January 30, 2024 • 44 mins
Mia talks with Ky and Lee from Health Liberation Now about the anti-trans bills in Ohio and the strategies detrans terf groups have used to restrict and ban trans healthcare.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Al Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is
in no small part about the increasing and escalating series
of anti trans laws being passed around the country. It's
another one of those episodes. Things are getting worse, things
are also getting weird. And with me to talk about
worse and weird is Kay and Lee from Health Liberation
(00:29):
Now welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm excited to talk to you both because, Okay, very
very odd stuff has been happening. So the main reason
I wanted to have yout you on is to talk
about the stuff that's been happening in Ohio. So for
people who are unaware, Ohio's legislature has been trying to
pass a very draconian ban on all gender firm macare
(00:52):
for minors. The States Republican governor vetoed the bill and
this was for about one day. There was a lot
of sort of like liberal cheering about like ah, compassionate Republicans,
blah blah, blah blah. And then immediately after that, like
like like the next day, when all of all of
us we haven't even like we hadn't even really gotten
into the weight hold on He's going to do something else. Uh.
(01:14):
The thing that Dwine did is is, you know, and
this is this is being framed as like an attempt
to stave off the veto, which hasn't worked so far,
but he immediately implemented a bunch of rules that say
that in order to get gender firming care, and this
is true of both miners and adults, which makes it
(01:34):
in a lot of ways more draconian than the actual bill.
It's quote unquote supposed to be preventing like getting passed.
If you want to get gender refirming care, you need
recommendations from a psychiatrist, an endocrinologist, and a bioethicist. And
also all gender firmingcare in the state has to be
(01:54):
reported to the government there and there's like other stuff too.
So this is the technical term for this is this
is extremely bad.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean he also signed an executive
order just banning surgery for everyone under eighteen too. Yeah,
so yeah, yeah, I mean also I think I believe
it was like everyone under twenty one also had to
go through six months of counseling as well.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yes, yeah, at least six months of counseling. Yeah, there's
no upper.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Cap mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
And like a lot of this was the wine and
his spokespeople have ended up like justifying a lot of this,
like trying to use language from clinicians working at clinics
in Ohio that see trans youth and be like, well,
you know, they're taking this comprehensive, multidisciplinary approach, and most
(02:55):
of the people they see like get counseling instead of
medical transitions. So they're actually like using a lot of
the testimony against the band to try to justify these
rules and regulations. And I don't think they're acting in
good faith because when you actually like look at the details,
are like, well, this would basically make it almost impossible
for anyone at any age to transition. But it's like,
(03:15):
you know, it's a very sneaky smart move, right, like
being like, oh, look, we're trying to find a compromise.
We're trying to make sure everyone gets good healthcare, and
you know, unfortunately sometimes liberals and liberal media I'll just
kind of eat that up without really looking at the details.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, And one of the things that's happening here too
is that so the US, where in places where there's
pretty good access to gender affirming healthcare, it works off
of something called informed consent and informed consent is like, okay,
so you go there, they tell you what is going
(03:53):
to happen, and you talk you talk to like a
nurse or a doctor, and then once you know the
life like what you're actually getting into, you say yes
or no if you want to do something right, and
you know, this is a this is a pretty good system.
It still can be really annoying to navigate because of
insurance stuff, and you know, like there's definitely problems with it,
(04:16):
but it's a it's a much better system that exists
in a lot of places. And you know, I think
there have been two sets of comparisons about what these
restrictions look like. And we're going to get to the
comparisons to uh TARP restrictions on abortion in a second,
but I want to talk about another thing that these
restrictions strike me as very similar to, which is the
(04:36):
British system. And the way the British system works is
you get put on a wait list and then you die,
or you go to our media like those are those
are your options?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Or or you're really wealthy and you can you can
bypass the public healthcare system and go to the private
healthcare system. But you know, like I hope, like I
hope you are like the air to mansion before you
start that process, or you're in serious trouble. The thing
about the British system is there's all of these paths
of interlocking experts you have to go through in every
(05:06):
single you have to get signatures from every single one
of them. And what this means is you have this
enormous sort of interminable British gender bureaucracy whose only job
and only the only thing they want to do is
stop you from getting healthcare. There's a very very good
Philosophy Tube episode about this about what it's actually like
to be in that system, and it's terrible. And this
(05:28):
is a this is what the kinds of things that
are being proposed to here are. In a lot of it's
not exactly the same as a British system, but it's
it's bringing it much closer to that system where it's
basically impossible to get healthcare. And the thing about the
British system and about these restrictions where you know, you
have to have like a bioethicistant, a psychiatrist and endocrinologist,
(05:50):
and you have to like do all you have to
jump through all of these troops is that at every
single point in the process, there is another gender bureaucrat
who can just buy themself self decide that they're just
doing a trans healthcare band. And you know, every every
individual person you put into the process is another person
who could just say no. And that's what the bridge
system works, is that someone in the process just says
(06:12):
no and you die in a wait list.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, we know trans people in Britain and in
other European countries where they have like a lot of gatekeeping,
and you know, all of them have warned us like
you do not want this coming to the US. Yeah,
you know, reminding us like all the time, like how
much easier are a lot of us trans people have
it in terms of accessing healthcare?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And just like, yeah, I mean everything I've heard about.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Like the UK healthcare system sounds like nightmarish. People asking
invasive questions about like your sexuality or your trauma history
or for youth that often ends up like involving like
genital inspections. For some reason, it just sounds like a horrible, dehumanizing,
violating experience.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
And then yeah, and like a lot of people like.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Spend years and years if they you know, and are
lucky if they do it, are able to access care.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
A lot of people have to go private if they
can afford to.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Honestly, before, I mean technically it was during but before
the full like onslaught of bills started to hit the US,
Like there were Brits that were trying to sound the
alarm and get the message out to US base.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah, like it was around when the Currabell ruling happened.
Crabell was a d trans woman who's lawyer was affiliated
with the ADF, with the British branch of Alliance Defending Freedom,
which is behind a lot of the it's like an
international Christian nationalist organization that's behind a lot of the
healthcare bands in the US as well.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Also the abortion birth control.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah, really nasty people. But anyway, so like Currabell, this
this t trans woman.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
It's like she.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Sued the NHS for allowing her to transition and originally
like won her case and that led to basically like
the end of positioning for you.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, she submitted a judicial review.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
The initial review was favorable to her, but upon further review,
the appeals did end up overturning it. But by that
point the damage had already been done. Yeah, a bunch
of people were starting to lose access to to care
and the likes and the wheels were starting to spin
internally as well in terms of the Tavistock system and
(08:33):
so like. As a result, like the wait lists just
ended up getting longer and longer and longer.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
So that was like a huge blow that happened in
the UK, and like UK trails people like basically like
by that point starting trying to warn people in the US,
like this is going to come for you too, Yeah,
like get ready, like they had already been already been
like suffering under this like no anti transplits for a while,
and they like knew it was going to spread on
(08:59):
the board of the UK, And unfortunately it has.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, in like the very early stages of our project,
when we launched at the beginning of twenty twenty one,
almost immediately after the Carabell initial ruling, we hosted a
transcript of a podcast from Blood and Turf that was
trying to deliver this message over to US based comrades.
And unfortunately it does not appear to have reached as
(09:24):
many people as it really needed to. But we do
have that available in the event that people can still
learn from it, because this onslot is not going to stop.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, And I think one of the things that we're
seeing now is that we're now seeing kind of an
opening of new fronts in a way where you have,
in the same state at the same time you have
both what I guess I would call the American style
approach of just straight up bands and then this kind
(09:57):
of an attempt to implement this sort of British like,
you know, attempt to implement this sort of like British
endow bureaucracy system. And one of the things that's been
happening with this is, you know, okay, so there's a
lot of places where there's inspirations coming for this, and
I think, you know, we mentioned it briefly earlier. One
(10:18):
of the inspirations for this is obviously parp restrictions on abortion,
where you have these like unbelievably restricted like basically these
targeted things. When before before Roe v. Wade collapsed, there
was you know, you could you could ban abortions by
for example, you know, saying like passing a bill that
(10:40):
says that like, okay, if you want to do abortions
in a hospital, the walls in the hallways have to
be like exactly like this diameter, which is not the
same diameter as like as as normal hospital walls are.
So now you can't do abortions in hospitals, and so
they do things like this, right, and this is you know,
this has been a huge problem for a long time
(11:03):
answer anti abortion activists. I've been talking about it for ages.
The Democrat Party did nothing, So you know, that's I think,
I think it's sort of like forwarding of where this
is going.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, a direct parallel is actually over in Arizona, if
I remember correctly, because one of the things that they
ended up doing down in Arizona is a requirement that
they tried to implement was this rather controversial piece where
they also had to provide information on abortion reversals using
(11:40):
certain types of hormone care. Right, similar to how in
order for people to be able to provide gender affirming
care they have to provide information about detransition and stuff
like that. But when you actually start to look at
some of the data, not all of it, it's some
of the data that they are relying on to inform
(12:01):
people of this. It is a wildly biased sample or
just downright pseudoscience, right, Like, they looked at the evidence
base for the abortion reversals and it didn't actually work
the way that they were saying it was, and it
was actually coming from very very very explicitly motivated groups.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So, Yeah, like abortion has been difficult to access in
Arizona for a very long time in part because of
some of these like obnoxious requirements that people end up
putting into place through trap laws.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's it's worth noting that, like,
and this is true of both the anti trans bands
and the and anti abortioning legislation, is that, like it's
the science, they're just making it up a lot of
the time. Like, you know, one of the like one
of the very famous things there is these like fetal
heartbeat bills that required like and the thing about like
(12:58):
fetal heartbeat bills is that fetuses don't have heartbeats. You're
not hearing a heartbeat. Like doctors will like force you
to listen to this. It's like that it's not what's happening.
It's literally not a heartbeat. But these people, like they
put a stethoscope to a woman's chest and heard a
beating and we're like, oh shit, it's the baby's heart.
And it's like, no, it doesn't have a heart, Like wait,
(13:21):
this is a fetus, Like what are you even talking about.
But you know, and this kind of stuff, right is
you know, they're they're they're they're basically they're they're doing
just scientific malpractice, right, They're straight up lying to people,
and then they're using that as a justification for you know,
actual legislation which has sort of material impact and like
(13:41):
you know, carries the force of the law behind it,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we've been seeing
a lot of very similar kinds of things from from
these anti trans legislation. And one of one of the
ways that they've been able to use sort of pseudoscience
to get restrictions on healthcare past and this is this
(14:02):
is true both of sort of the straight up bands
and also of these kind of like massive bureaucratic restrictions
is by allying with groups of sort of of right
wing detransitioners. And we're going to talk about that more
after this ad break, because we unfortunately are reliant on
ads to cover this stuff. So yeah, here's here's ads. Okay,
(14:36):
we are back, and this is the point where we
need to talk about the stuff in the Ohio story
that is very weird. Now. I think if people have
been following the story of sort of anti trans bills,
one of the things that's been happening a lot is
there's been this sort of there's there's a network of
(14:58):
people who de transition and for various reasons I don't know,
who have become very very hardline right wingers who have
basically been doing like circuits of the capitals of you know,
like state capitals and like going to Capitol Hill and
like telling their quote unquote stories to try to get
this to try to get like all trans healthcare bands. Now,
(15:20):
so this is you know, this is something we've covered
on the show in the past. What is very weird
about Ohio is that you had a group of these
right wing transitioners who specifically we're trying to get it
looked like at very at least we're trying to get
we're trying to stop the like the actual uh like
(15:41):
gender firming care ban from going through, and we're in
favor of more of this restriction stuff. Is that is
that is that what am I getting this right?
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Not not exactly. There's a couple of.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
No, okay, Le, sorry, I'm I.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I can provide my my brief description here real quick,
and then you can retake aspects of that stuff. Because
something to bear in mind is the fact that, like
some of the opposition in the Ohio testimonies are actually
coming from people who view themselves as very left wing.
These are radical feminists. Specifically, they are just hardcore opposing I.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Mean, I would say they're they're actual politics are for
a reactionary.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Even Yeah, they call.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Themselves left wing.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
They see themselves as being opposed to the right, like
that's how they present themselves, and they definitely believe that
their anti right wing.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
But there's there's also another component. This one is like
the nuances are sometimes almost impossible to be able to
tease out.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
I swear tomato tomato.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
But one of the people who was a proponent for
both this current bill and a past bill is actually
Corina Cone, who does not consider herself to be right wing.
Though she does here to be working with a number
of right wing people, she considers herself to be quote
unquote libertarian. Now, this is a red flag for those
(17:10):
of us who have done any sort of like real
engagement with certain types of libertarians or political organizing or
whatever in that if you actually pay attention to some
of the arguments that are being made or the collaborations
that are being made, you can generally tell which direction
their politics are truly leaning towards right?
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Is it left wing? Is it right wing?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And hers have been steering far and far more right wing.
Like she uses the excuse of, you know, I want
small government and stuff like that, but if you're working
with like legislators to put in full on bands, I'm sorry, honey,
(17:52):
that's not small government.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
That's not small government.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
That is the opposite of small government actually, and so like, like,
it's kind of hard to sort of like encapsulate the
entirety of like the proponents of the opposition into particular
political alignments because a lot of it is really based
off of, like what are their motivations and who are
(18:16):
they willing to work with?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
Which again, tomato, tomato.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
But I'll have to come back to the Corona Cone
one at some point here too, because that one is
actually an important timeline in terms of understanding the Ohio bills.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Mm hmm, yeah, I mean basically, I mean you have
like these. You do have like right wing beat transition
people like Chloe Cole or Christian Boseley, Laura Becker who
like do you know they they'll be hanging out with
like the Heritage Foundation or Billboard Chris or the Cue Shop, yeah,
(18:50):
or Our Duty like and they very much are just
working to try to pass these full on bands. But
then yeah, you have also these like d trans Turf
and they're more liberal fellow travelers who definitely see themselves
as being opposed to the right and are opposed to
I mean they they're opposed to the right because they
(19:11):
see right being Christians as being a threat to them
as well, and are at least smart enough to understand
that if you know, right being Christians have their way,
they're going to suffer too. But they also want to
end trans healthcare or restrict it.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
I mean some of the.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Two of the people who helped organize, helped collect the
testimony the group statement that was submitted under the name
are you asking why Max and Katie Robinson they have
ties to Janice Raymond?
Speaker 5 (19:39):
That's serious, Yeah, they do.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Janis Raymond help publish Max Robinson's book over Ats Spinefects
Press this Swurf and Turf publisher. So yeah, they they're
not actually approach Frans.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Like, yeah, well we should, we should mention. So Janis
Raymond for people who some we we've talked about on
the show a few times, but Shann's Raymond wrote a
book called The Transsexual Empire, and okay, so people normally
leave off the subtitle of it, which is called It's
the Transsexual Empire. The Making of the She Mail. It's
like one of the original like original anti trans people,
(20:18):
like incredibly violent transfo like like both both in terms
of like the career of her work, like physically like
violently anti trans and yeah, yeah, she is. She is
connected to a lot of the modern anti trans groups
and also the modern like the modern I don't know
what you'd call them, people who are attempting to take
(20:42):
away trans healthcare but who don't see themselves as anti trans.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
I have no idea how to even summarize that.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, bad, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I kind of yes, yeah, yeah, so like I mean yeah,
and I mean yeah, Max and kid fully endorse, uh,
Janice Raymond's theories.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
I mean Janice Raymond.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
One of the things she's famous for is saying that like,
like transsexualism should be morally mandate out of existence, like
Max Robinson has said that she supports that. They also
both I mean Janice Raymond focused heavily on trans women overall,
and you know, also claim that basically like trans women
(21:23):
were you know, committing sexual assaults against women just for existing. Yeah,
Max and Kitty are also horrible transpasogynists to actually make
I mean, Kitty makes a lot of propaganda tracking attacking
transomen and trying to cast all trans women as predators.
And yeah, just not people you want on your side,
because they're not.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
They're danger to all trans people.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
They're just like trying to find a way to influence
trans healthcare in.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
A different way. And I mean, I I'm.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Concerned that people will hear like, oh, look at all
these ds, like these supposedly trans friendly, these trans people
who testified against this ban, now realizing that these are
actually like person with an agenda who I mean part
of them. Part of what they want to do is
to infiltrate like queer entry on subcultures and promo like
profideology and recruit people.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Like let's put it this way, So Max Robinson in
terms of some of her beliefs, refers to medical transition
for like trans masculine folks as a sato ritual, going
back to Mary daily types of.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Descriptions of things.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And then Kitty was one of the people that was
interviewed for and gave extensive background information for a BBC
article that was released. I believe it was called something
along the lines of we are being pressured into sex
by some trans women, which is basically good, yes, that
one right, like so yea even into this narrative that
(22:52):
trans women are sexual predators right into the British media
when they were already having a massive influx of anti
trans media that was again feeding into the demonization of
trans people as a whole, but then also like controlling
trans youth and the likes and of course this article
not only did it end up originally platforming like an
(23:14):
actual like serial.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Rape yeah, Lily kaid like someone someone a serial rapist
so prolific that like, within like maybe thirty minutes of
this article going up, like multiple like probably like a
dozen people had come forward and been like she raped
me like that. That is the person that the BBC
was like coming forward to do this shit with.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, she ended up posting basically a manifesto on her
website that was even more extreme than aspects of the
article showed off. And then I will also note that
this article was originally I believe it was only translated
into Portuguese in order to be oh yeah, moved into
BBC Zila Yeah yeah, which is also one of the
countries has one of the highest rates of trans femicide.
(24:02):
So like, yeah, these these are the people that decided
to go ahead and testify.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah, Like, well, I'm those of personally bring up Max
and Kitty because like they were some of the people
who helped like get the testimonies, Like I found a
post on Kitty's tumblr blog looking for d trans and
desisted women who were willing to testify against a ban.
And then Max was the one who actually submitted the
collective statement from Arius king Wise, he also submitted an
(24:30):
individual statement to So basically like they found a bunch
of like detrans and desisted turfs on Tumblr to sign
a statement and then submit to like the state of Ohio,
which is kind of wild to think about.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, you don't normally expect to see testimony from turf tumblr,
let alone transfer Tumblr.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
But that is like that happened? Yeah? Really who you
want to show up for you?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah? Really not good in terms of who you want
doing your.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
Legislation, Like oh god, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So okay, we need to take another ad break and
then we will come back and talk more about this.
So enjoy your brief capitalistic respite from the horror of capitalism.
(25:28):
We are back.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
In order to properly understand the situation in Ohio, you
kind of have to go back several years, right. One
of the bills that ended up being proposed in twenty
twenty was HB five to one three. This was another
version of a proposed ban on gender firming care for
(25:50):
trans youth in particular, and it was sponsored by Representatives
Ron Hood and Bill Dean. This one is interesting because
one of the group that ended up coming out in
opposition to it was the Gendercare Consumer Advocacy Network. This
is the organization that I helped found in twenty nineteen
(26:12):
prior to my resignation. They submitted this opposition after my resignation,
but it is available on archives. Then, in twenty twenty
one and the twenty twenty two legislative session, there was
the proposal for HP four or five four, which was
another proposed ban on gender for main care for trans youth.
(26:34):
This time it was being sponsored by Representative Gary Klick,
who was also the sponsor of the current bill that
had recently been vetoed and then the V two vtwed
And in May of twenty twenty two, the Gender Care
Consumer Advocacy Network or GCCAM testified in tentative support. The
(26:57):
testimony was submitted by coronicone and included suggestions for amendments.
These amendments are actually very important. One of the amendments
that she recommended was on data tracking. I believe it
says here The second amendment would be a requirement for physicians,
mental health care providers, and other medical healthcare professionals mandating
(27:20):
an annual report to the Ohio Department of Health the number, age,
and sex of minor patients who are receiving gender transition
services of any type. This was what she originally proposed
as an amendment to the bill. The bill again did
not end up passing, but now we are seeing HB
(27:41):
sixty eight, which is the one that merges the ban
on gender forming care for trans youth and a sports ban.
Because I guess you know, trans youth plane chess is
somehow like threatening. But so this one was again represented
like sponsored by reps preentive Click, and this time, curiously enough,
(28:03):
Karina had been working more extensively with Click during various
portions of the.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Of the push for the bill.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Right, you know, she testified multiple times she's posted videos
with him, pictures, et cetera. Another person who had originally
founded the organization, Carrie Callahan, did originally start opposing. Curiously
she did not note her prior experience with the organization,
but she did start to oppose the bill, and then
(28:37):
later starts to put out basically like a more general
call for opposition to HB sixty eight, right, you know,
trying to collect in you know, various types of detransitioned
people who were opposed to bands on gender affirming care right,
(29:00):
and then who is it that ends up showing up?
It's this weird little like Turf group that originally came
out of d Trans Turf Tumbler in twenty thirteen, that
historically speaking, she had prior working relationships with and even
(29:24):
presented their stories to us path.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, and also I mean Max Robinson too, like both
her both Max Robinson and Carrie Callahan were both featured
in Jesse Single's Atlantic article too. There's lots of points
of connection. They've been they've known each other since at
least twenty sixteen, and you know, work together.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Like I can't say for certain how it is that
they ended up there. Personally, to me, it seems a
little weird that people who had prior relationships dating back
a decade are showing up in the same place again,
And like they are also showing up in legislative testimony
(30:12):
for the first time in the state where some like
one of the central figures for a long time there
is putting out a call to oppose this particular bill.
Like the coincidences are racking up a little bit here.
It might be good to ask some further questions about
what exactly happened, because I have some questions. So, you know,
(30:37):
this happened in December of twenty twenty three. Right. Eventually
Governor Dwine goes ahead and vetos. But at the same
time he makes his you know, proposal for the drafting
of new regulations with you know, the Department of Health
and the likes, and within that is the suggestion of
(31:00):
detailed data tracking. That is reported to the Department of
Health and then to the general public every six months,
focusing on things like, you know, I don't think that
he wanted to focus on like the number of people
(31:21):
that were doing it, but he did include a like
the nature of the diagnosis. It applies to all ages.
It was not originally restricted to trans youth, like the
original testimony was from from gc CAN. The time range
was also ended up being like it's shortened. He wants
(31:43):
it every six months, not every year. But you know,
very similar kinds of things, right in terms of what
it is that he is proposing for this mass collection
of data and a previous testimony that was submitted to
the Ohio Legislature. In fact, like not long after that fact,
(32:05):
Representative Clique ended up going on an interview with Tony
Perkins of Family Research Council talking about the pending veto.
They originally did this interview on January ninth, and he
noted that the data collection suggestion was originally included in
a draft version of his bill, but was removed due
(32:26):
to opposition, and so he's glad actually that that was included,
although he wished that there would be even more restrictions.
He actually was going to encourage the governor to also
sign an executive order banning the use of puberty blockers,
not just surgery. As far as I can tell, that
has not happened, but he did say that he was
(32:47):
going to try. But like it's like there's there's definitely
some weird kind of like escalations that end up happening,
and some of the like some of the interconnecting threads
with individuals that again just happened to keep showing up
(33:08):
in the same place over and over and over again,
either in support or in opposition. Some folks have been
consistently opposed, whereas other people have been kind of flip flopping.
The GCCN organization is one of the ones that flip flopped.
It originally opposed all bands, and then now all of
(33:30):
a sudden, it's like, you know, the person that they
are throwing out into these testimonies was arguing in favor
of them, and then like, you know, the the quote
unquote are you asking why? Collective and to be fair,
Carrie Callahan have also been firmly opposed to full on
bands and the Christian right pretty much from the beginning,
(33:51):
though for very very very different reasons.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
I mean some other opposition was like, well, people will
go to like could go to other states where there's
less restrictions, Like no, the stuff we have, you know,
HIAS already like has a lot of restrictions, and majority
of trans youth like only get counseling and they don't
get any like none of them get surgery, and most
of them, like only a very small number of them
get puberty blockers or horrormones. So this should be like
(34:17):
this should be an example for the entire country. Like
that was kind of Carrie Gallahan's take on things. And
then like I mean, yeah, a lot of the more
like the d trans turfs, like the Robinson's or other
members of our vesting wives. It's like, okay, well they're
opposed to the Christian Right, and they recognize that like
(34:38):
if the Christian Right gains more power and is banning things,
that's bad not just for trans people but also for
you know, cis, lesbian and gay people and says women
and you know it will end up hurting them too.
So I mean, even from a self preservation stance, they
understand like why they should be opposed to the Christian Right,
but they're still if you actually read their testimony. A
(34:58):
lot of them do make it clear that they're posed
to transition. Like one one person called it like compared
medical like trans healthcare to like a hydra said that
like it would only be cutting off ahead.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Like these aren't.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, and so a lot of them were, you know,
we're also kind of praising uh, you know regulations like
the group uh statement talks about like it's like, you know,
shutting down clinics when improve anyone's quality of care. Ohio's
existing programs are known for their moderation.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
They don't perform surgery on minors. Many clinics out of
state do. Lata YadA.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
So Max Robinson's testimony also said similar, but that she
had it on good word from an Ohio in right,
I have yes, you had.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Say I hear if I'm good authority from an Ohio
in that pediactric gender clinics there prescribed hormones pretty sparingly
and don't actually perform any underage transition surgeries. Other states do, though,
So there's like this whole thing. It's like like they're
still kind of scaremonger.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
It's like, oh, but these other.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
States, like we're transition as a minor those are bad,
but they're still making it clear that the idea that
people having easy access to transition, especially as youth, is like.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
A bad thing in their minds.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
I don't think we actually mentioned like how like if
you actually look at the collective statement, that are you
asking why issued and like who signed it? Like a
whole bunch of them didn't actually transition, Like a lot
of them are actually desisted, which means that they like
never actually medically transitioned. They considered transitioning or maybe socially transitioned,
but then they decided not to medically transition, possibly after
(36:42):
you know, converting to anti transfeminism or the like. So
it's just a bunch of people who like I decided
not to transition. I'm desisted, like you know, testifying against
a healthcare ban. It's also like a kind of a
classic strategy too. It is like they have a bunch
of like desisted people along mixed in with people who actually,
so you like, transition and do transition to kind of
like inflate the numbers. Yeah, this is a standard. Yeah, this
(37:05):
is very standard. It's an old trick. It's it's like
oh yeah, you're like okay, yeah, and then a bunch
of them are also like saying the ones who did
like you know, transition and new transition, they're like emphasizing
how they a few of them like are emphasizing how young.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
They were when they transitioned and be transitioned. Again, not exactly, yeah,
not exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Protrums this collective here with like pretty pretty explicit turf ties,
including some of them directly to Trannis. Rammond herself was
the bulk of the opposition de transitioned people to the bill.
I should note, like that's fifteen signatures right there. People
(37:44):
are talking about like how there were nineteen people that
were opposed, so fifteen of them were either like part
of the recruitment or actively recruited on d trans turf tumpler.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Yeah, and then like at least five of them are
just assisted they're transitions. It's not clear about everyone, but yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
It's just.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
It's really weird. And it's also been really weird to
see the media just kind of take that.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Testimony of theirs at face value that it's been a
problem for a long time. It is like getting the
media to actually sort of like investigate or care about
people's like political views or activism or actually kind of
being like like sometimes like I think, like I say,
like the Basilon New York Times story we were talking
about before, has Grace Liton Ski Smith and there without
(38:43):
saying that she was you know, affiliated with J. C.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Kan and she's like not just with the president, she
was the president. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
It's like, Okay, she's just like represented as just like
you know, as a deutrons woman without going into like
actually she's the head of this political organization, and that's
just this has happened.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
This has been a problem for years.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Yeah, So it's just like, I mean, just a whole
lot of different sketchy characters kind of came out for
what's going.
Speaker 5 (39:13):
On in Ohio. I mean, you have like.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
You know, Republicans and right wing Christians who just want
to straight up ban transition and move towards eliminating it
for for all trans people and workers, making it, you know,
as impossible for trans people to live in society as
they can. And then you have kind of more like
tricky Republicans like de Wine sort of like pretending to
(39:42):
find some kind of compromise and be like oh, we're
just trying to work for like more comprehensive healthcare that
like so everyone gets what they need, and like sort
of like using some of the language that was used
by clinicians who are trying to fight against the band
and their testimony and you know, trying to claim make
(40:02):
these claims, but if we actually look at the details,
like the regulations they're proposing would make it nearly impossible
for anyone to transition, you know, both youth and adults.
And then you have like, you know, these different medical
professionals and kind of more liberal transphobic d trans people
who want more gatekeeping and regulation and control over trans
(40:25):
people and are kind of like using de transition and
transition regret as a justification for that or praising being
like oh well, Ohio, their youth clinics are already really
good because they're very cautious and they use therapy a
lot more than they actually allow youth to medically transition.
(40:46):
I mean, that argument didn't seem to work out at all. Instead,
it sounds like the governor kind of was like, oh,
two thirds of youth only get therapy instead of medical transition,
we should do that for everyone. Uh, It's like sort
of like you know, if you propose restrictions, say oh
this is great, then of course the people who are
more extreme will just like take that and run with it.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
And then you know you have uh, you know, d trans.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Turfs showing up and testifying for their own weird reasons.
You know, probably because of their connections to carry Galahan,
but you know, this also is a chance for them
to sort of like you know, launder their image, make
it seem like, oh, look we're good, we're good d
trans people, we oppose the religious right, we're fighting against
these bands.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And then people who don't necessarily like know any.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Better will like come here maybe right right, because this
is like that's a strategy. They often pretend to be
more trans friendly than they really are to sort of
like draw people in or be able to like influence
queer and trans communities and slowly slip in like crypto
turf ideology and recruit people.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Or just yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
So, I mean it's like there's just a whole lot
of different and you know, anti trans groups and individuals
like stretching from like paternalistic medical professionals who want more gaykeeping,
who want to restrict the number of people transitioning like
all the way to you know, like Christian nationalists you
want to just you know, wipe us out completely.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
And you know, not only.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Uh, you know, are basically at war with bodily autonomy
in general.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
They don't want anyway. They want to be the ones
to control what people do with their bodies.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Like they also want to you know, restrict reproductive care
and abortion.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
It's all part of the same war.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Uh, just control people and assort their version of authoritary
in Christianity. And then you have you know, uh, you know,
weird de trans turfs, and it's just like all you
kind of have to like understand like all these different
factions and how they sort of like interact together and
how you know they try to use each other, you know,
con see them overwhelming. But like the more we kind
(42:52):
of understand like what we're up against, like the easier
it is for us to develop strategies of resistance. And
it's like, you know, even though you know, it can
seem like we're up against a lot of different groups,
but like, you know, we're also part of this larger
fight for liberation, and you know, we can connect, you know,
with with feminists who are fighting for reproductive autonomy. We
(43:13):
can connect with like disability liberation activists who are fighting
for better healthcare for everyone. We do potentially have lots
of allies. We do have lots of connections like with
other movements, And so when you think of it that way,
it's like, Okay, we're not just like one small group
up against this whole like Goliath. Let's like, no, We're
(43:34):
part of this larger movement that is fighting so that
everyone is free and that everyone gets the health care
they deserve.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, And I mean, I think that one of the
one of the sort of tangential things here too is,
you know, this is an extremely negative example of the
amount of influence that a very very small number of
people can wield who have extremely unpopular ideologies. On the
other hand, there are a lot of us, and the
things that we believe are very popular, and you know,
(44:04):
the amount of power that we can wield if we
are willing to organize and are when we understand what
we're organizing against is immense, and it is enough to
drive these people into the fucking ground.
Speaker 6 (44:16):
Hell yeah, yeah, it could happen here as a production
of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Al Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Dick It Happened Here, a podcast that is
in no small part about the increasing and escalating series
of anti trans laws being passed around the country. It's
another one of those episodes. Things are getting worse, things
are also getting weird. And with me to talk about
worse and weird is Kay and Lee from Health Liberation
(00:29):
Now welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I'm excited to talk to you both because, Okay, very
very odd stuff has been happening. So the main reason
I wanted to have yout you on is to talk
about the stuff that's been happening in Ohio. So for
people who are unaware, Ohio's legislature has been trying to
pass a very draconian ban on all gender firm macare
(00:52):
for minors. The States Republican governor vetoed the bill and
this was for about one day. There was a lot
of sort of like liberal cheering about like ah, compassionate Republicans,
blah blah, blah blah. And then immediately after that, like
like like the next day, when all of all of
us we haven't even like we hadn't even really gotten
into the weight hold on He's going to do something else. Uh.
(01:14):
The thing that Dwine did is is, you know, and
this is this is being framed as like an attempt
to stave off the veto, which hasn't worked so far,
but he immediately implemented a bunch of rules that say
that in order to get gender firming care, and this
is true of both miners and adults, which makes it
(01:34):
in a lot of ways more draconian than the actual bill.
It's quote unquote supposed to be preventing like getting passed.
If you want to get gender refirming care, you need
recommendations from a psychiatrist, an endocrinologist, and a bioethicist. And
also all gender firmingcare in the state has to be
(01:54):
reported to the government there and there's like other stuff too.
So this is the technical term for this is this
is extremely bad.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean he also signed an executive
order just banning surgery for everyone under eighteen too. Yeah,
so yeah, yeah, I mean also I think I believe
it was like everyone under twenty one also had to
go through six months of counseling as well.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yes, yeah, at least six months of counseling. Yeah, there's
no upper.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Cap mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
And like a lot of this was the wine and
his spokespeople have ended up like justifying a lot of this,
like trying to use language from clinicians working at clinics
in Ohio that see trans youth and be like, well,
you know, they're taking this comprehensive, multidisciplinary approach, and most
(02:55):
of the people they see like get counseling instead of
medical transitions. So they're actually like using a lot of
the testimony against the band to try to justify these
rules and regulations. And I don't think they're acting in
good faith because when you actually like look at the details,
are like, well, this would basically make it almost impossible
for anyone at any age to transition. But it's like,
(03:15):
you know, it's a very sneaky smart move, right, like
being like, oh, look, we're trying to find a compromise.
We're trying to make sure everyone gets good healthcare, and
you know, unfortunately sometimes liberals and liberal media I'll just
kind of eat that up without really looking at the details.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, And one of the things that's happening here too
is that so the US, where in places where there's
pretty good access to gender affirming healthcare, it works off
of something called informed consent and informed consent is like, okay,
so you go there, they tell you what is going
(03:53):
to happen, and you talk you talk to like a
nurse or a doctor, and then once you know the
life like what you're actually getting into, you say yes
or no if you want to do something right, and
you know, this is a this is a pretty good system.
It still can be really annoying to navigate because of
insurance stuff, and you know, like there's definitely problems with it,
(04:16):
but it's a it's a much better system that exists
in a lot of places. And you know, I think
there have been two sets of comparisons about what these
restrictions look like. And we're going to get to the
comparisons to uh TARP restrictions on abortion in a second,
but I want to talk about another thing that these
restrictions strike me as very similar to, which is the
(04:36):
British system. And the way the British system works is
you get put on a wait list and then you die,
or you go to our media like those are those
are your options?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Right?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Or or you're really wealthy and you can you can
bypass the public healthcare system and go to the private
healthcare system. But you know, like I hope, like I
hope you are like the air to mansion before you
start that process, or you're in serious trouble. The thing
about the British system is there's all of these paths
of interlocking experts you have to go through in every
(05:06):
single you have to get signatures from every single one
of them. And what this means is you have this
enormous sort of interminable British gender bureaucracy whose only job
and only the only thing they want to do is
stop you from getting healthcare. There's a very very good
Philosophy Tube episode about this about what it's actually like
to be in that system, and it's terrible. And this
(05:28):
is a this is what the kinds of things that
are being proposed to here are. In a lot of it's
not exactly the same as a British system, but it's
it's bringing it much closer to that system where it's
basically impossible to get healthcare. And the thing about the
British system and about these restrictions where you know, you
have to have like a bioethicistant, a psychiatrist and endocrinologist,
(05:50):
and you have to like do all you have to
jump through all of these troops is that at every
single point in the process, there is another gender bureaucrat
who can just buy themself self decide that they're just
doing a trans healthcare band. And you know, every every
individual person you put into the process is another person
who could just say no. And that's what the bridge
system works, is that someone in the process just says
(06:12):
no and you die in a wait list.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I mean, we know trans people in Britain and in
other European countries where they have like a lot of gatekeeping,
and you know, all of them have warned us like
you do not want this coming to the US. Yeah,
you know, reminding us like all the time, like how
much easier are a lot of us trans people have
it in terms of accessing healthcare?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And just like, yeah, I mean everything I've heard about.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Like the UK healthcare system sounds like nightmarish. People asking
invasive questions about like your sexuality or your trauma history
or for youth that often ends up like involving like
genital inspections. For some reason, it just sounds like a horrible, dehumanizing,
violating experience.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
And then yeah, and like a lot of people like.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Spend years and years if they you know, and are
lucky if they do it, are able to access care.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
A lot of people have to go private if they
can afford to.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Honestly, before, I mean technically it was during but before
the full like onslaught of bills started to hit the US,
Like there were Brits that were trying to sound the
alarm and get the message out to US base.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah, like it was around when the Currabell ruling happened.
Crabell was a d trans woman who's lawyer was affiliated
with the ADF, with the British branch of Alliance Defending Freedom,
which is behind a lot of the it's like an
international Christian nationalist organization that's behind a lot of the
healthcare bands in the US as well.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Also the abortion birth control.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah, really nasty people. But anyway, so like Currabell, this
this t trans woman.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
It's like she.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Sued the NHS for allowing her to transition and originally
like won her case and that led to basically like
the end of positioning for you.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, she submitted a judicial review.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
The initial review was favorable to her, but upon further review,
the appeals did end up overturning it. But by that
point the damage had already been done. Yeah, a bunch
of people were starting to lose access to to care
and the likes and the wheels were starting to spin
internally as well in terms of the Tavistock system and
(08:33):
so like. As a result, like the wait lists just
ended up getting longer and longer and longer.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
So that was like a huge blow that happened in
the UK, and like UK trails people like basically like
by that point starting trying to warn people in the US,
like this is going to come for you too, Yeah,
like get ready, like they had already been already been
like suffering under this like no anti transplits for a while,
and they like knew it was going to spread on
(08:59):
the board of the UK, And unfortunately it has.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, in like the very early stages of our project,
when we launched at the beginning of twenty twenty one,
almost immediately after the Carabell initial ruling, we hosted a
transcript of a podcast from Blood and Turf that was
trying to deliver this message over to US based comrades.
And unfortunately it does not appear to have reached as
(09:24):
many people as it really needed to. But we do
have that available in the event that people can still
learn from it, because this onslot is not going to stop.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
Yeah, it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, And I think one of the things that we're
seeing now is that we're now seeing kind of an
opening of new fronts in a way where you have,
in the same state at the same time you have
both what I guess I would call the American style
approach of just straight up bands and then this kind
(09:57):
of an attempt to implement this sort of British like,
you know, attempt to implement this sort of like British
endow bureaucracy system. And one of the things that's been
happening with this is, you know, okay, so there's a
lot of places where there's inspirations coming for this, and
I think, you know, we mentioned it briefly earlier. One
(10:18):
of the inspirations for this is obviously parp restrictions on abortion,
where you have these like unbelievably restricted like basically these
targeted things. When before before Roe v. Wade collapsed, there
was you know, you could you could ban abortions by
for example, you know, saying like passing a bill that
(10:40):
says that like, okay, if you want to do abortions
in a hospital, the walls in the hallways have to
be like exactly like this diameter, which is not the
same diameter as like as as normal hospital walls are.
So now you can't do abortions in hospitals, and so
they do things like this, right, and this is you know,
this has been a huge problem for a long time
(11:03):
answer anti abortion activists. I've been talking about it for ages.
The Democrat Party did nothing, So you know, that's I think,
I think it's sort of like forwarding of where this
is going.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, a direct parallel is actually over in Arizona, if
I remember correctly, because one of the things that they
ended up doing down in Arizona is a requirement that
they tried to implement was this rather controversial piece where
they also had to provide information on abortion reversals using
(11:40):
certain types of hormone care. Right, similar to how in
order for people to be able to provide gender affirming
care they have to provide information about detransition and stuff
like that. But when you actually start to look at
some of the data, not all of it, it's some
of the data that they are relying on to inform
(12:01):
people of this. It is a wildly biased sample or
just downright pseudoscience, right, Like, they looked at the evidence
base for the abortion reversals and it didn't actually work
the way that they were saying it was, and it
was actually coming from very very very explicitly motivated groups.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So, Yeah, like abortion has been difficult to access in
Arizona for a very long time in part because of
some of these like obnoxious requirements that people end up
putting into place through trap laws.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and you know, I think it's it's worth noting that, like,
and this is true of both the anti trans bands
and the and anti abortioning legislation, is that, like it's
the science, they're just making it up a lot of
the time. Like, you know, one of the like one
of the very famous things there is these like fetal
heartbeat bills that required like and the thing about like
(12:58):
fetal heartbeat bills is that fetuses don't have heartbeats. You're
not hearing a heartbeat. Like doctors will like force you
to listen to this. It's like that it's not what's happening.
It's literally not a heartbeat. But these people, like they
put a stethoscope to a woman's chest and heard a
beating and we're like, oh shit, it's the baby's heart.
And it's like, no, it doesn't have a heart, Like wait,
(13:21):
this is a fetus, Like what are you even talking about.
But you know, and this kind of stuff, right is
you know, they're they're they're they're basically they're they're doing
just scientific malpractice, right, They're straight up lying to people,
and then they're using that as a justification for you know,
actual legislation which has sort of material impact and like
(13:41):
you know, carries the force of the law behind it,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we've been seeing
a lot of very similar kinds of things from from
these anti trans legislation. And one of one of the
ways that they've been able to use sort of pseudoscience
to get restrictions on healthcare past and this is this
(14:02):
is true both of sort of the straight up bands
and also of these kind of like massive bureaucratic restrictions
is by allying with groups of sort of of right
wing detransitioners. And we're going to talk about that more
after this ad break, because we unfortunately are reliant on
ads to cover this stuff. So yeah, here's here's ads. Okay,
(14:36):
we are back, and this is the point where we
need to talk about the stuff in the Ohio story
that is very weird. Now. I think if people have
been following the story of sort of anti trans bills,
one of the things that's been happening a lot is
there's been this sort of there's there's a network of
(14:58):
people who de transition and for various reasons I don't know,
who have become very very hardline right wingers who have
basically been doing like circuits of the capitals of you know,
like state capitals and like going to Capitol Hill and
like telling their quote unquote stories to try to get
this to try to get like all trans healthcare bands. Now,
(15:20):
so this is you know, this is something we've covered
on the show in the past. What is very weird
about Ohio is that you had a group of these
right wing transitioners who specifically we're trying to get it
looked like at very at least we're trying to get
we're trying to stop the like the actual uh like
(15:41):
gender firming care ban from going through, and we're in
favor of more of this restriction stuff. Is that is
that is that what am I getting this right?
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Not not exactly. There's a couple of.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
No, okay, Le, sorry, I'm I.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I can provide my my brief description here real quick,
and then you can retake aspects of that stuff. Because
something to bear in mind is the fact that, like
some of the opposition in the Ohio testimonies are actually
coming from people who view themselves as very left wing.
These are radical feminists. Specifically, they are just hardcore opposing I.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Mean, I would say they're they're actual politics are for
a reactionary.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Even Yeah, they call.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
Themselves left wing.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
They see themselves as being opposed to the right, like
that's how they present themselves, and they definitely believe that
their anti right wing.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
But there's there's also another component. This one is like
the nuances are sometimes almost impossible to be able to
tease out.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
I swear tomato tomato.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
But one of the people who was a proponent for
both this current bill and a past bill is actually
Corina Cone, who does not consider herself to be right wing.
Though she does here to be working with a number
of right wing people, she considers herself to be quote
unquote libertarian. Now, this is a red flag for those
(17:10):
of us who have done any sort of like real
engagement with certain types of libertarians or political organizing or
whatever in that if you actually pay attention to some
of the arguments that are being made or the collaborations
that are being made, you can generally tell which direction
their politics are truly leaning towards right?
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Is it left wing? Is it right wing?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
And hers have been steering far and far more right wing.
Like she uses the excuse of, you know, I want
small government and stuff like that, but if you're working
with like legislators to put in full on bands, I'm sorry, honey,
(17:52):
that's not small government.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
That's not small government.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
That is the opposite of small government actually, and so like, like,
it's kind of hard to sort of like encapsulate the
entirety of like the proponents of the opposition into particular
political alignments because a lot of it is really based
off of, like what are their motivations and who are
(18:16):
they willing to work with?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
Which again, tomato, tomato.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
But I'll have to come back to the Corona Cone
one at some point here too, because that one is
actually an important timeline in terms of understanding the Ohio bills.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
Mm hmm, yeah, I mean basically, I mean you have
like these. You do have like right wing beat transition
people like Chloe Cole or Christian Boseley, Laura Becker who
like do you know they they'll be hanging out with
like the Heritage Foundation or Billboard Chris or the Cue Shop, yeah,
(18:50):
or Our Duty like and they very much are just
working to try to pass these full on bands. But
then yeah, you have also these like d trans Turf
and they're more liberal fellow travelers who definitely see themselves
as being opposed to the right and are opposed to
I mean they they're opposed to the right because they
(19:11):
see right being Christians as being a threat to them
as well, and are at least smart enough to understand
that if you know, right being Christians have their way,
they're going to suffer too. But they also want to
end trans healthcare or restrict it.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
I mean some of the.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Two of the people who helped organize, helped collect the
testimony the group statement that was submitted under the name
are you asking why Max and Katie Robinson they have
ties to Janice Raymond?
Speaker 5 (19:39):
That's serious, Yeah, they do.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Janis Raymond help publish Max Robinson's book over Ats Spinefects
Press this Swurf and Turf publisher. So yeah, they they're
not actually approach Frans.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Like, yeah, well we should, we should mention. So Janis
Raymond for people who some we we've talked about on
the show a few times, but Shann's Raymond wrote a
book called The Transsexual Empire, and okay, so people normally
leave off the subtitle of it, which is called It's
the Transsexual Empire. The Making of the She Mail. It's
like one of the original like original anti trans people,
(20:18):
like incredibly violent transfo like like both both in terms
of like the career of her work, like physically like
violently anti trans and yeah, yeah, she is. She is
connected to a lot of the modern anti trans groups
and also the modern like the modern I don't know
what you'd call them, people who are attempting to take
(20:42):
away trans healthcare but who don't see themselves as anti trans.
Speaker 5 (20:45):
I have no idea how to even summarize that.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, bad, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I kind of yes, yeah, yeah, so like I mean yeah,
and I mean yeah, Max and kid fully endorse, uh,
Janice Raymond's theories.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
I mean Janice Raymond.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
One of the things she's famous for is saying that like,
like transsexualism should be morally mandate out of existence, like
Max Robinson has said that she supports that. They also
both I mean Janice Raymond focused heavily on trans women overall,
and you know, also claim that basically like trans women
(21:23):
were you know, committing sexual assaults against women just for existing. Yeah,
Max and Kitty are also horrible transpasogynists to actually make
I mean, Kitty makes a lot of propaganda tracking attacking
transomen and trying to cast all trans women as predators.
And yeah, just not people you want on your side,
because they're not.
Speaker 5 (21:44):
They're danger to all trans people.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
They're just like trying to find a way to influence
trans healthcare in.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
A different way. And I mean, I I'm.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Concerned that people will hear like, oh, look at all
these ds, like these supposedly trans friendly, these trans people
who testified against this ban, now realizing that these are
actually like person with an agenda who I mean part
of them. Part of what they want to do is
to infiltrate like queer entry on subcultures and promo like
profideology and recruit people.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Like let's put it this way, So Max Robinson in
terms of some of her beliefs, refers to medical transition
for like trans masculine folks as a sato ritual, going
back to Mary daily types of.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Descriptions of things.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
And then Kitty was one of the people that was
interviewed for and gave extensive background information for a BBC
article that was released. I believe it was called something
along the lines of we are being pressured into sex
by some trans women, which is basically good, yes, that
one right, like so yea even into this narrative that
(22:52):
trans women are sexual predators right into the British media
when they were already having a massive influx of anti
trans media that was again feeding into the demonization of
trans people as a whole, but then also like controlling
trans youth and the likes and of course this article
not only did it end up originally platforming like an
(23:14):
actual like serial.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Rape yeah, Lily kaid like someone someone a serial rapist
so prolific that like, within like maybe thirty minutes of
this article going up, like multiple like probably like a
dozen people had come forward and been like she raped
me like that. That is the person that the BBC
was like coming forward to do this shit with.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, she ended up posting basically a manifesto on her
website that was even more extreme than aspects of the
article showed off. And then I will also note that
this article was originally I believe it was only translated
into Portuguese in order to be oh yeah, moved into
BBC Zila Yeah yeah, which is also one of the
countries has one of the highest rates of trans femicide.
(24:02):
So like, yeah, these these are the people that decided
to go ahead and testify.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah, Like, well, I'm those of personally bring up Max
and Kitty because like they were some of the people
who helped like get the testimonies, Like I found a
post on Kitty's tumblr blog looking for d trans and
desisted women who were willing to testify against a ban.
And then Max was the one who actually submitted the
collective statement from Arius king Wise, he also submitted an
(24:30):
individual statement to So basically like they found a bunch
of like detrans and desisted turfs on Tumblr to sign
a statement and then submit to like the state of Ohio,
which is kind of wild to think about.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, you don't normally expect to see testimony from turf tumblr,
let alone transfer Tumblr.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
But that is like that happened? Yeah? Really who you
want to show up for you?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah? Really not good in terms of who you want
doing your.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
Legislation, Like oh god, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So okay, we need to take another ad break and
then we will come back and talk more about this.
So enjoy your brief capitalistic respite from the horror of capitalism.
(25:28):
We are back.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
In order to properly understand the situation in Ohio, you
kind of have to go back several years, right. One
of the bills that ended up being proposed in twenty
twenty was HB five to one three. This was another
version of a proposed ban on gender firming care for
(25:50):
trans youth in particular, and it was sponsored by Representatives
Ron Hood and Bill Dean. This one is interesting because
one of the group that ended up coming out in
opposition to it was the Gendercare Consumer Advocacy Network. This
is the organization that I helped found in twenty nineteen
(26:12):
prior to my resignation. They submitted this opposition after my resignation,
but it is available on archives. Then, in twenty twenty
one and the twenty twenty two legislative session, there was
the proposal for HP four or five four, which was
another proposed ban on gender for main care for trans youth.
(26:34):
This time it was being sponsored by Representative Gary Klick,
who was also the sponsor of the current bill that
had recently been vetoed and then the V two vtwed
And in May of twenty twenty two, the Gender Care
Consumer Advocacy Network or GCCAM testified in tentative support. The
(26:57):
testimony was submitted by coronicone and included suggestions for amendments.
These amendments are actually very important. One of the amendments
that she recommended was on data tracking. I believe it
says here The second amendment would be a requirement for physicians,
mental health care providers, and other medical healthcare professionals mandating
(27:20):
an annual report to the Ohio Department of Health the number, age,
and sex of minor patients who are receiving gender transition
services of any type. This was what she originally proposed
as an amendment to the bill. The bill again did
not end up passing, but now we are seeing HB
(27:41):
sixty eight, which is the one that merges the ban
on gender forming care for trans youth and a sports ban.
Because I guess you know, trans youth plane chess is
somehow like threatening. But so this one was again represented
like sponsored by reps preentive Click, and this time, curiously enough,
(28:03):
Karina had been working more extensively with Click during various
portions of the.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Of the push for the bill.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Right, you know, she testified multiple times she's posted videos
with him, pictures, et cetera. Another person who had originally
founded the organization, Carrie Callahan, did originally start opposing. Curiously
she did not note her prior experience with the organization,
but she did start to oppose the bill, and then
(28:37):
later starts to put out basically like a more general
call for opposition to HB sixty eight, right, you know,
trying to collect in you know, various types of detransitioned
people who were opposed to bands on gender affirming care right,
(29:00):
and then who is it that ends up showing up?
It's this weird little like Turf group that originally came
out of d Trans Turf Tumbler in twenty thirteen, that
historically speaking, she had prior working relationships with and even
(29:24):
presented their stories to us path.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Yeah, and also I mean Max Robinson too, like both
her both Max Robinson and Carrie Callahan were both featured
in Jesse Single's Atlantic article too. There's lots of points
of connection. They've been they've known each other since at
least twenty sixteen, and you know, work together.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Like I can't say for certain how it is that
they ended up there. Personally, to me, it seems a
little weird that people who had prior relationships dating back
a decade are showing up in the same place again,
And like they are also showing up in legislative testimony
(30:12):
for the first time in the state where some like
one of the central figures for a long time there
is putting out a call to oppose this particular bill.
Like the coincidences are racking up a little bit here.
It might be good to ask some further questions about
what exactly happened, because I have some questions. So, you know,
(30:37):
this happened in December of twenty twenty three. Right. Eventually
Governor Dwine goes ahead and vetos. But at the same
time he makes his you know, proposal for the drafting
of new regulations with you know, the Department of Health
and the likes, and within that is the suggestion of
(31:00):
detailed data tracking. That is reported to the Department of
Health and then to the general public every six months,
focusing on things like, you know, I don't think that
he wanted to focus on like the number of people
(31:21):
that were doing it, but he did include a like
the nature of the diagnosis. It applies to all ages.
It was not originally restricted to trans youth, like the
original testimony was from from gc CAN. The time range
was also ended up being like it's shortened. He wants
(31:43):
it every six months, not every year. But you know,
very similar kinds of things, right in terms of what
it is that he is proposing for this mass collection
of data and a previous testimony that was submitted to
the Ohio Legislature. In fact, like not long after that fact,
(32:05):
Representative Clique ended up going on an interview with Tony
Perkins of Family Research Council talking about the pending veto.
They originally did this interview on January ninth, and he
noted that the data collection suggestion was originally included in
a draft version of his bill, but was removed due
(32:26):
to opposition, and so he's glad actually that that was included,
although he wished that there would be even more restrictions.
He actually was going to encourage the governor to also
sign an executive order banning the use of puberty blockers,
not just surgery. As far as I can tell, that
has not happened, but he did say that he was
(32:47):
going to try. But like it's like there's there's definitely
some weird kind of like escalations that end up happening,
and some of the like some of the interconnecting threads
with individuals that again just happened to keep showing up
(33:08):
in the same place over and over and over again,
either in support or in opposition. Some folks have been
consistently opposed, whereas other people have been kind of flip flopping.
The GCCN organization is one of the ones that flip flopped.
It originally opposed all bands, and then now all of
(33:30):
a sudden, it's like, you know, the person that they
are throwing out into these testimonies was arguing in favor
of them, and then like, you know, the the quote
unquote are you asking why? Collective and to be fair,
Carrie Callahan have also been firmly opposed to full on
bands and the Christian right pretty much from the beginning,
(33:51):
though for very very very different reasons.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
I mean some other opposition was like, well, people will
go to like could go to other states where there's
less restrictions, Like no, the stuff we have, you know,
HIAS already like has a lot of restrictions, and majority
of trans youth like only get counseling and they don't
get any like none of them get surgery, and most
of them, like only a very small number of them
get puberty blockers or horrormones. So this should be like
(34:17):
this should be an example for the entire country. Like
that was kind of Carrie Gallahan's take on things. And
then like I mean, yeah, a lot of the more
like the d trans turfs, like the Robinson's or other
members of our vesting wives. It's like, okay, well they're
opposed to the Christian Right, and they recognize that like
(34:38):
if the Christian Right gains more power and is banning things,
that's bad not just for trans people but also for
you know, cis, lesbian and gay people and says women
and you know it will end up hurting them too.
So I mean, even from a self preservation stance, they
understand like why they should be opposed to the Christian Right,
but they're still if you actually read their testimony. A
(34:58):
lot of them do make it clear that they're posed
to transition. Like one one person called it like compared
medical like trans healthcare to like a hydra said that
like it would only be cutting off ahead.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Like these aren't.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, and so a lot of them were, you know,
we're also kind of praising uh, you know regulations like
the group uh statement talks about like it's like, you know,
shutting down clinics when improve anyone's quality of care. Ohio's
existing programs are known for their moderation.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
They don't perform surgery on minors. Many clinics out of
state do. Lata YadA.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
So Max Robinson's testimony also said similar, but that she
had it on good word from an Ohio in right,
I have yes, you had.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Say I hear if I'm good authority from an Ohio
in that pediactric gender clinics there prescribed hormones pretty sparingly
and don't actually perform any underage transition surgeries. Other states do, though,
So there's like this whole thing. It's like like they're
still kind of scaremonger.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
It's like, oh, but these other.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
States, like we're transition as a minor those are bad,
but they're still making it clear that the idea that
people having easy access to transition, especially as youth, is like.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
A bad thing in their minds.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
I don't think we actually mentioned like how like if
you actually look at the collective statement, that are you
asking why issued and like who signed it? Like a
whole bunch of them didn't actually transition, Like a lot
of them are actually desisted, which means that they like
never actually medically transitioned. They considered transitioning or maybe socially transitioned,
but then they decided not to medically transition, possibly after
(36:42):
you know, converting to anti transfeminism or the like. So
it's just a bunch of people who like I decided
not to transition. I'm desisted, like you know, testifying against
a healthcare ban. It's also like a kind of a
classic strategy too. It is like they have a bunch
of like desisted people along mixed in with people who actually,
so you like, transition and do transition to kind of
like inflate the numbers. Yeah, this is a standard. Yeah, this
(37:05):
is very standard. It's an old trick. It's it's like
oh yeah, you're like okay, yeah, and then a bunch
of them are also like saying the ones who did
like you know, transition and new transition, they're like emphasizing
how they a few of them like are emphasizing how young.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
They were when they transitioned and be transitioned. Again, not exactly, yeah,
not exactly.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Protrums this collective here with like pretty pretty explicit turf ties,
including some of them directly to Trannis. Rammond herself was
the bulk of the opposition de transitioned people to the bill.
I should note, like that's fifteen signatures right there. People
(37:44):
are talking about like how there were nineteen people that
were opposed, so fifteen of them were either like part
of the recruitment or actively recruited on d trans turf tumpler.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Yeah, and then like at least five of them are
just assisted they're transitions. It's not clear about everyone, but yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (38:09):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
It's just.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
It's really weird. And it's also been really weird to
see the media just kind of take that.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
Testimony of theirs at face value that it's been a
problem for a long time. It is like getting the
media to actually sort of like investigate or care about
people's like political views or activism or actually kind of
being like like sometimes like I think, like I say,
like the Basilon New York Times story we were talking
about before, has Grace Liton Ski Smith and there without
(38:43):
saying that she was you know, affiliated with J. C.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Kan and she's like not just with the president, she
was the president. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
It's like, Okay, she's just like represented as just like
you know, as a deutrons woman without going into like
actually she's the head of this political organization, and that's
just this has happened.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
This has been a problem for years.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
Yeah, So it's just like, I mean, just a whole
lot of different sketchy characters kind of came out for
what's going.
Speaker 5 (39:13):
On in Ohio. I mean, you have like.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
You know, Republicans and right wing Christians who just want
to straight up ban transition and move towards eliminating it
for for all trans people and workers, making it, you know,
as impossible for trans people to live in society as
they can. And then you have kind of more like
tricky Republicans like de Wine sort of like pretending to
(39:42):
find some kind of compromise and be like oh, we're
just trying to work for like more comprehensive healthcare that
like so everyone gets what they need, and like sort
of like using some of the language that was used
by clinicians who are trying to fight against the band
and their testimony and you know, trying to claim make
(40:02):
these claims, but if we actually look at the details,
like the regulations they're proposing would make it nearly impossible
for anyone to transition, you know, both youth and adults.
And then you have like, you know, these different medical
professionals and kind of more liberal transphobic d trans people
who want more gatekeeping and regulation and control over trans
(40:25):
people and are kind of like using de transition and
transition regret as a justification for that or praising being
like oh well, Ohio, their youth clinics are already really
good because they're very cautious and they use therapy a
lot more than they actually allow youth to medically transition.
(40:46):
I mean, that argument didn't seem to work out at all. Instead,
it sounds like the governor kind of was like, oh,
two thirds of youth only get therapy instead of medical transition,
we should do that for everyone. Uh, It's like sort
of like you know, if you propose restrictions, say oh
this is great, then of course the people who are
more extreme will just like take that and run with it.
Speaker 5 (41:08):
And then you know you have uh, you know, d trans.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
Turfs showing up and testifying for their own weird reasons.
You know, probably because of their connections to carry Galahan,
but you know, this also is a chance for them
to sort of like you know, launder their image, make
it seem like, oh, look we're good, we're good d
trans people, we oppose the religious right, we're fighting against
these bands.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
And then people who don't necessarily like know any.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Better will like come here maybe right right, because this
is like that's a strategy. They often pretend to be
more trans friendly than they really are to sort of
like draw people in or be able to like influence
queer and trans communities and slowly slip in like crypto
turf ideology and recruit people.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Or just yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:56):
So, I mean it's like there's just a whole lot
of different and you know, anti trans groups and individuals
like stretching from like paternalistic medical professionals who want more gaykeeping,
who want to restrict the number of people transitioning like
all the way to you know, like Christian nationalists you
want to just you know, wipe us out completely.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
And you know, not only.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Uh, you know, are basically at war with bodily autonomy
in general.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
They don't want anyway. They want to be the ones
to control what people do with their bodies.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Like they also want to you know, restrict reproductive care
and abortion.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
It's all part of the same war.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Uh, just control people and assort their version of authoritary
in Christianity. And then you have you know, uh, you know,
weird de trans turfs, and it's just like all you
kind of have to like understand like all these different
factions and how they sort of like interact together and
how you know they try to use each other, you know,
con see them overwhelming. But like the more we kind
(42:52):
of understand like what we're up against, like the easier
it is for us to develop strategies of resistance. And
it's like, you know, even though you know, it can
seem like we're up against a lot of different groups,
but like, you know, we're also part of this larger
fight for liberation, and you know, we can connect, you know,
with with feminists who are fighting for reproductive autonomy. We
(43:13):
can connect with like disability liberation activists who are fighting
for better healthcare for everyone. We do potentially have lots
of allies. We do have lots of connections like with
other movements, And so when you think of it that way,
it's like, Okay, we're not just like one small group
up against this whole like Goliath. Let's like, no, We're
(43:34):
part of this larger movement that is fighting so that
everyone is free and that everyone gets the health care
they deserve.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yeah, And I mean, I think that one of the
one of the sort of tangential things here too is,
you know, this is an extremely negative example of the
amount of influence that a very very small number of
people can wield who have extremely unpopular ideologies. On the
other hand, there are a lot of us, and the
things that we believe are very popular, and you know,
(44:04):
the amount of power that we can wield if we
are willing to organize and are when we understand what
we're organizing against is immense, and it is enough to
drive these people into the fucking ground.
Speaker 6 (44:16):
Hell yeah, yeah, it could happen here as a production
of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can find sources for It could happen here, Updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Host
Robert Evans
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