April 25, 2024 • 37 mins
Mia and James are joined by Talia Jane to discuss the campus occupation at the University of Columbia and how it’s been misrepresented in legacy media.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Dick It Happen Here, a podcast coming to
you from a week where decades are happening. I'm your
host Nia. Long with me is James Stout Hi May
great to be here and also with us as Talia Jane,
an independent journalist covering social movements and protests who is
currently covering the Gaza solidarity encampments at Columbia University. Talia,
(00:25):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hey, thanks for doing you guys.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hell yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about the Columbia occupation.
I also want to briefly mention that there are a
lot of there's been a wave of occupations of campuses
across the country just right now. This is being recorded
on Wednesday night. By the time this goes up on
like Friday, a lot of the stuff we're going to
be saying is probably going to be at a date
(00:53):
because everything's moving really quickly. But I mean there's occupations
obviously like Columbia. There's like CSU, Humboldt, University of Texas,
at Austin, Ohio, State Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, some University in Italy,
Emerson Tuffs, MIT, NYU, City, University of New York, the
New Schools, University of Rochester, University of Pittsburgh USC, University
of Minnesota, University of Michigan, Vanderbilt UNC, Chapel Hill. I mean,
(01:16):
there's so many of these. By the time that this
goes up, there will be more of them. Yeah, it's
been wild. There's been a lot of I mean at
Humboldt there was a lot of very intense fighting with
the police. A bunch of kids occupied a building. They
beat the shit while Okay, that's going a bit too far,
but they barricaded it, kept the cops from coming in,
(01:37):
cops ran off of campus. So, lots of incredibly wild
stuff happening. Yeah, which I guess brings us to the
Gauza the I guess the original one, the first one
they got a lot of media attention, the Gauza Solidarity
Acampment at Columbia.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So, Telly, I wanted to ask you, so, how did
this sort of start and what's kind of been making
it different from the really pretty large number of other
Free Palestine anti genocide protests that have been on campuses
and off campuses for the past, Like time at six
seven months.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, well, I think the genesis of this was that
Columbia University, as we've seen in universities across the country,
suspended a number of pro Palestine advocacy student groups. They
were very slow to move their feet about targeted attacks
against students who were demonstrating for Palestine, including an incident
(02:36):
where someone was allegedly sprayed with a chemical irritant, or
people were sprayed with a chemical irritant by former IOF
soldiers who are also students here. And just this, you know,
building tension of there is a actual genocide occurring, and
(02:56):
universities are being forced to bend towards the people committing
the genocide instead of standing on the right side of history,
or they're actively choosing to do that too, because their
whole thing is not about actually educating people and preparing
them to be tomorrow's leaders and managers or baristas, but
(03:21):
to get people, you know, to give them money to
fill their coffers and portray this image of you know,
exceptionalism and elitism and whatnot. So that was the genesis.
And then on Tuesday night I got a text at
like eleven pm, I want to say, asking me if
(03:43):
I wanted to come cover a late night slash early
morning de occupation demo. And this was from someone I'd
never talked to before. I had no idea who it was,
but they said it was a Columbia and they said
it was late night, early morning. I thought I'd be
out of here at you know, ten am the next day,
and then, you know, standing there witnessing it all unfold,
(04:06):
it became pretty evident that that was not the case.
And I think the reason why this stands out is
because this is an elite university where you can't say, oh, well,
these are just dumb TikTok kids. These are kids who
have like the these are like adults who have you know,
they have incredible resumes, really high academic excellence. They got
(04:30):
into an extremely difficult school to get into, and they
are joining the ranks of the you know, frazzled fringe,
stinky anarchists and the silly kids who are being brainwashed
by TikTok. And they said, like, no, those people are right,
like this is bad and you need to disclose and
(04:52):
divest and we're not going to stop until you do.
And I think that that stance from a position of
fledge really shook things up. What followed also set a
tone of the university deciding to call the police and
claiming that this encampment was it posed a clear and
(05:15):
present danger to the safety of students on campus, which
you know, anyone who has spent any length of time
in or around the encampment can plainly see that that
is nonsensical. It's absurd. These are kids that are studying
on a lawn. But that choice of bringing the NYPD
in and having one hundred and eight students arrested by
(05:36):
the NYPD Strategic Response Group, which is their you know,
counter terrorism goon squad that violently represses protests pretty consistently,
to have them arrest one hundred nate people, including carrying
them out from by their arms and lengths and arresting
legal observers. You know that that was like this is
(05:57):
that it was an outsized response for something that was straightforward.
They're hanging out on a lawn. They have everything set
up to sustain within that space. They are not going
out and roaming around and you know, breaking things or
assaulting people or anything like that, and they're just using
this to call attention to their cause, which is divestment
(06:18):
from genocide and from you know, war profiteering and to
and the school's gentrification of Harlem and to you know,
a institute an academic boycott of Israel and Israeli campuses
that are in community with Colombia, like their satellite schools,
(06:40):
that bring the IOF soldiers to Colombia to commit harm
against students here. And you know, so these are these
are very basic asks and they were met with state force,
signed off by the president of the school. And seeing that,
I think is what provoked a lot of other schools
of like Columbia's doing it. Then we definitely got to
(07:03):
because you have a major elite institution taking this step
making clear that this is not just a cause that
you know, the scrappy little weirdos at the bottom like
me care about, you know. And so I think that's
what set it off. And the fact that they returned
(07:24):
they just took over the other lawn while while their
classmates were being processed after being arrested, they just took
over the other one and they're like, all right, we're
gonna set it up here was such a hilariously like
based move that it was like the defiance and the
(07:45):
determination was undeniable. And when you see a group like
with the students at Humboldt, where the cops with the
riot shields are trying to barge in and they're pushing
them back and they're screaming get the fuck out, and
they're bonking them over the head with the empty water jug.
When you see things like that, yeah, when you see
things like that, it's very like there is an energy
(08:10):
to this that has always been there but that has
not been very easily seen by the masses, and we're
now seeing it show its head of like, no, we're
not fucking around, like you need to listen to us.
We're tired of the song and dance game that you're
doing dismissing all of our valid concerns because we know
(08:32):
concretely and statistically that we are on the right side
of history, and we're going to make you listen and
trust that if you beat us up, we're coming back.
Like we're not going away. It doesn't scare us, which
is what the kids at a UT Austin were chanting.
I think when they brought the horses and the state
troopers in. It's like, we're not scared of you. And
(08:55):
that tone has permeated throughout the demonstration's four Palace to
New Liberation since in prior to October. But if you
don't follow the protests, or if you only go by
what the major news outlets are saying about them, you
don't see that tone. So this, for me, is not surprising.
This is a continuation of an energy that has not
(09:20):
ceased for upwards of six months. I think it's the
two hundred and first day of the genocide. So it's
not surprising for people who've paid attention. It's a relief
for kids who are here and who have been involved,
and who have been silenced and ignored and written off
this whole time. It's a very long answer.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I know that's a good one, though. I think it's
a It's great to have your perspective if someone who's
been on the ground. One thing I wanted to ask is, like, obviously,
this is a protest that its core is about state violence,
and it has predictably enough, been responded to with state violence,
And like you said that, people were really not swayed
(10:01):
by that. I wonder if you've seen people who kind
of had the opposite reaction, Like I kind of remember
the student protests that I have been involved in. I'm
just going to say that, and I can remember, like
the reaction by students when seeing that fellow students being
assaulted by the police was like, okay, fuck this, Like
you know, like Georgio Wah has this thing about like
(10:24):
when I see a real flesh and blood worker of
fighting is natural lending me the policeman. I don't have
to ask myself what side I'm on, Like did you
find the same thing with students where they were like okay,
I wasn't out here. And now I've seen the way
the university and the cops have responded to this, and
now I'm coming out because it's not okay.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
The encampment went up Wednesday and it was forcibly removed
with arrests on Thursday, I think, or was it Friday.
I don't remember. It was a long time ago. For me,
it's fine, But prior to the encampment being taken down,
(11:01):
the possibility of it provoked a significant response from the
student body here at Columbia to show up and rally
around the encampment all night. They did this march, this
daisy chain where they were chanting. The more you try
to silence us the louder we will be and disclose, divest,
(11:22):
We will not stop, We will not rest all night
around the encampment to keep it safe and to show
that they had larger support beyond the students who chose
to stay on the lawn at risk of being arrested.
After they were arrested, more students came onto the other
lawn and have continued to occupy that second lawn. So
(11:43):
absolutely it was a strissand effect. They tried to shut
it down, and it made people feel very strongly that
they need to show up and put themselves on the
line as well. And they also I think they saw
what I think it also showed them what the state
does and what the university does, and seeing it firsthand
(12:04):
eliminates a lot of the mystery that, you know, the
fear that can circulate of like the uncertainty of it.
Seeing what it looks like, they're like, oh whatever. And
now they're seeing, you know, videos of protesters being brutalized
on other campuses, and like I heard, someone told me
last night. They said that they overheard someone like talking
(12:25):
to another student on the lawn and they were like, oh,
so you a jail support They're like, yes, you're there,
Like it's it's this sort of they're gonna they're gonna
do what they're gonna do. We don't care, like because
these are the threat of violence. Physical harm, is a
threat to cease whatever it is that you're doing, of
(12:46):
academic harm. These are things that are trying to get
you to stop doing what you're doing. And when you
know that they are being deployed as tools and tactics,
you're not going to stop because they're not scary to you. Well,
what are you gonna do. You're gonna suspend me for
joining in a historic protest? Okay, see if I care,
you know, I think that's the energy for a lot
(13:07):
of students.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a second,
but I don't know, skip them and we'll be back
in however long it takes you to press the forward
button like six times and we are back. So, something
(13:32):
I wanted to ask about. I've been seeing a lot
of stuff floating around about the negotiations that are happening
between the university and the students. I want to know
what have you actually heard about these because the statements
that have been coming out don't seem to really be
matching anything else I've seen going on on the ground.
(13:53):
Do you know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So the university has taken a stance of this is
clearing present danger, It is disruptive, it is harmful, et cetera.
That's because it's impeding with them building stairs and stadium
seating for the commencement that's happening in a couple of weeks.
So you know, it's like that's that's the clear and
(14:18):
present danger is that it's costly for them to have
to wait to complete this this setup. But my understanding
is that the students are very much holding their ground,
very firm, and their their demands are very reasonable. It's saying, like,
tell us where your money comes from, so we can
look into it and see that you're keeping your nose clean.
(14:41):
This isn't a difficult to ask. I think if you
ask to see my receipts, I could hill to you.
Although I'm not an elite university, but I'm also not
you know, profiting off of weapons manufacturing. And so the
university's stance is very much trying to kind of spook
(15:02):
them into quitting. And there was a statement released by
the president last night at four am, saying that the
students made some concessions, two of which were things that
they're already doing, one of which was an easy adjustment
that's not a concession, which was just making the camp
(15:22):
more ADA accessible and in compliance with FD and Y
regulations for fire safety, which I think would be crazy
if a fire broke out at this camp. Anyway, I
was a tangent. And then there was a thing saying
that they're going to be ending negotiations in forty eight
(15:43):
hours and with the students reported out from those negotiations
at the time was at the university at around midnight
threatened to call in the National Guard and to call
in the NYPD, and that shut down negotiations. And it
was only after they put out these wide spread calls
and thousands of people gathered on the lawn in support
(16:04):
of the encampment that that was changed and the university
agreed in writing to not call the YPD and to
not mobilized National Guard, which I don't think they have
the authority to do regardless, but it was this written
concession from the university, and their perspective of it was
(16:25):
that the students provided concessions, and I think it's kind
of it speaks to who each side is speaking to.
The students are speaking to the movement that they have
kind of shepherded into existence, and the university is speaking
to their donors and their trustees and the right wingers
(16:46):
who are having nuclear meltdowns on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That's something else I wanted to sort of ask about,
because I it's kind of hard for me to a
sense of it. Like, Okay, so house Bike Johnson, who
is a utterly deranged session Zionist.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, like you mean the new Churchill mea god like
real weirdo, like anti evolution guy he's been he said,
he said that like he's going to go to.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Congress and call for the National Guard deplay, which also
does it make any sense because Congress I don't can't
do it either, But I think you're trying to get
like the governor, But like, what what do you think
of the actual odds of a national guard to point?
Because I've heard a lot of talk about it and
I can't gauge it at all.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So Hochel has said that that's not on the table,
I believe, and there's no interest from what I can
tell of the actual elected reps in calling in the
National Guard. There is interest from Eric Adams, who is
a former cop and basically still a cop, to use
the NYPD, and the NYPD has been very allergic to
(17:57):
when the National Guard comes out here because they want
to be the ones cracking skulls and being in charge
of brutalizing New Yorkers, and they take a great offense
when someone else comes in and does it for them,
So they wouldn't really be on board with the National
Guard mobilizing here either. The school doesn't have the authority
to do that. It's only the governor. The governor hasn't
(18:17):
made any indication, and Mike Johnson is doing conservative stunt work.
He was joined by Elise Staphonik, who is a conservative
and you know she regularly disseminates disinformation and inflammatory propaganda
to demonize unhoused people, migrants, queer people. So it's no
surprise that they're you know, banging this drum, which was
(18:40):
also pushed by Shy davidy or however he pronounce his name,
who's an assistant professor here, who attempted to hold a
rally in the center of the Cause of Solidarity encampment
with a slew of Zionists and his ID card was
deactivated and he found out in real time time in
front of a bunch of cameras that he called to
(19:03):
come watch him. It was It's one of those things
that you witness in real time that you feel like
you're you're living in a movie. But it was great.
And he had a nuclear tantrum and claimed that it
was because he wasn't safe on campus when he was
told that his protest was not safe for their students. So,
(19:24):
you know, I think it's we're seeing a lot of
rhetoric and a lot of saber rattling from the far right,
from conservatives, from people who have never had any kind
of support for Palestinians or for the cause of Palestinian liberation.
You know, Mike Johnson makes he receives over a quarter
million dollars from APAC. You know, these are these are
(19:47):
not people whose statements should be taken seriously in the
context of what is possible, what is reasonable, and what
is you know, reality to put it nicely, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, I think a reason it's fascinating, like, at least
to me, Like I went to a fancy university, you know,
and engaged in plenty of including pro Palestine actions when
I was there. But a thing that I see, like
as a journalist now, is that the right wing and
wealthy folks generally seem to see that Ivy League universities,
particularly in the US, is like their safe space. And
(20:22):
I think the reason that they're so mad at this
is that they feel like it's not just that it's happening,
it's it's where it's happening, and like that that's called
them to have these massive tantrums like you've reported on.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, there's the there's there's it's it's all
hypocrisy for them because on the one hand, these are
liberal universities who are ushering in an era of DEI
and purple hair and queer kids. And then on the
other side, these are sacred spaces of learning and higher
education that no one should have access to unless they're
you know, grandparents are in the Arian Brotherhood. So it's
(20:56):
it's one of those things where it kind of depends
on the day about how they feel about really elite
campuses of higher learning. But it doesn't matter either way.
They don't care. They don't actually care. They just hate
the cause and will do anything they can to bring
it to a halt. But the DNA of this cause
(21:19):
is to keep going regardless of the efforts to stop it.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Right, And it wasn't so long ago that everyone was
up in arms. When I say everyone on the right
was up and arms about campus free speech, which is
something that seems have likely been forgotten in the last
couple of weeks. It's like, we've all seen videos in
Texas today, right of the DPS and state troopers and
horses and bikes. So they lived to missuse bikes. But yeah,
(21:45):
it's I guess the hipocoty is kind of the point
with those people.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, I mean, like Mike Johnson made his speech today
on the steps of the Low Library. He was talking
about how you know there was a repression of free
speech on campus, but then in the same breath he
said that and that's why I want to call in
the National Guard to eliminate this protest. Their argument is
that this protest is inherently anti Semitic because it rejects
(22:11):
the state of Israel and the genocide and apartheid that
the state has been doing since its inception and prior
to its inception of the Palestinian people, and in the IHRA.
In the IHRA definition of anti semitism, it is any
criticism of the state of Israel, which would include people
(22:32):
who are living in Israel criticizing their own government would
be labeled as anti Semitic. And they're trying to redefine
reality in real time by claiming that these students who
just don't want for mass death to be occurring and
they don't want their university to be responsible in facilitating that,
(22:54):
are somehow anti Semitic. Meanwhile, a large number of them
are Jews themselves, who you know they held satter at
the start of Passover.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, I think, uh maybe do you know bing One,
a photojournalist, Yeah, withtual friend being being took this photo,
which went viral on Twitter. I stories in the New
York Times of a Jewish graduate student just like sitting
on a folding chair being like, now I'm fine, I
don't feel unsafe here.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Oh yeah, I mean that's like, That's the thing is
that the people who feel quote unquote unsafe are also
the people who are known antagonizers of pro Palestine demonstrations.
These are the kids that bought like fart spray from
Amazon to spray on students who were demonstrating peacefully. These
(23:40):
are students who show up with giant flags outside of
Columbia University to antagonize people. They brought thick wooden poles
with flags fixed to them to a demonstration on Wall
Street the week prior to this encampment launching, and they
were antagonizing people, They were getting in, they were trying to,
you know, instigate arguments with people, and you know, they
(24:03):
were just kind of trying to incite, and then they
claim to be victims when people respond to their inciting behavior,
and it's very much like an abusive mentality that they have.
But in terms of like actual anti Semitism, all of that,
all of that rhetoric ends up being a distraction from
actual instances of anti Semitism. And the more that you
(24:25):
try to fuse the political ideology of Zionism with the
prejudice against Jewish people for being Jewish, the more you
try to fuse those together as one thing, like you know,
fusing Jewish identity to Zionism, the more you see instances
of anti Semitism actually antisemitism. So, if anything, like the
(24:46):
students who are coming in cheering on Israel and boasting
about the murderers of you know, tens of thousands of children,
the starvations and the displacements of millions people. The more
that they do that, the more that teaches people like, oh,
maybe all Jews are like that, maybe all Jews are bad.
(25:09):
And then I end up getting DMS from people photoshopping
my face into an oven calling for my death when
you know, I don't give a fuck about the state
of Israel. I don't give a fuck about any states,
you know. So it's just it's it's one of those
things like this is like they are they are planting
toxic seeds and then flipping out when they sprout.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Talking of toxic seeds, now is the time for some
marketing professionals to plant some toxic seeds in your mind.
As we take our second advertising break. All right, well
we're back. I hopeully haven't bought anything since we last spoke, Tylia.
(25:57):
I wanted to talk a little bit about a thing.
Thing that we've seen a lot is like this idea
of like the universe, and this happens at every protest
movement right like the state, the university, whatever. Will seek
to appoint people leaders and allow them to negotiate on
behalf of everyone, even if those people have not consented
to be negotiated for, and then they'll use that to
(26:18):
corrupt the movement, offer concessions that these particular people might want,
and in doing so kind of defang the original sort
of protest. Is that something that you've seen happening or
the university's tried to do to like divide people or
to kind of pull people out and appoint them as leaders.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
They've suspended the people that they believe to be primary
student organizers, but in terms of other divisions, they have
not been successful. These are students organizing with their classmates.
It's not possible for some outside group to infiltrate that
space because they are not students at this university. You know,
(26:57):
there's SJP chapters that students are members of in their schools,
but they are ultimately making the choices of what their
SJP chapter is doing. And you know a lot of
those SJP chapters have been suspended. So, you know, I
think in terms of the possibility of the university having
(27:17):
any sort of in to build some sort of op
is very low. The solidarity that we're seeing is I
don't think I've seen levels of people on the same
page and able to organize the literacy of it is
just phenomenal. You know, there's people who are just they're
(27:39):
all very like clearly knowledgeable about what it is that
they're organizing for, what the risks are, what the history
of the movement is, and they've spent a lot of
time learning those things to make sure that when they
decide to take a step forward, that they are doing
so fully informed and fully empowered. And trying to break
(27:59):
that down is something that has not been successful. And
we've seen that, you know, time and time again. They
have this chance. The more you try to silence us,
the louder we will be. And it's true, and these
institutions should probably start believing it because it would save
them a lot of trouble by you know, trying to
write this off is something that you know, people don't
(28:20):
know what they're doing or you know, whatever it is,
because they are they know everything. They know everything. These
are kids that all they do is study, you know,
like you're talking about huge nerds joining into a massive,
you know, decades long social movement. They've done the reading.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, talking people who's done the reading. I wanted to
talk about like faculty because I know a lot of
people who are faculty at university's listened to this podcast,
and I'm sure they're interested in, like how faculty have
been in solidarity with students there, how they can be
in solidarity with their own students. Have you seen that?
Have you seen faculty showing up?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Oh? Oh yeah. There was a massive faculty walk out
the other day between Barnard and Columbia faculty members. The
schools are kind of related, They're right across the street
from each other, and they have a lot of overlap.
Barnard's kind of under slightly under the university the Columbia umbrella,
but still has then president and things like that. And
(29:23):
there was a huge faculty walkout from both campuses that
gathered on the Low the steps of the Low Library,
and it was easily hundreds I would say, maybe like
five hundred people and that was it. That was it
Columbia and then NYU. The students set up an encampment
and they were surrounded by faculty who had linked arms
(29:43):
as a as a datacy chain around the encampment to
protect the students. So we're seeing a very real, you know,
multi layer of solidarity emerging in these spaces, And I
think it's you know, even if the even if professors
and faculty don't necess cssarily wholly agree or wholly understand,
they're not fully on the same wavelength as the student organizers. Necessarily,
(30:08):
they're still showing up on the basis of, like, these
students of the right to express their opinions, and they
should not be getting met with severe academic or state
discipline for doing so, because we've seen these same campuses
open their doors to people like Charlie Charlie Kirk and
Gavin McGinnis and you know, like white supremacists and white
(30:31):
nationalists who are able to go on their campuses and
spread hate and you know, right going disinformation and try
and recruit people through their you know, Young Republican School chapters.
Those chapters aren't being disbanded. You know, there's there isn't
an urgent rush to prevent the hosting of white nationalists
(30:53):
and white supremacists and you know, people who are.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Actually and intensely anti Semitic to an extreme, they're not
doing anything to actually like prevent those people from appearing
on campus. So I think that there's there's a lot
of layers to it, but there is a very strong
surge of faculty saying like, hey, this is this is
fucked up, and we're not We're not going to let
(31:20):
you think that this is just kids that you're picking on,
like you're also attacking your own staff, who you know,
has a longer relationship to.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
The university, has a you know, as hard as it
is as it is for these kids to get into
the school, it's harder to get hired to work here,
and so you know, we're seeing a lot of that.
There's also security people who were put in charge of
evicting students from their rooms at Barnard because Barnard has
chosen that students at Barnard who participated in this demo,
(31:51):
they weren't only going to be suspended temporarily, but evicted
from their housing, banned from campus, unable to access any
food or meal plans. Where is the Columbia students have
been suspended are still able to access housing and meal plans,
but they aren't allowed to go to class or any
campus events, which is fine because the only one that's
happening right now is the encampment. But you know, there
(32:12):
was there was a security person who sent me email
to the school at Barnard saying like I quit, like
this is this is inhumane, this is undignified, this is crazy.
You're giving these students fifteen minutes to uproot themselves from
their rooms. They might not have another place to go.
These you know, these might be students who don't have
a family's house nearby or you know, or the funds
(32:37):
or the means to live somewhere else and not worry
about the cost. You're you know, destabilizing people's lives in
a very severe way. And this this you know, security
person resigned. They're like this is nuts. So I think
there's there's the fact that just the the overall what
(32:58):
is of how these universities are responding has provided a
type of solidarity. And then there's also the fact that
a lot of people just generally understand that genocide is bad,
and it's gotten to a point where there's a lot
of rhetoric trying to obscure that and obfuskate like what
is genocide? And you know, israel isseroid t exist in
(33:21):
all this other like bullshit like propaganda and disinformation and
you know, fear mongering and all these things. And people
can see very clearly what the game is, and so
we're kind of at a pivotal moment for just common
reality and critical thinking. And I think that we're seeing
a lot of people show that the efforts to alter
(33:45):
what our established common reality is is not working.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
And this brings means is the thing I wanted to
close on, which is, where do you see this going?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Oh, I'm gonna need a minute on that one. I mean,
I mean, you know, we're at a very pivotal moment
in history. There's a lot of comparisons being made to
protests against the Vietnam War, and in those protests, there
was a lot of state violence, a lot of state repression,
but there was also a lot of people willing to
(34:17):
throw down in a very intense way. And you know,
we're already seeing levels to that that have very very
strong parallels, you know, with Lake Aaron Bushmell, which is
also a story that I ended up breaking. And you know, like,
(34:38):
so this is this is big, and I think that
right now, in the midst of it, it's hard to
guess what's going to happen two weeks from now or
six months from now. But I guarantee you we all
know what's going to happen fifty years from now. We're
all going to look at this fifty years from now
and be like, Wow, Stay was on some dumb shit.
(34:59):
Those parts were right, and it's good that they didn't
stop totally.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Yeah, I think that's a great place to end, Talia.
I wonder if you would like to let people know
where they can find you, where they can read your work,
how they can support your work.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Sure, so I mostly report live on Twitter, Talia otg
as in on the ground, and you can support me
by signing up on Patreon for hopefully more than five
dollars a month. Those those small donations cover the entirety
of my living and survival and allow for me to
(35:36):
do this work for the past four years. So I'm
like incredibly grateful. You know, people can support on Patreon.
They can also if you just want to do like
a one time heard you on the pod and loved it.
I have like a PayPal and a Venmo and all
that other shit on my Twitter account if people want
to send a couple couple bucks that way, And you know,
(35:57):
another way to support is send me tips if you
if you decide that you're gonna do something, feel free
to you know email and bio. I always I always want.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
To know Senda, all your all your tips, especially if
you're at Columbia University. Anything else do you want to
plug or me or anything else need to do before
we go.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I'm sorry that my voice sounds really like this. It's
I don't think i've I haven't gotten a lot of sleep,
and I hope that everything I said was coherent, even
though I was just giving you essay after essay after essay.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
It was fantastic. Thank you so much, Shallie.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Thank you so much, and thank you guys. It's something
I could say from everyone that they could happen here.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Fuck him, fuck him up, keep yeah, fucking get him.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
It could happen here as a production the cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at
coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Dick It Happen Here, a podcast coming to
you from a week where decades are happening. I'm your
host Nia. Long with me is James Stout Hi May
great to be here and also with us as Talia Jane,
an independent journalist covering social movements and protests who is
currently covering the Gaza solidarity encampments at Columbia University. Talia,
(00:25):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hey, thanks for doing you guys.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Hell yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about the Columbia occupation.
I also want to briefly mention that there are a
lot of there's been a wave of occupations of campuses
across the country just right now. This is being recorded
on Wednesday night. By the time this goes up on
like Friday, a lot of the stuff we're going to
be saying is probably going to be at a date
(00:53):
because everything's moving really quickly. But I mean there's occupations
obviously like Columbia. There's like CSU, Humboldt, University of Texas,
at Austin, Ohio, State Harvard, Yale, Berkeley, some University in Italy,
Emerson Tuffs, MIT, NYU, City, University of New York, the
New Schools, University of Rochester, University of Pittsburgh USC, University
of Minnesota, University of Michigan, Vanderbilt UNC, Chapel Hill. I mean,
(01:16):
there's so many of these. By the time that this
goes up, there will be more of them. Yeah, it's
been wild. There's been a lot of I mean at
Humboldt there was a lot of very intense fighting with
the police. A bunch of kids occupied a building. They
beat the shit while Okay, that's going a bit too far,
but they barricaded it, kept the cops from coming in,
(01:37):
cops ran off of campus. So, lots of incredibly wild
stuff happening. Yeah, which I guess brings us to the
Gauza the I guess the original one, the first one
they got a lot of media attention, the Gauza Solidarity
Acampment at Columbia.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So, Telly, I wanted to ask you, so, how did
this sort of start and what's kind of been making
it different from the really pretty large number of other
Free Palestine anti genocide protests that have been on campuses
and off campuses for the past, Like time at six
seven months.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, well, I think the genesis of this was that
Columbia University, as we've seen in universities across the country,
suspended a number of pro Palestine advocacy student groups. They
were very slow to move their feet about targeted attacks
against students who were demonstrating for Palestine, including an incident
(02:36):
where someone was allegedly sprayed with a chemical irritant, or
people were sprayed with a chemical irritant by former IOF
soldiers who are also students here. And just this, you know,
building tension of there is a actual genocide occurring, and
(02:56):
universities are being forced to bend towards the people committing
the genocide instead of standing on the right side of history,
or they're actively choosing to do that too, because their
whole thing is not about actually educating people and preparing
them to be tomorrow's leaders and managers or baristas, but
(03:21):
to get people, you know, to give them money to
fill their coffers and portray this image of you know,
exceptionalism and elitism and whatnot. So that was the genesis.
And then on Tuesday night I got a text at
like eleven pm, I want to say, asking me if
(03:43):
I wanted to come cover a late night slash early
morning de occupation demo. And this was from someone I'd
never talked to before. I had no idea who it was,
but they said it was a Columbia and they said
it was late night, early morning. I thought I'd be
out of here at you know, ten am the next day,
and then, you know, standing there witnessing it all unfold,
(04:06):
it became pretty evident that that was not the case.
And I think the reason why this stands out is
because this is an elite university where you can't say, oh, well,
these are just dumb TikTok kids. These are kids who
have like the these are like adults who have you know,
they have incredible resumes, really high academic excellence. They got
(04:30):
into an extremely difficult school to get into, and they
are joining the ranks of the you know, frazzled fringe,
stinky anarchists and the silly kids who are being brainwashed
by TikTok. And they said, like, no, those people are right,
like this is bad and you need to disclose and
(04:52):
divest and we're not going to stop until you do.
And I think that that stance from a position of
fledge really shook things up. What followed also set a
tone of the university deciding to call the police and
claiming that this encampment was it posed a clear and
(05:15):
present danger to the safety of students on campus, which
you know, anyone who has spent any length of time
in or around the encampment can plainly see that that
is nonsensical. It's absurd. These are kids that are studying
on a lawn. But that choice of bringing the NYPD
in and having one hundred and eight students arrested by
(05:36):
the NYPD Strategic Response Group, which is their you know,
counter terrorism goon squad that violently represses protests pretty consistently,
to have them arrest one hundred nate people, including carrying
them out from by their arms and lengths and arresting
legal observers. You know that that was like this is
(05:57):
that it was an outsized response for something that was straightforward.
They're hanging out on a lawn. They have everything set
up to sustain within that space. They are not going
out and roaming around and you know, breaking things or
assaulting people or anything like that, and they're just using
this to call attention to their cause, which is divestment
(06:18):
from genocide and from you know, war profiteering and to
and the school's gentrification of Harlem and to you know,
a institute an academic boycott of Israel and Israeli campuses
that are in community with Colombia, like their satellite schools,
(06:40):
that bring the IOF soldiers to Colombia to commit harm
against students here. And you know, so these are these
are very basic asks and they were met with state force,
signed off by the president of the school. And seeing that,
I think is what provoked a lot of other schools
of like Columbia's doing it. Then we definitely got to
(07:03):
because you have a major elite institution taking this step
making clear that this is not just a cause that
you know, the scrappy little weirdos at the bottom like
me care about, you know. And so I think that's
what set it off. And the fact that they returned
(07:24):
they just took over the other lawn while while their
classmates were being processed after being arrested, they just took
over the other one and they're like, all right, we're
gonna set it up here was such a hilariously like
based move that it was like the defiance and the
(07:45):
determination was undeniable. And when you see a group like
with the students at Humboldt, where the cops with the
riot shields are trying to barge in and they're pushing
them back and they're screaming get the fuck out, and
they're bonking them over the head with the empty water jug.
When you see things like that, yeah, when you see
things like that, it's very like there is an energy
(08:10):
to this that has always been there but that has
not been very easily seen by the masses, and we're
now seeing it show its head of like, no, we're
not fucking around, like you need to listen to us.
We're tired of the song and dance game that you're
doing dismissing all of our valid concerns because we know
(08:32):
concretely and statistically that we are on the right side
of history, and we're going to make you listen and
trust that if you beat us up, we're coming back.
Like we're not going away. It doesn't scare us, which
is what the kids at a UT Austin were chanting.
I think when they brought the horses and the state
troopers in. It's like, we're not scared of you. And
(08:55):
that tone has permeated throughout the demonstration's four Palace to
New Liberation since in prior to October. But if you
don't follow the protests, or if you only go by
what the major news outlets are saying about them, you
don't see that tone. So this, for me, is not surprising.
This is a continuation of an energy that has not
(09:20):
ceased for upwards of six months. I think it's the
two hundred and first day of the genocide. So it's
not surprising for people who've paid attention. It's a relief
for kids who are here and who have been involved,
and who have been silenced and ignored and written off
this whole time. It's a very long answer.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I know that's a good one, though. I think it's
a It's great to have your perspective if someone who's
been on the ground. One thing I wanted to ask is, like, obviously,
this is a protest that its core is about state violence,
and it has predictably enough, been responded to with state violence,
And like you said that, people were really not swayed
(10:01):
by that. I wonder if you've seen people who kind
of had the opposite reaction, Like I kind of remember
the student protests that I have been involved in. I'm
just going to say that, and I can remember, like
the reaction by students when seeing that fellow students being
assaulted by the police was like, okay, fuck this, Like
you know, like Georgio Wah has this thing about like
(10:24):
when I see a real flesh and blood worker of
fighting is natural lending me the policeman. I don't have
to ask myself what side I'm on, Like did you
find the same thing with students where they were like okay,
I wasn't out here. And now I've seen the way
the university and the cops have responded to this, and
now I'm coming out because it's not okay.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
The encampment went up Wednesday and it was forcibly removed
with arrests on Thursday, I think, or was it Friday.
I don't remember. It was a long time ago. For me,
it's fine, But prior to the encampment being taken down,
(11:01):
the possibility of it provoked a significant response from the
student body here at Columbia to show up and rally
around the encampment all night. They did this march, this
daisy chain where they were chanting. The more you try
to silence us the louder we will be and disclose, divest,
(11:22):
We will not stop, We will not rest all night
around the encampment to keep it safe and to show
that they had larger support beyond the students who chose
to stay on the lawn at risk of being arrested.
After they were arrested, more students came onto the other
lawn and have continued to occupy that second lawn. So
(11:43):
absolutely it was a strissand effect. They tried to shut
it down, and it made people feel very strongly that
they need to show up and put themselves on the
line as well. And they also I think they saw
what I think it also showed them what the state
does and what the university does, and seeing it firsthand
(12:04):
eliminates a lot of the mystery that, you know, the
fear that can circulate of like the uncertainty of it.
Seeing what it looks like, they're like, oh whatever. And
now they're seeing, you know, videos of protesters being brutalized
on other campuses, and like I heard, someone told me
last night. They said that they overheard someone like talking
(12:25):
to another student on the lawn and they were like, oh,
so you a jail support They're like, yes, you're there,
Like it's it's this sort of they're gonna they're gonna
do what they're gonna do. We don't care, like because
these are the threat of violence. Physical harm, is a
threat to cease whatever it is that you're doing, of
(12:46):
academic harm. These are things that are trying to get
you to stop doing what you're doing. And when you
know that they are being deployed as tools and tactics,
you're not going to stop because they're not scary to you. Well,
what are you gonna do. You're gonna suspend me for
joining in a historic protest? Okay, see if I care,
you know, I think that's the energy for a lot
(13:07):
of students.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a second,
but I don't know, skip them and we'll be back
in however long it takes you to press the forward
button like six times and we are back. So, something
(13:32):
I wanted to ask about. I've been seeing a lot
of stuff floating around about the negotiations that are happening
between the university and the students. I want to know
what have you actually heard about these because the statements
that have been coming out don't seem to really be
matching anything else I've seen going on on the ground.
(13:53):
Do you know what's happening.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So the university has taken a stance of this is
clearing present danger, It is disruptive, it is harmful, et cetera.
That's because it's impeding with them building stairs and stadium
seating for the commencement that's happening in a couple of weeks.
So you know, it's like that's that's the clear and
(14:18):
present danger is that it's costly for them to have
to wait to complete this this setup. But my understanding
is that the students are very much holding their ground,
very firm, and their their demands are very reasonable. It's saying, like,
tell us where your money comes from, so we can
look into it and see that you're keeping your nose clean.
(14:41):
This isn't a difficult to ask. I think if you
ask to see my receipts, I could hill to you.
Although I'm not an elite university, but I'm also not
you know, profiting off of weapons manufacturing. And so the
university's stance is very much trying to kind of spook
(15:02):
them into quitting. And there was a statement released by
the president last night at four am, saying that the
students made some concessions, two of which were things that
they're already doing, one of which was an easy adjustment
that's not a concession, which was just making the camp
(15:22):
more ADA accessible and in compliance with FD and Y
regulations for fire safety, which I think would be crazy
if a fire broke out at this camp. Anyway, I
was a tangent. And then there was a thing saying
that they're going to be ending negotiations in forty eight
(15:43):
hours and with the students reported out from those negotiations
at the time was at the university at around midnight
threatened to call in the National Guard and to call
in the NYPD, and that shut down negotiations. And it
was only after they put out these wide spread calls
and thousands of people gathered on the lawn in support
(16:04):
of the encampment that that was changed and the university
agreed in writing to not call the YPD and to
not mobilized National Guard, which I don't think they have
the authority to do regardless, but it was this written
concession from the university, and their perspective of it was
(16:25):
that the students provided concessions, and I think it's kind
of it speaks to who each side is speaking to.
The students are speaking to the movement that they have
kind of shepherded into existence, and the university is speaking
to their donors and their trustees and the right wingers
(16:46):
who are having nuclear meltdowns on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
That's something else I wanted to sort of ask about,
because I it's kind of hard for me to a
sense of it. Like, Okay, so house Bike Johnson, who
is a utterly deranged session Zionist.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Yeah, like you mean the new Churchill mea god like
real weirdo, like anti evolution guy he's been he said,
he said that like he's going to go to.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Congress and call for the National Guard deplay, which also
does it make any sense because Congress I don't can't
do it either, But I think you're trying to get
like the governor, But like, what what do you think
of the actual odds of a national guard to point?
Because I've heard a lot of talk about it and
I can't gauge it at all.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So Hochel has said that that's not on the table,
I believe, and there's no interest from what I can
tell of the actual elected reps in calling in the
National Guard. There is interest from Eric Adams, who is
a former cop and basically still a cop, to use
the NYPD, and the NYPD has been very allergic to
(17:57):
when the National Guard comes out here because they want
to be the ones cracking skulls and being in charge
of brutalizing New Yorkers, and they take a great offense
when someone else comes in and does it for them,
So they wouldn't really be on board with the National
Guard mobilizing here either. The school doesn't have the authority
to do that. It's only the governor. The governor hasn't
(18:17):
made any indication, and Mike Johnson is doing conservative stunt work.
He was joined by Elise Staphonik, who is a conservative
and you know she regularly disseminates disinformation and inflammatory propaganda
to demonize unhoused people, migrants, queer people. So it's no
surprise that they're you know, banging this drum, which was
(18:40):
also pushed by Shy davidy or however he pronounce his name,
who's an assistant professor here, who attempted to hold a
rally in the center of the Cause of Solidarity encampment
with a slew of Zionists and his ID card was
deactivated and he found out in real time time in
front of a bunch of cameras that he called to
(19:03):
come watch him. It was It's one of those things
that you witness in real time that you feel like
you're you're living in a movie. But it was great.
And he had a nuclear tantrum and claimed that it
was because he wasn't safe on campus when he was
told that his protest was not safe for their students. So,
(19:24):
you know, I think it's we're seeing a lot of
rhetoric and a lot of saber rattling from the far right,
from conservatives, from people who have never had any kind
of support for Palestinians or for the cause of Palestinian liberation.
You know, Mike Johnson makes he receives over a quarter
million dollars from APAC. You know, these are these are
(19:47):
not people whose statements should be taken seriously in the
context of what is possible, what is reasonable, and what
is you know, reality to put it nicely, yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, I think a reason it's fascinating, like, at least
to me, Like I went to a fancy university, you know,
and engaged in plenty of including pro Palestine actions when
I was there. But a thing that I see, like
as a journalist now, is that the right wing and
wealthy folks generally seem to see that Ivy League universities,
particularly in the US, is like their safe space. And
(20:22):
I think the reason that they're so mad at this
is that they feel like it's not just that it's happening,
it's it's where it's happening, and like that that's called
them to have these massive tantrums like you've reported on.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, there's the there's there's it's it's all
hypocrisy for them because on the one hand, these are
liberal universities who are ushering in an era of DEI
and purple hair and queer kids. And then on the
other side, these are sacred spaces of learning and higher
education that no one should have access to unless they're
you know, grandparents are in the Arian Brotherhood. So it's
(20:56):
it's one of those things where it kind of depends
on the day about how they feel about really elite
campuses of higher learning. But it doesn't matter either way.
They don't care. They don't actually care. They just hate
the cause and will do anything they can to bring
it to a halt. But the DNA of this cause
(21:19):
is to keep going regardless of the efforts to stop it.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Right, And it wasn't so long ago that everyone was
up in arms. When I say everyone on the right
was up and arms about campus free speech, which is
something that seems have likely been forgotten in the last
couple of weeks. It's like, we've all seen videos in
Texas today, right of the DPS and state troopers and
horses and bikes. So they lived to missuse bikes. But yeah,
(21:45):
it's I guess the hipocoty is kind of the point
with those people.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, I mean, like Mike Johnson made his speech today
on the steps of the Low Library. He was talking
about how you know there was a repression of free
speech on campus, but then in the same breath he
said that and that's why I want to call in
the National Guard to eliminate this protest. Their argument is
that this protest is inherently anti Semitic because it rejects
(22:11):
the state of Israel and the genocide and apartheid that
the state has been doing since its inception and prior
to its inception of the Palestinian people, and in the IHRA.
In the IHRA definition of anti semitism, it is any
criticism of the state of Israel, which would include people
(22:32):
who are living in Israel criticizing their own government would
be labeled as anti Semitic. And they're trying to redefine
reality in real time by claiming that these students who
just don't want for mass death to be occurring and
they don't want their university to be responsible in facilitating that,
(22:54):
are somehow anti Semitic. Meanwhile, a large number of them
are Jews themselves, who you know they held satter at
the start of Passover.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, I think, uh maybe do you know bing One,
a photojournalist, Yeah, withtual friend being being took this photo,
which went viral on Twitter. I stories in the New
York Times of a Jewish graduate student just like sitting
on a folding chair being like, now I'm fine, I
don't feel unsafe here.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Oh yeah, I mean that's like, That's the thing is
that the people who feel quote unquote unsafe are also
the people who are known antagonizers of pro Palestine demonstrations.
These are the kids that bought like fart spray from
Amazon to spray on students who were demonstrating peacefully. These
(23:40):
are students who show up with giant flags outside of
Columbia University to antagonize people. They brought thick wooden poles
with flags fixed to them to a demonstration on Wall
Street the week prior to this encampment launching, and they
were antagonizing people, They were getting in, they were trying to,
you know, instigate arguments with people, and you know, they
(24:03):
were just kind of trying to incite, and then they
claim to be victims when people respond to their inciting behavior,
and it's very much like an abusive mentality that they have.
But in terms of like actual anti Semitism, all of that,
all of that rhetoric ends up being a distraction from
actual instances of anti Semitism. And the more that you
(24:25):
try to fuse the political ideology of Zionism with the
prejudice against Jewish people for being Jewish, the more you
try to fuse those together as one thing, like you know,
fusing Jewish identity to Zionism, the more you see instances
of anti Semitism actually antisemitism. So, if anything, like the
(24:46):
students who are coming in cheering on Israel and boasting
about the murderers of you know, tens of thousands of children,
the starvations and the displacements of millions people. The more
that they do that, the more that teaches people like, oh,
maybe all Jews are like that, maybe all Jews are bad.
(25:09):
And then I end up getting DMS from people photoshopping
my face into an oven calling for my death when
you know, I don't give a fuck about the state
of Israel. I don't give a fuck about any states,
you know. So it's just it's it's one of those
things like this is like they are they are planting
toxic seeds and then flipping out when they sprout.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Talking of toxic seeds, now is the time for some
marketing professionals to plant some toxic seeds in your mind.
As we take our second advertising break. All right, well
we're back. I hopeully haven't bought anything since we last spoke, Tylia.
(25:57):
I wanted to talk a little bit about a thing.
Thing that we've seen a lot is like this idea
of like the universe, and this happens at every protest
movement right like the state, the university, whatever. Will seek
to appoint people leaders and allow them to negotiate on
behalf of everyone, even if those people have not consented
to be negotiated for, and then they'll use that to
(26:18):
corrupt the movement, offer concessions that these particular people might want,
and in doing so kind of defang the original sort
of protest. Is that something that you've seen happening or
the university's tried to do to like divide people or
to kind of pull people out and appoint them as leaders.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
They've suspended the people that they believe to be primary
student organizers, but in terms of other divisions, they have
not been successful. These are students organizing with their classmates.
It's not possible for some outside group to infiltrate that
space because they are not students at this university. You know,
(26:57):
there's SJP chapters that students are members of in their schools,
but they are ultimately making the choices of what their
SJP chapter is doing. And you know a lot of
those SJP chapters have been suspended. So, you know, I
think in terms of the possibility of the university having
(27:17):
any sort of in to build some sort of op
is very low. The solidarity that we're seeing is I
don't think I've seen levels of people on the same
page and able to organize the literacy of it is
just phenomenal. You know, there's people who are just they're
(27:39):
all very like clearly knowledgeable about what it is that
they're organizing for, what the risks are, what the history
of the movement is, and they've spent a lot of
time learning those things to make sure that when they
decide to take a step forward, that they are doing
so fully informed and fully empowered. And trying to break
(27:59):
that down is something that has not been successful. And
we've seen that, you know, time and time again. They
have this chance. The more you try to silence us,
the louder we will be. And it's true, and these
institutions should probably start believing it because it would save
them a lot of trouble by you know, trying to
write this off is something that you know, people don't
(28:20):
know what they're doing or you know, whatever it is,
because they are they know everything. They know everything. These
are kids that all they do is study, you know,
like you're talking about huge nerds joining into a massive,
you know, decades long social movement. They've done the reading.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, talking people who's done the reading. I wanted to
talk about like faculty because I know a lot of
people who are faculty at university's listened to this podcast,
and I'm sure they're interested in, like how faculty have
been in solidarity with students there, how they can be
in solidarity with their own students. Have you seen that?
Have you seen faculty showing up?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Oh? Oh yeah. There was a massive faculty walk out
the other day between Barnard and Columbia faculty members. The
schools are kind of related, They're right across the street
from each other, and they have a lot of overlap.
Barnard's kind of under slightly under the university the Columbia umbrella,
but still has then president and things like that. And
(29:23):
there was a huge faculty walkout from both campuses that
gathered on the Low the steps of the Low Library,
and it was easily hundreds I would say, maybe like
five hundred people and that was it. That was it
Columbia and then NYU. The students set up an encampment
and they were surrounded by faculty who had linked arms
(29:43):
as a as a datacy chain around the encampment to
protect the students. So we're seeing a very real, you know,
multi layer of solidarity emerging in these spaces, And I
think it's you know, even if the even if professors
and faculty don't necess cssarily wholly agree or wholly understand,
they're not fully on the same wavelength as the student organizers. Necessarily,
(30:08):
they're still showing up on the basis of, like, these
students of the right to express their opinions, and they
should not be getting met with severe academic or state
discipline for doing so, because we've seen these same campuses
open their doors to people like Charlie Charlie Kirk and
Gavin McGinnis and you know, like white supremacists and white
(30:31):
nationalists who are able to go on their campuses and
spread hate and you know, right going disinformation and try
and recruit people through their you know, Young Republican School chapters.
Those chapters aren't being disbanded. You know, there's there isn't
an urgent rush to prevent the hosting of white nationalists
(30:53):
and white supremacists and you know, people who are.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Actually and intensely anti Semitic to an extreme, they're not
doing anything to actually like prevent those people from appearing
on campus. So I think that there's there's a lot
of layers to it, but there is a very strong
surge of faculty saying like, hey, this is this is
fucked up, and we're not We're not going to let
(31:20):
you think that this is just kids that you're picking on,
like you're also attacking your own staff, who you know,
has a longer relationship to.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
The university, has a you know, as hard as it
is as it is for these kids to get into
the school, it's harder to get hired to work here,
and so you know, we're seeing a lot of that.
There's also security people who were put in charge of
evicting students from their rooms at Barnard because Barnard has
chosen that students at Barnard who participated in this demo,
(31:51):
they weren't only going to be suspended temporarily, but evicted
from their housing, banned from campus, unable to access any
food or meal plans. Where is the Columbia students have
been suspended are still able to access housing and meal plans,
but they aren't allowed to go to class or any
campus events, which is fine because the only one that's
happening right now is the encampment. But you know, there
(32:12):
was there was a security person who sent me email
to the school at Barnard saying like I quit, like
this is this is inhumane, this is undignified, this is crazy.
You're giving these students fifteen minutes to uproot themselves from
their rooms. They might not have another place to go.
These you know, these might be students who don't have
a family's house nearby or you know, or the funds
(32:37):
or the means to live somewhere else and not worry
about the cost. You're you know, destabilizing people's lives in
a very severe way. And this this you know, security
person resigned. They're like this is nuts. So I think
there's there's the fact that just the the overall what
(32:58):
is of how these universities are responding has provided a
type of solidarity. And then there's also the fact that
a lot of people just generally understand that genocide is bad,
and it's gotten to a point where there's a lot
of rhetoric trying to obscure that and obfuskate like what
is genocide? And you know, israel isseroid t exist in
(33:21):
all this other like bullshit like propaganda and disinformation and
you know, fear mongering and all these things. And people
can see very clearly what the game is, and so
we're kind of at a pivotal moment for just common
reality and critical thinking. And I think that we're seeing
a lot of people show that the efforts to alter
(33:45):
what our established common reality is is not working.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
And this brings means is the thing I wanted to
close on, which is, where do you see this going?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Oh, I'm gonna need a minute on that one. I mean,
I mean, you know, we're at a very pivotal moment
in history. There's a lot of comparisons being made to
protests against the Vietnam War, and in those protests, there
was a lot of state violence, a lot of state repression,
but there was also a lot of people willing to
(34:17):
throw down in a very intense way. And you know,
we're already seeing levels to that that have very very
strong parallels, you know, with Lake Aaron Bushmell, which is
also a story that I ended up breaking. And you know, like,
(34:38):
so this is this is big, and I think that
right now, in the midst of it, it's hard to
guess what's going to happen two weeks from now or
six months from now. But I guarantee you we all
know what's going to happen fifty years from now. We're
all going to look at this fifty years from now
and be like, Wow, Stay was on some dumb shit.
(34:59):
Those parts were right, and it's good that they didn't
stop totally.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Yeah, I think that's a great place to end, Talia.
I wonder if you would like to let people know
where they can find you, where they can read your work,
how they can support your work.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Sure, so I mostly report live on Twitter, Talia otg
as in on the ground, and you can support me
by signing up on Patreon for hopefully more than five
dollars a month. Those those small donations cover the entirety
of my living and survival and allow for me to
(35:36):
do this work for the past four years. So I'm
like incredibly grateful. You know, people can support on Patreon.
They can also if you just want to do like
a one time heard you on the pod and loved it.
I have like a PayPal and a Venmo and all
that other shit on my Twitter account if people want
to send a couple couple bucks that way, And you know,
(35:57):
another way to support is send me tips if you
if you decide that you're gonna do something, feel free
to you know email and bio. I always I always want.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
To know Senda, all your all your tips, especially if
you're at Columbia University. Anything else do you want to
plug or me or anything else need to do before
we go.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I'm sorry that my voice sounds really like this. It's
I don't think i've I haven't gotten a lot of sleep,
and I hope that everything I said was coherent, even
though I was just giving you essay after essay after essay.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
It was fantastic. Thank you so much, Shallie.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Thank you so much, and thank you guys. It's something
I could say from everyone that they could happen here.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Fuck him, fuck him up, keep yeah, fucking get him.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
It could happen here as a production the cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at
coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
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Robert Evans
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