped them,
like Shama didn't do it of the kindness of her heart.
I think she realized that this was a vulnerability. She

(01:03:13):
needed to convince like the Jacobins of the world that
she was this socialist president like Amblo but even better
now in feminist form, and she really couldn't do that
if there was like these huge like people who didn't
even pay attention to Mexican politics but just jk rowling.
Like this was just a huge vulnerability. She also didn't

(01:03:35):
want this mostly to be a debate. I heard rumors
and I buy them completely, Like that she pushed for
no treans women being legislators in our congress. Ye, because
we had we had two before. One of them supped
ass and the other one was kind of fine, like
just normal lefty centrist woman. The other one was just horrible.

(01:03:56):
So it's honestly, I'm going with it.

Speaker 10 (01:03:58):
Yeah, that's wish you were about to have here. We're like,
we're gonna get our first traps over a congress but
she's absolutely dog shit like terrible ziists, Like yeah, now.

Speaker 7 (01:04:08):
They were night to work with, they consistently. I think
they were just there to like waste her fucking time,
like you would have a meeting with them. It should
so should we like pass this legislation saying that you
can have like no gender on your voter ready, And
that took the whole six years Jesus Christ, And I

(01:04:30):
didn't even want it, like I haven't even changed my
legal thing, so like it's not my priority. But it
was a lot of people's priorities, and they kind of
wasted our whole community's time. But even that was not enough.
I think Chama just didn't want headlines, Like she was
content for others, other people to handle the quote unquote debate.

(01:04:50):
She didn't want anything to do with it because she
it only cost her. Like the reason she defended some
terms is that some of them were like loyal to her,
and that's what she wanted. She wanted loyalty because she
needed party loyalty to like have a tight grip on
Morena because what she knew she could win pretty easily.

(01:05:11):
She didn't need to appeal to the right or the
center right and good for her, Like I'm an antil electoralist,
but like electoralist should not fucking listen to suburban moms,
Like who gives a shit? Yeah, going more to the
left is, to a certain extent, is better electorally. Like
just look at the numbers between Paris and buy them.
And it's just vibes. It's not even like real policy,

(01:05:33):
but just the vibes. Like you don't need you don't
need to listen to pant voters because they're pant voters.
They're not gonna vote for Morena. And like the right
here in Mexico is really weird because like they have
this really like neo liberal view, but their culture is
so aristocratic. It's kind of like what if them's were
like very stories, Like because they they hate for people,

(01:05:57):
not like Republicans hate for people, like because they also
pretend to be Panistas, don't They lost half because Shane
Bawn really took hold of Morena structure and mobilized it
to vote in a way that was unprecedented, even more
than Amblos's vote. And because like Panista just couldn't shut
up about how racist they are. They were just constantly
saying the most horrible shit about Morena voters. And there

(01:06:21):
were campaigns by saying go vote because they thought that
like Amlo is like a dictator, because they really think
that everyone is addicted. Everyone that's to the left of
Mussolini is a dictator and almost a dictator. So go
out and vote. They thought, like citizen participation is gonna
destroy the Amblo regime from We're gonna be back to
Mexico instead of being not and so. But the thing is,

(01:06:49):
when you send most of the population to vote, they're
not gonna vote for like the most repugnant, classiest people ever.
And the candidate they chose was not a candidate like
such a Galavis was an indigenous woman. Like they thought
they were gonna outflank shame and with that, but they
didn't like she success such a tool. She's not far right.

(01:07:13):
She used to be in Perade, which was also an
um lost party, but she was part of like when
when Pang got into power in two thousands, she was
the one in charge of the negotiation with the Elene
and she betrayed the Sapatistas.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 7 (01:07:28):
She was not gonna get an indigenous vote like so
this is the first time the right does this right,
like Pan did the fucking classic damn thing of like
offering a wired down version of the the other candidate,
and they lost enormously and a lot of turfs. To
get back to the topic, a lot of ters beat
on both of them. They were really hedging. They wanted

(01:07:49):
to be especially more institutional terms. They said, as long
as we get a women president, we're gonna be cool.

Speaker 8 (01:07:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
That like backfired on them.

Speaker 7 (01:07:57):
Yeah, oh yeah, like Shambah, Like I said, what she
cares about is loyalty. She didn't care about broad fence
because she believed in them, just like she didn't care
about trans people because she believed in us. She wanted
loyal like loyal dogs. And if you are hedging your beds,
yeah you and she wins with sixty percent, you're not
going to see a single cent from the arms.

Speaker 13 (01:08:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:08:19):
She kind of Okay, this is like, this is an
absolutely deranged comparison. But she kind of reminds me of
jijiin Ping in the way that like the way the
way that Chijinping does politics is by.

Speaker 7 (01:08:29):
Every single momenta geopolitics, not just fainted. When you say that,
she's a lot.

Speaker 10 (01:08:33):
Of the same no, because like Chijin Ping's like political
style is sort of you know, he's been he's been
very very good at like like centralizing the bureaucracy around
him and sort of like neutralizing social movement. And this
has been a classic like a sort of long range
like post culture revolution like Chinese companies party thing of
like we need to make sure there's not treat movements

(01:08:54):
we need to sort of neutralize. Yeah, it's also amusing,
you know, yeah, but it's also like you know, Jiji
Ping sort of very much is also like a loyalty guy, right,
He's like, you know, he he will he will sort
of set up antic corruption things like per people who
are like aren't loyal to him, because that's you know,
that's that's the way that this kind of like centralizing
politics works, and it's it's church is really interesting that

(01:09:14):
like we're seeing.

Speaker 5 (01:09:15):
This with we're saying this with the TERFs.

Speaker 10 (01:09:18):
Route was like, well, you guys, like I'm sorry, you
guys weren't fucking loyal enough. So like each ship you're
gonna get get ed corruption campaigned.

Speaker 7 (01:09:28):
There's people that we proted that are super close to
shameebelnd that we were really scared would get government positions
and we're TERFs. They didn't get shipped. There's no like
trans legislature, but there's also no terf legislators. Yeah, there's
a world where that could have happened that we would
have been fucked. I think without our protests, like not
just the ones we organized from my collective, the rather

(01:09:50):
decidence that we were focused on some of the closest
to Shamebelin but like every transperson knew that like this
was something real that and we kind of to stop
to it. But and they don't been a stalemate because again,
what Shimun did was defend her loyal terms and she
moved them to positions outside of the spotlight honestly more

(01:10:10):
suited to their to their italients. Like her TERFs were
not really charismatic. She was trying to set them up
like as influencers and like they just had theirs.

Speaker 10 (01:10:21):
There's no juice at all, is a classic Jesus, like
just being the most juiceless motherfuckers and no planet.

Speaker 7 (01:10:27):
Absolutely and like really in concuring politics, yeah, because like
they again they were they were kind of like they're
more like lefty in discourse. They were very nationalists obviously,
but also like they were hyping how feminist she was
and like, oh, we're gonna confront American imperialism and while
at the same time like being obsessed with like British TERFs,

(01:10:51):
so like that it was really contradictory. So Moina calls
their movement like the forty the fourth Transformation, which is like,
just I won't even get into it. It's just such
a fucking bizarre thing.

Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
Has a third transformation or something? Was he also doing
the fourth Transformation?

Speaker 7 (01:11:07):
It's like no, no, it's like the Independence when we
kicked Francis ass and then revolution. Those are the three
and then and then the fourth is him right, like
he's saying like I'm I'm Benitaquaras reborn and uh yeah, cringe,
but like it's stuck. Honestly, I use it because like
it's such a good shorthanded because morena is so large,

(01:11:29):
such such a big word, and it's also cringe because
like morena, which means morena means like brown skin, so
and also like becon morena, which is like Mexico's virgin mary,
so very creene. Even for quarter is even less cringe.
So yeah, sure, whatever, but like one of the most

(01:11:49):
famous Mexican Mexican feminists started calling them the Quadra.

Speaker 10 (01:11:53):
Oh my god, that stocks it's really I fucking look
like it.

Speaker 7 (01:11:57):
So that stuck. But basically the quarter there is not
out of power. Like the most ambitious ones and the
most purely TERFs got quick kicked out, and the loyal
dogs got sent to do like other jobs. Like they're
now talking to academics about like green progressive socialism and shit,
Like they're just doing talksing like with like eighty year
old tenured professors and like that is still real skin.

(01:12:19):
There's we're still watching them. But I think Shimun told them,
like I'm gonna protect you, but you need to shut
the fuck up. You better not say the word rands
for six years, go go knots afterwards. But you're gonna
have a job and you're gonna have a possibility of
returning and that I'm not gonna help you. That's on you,
and like, honestly, at least that's a fair playing field.

(01:12:40):
I'll take it. I'll fucking take it.

Speaker 10 (01:12:41):
So yeah, I guess like the state of things seems
to be that the deal is we're just gonna take
like trans people as a political issue off the table
for Yeah, what I have many years.

Speaker 7 (01:12:54):
Well, I think we're we're gonna she's gonna let like
states handle it, like a trans law passes in a state.
She's gonna let it. And I don't think anti trans
laws are gonna have a good time interesting trying to
pass because the right age ship. Yeah, they really thought
they were gonna at least have a competitive edge, and

(01:13:15):
no one voted. And again like there's a lot of
Turfs that were more aligned with the far right, but
they were not acting like it. The rhetoric didn't look
until a couple of months ago, like the rhetoric that
Britain or the US turfs have both types of US
turf that I think there's we have every single type

(01:13:36):
of derf here in Mexico. If you can think of
a type of trf, we have it. I think Britain
is mostly wine moms and the US is both angio
freaks and like hippie where those like ex anarchists, the
brain resistance types right like.

Speaker 10 (01:13:50):
Yeah, well I need to draw the light, you're damn it.
But the decree resistance people were never anarchists. They were
always they were always weird primitivist, but like vague like
vanguar is primitivists.

Speaker 7 (01:14:01):
Yeah, I know. I love that article by Julie who
accompanied me in less episode about someone fining a hot
dog and it fucking rules. But yeah, right, like we
had that, Like we even have like a deep rear
system to Mexico thing going on for like a couple
of years. So Mexican terms here that align themselves with

(01:14:22):
the far right are gonna see both less resources because
the far right is healing some Bruce Eagles, so they're riding,
aren't gonna have to go full fascist, which oh.

Speaker 5 (01:14:32):
They will, Yeah, many such cases.

Speaker 7 (01:14:36):
Yeah, they can no longer get money from like your
center right, like respectable democracy people who are basically are
just right. They don't they They spend most of their
time like just complaining how like Maduro and Amlow and
like treating like everyone's the same thing, because the only
thing they want is like just they want new liberalism

(01:14:59):
and I'm tired of we have new liberalism. Yeah, like
my I is just newly realism with a little bit
of just enough like welfare state to like keep everything
from blowing up. So yeah, this that's the case here.
They ate ship. They don't have money, so they either
have to find local fascists with which they have or

(01:15:19):
they have to appeal to Brits with things like the
boxing scandal.

Speaker 10 (01:15:25):
Yeah, and that sort of brings us full circle to like,
I guess literally the present day, as in like the
time this is being recorded, where their big attempts to
like generate a bunch of revenue for themselves and like
bring themselves back into the spotlight has kind of blown
up with their faces.

Speaker 7 (01:15:44):
Yeah, and listen. One of the few good parts of
like Moderna's co option of feminism is that some previously,
like I don't want to say controversial, but like there
were really a lot of campaigns to try to remove
prestige from any any prominent trans inclusive feminists in Mexico,
like Mexican academia and Mexican like high feminism really started

(01:16:08):
to go full Wratham in twenty sixteen, and it started
by trying to attack any single prestigious feminist that was
not a TERRF. Chief amongst them is Marta Lamas, who
I love her. She's extremely live, but like I still
love her because she she comes from a history of
like not quite radical but not quite radical Mexican academia

(01:16:32):
that like says she like reformist in method radical in objectives.

Speaker 5 (01:16:39):
Sure, sure, but she at least.

Speaker 7 (01:16:41):
Thinks it's true and lives by it. And she is
if you want to read stuff by her. She has
one of the best accounts of the history of sex
work in Mexico Food Water and a nache a fantastic book,
fully recommended.

Speaker 5 (01:16:53):
Yeah, we'll put a link to that in the description.

Speaker 7 (01:16:56):
Yeah, so she got into like the mayor of Mexico
City is a team. She is now in Clara Brugada's team,
and Clara is like the front runner for the next
presidential candidate. She is not Chamberin's friend. So my suspicion
is that Shaman is keeping her terms on reserve to
push back against Clara. Oh interesting to find another female

(01:17:18):
candidate and proper up as the feminist successor to Claudia
or a male candidate like she needs like feminists on
her side on reserve to combat like Clara. Who Clara Again,
it's further to live than Chamblain and she doesn't come
from an academic background. She comes from a grassroots urban
movement background in the like thehood of Mexico City, in turn,

(01:17:41):
Brugada needs more institutional and like legit support. And Marta Lamas,
while she was controversial because of TERFs smearing her, but
she is Marta Fokin Lamas and she is white as hell.
So Clara got her in her team and now she
gets to be the chief leftist feminists in Mexico because like,

(01:18:02):
if Kaalia starts tucking too much about feminism, well she's
a Google search away from like turf scandals.

Speaker 5 (01:18:09):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:18:10):
And Nata really pushed back against turf influence in Moena,
which I'm really frank, like, if you're gonna be co
opted this, that's the least amount of like allyship you
need to do.

Speaker 10 (01:18:19):
All right, Yeah yeah, even push the turfs out from
your like fucking mansion.

Speaker 7 (01:18:25):
We can push X to the to the left, Well,
then do it. I people love saying they want to
push politicians to the left, and then don't push push
politicians to the left. They just want to lose the
critical power.

Speaker 5 (01:18:38):
Yeah yeah. Is there anything else that you want to
make sure we get you before we wrap up?

Speaker 7 (01:18:45):
I think wrapping up to the Readogs magazine. Keep an
eye on like those kinds of places that are trying
to connect things, because we already saw that this can
spill over from Mexico or Brazil or Korea. I think
Korea is gonna be bad.

Speaker 5 (01:19:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:19:02):
Yeah, So the thing about Korea I haven't done much about.
We probably will at some point cover this stuff in Korea.
Korea is having a really really sort of unbelievable sort
of anti feminist backlash. But this has also had the
impact of like really empowering the rad fems. Yeah, and
it's it's a complete catastrophe.

Speaker 5 (01:19:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:19:27):
I would really advise against idealizing feminist movements elsewhere. Yeah,
do your research. Don't just accept on face value that
like a face you know from a third world country
is gonna be like the voice of the Global South.
That's just not fucking true. Like, if you hear a
face of the Global South, it's probably because there's money

(01:19:48):
behind it. Like, yeah, unless you're really deep and know
your shit, the first thing that's gonna show up is
gonna have money behind it. So be really careful with
other feminist ones. I saw how people idealized Mexican feminism,
not knowing just how deeply both infiltrated by the government
and paid by fire red groups, and that really backfire,

(01:20:10):
like one of the only survivors of right leaning but
left presenting feminists that called Brujazma. Yeah, they're probably the
only europe that's going to survive during the shameband presidence.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
Yeah, big turf group.

Speaker 7 (01:20:23):
Yeah, they never tried to get close to Shamba. But
also they are they never dropped the mask fully and
they're one of the biggest pushers of the name in anything,
not the originators. Those are the more internationally connected, but
they were the biggest pushers of it. They have the
most followers. They really pushon narrative. They were featured in
Times one hundred, like AARUSIONDA was Times one hundred from Mexico.

(01:20:46):
So be really careful of who you think are supporting. Yeah,
because this is going to be happening. I think it's
It might be over for now in Mexico and we
I think we didn't win, but maybe we can stop
them from researching in five years or so, and then
I think that would really steal the deal. But this
is gonna be happening everywhere where. You're gonna see it
a lot in like African feminist movements in South Southeast

(01:21:10):
Asian feminist movements. You're gonna see it pop up all
over the world. Take a lesson from Mexico and look
for trans folks over there, ask them, Hey, is this
person cool?

Speaker 5 (01:21:20):
Yeah, just the.

Speaker 7 (01:21:21):
Minimum, do the diligence before, like sharing gofundsman ship like
a please for the love of God. Again, a dollar
goes a long way here. So if feel like you
give something that would barely cover rent for someone in
the United States, that's enough to set up an organization here. Yeah,
and really fuck local politics for years to come. So

(01:21:42):
I don't know, Please be careful.

Speaker 8 (01:21:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:21:45):
So if people want to find you and the stuff
that you do that is not ship, where can they
find you?

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
Well, I'm on X everything app as a Flores And
also I have a podcast called Fatista's Knkrema. It's a
really good one in Spanish, trust me. And I'm also
trying to launch a project that's gonna be like a
sort of media watchdoggy thing. Again, we were working with

(01:22:13):
like sense here, so it's gonna take a while. Yeah,
keep an eye out if I don't know, if you
if you wanna learn more stuff about Mexican like what's
going on beyond, like either far right news like that
saw Shambone in a photograph with a transflag and friked out,
or just like people who take everything at face value
and believe that Chambon is the second coming of Marx.

(01:22:35):
So I don't know, I'll try to keep folks posted
because it's complicated, Like, yeah, we it took us an
hour to talk about even just one topic.

Speaker 10 (01:22:45):
Yeah, things complicated. Who who could possibly have guessed that?
You know, it's it's difficult to understand, very comflue to
political configurations.

Speaker 7 (01:22:54):
Yeah. So yeah, for now I'm only on xicus and
YouTube again for I do I stream on Twitch. Honestly,
this is gonna sound maybe you're gonna gonna call this,
but I really admire y'all, Like I honestly, I both
that are a little bit of envy. Uh. I wish

(01:23:16):
there's not a really an ecosystem of like content creation
or or news from a leftist perspective here. Like most
of the people again, a lot of them also got
co opted. A lot of friends I had in like
independent leftists publishing and news in Mexico are now like
full on like just modern spokespeople, or they went insane
and anti vax and like now they're far right.

Speaker 10 (01:23:38):
Well, yeah, many such cases. Yeah, so this is to
take it out here. You can find us in the places,
and until then I defeat your local TERFs.

Speaker 7 (01:23:50):
Yeah, and don't become gumnor.

Speaker 9 (01:24:17):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's just James
today and I'm joined by doctor Sink. Doctor Sink's an
educator based in California, and we're talking today about the
recent attempted assassination of a Sikh activist and this now
years long tendency of India to attempt to assassinate sick
activists in the United States and in Canada and probably

(01:24:38):
not the place is too.

Speaker 5 (01:24:39):
Welcome to the show, dot to Sink.

Speaker 8 (01:24:40):
All right, thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah,
you're welcome.

Speaker 9 (01:24:43):
And so I think people listening to this for the
first time might not be super familiar with the situation
in India and also like what Kalistan is and what
that means. So I want to get into both of
those things to start with. I think could you maybe
explain kalistan, Explain it means. Maybe people have seen this
yellow and green flag or heard the word, but they

(01:25:04):
might not know what it means.

Speaker 5 (01:25:06):
So could you break that down for US.

Speaker 8 (01:25:07):
Sure, sure. So Kalistan is essentially a freedom of liberation
movement that starts in Punjab, so it's north of India,
and Punjab is a region that is populated primarily of
six though the population numbers are changing, and so Kalistan
is essentially sovereignty freedom, it's its own homeland, so it's

(01:25:31):
labeled as the Sick Homeland. However, there will be many
different ethnicities, many different people of religious backgrounds in Kalaistan,
so it is an ongoing movement. The Indian state of course,
it's not in their best interest to lose a chunk
of land, and to lose especially a prosperous chunk of land,
so they're doing everything in their power to silence those

(01:25:52):
that speak about it, to oppress the people there so
that they don't have enough willpower to fight back. So
that's a very very brief introduction to it.

Speaker 9 (01:26:01):
Yeah, so let's zoom out a little bit and talk
about the history of sick people in India and then
the recent tendency with mody to sort of define Hinduism
and Indianism as the same thing. And you can't be
one without being the other. So maybe we can start
with that history of sick people within India. We can
pick it up, like I guess wherever you want. You
can start in nineteen thirties, or we can start a

(01:26:22):
little bit later.

Speaker 8 (01:26:24):
Yeah, well, actually I think it's important to start even
earlier than that. The origins of Six are in the
region our faith was started in fourteen sixty nine Gift,
which is in now the Pakistan region. So that's where
our faith was started, and our people have essentially been

(01:26:44):
fighting an existential battle since the faith was formed. So
different rulers of the time, different kingdoms in that area
would attempt to kind of wipe Six out, and Six
have always been fighting back and fighting for their existence.
So a small example of this is in seventeen thirty
eight and up until the seventeen seventies, there was mass

(01:27:08):
water of six and we're talking thousands killed on a
single day period we referred as the Vudine shot Lugata,
which is basically in our history, the largest population of
six decimated in a single day was in seventeen thirty eight.
In seventeen seventies as well, so we went from that
circumstance to essentially forming our own kingdom, forming our own

(01:27:31):
country in seventeen ninety nine was formally established under Mahda
Dada Djidsing, though the six were operating independently even before
that and kind of governing their own regions. But in
seventeen ninety nine the Sick Confederacy kind of joined and
became what is now known as the region of Punjab.
So the British came to colonize. They colonized India relatively

(01:27:55):
quickly after arriving, and then when they approached the Sikh Kingdom,
not only could they penetrated, they had to sign a
treaty with Mahaa Rdit Singh, who was the ruler of
Punjab at the time, and saying that we won't cross
to this side of this river and you don't cross.

Speaker 9 (01:28:09):
To the seven.

Speaker 8 (01:28:09):
So they essentially signed a treaty saying we can coexist,
but we won't come to your side because they feared
the repercussions of what that would lead to. And then slowly,
as they have with many empires, they have kind of infiltrated.
They paid folks, they sign traders, and they broke down

(01:28:31):
the annexed Punjab in eighteen forty nine. So we have
a period of colonization from eighteen forty nine, officially till
nineteen forty seven, and in nineteen forty seven the Radcliffe
line is drawn. That is where Pakistan and now what
we see as Pakistan and now India is what we
see as India, though before it was all together and

(01:28:52):
a large region of it was Punjab. When nineteen forty
seven what Indian would refer to as independence, though it
was actually a transfer of power. The gandhis of the
time are kind of credited with the independence movement, but
they were working with the British for decades before that.
They kind of knew that they would receive the reins

(01:29:13):
once the British left the region, So truly it wasn't
independence movement. It was a transfer of power from the
British to them. So in nineteen forty seven, by creating
kind of relationships through some false promises, the Hindu leaders
of the time essentially guaranteed six that you guys know
how to fight for your rights if we were ever

(01:29:33):
to infringe upon them, you guys are allowed to be
in the Punjab region, it's essentially going to be autonomous.
So after independence, essentially they immediately renagged on all of
their previous assurances and six have essentially kind of been
fighting an independence movement since nineteen forty seven. They were
not allowed to speak their language. There was a Punjabi

(01:29:56):
suba movement in nineteen fifty five where they even had
to fight for their native language to be able to
speak their native language in their region. And so now
moving many iterations later, what we see is Modi kind
of the I wouldn't say final form because we haven't
lived to the end yet, but he is the latest

(01:30:17):
iteration of Hindu nationalism, of what extremism looks like. So
he has now taken the work of the gandhis and
all of the prime ministers of India and kind of
the Indian deep state agenda and now transformed it to
saying that we want to be a nation of one language,
of one religion, of one kind of people, and there's

(01:30:39):
really no space for minorities in there, though they won't
say it openly because they want to carry the moniker
of the world's biggest democracy. They are not a secular nation.
And under Modi, we've seen massacres. We've seen, you know,
very genocidal violence which he himself allowed and which he
was not even allowed to go into many Western countries

(01:31:01):
because they held him accountable and responsible for leading the
massacre of Muslims in two thousand and two of a job.
But once he became Prime minister, they kind of backed
away from that stand and chose financial relationships. So today
we are in a place where six being less than
two percent of the population in India are continuing their

(01:31:23):
struggle for liberation, and the Indian state kind of consistent
with their agenda since nineteen forty seven, doesn't have room
for that difference, doesn't have room not only to give
them their rights, but liberation entirely. That's that's the next
step beyond that. So that's where we are today.

Speaker 9 (01:31:41):
Yeah, there's a significant Sikh community, especially on the west
coast of the USA, and I've met probably hundreds of
sick people in the last year crossing the border for
the reasons you've just outlined, and others, of course deciding
the nearly all coming from India, right and Punjab, and
they have told me some really terrible stories, right, some

(01:32:02):
really upsetting things. I've heard from those of other people.
It's not unique to them, but there's a significant sick
population on the west coast of the US. And Canada too,
So can you explain I know that sick people here
have been organizing for Kalustan for some time. There was
even like a vote recently ventstand correctly, So can you
explain like that history of the Sick dy aspirin how

(01:32:24):
they've been really important in getting the word out and advocating.

Speaker 8 (01:32:28):
First, Yeah, I'm glad we touched on migration. Actually, mass
migration out of Punjab is not a natural phenomenon. It
is the outcome of very genocidal violence. Yeah. And further
than that, it's the continued violence and oppression through different ways.
So one example is there's a strong drug nexus in

(01:32:48):
that area and anyone who is distributing drugs is protected
by the Indian state, whether through bribery, whether through their
agenda in general of keeping Punjab kind of addicted and
away from liberation, So that is one aspect of it. Further,
bung Job for the listeners, Bungjob means the land of
five rivers, Bunge means five and ob means water, so

(01:33:12):
its name is literally created on river water and the
Indian state has now taken those river waters diverted them
to different states of India and Punjab gets no royalty
for those as opposed to any other state of India.
If they have a natural resource, they get to sell
it and their state gets the benefit of that. So

(01:33:32):
Punjab at this point has been giving trillions of gallons
of water to different states for free, and Punjab is
there's different numbers out there, but sixty to sixty five
percent and agrarian society, so everyone is essentially farming. And
what the farmers of Punjab are being forced to do
is dig underground for water, even though they have natural

(01:33:57):
river water that should be going through Punjab itself which
they can redistribute. So there's a huge farmer suicide problem
happening in Punjab because they are unable to get out
of debt. They are viewing farming as an unprofitable kind
of a dead end business as opposed to farming in
many other places, so it's very profitable. They're sick farmers

(01:34:17):
in California who are multi multimillionaires, so it's not an
unprofitable business. However, the state has made it that way
understanding that if we can cripple farming their water supply
and get their next generation addicted to drugs, then they'll
be forced. So the mass migration we see is not natural,
it is the outcome of that. And I'm sorry, I

(01:34:40):
think I forgot the second part of your question, something
about six in the Western Yeah, No, that's.

Speaker 9 (01:34:45):
Okay, there's a really good explanation. It's really important. I
think we should just take a little advertising break here,
all right. Yeah, So the second part I wanted to
ask about was the importance of this diaspora community in

(01:35:06):
organizing for Kalistan. Right because in addition to all these
Indian government policies that you've outlined that are having these
impacts in Punjab, and like we shouldn't discount the climate
change is also having impacts there right, absolutely across the
whole indeed subcontinent. But in addition to that, right, there's
a very powerful and developed Khalistan movement in the United

(01:35:26):
States and in Canada that has been advocating for the
issue and raising i think awareness, and that's what's been
targeted now, right.

Speaker 8 (01:35:35):
Yeah, absolutely, because they understand that if you say that
word Carlostan with in Punjab, the police is working with them,
the judicial system is working with them. Every single facet
of any organizational institution is working for them. So I mean,
there's been many people that do mention it and they
end up dead, they end up in jails, They you know,

(01:35:58):
are silenced in one way or another. So despite that, though,
still many more folks that believe in Coligistan in Punjab
than they are anywhere else in the world, and they
are willing to say it openly despite the consequence of that,
which is essentially jail or death in the millions. So
what happens is when six are a forced to migrate

(01:36:22):
out or migrate out for any reason, they still hold
those aspirations with them. They still remember the plight of
their people in Punjab. So they have freedom of speech,
which is what you should have in democracies, which they
don't have in India. So when they have freedom of speech,
they express those aspirations to the point where there are

(01:36:43):
people being killed all over the world. We named Canada
and the US, but there was an activist poisoned in
the UK just last year. There's been folks killed in Pakistan,
which is on the other side of the border for India,
and they tried to assassinate sick in New York and
as recently as a few days ago, they tried to
asassinate a stick here in California. So, I mean, the

(01:37:06):
movement is very much alive and it's on the up,
and I think the Indian state understands this, but they're
having a tough time kind of wrapping their head around
how to silence folks outside of their borders. That's really
where we are, because within their borders it's full on suppression.

(01:37:26):
You can't say it. Folks within pajob When they leave
Punjab and they come to different countries, their eyes kind
of finally open as to why they were in the
conditions they were in. It's almost like when you're in
the middle of a storm. You don't know who you're
in a storm, but when looking on the outside in
you're seeing, hey, this is a very intentional and systematic

(01:37:48):
genocide that is happening against our people. So that is
one aspect of it. But it's becoming more organized, and
you know, there's a referendum, there's intellectuals, there's differences happening,
there's grats, roots organization and so fix have. The concept
called chardvikola and Chardikaala is essentially ever rising spirits, is

(01:38:10):
that no matter the dire conditions that you may be under,
you still keep the hope for sovereignty and liberation alive.
And we've seen that in our history where our population,
due to the oppression and the massacres, dwindled down to
the hundreds and they were living in jungles, and even
then they would exit the jungles fight work to free

(01:38:34):
those being captured by the muguls at the time, or
the people in the region, and they would die fighting oftentimes.
And so now we're in a position where there's you know,
millions of us. We have no excuse. We keep the
aspiration for sovereignty alive, and we see it kind of
thriving in places where we're allowed to express ourselves.

Speaker 9 (01:38:56):
Yeah, so I think we should talk about this kind
of transnational repression. It's not by any means unique to India.
I mean, famously Russia loves to do this too, right,
But let's talk about some of these incidents. There was
a foiled assassination attempt in November of last year, right
that the DOJ arrested in India national for There was
a successful assassination in Canada, and an attempted assassination just

(01:39:20):
this week, as you say, in northern California.

Speaker 8 (01:39:23):
Yeah, I mean transnational repression is not a new phenomenon,
But what we'd like to do is actually have it
addressed for what it is. Why is it that the
American public understands or the Western public understands, that Russia doesn't.
But when it comes to India, it's almost seen as
this kind of yoga chai te, peace loving place, where

(01:39:47):
in reality, anyone from there and anyone that's been on
the other end of kind of oppression understands what India
truly is. So I think what we'd like to do is,
I don't think it it's unreasonable. This is a nation
that is very openly going on to other sovereign nations

(01:40:07):
land and targeting their citizens of any religious background. So
I think it's something that these governments should be taking seriously.
And the fact that it continues to happen, I think
is a reflection of how not seriously it's being taken.
If it was, you know, if there's you know, some
sort of public statements, sanctions, if there was you know,

(01:40:29):
a full on effort to say that this is a
violation of our sovereignty, it would perhaps slow down. But
it's continuing, and it's continuing rapidly, where we're seeing gunshots
and you know, even though Indian nationals are being extraed
added to the States, it's not stopping. So I think
more aggressive action is needed, and the fact that it

(01:40:50):
keeps happening is is just a reflection of how lacks
these governments have been as a result of these actions.

Speaker 9 (01:40:58):
Yeah, you don't see it referred to in the terms
of transnational oppression or really like by the US of
them at least as this this consolidated program. It seems
to be seen as like these incidents where then you know,
joining the dots and being like, yeah, this this is
an attempt at repression, you know, the murder of US
citizens in me these two cases, right, I know this

(01:41:18):
just happened with other diaspora communities sometimes the like DJ
or someone within that has reached out to people in
the community, especially people who are prominent, and been like,
there is a legitimate risk of someone trying to kill you.
Has that happened within the sick community?

Speaker 8 (01:41:33):
Oh yeah, absolutely. There's been multiple folks warned here in California,
in Canada, all over the US that you know, there
is legitimate threats to your life. Though it's a problem
because they cannot give you any more information than that.
So you ask, you know, where is the threat from

(01:41:53):
the say, we can disclose that it's it's confidential. So
obviously six who advocate for sovereignty and freedom of their
people that can Punjab know where where the threat is from. Yeah,
And I think the underlying understanding within the community is
that Western countries understand it as well. They're essentially waiting

(01:42:14):
for when it is politically you know, acceptable, when it
is politically beneficial for them to actually say something about it.
And I think we are an under knowing illusions that
you know that these guys are going to speak for
us for the sake of justice, that they're going to
you know, express our perspective and condemn these nations based

(01:42:34):
on the protection of six. We know our liberation is
going to be the result of our efforts. But I
think from a lobbying perspective, from an expression perspective, I
think it is not unreasonable of us to expect that
of governments where we are citizens.

Speaker 9 (01:42:52):
Yeah, Like it's kind of the trade that you make
grein theory, like you give up a lot of freedom
and in turn you get safety in the Yeah, you're
giving up one and getting the other right now.

Speaker 8 (01:43:01):
Right right exactly. So like there have.

Speaker 9 (01:43:14):
Been various movements to Kaliftan, I think we should just
mention that like in the nineteen eighties, more like confrontational
attempts at Kalistan like independence were met with collective punishment
by the Indian state and non Sik people right within India.

Speaker 8 (01:43:29):
Yeah. So going dating back to the eighties, actually up
until eighty four, there was no United Movement for Independence
something else you call uprind On. It was kind of
the face of the thick rights movement, but in the
document that they had proposed to the government be an
unput cyber resolution, it wasn't a proposition for exclusively six

(01:43:50):
And I think that's an important point to continue to mention,
is that the way the Indian state portrays Kalistan is
anti Hindu, and I think they understand that to get
the public support, we need to portray movements or anything
really that's not in our interest as anti Hindu. We
need to make them feel threatened. Yeah, and if we

(01:44:11):
can do that, there will be support for us to
engage in these collective punishments. So in the eighties and nineties,
actually we call it the decade of disappearances is where
the Indian government went from village to village disappearing six
hundreds of thousands. Essentially, our last generation was wiped out
by the Indian state and they disposed of their bodies

(01:44:34):
and crematories, throw them in rivers, and you know, like
we basically say that there's a sixth river of blood
in Bujab because that is just how many young men
were killed from eighty five to nineteen ninety five. So
there was an armed resistance against this. I mean, they
were seeing their sisters taken into police stations and all

(01:44:58):
kinds of atrocities committed against them. They were seeing their
brothers disappeared, their you know, their family members. So at
some point it is better to give up your life
than to live in these circumstances. And so that is
the brink that they were pushed to, and so we
lean on their example, though the movement does not quite

(01:45:20):
exactly at that same place today, we lean on their
example in that saying, these people were willing to give
up their lives for this cause, and us sitting in comfort,
even if it's you know, temporary safety, we have a
responsibility to move this movement forward. And with these new assassinations.

(01:45:41):
That's another important thing to mention. We've saw murders of
essentially the biggest Punjabi pops, said Musah in history. I mean,
this guy was in Hollywood, he was he was everywhere,
and when he started talking about Kadistan, when he started
making music regarding Punjab's rights, he was assassinated. And we're

(01:46:05):
seeing a new wave of Indian oppression. And for the
first time now people that thought, oh the eighties and nineties,
you know, you guys could be making something up. Maybe
the Indian government is right, you guys can be cut up.
Now they're seeing these assassinations happen in front of their eyes,
and they're making the judgment call as to who is
in the right and who is in And I think

(01:46:27):
that's another reason that the Kalaistan movement continues to gain
kind of solidarity within the six all over the world. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:46:35):
Sure, Like if if a government is trying to assassinate
people to just essentially saying something it disagrees with it,
it's not hard to see like who's in the wrong exactly.
So I wonder like, obviously there's a genuine threat to
seek communities here that continues to be a threat to
seek migrants from both political parties in the United States. Right, Yeah,

(01:46:56):
I'm interested, but not hopeful to see how their asylum
claims go based on this very obvious discrimination that you've outlined. Yeah,
and there's this threat to seek people in their home
rwnd in point job, how can people who are not sick,
who are not part of the community like be in solidarity?
How can they support what can they do to, like
I guess yet to stop people being murdered?

Speaker 8 (01:47:20):
Well, it sounds cliche to say awareness, but at this
point in time, they're just enough people aware of you know,
how in danger they are, because if they don't speak
for six today tomorrow, it could be them. And if
the Western governments are allowing foreign nations to come in

(01:47:40):
and they have embassies in these countries and they're allowing
these nations to kind of, you know, assassinate their citizens,
then what's to say that they won't be next to
Mouth's that age old saying there was no one left
to speak for me. That's part of it is you
have to understand the ramifications of ignoring something like this.
So I guess the first thing we'd like to see
is solidarity with that Alistine. Now most folks have an

(01:48:05):
opinion on it, or at least they've heard the word,
and they've seen Six everywhere, you know, where the folks
that walk around with turbans, and we're one of the
probably ninety nine percent of people you see with turbans
on our six and so we're a very visible community. However,
the reasons we're here, our plight, understanding of our background

(01:48:26):
is generally lacking. So I think the more that we
can understand who Six are, what their beliefs are, what
they're fighting for, why they're here to begin with, I think,
you know, there will be more political pressure regarding that,
and I'm seeing it starting to shift slightly, especially in
the past five to ten years. We've tipped the skills

(01:48:49):
just slightly, but we're far from from anywhere substantial.

Speaker 9 (01:48:52):
Yeah, I think for like, at least for my group
of friends, right, we go down to the border and
help people, and like we've encountered sick people because they
were always there with us helping us, right, Like some
sick folks flew down from other places and joined us
and stay out there and helped us feed people. And
like sick folks have shown up for other people substantially,

(01:49:14):
like all over the world, and I think it would
be really good to see people kind of reflect that
that solidarity that's kind of baked into the Sick religion
that it would be nice to see people doing that
in return. Absolutely, as Sikhs organized to their own community safety,
like obviously there's like a pressing danger to people, especially
people who are vocal, like a Sikhs organized to like

(01:49:38):
take care of one another in that sense.

Speaker 8 (01:49:40):
To some extent, yes, And again, a part of organization
and having support that comes from that organization is having
political power. And Six have political power in certain instances,
but they do not have a homeland or the resources
to kind of back it up. And you know politics
kind of lobbying works with money. So the fact that

(01:50:02):
we have these immigration problems a is a result of
India's efforts, but be the reason that they don't have
the support they need is because Six don't have a
homeland where they can say, all right, these are our beliefs,
these are our people. We support our people, we will
give them these resources that they need. So we're kind
of always operating at a grassroots level, and that's part

(01:50:26):
of the issue, is why there's not grand or large
scale change, but it continues to march forward. You know,
as generations grow up, as they become more involved in
different facets. A lot of people, especially in the United States,
are first generation. So our parents' generation was just focused
on surviving. How are we going to put food on

(01:50:46):
the table? Are were going to put a roof over
your head? And so the next generation kind of has
the opportunity to explore how they can make a difference
for their people. So Canada is getting there, the UK
is getting there, the US is behind, just because our
migration here was later than those places to that level,
but it's getting there.

Speaker 9 (01:51:06):
Yeah, that's good. So people want to find out more
about like the sick religion or like sick people are
very good resources that you could suggest.

Speaker 11 (01:51:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:51:16):
Absolutely, I think there's a very thorough background of what
calist On is. Just on callist on dot org, okay,
OKJ L I s t An dot org. They have publications,
they have documentaries. They've done a significant amount of work
to give the background of a Y six will never
stop fighting for freedom and be kind of what the

(01:51:39):
circumstances are today. So they've they've done a fairly good
job at that. Other than that, there's pages on social media.
There's free five ab which stands for freequin job. It's
it's on Twitter, TikTok okay and of course TikTok has
deleted that page many times. So where trying to figure

(01:52:00):
out where the alliances are there and Instagram of course
has done their thing based on their alliances. But there
are some resources out there, and of course if you
google it, the first things that are going to come
up is Times of India, you know, hindos Tun Times
basically saying this is a terrorist movement that's funded by

(01:52:22):
foreign governments to break the unity integrity of India. It's
a very rudimentary explanation, basically rooted in violence and how
these people just have it out for us. But the
reality is entirely different and the facts speak to that,
and I think the assassination attempts of today, the folks
that remain in Indian jails today, there's a UK citizen

(01:52:44):
in Indian jail. There are you know, folks that are
dying in Indian prisons. There's folks that have completed their
sentences six thirty plus years still sitting in Indian prisons.
So all of the circumstances today kind of speak to
why this movement and exists and will continue to exist.
So hopefully we can take advantage of some of the

(01:53:04):
resources out there.

Speaker 9 (01:53:05):
Yeah, that's great, and I hope people will go and
like educate themselves. You can look up caulsa Aid as
well if you're interested in like the sort of sortid
diarity and support side of Sikhism. Those people have been
great at the border, and I know they've done tons
about the great humanitarian work as well.

Speaker 8 (01:53:22):
Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:53:23):
Is there anything else that you'd like people to know
before we finish up here, like about six or about
college down things they can do to help.

Speaker 8 (01:53:30):
Yeah, I think I would, especially all the viewers. I
would like everyone to be open to the opportunity that
there are more people in the world that are seeking
to suppress and oppress than just what is told by
American media today. At least be open to the opportunity.
India is the world's biggest democracy today until it's not anymore,

(01:53:54):
and communities like the six who have experienced violent genocide
and today are experiencing the genocide. I think it's very
important to understand that the sick genocide never ended. It
continues today in different facets, in different forms. So that's
A and B the struggle for freedom and sovereignty, though

(01:54:18):
they want to put it on. So the Indian state
continuously tries to kill two birds with one stone. They
have enemity with Pakistan, so they tried to say that
Kadistan is a movement to the byproduct of kind of
focused on the interference, even though the facts speak otherwise
that if it's not Fakistan that killed hundreds of thousands

(01:54:38):
of six, it's not Focuistan that is assassinating six out
in these foreign countries. So they try to kill two
birds with one stone. India is definitely not a democracy.
I would like the viewers to be open to that
possibility as well and do your own research. Of course,
I have a perspective based on the circumstances that my
people have been through, and I would hope everyone can

(01:55:02):
form a more thorough understanding and that there is a
lot more happening, especially in that region than is politically
correct to say right now. So that's what I'll finish with.

Speaker 9 (01:55:15):
Yeah, that's great, thank you very much for that. I
think that's a really good place to finish.

Speaker 8 (01:55:18):
Thank you.

Speaker 9 (01:55:19):
So much for your time, and yeah, I really appreciate
you explaining that for.

Speaker 8 (01:55:22):
Us, of course. Thank you for having me, gentlemen.

Speaker 14 (01:55:45):
Welcome to happen here. I'm Andrew Siege from the YouTube
channel Andreism and I'm joined again by James Andrew. Welcome
back time to talk about political codes again.

Speaker 8 (01:55:56):
Oh good fine.

Speaker 14 (01:55:58):
Continuing with the work of Dennis Toura and Tim Wolforth
in their book on the Edge Political Cults Left and Right.
I've spoken before about the cult recruitment process, the contractory
positions held by cult members, ideological totalism, and the commonalities
of political cults, including rigid belief systems, immunity to fortification, authoritarianism,

(01:56:19):
arbitrary leadership, verification of leaders, intense activism, and the use
of loaded language. And speaking of loaded language. I know
that some people don't like the term cult because it is,
you know, very charged. I prefer personally. I know that
other terms are used, such as high control groups or

(01:56:40):
new religious movements, but I'm sticking to cults. My question
for you, James, do you think that you would be
susceptible to the cult?

Speaker 9 (01:56:53):
One hopes not. We spoke about authoritarian personalities before, and
I wonder if there's something similar for people who end
up in cults. But I'm sure there's something that could
get any of us. You know, we all have our
susceptibilities to these things.

Speaker 2 (01:57:08):
But I hope it wouldn't be for sure.

Speaker 14 (01:57:10):
I mean, one would like to think, you know, yeah,
I'm fuilt different than I would form into a cult.
But you know, really, especially considering the the paucity of
community these days, it's a little wonder that's one of
people find a home in such harmful and abusive spaces.

(01:57:33):
So previously I've touched on the LaRouche movements, the Newman tendency,
and the United Red Army of Japan, the latter of
which ended up killing some people. Today we'll be looking
at another case study, not merely as extreme but still
quite abusive, this time the infamous Marlene Dixon and her

(01:57:54):
Democratic Workers Party.

Speaker 8 (01:57:57):
Fun Times, Fun Times.

Speaker 14 (01:57:59):
Indeed, I also got some information on Dixon's activity, not
just from on the Edge, but also from the book
Bounded Choice, True Believers and Charismatic Cults by Janja Lalich,
who was actually a member of Dixon's Democratic Workers Party
for ten years. I like that a lot of books
written a bold cults are written by former cult numbers.

Speaker 9 (01:58:20):
Yeah, I mean I think it can be like the
point you raised your initial question, right, like everyone likes
to think they're specially and not susceptible, And I can
see how books written about them could be written from
a place of like condescension or you know, other ring.
So I think it's always good when folks who have
survived these things could write about them.

Speaker 14 (01:58:39):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean one of the
authors on the Edge, Tim Wore for a few who
also part of a Trotskyist cult. So these are people
who are speaking from experience.

Speaker 9 (01:58:50):
Yeah, I was writing about cults long before I started
this podcast, So there was some weird cut like behaviors
and endurance sports. And I spoke to an expert. She
also was a survivor and introduced me to some other
survivors of some more sort of classic left political cults.
And like, it wasn't something I ever really felt comfortable

(01:59:10):
like narrating their experiences. I would rather they narrate their experiences.

Speaker 7 (01:59:14):
Sure was.

Speaker 9 (01:59:14):
It was really interesting to see how many of them
were like so willing to write about it and to
talk about it and wanted to educate people about it.

Speaker 14 (01:59:23):
Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I'm particularly passionate
about political cults is just the way that they sap
the energy, the passion, and the drive, the potential of
what should be you know, people involved in you know,
really positive change, they end up getting sucked in and

(01:59:43):
the energies get sapped by these causes by these leaders.
They just sort of diverte their potential trajectory.

Speaker 7 (01:59:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:59:52):
Absolutely, I think anyone who was active in the United
States on the left in twenty twenty can attest to
the ability of some of these groups to just cut
the soul out of a popular movement which was making
a positive difference at one point.

Speaker 14 (02:00:08):
Right, So let's get into it. Marlene Dixon was born
into a family that valued education and intellectual pursuit. From
a young age, she was immersed in an environment that
fostered deep appreciation for learning and critical thinking, and this
foundation significantly influenced her future path set in the stage
for her academic and political endeavors. Growing up, Dixon showed

(02:00:32):
an early interest in sociology, a field that would later
become her academic and professional focus. She pursued higher education
with a passion, earning her undergraduate degree and going on
to complete a PhD in sociology in the University of California.
The doctoral studies were marked by a rigorous exploration of
social structures and equalities. Themes were resonate throughout her career

(02:00:56):
as a sociology professor. Dixon's classroom was more than just
a place for academic instruction. It was a forum for
radical ideas and critical debate. Her teaching was infused with
a strong feminist perspective, challenging traditional notions and encouraging students
to question societal norms. This feminist ideology was not just
an academic interest, but a driving force behind her activism

(02:01:19):
and the formation of her political beliefs. However, even early
on magain and science, that something's a bit of a wry.
According to some of her former students and colleagues, it
was also Dune those years when she became interested in
mass social psychology and group behavior modification. She studied draber J.
Lufton's work on thought reform. She studied and admired total communities, accults,

(02:01:43):
and other directed methods of behavioral control such as Alcoholics Anonymous.
She believed that these programs provided positive ways to change people.
Dixon's early academic career also provided her with a platform
to connect with like minded individuals who shared her passion
for social justice. These connections were proved crucial as she
moved beyond the confines of academia and into the world

(02:02:05):
of radical political activisim Her political awakening came during a
time of significant social and political upheaval. The sixties and
seventies were decades marked by civil rights movements, anti war protests,
and a crowing dissillusion one with the status quo. Dixon
was deeply influenced by the principles of Marxism, Leninism and Maoism.

(02:02:25):
Marxism provided her with a free for understanding class struggle
and exploitation inherent and capitalist societies. Lenin's organizational principles, particularly
the concept of the vanguard party, were also integral to
Dixon's political thought. Lenin argued, of course, that a disciplined,
centralized party was necessary to lead the wildern.

Speaker 2 (02:02:43):
Class to revolution.

Speaker 14 (02:02:45):
Dixon adopted this idea wholeheartedly, seeing the need for a
tightly controlled, hierarchical organization to con guide the proletaria towards socialism.
Mao Sadong's influence on Dixon was particularly evident in her
approge to internal party denis. Mao's emphasis on continuous revolution
and self criticism as tools for maintaining ideological purity resonated

(02:03:07):
with Dixon. She implemented rigorous criticism and self criticism sessions
within her future party, a practice that aimed to eliminate
bourgeois tendencies and reinforced commitment to the party's goals. Dixon's
political engagement wasn't limited to theoretical discussions. She was actively
involved in radical movements, participating in protests and organizing efforts

(02:03:29):
as well to challenge existing power structures. Her activism extended
beyond national borders, as she connected with international revolutionary movements
and drew inspiration from their struggles. The culmination of these
influences and experiences led to the founding of the Democratic
Worker's Party in nineteen seventy four. Dixon's vision for the

(02:03:59):
Democratic Worpless Party or DWP was deeply rooted in this
idea of Leninist democratic centralism, Maoist self critique, and Marxist
anti capitalism. But beyond Marx, Lenin and Mao, the New
Communist Movement or NCM played a significant role in shape
and Dixon's approach. The NCM was a diverse collection of

(02:04:20):
groups that emerged in the late nineteen sixties and early
nineteen seventies advocating for a revitalized communist movement in the
United States. The NCM sought to build new Marxist Leninist
organizations that could address the shortcomings of the old left
and provide a fresh, militant alternative. Dixon was, of course,
deeply inspired by the ncm's emphasis on billionaire revolution sharing

(02:04:41):
vanguard and his commitment to rigorous theoretical work and practical activism.
At the time, the UP was getting a lot of
credit for being one of the few feminist and women
led organizations in the new Communist movement, which allowed the
group to draw radicals from leftist circles as well as
the women's movement and the gay movement. When most NCM
groups were virulently a homophobic and dismissive of feminism, the

(02:05:05):
DWP had a unique alert. Early on in her political career,
Marline Dixon also contributed theoretically to the DWP with the
concept of proletarian feminism, which allowed the DWP to stand
up both against class prejudice and sexism and for the
equality of all people. Over time, though her concept of

(02:05:26):
proletariy and feminism became less prominent in the DWP's approach
and in the literature. In the early stages, the concept
of proletary and feminism attracted a lot of people, including
jan Jalalich, the author of Bounded Choice, who had been
part of the WP. The early days of the WP
were marked by a significant effort to recruit and train

(02:05:48):
new members. Dixon and her close associates focused on building
a catre of dedicated revolutionaries who were deeply committed to
the party schools. These numbers were not just activists, but
Addiolodge called soldiers, prepared to dedicate their lives to the
cause of socialism. Recruitment often targets had young intellectuals and
activists who disillusioned with mainstream politics and eager for radical change.

(02:06:12):
In this early period, the parties organized study groups, protests,
and community outreach programs, all aimed at raising political consciousness
and building support for the party's revolutionary agenda. Dixon's charisma
and intellectual rigor inspired many, but her leadership style also
had its challenges. Building on she had very authoritarian tendencies

(02:06:35):
influenced by her admiration for mal Zadan, and it led
to a highly controlled and often repressive internal atmosphere. Members
were subjugated to rigorous criticism and self criticism sessions, and
these sessions could be psychologically taxing, creating an atmosphere of
constant scrutiny and pressure. This is exemplary of social psychologist

(02:06:58):
Anthony Prakkanis and Aaronson's seven step guide to creating a
political cult, which included crucially maintaining a rigid internal regime.
In these early years, we can also see the signs
of the other steps, such as creating a distinct social reality,
building commitment through dissonance reduction, sending members to proselytize, and
fixating members on a promised land, the promised land being,

(02:07:21):
of course, international communism. The DWP crew steadily in its
early years. Full time members called cadres or militants typically
numbered between one hundred and twenty five and one hundred
and fifty people, but in certain periods there were between
three hundred and one thousand members at various creative affiliation.
One of the d WP's primary areas of focus was

(02:07:42):
labor organizing. Dixon and her colleagues saw the labor movement
as a critical battleground for the struggle against capitalism, and
they dedicated significant resources to supporting labour strikes, organizing union drives,
and advocating for workers' rights. The DWP's members often worked
closely with existing labor union providing support and promoting a
more radical, class conscious approach labor activism, and this involvement

(02:08:06):
helped party gain credibility and trust among workers, who saw
the WP as genuine allies in their struggle. Members were
also active in campaigns for affordable housing, health care, and education,
working to build coalitions with other progressive organizations and community groups.
Political education was another cornerstone of the activities. Dixon believed

(02:08:28):
that a well informed and ideologically grounded membership was essential
for the party's success, so they had regular study groups
with jobs and lectures and Marxist theory, current events, and
revolutionary strategy. And these activities are not limited to members,
but were also used as tools for outreach. Eventually, the
party's activities extended beyond its initial base in San Francisco

(02:08:49):
and reached other parts of California, even gaining attention on
a national scale. Dixon's ability to connect with other radical
movements and a strategic vision for the WP's role in
the broader of lutionary struggle had played a significant part
in this growth, but despite their successes behind the scenes
was not too hot, to put it lightly. While Dixon's

(02:09:12):
theoretical acumen and charm had attracted many to her cause,
her methods of maintaining control within the party with what
gave it its cult connotations. One of the central aspects
of Dixon's control was her personal domination over the party
and its members. Dixon established herself as the undisputed leader
of the EWP, demanding absolute loyalty and obedience. Leylish described

(02:09:36):
her as a large, loud woman who exuded a type
of chrisma that could be difficult for outsiders to comprehend.
Her personal style was abrasive, and she was stern and domineering. Nonetheless,
Dixon was able to exact commitment from her followers, an
entailed devotion to her person and undying defense of her
actions as their leader. So we see a peculiar and

(02:09:58):
almost quanting resemblance to others the historical movements, like Heaven's Gates.
On the surface, they seemed worlds apart. One is steeped
in partical idiology, the other in spiritual salvation. But dive
deeper and you'll find that the currents beneath their surface
flew with striking similarities. Take for instance, the role of charisma.

(02:10:18):
Like Apple White and the Nettles of Heaven's Gate. Dixon
used words as her craft, her instrument, speaking to eager audiences,
weaving a vision of hope that drew people in. She
wasn't just persuede so she was magnetic. She created a
myth for herself that seemed to fit with the revolutionary
zie guys at the time. Laalish describes that when she
first joined the party, Dixon was a tower in presence

(02:10:42):
who created an intense, almost sacred bond with them. LATAs
speaks of how the followers were awed by her, desperate
to follow her vision, willing to endure her criticism just
to stay in her good graces. And when Dick Sun
would spend some time away and came back, they would
spend long, cruel and meetings where she would dissect every

(02:11:03):
decision they made and criticize everything they did in her absence,
showing them all the ways they had fallen short. It
was brutal, but it also reinforced her authority over them,
as they wanted to get her approval at all times.
One of her documents on the development of Leninist democracy
told the followers that the leadership was about authority, not popularity,

(02:11:26):
and whether we liked her or not, we had to
accept as the ultimate authority in the party. Lachi also
says that they were made to believe that being part
of the WP was a privilege. Authority wasn't just accepted,
it was revered, and this is the foundation of their
relationship with Dixon. She was the leader, the guide in force,
and they were the followers, committed, obedient, and always seeking

(02:11:48):
her approval. And yet there was a secret at the
heart of her. She was a myth maker. Her backstory
was curated, embellished to paint herself as a champion of
civil rights when the reality was far less dramatic. Systems

(02:12:14):
of control was another area where the DWP and Heaven's
Gates shared common ground. Both groups thrived on a mix
of carrot and stick promises of a better future, harsh
discipline for failure. Leaders would live apart from their followers,
hidden away while their followers toiled and sacrificed. Every day
was a test, every misstep a reason for criticism, and

(02:12:35):
leaders were never revealing themselves fully. They created a distance.
They were heightened their mystique and their authority. In the DWP,
there was a very strict hierarchy and chain of command.
Dixon was at the top. She had a select few
leaders below her, and decisions were made top down. Democratic centralism,

(02:12:58):
which was leninistact like the theoretically allowed for debate and democracy,
was really there to enforce obedience. Members were also split
into tears. He had trial members, candidate members, and general members.
Each level carrier and distinct privileges and obligations. An advancement
was up to Dixon. She decided who leveled up in

(02:13:21):
the party. Sanctions for rule violations ranged from increased duties
to expulsion, the severest being expulsion with prejudice effectively erase
in the individual. From party history and the party's first purge,
notably the quote unquote Lesbian Purge, exemplified Dixon's control tactics.
As a target had perceived threat within the group and

(02:13:43):
set a precedent for internal purges that instilled fair and
loyalty among the members, and then Lastly, there was transcendent belief.
Another area where Heaven's Skates and the DWP had common ground.
For Heav's Skater was a more transcendent human life to
reach a higher plane of existence. For the WP, it
was what transforming society reaching utopia through class struggle. The

(02:14:07):
daily life of the WP members was highly regimented. Dixon
had strict routines and expectations demanded complete dedication to the
party's activities. Members were subjected to intense scrutiny, particularly those
of the evil middle class backgrounds, and this method of
course effectively suppressed descent and ensured the members remained tightly

(02:14:27):
bound to Dixon's vision. This rerelent their schedule that had
them within long hours both in their day jobs and
unparty related tasks, led them little time for pursuits or
outside relationships, which also helped Dixon maintain control over their lives.
By limited members interactions with outsiders, Dixon minimized the risk
of external influences undermining her authority, and this isolation extended

(02:14:51):
to live in arrangements as well as members lived communally,
which further reinforced their dependence on the party and their
separation from mainstream society. The combination of these control mechanisms
created a highly controlled and insular environment within the WP,
as members were constantly monitored by both Dixon and the
other payers to ensure that any deviation from the party

(02:15:12):
line was quickly identified and addressed. The use of fair
guilt and psychological manipulation kept members in line. Of course,
the control was not just psychological. It was physical, because
when you're isolated on your working all the time, your
body is going to break down, your exhausted, your burnt out,
and the emotional strain of constant criticism doesn't exactly help either.

(02:15:33):
But all of this were to keep party members in
their place. The contriversies surrounding the WP's methods and leadership
eventually drew attention from both within the leftist movement and
from external observers. Critics argue that Dixon's authoritarianism when the
parties cut like practices were antithetical to the principles of
socialism and genuine revolutionary activity, but these criticisms did little

(02:15:57):
to all to the internal dynamics of the WP during
its peak. In the early days, Dixon and her followers
truly believed her revolution was just around the corner. By
the nineteen eighties, recruitment was faltering, purges was narrow in
the organization's focus. At the WP's aggressive tactics had led
to conflict. Without the leftist groups, Dixon had grown dissolution.

(02:16:20):
She had begun to see the local struggles they were
taking part in as insignificant as mere reformist gestures. She
moved the party from distributing a local newspaper to publishing
dense academic journals. She developed a stain for world systems theory,
which had once been a guiding light in her movement,
and rejected it as anti socialist and cynical. In her eyes,

(02:16:43):
the United States working class was no longer a beacon
for revolution. Instead, she placed her faith in the USSR
in Eastern Europe, in distant lands where she believed the
future of socialism lay. Her frequent travels to conferences in
Europe and her focus on theoretical debates needed her members,
as the heart of their struggle had been replaced with
her distant, abstract vision that none of them could grasp.

(02:17:06):
But the real breaking point came with her change and strategies.
Dixon began to see the Petibo Rossi as potential allies
instead of enemies, as they had always been. A radical
shit from ideology that her party had been taught beyond
all that her drinking had become more uncontrolled than usual,
and her abuse of the members had increased. So in
late nineteen eighty five, a few of her members decided

(02:17:29):
that enough was enough. While Dixon was away on one
of her many trips, they gathered in secret, shared their frustrations,
and they'd bear the truth over what had become of
the party. When Dixon returned, she was met with the
harshest reality of war. They told her that the party
was over, that she was expelled, and that they were
dissolving the party. Her reaction was, of course, a mix

(02:17:51):
of disbelief and anger, and a final bit of confrontation
with the collapse of everything she had built. Afterwards, there
was of course a mesteric The members have an endured
abuse for so long, including financial abuse, took it upon
themselves to divide the assets amongst themselves as a final
small compensation for the years they had given. Each person

(02:18:13):
received a poetry sum, a fraction of what they had invested.
But at last, the party's ideological crises weekend leadership and
internal strife resulted in the organization's dissolution. The party was
indeed over, and they could start their life on you.

Speaker 8 (02:18:32):
Hey.

Speaker 2 (02:18:32):
We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from
now until the heat death of the Universe.

Speaker 6 (02:18:38):
It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

Speaker 3 (02:18:40):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

Speaker 1 (02:18:55):
Thanks for listening.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

It Could Happen Here News

Follow Us On

Host

Robert Evans

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

1. Stuff You Should Know

2. Stuff You Missed in History Class

3. Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}It Could Happen Here Weekly 145