May 17, 2022 • 30 mins
We talk to Diana and Odile from The Brigid Alliance and the Midwest Access Fund about the impact of existing and new restrictions on abortion and what we can do moving forward to fight for abortion access.
The Brigid Alliance: www.brigidalliance.org
Midwest Access Coalition: www.midwestaccesscoalition.org
The Apiary list of practical support organizations/abortion funds in the country:
https://www.apiarycollective.org/pso-list
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, everybody, welcome to It could happen here, and it
continues to happen here. UM. I'm Robert Evans. This is
a podcast about things falling apart and what to do
after that happens. And we are all currently dealing with
the falling apart of several decades of progress on reproductive justice. UM.
(00:25):
The Supreme Court leaking that UM they are coming for
Roe v. Wade and UM. Yeah. Today I'm here with
Christopher Wong and Sharine Lawnie Unice UM and my producers Sophie.
We have two guests from the bridget Alliance in the
Midwest Access Coalition. We're going to talk more about what
they do in a second. Broadly speaking, both seek to
(00:46):
UM attach people who are looking for reproductive healthcare and
abortion access UM but cannot get it easily in their area,
UM with clinics and the things that they need in
order to get to the clinics and glue in transit
and you know, time and hotels whatnot, UM, in order
to make it easier to get access to that kind
of healthcare in places like the Midwest, where folks have
(01:09):
been spending decades making it much more difficult even prior
to this recent ruling to get that kind of healthcare.
So I'm gonna let our guests introduce themselves. UM, you've
got the floor. Well, Hi, I am O'Dell Shelley. I
am the executive director at Deep Bridget Alliance, and I'm
gonna introduce my counterpart here. I'm Diana Parker, trusta from
(01:35):
the executive director of the Midwest Access Coalition. And yeah,
so y'all have been in some ways kind of dealing
with elements of the post row world because obviously, like
you know, we're all focused on this Supreme Court decision
that's in the pipeline, but um, anti choice activists have
been working very hard to essentially create a post row
(02:00):
world in chunks of the United States prior to this point.
So you all have been kind of dealing with the
reality that a larger number of people are going to
be living under for a while, right. Yeah. Yeah, Missouri
has been able to effectively bad abortion state for years now.
I think, Uh, there's maybe a handful of abortions that
(02:21):
the one clinic there are able to do because of
all of the trap laws, um, which is the targeted
restrictions for abortion providers. Uh, and the waiting period, so
people have to go to another state Kansas, Iowa or
Illinois Missouri. Um, and we've been helping those books for years,
(02:44):
and UM, I'm gonna guess this. I mean, just because
you've been living in with this for a while, I'm
gonna guess the announcement last week did not come as
a total surprise. The timing of it certainly did, which
for Diana and I came at the heels of a
conference that we were at thankfully together, which is was
(03:08):
kind of just pure luck for us so we could
actually commiserate together. But no, ultimately this is not a
huge surprise. I mean, I think we're all still waiting
to see what actually happens in June. That the writing
has been on the wall for months, in years, if
not longer. And you know, as you were just pointing
(03:28):
it out, essentially, for organizations like the Bridget Alliance and
the Midwest Exist Coalition, we have been existing already because
the protections of ROW are insufficient to actually secure abortion
access for all in this country. So this has been
our lived experience, and preparing for this moment has um
(03:49):
It has been a long time coming, and I'm sure
there have been a number of conversations that have been
going on about what to do and how to prepare
for this right because the primary change is going to be,
at least initially until some they make some sort of
federal push that states that have some sort of functional
access to abortion are going to be flooded with an
(04:11):
even higher number of people in need of care. Um,
could you kind of walk us through what sort of
steps have been taken to in order to kind of
brace for that impact, so to speak. Yeah, So I
think a couple of things. And and the first to
sort of pull back on that for a second is
to say that part of preparing for what's to come
(04:32):
has been our orgs in the community that we exist in.
This this incredible expansive landscape of different types of organizations
that have existed for decades to secure abortion access where
the laws were insufficient, where um, people were faced with
barriers like income in equity and geographic inequity and the
(04:54):
unavailability of providers. UM. This network, though, has a existed
largely unseen, and so a lot of preparing for what
is to come is really embracing our existence, feeling affirmed
in that and in our value, not shying away from
the expertise within this community, which is held both by
(05:16):
volunteers as well as staff UM and so I think
a lot of the last couple of years has been
focusing on really trying to harness that expertise and that
knowledge and compassion and the fact that many of the
people who are leading a lot of the efforts in
the reproductive justice movement are people who have had abortions themselves,
which is a enormous um and valuable part of how
(05:40):
this movement moves and hopefully will continue to center the
people most impacted by the fall of row UM. I think,
more specifically for Bridget and or its like MAC preparation
means deepening our relationships with the clinics that we work with.
They are critical, of course, and their sanity is critical
(06:00):
to abortion access. Is making sure that we have the
sufficient funding to continue to staff train that volunteers systematically
and mindfully UM and ideally do so in a sustainable
way so that we're not all overwhelming ourselves with the
sudden surge of need and the sudden surge of impact UM.
(06:20):
And then you know, for Diana and I even personally,
it means deepening the relationships that us practical support organizations
have with one another, Because no one organization is going
to be able to help every single abortion seeker who
will need to travel. It will rely upon really strong
and transparent collaboration. So those are some of the things
(06:41):
that we've been focusing on. One of the things that
strikes me as a problem that's going to be, if
not immediate and pretty imminent for y'all, is we've are
you seen threats and promises from legislators in some states
(07:03):
to attempt to criminalize leaving a state where abortion is
illegal in order to get access to healthcare? How what?
What kind of preparation is even possible for that sort
of world, because it does seem like we're staring down
the barrel of that. Yeah, I think the only preparation
we can have right now is to expect that the
(07:25):
corners will allow them to do that. Um. They're very
creative now that they've seen a go into effect and
hold on as the law of the land, even though
it's in direct violation of federal law. UM scoede us.
The highest code up court of our country, uh is
the one that has been allowing that to happen. And
(07:48):
so that sends a huge message to all these UH
force birth legislators that you know, bring us your worst
take on the law. We will in a way to
let you keep it. UM. We're we're working with you
on this and UM you just need to get bolder
(08:09):
and bolder and see what you can get away with. UH.
So we can't really predict how they're going to do that,
although Missouri has indicated that they're going to consider an
I guessing as it's fertilized a resident and UM a
resident of the state, that they have, you know, responsibility
for protecting UM, completely ignoring the fact that it's growing
(08:34):
inside a complete human being that has rights. UM. But
that's that's the latest that I've heard of them figuring
out how to restrict someone's someone's travel UM. But it
would require a significant shift in how we understand constitutional
law and UM the basis for our legal system, and
(09:00):
that that seems like something that I don't know, like
really genuinely seems to be on the table in this moment.
I maybe we have I think it's Louisiana who's trying
to like part part part of their bill is that
they like literally it says that they can disobey the
federal government, which we had a civil war about that,
we had we had a nullification crisis about that. We like, so, yeah,
(09:24):
I guess I'm wondering what your impression is on like
how far this can go? Like, do do we get
to the point where states can just like tell the
federal government no? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what the
architect of the st law essentially told the part is
that they don't have jurisdiction and all the laws that
(09:47):
they have passed in the hundreds are actually um enforceable,
and the federal government has no authority to stop them,
and uh, they are the fifth district ants. Tootis has
indicated that maybe you are right, maybe that is the
correct way to interpret our constitution. UM. So I feel
(10:09):
like all of that, all of our decades centuries of
um figuring out what the law means for this country
is just up in the air, and we may be
looking at laws now that are just more and more
buzz are um, as long as you know the GOP
(10:34):
and the right have control over so many bodies of
our governments. You it really is, I can't even fathom.
I don't think we can predict what's going to come honestly, Um,
I mean, I'm also wondering, to put it crudely, will
(10:56):
legislators in states that are currently committing because we have
seen an umber states California kind of leading the pack
committing to maintain um access to to to abortion and
other forms of reproductive health care that are being threatened
right now? Do do you like, do you feel like
you have a good chance that they are going to
(11:17):
back you, especially in the event of, you know, laws
that would potentially open people like you up to criminal
charges just for trying to support people in getting you know,
reproductive health care outside of their state. Is your question?
Do you do we think that elected officials that are
pro choice are going to back us? Yeah? Yeah, yeah?
Do you like it's entirely possible that we're going to
(11:38):
see some sort of federal law that not just criminalizes
abortion or even like prior to that criminalizes aiding people
in seeking abortion outside of states that have banned it, right,
Like that's on the table. How does that change the landscape?
Where do you suspect that, like in kind of a
similar way to have some of these some of the
(11:58):
legislators and states trying to ban abortion said like we're
just going to ignore federal law if that contradicts our
state law. Do you think that, um? Do you think
that pro choice legislators in states you know, like California
are going to be willing to go to the mat
and protect you? Or are are we? I mean, yeah,
I guess I I know this is kind of an unknown,
but I'm kind of these must be conversations that y'all
(12:19):
are having, right, I mean, I really freaking hope that
they are. And if they're listening, please please prepare to
do so. And it's really heartening to see states like
California and Oregon, in Illinois and New York and Connecticut
for instance, UM, come up with really clear language around
(12:42):
their support of not just choice, which was the language
of the past, but abortion and are saying that and
are starting to invest in things like abortion funding and
trouble to themselves actually, you know, put forth their own
efforts to contribute to the people will need to travel
into their states. UM. And you know, Diana was just
(13:05):
speaking the other day with a bunch of electing officials
in Chicago, So I think I think this is also
why what I was talking about earlier in terms of
orgs like ours, coming coming into the light is so important,
is that we were going to need those relationships with
those politicians. We're gonna need them to know us and
see us and understand that we're a critical part of
how we're going to serve their constituents and that, yeah,
(13:28):
we're going to need them to back us. Will they
I can't say definitively, but I really freaking hope so yeah, yeah,
and hopefully those you know, as deal said just now,
I was UM in a press conference yesterday the city
the Mayor's office announced this fund to support abortion procedure
funding and practical support. And my hope is with UM
(13:51):
municipalities will talk to each other and give each other
the models for doing UH this protective, preemptive UH support
for people traveling to our states for abortion here and
UM yeah, I'm in with talks with the a c
l U in Illinois to talk about potential UM bills
(14:13):
that are floating around to even further protect UH pub
in this state. Specifically, I know of one that wants
to explicitly protect providers from being extradited or sued or
shut down by prosecutors in other states that want to
claim that they have to jurisdiction because like, like I said,
(14:35):
they figured out a way to give residency status to
fertilized eggs or something. You know, it's just completely fun
that That's kind of what we're staring at, right Like
that that's that's the thing that you have to be
concerned with, is like out of state law enforcement. I
don't know, like and and that's the thing. No one
knows what it's going to look like, right Like, we
(14:55):
know that they have a vested kind of interest already
and do being parts of this through bounties, which is
kind of like the thing that I'm worried about. Are
we going to see like out of state law enforcement
bounty hunting people trying to folks up with reproductive healthcare?
And I guess that's just kind of an unknown at
this point, but it's right, and it really depends on
like our local protected state juristics, Like how far are
(15:19):
they going to go to protect us from those entities
that are going to try to come in for us?
Um Just just today, one of our staff members tweeted
about practical support funds and who to support throughout the
country that provides the sort of travel logistics for people
(15:39):
and they got followed by a sheriff department in Missouri. Yeah,
so there are already you know, targeting and surveilling uh,
abortion seekers and the people who support them. Yeah, and
of course I'm sure that there's a degree to which
some of these folks are working with um, shall we say,
(16:00):
non state actors in order to like, I know they've
been prepping with that for a while as well. Um,
what is I mean one of the things that I
know because I've been having some conversations with friends of
mine who are and like I guess we could say
adjacently adjacent organizations to to where y'all work and who
(16:20):
are at in some cases the convention you were at,
who are concerned that as providing people with reproductive healthcare
becomes illegal. Um, there's going to be a lot of
fair weather friends kind of revealed and I I am interested, like,
is this a thing that in order to be engaged
in providing people with reproductive health care you have to
(16:42):
be willing to engage in illegalism at this point? Like,
is that really where we are? That's really interesting question. Yeah.
As as a member, like as I go and threes, uh,
you know, looked at our state governments are federal governments.
(17:04):
We can't engage in anything that's legal. Um. But people
have forever on their own dumb things that the state
has considered illegal in order to have bodily autonomy. UM.
There are people who can't afford it. There are people
who are just so far from the nearest clinic that
they can't even fathom how to make that trip. Uh.
(17:26):
They're undocumented folks. Uh. There are people near the borders
that can't even physically move past a border checkpoint because
they're just trapped there and can't get care um in
other parts of their state where it's available. UM. So
there that that will be a thing. I think that
(17:48):
is going to increase, because the need will not decrease. UM.
And I do not like my organization and we can't
really see anything about that. But you know, personally, I'm like,
you do whatever it takes to live your life and thrive. UM.
(18:09):
Laws are made up especially now. Yeah, that is nice
to hear because I, you know, I try to keep
abreast of the sides of this fight that are you know,
working through five O one sees and and the like
and engaging in electoralism. The people who are you know,
(18:30):
doing stuff like trying to figure out ways to um
provide access to like miso pills and whatnot to people, UM,
because that's just where we are. We've talked about the
(18:50):
degree to which you guys have already been living in
some people's future, you know, just because of the specific
nature of what your organizations have been doing, UM, and
the degree to which you know you knew some of
this is coming. What has surprised you outside of just
like the fact that it got leaked ahead of time
about kind of what we've seen in the last weekend
change mm hmmm mm hmm. I think I am. I'm
(19:19):
not so much surprised by the response from folks. UM.
I'm a little frustrated that it took this moment for
people to realize what has been happening in this country
for the past decade, few decades. Honestly, this is this
(19:39):
is a very long game, uh for the antis. But
ever since Trump was put into office and started just
flooding the federal courts with very young, very anti conservative
judges UM and SPA was a huge flag. UM. But
(20:00):
I think I was surprised that there was a maths
amount of people that we're going to step up when
the decision came out. Um, it's it gives me hope.
I hope it's sustained for the many many years we're
going to need uh practical support and abortion funds while
(20:23):
we fight for legal rights. Um. Yeah, so I guess
the surprise is a mixed it's a bad for me. Yeah,
I was gonna say something similar that I think I've
been pleasantly surprised at how well educated and informed a
(20:46):
lot of our supporters and newer supporters are about as
Diana mentioned, the existence of abortion funds and practical support organizations.
That practical support is even being talked about is huge.
We couldn't get this conversation and into the media a
couple of years ago. So like, this is really remarkable
and important. But what's more, there seems to be also
(21:08):
like a understanding of why we have to exist. Um,
it doesn't seem to be shocking people quite as much
of but there certainly are still tons of people who
are shocked by this. But for many, they're not shocked
that for some abortion has simply been inaccessible and what
those reasons are. Um, and you know that's things obviously
(21:29):
to a lot of the really hard, important conversations that
have been had over the last couple of years about
racial justice. And I think that, you know, it's a
silver lining for sure, but I'm I'm grateful to find
that the depth of the conversations is there now and
hopefully that means that the commitment is going to be
sustained in long term, because this is a little bit
(21:50):
of deja vu for us in the sense that we've
had little moments like these ever since our organizations existed. Um,
when a single band goes into place or threatened to
go into place, this like swell occurs using my hands
a lot, which obviously can't see if you're listening to
me right now, So I'm gonna put my hands down, um,
(22:11):
and you know, and that and that brings out a
lot of really incredible donors and a lot of really
incredible offers for volunteers, and and then they tend to
go away. Um. And especially when when Biden was you know, elected,
and there was definitely this like moment where everyone was like, Okay,
we're cool, right, which this guy hasn't said the word abortion,
but we're still fine. And we're not We're like the
(22:34):
furthest from fine. So yeah, again, like pleasantly surprised that
people seem to have, um a sense of why we're here. Yeah,
I just wanted to bring up the website. Did Biden
say abortion yet or it just like it's so unfortunately
(22:58):
hilarious to me, um, but I've is really glad it exists. Um.
And then they someone reached out to the someone in
the Biden administration to make a comment on this when
the when the the draft was leaked, and they said, well,
we tweeted it or like whatever it's and it's like
it's he said it once in a tweet and like
(23:19):
once in like a statement or something. So I just
think it's there, you go. I don't know what more
we want, but like, I just think it's important to
what you were saying earlier. Um, how legislators in Oregon
or California, like it's so important they're saying the word abortion,
not just pro choice, because I think a lot of
people are a lot of people are scared about that
word for some reason, or it sounds scary to them
(23:39):
if they're not that educated about what pro choice means
or what abortion means. So I think I have a
little bit more hope seeing more people even saying that word, UM,
because it yeah, yeah, I think the statistics is something
like the antis have been using the word abortion three
(24:00):
times as much as we have, and that is why
it's so stigmatized and difficult to talk about. And I
definitely try to encourage people to say the word abortion,
to talk about abortion with everyone they know. Uh, just
so we can stop hiding. I guess kind of the
last thing I'd like to ask, and we can we
can cut this bit if this winds up not being
(24:21):
something you want to get into. But have you have
you felt an additional need to worry about given how
public you are in your advocacy personal protection UM, as
things kind of have heated up, you know, we were
we were recently at the conference that you mentioned before, UM,
(24:41):
and it definitely with all of my colleagues in one place,
it definitely made me feel a little vulnerable for myself
and them. But honestly, the people who are targeted or
the providers by far UM, I'm not worried about my
physical safety. UM. I'm worried about the physical safety over
(25:03):
of our providers and the fact that our government is
responding to peaceful protesters outside kavanas Um House and talking
and and asked for I think Susan Collins on the
sidewalk outside her residents results in legislation being media immediately,
(25:28):
they all somehow got together for once in their lives
to do something about the terrorists who chalked sidewalks by
legislators home. Um uh is it's it's really demoralizing. Um,
because we have our providers have seen violence and um yeah,
(25:54):
they've seen violence every day, murders, ASCID attacks, bombings. Um. Yeah,
Chris Sharene, do you have anything else you wanted to
get into. Yeah, I wanted to ask one thing, so,
you know, Okay, seeing this sort of increasing fectlessness or
politicians even by their standards, and you know, their response
(26:16):
to this being let's give more power to the U. S. Marshals,
which is maybe great, the worst idea I've ever seen.
But what can just people do about this in it?
You know, I mean we've talked about like giving to
abortion funds, but like what, how how can people get
involved and how can people get involved in a way
that's sustainable of the long term. Yeah, I mean, definitely
(26:38):
give two abortion funds, give to practical support organizations like
the Midwest Access Coalition and the bridget Alliance. UM. If
you are interested in volunteering, reach out to your local organization. UM.
There are a couple of really great resources for lists
of those organizations and where they are, like the National
Network of Abortion Funds. UM. And you do bear with
(27:02):
all of us because we are handling a flurry of
emails and that's incredible, But we won't be able to
plug you in immediately. UM. It might even take a
little bit of time. But then I think that you know,
voting is still critical, especially in local UM, in any
local elections, especially if we're thinking about how we're going
(27:23):
to prevent the possible criminalization of abortion seekers and of
abortion providers. We need to make sure that we've got
the judges in good local elected officials at the very least,
So do not stop doing that. UM. Yeah, I think
those would be the things that I would say, focus
on and the thing that I always say, which is
just like talk about it. Like I am totally that
(27:46):
person who is like the downer at the dinner party
talking about abortion, But be that person and go and
talk about it and share why it's important and how
it's not just about abortion and it's not just about
women it's at families, it's about parents, it's about queer folks,
it's it's about immigrants, it's about miners. Um, You've got
(28:08):
a lot to be worried about right now, So don't
stop talking, listening, reading, consuming whatever you can. Yeah, And
just to jump off that, if you are in a
safe state, you're not going You're not going to be
safe forever. Uh, They're gonna come after us. They're going
to come after the legislators, the supreme courts of those states.
(28:30):
They're usually a thin margin, um as far as conservative
versus progressive judges on state supreme courts. So find out
who your local org is that is leading that voter
turnout to make sure that people are voting for the
right judges go in. Um. And also I wanna lift
(28:53):
up escorts. Escorts are on the ground many days of
the week. They will put you to work and they're
going to be needed more and more. UM. Yeah, I
think that's that's all very important and a good note
to end on. Does anyone else have anything else or
are we um? Should we should? We? Let y'all get
back to your very important work. UM, And thank you
(29:14):
again for for making the time for us absolutely thank
you for covering us and talking about it. Yeah, happy
to do so we'll be we'll be continuing to to
do that. And I hope you all. Um, um, jeez,
I don't even know what to say. Like, I hope you.
(29:35):
I hope you function up for the people who are
sucking shut up, you know. But I hope the support
doesn't like dissipate as like the trend goes away or whatever.
You know. I think that's so disheartening if that happens.
And like, hopefully the flood of emails but not necessarily
remains a flood for you. But like, I hope that
(29:56):
people are actually serious about doing something. And um, I
think this time they might be just because I keep
being surprised about little things, so I'm not gonna expect
anything anymore. Maybe people were surprising, But I really appreciate
the work you do. Um, So thanks for coming out
to talk to us. Thank you, Thank for us. It
(30:23):
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Hey, everybody, welcome to It could happen here, and it
continues to happen here. UM. I'm Robert Evans. This is
a podcast about things falling apart and what to do
after that happens. And we are all currently dealing with
the falling apart of several decades of progress on reproductive justice. UM.
(00:25):
The Supreme Court leaking that UM they are coming for
Roe v. Wade and UM. Yeah. Today I'm here with
Christopher Wong and Sharine Lawnie Unice UM and my producers Sophie.
We have two guests from the bridget Alliance in the
Midwest Access Coalition. We're going to talk more about what
they do in a second. Broadly speaking, both seek to
(00:46):
UM attach people who are looking for reproductive healthcare and
abortion access UM but cannot get it easily in their area,
UM with clinics and the things that they need in
order to get to the clinics and glue in transit
and you know, time and hotels whatnot, UM, in order
to make it easier to get access to that kind
of healthcare in places like the Midwest, where folks have
(01:09):
been spending decades making it much more difficult even prior
to this recent ruling to get that kind of healthcare.
So I'm gonna let our guests introduce themselves. UM, you've
got the floor. Well, Hi, I am O'Dell Shelley. I
am the executive director at Deep Bridget Alliance, and I'm
gonna introduce my counterpart here. I'm Diana Parker, trusta from
(01:35):
the executive director of the Midwest Access Coalition. And yeah,
so y'all have been in some ways kind of dealing
with elements of the post row world because obviously, like
you know, we're all focused on this Supreme Court decision
that's in the pipeline, but um, anti choice activists have
been working very hard to essentially create a post row
(02:00):
world in chunks of the United States prior to this point.
So you all have been kind of dealing with the
reality that a larger number of people are going to
be living under for a while, right. Yeah. Yeah, Missouri
has been able to effectively bad abortion state for years now.
I think, Uh, there's maybe a handful of abortions that
(02:21):
the one clinic there are able to do because of
all of the trap laws, um, which is the targeted
restrictions for abortion providers. Uh, and the waiting period, so
people have to go to another state Kansas, Iowa or
Illinois Missouri. Um, and we've been helping those books for years,
(02:44):
and UM, I'm gonna guess this. I mean, just because
you've been living in with this for a while, I'm
gonna guess the announcement last week did not come as
a total surprise. The timing of it certainly did, which
for Diana and I came at the heels of a
conference that we were at thankfully together, which is was
(03:08):
kind of just pure luck for us so we could
actually commiserate together. But no, ultimately this is not a
huge surprise. I mean, I think we're all still waiting
to see what actually happens in June. That the writing
has been on the wall for months, in years, if
not longer. And you know, as you were just pointing
(03:28):
it out, essentially, for organizations like the Bridget Alliance and
the Midwest Exist Coalition, we have been existing already because
the protections of ROW are insufficient to actually secure abortion
access for all in this country. So this has been
our lived experience, and preparing for this moment has um
(03:49):
It has been a long time coming, and I'm sure
there have been a number of conversations that have been
going on about what to do and how to prepare
for this right because the primary change is going to be,
at least initially until some they make some sort of
federal push that states that have some sort of functional
access to abortion are going to be flooded with an
(04:11):
even higher number of people in need of care. Um,
could you kind of walk us through what sort of
steps have been taken to in order to kind of
brace for that impact, so to speak. Yeah, So I
think a couple of things. And and the first to
sort of pull back on that for a second is
to say that part of preparing for what's to come
(04:32):
has been our orgs in the community that we exist in.
This this incredible expansive landscape of different types of organizations
that have existed for decades to secure abortion access where
the laws were insufficient, where um, people were faced with
barriers like income in equity and geographic inequity and the
(04:54):
unavailability of providers. UM. This network, though, has a existed
largely unseen, and so a lot of preparing for what
is to come is really embracing our existence, feeling affirmed
in that and in our value, not shying away from
the expertise within this community, which is held both by
(05:16):
volunteers as well as staff UM and so I think
a lot of the last couple of years has been
focusing on really trying to harness that expertise and that
knowledge and compassion and the fact that many of the
people who are leading a lot of the efforts in
the reproductive justice movement are people who have had abortions themselves,
which is a enormous um and valuable part of how
(05:40):
this movement moves and hopefully will continue to center the
people most impacted by the fall of row UM. I think,
more specifically for Bridget and or its like MAC preparation
means deepening our relationships with the clinics that we work with.
They are critical, of course, and their sanity is critical
(06:00):
to abortion access. Is making sure that we have the
sufficient funding to continue to staff train that volunteers systematically
and mindfully UM and ideally do so in a sustainable
way so that we're not all overwhelming ourselves with the
sudden surge of need and the sudden surge of impact UM.
(06:20):
And then you know, for Diana and I even personally,
it means deepening the relationships that us practical support organizations
have with one another, Because no one organization is going
to be able to help every single abortion seeker who
will need to travel. It will rely upon really strong
and transparent collaboration. So those are some of the things
(06:41):
that we've been focusing on. One of the things that
strikes me as a problem that's going to be, if
not immediate and pretty imminent for y'all, is we've are
you seen threats and promises from legislators in some states
(07:03):
to attempt to criminalize leaving a state where abortion is
illegal in order to get access to healthcare? How what?
What kind of preparation is even possible for that sort
of world, because it does seem like we're staring down
the barrel of that. Yeah, I think the only preparation
we can have right now is to expect that the
(07:25):
corners will allow them to do that. Um. They're very
creative now that they've seen a go into effect and
hold on as the law of the land, even though
it's in direct violation of federal law. UM scoede us.
The highest code up court of our country, uh is
the one that has been allowing that to happen. And
(07:48):
so that sends a huge message to all these UH
force birth legislators that you know, bring us your worst
take on the law. We will in a way to
let you keep it. UM. We're we're working with you
on this and UM you just need to get bolder
(08:09):
and bolder and see what you can get away with. UH.
So we can't really predict how they're going to do that,
although Missouri has indicated that they're going to consider an
I guessing as it's fertilized a resident and UM a
resident of the state, that they have, you know, responsibility
for protecting UM, completely ignoring the fact that it's growing
(08:34):
inside a complete human being that has rights. UM. But
that's that's the latest that I've heard of them figuring
out how to restrict someone's someone's travel UM. But it
would require a significant shift in how we understand constitutional
law and UM the basis for our legal system, and
(09:00):
that that seems like something that I don't know, like
really genuinely seems to be on the table in this moment.
I maybe we have I think it's Louisiana who's trying
to like part part part of their bill is that
they like literally it says that they can disobey the
federal government, which we had a civil war about that,
we had we had a nullification crisis about that. We like, so, yeah,
(09:24):
I guess I'm wondering what your impression is on like
how far this can go? Like, do do we get
to the point where states can just like tell the
federal government no? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what the
architect of the st law essentially told the part is
that they don't have jurisdiction and all the laws that
(09:47):
they have passed in the hundreds are actually um enforceable,
and the federal government has no authority to stop them,
and uh, they are the fifth district ants. Tootis has
indicated that maybe you are right, maybe that is the
correct way to interpret our constitution. UM. So I feel
(10:09):
like all of that, all of our decades centuries of
um figuring out what the law means for this country
is just up in the air, and we may be
looking at laws now that are just more and more
buzz are um, as long as you know the GOP
(10:34):
and the right have control over so many bodies of
our governments. You it really is, I can't even fathom.
I don't think we can predict what's going to come honestly, Um,
I mean, I'm also wondering, to put it crudely, will
(10:56):
legislators in states that are currently committing because we have
seen an umber states California kind of leading the pack
committing to maintain um access to to to abortion and
other forms of reproductive health care that are being threatened
right now? Do do you like, do you feel like
you have a good chance that they are going to
(11:17):
back you, especially in the event of, you know, laws
that would potentially open people like you up to criminal
charges just for trying to support people in getting you know,
reproductive health care outside of their state. Is your question?
Do you do we think that elected officials that are
pro choice are going to back us? Yeah? Yeah, yeah?
Do you like it's entirely possible that we're going to
(11:38):
see some sort of federal law that not just criminalizes
abortion or even like prior to that criminalizes aiding people
in seeking abortion outside of states that have banned it, right,
Like that's on the table. How does that change the landscape?
Where do you suspect that, like in kind of a
similar way to have some of these some of the
(11:58):
legislators and states trying to ban abortion said like we're
just going to ignore federal law if that contradicts our
state law. Do you think that, um? Do you think
that pro choice legislators in states you know, like California
are going to be willing to go to the mat
and protect you? Or are are we? I mean, yeah,
I guess I I know this is kind of an unknown,
but I'm kind of these must be conversations that y'all
(12:19):
are having, right, I mean, I really freaking hope that
they are. And if they're listening, please please prepare to
do so. And it's really heartening to see states like
California and Oregon, in Illinois and New York and Connecticut
for instance, UM, come up with really clear language around
(12:42):
their support of not just choice, which was the language
of the past, but abortion and are saying that and
are starting to invest in things like abortion funding and
trouble to themselves actually, you know, put forth their own
efforts to contribute to the people will need to travel
into their states. UM. And you know, Diana was just
(13:05):
speaking the other day with a bunch of electing officials
in Chicago, So I think I think this is also
why what I was talking about earlier in terms of
orgs like ours, coming coming into the light is so important,
is that we were going to need those relationships with
those politicians. We're gonna need them to know us and
see us and understand that we're a critical part of
how we're going to serve their constituents and that, yeah,
(13:28):
we're going to need them to back us. Will they
I can't say definitively, but I really freaking hope so yeah, yeah,
and hopefully those you know, as deal said just now,
I was UM in a press conference yesterday the city
the Mayor's office announced this fund to support abortion procedure
funding and practical support. And my hope is with UM
(13:51):
municipalities will talk to each other and give each other
the models for doing UH this protective, preemptive UH support
for people traveling to our states for abortion here and
UM yeah, I'm in with talks with the a c
l U in Illinois to talk about potential UM bills
(14:13):
that are floating around to even further protect UH pub
in this state. Specifically, I know of one that wants
to explicitly protect providers from being extradited or sued or
shut down by prosecutors in other states that want to
claim that they have to jurisdiction because like, like I said,
(14:35):
they figured out a way to give residency status to
fertilized eggs or something. You know, it's just completely fun
that That's kind of what we're staring at, right Like
that that's that's the thing that you have to be
concerned with, is like out of state law enforcement. I
don't know, like and and that's the thing. No one
knows what it's going to look like, right Like, we
(14:55):
know that they have a vested kind of interest already
and do being parts of this through bounties, which is
kind of like the thing that I'm worried about. Are
we going to see like out of state law enforcement
bounty hunting people trying to folks up with reproductive healthcare?
And I guess that's just kind of an unknown at
this point, but it's right, and it really depends on
like our local protected state juristics, Like how far are
(15:19):
they going to go to protect us from those entities
that are going to try to come in for us?
Um Just just today, one of our staff members tweeted
about practical support funds and who to support throughout the
country that provides the sort of travel logistics for people
(15:39):
and they got followed by a sheriff department in Missouri. Yeah,
so there are already you know, targeting and surveilling uh,
abortion seekers and the people who support them. Yeah, and
of course I'm sure that there's a degree to which
some of these folks are working with um, shall we say,
(16:00):
non state actors in order to like, I know they've
been prepping with that for a while as well. Um,
what is I mean one of the things that I
know because I've been having some conversations with friends of
mine who are and like I guess we could say
adjacently adjacent organizations to to where y'all work and who
(16:20):
are at in some cases the convention you were at,
who are concerned that as providing people with reproductive healthcare
becomes illegal. Um, there's going to be a lot of
fair weather friends kind of revealed and I I am interested, like,
is this a thing that in order to be engaged
in providing people with reproductive health care you have to
(16:42):
be willing to engage in illegalism at this point? Like,
is that really where we are? That's really interesting question. Yeah.
As as a member, like as I go and threes, uh,
you know, looked at our state governments are federal governments.
(17:04):
We can't engage in anything that's legal. Um. But people
have forever on their own dumb things that the state
has considered illegal in order to have bodily autonomy. UM.
There are people who can't afford it. There are people
who are just so far from the nearest clinic that
they can't even fathom how to make that trip. Uh.
(17:26):
They're undocumented folks. Uh. There are people near the borders
that can't even physically move past a border checkpoint because
they're just trapped there and can't get care um in
other parts of their state where it's available. UM. So
there that that will be a thing. I think that
(17:48):
is going to increase, because the need will not decrease. UM.
And I do not like my organization and we can't
really see anything about that. But you know, personally, I'm like,
you do whatever it takes to live your life and thrive. UM.
(18:09):
Laws are made up especially now. Yeah, that is nice
to hear because I, you know, I try to keep
abreast of the sides of this fight that are you know,
working through five O one sees and and the like
and engaging in electoralism. The people who are you know,
(18:30):
doing stuff like trying to figure out ways to um
provide access to like miso pills and whatnot to people, UM,
because that's just where we are. We've talked about the
(18:50):
degree to which you guys have already been living in
some people's future, you know, just because of the specific
nature of what your organizations have been doing, UM, and
the degree to which you know you knew some of
this is coming. What has surprised you outside of just
like the fact that it got leaked ahead of time
about kind of what we've seen in the last weekend
change mm hmmm mm hmm. I think I am. I'm
(19:19):
not so much surprised by the response from folks. UM.
I'm a little frustrated that it took this moment for
people to realize what has been happening in this country
for the past decade, few decades. Honestly, this is this
(19:39):
is a very long game, uh for the antis. But
ever since Trump was put into office and started just
flooding the federal courts with very young, very anti conservative
judges UM and SPA was a huge flag. UM. But
(20:00):
I think I was surprised that there was a maths
amount of people that we're going to step up when
the decision came out. Um, it's it gives me hope.
I hope it's sustained for the many many years we're
going to need uh practical support and abortion funds while
(20:23):
we fight for legal rights. Um. Yeah, so I guess
the surprise is a mixed it's a bad for me. Yeah,
I was gonna say something similar that I think I've
been pleasantly surprised at how well educated and informed a
(20:46):
lot of our supporters and newer supporters are about as
Diana mentioned, the existence of abortion funds and practical support organizations.
That practical support is even being talked about is huge.
We couldn't get this conversation and into the media a
couple of years ago. So like, this is really remarkable
and important. But what's more, there seems to be also
(21:08):
like a understanding of why we have to exist. Um,
it doesn't seem to be shocking people quite as much
of but there certainly are still tons of people who
are shocked by this. But for many, they're not shocked
that for some abortion has simply been inaccessible and what
those reasons are. Um, and you know that's things obviously
(21:29):
to a lot of the really hard, important conversations that
have been had over the last couple of years about
racial justice. And I think that, you know, it's a
silver lining for sure, but I'm I'm grateful to find
that the depth of the conversations is there now and
hopefully that means that the commitment is going to be
sustained in long term, because this is a little bit
(21:50):
of deja vu for us in the sense that we've
had little moments like these ever since our organizations existed. Um,
when a single band goes into place or threatened to
go into place, this like swell occurs using my hands
a lot, which obviously can't see if you're listening to
me right now, So I'm gonna put my hands down, um,
(22:11):
and you know, and that and that brings out a
lot of really incredible donors and a lot of really
incredible offers for volunteers, and and then they tend to
go away. Um. And especially when when Biden was you know, elected,
and there was definitely this like moment where everyone was like, Okay,
we're cool, right, which this guy hasn't said the word abortion,
but we're still fine. And we're not We're like the
(22:34):
furthest from fine. So yeah, again, like pleasantly surprised that
people seem to have, um a sense of why we're here. Yeah,
I just wanted to bring up the website. Did Biden
say abortion yet or it just like it's so unfortunately
(22:58):
hilarious to me, um, but I've is really glad it exists. Um.
And then they someone reached out to the someone in
the Biden administration to make a comment on this when
the when the the draft was leaked, and they said, well,
we tweeted it or like whatever it's and it's like
it's he said it once in a tweet and like
(23:19):
once in like a statement or something. So I just
think it's there, you go. I don't know what more
we want, but like, I just think it's important to
what you were saying earlier. Um, how legislators in Oregon
or California, like it's so important they're saying the word abortion,
not just pro choice, because I think a lot of
people are a lot of people are scared about that
word for some reason, or it sounds scary to them
(23:39):
if they're not that educated about what pro choice means
or what abortion means. So I think I have a
little bit more hope seeing more people even saying that word, UM,
because it yeah, yeah, I think the statistics is something
like the antis have been using the word abortion three
(24:00):
times as much as we have, and that is why
it's so stigmatized and difficult to talk about. And I
definitely try to encourage people to say the word abortion,
to talk about abortion with everyone they know. Uh, just
so we can stop hiding. I guess kind of the
last thing I'd like to ask, and we can we
can cut this bit if this winds up not being
(24:21):
something you want to get into. But have you have
you felt an additional need to worry about given how
public you are in your advocacy personal protection UM, as
things kind of have heated up, you know, we were
we were recently at the conference that you mentioned before, UM,
(24:41):
and it definitely with all of my colleagues in one place,
it definitely made me feel a little vulnerable for myself
and them. But honestly, the people who are targeted or
the providers by far UM, I'm not worried about my
physical safety. UM. I'm worried about the physical safety over
(25:03):
of our providers and the fact that our government is
responding to peaceful protesters outside kavanas Um House and talking
and and asked for I think Susan Collins on the
sidewalk outside her residents results in legislation being media immediately,
(25:28):
they all somehow got together for once in their lives
to do something about the terrorists who chalked sidewalks by
legislators home. Um uh is it's it's really demoralizing. Um,
because we have our providers have seen violence and um yeah,
(25:54):
they've seen violence every day, murders, ASCID attacks, bombings. Um. Yeah,
Chris Sharene, do you have anything else you wanted to
get into. Yeah, I wanted to ask one thing, so,
you know, Okay, seeing this sort of increasing fectlessness or
politicians even by their standards, and you know, their response
(26:16):
to this being let's give more power to the U. S. Marshals,
which is maybe great, the worst idea I've ever seen.
But what can just people do about this in it?
You know, I mean we've talked about like giving to
abortion funds, but like what, how how can people get
involved and how can people get involved in a way
that's sustainable of the long term. Yeah, I mean, definitely
(26:38):
give two abortion funds, give to practical support organizations like
the Midwest Access Coalition and the bridget Alliance. UM. If
you are interested in volunteering, reach out to your local organization. UM.
There are a couple of really great resources for lists
of those organizations and where they are, like the National
Network of Abortion Funds. UM. And you do bear with
(27:02):
all of us because we are handling a flurry of
emails and that's incredible, But we won't be able to
plug you in immediately. UM. It might even take a
little bit of time. But then I think that you know,
voting is still critical, especially in local UM, in any
local elections, especially if we're thinking about how we're going
(27:23):
to prevent the possible criminalization of abortion seekers and of
abortion providers. We need to make sure that we've got
the judges in good local elected officials at the very least,
So do not stop doing that. UM. Yeah, I think
those would be the things that I would say, focus
on and the thing that I always say, which is
just like talk about it. Like I am totally that
(27:46):
person who is like the downer at the dinner party
talking about abortion, But be that person and go and
talk about it and share why it's important and how
it's not just about abortion and it's not just about
women it's at families, it's about parents, it's about queer folks,
it's it's about immigrants, it's about miners. Um, You've got
(28:08):
a lot to be worried about right now, So don't
stop talking, listening, reading, consuming whatever you can. Yeah, And
just to jump off that, if you are in a
safe state, you're not going You're not going to be
safe forever. Uh, They're gonna come after us. They're going
to come after the legislators, the supreme courts of those states.
(28:30):
They're usually a thin margin, um as far as conservative
versus progressive judges on state supreme courts. So find out
who your local org is that is leading that voter
turnout to make sure that people are voting for the
right judges go in. Um. And also I wanna lift
(28:53):
up escorts. Escorts are on the ground many days of
the week. They will put you to work and they're
going to be needed more and more. UM. Yeah, I
think that's that's all very important and a good note
to end on. Does anyone else have anything else or
are we um? Should we should? We? Let y'all get
back to your very important work. UM, And thank you
(29:14):
again for for making the time for us absolutely thank
you for covering us and talking about it. Yeah, happy
to do so we'll be we'll be continuing to to
do that. And I hope you all. Um, um, jeez,
I don't even know what to say. Like, I hope you.
(29:35):
I hope you function up for the people who are
sucking shut up, you know. But I hope the support
doesn't like dissipate as like the trend goes away or whatever.
You know. I think that's so disheartening if that happens.
And like, hopefully the flood of emails but not necessarily
remains a flood for you. But like, I hope that
(29:56):
people are actually serious about doing something. And um, I
think this time they might be just because I keep
being surprised about little things, so I'm not gonna expect
anything anymore. Maybe people were surprising, But I really appreciate
the work you do. Um, So thanks for coming out
to talk to us. Thank you, Thank for us. It
(30:23):
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