November 7, 2023 • 44 mins
In part 2 of our episode on settler colonialism in Israel we look at how the imperatives of the settler state and settlers themselves invariably leads to radical settler parties seizing power and waging genocides on the Indigenous population
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All the media. Welcome to Klappened Here, a podcast that
is once again about Palestine. Hopefully you listen to yesterday's
episode of this. One's going to be a little bit
out of sorts, but yeah, we are continuing and finishing
up a conversation about Israel and setular colonialism. So strap
(00:24):
in and enjoy the show. If you were trying to
generate in a lab a place where you could turn
a bunch of people into fascists, it would be it
would be these settlements. This has a bunch of downstream
political effects, right. One of them is that, okay, so
whose lands are you taking here?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
The answer here is it's a lot of Palestinian farmers.
And you know, once you kick farmers off their land,
they can't be farmers anymore. And this leaves them with
two choices. One slee Palestine altogether. And this is really
really hard. We talked about it on this show. It
is really really difficult to get out or your other
(01:06):
option is to become cheap labor for Israeli capitalists. And
this is another another part of the sort of self
reinforcing dynamic of these engines, right, is like, you know,
if if you're dealing with the population that doesn't have
the means to support themselves except for you know, these
these Israeli like work passes that they like, you know,
like bestow upon the benited population. Like it's it makes
(01:30):
it incredibly hard for there to be any sort of
physicist movement. And you know the other thing that David
Grea was pointing out that you know, he was, I
think like ahead of the curve on in a lot
of ways. Is I mean, this has been happening for
a long time, but the Israeli like electoral left is
just gone. Israelly Labor, which is like the like Israeli
Labor is the party that built Israel right, Like it
(01:52):
was Israeli Labor guys who like pulled together this the
entire Zionist coalition and like turned them in to the
engine that could actually win the war. In forty eight,
Labor was outperformed by fucking Handash in the most recent election.
This has happened several times. Hadash is an alliance of
the Israeli communists and like left Arab nationalists. And when
(02:14):
I say they do better, and it's not to say
that Hadash is doing well, but like you know, they're
both pulling at like four percent right, and Israeli labor
again like has ruled is ruled Israel for like a
like a very magnificant part of his history. They are
now nothing. Right, there's four percent of the vote. They
have the same amount of vote as the oldest as
the Israeli like and specifically I should mention this is
(02:35):
this is the this is the like anti occupation communists.
This is another one of the sort of dynamics of
settlerism that you know, this is sort of is universally true, right,
this is It's not just Israel where a bunch of
people who are normally leftist, a bunch of people who
like you know, fought in their own liberation struggles and
get turned into just like absolutely fanatical right wingers. There
(02:59):
are an enormous number of United Irishmen, rebels from the
Rebellion of eighteen seventy eight in Ireland who go to
the US and you know, wind up a bunch of
these people wind up in the American Army to a
bunch of these people wind up like I mean, I
guess it's technically not the Indian Wars, but like a
lot of these people wind up like fighting the Creeks
in eighteen twelve. These people could become the front line
(03:21):
of settler expansion in the US. And this this happens
again with like German and French like liberals and socialists
who flee the crushing of the eighteen forty eight revolutions.
It actually almost happened to Marx. He wound up not
going to the US. But there's a lot of settlers,
Like there's a lot of like of European socialists who
come to the US and see all of this land
and they go, oh shit, we can solve like we
(03:43):
can solve the problems of the old world. But it
is taking this land.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, having our little like k utopian socialist settlements. Was
it Owens or Jones or someone they had.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
These like, yeah, they.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Quake k utopian sort of settlement towns in someone else's land. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, and that's one of the ways has happened. There
there are other ways this happens too, where it's just people,
you know, it's not it's not even always utopian communities.
People a lot of and and this this is also
so okay. There are people who come over from the
eighteen forty eight revolutions who like, you know, like August
Van Willich is probably the most famous one, Like he's
he's a communist who ends up like fighting for the
(04:21):
union and then notably not fighting in the Indian Wars after.
But you know, a lot of these people they come
to the US and they're like, okay, well, so they're
like the fundamental contradiction of capitalism or whatever is that,
like you know, people like people, people are forced to
become like, as they would literally call it, like the
wage slaves of capital, right, And so these people take
(04:46):
a bunch of just incredibly bizarre stances, Like one they're
they're they're they're against the abolition of slavery because they
they're like, oh, well, if you free the slaves, these
people are going to compete with us for wage labor.
So either either they're pro slavery or they're like slavery
the like ending slavery is the thing they can only
happen with the end of capitalism, so we don't care
about it. Or and this is a very common thing
(05:08):
that this is one of them. This is i think
much closer to the Israeli dynamic. Is these people become
convinced that like the you know, The problem with Europe,
right is that you know, Europe is entirely ruled by
either feudalist or like feudal bearerans or capitalist right and
so there's no way for someone to like make like
make themselves in the world, right, there there's no way
for them to be independent like of the capitalist class.
(05:29):
But in but in the US there is because all
you have to do is, you know, instead of being
part of the like the industrial proletariat or whatever and
getting like crushed by the Buddha capital, you can just
go become a settler farmer. And this is this is
one of the defining ideologies of the US, Like Abraham
Lincoln talks about this, like the thing that makes the
US different from Europe is that like, yeah, you can
you can go be a settler, you can get your
(05:50):
own land. And this is something you can also trace
back to the foundation of Israel. Israel is created you know,
there are there are there are right wings Zionists, right,
but it's also created by liberal socialist communists and even
anarchists who fought the span a civil war who go
to Israel become Zionists, are armed by Stalin and these
(06:11):
people create like you know, these are the people who
do the knapa.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, lots of people were also, there were Jewish I
guess socialists is probably the best term for them who
would come to fight in Spain and then returned to it. Yeah,
people interested. Ranan Reign has done a really good paper
about some with people in international brigades. So not all
of them turned out to do the knakpa. To be clear, yes,
(06:37):
something some of them were. It's actually also it's actually
really sad to follow the plight of It's a slight divergence,
I guess. But Jewish people who had fled programs in
the early twentieth century grown up largely in New York
an extremely impoverished neighborhoods, fought facism in Spain, came home,
fought fatuism again in the rest of Europe after like
(07:00):
pointing at it in nineteen thirty five and going bad,
and in America going now dog were good, and then
in nineteen forty one going who could have foreseen this?
And then they come in the meantime they see Stalin
signing a pact with fascism, right, and they feel horribly
betrayed and have to have to deal with either leaving
the Communist Party or working out in their own head,
how the fuck the people who kill their friends and
(07:21):
now their friends and then they come home after the war,
they're blacklisted under McCarthy and they see the nuck but happening,
you know, like later on, and they they're disgusted, right
like they everything that, like every sort of like identity
in group that they've had, they feel has turned against
the things that they think are morally right. And they
(07:41):
have these really difficult lives despite like pursuing what most
of us would agree as in moral good throughout their lives.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, being being consistently world fucking sucks and that is.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
A yeah, Terrald will leave you behind.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah yeah, it was a fucking awful time to do that.
Yeah yeah, Okay, we should take another ad break and.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Then yeah, adverts are not consistently Marl who very unlikely.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And we are back. So we've been talking about the
capacity of settlements to change someone's politics, right, So it's
you know, it's as these labs of consciousness that produce
certain kinds of right wing politics and mentalities and you know,
and produce right wing soldiers, right, But the settlements also
do other things. And one of those things that they do.
(08:44):
Is the settlements are a big reason, you know, if
you were invested in the peace process, like this is
a big reason why the peace process failed was that
the settlers never had any intentions of abiding by any
of the treaties that were being signed by the Israelis. Right,
And this is something that is true transhistorically, right. This
is a dynamic you see in American history too. The
US science like hundreds of treaties with like like just
(09:07):
incredible numbers and indigenous nations. And do you know how
many of those trees I end up upholding.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, that's none.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, And you know, I mean you can look at
the Supreme Court, right, and you know the Supreme Court
will uphold laws from like seventeen ninety five, right, Yeah.
The one kind of law they will not uphold is
their treaty obligations, at which in which case they will
go literally they will just go, well, we are obligated
to do this under treaty, but it is too hard,
(09:35):
so fuck you.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, they'll go previous to that and
treat site the fucking Doctrine of Discovery or the Treaty
of Cso yeah, good old Rethpeed against the liberal hero. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And so you can look at this from sort of
two perspectives, right, you can look at this from this
perspective of the state, and you can look at it
from the respective of the settlers. And you know, I mean,
and I think I think I think there's a there's
a third view that's kind of sees them both as
an extension of the same thing, which is what we're
gonna sort of come to. But you know, you can
you can look at this treaty stuff, and you can
look at the fact that you know, both the settlers
(10:09):
and the Israeli governments like sign the Oslo Accords fully
intending to do more settlements, right, And this is this
is something that that like the Palestinians are watching, right,
Like if you're a Palasidian, like you are watching these
peace accords get signed, and then you are watching the
Israelis fucking bulldozing your house. Yeah, and and this is
this is this is a thing in the US too, right.
(10:30):
It's like everyone who signs a treaty get like, like
all of the nation to sign treaties get a get
a watch as the US is like oh well, actually,
like no, we never had any intention of like fulfilling this,
like no, We're just gonna keep exterminating you and like
chasing the sort of like like shattered remnants of your
tribes like literally across the entire fucking continents. And you know,
(10:52):
so so you can look at this from the from
the perspective of the state, and you know, like like
dealing dealing with the American state, Like it is well
known by every day and every race that has ever
had to deal with them that the white man is
duplicitous in a state is built on lies, and that
is only kind of a joke. Like everyone who fucking
deals with the Americans just like what the fuck is
wrong with these people? Like do you like do people
(11:12):
like not understand what an agreement is?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Like what you know, Yeah, this is something that like
I know, if you travel abroad and you work in
places where American forces have been nine times out of ten,
someone will sit you down in a tea house or
a coffee house and unbidden just be like what the
fuck is wrong with these people? Like like why do
they treat us like that? Like we fucking did everything
(11:35):
you asked and then you fucking abandoned us or killed us,
like like yeah, like everyone, and of course Sprain does
it too. I'm not saying like America spectrum, but fuck me,
America in the last two hundred years is really setting
you precedent for just like Jane has faced bullshit.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, and you know, and and and this, and it
is particularly bad when you're dealing with when you're dealing
with settlers, because you know, one of the one of
the things about the state is that the arc of
the state policy and settler colonies always bends towards injustice
in general, and in particular the thing it always bends
towards land seizures. It seeks to expand its base of power,
it's territorial base in its economy, which leads it to
(12:12):
push as far as it possibly can towards dispossessing the
indigenous population. Now, this is also the interest of settlers,
who act as a kind of extension of the state
that goes beyond its normal capacity to do what it
wants to do. And you know, in the US, the
human manifestation of this is Andrew Jackson, who is a
man who completely illegally on multiple occasions, just like conquered
(12:33):
Florida and you know, conquered Florida specifically. And this is
one of the like a couple of things. This is
what I have. I have a very good friend who
talks about this a lot because they're they've they've been
studying this period immensely. You're probably not listening, but love you, Yeah,
but talking about this a lot, which is that Andrew
Jackson is like big part of the reason why he's
going into Florida is specifically because he he wants to
(12:56):
smash these these like indigenous like black indigenous like like
Bauruin communities there. And so Jackson, you know jackx Jackson
like is is like under orders not to invade Florida.
He invades Florida. Anyways, you know, we we we get
were there's a very similar sort of tension between like
the courts and you know, like the courts in the
(13:19):
settler state that you have with the sort of international
community in Israel now, where like the courts are like
Andrew Jackson, you cannot do the trail of tears. Andrew
Jackson is just like fuck you, Like we're doing the
trailer of tears. We're going We're going to do a genocide.
And you know, and the thing the thing about what
Jackson represents, right, is that Jackson is is the human
(13:41):
embodiment of of all of these sort of structural like
he's the human and political embodiment of all of these
structural tendencies et cetera. Colonialism. Now. And one of the
things that that's I think is interesting about this is
that there are like all of the settler states, right,
you see this in like every single one. And I'm
going to talk about the US because that's the one
that like other than that I know the best. Well,
I don't probably probainlays like the US better than Israel.
(14:04):
But there are always times when this when when this
the federal government tries to crack down on settlers, right,
this happens like repeatedly. I mean this, And this is
the thing even like like the British are like spend
a lot of time trying to stop the colonists from
like moving like from moving west. And I think that
there's a lot of people who like have come to
(14:24):
believe that if they if the British had won the
American Revolution, that they would have been able to stop
the settlers. And no, like they wouldn't have been able
to they would have been able to maybe they could
have delayed it by twenty years, but no, there was
there was no one has ever really been able to
stop these people. And you know, the IDF, like we
(14:44):
talked about this a bit earlier, right, the IDEF in
two thousand and five did pull Like when they pulled
out of Gaza, they dragged like eight thousand center settlers
with them. But again, this is this is the dynamic
to like that's incredibly familiar to anyone who studied the
history of settlers in the US, is that government at
tempts to control settler expansion inevitably fail when convented with
the the you know, the these unstoppable twin economic and
(15:06):
twin imperatives of the economic benefit to the settlers and
also the sort of speculator, the speculative value of these
of this new land, the land speculators. But then the
the other problem is the inevitable rise of the settlers
themselves as the political bloc, which in the US, the
man who is the champion of the settlers is Andrew Jackson.
(15:29):
And this is you know, and when he comes into
and when he starts taking power, when he starts getting
power in the army, you get the conquest of Florida,
and when he becomes president, you have the you have
the trailer tears and Israel. This is this is represented
by Israel's overtly genocidal finance bitsiness at Betsiel Simotrich who
represents the Religious Zionist Party, And uh, I'll give you
(15:50):
all three guesses what those guys believe and if if
your guesses are they are unhinged settler racists and like
turbo home phobes, you're you're right on the buddy.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so he's a conspiracy theorist, like yeah, yeah, this
guy is unhinged.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
They're very open with their generalcidle.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah yeah, once.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Like there's no there's no subtlety. They're just like, let's
let's flatten what, let's flatten gus, let's kill them all,
you know what I mean. It's just like theycourage seem
like with a very Trumpian thing that's like encouraging the
hate that is there too fester.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It's particularly like to try to diverse again. I found
the fucking like, you can't support Palestinia liberation if you're
queer dunk that we see from like Zionist neoliberals to
be one of the most frustrating a like, you can
support what the fuck you want, Like you don't need
a condescending, fucking like resist mum in a minivan to
(16:55):
tell you what you can and can't believe, and like,
b go look up some of this guy's statements, because
fucking you ain't gonna find anyone who's more genocidal towards
queer people openly than this motherfucker.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I mean, Israel is like very well known for like
pink washing and pretending they're very progressive and supportive of yeah,
of queer people, when they're really not. I mean, this
country also is not, you know what I mean, Like
it's I think I think that argument is a very
privileged elitist one.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, and like like yeah, just like haha, homophobia exists there,
it's not. It's not a win for anyone. Yeah, if
you want to get married to someone of the same
gender as you in Israel, you do it on zoom
in fucking Utah like that that Like, when you've been
outflanked to the left by Utah, you've done fucked up.
You don't get to wave your pride flag at anyone.
(17:44):
Fuck off.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
This is one of the sort of progressive veneer of
the Israelis has been you know, like fading because these
the people who are coming to power. And then Yahoo
in some ways was one of the sort of anger
to this. But like this, and this is the thing
you're seeing in India too, right, Like whatever you get
a far right guy, right, the thing that inevitably generates
is people who are even further right than they are.
(18:06):
And that that's that that's what these these settler people are.
And and the thing is, like these settler guys, you
can't cover for them, like if you if they are
on camera for longer than about thirty seconds, they start
saying stuff like just the most unhinged, like We're gonna
kill all the Palestinians. They start saying like we're gonna
(18:28):
kill every Arab, like they start talking about various and
varies basically like their their their platforms that they you
know they're and then this is this is so part
of the reason that there are there there's a coalition
of of these like of these like far right settler
parties that are now backing net and Yahu. And this
is this is how net and Yahu has been able
to stay out of prison. Is that he's been able
to back enough, he's been able to buy off enough
(18:49):
of these people that they're backing his government so he
can stay Prime minister, so they can't charge him. But
the the you know, the the concession basically for this
was that these like this guy was just basically just
given control of a bunch of state military power, like
from the army in the West Bank. It's been given
(19:09):
to him in his settler fanatics. And you know, like
especially since like the Hamas attack, like these, the government
has been handing out guns these people like candy, yes,
and they've been using it just murder Palestinians and cold
blood and you know, I mean the things people do
a lot, right, so sometimes they just kill people. The
thing they do all the time is just in the
middle of the night, like if you're if you're living
(19:29):
in the West Bank, like a bunch of mass guys
will show up, they will break into your home. They'll
beat the shit out of you, and they'll say like
if you don't leave tomorrow, will kill you. And you know,
sometimes those guys are settlers, like are just like non
like I don't know, like non military settlers, right, they're
like settler civilians or whatever. Sometimes those guys are just
like the army, and there's no fucking way to tell
(19:51):
which one like, because again it's just a bunch of
people in masks appear in the night and break into
your house and start beating the shit out of you.
And these people, these are these are the people that
increasingly the Israeli political system is being run by and
and you can't and it is in a similar way,
just the way that Andrew Jackson just like rips off
(20:12):
this mask of sort of like New England gentility that
the US had like had had under like John Adams
and uh or like John Quincy Adams and like Minroe,
well Monroe's I guess, like a like Minroe's like a
you know, like another one of these like dignified Virginia
planter guys, and like you know, those people have do
(20:32):
a lot of the same violence that that Jackson does.
But Jackson is the guy who just rips the mask
off and is just you know, this completely unhinged settler
mediac who like this is the guy you killed it
like just murdered a bunch of people in duels, like
you know, and these are the kind of people who
are who are coming to powered. Is there a right now?
And this is this is a self reinforcing dynamic because
the more power these people get, right, the more they're
(20:54):
able to, you know, just carry out genocides. And the
more genocides are able to carry out, the more of
that they're the more people that they were able to
push into these territories that they've taken, and the more
people they put in these territories, the more of the
more of these like settler fanatics there are. And this
this is one of the big things that is driving
the entire conflict.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Well, I think a good thing to remember is that
last year there was an election like going into twenty
twenty three, and uh, Israel like put into power a
bunch of these right wing people. Was it twenty twenty
three with twenty twenty two? And was in track of time.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
He came in last he came in twenty Yeah, I
think he was a minute he was point to a
minister in twenty twenty two. But okay, sorry, the years
a time election is real, Yeah, I remember when.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
My point is that, like in recent history the last
couple of years, these extreme right wing racist people are
in power all the all the places of power, all
the ministers, all the whatever the shit they're all shared.
They all share this ideology that like Arabs must die.
Basically that's like they're the point is that they are
(22:02):
superior to Arabs and then they must die, and that
this is a diionus place that is.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Theirs and you know, and what these people are doing
when they're in power, and this is the thing that
this is one of the things they were trying to
do before the sort of like the current war started,
was they were trying to annex the West Bank. This
is a very explicit goal. Now this is a very
explicit goal of the settler parties. They will kind of
they know it's pretty hard for them to like leally
(22:29):
annex it, so they will talk about like effectively annexing
it and stuff like that. They do these sort of
like subtle metaphors, but like, yeah, what they want to
do is to kick people out of what's called Area See,
which is the majority of the West Bank, and they
want to kick all the like the immediate plans, I
want to kick all the people out of Area Sea
and push them into just like increasingly tiny corners of
(22:51):
the West Bank. And presumably because again if if you
listen to all of these people talk, right, it's that
they talk about like Jews have the right to live in.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
In look, Judae and Samaria, Yeah yeah yeah, the West Bank,
Yeah yeah, they have a restricted right.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
To live there. So and the thing is like, if
you believe that right, that means you have to kick
all the Penalusinians out of the West Bank entirely. Now
the places people have stopped. Sort of before the war,
the places people had stopped was like, well, okay, they
can live in Gaza. But now they're talking about, you know,
I mean just like taking over most of like just
taking over most of Gaza and driving the Palestinians out.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to lead like Jews have
a right to live in this place, doesn't have to
lead to thus we must genocide the people who live there,
right like we it like it. This is what happens
when we get a state that understands existence as destroying
anybody who is not in agreement with this right wing
genocidal fucking Outlook like it has been possible for people
(23:50):
of different faiths to live in different places, but.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, exactly existing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, this the ideaogy that is inherent to like
a Zionist militarized state will never allow that coexistence to happen, right,
because it relies on coexistence not being possible as part
of its narrative. For like Mia said, taking dominating and
appropriating that land and gaining the value from it.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
But it's the narrative that they need to say stuff
like oh, all the gardens should just go to Egypt
or whatever. It is, like it's all part of the
plan to kind of just like expel them so they can.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like it's not
like an explicit plan that they have a whiteboard and
they're like it is you know.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
They do actually occasionally just write it out. Sometimes they
do actually explicitly write the plans.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, you can say on ex dot com from time
to time. But it's inherent, as Mia said like several times,
to state and to a capitalist state that is a
settler colony, right, Like it's inevitable. It happened here, it's
happening there, It's happened all over the world. Like, it's
not possible to construct a capitalist state on someone else's
land and someone else's bodies. It doesn't do this.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, and I mean and this this is this is
also one thing I wanted to emphasize too, is that
all of the shit that's happening in Palestine happened here, right.
I mean, I guess like we, like the US, didn't
have the kind of surveillance technology in like the the
eighteen teens, right that the Israelis have now. But you know,
like we we did all this shit too, right, like
(25:24):
this is this is all of the land that we
live on. That's that's where that shit came from. There's
there's this great uh. I really love Daniel Connon the
Painted Bird. It has this great line in one of
his songs that goes because he's the one who did
the stealing and named you as the heir whose filthiness
provided you the privileges you bear. And this is this
(25:46):
thing in the US, right, like in Israel. You know,
if you're a settler on the border, right, there's no
there's no escape from what you did to take this place.
Right like you are you are looking down on the
people who you've like whose houses you've taken. Right in
the US, we have this sort of luxury of like, wow,
this happened a long time ago, Like we don't have
(26:06):
to sort of we don't have to see the consequences.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Of it, but we still do it right like we
didn't just like we're doing it at Oak Flat for
instance right now. Or yeah, look at how Trump fucking
did indigenous people during COVID, Like it's an ongoing process.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah right, yeah, it's it's so much easier for Americans
to pretend that it's not happening, and you know, like no,
like it turns out in fact like this, this, this,
and this is where the sort of sub of colonialism
of structure not an event stuff comes from. And it
applies to both Israel and the US because guess what.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Israel literally took notes for what the US did and
just did it, you know what I mean, Like it's
just the same thing in the end, Like we're the
bad guys, like we've always been the bad guys.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Are the bad guys? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
You know, I'm Chinese, right, And this is one of
the things that has informed a lot of my sort
of perspective on Palestine, because all of the things that
are happening to Palestine is shit that was done to
us by the Japanese Empire, right, And we fought a
war to stop them, and that war was hideous. That war,
(27:33):
the war in China sees some of the darkest moments
in human history. And there's this tendency among I mean,
you know, as a tendency among both both the communists
and the nationalists want to sort of sanitize it, right,
They want to turn it into this sort of glorious
war for liberation, and like, yeah, like there are moments
of like, you know, glorious anti imperialist struggle, but that
(27:54):
war mostly was just a horror. And it's a horror
not just because of the atrocities committed by the Japanese right.
The Chinese side in that war also does things that
are unforgivable. And I'm not even talking about Hiroshima and
Nagasaki here because you know, like we as in like
Chinese people, like we didn't do that right, like you
(28:17):
know Mao, like on the one hit. It is true
that when Mao found out about the nuclear eruptions, his
reaction was, way, you had a third bomb and he
didn't drop it on Tokyo. But like, you know, we
didn't do that, right, Like that was that was the
Americans that wasn't like that wasn't like us in China.
But you know, the things that I'm talking about that
(28:37):
the Chinese side of that war did that were just unforgivable,
you know. I mean, I think the best example of
it is Shangkhai Shek blew up a dam on the
Yellow River, and his goal was he was trying to
you know, he was trying to flood like several provinces
to cut off the Japanese army and to like slow
down their troop movements, right, and he slows down the
(28:58):
troop movements, and he does it by killing four This
is this is this is this is the low end
estimates is that he killed four hundred thousand people. That
is a an amount of death that is unimaginable. He
killed like in a single act, he killed four hundred
(29:20):
thousand people. It is two Hiroshima and Nagasaki's And that's
that's the low end estimate. Right, People, people, people fighting
against Japan, people fighting against colonialism, did unforgivable crimes. And
you know, and the people of of China like never forget,
like to this day, like in the provinces where like
where this shit happened, like Chang Kai Shek is fucking despised,
(29:43):
and you know, and like when when like when the
Allies won the war and when China drove out the Japanese, right, like,
the next thing they did was they drove out Shan
Kai Shack because he was you know, because because he
had done things in that war that were so terrible
that people willing to be like fuck it, Like Mao
didn't fucking blow up a dam and kill four hundred
(30:05):
thousand of US, right, you know, and so like, and
this is the thing about colonial resistance is that it
is the things that people do are unforgivable. Also that
that word that Japan fought in China they killed twenty
million of US twenty million. And this is one of
(30:25):
these things, right where like colonialism makes monsters of us.
All suffering does not make you knowable, just makes you suffer.
And so you know, again like the are like China's
anti colonial freedom fighters right like fucking killed killed numbers
of like Chinese people that are it's just unimaginable. And
then you know, these same freedom fighters who fought the
(30:46):
good fighting against Japan, you know, within twenty years they're
bulldozing Moss and shing John and murdering communists in Tibet, right,
and they've built two, you know, after successfully repelling Japan's
attempt to turn China into a settler state, they have
made two of their own. And you know, so like
there's there's no I think the point that I'm trying
to make here is that, you know, like anti colonial
(31:10):
resistance is not this sort of like it doesn't look pretty.
It's a fucking horror most of the time. But you also,
you know, when when you're looking into like when you're
looking at these wars, you have to look at the
direction in which colonization is moving. And that's you know,
that's the thing that is crystal clear in Palestine, right,
(31:32):
is you can just look at like which in which
direction is is colonization moving?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Like who is taking whose houses?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Who is who is forcing a million people from what
population to flee their homes? Who is you know, who
has been steel he has been seizing people's land. And
I think it clears up. I don't know, clears up
isn't the right word, but specifically the fact that this
is that this is active colonization, that this is this
is this the center of colonial state waging a war
(32:02):
against you know, people like people who are fighting against colonization.
That is the sort of that that that is the
the the underlying current of everything that happens. And and
you know, like I don't know, like people people in
anti colonial wars do things that are unforgivable and they
(32:25):
get you know, and like often like their own people
will eventually come for them one day. And also I don't.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Know, I've no one has to agree with me, It's fine,
But I personally really dislike when it's called a war
what's happening in Palestine because I just think it's the
clearest case of genocide I've ever seen. And like I
don't care how it started or whatever, I feel like
at this point in time, it's a genocide. Like if
(32:54):
Palestine's out of country, Palestine does not have an army,
they can't no one can leave Gaza.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I think that is the current state of what the
violence is going on over there.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And so yeah, just like particular, like I think I
think you're like, I think you're right about that. And
that's the thing that that's the thing that's different than
like the stuff that was happening in China was like
at least we sort of had like at least we
had a state, right, and we had armies, and our
armies got fucking stopped. But you know, we had like
we we we had actual weapons.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, I must have some now, But I think you're
to your greater point. Yeah, I think, like, well, yeah,
it sounds very similar to like have you read Challenges
Introduction to the Rest of the Earth, Yeah, like where
he talks about violence and the state talking in the
language of violence and people responding in the language in
which they're spoken to. I think I'm paraphrasing that relatively accurately.
(33:54):
It doesn't have to be like the violence has to
be good for it to be like an inevitable consequence
of violent colonialism, right that, like it sparks violent decolonization movements,
and it doesn't imply like a moral like goodness to
the individual acts. It's just an inevitable consequence of people
(34:16):
fighting against colonalism in the only way that that colonialism
kind of leaves for them, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And I think I think another part of this too
is that like just being in contact with colonial powers
makes everyone worse. Like this, this is the thing you
see in the US with a lot of with a
lot of indigenous groups. Is that like you know, like
like bye bye bye by by the time the trail
of cheers is happening, like the Cherokee or like have
(34:43):
adopted chattel slavery, like like American style plantation chattel slavery,
and that fucking sucks, right It's like it being in
contact with these settler empires like brings out the worst
in everyone, mm hmm. And there's no winning from that position, right,
like the best I don't even know if it's the
(35:06):
best case stereo, Like I guess occasionally you get like
an Algeria where you know, they kill it off people
and like the other Algeria, like you know, the settlers
in Algeria all like went back to France. But that's
not an option in Israel, right like, and we wouldn't
you wouldn't want it to be a solution either, So
(35:28):
I don't know. It's one of these I don't know.
It's one of the sort of dilemmas of how you
deal with a.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Colony is that it's harder to decomnize the set of economy, right, yes,
like it implies a removal of one people or in
other people and either of those things are in any
way desirable, Like and it's so hard to see like
a path to a peaceful coexistence now because all we
see is like the entire world ratcheting the fucking like
(35:58):
violence level up, Like, yeah, Israel carrying out genocidal violence
in Gaza is not the way we reach a way
for people to like children to grow up without fucking
fearing if the sky is going to kill them in Gaza, right,
like this will happen for generations to come because you've
(36:22):
emotionally scarred field children.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well, how would you. I think it's a very human
response if anything, Like I I don't think we have
the the right to judge how someone that has been
through that hell how they respond because it's I don't know,
we haven't lived their nightmare. It's just a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And like it's not like like there it's not like
there haven't been attempts at non violent resistance in Gaza,
because they have. And look what fucking happened like.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
That there was a big one like like three or
four years ago.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, like you know, they like the fucking crass and
stein take the why can't they all disorganized? The arch
in the water holding Kansas and come by they fucking
like I tried to do that, but like, yeah, people
people kept killing them. Like I say this every time
we talk about guards, but say again, Like when we
(37:18):
were talking to the PK guys of guys and I've
known them for a few years, Like one of them
was telling me about how they used to do sleepover
camps for kids there so the kids could learn parkour
and not have to pay for the travel and like
you know, take their time and risk to travel, so
they do sleep over camps in the summertime. And he
was explained to me like it was the most normal
(37:40):
thing in the world that the six eight year old
children would wake up at night with night terror screaming
because they thought they were being bombed, because they are
having like a flashback from being bombed, I guess, And
like that's something I recognized from from PTSD, from from
you know, other texts, but like it really fucks me
(38:03):
up that an eight year old child is like we
can't expect these people to like develop into come by
us singing like peace activists, like that they they have
taken on massive amounts of trawl where they've seen the
neighbors and families die, Like it doesn't mean that we
have to be like, oh, well, like violence is going
to happen like that we should do everything we can
(38:24):
to make a world where like people aren't killing and
dying there because it will always result in more of
the least empowered people dying. But it's something that I
think a lot of us are so far detached from
that I think is as like, you know, if you
lived a whole lot in the United States relative safety
(38:44):
and prosperity, it's it's hard for you to understand, I.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Think, yeah, And I mean like this is a like
gaza is a place where it reiins body parts, Like
that's what happens when it is really bomb goes off,
It rains body parts, and like that is a.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know, like.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
The kind of person who has to grow up with
that is just not going to be the same as
like even people who have been through a lot of
like really messed up stuff, Like it's not going to
be the same as like experiencing that.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, even if you like I have visited was to
report on them, but then I get to go home
and be safe. And sometimes that juxtaposition is hard, and
it takes me a long time to not be afraid
of the sky or a park car is going to
kill me. But I'm home and I'm safe, and once
I can adjust to that, then I can I can
get on. You know, change things like that change you,
(39:43):
but you continue with your life. But if you're never
home and you're never so or your home is never safe,
that's something I can't understand, right, That's something that I
haven't experienced, and very very few of us probably.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Have, a lot of doctors have said that all the
child I Gaza, they haven't they can't quality, they can't
be quantified of having experienced PTSD because they haven't reached
the post part yet, Like they're still they're like in
a perpetual state of PTSD because that's just how they
their entire lives have been. Most of them have never
(40:16):
known life outside of the blockade. So it's I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, and I mean I think I think that's a
good place to end of. Just you know, this is
what this is what this this is what the reality
and the eternal president of cetera colonialism is right, and
you know, this is one of these things where in
a lot of weird ways, like, like there are ways
in which we like people like if you live in
the US, if you like even the subset the UK,
(40:47):
like you are probably in a like maybe a better
position to actually stop this than anyone who lives in
palestign is. So yeah, yeah, this is but and and
the problem is if we don't right the self, the
mutually self reinforcing dynamics of Seidler colonialism are just going
to keep like carrying on and keep spiraling on. And
(41:08):
this is going to go on until everyone is dead
or everyone is gone.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, even if you can't stop it, Like I sent
the video. I'm sure you guys saw the video of
the Jewish Wis of Peace people in the Grand Central Terminal,
New York, And I said that to the palest in
your journalistic because they're like, god, this is great to see.
And if something we spoke about the interview too, how
like it makes a meaningfully difference to someone's state of
mind to see solidarity even if like you know, we
(41:38):
can get in the streets and we can say something
and maybe that will make a difference. Maybe it won't,
but like, at least if it makes someone understand that
you're kind of standing with them in a moment of darkness,
and maybe that helps them in a way.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, I think when when a whole population is not
able to share what they're going through, their journalist are
killed when the internet is out, and the one thing
they're saying is like, please don't stop talking about this.
I think that's the easiest thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, and hopefully maybe this would impel us to like
as Miya said at the start, right, this keeps fucking happening,
and like, as ethnic cleansings go, this one's got more
coverage than most in the US, And like I would
encourage you to look at what you're seeing in Gaza
and understand how inhuman and unemangeable it is. And like
maybe follow that shouldn't happen anywhere. It shouldn't happen into Gray,
(42:34):
and it shouldn't happen in Kurdistan, it shouldn't happen to
the ra hinge of people, and like, yeah, try try
and extend that. It's not to scold people, like if
you weren't in the streets in twenty seventeen, fuck you,
Like it's it's just to say that, like we've all
had a window opened, even with every fucking attempt to
shut that window, right, like but cutting off the internet
(42:57):
to Gaza, et cetera. This has been the most photographed
ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it, in probably
in human history. We're seeing more of it than we've
en't seen before, a lot of it in certain ways
or fucking footage and video games, past office, real life.
But we're still seeing it, and we're still bearing witness
to it to a limited degree. Right We're not seeing
(43:19):
it in the sense people seeing it firsthand. And I'd
encourage people to like remember this moment and the shock
and the terrible things that you felt, and like to
not forget that next time you hear about something happening, because,
like anywhere has happened, it's a tragedy. In anywhere it happens,
we should do everything we can to stop it.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool Zone Media dot com sources. Thanks for listening,
All the media. Welcome to Klappened Here, a podcast that
is once again about Palestine. Hopefully you listen to yesterday's
episode of this. One's going to be a little bit
out of sorts, but yeah, we are continuing and finishing
up a conversation about Israel and setular colonialism. So strap
(00:24):
in and enjoy the show. If you were trying to
generate in a lab a place where you could turn
a bunch of people into fascists, it would be it
would be these settlements. This has a bunch of downstream
political effects, right. One of them is that, okay, so
whose lands are you taking here?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
The answer here is it's a lot of Palestinian farmers.
And you know, once you kick farmers off their land,
they can't be farmers anymore. And this leaves them with
two choices. One slee Palestine altogether. And this is really
really hard. We talked about it on this show. It
is really really difficult to get out or your other
(01:06):
option is to become cheap labor for Israeli capitalists. And
this is another another part of the sort of self
reinforcing dynamic of these engines, right, is like, you know,
if if you're dealing with the population that doesn't have
the means to support themselves except for you know, these
these Israeli like work passes that they like, you know,
like bestow upon the benited population. Like it's it makes
(01:30):
it incredibly hard for there to be any sort of
physicist movement. And you know the other thing that David
Grea was pointing out that you know, he was, I
think like ahead of the curve on in a lot
of ways. Is I mean, this has been happening for
a long time, but the Israeli like electoral left is
just gone. Israelly Labor, which is like the like Israeli
Labor is the party that built Israel right, Like it
(01:52):
was Israeli Labor guys who like pulled together this the
entire Zionist coalition and like turned them in to the
engine that could actually win the war. In forty eight,
Labor was outperformed by fucking Handash in the most recent election.
This has happened several times. Hadash is an alliance of
the Israeli communists and like left Arab nationalists. And when
(02:14):
I say they do better, and it's not to say
that Hadash is doing well, but like you know, they're
both pulling at like four percent right, and Israeli labor
again like has ruled is ruled Israel for like a
like a very magnificant part of his history. They are
now nothing. Right, there's four percent of the vote. They
have the same amount of vote as the oldest as
the Israeli like and specifically I should mention this is
(02:35):
this is the this is the like anti occupation communists.
This is another one of the sort of dynamics of
settlerism that you know, this is sort of is universally true, right,
this is It's not just Israel where a bunch of
people who are normally leftist, a bunch of people who
like you know, fought in their own liberation struggles and
get turned into just like absolutely fanatical right wingers. There
(02:59):
are an enormous number of United Irishmen, rebels from the
Rebellion of eighteen seventy eight in Ireland who go to
the US and you know, wind up a bunch of
these people wind up in the American Army to a
bunch of these people wind up like I mean, I
guess it's technically not the Indian Wars, but like a
lot of these people wind up like fighting the Creeks
in eighteen twelve. These people could become the front line
(03:21):
of settler expansion in the US. And this this happens
again with like German and French like liberals and socialists
who flee the crushing of the eighteen forty eight revolutions.
It actually almost happened to Marx. He wound up not
going to the US. But there's a lot of settlers,
Like there's a lot of like of European socialists who
come to the US and see all of this land
and they go, oh shit, we can solve like we
(03:43):
can solve the problems of the old world. But it
is taking this land.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, having our little like k utopian socialist settlements. Was
it Owens or Jones or someone they had.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
These like, yeah, they.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Quake k utopian sort of settlement towns in someone else's land. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Well, and that's one of the ways has happened. There
there are other ways this happens too, where it's just people,
you know, it's not it's not even always utopian communities.
People a lot of and and this this is also
so okay. There are people who come over from the
eighteen forty eight revolutions who like, you know, like August
Van Willich is probably the most famous one, Like he's
he's a communist who ends up like fighting for the
(04:21):
union and then notably not fighting in the Indian Wars after.
But you know, a lot of these people they come
to the US and they're like, okay, well, so they're
like the fundamental contradiction of capitalism or whatever is that,
like you know, people like people, people are forced to
become like, as they would literally call it, like the
wage slaves of capital, right, And so these people take
(04:46):
a bunch of just incredibly bizarre stances, Like one they're
they're they're they're against the abolition of slavery because they
they're like, oh, well, if you free the slaves, these
people are going to compete with us for wage labor.
So either either they're pro slavery or they're like slavery
the like ending slavery is the thing they can only
happen with the end of capitalism, so we don't care
about it. Or and this is a very common thing
(05:08):
that this is one of them. This is i think
much closer to the Israeli dynamic. Is these people become
convinced that like the you know, The problem with Europe,
right is that you know, Europe is entirely ruled by
either feudalist or like feudal bearerans or capitalist right and
so there's no way for someone to like make like
make themselves in the world, right, there there's no way
for them to be independent like of the capitalist class.
(05:29):
But in but in the US there is because all
you have to do is, you know, instead of being
part of the like the industrial proletariat or whatever and
getting like crushed by the Buddha capital, you can just
go become a settler farmer. And this is this is
one of the defining ideologies of the US, Like Abraham
Lincoln talks about this, like the thing that makes the
US different from Europe is that like, yeah, you can
you can go be a settler, you can get your
(05:50):
own land. And this is something you can also trace
back to the foundation of Israel. Israel is created you know,
there are there are there are right wings Zionists, right,
but it's also created by liberal socialist communists and even
anarchists who fought the span a civil war who go
to Israel become Zionists, are armed by Stalin and these
(06:11):
people create like you know, these are the people who
do the knapa.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, lots of people were also, there were Jewish I
guess socialists is probably the best term for them who
would come to fight in Spain and then returned to it. Yeah,
people interested. Ranan Reign has done a really good paper
about some with people in international brigades. So not all
of them turned out to do the knakpa. To be clear, yes,
(06:37):
something some of them were. It's actually also it's actually
really sad to follow the plight of It's a slight divergence,
I guess. But Jewish people who had fled programs in
the early twentieth century grown up largely in New York
an extremely impoverished neighborhoods, fought facism in Spain, came home,
fought fatuism again in the rest of Europe after like
(07:00):
pointing at it in nineteen thirty five and going bad,
and in America going now dog were good, and then
in nineteen forty one going who could have foreseen this?
And then they come in the meantime they see Stalin
signing a pact with fascism, right, and they feel horribly
betrayed and have to have to deal with either leaving
the Communist Party or working out in their own head,
how the fuck the people who kill their friends and
(07:21):
now their friends and then they come home after the war,
they're blacklisted under McCarthy and they see the nuck but happening,
you know, like later on, and they they're disgusted, right
like they everything that, like every sort of like identity
in group that they've had, they feel has turned against
the things that they think are morally right. And they
(07:41):
have these really difficult lives despite like pursuing what most
of us would agree as in moral good throughout their lives.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, being being consistently world fucking sucks and that is.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
A yeah, Terrald will leave you behind.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah yeah, it was a fucking awful time to do that.
Yeah yeah, Okay, we should take another ad break and.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Then yeah, adverts are not consistently Marl who very unlikely.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
And we are back. So we've been talking about the
capacity of settlements to change someone's politics, right, So it's
you know, it's as these labs of consciousness that produce
certain kinds of right wing politics and mentalities and you know,
and produce right wing soldiers, right, But the settlements also
do other things. And one of those things that they do.
(08:44):
Is the settlements are a big reason, you know, if
you were invested in the peace process, like this is
a big reason why the peace process failed was that
the settlers never had any intentions of abiding by any
of the treaties that were being signed by the Israelis. Right,
And this is something that is true transhistorically, right. This
is a dynamic you see in American history too. The
US science like hundreds of treaties with like like just
(09:07):
incredible numbers and indigenous nations. And do you know how
many of those trees I end up upholding.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, that's none.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, And you know, I mean you can look at
the Supreme Court, right, and you know the Supreme Court
will uphold laws from like seventeen ninety five, right, Yeah.
The one kind of law they will not uphold is
their treaty obligations, at which in which case they will
go literally they will just go, well, we are obligated
to do this under treaty, but it is too hard,
(09:35):
so fuck you.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, they'll go previous to that and
treat site the fucking Doctrine of Discovery or the Treaty
of Cso yeah, good old Rethpeed against the liberal hero. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And so you can look at this from sort of
two perspectives, right, you can look at this from this
perspective of the state, and you can look at it
from the respective of the settlers. And you know, I mean,
and I think I think I think there's a there's
a third view that's kind of sees them both as
an extension of the same thing, which is what we're
gonna sort of come to. But you know, you can
you can look at this treaty stuff, and you can
look at the fact that you know, both the settlers
(10:09):
and the Israeli governments like sign the Oslo Accords fully
intending to do more settlements, right, And this is this
is something that that like the Palestinians are watching, right,
Like if you're a Palasidian, like you are watching these
peace accords get signed, and then you are watching the
Israelis fucking bulldozing your house. Yeah, and and this is
this is this is a thing in the US too, right.
(10:30):
It's like everyone who signs a treaty get like, like
all of the nation to sign treaties get a get
a watch as the US is like oh well, actually,
like no, we never had any intention of like fulfilling this,
like no, We're just gonna keep exterminating you and like
chasing the sort of like like shattered remnants of your
tribes like literally across the entire fucking continents. And you know,
(10:52):
so so you can look at this from the from
the perspective of the state, and you know, like like
dealing dealing with the American state, Like it is well
known by every day and every race that has ever
had to deal with them that the white man is
duplicitous in a state is built on lies, and that
is only kind of a joke. Like everyone who fucking
deals with the Americans just like what the fuck is
wrong with these people? Like do you like do people
(11:12):
like not understand what an agreement is?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Like what you know, Yeah, this is something that like
I know, if you travel abroad and you work in
places where American forces have been nine times out of ten,
someone will sit you down in a tea house or
a coffee house and unbidden just be like what the
fuck is wrong with these people? Like like why do
they treat us like that? Like we fucking did everything
(11:35):
you asked and then you fucking abandoned us or killed us,
like like yeah, like everyone, and of course Sprain does
it too. I'm not saying like America spectrum, but fuck me,
America in the last two hundred years is really setting
you precedent for just like Jane has faced bullshit.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, and you know, and and and this, and it
is particularly bad when you're dealing with when you're dealing
with settlers, because you know, one of the one of
the things about the state is that the arc of
the state policy and settler colonies always bends towards injustice
in general, and in particular the thing it always bends
towards land seizures. It seeks to expand its base of power,
it's territorial base in its economy, which leads it to
(12:12):
push as far as it possibly can towards dispossessing the
indigenous population. Now, this is also the interest of settlers,
who act as a kind of extension of the state
that goes beyond its normal capacity to do what it
wants to do. And you know, in the US, the
human manifestation of this is Andrew Jackson, who is a
man who completely illegally on multiple occasions, just like conquered
(12:33):
Florida and you know, conquered Florida specifically. And this is
one of the like a couple of things. This is
what I have. I have a very good friend who
talks about this a lot because they're they've they've been
studying this period immensely. You're probably not listening, but love you, Yeah,
but talking about this a lot, which is that Andrew
Jackson is like big part of the reason why he's
going into Florida is specifically because he he wants to
(12:56):
smash these these like indigenous like black indigenous like like
Bauruin communities there. And so Jackson, you know jackx Jackson
like is is like under orders not to invade Florida.
He invades Florida. Anyways, you know, we we we get
were there's a very similar sort of tension between like
the courts and you know, like the courts in the
(13:19):
settler state that you have with the sort of international
community in Israel now, where like the courts are like
Andrew Jackson, you cannot do the trail of tears. Andrew
Jackson is just like fuck you, Like we're doing the
trailer of tears. We're going We're going to do a genocide.
And you know, and the thing the thing about what
Jackson represents, right, is that Jackson is is the human
(13:41):
embodiment of of all of these sort of structural like
he's the human and political embodiment of all of these
structural tendencies et cetera. Colonialism. Now. And one of the
things that that's I think is interesting about this is
that there are like all of the settler states, right,
you see this in like every single one. And I'm
going to talk about the US because that's the one
that like other than that I know the best. Well,
I don't probably probainlays like the US better than Israel.
(14:04):
But there are always times when this when when this
the federal government tries to crack down on settlers, right,
this happens like repeatedly. I mean this, And this is
the thing even like like the British are like spend
a lot of time trying to stop the colonists from
like moving like from moving west. And I think that
there's a lot of people who like have come to
(14:24):
believe that if they if the British had won the
American Revolution, that they would have been able to stop
the settlers. And no, like they wouldn't have been able
to they would have been able to maybe they could
have delayed it by twenty years, but no, there was
there was no one has ever really been able to
stop these people. And you know, the IDF, like we
(14:44):
talked about this a bit earlier, right, the IDEF in
two thousand and five did pull Like when they pulled
out of Gaza, they dragged like eight thousand center settlers
with them. But again, this is this is the dynamic
to like that's incredibly familiar to anyone who studied the
history of settlers in the US, is that government at
tempts to control settler expansion inevitably fail when convented with
the the you know, the these unstoppable twin economic and
(15:06):
twin imperatives of the economic benefit to the settlers and
also the sort of speculator, the speculative value of these
of this new land, the land speculators. But then the
the other problem is the inevitable rise of the settlers
themselves as the political bloc, which in the US, the
man who is the champion of the settlers is Andrew Jackson.
(15:29):
And this is you know, and when he comes into
and when he starts taking power, when he starts getting
power in the army, you get the conquest of Florida,
and when he becomes president, you have the you have
the trailer tears and Israel. This is this is represented
by Israel's overtly genocidal finance bitsiness at Betsiel Simotrich who
represents the Religious Zionist Party, And uh, I'll give you
(15:50):
all three guesses what those guys believe and if if
your guesses are they are unhinged settler racists and like
turbo home phobes, you're you're right on the buddy.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, so he's a conspiracy theorist, like yeah, yeah, this
guy is unhinged.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
They're very open with their generalcidle.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah yeah, once.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Like there's no there's no subtlety. They're just like, let's
let's flatten what, let's flatten gus, let's kill them all,
you know what I mean. It's just like theycourage seem
like with a very Trumpian thing that's like encouraging the
hate that is there too fester.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
It's particularly like to try to diverse again. I found
the fucking like, you can't support Palestinia liberation if you're
queer dunk that we see from like Zionist neoliberals to
be one of the most frustrating a like, you can
support what the fuck you want, Like you don't need
a condescending, fucking like resist mum in a minivan to
(16:55):
tell you what you can and can't believe, and like,
b go look up some of this guy's statements, because
fucking you ain't gonna find anyone who's more genocidal towards
queer people openly than this motherfucker.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I mean, Israel is like very well known for like
pink washing and pretending they're very progressive and supportive of yeah,
of queer people, when they're really not. I mean, this
country also is not, you know what I mean, Like
it's I think I think that argument is a very
privileged elitist one.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, and like like yeah, just like haha, homophobia exists there,
it's not. It's not a win for anyone. Yeah, if
you want to get married to someone of the same
gender as you in Israel, you do it on zoom
in fucking Utah like that that Like, when you've been
outflanked to the left by Utah, you've done fucked up.
You don't get to wave your pride flag at anyone.
(17:44):
Fuck off.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
This is one of the sort of progressive veneer of
the Israelis has been you know, like fading because these
the people who are coming to power. And then Yahoo
in some ways was one of the sort of anger
to this. But like this, and this is the thing
you're seeing in India too, right, Like whatever you get
a far right guy, right, the thing that inevitably generates
is people who are even further right than they are.
(18:06):
And that that's that that's what these these settler people are.
And and the thing is, like these settler guys, you
can't cover for them, like if you if they are
on camera for longer than about thirty seconds, they start
saying stuff like just the most unhinged, like We're gonna
kill all the Palestinians. They start saying like we're gonna
(18:28):
kill every Arab, like they start talking about various and
varies basically like their their their platforms that they you
know they're and then this is this is so part
of the reason that there are there there's a coalition
of of these like of these like far right settler
parties that are now backing net and Yahu. And this
is this is how net and Yahu has been able
to stay out of prison. Is that he's been able
to back enough, he's been able to buy off enough
(18:49):
of these people that they're backing his government so he
can stay Prime minister, so they can't charge him. But
the the you know, the the concession basically for this
was that these like this guy was just basically just
given control of a bunch of state military power, like
from the army in the West Bank. It's been given
(19:09):
to him in his settler fanatics. And you know, like
especially since like the Hamas attack, like these, the government
has been handing out guns these people like candy, yes,
and they've been using it just murder Palestinians and cold
blood and you know, I mean the things people do
a lot, right, so sometimes they just kill people. The
thing they do all the time is just in the
middle of the night, like if you're if you're living
(19:29):
in the West Bank, like a bunch of mass guys
will show up, they will break into your home. They'll
beat the shit out of you, and they'll say like
if you don't leave tomorrow, will kill you. And you know,
sometimes those guys are settlers, like are just like non
like I don't know, like non military settlers, right, they're
like settler civilians or whatever. Sometimes those guys are just
like the army, and there's no fucking way to tell
(19:51):
which one like, because again it's just a bunch of
people in masks appear in the night and break into
your house and start beating the shit out of you.
And these people, these are these are the people that
increasingly the Israeli political system is being run by and
and you can't and it is in a similar way,
just the way that Andrew Jackson just like rips off
(20:12):
this mask of sort of like New England gentility that
the US had like had had under like John Adams
and uh or like John Quincy Adams and like Minroe,
well Monroe's I guess, like a like Minroe's like a
you know, like another one of these like dignified Virginia
planter guys, and like you know, those people have do
(20:32):
a lot of the same violence that that Jackson does.
But Jackson is the guy who just rips the mask
off and is just you know, this completely unhinged settler
mediac who like this is the guy you killed it
like just murdered a bunch of people in duels, like
you know, and these are the kind of people who
are who are coming to powered. Is there a right now?
And this is this is a self reinforcing dynamic because
the more power these people get, right, the more they're
(20:54):
able to, you know, just carry out genocides. And the
more genocides are able to carry out, the more of
that they're the more people that they were able to
push into these territories that they've taken, and the more
people they put in these territories, the more of the
more of these like settler fanatics there are. And this
this is one of the big things that is driving
the entire conflict.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Well, I think a good thing to remember is that
last year there was an election like going into twenty
twenty three, and uh, Israel like put into power a
bunch of these right wing people. Was it twenty twenty
three with twenty twenty two? And was in track of time.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
He came in last he came in twenty Yeah, I
think he was a minute he was point to a
minister in twenty twenty two. But okay, sorry, the years
a time election is real, Yeah, I remember when.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
My point is that, like in recent history the last
couple of years, these extreme right wing racist people are
in power all the all the places of power, all
the ministers, all the whatever the shit they're all shared.
They all share this ideology that like Arabs must die.
Basically that's like they're the point is that they are
(22:02):
superior to Arabs and then they must die, and that
this is a diionus place that is.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Theirs and you know, and what these people are doing
when they're in power, and this is the thing that
this is one of the things they were trying to
do before the sort of like the current war started,
was they were trying to annex the West Bank. This
is a very explicit goal. Now this is a very
explicit goal of the settler parties. They will kind of
they know it's pretty hard for them to like leally
(22:29):
annex it, so they will talk about like effectively annexing
it and stuff like that. They do these sort of
like subtle metaphors, but like, yeah, what they want to
do is to kick people out of what's called Area See,
which is the majority of the West Bank, and they
want to kick all the like the immediate plans, I
want to kick all the people out of Area Sea
and push them into just like increasingly tiny corners of
(22:51):
the West Bank. And presumably because again if if you
listen to all of these people talk, right, it's that
they talk about like Jews have the right to live in.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
In look, Judae and Samaria, Yeah yeah yeah, the West Bank,
Yeah yeah, they have a restricted right.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
To live there. So and the thing is like, if
you believe that right, that means you have to kick
all the Penalusinians out of the West Bank entirely. Now
the places people have stopped. Sort of before the war,
the places people had stopped was like, well, okay, they
can live in Gaza. But now they're talking about, you know,
I mean just like taking over most of like just
taking over most of Gaza and driving the Palestinians out.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, and it doesn't have to lead like Jews have
a right to live in this place, doesn't have to
lead to thus we must genocide the people who live there,
right like we it like it. This is what happens
when we get a state that understands existence as destroying
anybody who is not in agreement with this right wing
genocidal fucking Outlook like it has been possible for people
(23:50):
of different faiths to live in different places, but.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, exactly existing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, this the ideaogy that is inherent to like
a Zionist militarized state will never allow that coexistence to happen, right,
because it relies on coexistence not being possible as part
of its narrative. For like Mia said, taking dominating and
appropriating that land and gaining the value from it.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
But it's the narrative that they need to say stuff
like oh, all the gardens should just go to Egypt
or whatever. It is, like it's all part of the
plan to kind of just like expel them so they can.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like it's not
like an explicit plan that they have a whiteboard and
they're like it is you know.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
They do actually occasionally just write it out. Sometimes they
do actually explicitly write the plans.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, you can say on ex dot com from time
to time. But it's inherent, as Mia said like several times,
to state and to a capitalist state that is a
settler colony, right, Like it's inevitable. It happened here, it's
happening there, It's happened all over the world. Like, it's
not possible to construct a capitalist state on someone else's
land and someone else's bodies. It doesn't do this.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, and I mean and this this is this is
also one thing I wanted to emphasize too, is that
all of the shit that's happening in Palestine happened here, right.
I mean, I guess like we, like the US, didn't
have the kind of surveillance technology in like the the
eighteen teens, right that the Israelis have now. But you know,
like we we did all this shit too, right, like
(25:24):
this is this is all of the land that we
live on. That's that's where that shit came from. There's
there's this great uh. I really love Daniel Connon the
Painted Bird. It has this great line in one of
his songs that goes because he's the one who did
the stealing and named you as the heir whose filthiness
provided you the privileges you bear. And this is this
(25:46):
thing in the US, right, like in Israel. You know,
if you're a settler on the border, right, there's no
there's no escape from what you did to take this place.
Right like you are you are looking down on the
people who you've like whose houses you've taken. Right in
the US, we have this sort of luxury of like, wow,
this happened a long time ago, Like we don't have
(26:06):
to sort of we don't have to see the consequences.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Of it, but we still do it right like we
didn't just like we're doing it at Oak Flat for
instance right now. Or yeah, look at how Trump fucking
did indigenous people during COVID, Like it's an ongoing process.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah right, yeah, it's it's so much easier for Americans
to pretend that it's not happening, and you know, like no,
like it turns out in fact like this, this, this,
and this is where the sort of sub of colonialism
of structure not an event stuff comes from. And it
applies to both Israel and the US because guess what.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Israel literally took notes for what the US did and
just did it, you know what I mean, Like it's
just the same thing in the end, Like we're the
bad guys, like we've always been the bad guys.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Are the bad guys? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
You know, I'm Chinese, right, And this is one of
the things that has informed a lot of my sort
of perspective on Palestine, because all of the things that
are happening to Palestine is shit that was done to
us by the Japanese Empire, right, And we fought a
war to stop them, and that war was hideous. That war,
(27:33):
the war in China sees some of the darkest moments
in human history. And there's this tendency among I mean,
you know, as a tendency among both both the communists
and the nationalists want to sort of sanitize it, right,
They want to turn it into this sort of glorious
war for liberation, and like, yeah, like there are moments
of like, you know, glorious anti imperialist struggle, but that
(27:54):
war mostly was just a horror. And it's a horror
not just because of the atrocities committed by the Japanese right.
The Chinese side in that war also does things that
are unforgivable. And I'm not even talking about Hiroshima and
Nagasaki here because you know, like we as in like
Chinese people, like we didn't do that right, like you
(28:17):
know Mao, like on the one hit. It is true
that when Mao found out about the nuclear eruptions, his
reaction was, way, you had a third bomb and he
didn't drop it on Tokyo. But like, you know, we
didn't do that, right, Like that was that was the
Americans that wasn't like that wasn't like us in China.
But you know, the things that I'm talking about that
(28:37):
the Chinese side of that war did that were just unforgivable,
you know. I mean, I think the best example of
it is Shangkhai Shek blew up a dam on the
Yellow River, and his goal was he was trying to
you know, he was trying to flood like several provinces
to cut off the Japanese army and to like slow
down their troop movements, right, and he slows down the
(28:58):
troop movements, and he does it by killing four This
is this is this is this is the low end
estimates is that he killed four hundred thousand people. That
is a an amount of death that is unimaginable. He
killed like in a single act, he killed four hundred
(29:20):
thousand people. It is two Hiroshima and Nagasaki's And that's
that's the low end estimate. Right, People, people, people fighting
against Japan, people fighting against colonialism, did unforgivable crimes. And
you know, and the people of of China like never forget,
like to this day, like in the provinces where like
where this shit happened, like Chang Kai Shek is fucking despised,
(29:43):
and you know, and like when when like when the
Allies won the war and when China drove out the Japanese, right, like,
the next thing they did was they drove out Shan
Kai Shack because he was you know, because because he
had done things in that war that were so terrible
that people willing to be like fuck it, Like Mao
didn't fucking blow up a dam and kill four hundred
(30:05):
thousand of US, right, you know, and so like, and
this is the thing about colonial resistance is that it
is the things that people do are unforgivable. Also that
that word that Japan fought in China they killed twenty
million of US twenty million. And this is one of
(30:25):
these things, right where like colonialism makes monsters of us.
All suffering does not make you knowable, just makes you suffer.
And so you know, again like the are like China's
anti colonial freedom fighters right like fucking killed killed numbers
of like Chinese people that are it's just unimaginable. And
then you know, these same freedom fighters who fought the
(30:46):
good fighting against Japan, you know, within twenty years they're
bulldozing Moss and shing John and murdering communists in Tibet, right,
and they've built two, you know, after successfully repelling Japan's
attempt to turn China into a settler state, they have
made two of their own. And you know, so like
there's there's no I think the point that I'm trying
to make here is that, you know, like anti colonial
(31:10):
resistance is not this sort of like it doesn't look pretty.
It's a fucking horror most of the time. But you also,
you know, when when you're looking into like when you're
looking at these wars, you have to look at the
direction in which colonization is moving. And that's you know,
that's the thing that is crystal clear in Palestine, right,
(31:32):
is you can just look at like which in which
direction is is colonization moving?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Like who is taking whose houses?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Who is who is forcing a million people from what
population to flee their homes? Who is you know, who
has been steel he has been seizing people's land. And
I think it clears up. I don't know, clears up
isn't the right word, but specifically the fact that this
is that this is active colonization, that this is this
is this the center of colonial state waging a war
(32:02):
against you know, people like people who are fighting against colonization.
That is the sort of that that that is the
the the underlying current of everything that happens. And and
you know, like I don't know, like people people in
anti colonial wars do things that are unforgivable and they
(32:25):
get you know, and like often like their own people
will eventually come for them one day. And also I don't.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Know, I've no one has to agree with me, It's fine,
But I personally really dislike when it's called a war
what's happening in Palestine because I just think it's the
clearest case of genocide I've ever seen. And like I
don't care how it started or whatever, I feel like
at this point in time, it's a genocide. Like if
(32:54):
Palestine's out of country, Palestine does not have an army,
they can't no one can leave Gaza.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I think that is the current state of what the
violence is going on over there.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And so yeah, just like particular, like I think I
think you're like, I think you're right about that. And
that's the thing that that's the thing that's different than
like the stuff that was happening in China was like
at least we sort of had like at least we
had a state, right, and we had armies, and our
armies got fucking stopped. But you know, we had like
we we we had actual weapons.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, I must have some now, But I think you're
to your greater point. Yeah, I think, like, well, yeah,
it sounds very similar to like have you read Challenges
Introduction to the Rest of the Earth, Yeah, like where
he talks about violence and the state talking in the
language of violence and people responding in the language in
which they're spoken to. I think I'm paraphrasing that relatively accurately.
(33:54):
It doesn't have to be like the violence has to
be good for it to be like an inevitable consequence
of violent colonialism, right that, like it sparks violent decolonization movements,
and it doesn't imply like a moral like goodness to
the individual acts. It's just an inevitable consequence of people
(34:16):
fighting against colonalism in the only way that that colonialism
kind of leaves for them, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
And I think I think another part of this too
is that like just being in contact with colonial powers
makes everyone worse. Like this, this is the thing you
see in the US with a lot of with a
lot of indigenous groups. Is that like you know, like
like bye bye bye by by the time the trail
of cheers is happening, like the Cherokee or like have
(34:43):
adopted chattel slavery, like like American style plantation chattel slavery,
and that fucking sucks, right It's like it being in
contact with these settler empires like brings out the worst
in everyone, mm hmm. And there's no winning from that position, right,
like the best I don't even know if it's the
(35:06):
best case stereo, Like I guess occasionally you get like
an Algeria where you know, they kill it off people
and like the other Algeria, like you know, the settlers
in Algeria all like went back to France. But that's
not an option in Israel, right like, and we wouldn't
you wouldn't want it to be a solution either, So
(35:28):
I don't know. It's one of these I don't know.
It's one of the sort of dilemmas of how you
deal with a.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Colony is that it's harder to decomnize the set of economy, right, yes,
like it implies a removal of one people or in
other people and either of those things are in any
way desirable, Like and it's so hard to see like
a path to a peaceful coexistence now because all we
see is like the entire world ratcheting the fucking like
(35:58):
violence level up, Like, yeah, Israel carrying out genocidal violence
in Gaza is not the way we reach a way
for people to like children to grow up without fucking
fearing if the sky is going to kill them in Gaza, right,
like this will happen for generations to come because you've
(36:22):
emotionally scarred field children.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well, how would you. I think it's a very human
response if anything, Like I I don't think we have
the the right to judge how someone that has been
through that hell how they respond because it's I don't know,
we haven't lived their nightmare. It's just a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
And like it's not like like there it's not like
there haven't been attempts at non violent resistance in Gaza,
because they have. And look what fucking happened like.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
That there was a big one like like three or
four years ago.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, like you know, they like the fucking crass and
stein take the why can't they all disorganized? The arch
in the water holding Kansas and come by they fucking
like I tried to do that, but like, yeah, people
people kept killing them. Like I say this every time
we talk about guards, but say again, Like when we
(37:18):
were talking to the PK guys of guys and I've
known them for a few years, Like one of them
was telling me about how they used to do sleepover
camps for kids there so the kids could learn parkour
and not have to pay for the travel and like
you know, take their time and risk to travel, so
they do sleep over camps in the summertime. And he
was explained to me like it was the most normal
(37:40):
thing in the world that the six eight year old
children would wake up at night with night terror screaming
because they thought they were being bombed, because they are
having like a flashback from being bombed, I guess, And
like that's something I recognized from from PTSD, from from
you know, other texts, but like it really fucks me
(38:03):
up that an eight year old child is like we
can't expect these people to like develop into come by
us singing like peace activists, like that they they have
taken on massive amounts of trawl where they've seen the
neighbors and families die, Like it doesn't mean that we
have to be like, oh, well, like violence is going
to happen like that we should do everything we can
(38:24):
to make a world where like people aren't killing and
dying there because it will always result in more of
the least empowered people dying. But it's something that I
think a lot of us are so far detached from
that I think is as like, you know, if you
lived a whole lot in the United States relative safety
(38:44):
and prosperity, it's it's hard for you to understand, I.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Think, yeah, And I mean like this is a like
gaza is a place where it reiins body parts, Like
that's what happens when it is really bomb goes off,
It rains body parts, and like that is a.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know, like.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
The kind of person who has to grow up with
that is just not going to be the same as
like even people who have been through a lot of
like really messed up stuff, Like it's not going to
be the same as like experiencing that.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, even if you like I have visited was to
report on them, but then I get to go home
and be safe. And sometimes that juxtaposition is hard, and
it takes me a long time to not be afraid
of the sky or a park car is going to
kill me. But I'm home and I'm safe, and once
I can adjust to that, then I can I can
get on. You know, change things like that change you,
(39:43):
but you continue with your life. But if you're never
home and you're never so or your home is never safe,
that's something I can't understand, right, That's something that I
haven't experienced, and very very few of us probably.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Have, a lot of doctors have said that all the
child I Gaza, they haven't they can't quality, they can't
be quantified of having experienced PTSD because they haven't reached
the post part yet, Like they're still they're like in
a perpetual state of PTSD because that's just how they
their entire lives have been. Most of them have never
(40:16):
known life outside of the blockade. So it's I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, and I mean I think I think that's a
good place to end of. Just you know, this is
what this is what this this is what the reality
and the eternal president of cetera colonialism is right, and
you know, this is one of these things where in
a lot of weird ways, like, like there are ways
in which we like people like if you live in
the US, if you like even the subset the UK,
(40:47):
like you are probably in a like maybe a better
position to actually stop this than anyone who lives in
palestign is. So yeah, yeah, this is but and and
the problem is if we don't right the self, the
mutually self reinforcing dynamics of Seidler colonialism are just going
to keep like carrying on and keep spiraling on. And
(41:08):
this is going to go on until everyone is dead
or everyone is gone.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, even if you can't stop it, Like I sent
the video. I'm sure you guys saw the video of
the Jewish Wis of Peace people in the Grand Central Terminal,
New York, And I said that to the palest in
your journalistic because they're like, god, this is great to see.
And if something we spoke about the interview too, how
like it makes a meaningfully difference to someone's state of
mind to see solidarity even if like you know, we
(41:38):
can get in the streets and we can say something
and maybe that will make a difference. Maybe it won't,
but like, at least if it makes someone understand that
you're kind of standing with them in a moment of darkness,
and maybe that helps them in a way.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, I think when when a whole population is not
able to share what they're going through, their journalist are
killed when the internet is out, and the one thing
they're saying is like, please don't stop talking about this.
I think that's the easiest thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, and hopefully maybe this would impel us to like
as Miya said at the start, right, this keeps fucking happening,
and like, as ethnic cleansings go, this one's got more
coverage than most in the US, And like I would
encourage you to look at what you're seeing in Gaza
and understand how inhuman and unemangeable it is. And like
maybe follow that shouldn't happen anywhere. It shouldn't happen into Gray,
(42:34):
and it shouldn't happen in Kurdistan, it shouldn't happen to
the ra hinge of people, and like, yeah, try try
and extend that. It's not to scold people, like if
you weren't in the streets in twenty seventeen, fuck you,
Like it's it's just to say that, like we've all
had a window opened, even with every fucking attempt to
shut that window, right, like but cutting off the internet
(42:57):
to Gaza, et cetera. This has been the most photographed
ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it, in probably
in human history. We're seeing more of it than we've
en't seen before, a lot of it in certain ways
or fucking footage and video games, past office, real life.
But we're still seeing it, and we're still bearing witness
to it to a limited degree. Right We're not seeing
(43:19):
it in the sense people seeing it firsthand. And I'd
encourage people to like remember this moment and the shock
and the terrible things that you felt, and like to
not forget that next time you hear about something happening, because,
like anywhere has happened, it's a tragedy. In anywhere it happens,
we should do everything we can to stop it.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool Zone Media dot com sources. Thanks for listening,
It Could Happen Here News
Host
Robert Evans
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