March 31, 2025 • 26 mins
James talks to Jamie, a librarian, about the threat of federal funding being withdrawn from libraries and how listeners can help.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
As media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me
James today and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian,
and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts
on library funding and I guess years of attacks on
library funding. So welcome to the show. Jamie. Thanks for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, this is really great for me because I have
been trying to find a librarian for a very long
time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand
that lots of people have been like really concerned that
we cover this, but also very afraid for their jobs,
which is a rough position to be in. So thank
you for coming on. I thought we'd start with like,
there was an executive order on the fourteenth of March.
I think it was called something like further something the
(00:49):
federal bureaucracy cutting, slashing, diminishing whatever, you know, I don't
really care. One of the outcomes of this was I
believe the Trump administry you're moving towards a complete closure
of IMLS. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So it depends upon how much joj and Trump and
company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has
already funded IMLS. Just the Institute of Museum and Library
Services for this year, so that money already exists, it's
already been allocated, and so in theory they should be
(01:25):
good for at least a year, and then next year
when the budget comes up again, it should be up
to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it.
But the executive Order and the commentary on it does
say that they would like to dissolve it kind of
as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really
up in the air about how fast things would move,
(01:47):
what exactly would happen, if it would be this year,
if it be next year, Whether anyone's going to listen
to Congress.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you
explain for listeners who aren't familiar what i AM is
and what it does.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, So it's as I said, the Institute of Museum
and Library Services, And so basically they are allocated money
by Congress every year, and then they hand it out
to states, especially them, who kind of break it down
into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries
and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So
(02:24):
that includes things like on the museum side, maybe you know,
putting together programming or doing big digitization projects. I used
to work at an institution where we had a grant
that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And
on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff,
especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like
(02:47):
summer reading programs, equipment, especially for internet access, you know,
all this stuff related to job training and those services
that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one
so that people can access materials of their life. Library
doesn't hold but it's held by other libraries. Yeah, and
rural libraries and tribal libraries especially really really benefit from this.
Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, yeah, I was I was wondering why who fund
it into library loans so that they're the ones who
facilitate like the transporting of the books.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, well, you know, depending on how your library, some
libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if okay,
you know, especially for small rural public libraries where that
might be very expensive. That is one thing that these
grants go to is interralibrary loan.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Okay. Yeah, there are lots of very important services, And
what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS
budget at all, Like, what would it mean especially if like,
like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially
I guess more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So I first want to mention that the entire budget
of IMLS for twenty twenty four was something like two
hundred and sixty six million dollars. We're not talking about
huge sums of money in terms of the federal government.
It comes out to about seventy five percent per person
in the country, So we're not going to be saving
on our taxes if this goes away. But that money
(04:05):
makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that
you know, maybe have a million people in it might
see a couple million dollars of these grants per year.
And so what that would mean is that the things
that maybe not all of them, but most of the
thing that these grants cover would not be there. So
that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places.
(04:25):
That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the
hot spots that they lend out to people who don't
have internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't
be the class that teaches your grandma how to not
get caught in a fishing scam. So all sorts of things,
those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not,
especially in red states, other funds that are going to
(04:48):
come to cover that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, Like I think I was looking online and that
by Judy it's something like zero points zero zero three
percent of the federal budget is going to It's trivial.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's so small, right, Yeah, you could like take the
I don't know, the gold toilets away from the navy
and cover it in right, Like it's so small, yeah, yeah,
and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know,
the statistics say that every dollar spent on IMLS returns
two dollars to the economy. So it's actually, if you're
(05:18):
going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to
these more marginalized areas.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, maybe we should talk about that because I think
if people like maybe they just don't happen to go
to the library, maybe they don't you know, realize they
have services they need, or maybe they don't live in
the US the library is not just a place where
you can go and borrow the books, right, Like, can
you explain some of the services that libraries provide, like
you mentioned some, but they really help people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, So, in for better or for worse, public libraries
in the United States have become the social safety net
of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere and
it's so hard to get you know, even not right now,
but even in the past couple decades, other social programs
started in many parts of the US that things kind
(06:04):
of just get lumped into the libraries. So now you
get your tax forms there, maybe they have a social
worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can
sit when it's snowing.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, So that kind of is like a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Of side from what we're talking about right here. But
I really do want to point out that public libraries
have become the social safety net in many many places.
So that aside you know, offerings of aside from books
and other media including ebooks, audiobooks, movies, and lots of formats, magazines, newspapers,
(06:33):
there are tons of classes about all sorts of things,
especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of
people it's their only reliable Internet access. So you know,
in twenty twenty five, you can't do mostly anything without
the internet. You can't get a job without the internet,
you can't maybe pay your bills without the internet. So
that's a reliable place that people who don't have internet
(06:55):
for various reasons. Maybe they live so far out in
the country that just doesn't go there unless you have
satellite right even now, or maybe you can't afford it
or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and
there's six kids, and someone has to do their homework,
so what everyone else going to do, So then the
computers themselves. And then also the other thing that I
am less also does is those grants will sometimes purchase
(07:16):
research databases, so if people kids especially are trying to
do their homework. Again, like children's and teens programming is
another thing between homework help social things clubs. So in
a lot of places where there's not much going on,
it's one of the places where young people can go
in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be
getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the
(07:37):
adults think they are, because there's somewhere productive to be
there's somewhere that's inside, supervised or something to do. And
so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in
normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend
service or later hours. But if we're looking at it
in the lens of IMLS, the building might be open,
maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals butt it.
(07:59):
But then there won't be these programs, there won't be
these resources. They will just be a bunch of books
on the shelves.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, It's like, I don't know. I'm amazed how many
of my friends and neighbors don't understand how much celebrity does.
Like I'm forever like San Diego are housing prices are
ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not
be ridiculous. Lots of us do, but we don't get
to choose, and so like we have a larger house population,
and I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go
(08:25):
to the library and give them a ride or whatever
so they can yet, like you say, access internet services for.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Benefits, yeah, or just like sit and read the paper
and know what's.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Going on in the world, yeah, and like not get
harassed by the cops just for existing, right, which is
the rest of their existence here? Certainly, Yeah, these are
massively important. I think most people are like have no
one because there's not really a big like fuck the
library's movement, you know, like I think people I mean, yeah,
I guess, yeah, I guess it's the whole Like people
(08:55):
should only read stories if they can form and whatnot. Yeah,
fuck those people. A yeah, talking of fuck those people,
we unfortunately have to pivot to ads, so you know,
here is some unfortunate advertisements. All right, we're back talking
(09:22):
to people I dislike. Actually, San Diego mayor Todd Gloria,
who was elected in twenty twenty and then re elected
shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his
first actions was to propose a budget which increased the
punding to the police, surprise, and decrease the funding to
the libraries. It would lead to them closing for an
extra day. Right, And this is our quote unquote progressive mayor,
(09:45):
who you know has been anything but but this isn't
a particularly uncommon scenario, right. I've spoken since then to
librarians around the country who, for the last at least
half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain, like
why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean,
(10:06):
I wanted to speak for, you know, the Democrats defunding
the libraries to give the cops more money. But can
can you explain, like why there has been this ongoing
assault on library budgets.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So you know, you're talking about the last decade and
a half decade. I think we can really trace it
back much farther, at least thirty years to the Clinton administration. Actually, okay,
I want to talk about the Democrats, but even you know,
the roots farther back than that, because we have a
neoliberal problem, right, So it's basically the idea that all
activity should generate obvious, immediate monetary profit, that everything should
(10:38):
be run by a business, that everything should be subject
to the market.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Quote unquote yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And so that's where we are with libraries, is that
even though I can sit here and say every dollar
that the IMLS spends generates two dollars with economic activity,
that that somehow isn't even good enough because when the
powers that be look at libraries, they just see money
being flushed down the toilet, and that's the only way
they can measure anything. So if you look at it
(11:03):
and you're just saying, well, this is a place we
spend money. This doesn't create money, This doesn't make more money.
Happen the idea that everything should be run by a
business and everything is it should be subject to market logics.
That that would say, well, if we're going to subject
everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're
only measuring it. And can this make the balance sheet?
(11:26):
Can this make number go up?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
And even though libraries do make number go up, it's
not obvious. You can't make it obvious. There's no direct
line between what libraries do and number go up, even
though there actually is, for example with imls. So, you know,
starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed
and how the federal government work changed very much under
(11:49):
the guise of increasing service quality, but what they actually
did was lay off a quarter million workers and you know,
turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And
that I think filtered down from the federal level into
states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too
(12:10):
also started to look at how they ran their government things.
And in many places, public libraries are arms of local
government that those two should also be run like a
business would be subject to market logics, and therefore number
does not go up. We don't value this, and that's
basically it is that you know. There, it's hard now
(12:31):
that we've had thirty years of overt neoliberalism in our
government system and a couple of decades more of less
obvious versions of it to make government, which is now
being run like a business, even in the best of times,
value things that aren't that aren't valued strictly monetarily, so
there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value
(12:54):
isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to
electorate lecture at university actually starting again next month, but
like we pivoted towards like everything has to be stem
in education Germany because.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So that'll make money or something.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, I don't know why, because like Bill Gates make
the line go up, and yeah, we lost so much
that has not just intangible bound you you say, but
actual tangible value, very very obvious value, but nonetheless, like
like you say, it's not easy to purn a graph,
so it disappears.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Right, and then you know, even though cops also don't
make money. Yeah, in a direct sense, somehow we can
still fund that. So it really shows that, like in
the case of where you are, but the carcal solution
is now the only solution we have.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say well,
let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well,
what are you going to do instead, our answer is
often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary,
so we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one
of the things that libraries offer is prevention of the
entire situation, making vaslavs of the carcial state unnecessary. So
(14:00):
there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being
taken out of the balance sheets of a city government
from the libraries and put into the cops, of this
carcural choice of saying, we'd rather everyone in life is
shit so we can throw them in jail. Then everyone
have a nice life and no one would have to
go to jail.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and then they can come read a book instead,
and yeah, it'd be nice. It reminds me of one
of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in
the nineteen thirties was to create popular education centers which
included libraries, right, and they funded these entirely. They were
not funded by the state. The state was not interested
in making libraries in nineteen twenties ninety thirties in Spain,
and they funded them from popular subscription and from people's
(14:38):
union dues, and they built these atta nails, which are
now really beautiful places of one of the places I
did my PhD in Barcelona. And like, I wonder if
there is I guess it's very hard for us to
conceive of like a library without the state in the
United States, right, and like rich people putting little libraries
in in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same
(14:59):
thing as much as they'd like to think. It is
like your little phone box library. It's not replacing these services.
So is there a model for like recreating this in
a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems
increasingly hostile to it.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I think there's a couple models, and it depends upon
how far down the revolution you go. So the example
you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and
slightly more recent versions of that in the US. So
the workmen's circle now the workers circle, they funded really
wonderful culture programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially
back when they used to have more buildings, like my union.
(15:37):
I'm part of my union, and aside from just like
being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building
per se. Yeah, So those things have always existed, especially
in the workmen's circle in ethnic communities who were trying
to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into
twentieth century capitalism. And so if we go farther than
(15:58):
the revolution, I read a really great pamphlet recently from
the seventies, actually that was from the UK, and it
kind of discussed libraries. You know, if we make it
through the revolution a little bit as being operated as
under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons is what
we call them now that wouldn't be quite quite that split,
(16:18):
then would be able to govern and run these libraries.
And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely
been ideas for a long time about what this could
look like.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess in the collectivised economy
of revolutionary Barcelona, library still existed at the nails existed,
and I'm sure it was a long a syndicalist model
because everything was so Yeah, I think that's like a
good thing for people to look towards. I want to
stop and take one more break, and then I want
to talk about what people can do to protect libraries.
(16:58):
All Right, we are back so currently, Like I mean,
this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right,
I suppose It's hard to say, but like, how long
would it take before people stop seeing these services if
doge was to start doging tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I honestly can't tell, you know, I think that people
really not doesn't It's hard to say now, right, because
we do have the funding there, it just will it
actually happen? Will the thing happen? Yeah, that has already
been allocated. I think we have a little bit of time,
but I would expect if that congressional isn't expressed that,
(17:36):
especially when summer reading rolls around, will really start to
see it, because that's something that a lot of people
depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer. Yeah,
and especially out you know, in in red states and
rural areas. It's going to be very much like the
I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, kind of situation which is sad, like because
it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the
library very often, right right, right.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That sucks, you know, because it's going to be a
lot of a lot of kids, especially without those resources.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have
survived my undergraduate without libraries book on my grad school
books are super expensive, especially academic books, and like I
relied very heavily on interlibrary loan.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah. And this is you know, at the university level,
to be sure, where books are very expensive. Yeah, but
at the public and school library level, you know, this
is exactly why this is happening, is because there is
this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where where people,
especially like queer kids, say that the library save their lives. Yeah,
young people of color saying like this is the only
place I could see myself in culture by reading these books.
(18:44):
So of course, of course this is happening because that
you know, they want to take that away.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a place where people can
kind of exist yeah without that. Yeah, So let's talk about,
like how can people engage to protect their libraries, What
can they do what I like, some action items they
can take.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I unfortunately don't have great news. I don't think, you know,
because of the way this is working, and it is
so much about just like raw brute power that no
one at the federal government or even state governments for
the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's
just like not something they can conceive of because they
already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. Right,
(19:23):
We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a
congressional you know, this is passed by Congress, and yet
an executive order and Elon Muskin undo it. Right, if
things were working, this wouldn't be happening. So we are
really kind of down down the line a little bit
in what we can do and how effective it's going
to be. That said, there are things we can do.
A lot of them are the things that liberals usually do,
(19:46):
which is like calling your senator over and over and
over again every day, and your representatives and your state
or state government too to make sure that your state
government is paying attention to what they're going to lose.
There is certainly, you know, things one can sign on
to for major library organizations, the ALA has been writing
a lot and less formal organizations than that. I think
(20:09):
one thing that we can always be doing, not just
in the situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries,
one of the best thing and easiest things you can
do is go get a library card if you don't
already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably
something there that you want and that actually really does help.
Because libraries, whether it's with something like IMLS, or whether
(20:29):
it's grants from foundations and or local funders, you know,
their local government are better able to make their argument
for why they should be given money if they have
good statistics to say, we had ten percent more readers
this year. You know, the number of books we loan
this year is higher than it's ever been. People are
coming to our events and droves. That kind of you know,
(20:51):
success breeds success. If they can show that to potential funders,
they're more likely to get money. So don't don't get
about through the book. Just check the book out. Keep
before we can give it back. You know, have time
make those numbers go up.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah. Yeah, And you can even like let's say you're
not inclined to go to the library, for whatever reason
and you don't like going out or worried about COVID
or something like. You can do most of this online, right, Like,
if you have Libby, you can certainly you can borrow books.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
You can borrow ebooks and audiobooks from Libby. Some libraries
have streaming movies. A lot of libraries have still either
all online or hybrid events that you can watch rather
than having to go to the event of the library.
You know. The one thing about about some of those
streaming services and Libby that I will caution about is
that your data is less secure. If that's something you're
(21:40):
concerned about, then it would be borrowing paper books. Because
most libraries, even in the kind of tech dystopian future
we live in, do a decent job or at least
try to be good about your borrowing data when you
borrow hard copies. But because things like Libby and the
streaming services are third party integrations, those collect some amount
(22:03):
of use data. So it's absolutely great to use those.
But I would caution that if if you are a
person who has a very high front model and you
want to be careful about your data, go for the paper.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, yeah, yeah, it's kind nicer, nicer experience to read
a paper book as well. It is what about like
if people I know lots of people who are librarians, listen,
say email me, Like is their way that they can organize?
Who is the way the people are organizing, either to
prevent this or like as a way of harm reduction, right, like,
(22:34):
as a way of reducing the damage to the state
can do to people's access to learning. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So there are a few more radical organizations that I
think are worth paying attention to. My favorite is Library
Freedom Project. They're really wonderful, okay, and more willing to
say the thing without bullshit. Yeah, the thing that you know,
I would obviously urge every worker to do this, But
if you're if your workplace is not unionized, start working
on that. Yeah, that will always give you more power,
(23:02):
So you should. You should start trying to organize your workplace.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, definitely. Hopefully hopefully there's still time for people to
do that.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, who knows where that's going to go, but you
can at least try. It's still legal now.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, right when it starts, and like, regardless of what happens, like,
we're stronger in this together than we are a part
and the unions have done a lot to prevent fascism in.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
The past, and similarly, there are depending upon what state
you live in, there might be a state library organization
that is active, and that would be just a good
way to make connections with other libraries near you and
their librarians, and you know, maybe if you do lose
some of your funding, you can put your heads together
and you know, use each other's resources and have joint
programming and things like that.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That makes sense. Are people like attempting so some of
the stuff I m a lesser is like online archives.
Are people attempting to somehow to download that in order
to preserve it in the event that it goes away?
I don't know that that's really Is that not what's
a threat?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
That's not really what we Yeah, I think that there
are other kind of data rescue projects with the federal
government that have better data than that. IMLS doesn't gay
that much data, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Okay, So it's more like along the workplace organizing.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Side, Yeah, it's definitely like trying to figure out to
make how to make your and the libraries around you
keep going and offering the things yea to your communities
that they've been offering.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, definitely, it would be pretty tragic. Like there's a
library not so far from my house, Like I can
ren my bike, do it. I get it all the time,
and it would be really tragic to be without that. Yeah,
So yeah, please continue to organize your libraries. Is there
anything else that you'd like to plug or suggest people? Like,
it's a pretty bleak time generally, and I think a
lot of us take refuge, especially in reading actually, like
(24:51):
it's a way you can escape terrible things. Like is
there anything else you'd like to kind of suggest for
people as we dive deeper into fascism every day at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I think in libraries and elsewhere where, it's just being
able to offer a counter narrative, like not buying into
the idea that the library is a money hole. You know, yeah,
it can only be valued monetarily. So when you hear that,
maybe start going to your library's board meetings and when
you hear those kinds of things said, get online for
(25:24):
the comments and offer a different narrative. And you can
do that all over your life in different in different ways.
When you hear that narrative that is monetary and neoliberal
and harmful offer a different one.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, I think it's really good. Like, it's so sad
to think that we should have to quantify the value
of everything monetarity, but especially something like a library, Like
so many people have had such positive engagements with them
which have nothing to do with the cash. Next this
sort of like generating revenue and that's what makes them
valuable and what makes them special sometimes. So yeah, hopefully people,
(25:59):
hopefully people can advocate for that. How would you find
your library board meeting if you wanted to look?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
If you your library, if you have a public library
near you, they should have a website and the website
should have an events page that includes board meetings hopefully
other information about your library's board as well. And if
you can't find it, maybe call it the library and ask.
I'll probably just tell you they're really good at information there.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah, that is the thing that they do. All right, Well,
thank you so much for joining us, Jammie. That was great,
It was really really helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Thanks for having me. It could happen.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
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As media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me
James today and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian,
and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts
on library funding and I guess years of attacks on
library funding. So welcome to the show. Jamie. Thanks for
joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, this is really great for me because I have
been trying to find a librarian for a very long
time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand
that lots of people have been like really concerned that
we cover this, but also very afraid for their jobs,
which is a rough position to be in. So thank
you for coming on. I thought we'd start with like,
there was an executive order on the fourteenth of March.
I think it was called something like further something the
(00:49):
federal bureaucracy cutting, slashing, diminishing whatever, you know, I don't
really care. One of the outcomes of this was I
believe the Trump administry you're moving towards a complete closure
of IMLS. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
So it depends upon how much joj and Trump and
company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has
already funded IMLS. Just the Institute of Museum and Library
Services for this year, so that money already exists, it's
already been allocated, and so in theory they should be
(01:25):
good for at least a year, and then next year
when the budget comes up again, it should be up
to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it.
But the executive Order and the commentary on it does
say that they would like to dissolve it kind of
as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really
up in the air about how fast things would move,
(01:47):
what exactly would happen, if it would be this year,
if it be next year, Whether anyone's going to listen
to Congress.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you
explain for listeners who aren't familiar what i AM is
and what it does.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Yeah, So it's as I said, the Institute of Museum
and Library Services, And so basically they are allocated money
by Congress every year, and then they hand it out
to states, especially them, who kind of break it down
into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries
and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So
(02:24):
that includes things like on the museum side, maybe you know,
putting together programming or doing big digitization projects. I used
to work at an institution where we had a grant
that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And
on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff,
especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like
(02:47):
summer reading programs, equipment, especially for internet access, you know,
all this stuff related to job training and those services
that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one
so that people can access materials of their life. Library
doesn't hold but it's held by other libraries. Yeah, and
rural libraries and tribal libraries especially really really benefit from this.
Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, yeah, I was I was wondering why who fund
it into library loans so that they're the ones who
facilitate like the transporting of the books.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, well, you know, depending on how your library, some
libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if okay,
you know, especially for small rural public libraries where that
might be very expensive. That is one thing that these
grants go to is interralibrary loan.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Okay. Yeah, there are lots of very important services, And
what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS
budget at all, Like, what would it mean especially if like,
like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially
I guess more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas
and stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So I first want to mention that the entire budget
of IMLS for twenty twenty four was something like two
hundred and sixty six million dollars. We're not talking about
huge sums of money in terms of the federal government.
It comes out to about seventy five percent per person
in the country, So we're not going to be saving
on our taxes if this goes away. But that money
(04:05):
makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that
you know, maybe have a million people in it might
see a couple million dollars of these grants per year.
And so what that would mean is that the things
that maybe not all of them, but most of the
thing that these grants cover would not be there. So
that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places.
(04:25):
That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the
hot spots that they lend out to people who don't
have internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't
be the class that teaches your grandma how to not
get caught in a fishing scam. So all sorts of things,
those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not,
especially in red states, other funds that are going to
(04:48):
come to cover that.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, Like I think I was looking online and that
by Judy it's something like zero points zero zero three
percent of the federal budget is going to It's trivial.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's so small, right, Yeah, you could like take the
I don't know, the gold toilets away from the navy
and cover it in right, Like it's so small, yeah, yeah,
and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know,
the statistics say that every dollar spent on IMLS returns
two dollars to the economy. So it's actually, if you're
(05:18):
going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to
these more marginalized areas.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, maybe we should talk about that because I think
if people like maybe they just don't happen to go
to the library, maybe they don't you know, realize they
have services they need, or maybe they don't live in
the US the library is not just a place where
you can go and borrow the books, right, Like, can
you explain some of the services that libraries provide, like
you mentioned some, but they really help people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, So, in for better or for worse, public libraries
in the United States have become the social safety net
of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere and
it's so hard to get you know, even not right now,
but even in the past couple decades, other social programs
started in many parts of the US that things kind
(06:04):
of just get lumped into the libraries. So now you
get your tax forms there, maybe they have a social
worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can
sit when it's snowing.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, So that kind of is like a little bit.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Of side from what we're talking about right here. But
I really do want to point out that public libraries
have become the social safety net in many many places.
So that aside you know, offerings of aside from books
and other media including ebooks, audiobooks, movies, and lots of formats, magazines, newspapers,
(06:33):
there are tons of classes about all sorts of things,
especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of
people it's their only reliable Internet access. So you know,
in twenty twenty five, you can't do mostly anything without
the internet. You can't get a job without the internet,
you can't maybe pay your bills without the internet. So
that's a reliable place that people who don't have internet
(06:55):
for various reasons. Maybe they live so far out in
the country that just doesn't go there unless you have
satellite right even now, or maybe you can't afford it
or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and
there's six kids, and someone has to do their homework,
so what everyone else going to do, So then the
computers themselves. And then also the other thing that I
am less also does is those grants will sometimes purchase
(07:16):
research databases, so if people kids especially are trying to
do their homework. Again, like children's and teens programming is
another thing between homework help social things clubs. So in
a lot of places where there's not much going on,
it's one of the places where young people can go
in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be
getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the
(07:37):
adults think they are, because there's somewhere productive to be
there's somewhere that's inside, supervised or something to do. And
so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in
normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend
service or later hours. But if we're looking at it
in the lens of IMLS, the building might be open,
maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals butt it.
(07:59):
But then there won't be these programs, there won't be
these resources. They will just be a bunch of books
on the shelves.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, It's like, I don't know. I'm amazed how many
of my friends and neighbors don't understand how much celebrity does.
Like I'm forever like San Diego are housing prices are
ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not
be ridiculous. Lots of us do, but we don't get
to choose, and so like we have a larger house population,
and I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go
(08:25):
to the library and give them a ride or whatever
so they can yet, like you say, access internet services for.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Benefits, yeah, or just like sit and read the paper
and know what's.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Going on in the world, yeah, and like not get
harassed by the cops just for existing, right, which is
the rest of their existence here? Certainly, Yeah, these are
massively important. I think most people are like have no
one because there's not really a big like fuck the
library's movement, you know, like I think people I mean, yeah,
I guess, yeah, I guess it's the whole Like people
(08:55):
should only read stories if they can form and whatnot. Yeah,
fuck those people. A yeah, talking of fuck those people,
we unfortunately have to pivot to ads, so you know,
here is some unfortunate advertisements. All right, we're back talking
(09:22):
to people I dislike. Actually, San Diego mayor Todd Gloria,
who was elected in twenty twenty and then re elected
shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his
first actions was to propose a budget which increased the
punding to the police, surprise, and decrease the funding to
the libraries. It would lead to them closing for an
extra day. Right, And this is our quote unquote progressive mayor,
(09:45):
who you know has been anything but but this isn't
a particularly uncommon scenario, right. I've spoken since then to
librarians around the country who, for the last at least
half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain, like
why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean,
(10:06):
I wanted to speak for, you know, the Democrats defunding
the libraries to give the cops more money. But can
can you explain, like why there has been this ongoing
assault on library budgets.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So you know, you're talking about the last decade and
a half decade. I think we can really trace it
back much farther, at least thirty years to the Clinton administration. Actually, okay,
I want to talk about the Democrats, but even you know,
the roots farther back than that, because we have a
neoliberal problem, right, So it's basically the idea that all
activity should generate obvious, immediate monetary profit, that everything should
(10:38):
be run by a business, that everything should be subject
to the market.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Quote unquote yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
And so that's where we are with libraries, is that
even though I can sit here and say every dollar
that the IMLS spends generates two dollars with economic activity,
that that somehow isn't even good enough because when the
powers that be look at libraries, they just see money
being flushed down the toilet, and that's the only way
they can measure anything. So if you look at it
(11:03):
and you're just saying, well, this is a place we
spend money. This doesn't create money, This doesn't make more money.
Happen the idea that everything should be run by a
business and everything is it should be subject to market logics.
That that would say, well, if we're going to subject
everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're
only measuring it. And can this make the balance sheet?
(11:26):
Can this make number go up?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
And even though libraries do make number go up, it's
not obvious. You can't make it obvious. There's no direct
line between what libraries do and number go up, even
though there actually is, for example with imls. So, you know,
starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed
and how the federal government work changed very much under
(11:49):
the guise of increasing service quality, but what they actually
did was lay off a quarter million workers and you know,
turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And
that I think filtered down from the federal level into
states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too
(12:10):
also started to look at how they ran their government things.
And in many places, public libraries are arms of local
government that those two should also be run like a
business would be subject to market logics, and therefore number
does not go up. We don't value this, and that's
basically it is that you know. There, it's hard now
(12:31):
that we've had thirty years of overt neoliberalism in our
government system and a couple of decades more of less
obvious versions of it to make government, which is now
being run like a business, even in the best of times,
value things that aren't that aren't valued strictly monetarily, so
there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value
(12:54):
isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to
electorate lecture at university actually starting again next month, but
like we pivoted towards like everything has to be stem
in education Germany because.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So that'll make money or something.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, I don't know why, because like Bill Gates make
the line go up, and yeah, we lost so much
that has not just intangible bound you you say, but
actual tangible value, very very obvious value, but nonetheless, like
like you say, it's not easy to purn a graph,
so it disappears.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Right, and then you know, even though cops also don't
make money. Yeah, in a direct sense, somehow we can
still fund that. So it really shows that, like in
the case of where you are, but the carcal solution
is now the only solution we have.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say well,
let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well,
what are you going to do instead, our answer is
often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary,
so we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one
of the things that libraries offer is prevention of the
entire situation, making vaslavs of the carcial state unnecessary. So
(14:00):
there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being
taken out of the balance sheets of a city government
from the libraries and put into the cops, of this
carcural choice of saying, we'd rather everyone in life is
shit so we can throw them in jail. Then everyone
have a nice life and no one would have to
go to jail.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and then they can come read a book instead,
and yeah, it'd be nice. It reminds me of one
of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in
the nineteen thirties was to create popular education centers which
included libraries, right, and they funded these entirely. They were
not funded by the state. The state was not interested
in making libraries in nineteen twenties ninety thirties in Spain,
and they funded them from popular subscription and from people's
(14:38):
union dues, and they built these atta nails, which are
now really beautiful places of one of the places I
did my PhD in Barcelona. And like, I wonder if
there is I guess it's very hard for us to
conceive of like a library without the state in the
United States, right, and like rich people putting little libraries
in in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same
(14:59):
thing as much as they'd like to think. It is
like your little phone box library. It's not replacing these services.
So is there a model for like recreating this in
a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems
increasingly hostile to it.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
I think there's a couple models, and it depends upon
how far down the revolution you go. So the example
you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and
slightly more recent versions of that in the US. So
the workmen's circle now the workers circle, they funded really
wonderful culture programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially
back when they used to have more buildings, like my union.
(15:37):
I'm part of my union, and aside from just like
being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building
per se. Yeah, So those things have always existed, especially
in the workmen's circle in ethnic communities who were trying
to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into
twentieth century capitalism. And so if we go farther than
(15:58):
the revolution, I read a really great pamphlet recently from
the seventies, actually that was from the UK, and it
kind of discussed libraries. You know, if we make it
through the revolution a little bit as being operated as
under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons is what
we call them now that wouldn't be quite quite that split,
(16:18):
then would be able to govern and run these libraries.
And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely
been ideas for a long time about what this could
look like.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess in the collectivised economy
of revolutionary Barcelona, library still existed at the nails existed,
and I'm sure it was a long a syndicalist model
because everything was so Yeah, I think that's like a
good thing for people to look towards. I want to
stop and take one more break, and then I want
to talk about what people can do to protect libraries.
(16:58):
All Right, we are back so currently, Like I mean,
this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right,
I suppose It's hard to say, but like, how long
would it take before people stop seeing these services if
doge was to start doging tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I honestly can't tell, you know, I think that people
really not doesn't It's hard to say now, right, because
we do have the funding there, it just will it
actually happen? Will the thing happen? Yeah, that has already
been allocated. I think we have a little bit of time,
but I would expect if that congressional isn't expressed that,
(17:36):
especially when summer reading rolls around, will really start to
see it, because that's something that a lot of people
depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer. Yeah,
and especially out you know, in in red states and
rural areas. It's going to be very much like the
I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah, kind of situation which is sad, like because
it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the
library very often, right right, right.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That sucks, you know, because it's going to be a
lot of a lot of kids, especially without those resources.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have
survived my undergraduate without libraries book on my grad school
books are super expensive, especially academic books, and like I
relied very heavily on interlibrary loan.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah. And this is you know, at the university level,
to be sure, where books are very expensive. Yeah, but
at the public and school library level, you know, this
is exactly why this is happening, is because there is
this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where where people,
especially like queer kids, say that the library save their lives. Yeah,
young people of color saying like this is the only
place I could see myself in culture by reading these books.
(18:44):
So of course, of course this is happening because that
you know, they want to take that away.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a place where people can
kind of exist yeah without that. Yeah, So let's talk about,
like how can people engage to protect their libraries, What
can they do what I like, some action items they
can take.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I unfortunately don't have great news. I don't think, you know,
because of the way this is working, and it is
so much about just like raw brute power that no
one at the federal government or even state governments for
the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's
just like not something they can conceive of because they
already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. Right,
(19:23):
We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a
congressional you know, this is passed by Congress, and yet
an executive order and Elon Muskin undo it. Right, if
things were working, this wouldn't be happening. So we are
really kind of down down the line a little bit
in what we can do and how effective it's going
to be. That said, there are things we can do.
A lot of them are the things that liberals usually do,
(19:46):
which is like calling your senator over and over and
over again every day, and your representatives and your state
or state government too to make sure that your state
government is paying attention to what they're going to lose.
There is certainly, you know, things one can sign on
to for major library organizations, the ALA has been writing
a lot and less formal organizations than that. I think
(20:09):
one thing that we can always be doing, not just
in the situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries,
one of the best thing and easiest things you can
do is go get a library card if you don't
already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably
something there that you want and that actually really does help.
Because libraries, whether it's with something like IMLS, or whether
(20:29):
it's grants from foundations and or local funders, you know,
their local government are better able to make their argument
for why they should be given money if they have
good statistics to say, we had ten percent more readers
this year. You know, the number of books we loan
this year is higher than it's ever been. People are
coming to our events and droves. That kind of you know,
(20:51):
success breeds success. If they can show that to potential funders,
they're more likely to get money. So don't don't get
about through the book. Just check the book out. Keep
before we can give it back. You know, have time
make those numbers go up.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah. Yeah, And you can even like let's say you're
not inclined to go to the library, for whatever reason
and you don't like going out or worried about COVID
or something like. You can do most of this online, right, Like,
if you have Libby, you can certainly you can borrow books.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
You can borrow ebooks and audiobooks from Libby. Some libraries
have streaming movies. A lot of libraries have still either
all online or hybrid events that you can watch rather
than having to go to the event of the library.
You know. The one thing about about some of those
streaming services and Libby that I will caution about is
that your data is less secure. If that's something you're
(21:40):
concerned about, then it would be borrowing paper books. Because
most libraries, even in the kind of tech dystopian future
we live in, do a decent job or at least
try to be good about your borrowing data when you
borrow hard copies. But because things like Libby and the
streaming services are third party integrations, those collect some amount
(22:03):
of use data. So it's absolutely great to use those.
But I would caution that if if you are a
person who has a very high front model and you
want to be careful about your data, go for the paper.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Okay, yeah, yeah, it's kind nicer, nicer experience to read
a paper book as well. It is what about like
if people I know lots of people who are librarians, listen,
say email me, Like is their way that they can organize?
Who is the way the people are organizing, either to
prevent this or like as a way of harm reduction, right, like,
(22:34):
as a way of reducing the damage to the state
can do to people's access to learning. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So there are a few more radical organizations that I
think are worth paying attention to. My favorite is Library
Freedom Project. They're really wonderful, okay, and more willing to
say the thing without bullshit. Yeah, the thing that you know,
I would obviously urge every worker to do this, But
if you're if your workplace is not unionized, start working
on that. Yeah, that will always give you more power,
(23:02):
So you should. You should start trying to organize your workplace.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, definitely. Hopefully hopefully there's still time for people to
do that.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah, who knows where that's going to go, but you
can at least try. It's still legal now.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, right when it starts, and like, regardless of what happens, like,
we're stronger in this together than we are a part
and the unions have done a lot to prevent fascism in.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
The past, and similarly, there are depending upon what state
you live in, there might be a state library organization
that is active, and that would be just a good
way to make connections with other libraries near you and
their librarians, and you know, maybe if you do lose
some of your funding, you can put your heads together
and you know, use each other's resources and have joint
programming and things like that.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That makes sense. Are people like attempting so some of
the stuff I m a lesser is like online archives.
Are people attempting to somehow to download that in order
to preserve it in the event that it goes away?
I don't know that that's really Is that not what's
a threat?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
That's not really what we Yeah, I think that there
are other kind of data rescue projects with the federal
government that have better data than that. IMLS doesn't gay
that much data, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Okay, So it's more like along the workplace organizing.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Side, Yeah, it's definitely like trying to figure out to
make how to make your and the libraries around you
keep going and offering the things yea to your communities
that they've been offering.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, definitely, it would be pretty tragic. Like there's a
library not so far from my house, Like I can
ren my bike, do it. I get it all the time,
and it would be really tragic to be without that. Yeah,
So yeah, please continue to organize your libraries. Is there
anything else that you'd like to plug or suggest people? Like,
it's a pretty bleak time generally, and I think a
lot of us take refuge, especially in reading actually, like
(24:51):
it's a way you can escape terrible things. Like is
there anything else you'd like to kind of suggest for
people as we dive deeper into fascism every day at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I think in libraries and elsewhere where, it's just being
able to offer a counter narrative, like not buying into
the idea that the library is a money hole. You know, yeah,
it can only be valued monetarily. So when you hear that,
maybe start going to your library's board meetings and when
you hear those kinds of things said, get online for
(25:24):
the comments and offer a different narrative. And you can
do that all over your life in different in different ways.
When you hear that narrative that is monetary and neoliberal
and harmful offer a different one.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, I think it's really good. Like, it's so sad
to think that we should have to quantify the value
of everything monetarity, but especially something like a library, Like
so many people have had such positive engagements with them
which have nothing to do with the cash. Next this
sort of like generating revenue and that's what makes them
valuable and what makes them special sometimes. So yeah, hopefully people,
(25:59):
hopefully people can advocate for that. How would you find
your library board meeting if you wanted to look?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
If you your library, if you have a public library
near you, they should have a website and the website
should have an events page that includes board meetings hopefully
other information about your library's board as well. And if
you can't find it, maybe call it the library and ask.
I'll probably just tell you they're really good at information there.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah, that is the thing that they do. All right, Well,
thank you so much for joining us, Jammie. That was great,
It was really really helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Thanks for having me. It could happen.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
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It Could Happen Here News
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Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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AboutPopular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.