March 30, 2023 • 29 mins
Mia continues her conversation with Nick about the recent strikes and how rank and file pressure and organization can transform unions
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to do do it can happen here a podcast increasingly
about nurses strikes and yeah, this is part two of
our Inny of You with Nick, a nurse in the UK. Enjoy.
We've entered the tafty Turviya land where the RCNC used
to be the people who are like leading on the
militancy in this in this French where yeah, yeah, And
I think part of it comes down to is because
the RCM was historically for a sneaking part city was
(00:28):
not a union, became a union late in the day
for then eight was for ages anti strike. A lot
of unions because like we can talk about the John
critique of unions and particularly like institutional unions, how they
service providers, how they build up like a protective bureaucracy
against Burton struggle or against like glass roots militancy. The
(00:51):
RCM it's not a particularly democratic as these things go,
but it doesn't have that kind of built up institutional
inertia in the trade union side because historically it hasn't
needed it, and that meant I think it was actually
far more susceptible. It's two grassroots pressure and militancy then
(01:11):
some of the other more established unions were and that's all, Oh, sorry, no,
and that kind of like was the thin end of
the webs that the rcenter taker's bostrong stance over the
pay rise in response to like grassroots organizing and like
a demand from the grassroots to do that, which then
results in them like batting for strike action first, which
(01:32):
then meant other unions had to and then we got
the and then the cascade of like strikes in the
NHS have occurred since then. So this is this is
a very very broad question to be asking, but how
how have the strikes has been going. That's kind of
(01:59):
a differ got one to say. So Scotland, for instance,
has not been called out, has not actually had any
strike days because the Scottish government went into negotiations to
begin with and then made an offer, it was rejected,
strikes were announced, they made another, agreed to come back
to negotiations. So like it's been effective in getting something
(02:21):
moving in Scotland. Their current offer of fifteen percent over
two years, so six something this year, five something next
year is currently being voted on by the RCA membership.
It's not it's not a good but it's a significant
movement of what came before Wales. The Welsh government, after
saying no, we can't have any more money. We can't.
(02:44):
We literally can't because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster won't
give us any more budget for this has now made
an improved, an improved offer. It's crap, but it's like
something it's forcome to shift when they were claiming it
was physically impost for them to do it, which every
single time, like I can think of exactly one time
(03:05):
ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and
it was actually true. But this is not like that.
That was that was like what Norfolk Southern in like
like the nineteen seventies, and it was only true once
and it's never been true ever since then. Like you
will hear this from every fucking employer who you attempt
to go on track against, and they're always lying, like
(03:26):
every single time. What I will say is like in
the case of Wales, it is very true. The Welsh
government's budget is set by Westminster, by the CeNSE of government,
so it's a lie, but it's a plausible lie. Yeah,
And Wales is generally massively Wales is like some of
the highest rates of child poverty outside of Eastern Europe.
(03:46):
In Europe, the reasons. Part of the reasons for this
is because the Wales government is chronically underfunded. Yeah yeah,
due to political desinis has made in England, but it's
still not true. And then in England, like it's got
to the point where a government who are categorically opposed
(04:07):
to any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to
negotiating tables. So from that, although a suspective, loads of
preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, and they're going
to not make a credible offer in my view and
as a stalling tactic, but the fact they even chose
to come to the table at all. I hate saying
this because it makes it's the kind of thing that
(04:27):
makes people complacent. But that is actually quite big that
the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come
to negotiating table. Stopped hiding behind oh there's an independent
paybody that decides these things. Stop saying it's we can't
afford to fund the NHS anymore. Actually just coming and
sitting at the table at all to negotiate. It's like
a big movement of itself. Now if we talk about
(04:50):
numbers of participation in strikes. There's been a lot of difficulties,
a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated
in the strikes as should have been. I will be
frank and say so now we're going to talk about
the derogations, the situation delegations, which is like the RN
(05:11):
voluntarily saying we will allow this many people to continue
working these days and these areas in order to maintain
patient safety, which is, on one hand, we don't want
any patients to die obviously, on the other hand, it's
a very easily abused stance to take. And there are
just nurses who are other trade unions who who aren't
(05:32):
a trade unions as well, and ultimately, if they want
that not to happen, they need to just come to
the table earlier. And so this results in a process
where so by to you and like time sensitive chemo
and pediatric A and ees were derogated by default, and
(05:54):
then there was an agreement of if the wards had
less than like nighttime numbers, we would agreed for a
small amount of our of our membership to go in
to work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for
the sake of patients safety. But that had to be
(06:15):
applied form on a case by case bas basis. But
there's a couple of problems with this one. Trust just
not taking it seriously, lying and not trying to establish
these things to make accurate requests, leaving it to the
last minute, and then asking for blanket derogations. We don't
(06:35):
know if it's going to be safe or not. Managers
like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and
to giving incorrect information to their staff, people not understanding
what was of wasn't derogated, And just generally it was
a system that was very open to abuse, and so
like a lot of a lot of things were just
(06:55):
left open in general or like that shouldn't have been
But at the same time, I know that it didn't
happen in every case, but like there was a success
in like members the strike committee going around wards and
saying no, you're over number, you need to come out,
and people doing it. Of like surgeries being canceled, like
(07:17):
elective surgeries, nontime sensitive surgeries being canceled due to it,
of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving
each thing needed to happen they wanted needed to happen.
Those days, all of it's built up. Even if we
didn't get the full amount of people we should have
had out on strike, on strike really built up the
pressure significant degrees from them to then put the pressure
(07:39):
up the chain of the NHS to the government's like
we can't keep on going on like this. And at
the same time each set of strikes, the number of
people participating did increase, so like, for instance, I've just
got the government statistics from that the fifteenth of December,
(08:00):
I think it is so this was the first strike
day that was called. It was nine thousand, nine hundred
and ninety nine absences due to industrial action. Then on
the twentieth it was eleven thousand, five hundred and nine.
Then on the eighteenth and nineteenth of January, and just
(08:22):
one important factor, they didn't call all hospitals out at once.
Again I think a mistake of strategic mistakes should have
gone hard, gone hard fast. But the argue was we
just we don't have the facilities to organize all of
this effectively on all of these last amounts, because like
it was a huge amount of trusts they needed to
do that with. But then on those days it was
(08:45):
then eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty three and eleven thousand,
two hundred and nineteen across those two days. Then in
February it was fifteen thousand, nine hundred ninety eight, and
then I'm fourteen on the second day, fourteen thousand and
(09:05):
then fifty eight to people, which is far lower than
it should have been. I can't remember how many people
there are nursed are on the NHS, so I should
have had that statissecretity, but it's not an inconsiderate amount.
It meant lots about patients appointments being canceled, a lot
of surgeries being canceled, a lot of chaos and stress
for the managers of the NHS and therefore for the government.
(09:26):
Are looking really bad for them. And it's a clear
upwards trajectory, which meant that when they are seeing announced
we're going to do two days consecutive, we're not. We're
going to keep it going through the night, which they
han't done previously, and we're not doing derogations. I to
you will be staffed. I think we're not doing anything else.
I think no even it TOU wasn't staffed. We'd considered
(09:47):
on a case by case basis, we won't be considered
what sorry, intensive care, I see you for America. Actually okay, yeah,
So that meant that at that point the government prob like, okay,
we need to move to a new delaying tactic. They're
not just going to give up. And I think with that,
as it went on, like people were itching and itching
(10:10):
to go further. And so for instance, like A and
E was derogated, So which is the area I work in?
But like a lot of people and this is reflective
of like most areas that were derogated. When I spoke
to people, we weren't them like, no, we need to
be out, we need to be out the picket line.
And like after the first two rounds, there was also
(10:32):
a growing effort to like try and find out from
the membership of what the actual situation was. So unlike
staffing on the wards, because all wards are chronically understaffed.
So when they said, oh, well neath this, aren't people
who say, no, we know that's alive, we know one
nights there's actually only three registered nurses. There's not the
four you're claiming and stuff like that. It's again I
think it was a really positive move in like embedding
(10:57):
a kind of like workers, inquiry of workers nor it's
about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that
had been quite a top down process. But yeah, and
I'm kind of worried about how this delay and break
in the strike action will affect that momentum that had
(11:17):
been building up. I think, like to a large degree,
people are like itching to go again, and I think
that desire to go again is building as it goes.
Like when it initially happened, but this social instally called off,
there was a lot of like trust, like in like
the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people,
there was a lot of like people thinking of at
(11:37):
least I don't know if this was represent general opinion,
but people being quite Vocnate Beau say no, we need
to trust like Pat knows what she's doing, they wouldn't
have called it off of this thing. It's like it's
getting more and more those people being like, no, we
need to, we need to go, we need to we
need to get back on the picket line. And there's
been a petition that's been going around that's been getting
quite a bit of news, like setting out some hard
(12:00):
lines like four to the end R and C leadership
about what kind of stuff they should accept, like saying, no,
we need to stick to the above inflation busting, we
need to not compromise on this, we need to not
compromise in this, which is I think got eight hundred
and eighty signatures at the moment. It doesn't sound like
a huge amount, but like again you're going through quite
(12:22):
a lot of immersia of like attitude of like you've
got to leave it to the leadership among the membership,
even when they were unhappy with it. And it's only
a thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCNSU where
the RCM works to call an extraordinary general meeting, which
they can do pretty much whatever it wants. And that's
how the leadership in two and eighteen was kicked out
(12:42):
after the bad pay deal. Then well that's really interesting. Yeah,
so like the very undemocratic except for this one particular thing. Yeah,
is it is it a normal thing? That? Is it
like a normal thing for unions in the in the
UK or is that just like a most most I
think all unions have of an amount of people set
(13:03):
amount where if like memberships calling for an extraordinary general meeting,
they have to do it. The RCNS one is really
low interesting essentially, and like there were some moves were
like people in the r C a least say, oh,
we need to change it, we need to give it
a v we need we need to raise it to
be more in line with other unions. But that again
(13:25):
is something that will have to that if that does happen,
that kind of change we'd have to go through like
a membership wide vote. It's not something the executive leadership
could just impose. That's good. Yeah, So like there is
(13:48):
a process of like these strikes were like a result
of like increasing general level of militancy with among nurses
in general and among NHS workers. And I think particularly
because everyone knows it's awful the situation, and then with
like a slightly more organized than spearing it the resulted
(14:12):
in that in that petition in twenty eighteen, arguing for
stuff at like compass and things, and then that's all
actual strike has like got the membership feeling like they
should have a more active role, and I think it's
pushing things in a positive direction, even though I think
the rc AND leadership has gotten to a point where
(14:33):
by mistake, it ended up way ahead of the other
unions and it's now trying to beg attle, but I don't.
I think there's a lot of potential for like more
glass roots organized by the membership to prevent that happening. Yeah.
We are in a difficult position though that the time
is running out. Strike mandates in the UK only last
for six months. We are when the government that greed
(14:58):
negotiations were to and a half months left of the mandate.
It's now two months left of the mandate. You have
to give two weeks notice before strike action. Oh so
that's that that that's that's what to sort of like
run out the clock strategies about on their side. Okay,
that makes sense exactly. Now, nothing's to stop us from reballoting. Yeah,
but it will be a whole process. It has to
(15:19):
be a month. You have to go through the mail. Yeah,
it will be drawn out. We'll buy them a lot
more time. Yeah, that's postal workers I think are on
strike again today too, I think maybe, I think so,
let me, I've got the strike calendar up on my computer.
(15:39):
Let's see who's on strike and absolutely fraud. I have
it on my other computer, but I don't have it
on this one. Yeah, so days the fifteen today Amazon's
on striking, Coventry, the BBC's regil services, the civil service,
which will kind of be equivalent to like a federal
(16:02):
stuff um in America. So like fince, it's my dad,
who's a Health and safety inspector is on strike today,
h MRC, which is the tax officers on strike, junior
doctors on strike, off stead, the School of Structors on
spike strike, the rail the two main rail unions on strike,
(16:23):
teaches on strike, and university stuff on strike. Not the
postal service today. But yeah, yeah, well I guess, I
guess I wanted to ask a bit about that too,
about sort of just what what's been happening. I don't
know what what what you see as sort of the
potential of the of the broader strikes have been happening,
because this is this is a I don't know, I mean,
it's not it's not it's not like a like it's
(16:46):
it's not like a nineteen seventies style like strike wave,
but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK
in the last decade. It's it's big like that isn't
the level of cross union corporation and talks that you
would want. There's a lot of like people turning up
to each other's picket lines. There's a lot of like
(17:07):
solidarity present, but it's not coalescing into like a into
like a unified movement, which you're hoping to be. Although
I do think if something doesn't change, it is moving
in that direction. And like the Conservative government is at
like an all time loan it's popularity ratings. Yeah, I think.
(17:30):
I don't know if you're aware from this quote from
Margaret that's about how her main political goal was remaking
the soul of Britain away because like up until that
period there was a very strong trade union movement in
the UK that it had like one of the best
social democracies in the world, like comparable to Scandinavia today
(17:55):
it was. It was far more like a collective attitude
in the UK. And like Margaret factor is explicit. I
can't remember the exact quote explicit project and the project
or the Conservative Party at the time. Let's not put
it all on her, great woman thee of histories, as
bad as great man of history, to move the soul
of the like general social attitude and personality of like
(18:16):
people in Britain away from that like orientations like community
and collective struggle and action. And there is a part
of me that feels like this is a move away
from that, because like everyone you go to, there's winging
about like an inconvenience caused by strike, but pretty much
(18:36):
everyone is like, yeah, those they have it. It's awful
for them all the strike drivers. Good on them for
standing up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing
up for themselves. Good on postal workers were standing up
for themselves. Good on nurses were standing up for themselves.
Like the amount of like stuff I've been brought by
people on the picket lines has been in It's like
(18:57):
I each to day I've been like rolling down for
hill from my hospital to my house like a bloated
stomach from like stuff members of the public import and
dropped off at the pick it line. It's um. It
makes me feel like it's there is the optimist part
of me. It does feel like there is a reorientation
in general of British public to the idea that we
(19:19):
don't have to put up with this, yeah, and you
don't have to struggle and try and get it on
your own. And like it's early days yet, but I
do see something positive moving in that direction in the UK.
As to this strike wave, Yeah, that's a that is
I don't know that that is great news from a
place that does not usually generate great news. This is
(19:41):
like the this is the deeply optimistic part of me.
On the other hand, do you have like bad a
lot of bad news coming out of the UK. Yeah,
Like this strike wave is good news. It is the
fact that it's happening in the NTS in particular, which
has been so resistant to industrial action historically, and also
just because of how what significant part of the economy
(20:04):
it is as well, because like you know, the NHS
is the eighth biggest employee in the world. Wow, you
know it's in the world. That's that's wild. Yeah, Like
it used to be like the fifth biggest in the world. Wow,
it's yeah. It used to only be that the American Army,
the Chinese army, McDonald's of Walmart would be it would
(20:26):
be overtaken by Amazon and such now but yeah, yeah,
like like strike action, so like from like a worker's perspective,
like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce,
nurses in the NHS, the biggest flow in the world,
leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK,
(20:47):
leaving aside their history of the opposition, like the active
opposition to the idea of striking within nursing historically in
the UK, is huge news and something to be hopeful about,
and then put into context of the more border strikeway
in the UK and within the NHS in general, this
is huge and it is a sign I think or
(21:08):
positive change and like reortation towards workplace struggle occurring. I think.
So I've now heard two different places do this, which
(21:30):
was I heard this in Chile in twenty nineteen, and
I heard this also on my picket line at the
University of Chicago in twenty nineteen, which is I had like,
I this is this is the place deal liberalism was born,
and we will kill it here. And I mean those
are the three places, Yeah, Chicago and the UK. Yeah,
I think. I think also arguably Germany, although that has
(21:51):
a whole other The d Libs aren't I think Aldo
Libs from my understanding of from listening to some things
about years ago, it's more of a family resemblance than
the exact same thing as neoliberalism. Yeah, I mean, I
think if we're gonna I think they got absorbed into
the neoliberal bubble so far as like like they're they're
(22:14):
the order libs are where the neo liberals got the
sort of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy,
like the legal bureaucracy from like hyak is also like
heavy of all. Yeah that that's that's a whole this right,
But yeah, like it is. It is encouraging to me
that it's like, I don't know, like like the it
really does seem like in the places where the liberalism
(22:34):
was bored, it's like it's starting to come apart. Yeah,
And you know, I know people people have been predicting
the death neoliberalism for like long, well almost as long
as I've been alive. But I don't know this this
like the fact that it's happening in these places seems
(22:54):
different than it does seem look on it. I think
it is significan can I think I'm I am cautiously
excited every time I hope something bad happens, but I
am hopeful now. And you know, my brain isn't magic,
so it can't be a cause of effect there. Yeah,
(23:18):
but I don't know. I mean, like you are the
second person I've interviewed from the UK who actually seemed
to be like somewhat optimistic about the direction you could
possibly be going, which is the first time I've heard
that in Like, I mean, I guess you're people who
are optimistic about Corbin, but yeah, I don't know. This
is this is the first sort of like signs of
that since I don't know a long time, and I think, yeah,
(23:42):
look like if I was honestly the American listeners, like,
if turf Island isn't doomed, then we're not doomed either.
I don't know. He's what I canna say. You're over
taking us on that. It's true. Yeah we have Yeah,
I am Yeah, I don't know when this is out,
but I'm gonna I'm going to be honest man. Like
there's a lot of ways the UK is better than
(24:02):
the MASTER. Yeah, the US like it's a it's a
real disaster, like it's it's yeah. Yeah, I mean I
think we're both equally banned a lot of ways. Yeah,
I think the things and the things that like people
in the US look at England say this is awful,
and the things people in the UK look at the
US and say this is awful. It's it's kind of
(24:24):
a a child looking at their parent and being pissed
off at them, and a child and a child and
a parent looking at their child and being disappointed in them. No, no,
you both suck. It's family resemblance. It's we hate us
for It's a narcissism of small differences, like yeah, between
(24:44):
the US and the uk K a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I guess do you have anything else do you want
to say about the strikes? I think the fact it
got this far is incredible. There's so much further that
needs to go. Um, I'm really excited and I'm really scared.
(25:05):
I think this is a potential for like a turning
point around, both for the NHS, but for my profession
for nursing and also like in general in the context
the widestrike page for the UK. But you know, the
higher the stakes, the higher the perils. Like this is
our I think this is our fight to lose essentially,
(25:29):
Like I think if we do it, if we go
seriously and like the membership takes controls of it from
like the leader from their union leadership, which is very cautious,
which has been put put into position of being more
miller of like unprecedented mills to see almost by accident,
we're trying to appease the membership. We can achieve something incredible,
(25:52):
but it's really the book's open. It can go either way,
and like I'm excited and I'm terrified by it. Yeah,
if people want to support the strikes, where can they go?
Is there a strike fund they can donate to? Ye,
the RCM has an open strike fund. I would invite
anyone listening to donate too. I would also like find
(26:18):
the articles about the petition they've been going around, like
the mind of the rcmle ship takes the stronger stance,
and like just share that around generally create more visibility
on that. Yeah, well we'll put links to both of
those in the description. Yeah, those are the main things
I would suggest. Again, the national nature of this struggle
(26:43):
and the fact that it's not even really against our
direct employers makes it harder to talk specifically about this
thing or that thing in some ways. But yeah, those
are the two things I would ask, Like, the big
our strike poll, the easier it is to argue for
more aggressive action, and the more visibility goings on that petition,
the more it'll take a lot more than a petition
(27:05):
to like shift things to the roots, to being in
the forefront and the leadership position of this. But it's
something that will make people feel more empowered to put
more pressure on the leadership. It's like a small stepping
point towards what we need. I'd also like to recommend
a book to anyone who wants to find out more
(27:25):
about the history of the NHS and the current situation.
Some commrades of mind, like from a group called the
Ambi Workers and also revolution. I always forget the other group.
They did it with his name, this is embarrassing. Yeah,
anarchist communist group and Healthcare Workers United, which is like
a network I'm involved in, put together a book called
(27:47):
Sick of It, which is like a collection of workers
inquiries and reflections on the NHS. It's history, it's potentials
and what and it and stuff. That's really a great book.
Sadly not available as any book, but it's it's an
excellent read and like it'll tell you, we'll give you
a real insight into what the NHS has been historically
and what it is now. If anyone who's interested in that,
(28:08):
that's awesome. Yeah, the angry workers are really cool. By
the way, they're on Twitter. I probably should have. It's
probably just angry workers. Yeah, yeah it is. Oh wait, no,
I'm wrong, it's it's workers. It's at workers angry I
think wait, no, no, it's yeah, it's at work. Is angry?
(28:30):
It is? Yeah. Yeah, I'm not on Twitter. I don't
I don't know about these things. It is. It is
a cursed place. Um yeah, getting workased. Oh god. Yeah.
If you want to want to find us at Twitter,
we are at cours and Media. Um yeah, we're also
on Instagram. I'm told we're on Instagram. I don't have one,
(28:53):
so I don't know. This is what I've been being
told for many years. If we don't, don't tell me. Yeah,
and thank you all for listening, and yeah, go do
your own strikes at make bosses lives miserable. Please. The
most strikes are going on, the more people want to
go on strike. Hey, it could happen here as a
(29:16):
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it could happen here. Updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot
com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Welcome to do do it can happen here a podcast increasingly
about nurses strikes and yeah, this is part two of
our Inny of You with Nick, a nurse in the UK. Enjoy.
We've entered the tafty Turviya land where the RCNC used
to be the people who are like leading on the
militancy in this in this French where yeah, yeah, And
I think part of it comes down to is because
the RCM was historically for a sneaking part city was
(00:28):
not a union, became a union late in the day
for then eight was for ages anti strike. A lot
of unions because like we can talk about the John
critique of unions and particularly like institutional unions, how they
service providers, how they build up like a protective bureaucracy
against Burton struggle or against like glass roots militancy. The
(00:51):
RCM it's not a particularly democratic as these things go,
but it doesn't have that kind of built up institutional
inertia in the trade union side because historically it hasn't
needed it, and that meant I think it was actually
far more susceptible. It's two grassroots pressure and militancy then
(01:11):
some of the other more established unions were and that's all, Oh, sorry, no,
and that kind of like was the thin end of
the webs that the rcenter taker's bostrong stance over the
pay rise in response to like grassroots organizing and like
a demand from the grassroots to do that, which then
results in them like batting for strike action first, which
(01:32):
then meant other unions had to and then we got
the and then the cascade of like strikes in the
NHS have occurred since then. So this is this is
a very very broad question to be asking, but how
how have the strikes has been going. That's kind of
(01:59):
a differ got one to say. So Scotland, for instance,
has not been called out, has not actually had any
strike days because the Scottish government went into negotiations to
begin with and then made an offer, it was rejected,
strikes were announced, they made another, agreed to come back
to negotiations. So like it's been effective in getting something
(02:21):
moving in Scotland. Their current offer of fifteen percent over
two years, so six something this year, five something next
year is currently being voted on by the RCA membership.
It's not it's not a good but it's a significant
movement of what came before Wales. The Welsh government, after
saying no, we can't have any more money. We can't.
(02:44):
We literally can't because Westminster controls our budget. Westminster won't
give us any more budget for this has now made
an improved, an improved offer. It's crap, but it's like
something it's forcome to shift when they were claiming it
was physically impost for them to do it, which every
single time, like I can think of exactly one time
(03:05):
ever where I've seen an employer make that demand and
it was actually true. But this is not like that.
That was that was like what Norfolk Southern in like
like the nineteen seventies, and it was only true once
and it's never been true ever since then. Like you
will hear this from every fucking employer who you attempt
to go on track against, and they're always lying, like
(03:26):
every single time. What I will say is like in
the case of Wales, it is very true. The Welsh
government's budget is set by Westminster, by the CeNSE of government,
so it's a lie, but it's a plausible lie. Yeah,
And Wales is generally massively Wales is like some of
the highest rates of child poverty outside of Eastern Europe.
(03:46):
In Europe, the reasons. Part of the reasons for this
is because the Wales government is chronically underfunded. Yeah yeah,
due to political desinis has made in England, but it's
still not true. And then in England, like it's got
to the point where a government who are categorically opposed
(04:07):
to any negotiations with trade unions have actually come to
negotiating tables. So from that, although a suspective, loads of
preconditions that haven't been publicly talked about, and they're going
to not make a credible offer in my view and
as a stalling tactic, but the fact they even chose
to come to the table at all. I hate saying
this because it makes it's the kind of thing that
(04:27):
makes people complacent. But that is actually quite big that
the Conservative government actually agreed to do it, to come
to negotiating table. Stopped hiding behind oh there's an independent
paybody that decides these things. Stop saying it's we can't
afford to fund the NHS anymore. Actually just coming and
sitting at the table at all to negotiate. It's like
a big movement of itself. Now if we talk about
(04:50):
numbers of participation in strikes. There's been a lot of difficulties,
a lot of nowhere near as many people have participated
in the strikes as should have been. I will be
frank and say so now we're going to talk about
the derogations, the situation delegations, which is like the RN
(05:11):
voluntarily saying we will allow this many people to continue
working these days and these areas in order to maintain
patient safety, which is, on one hand, we don't want
any patients to die obviously, on the other hand, it's
a very easily abused stance to take. And there are
just nurses who are other trade unions who who aren't
(05:32):
a trade unions as well, and ultimately, if they want
that not to happen, they need to just come to
the table earlier. And so this results in a process
where so by to you and like time sensitive chemo
and pediatric A and ees were derogated by default, and
(05:54):
then there was an agreement of if the wards had
less than like nighttime numbers, we would agreed for a
small amount of our of our membership to go in
to work on those wards to maintain nighttime numbers for
the sake of patients safety. But that had to be
(06:15):
applied form on a case by case bas basis. But
there's a couple of problems with this one. Trust just
not taking it seriously, lying and not trying to establish
these things to make accurate requests, leaving it to the
last minute, and then asking for blanket derogations. We don't
(06:35):
know if it's going to be safe or not. Managers
like ward managers not actually knowing what was agreed and
to giving incorrect information to their staff, people not understanding
what was of wasn't derogated, And just generally it was
a system that was very open to abuse, and so
like a lot of a lot of things were just
(06:55):
left open in general or like that shouldn't have been
But at the same time, I know that it didn't
happen in every case, but like there was a success
in like members the strike committee going around wards and
saying no, you're over number, you need to come out,
and people doing it. Of like surgeries being canceled, like
(07:17):
elective surgeries, nontime sensitive surgeries being canceled due to it,
of like really making hospital managers sweat over like proving
each thing needed to happen they wanted needed to happen.
Those days, all of it's built up. Even if we
didn't get the full amount of people we should have
had out on strike, on strike really built up the
pressure significant degrees from them to then put the pressure
(07:39):
up the chain of the NHS to the government's like
we can't keep on going on like this. And at
the same time each set of strikes, the number of
people participating did increase, so like, for instance, I've just
got the government statistics from that the fifteenth of December,
(08:00):
I think it is so this was the first strike
day that was called. It was nine thousand, nine hundred
and ninety nine absences due to industrial action. Then on
the twentieth it was eleven thousand, five hundred and nine.
Then on the eighteenth and nineteenth of January, and just
(08:22):
one important factor, they didn't call all hospitals out at once.
Again I think a mistake of strategic mistakes should have
gone hard, gone hard fast. But the argue was we
just we don't have the facilities to organize all of
this effectively on all of these last amounts, because like
it was a huge amount of trusts they needed to
do that with. But then on those days it was
(08:45):
then eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty three and eleven thousand,
two hundred and nineteen across those two days. Then in
February it was fifteen thousand, nine hundred ninety eight, and
then I'm fourteen on the second day, fourteen thousand and
(09:05):
then fifty eight to people, which is far lower than
it should have been. I can't remember how many people
there are nursed are on the NHS, so I should
have had that statissecretity, but it's not an inconsiderate amount.
It meant lots about patients appointments being canceled, a lot
of surgeries being canceled, a lot of chaos and stress
for the managers of the NHS and therefore for the government.
(09:26):
Are looking really bad for them. And it's a clear
upwards trajectory, which meant that when they are seeing announced
we're going to do two days consecutive, we're not. We're
going to keep it going through the night, which they
han't done previously, and we're not doing derogations. I to
you will be staffed. I think we're not doing anything else.
I think no even it TOU wasn't staffed. We'd considered
(09:47):
on a case by case basis, we won't be considered
what sorry, intensive care, I see you for America. Actually okay, yeah,
So that meant that at that point the government prob like, okay,
we need to move to a new delaying tactic. They're
not just going to give up. And I think with that,
as it went on, like people were itching and itching
(10:10):
to go further. And so for instance, like A and
E was derogated, So which is the area I work in?
But like a lot of people and this is reflective
of like most areas that were derogated. When I spoke
to people, we weren't them like, no, we need to
be out, we need to be out the picket line.
And like after the first two rounds, there was also
(10:32):
a growing effort to like try and find out from
the membership of what the actual situation was. So unlike
staffing on the wards, because all wards are chronically understaffed.
So when they said, oh, well neath this, aren't people
who say, no, we know that's alive, we know one
nights there's actually only three registered nurses. There's not the
four you're claiming and stuff like that. It's again I
think it was a really positive move in like embedding
(10:57):
a kind of like workers, inquiry of workers nor it's
about their workplace into the organizing of the strike that
had been quite a top down process. But yeah, and
I'm kind of worried about how this delay and break
in the strike action will affect that momentum that had
(11:17):
been building up. I think, like to a large degree,
people are like itching to go again, and I think
that desire to go again is building as it goes.
Like when it initially happened, but this social instally called off,
there was a lot of like trust, like in like
the big WhatsApp groups and stuff and talk to people,
there was a lot of like people thinking of at
(11:37):
least I don't know if this was represent general opinion,
but people being quite Vocnate Beau say no, we need
to trust like Pat knows what she's doing, they wouldn't
have called it off of this thing. It's like it's
getting more and more those people being like, no, we
need to, we need to go, we need to we
need to get back on the picket line. And there's
been a petition that's been going around that's been getting
quite a bit of news, like setting out some hard
(12:00):
lines like four to the end R and C leadership
about what kind of stuff they should accept, like saying, no,
we need to stick to the above inflation busting, we
need to not compromise on this, we need to not
compromise in this, which is I think got eight hundred
and eighty signatures at the moment. It doesn't sound like
a huge amount, but like again you're going through quite
(12:22):
a lot of immersia of like attitude of like you've
got to leave it to the leadership among the membership,
even when they were unhappy with it. And it's only
a thousand signatures that are necessary in the RCNSU where
the RCM works to call an extraordinary general meeting, which
they can do pretty much whatever it wants. And that's
how the leadership in two and eighteen was kicked out
(12:42):
after the bad pay deal. Then well that's really interesting. Yeah,
so like the very undemocratic except for this one particular thing. Yeah,
is it is it a normal thing? That? Is it
like a normal thing for unions in the in the
UK or is that just like a most most I
think all unions have of an amount of people set
(13:03):
amount where if like memberships calling for an extraordinary general meeting,
they have to do it. The RCNS one is really
low interesting essentially, and like there were some moves were
like people in the r C a least say, oh,
we need to change it, we need to give it
a v we need we need to raise it to
be more in line with other unions. But that again
(13:25):
is something that will have to that if that does happen,
that kind of change we'd have to go through like
a membership wide vote. It's not something the executive leadership
could just impose. That's good. Yeah, So like there is
(13:48):
a process of like these strikes were like a result
of like increasing general level of militancy with among nurses
in general and among NHS workers. And I think particularly
because everyone knows it's awful the situation, and then with
like a slightly more organized than spearing it the resulted
(14:12):
in that in that petition in twenty eighteen, arguing for
stuff at like compass and things, and then that's all
actual strike has like got the membership feeling like they
should have a more active role, and I think it's
pushing things in a positive direction, even though I think
the rc AND leadership has gotten to a point where
(14:33):
by mistake, it ended up way ahead of the other
unions and it's now trying to beg attle, but I don't.
I think there's a lot of potential for like more
glass roots organized by the membership to prevent that happening. Yeah.
We are in a difficult position though that the time
is running out. Strike mandates in the UK only last
for six months. We are when the government that greed
(14:58):
negotiations were to and a half months left of the mandate.
It's now two months left of the mandate. You have
to give two weeks notice before strike action. Oh so
that's that that that's that's what to sort of like
run out the clock strategies about on their side. Okay,
that makes sense exactly. Now, nothing's to stop us from reballoting. Yeah,
but it will be a whole process. It has to
(15:19):
be a month. You have to go through the mail. Yeah,
it will be drawn out. We'll buy them a lot
more time. Yeah, that's postal workers I think are on
strike again today too, I think maybe, I think so,
let me, I've got the strike calendar up on my computer.
(15:39):
Let's see who's on strike and absolutely fraud. I have
it on my other computer, but I don't have it
on this one. Yeah, so days the fifteen today Amazon's
on striking, Coventry, the BBC's regil services, the civil service,
which will kind of be equivalent to like a federal
(16:02):
stuff um in America. So like fince, it's my dad,
who's a Health and safety inspector is on strike today,
h MRC, which is the tax officers on strike, junior
doctors on strike, off stead, the School of Structors on
spike strike, the rail the two main rail unions on strike,
(16:23):
teaches on strike, and university stuff on strike. Not the
postal service today. But yeah, yeah, well I guess, I
guess I wanted to ask a bit about that too,
about sort of just what what's been happening. I don't
know what what what you see as sort of the
potential of the of the broader strikes have been happening,
because this is this is a I don't know, I mean,
it's not it's not it's not like a like it's
(16:46):
it's not like a nineteen seventies style like strike wave,
but it's it's a lot of strikes for the UK
in the last decade. It's it's big like that isn't
the level of cross union corporation and talks that you
would want. There's a lot of like people turning up
to each other's picket lines. There's a lot of like
(17:07):
solidarity present, but it's not coalescing into like a into
like a unified movement, which you're hoping to be. Although
I do think if something doesn't change, it is moving
in that direction. And like the Conservative government is at
like an all time loan it's popularity ratings. Yeah, I think.
(17:30):
I don't know if you're aware from this quote from
Margaret that's about how her main political goal was remaking
the soul of Britain away because like up until that
period there was a very strong trade union movement in
the UK that it had like one of the best
social democracies in the world, like comparable to Scandinavia today
(17:55):
it was. It was far more like a collective attitude
in the UK. And like Margaret factor is explicit. I
can't remember the exact quote explicit project and the project
or the Conservative Party at the time. Let's not put
it all on her, great woman thee of histories, as
bad as great man of history, to move the soul
of the like general social attitude and personality of like
(18:16):
people in Britain away from that like orientations like community
and collective struggle and action. And there is a part
of me that feels like this is a move away
from that, because like everyone you go to, there's winging
about like an inconvenience caused by strike, but pretty much
(18:36):
everyone is like, yeah, those they have it. It's awful
for them all the strike drivers. Good on them for
standing up for themselves. Good on the teachers for standing
up for themselves. Good on postal workers were standing up
for themselves. Good on nurses were standing up for themselves.
Like the amount of like stuff I've been brought by
people on the picket lines has been in It's like
(18:57):
I each to day I've been like rolling down for
hill from my hospital to my house like a bloated
stomach from like stuff members of the public import and
dropped off at the pick it line. It's um. It
makes me feel like it's there is the optimist part
of me. It does feel like there is a reorientation
in general of British public to the idea that we
(19:19):
don't have to put up with this, yeah, and you
don't have to struggle and try and get it on
your own. And like it's early days yet, but I
do see something positive moving in that direction in the UK.
As to this strike wave, Yeah, that's a that is
I don't know that that is great news from a
place that does not usually generate great news. This is
(19:41):
like the this is the deeply optimistic part of me.
On the other hand, do you have like bad a
lot of bad news coming out of the UK. Yeah,
Like this strike wave is good news. It is the
fact that it's happening in the NTS in particular, which
has been so resistant to industrial action historically, and also
just because of how what significant part of the economy
(20:04):
it is as well, because like you know, the NHS
is the eighth biggest employee in the world. Wow, you
know it's in the world. That's that's wild. Yeah, Like
it used to be like the fifth biggest in the world. Wow,
it's yeah. It used to only be that the American Army,
the Chinese army, McDonald's of Walmart would be it would
(20:26):
be overtaken by Amazon and such now but yeah, yeah,
like like strike action, so like from like a worker's perspective,
like strike action of like the largest section of the workforce,
nurses in the NHS, the biggest flow in the world,
leaving aside the situation for everything else in the UK,
(20:47):
leaving aside their history of the opposition, like the active
opposition to the idea of striking within nursing historically in
the UK, is huge news and something to be hopeful about,
and then put into context of the more border strikeway
in the UK and within the NHS in general, this
is huge and it is a sign I think or
(21:08):
positive change and like reortation towards workplace struggle occurring. I think.
So I've now heard two different places do this, which
(21:30):
was I heard this in Chile in twenty nineteen, and
I heard this also on my picket line at the
University of Chicago in twenty nineteen, which is I had like,
I this is this is the place deal liberalism was born,
and we will kill it here. And I mean those
are the three places, Yeah, Chicago and the UK. Yeah,
I think. I think also arguably Germany, although that has
(21:51):
a whole other The d Libs aren't I think Aldo
Libs from my understanding of from listening to some things
about years ago, it's more of a family resemblance than
the exact same thing as neoliberalism. Yeah, I mean, I
think if we're gonna I think they got absorbed into
the neoliberal bubble so far as like like they're they're
(22:14):
the order libs are where the neo liberals got the
sort of like we need to have like an international bureaucracy,
like the legal bureaucracy from like hyak is also like
heavy of all. Yeah that that's that's a whole this right,
But yeah, like it is. It is encouraging to me
that it's like, I don't know, like like the it
really does seem like in the places where the liberalism
(22:34):
was bored, it's like it's starting to come apart. Yeah,
And you know, I know people people have been predicting
the death neoliberalism for like long, well almost as long
as I've been alive. But I don't know this this
like the fact that it's happening in these places seems
(22:54):
different than it does seem look on it. I think
it is significan can I think I'm I am cautiously
excited every time I hope something bad happens, but I
am hopeful now. And you know, my brain isn't magic,
so it can't be a cause of effect there. Yeah,
(23:18):
but I don't know. I mean, like you are the
second person I've interviewed from the UK who actually seemed
to be like somewhat optimistic about the direction you could
possibly be going, which is the first time I've heard
that in Like, I mean, I guess you're people who
are optimistic about Corbin, but yeah, I don't know. This
is this is the first sort of like signs of
that since I don't know a long time, and I think, yeah,
(23:42):
look like if I was honestly the American listeners, like,
if turf Island isn't doomed, then we're not doomed either.
I don't know. He's what I canna say. You're over
taking us on that. It's true. Yeah we have Yeah,
I am Yeah, I don't know when this is out,
but I'm gonna I'm going to be honest man. Like
there's a lot of ways the UK is better than
(24:02):
the MASTER. Yeah, the US like it's a it's a
real disaster, like it's it's yeah. Yeah, I mean I
think we're both equally banned a lot of ways. Yeah,
I think the things and the things that like people
in the US look at England say this is awful,
and the things people in the UK look at the
US and say this is awful. It's it's kind of
(24:24):
a a child looking at their parent and being pissed
off at them, and a child and a child and
a parent looking at their child and being disappointed in them. No, no,
you both suck. It's family resemblance. It's we hate us
for It's a narcissism of small differences, like yeah, between
(24:44):
the US and the uk K a lot of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I guess do you have anything else do you want
to say about the strikes? I think the fact it
got this far is incredible. There's so much further that
needs to go. Um, I'm really excited and I'm really scared.
(25:05):
I think this is a potential for like a turning
point around, both for the NHS, but for my profession
for nursing and also like in general in the context
the widestrike page for the UK. But you know, the
higher the stakes, the higher the perils. Like this is
our I think this is our fight to lose essentially,
(25:29):
Like I think if we do it, if we go
seriously and like the membership takes controls of it from
like the leader from their union leadership, which is very cautious,
which has been put put into position of being more
miller of like unprecedented mills to see almost by accident,
we're trying to appease the membership. We can achieve something incredible,
(25:52):
but it's really the book's open. It can go either way,
and like I'm excited and I'm terrified by it. Yeah,
if people want to support the strikes, where can they go?
Is there a strike fund they can donate to? Ye,
the RCM has an open strike fund. I would invite
anyone listening to donate too. I would also like find
(26:18):
the articles about the petition they've been going around, like
the mind of the rcmle ship takes the stronger stance,
and like just share that around generally create more visibility
on that. Yeah, well we'll put links to both of
those in the description. Yeah, those are the main things
I would suggest. Again, the national nature of this struggle
(26:43):
and the fact that it's not even really against our
direct employers makes it harder to talk specifically about this
thing or that thing in some ways. But yeah, those
are the two things I would ask, Like, the big
our strike poll, the easier it is to argue for
more aggressive action, and the more visibility goings on that petition,
the more it'll take a lot more than a petition
(27:05):
to like shift things to the roots, to being in
the forefront and the leadership position of this. But it's
something that will make people feel more empowered to put
more pressure on the leadership. It's like a small stepping
point towards what we need. I'd also like to recommend
a book to anyone who wants to find out more
(27:25):
about the history of the NHS and the current situation.
Some commrades of mind, like from a group called the
Ambi Workers and also revolution. I always forget the other group.
They did it with his name, this is embarrassing. Yeah,
anarchist communist group and Healthcare Workers United, which is like
a network I'm involved in, put together a book called
(27:47):
Sick of It, which is like a collection of workers
inquiries and reflections on the NHS. It's history, it's potentials
and what and it and stuff. That's really a great book.
Sadly not available as any book, but it's it's an
excellent read and like it'll tell you, we'll give you
a real insight into what the NHS has been historically
and what it is now. If anyone who's interested in that,
(28:08):
that's awesome. Yeah, the angry workers are really cool. By
the way, they're on Twitter. I probably should have. It's
probably just angry workers. Yeah, yeah it is. Oh wait, no,
I'm wrong, it's it's workers. It's at workers angry I
think wait, no, no, it's yeah, it's at work. Is angry?
(28:30):
It is? Yeah. Yeah, I'm not on Twitter. I don't
I don't know about these things. It is. It is
a cursed place. Um yeah, getting workased. Oh god. Yeah.
If you want to want to find us at Twitter,
we are at cours and Media. Um yeah, we're also
on Instagram. I'm told we're on Instagram. I don't have one,
(28:53):
so I don't know. This is what I've been being
told for many years. If we don't, don't tell me. Yeah,
and thank you all for listening, and yeah, go do
your own strikes at make bosses lives miserable. Please. The
most strikes are going on, the more people want to
go on strike. Hey, it could happen here as a
(29:16):
production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool
Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or
check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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it could happen here. Updated monthly at cool zonemedia dot
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