September 25, 2025 • 30 mins
Part 2 of Payne Lindsey's extended conversation with Kerri Rawson, the daughter of Dennis Rader.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK.
This was part two of a conversation between Payne Lindsay
and Carrie Rawson, the daughter of BTK aka Denis Raider.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So who is your dad?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Is he all these different things?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Is he whoever he's mirroring in the moment and then
he's something else at this point in time? Is he
all these things? Is he anybody? Or is he no one?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
People would say Dennis Raider's ninety percent denistrator and ten
percent BTK. The detective says he thinks he's ninety percent
BTK and ten percent denistrator, and I want to push
back and say, no, he's ninety percent my.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
Dad and just a little bit BTK.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I finally kind of come to this point where he's
both all the time. When I was growing up and
we would be out fishing, say the game warden's coming along,
you know, just to check make sure you're got your
permen and you're not over a limit, he would chain
like he always. My dad was really big on uniforms
and jobs with uniforms, like with the military ADT Compliance officer,
(01:07):
but he almost had a uniform to fish in, like
he would change his hat to walk the dog, or
change his shoes to go take out the garbage.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
It was like, I.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Don't know how intentional he was, but he had a
tendency to take it to the max so that he
looked exactly like you would expect somebody to look. And
then the game warden comes along and he changes his
posture changes, he strains up, he changes his voice. He's
very like respectful and yes sir or no sir. He
talks cot but he doesn't quite top cut because it's
a warden, so he talks wharden. I'm telling you he's
(01:36):
mirroring so like if he was sitting here with you,
he would sit like you because he's trying to make
you feel more comfortable. I don't think he feels comfortable
anywhere he is, so he's trying to blend in. Is
he Is it because he's not feeling comfortable or is
it because he wants everyone to just accepting face value.
This guy is fishing. This guy's being very respectful. You know,
(01:56):
I'm not aware that he has bondage stuff in his
car that he's going.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
To do stuff with after the kids go to bed.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
In the tent, Like he it's very careful, but you
see it, Like the arrest video, there's a clip of
him where they're pushing him and he's like they're trying
to get him to say it's BTK. He changes, like
I know him well enough, you can, like the voice changes,
just like the way he looks, like people have said,
like his eyes change.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
What in the world is that?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
It's those layers in those masks of like removing that
every everyday guy Midwest mister Dennis Rader mask and letting
you see BTK. I mean, the only person that survived
BTK is Kevin Bright and so really like here, my
dad had this secret for thirty one years.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
No one knew who he was.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The cops are pushing him for hours on that Friday
he was arrested. They know, I mean, they know it's him,
and he finally just lets it go and lets him know.
They're like say it.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
They had to push him so hard. They were like
telling him, we're going to tear up your house, like,
don't do this to Paula, don't do it to the kids.
They're like, we know you have souvenirs somewhere. You've got
to have at least Wagerly's driver's license, Like, where is
that Stefan was under the floorboards in our hallway? He
had a false bottom built underneath a storage drawer in
our hallway.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Do you think he feels bad of how he traumatized
your family?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
So they literally did use us to wedge.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's how you know that dad did care about us
and that we mattered to him, because that was what
they used to wedge him. And if he didn't care
about us, he wouldn't have cared about that house being
torn up. And he did care because he knew what
it would have done to my mom. But you can
see where he changes. There's video of him at the trial.
Now he's very uncomfortable. He's in his church suit. My
uncle's cared enough. They went and got his suits out
(03:46):
of our house and shoes so that he wouldn't just
be in prison gear. He's in court. He's uncomfortable because
he you know, he's being seen and being known. You know,
here's this big narcissist that wants to be known and
now people know he doesn't.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
He's not comfortable with it.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well, he's not in power anymore.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
No, he's not completely out of power. So he's trying
to maintain power by being in like that power suit.
And he's standing there in court and he knows he's
going to plead guilty, and he's expecting the judge to
just have him say I'm guilty. Maybe one time. We're
on the ten counts. Now, all those family are there,
all the detectives are there. He hates the detectives.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They know what he is, and just trying to understand
how somebody could do these things. This is kind of
a personal question. If you're uncomfortable, it's fine, But do
you know much about the sex life between your mother
and father.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
My dad's talked about like his sex life with my mom.
I mean, Douglass goes over at Ramslin's book and now
when he was arrested, one of the very first concerns was,
how do we been sexually abused?
Speaker 5 (04:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
And I know the pastor asked us ride away to
check to make sure we weren't in some like.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Horrific abuse situation that we were covering up. Yep, what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
My dad has even said it was just like a
normal sexual relationship, Like he says in Ramslan's book, he
would never hurt my mom or somebody like her, that
he loved her and that he could have a normal, giving,
normal relationship with somebody like my mom.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
But these sort of bondage fantasies and stuff like that,
fetishes that never made its way into the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
As far as I know.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
No, Now there's some debate. My dad claims in Ramslin's
book that my mom caught him twice playing his bondage
stuff in the house. He didn't think she was going
to come home, and she came home because he said
he liked the mayor, the full mayor in our bathroom
and in our hallway. Now, my dad is saying this
on record at least a Ramsland, probably before. Okay, so
(05:52):
it's so well known that it's even recreated in mind Hunter.
Now I haven't seen the scene. So I'm finding out
in sixteen that's my mom saw him twice and almost
divorced him, or threaten a divorce. It's what my dad claims.
So I'm finding out in sixteen. So I call my
mom and she just says.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
No, no, no, no, no, that never happened.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Do you believe that?
Speaker 5 (06:14):
I mean, my mom's the truth teller.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But like dad says that there was a book my
mom got like self help book trying to figure out
what was wrong with my dad and help him. And
he says that other people back that up too, that
like that she had talked to some friends or something
about what about trying to figure out why does this
guy have this weird feedationian like why is he in
(06:38):
women's clothing?
Speaker 5 (06:39):
And how can I help him? I know the book?
It was like on the.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Top of my bookshelf when I was a kid, and
I got in trouble for finding it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
What was it?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Just something I would have to find? The title is
in Ramslin's book. I know that that book exists, So
does the rest of the story exist?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Who knows?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
And my dad's a pathological liar, so like what is true?
But he's so honest about other things? Is anybody going
to push my mom to find out?
Speaker 5 (07:04):
It doesn't really matter?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I mean, are you still going to jump from this
man in women's clothing to BTK? And the thing is,
in hindsight, it's really easy to sit over here and say, well,
he had all these tendencies, or he spelled this way,
or but like a lot of the stuff the police knew,
they never released until after he was arrested. You know,
there was this puzzle he sent this weird word search
(07:26):
puzzle thing in one of his communications in two thousand
and four. Far as I know, that was not released
publicly until after he was arrested. And I after he
was arrested, I went and I printed it off, and
I swear I found my address in it and some initials. Now,
am I finding things in there that he didn't even
intend to be in there? In hindsight, possibly as far
(07:47):
as I know, that was not released or I had
never seen it.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
I don't think it was released before after murdered Nancy Fox.
He used to pay phone.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
He was actually in his ADT truck park there, and
there's a very quick audio recording of him calling in
and he called in a homicide, which is kind of
a weird word for a non cop to use, but
he's trying to talk cop, right because he's reporting it.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
That recording was played over and over. Far as I know,
I did not hear it until the night of his arrest.
I was trying to alibi him. I went digging into crimes.
I found crimes that weren't even his. Everything got me
really messed up, and I found the recording. I listened
to it and I said, that's Dad. But I wasn't
home and oh for So there's like this lingering question
(08:34):
if I had been home and oh four and like
because I was into like detective stuff and growing up
and all of that with that, like would I have
been trying to solve this crime at home? There's that
question of like what would I have known? And then
what would have happened in my home if we had
like found out, would.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
We be alive? I can't answer that.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
What's this with these frog figurines?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So after my dad played guilty in June of five,
somehow Larry Hadiberg, who was a local witch Ta k
TV journalist, was able to call him in the president interviewing. Now,
this was very rare. There hasn't been much access to
my dad. Somehow Larry was able to make this phone
call to my dad. He's telling Larry that there was
a demon frog in his brain named Bader Batteer that
(09:23):
was making him commit these murders.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
You know, five, I knew it was bullshit. Now it's
twenty nineteen. I'm finally home in Wichita. I'm sitting down
with Larry for the first time in my life, and
Susan Peters. They're working for PBS KPTS. They had covered
all the btks, they had covered the trial. They were
great people to work with. And Larry's bringing up that
he interviewed my dad and he brought up the frock.
(09:48):
So I'm sitting there on camera and I said, the
frog is bullshit, Larry. You know, maybe I said crab
because I'm trying not to cuss on camera. And then,
you know, we go on with the interview. My dad
has a TV. He saw that interview, he saw my
other interviews. He heard me on the radio, so he
hears me calling him out on the frog. He's hearing
(10:10):
that in February of nineteen and a few weeks later
in the mail, I get an eight x ten photo
I can show you of a demon frog and at
the bottom he writes.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Batar, this is from your dad to you.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yeah, because one he knows the frog's BS. He knows
that I know the frog's BS. So one, he's kind
of proud of me for knowing that it's BS. And
two he's just reminding me to remember him.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Why is he making all this stuff up?
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Because he likes the yank people's chains this way, he's
not helpful.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Like literally Douglas talks about they went to Son of
Sam to find out about BTK, and Son of Sam
was not bored. He wasn't interested, and then said, look,
btk's mentioning you. And they got Son of Sam to
talk for hours, right, and to try to help them
develop these profiles. My dad is not helpful. They don't
go to my dad as far as I know, because
he likes to yank everybody's chains. Like I've talked to
(11:04):
a detective and he said, after Ramslm's book came out,
they had to go clear a few more cases that
were close enough to my dad and brought up in
the book unsolved cases, and he's like, we had to
go out there and talk to your dad. Of course,
it makes my dad feel empowered and remembered and important.
And they hate it, you know, they don't want Nobody
wants to deal with my dad. He's such a jerk,
(11:25):
Like he's not helpful. I mean that's why I like
I had start cutting him out of my life. It
was like I was getting stronger, like aus I got
to know who he was and this other side, and
I started speaking up, and I was becoming stronger as
a person and surviving this, not just surviving, but starting
to really start getting my life back. I was getting
strong enough to push back against him and call out
(11:47):
his bullshit. And so I'm on a podcast, you know,
we're talking about serious things, but also that dark humor
and just releasing and like, damn, look what I've survived.
So I'm prob calling him names than just being flipping
being myself. When one of his minions, one of his
fan clubs, saw it, they called my father at the prison.
(12:09):
They said, she's she's in Orlando. Now she's moved. I
hadn't holding my head moved, and she's over here saying
these things about you. And so he literally is trying.
My dad's trying to get a hold of me. Now
is he trying to get a hold of me because
he's worried about me? Or is it because he's a
narcissistic stalker. So he has these minions then reach out
to me through email and social media, like a handful
(12:31):
over the last two or three years they'll write me
and say, well, we talked to your dad.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
He's a really nice guy.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
We don't know what your deal is, Like they literally
just invade like my Instagram.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
That is ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
It's absolutely ridiculous because he uses them. Their serial killer
like minions, like fan club women that get attached to
my dad. He's using them. He's very well known for
like the murder black market now with memorabilia. I mean
it's like a back alley thing. These serial killers and
well known criminals they like do art or they'll sell
(13:07):
like like there's like on Instagram there's like these murder
museums starves and you can pay hundreds of dollars for
these drawings from these guys. So there's a Son of
Sam law that people like my father cannot profit off
of his murders, right, and it's there to protect the
victims and protect families like mine. But then like you
talk to these art dealers and stuff and they're like, well,
(13:29):
we're just trying to make a living. I'm like, you're
literally selling like a sheet of paper that's got somebody's
pubes on it.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Like why is this a thing?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
So my father like in fifteen was like, well, if
you want to make some money, he's like, you can
help me with this.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
So like literally he skirted the son of Sam laws
for six years.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Is he actually skirting the law? Is he just breaking
the law? Sounds like he's just breaking the law.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
I mean, he's legit breaking the law, but nobody's really
stopped it. He sent sweatpants in the last few years
that were stamped raider for the prison. He sent gold fillings.
Now why does he even have his gold fillings? Or
is he the one actually sending him? Like is there
a black market at the prison? So, I mean it's
been in the news, you know, I've talked about it,
The Eagles looked into it. This has been getting worse
(14:16):
and worse, so I started talking to some detectives about it,
and I started cutting on. My last letter to my
dad was in the fall of seventeen because my dad
was trying to insert himself into my media and trying
to insert myself. He wanted to do like an art
book with me, and he wanted to be part of
my book, and I couldn't trust him anymore. I couldn't
trust anything I wrote him because journalists were contacting him
(14:38):
or contacting me to try to get to him. So
I didn't mean for that to be my last letter.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
It just was.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Now it's like Spring of twenty. I just got out
of the hospital.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I had COVID pneumonia in March of twenty. It's like
April of twenty twenty. I'm like in bed rest recovering
from COVID. Of course he doesn't know this, and I'm
finding out on Instagram. Contacted me that somebody sent my
dad the front page of my book. Now, my dad's
not allowed my book, so if somebody tried to send
my book, the mail room at the prison would stop it.
(15:10):
But somebody tore out the front page of my book
that I had autographed, and there aren't that many out there,
and he had done a BTK autograph. He's not legally
allowed to be doing that. So he's known for this
BTK autograph that he sent to the media in the seventies.
They used it to authenticate his work in the two
thousand and four, he's well known for this autograph.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Does that make you angry?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I was so just torn up and mad and just disappointed,
just disappointed in the man I knew and my father
that we had done all this work.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
We were communicating.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It was just Dad and me again, and then to
find out he's autographing my book with his upside down
b that are like boobs with a T and they're
like a penis on my book, so like a contacted detective.
And I was like, I'm done now. I didn't sign anything,
I didn't do any official but he took care of it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
He's had a long time sitting in prison to do
some introspection, I would imagine. But doing things like signing
pictures of girl's dead bodies doesn't give me the impression
that he cares more about why or how he did this,
just that he did it at all.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
I mean that's a sign of no remorse and horrible
behavior on as part. If he ever wanted any sort
of even letter relationship with me, Like, that's not showing
any sort of growth, any sort of change, any sort
of I'm sorry, that's just him being a dickhead.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
That's being him being BTK.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I almost feel like once he became outed as the
BTK killer, it almost took over or something. Once the
secret was exposed. Maybe since he no longer had to
suppress it, his entire being is more overcome by it.
It at least appears that way based on the way
he's communicating about it.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Yeah, but he's.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Still protective, Like he won't talk crime with me. He
won't talk BTK, doesn't like the acronym with.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Me, doesn't want to it seems like he's ashamed of
it around you.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Well, he's protective of me, right, But then he wants
me to remember him, like like on my birthday or
mother's days thinking about me or is he wanted me
to remember him.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
So he's making me a carter. He's sending me a
creepy photo.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I'm not a photo but a drawing of like these
these sea creatures with these gaping teeth. He calls himself
the Kansas Pisces. His zodiac is Pisces, and he got
into all these like zodiac stuff now astrology, and he
calls himself the Kansas Pisces, and he calls it like
the canvas with the c canvas.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
Cave, his BTK cave.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
So like after Hamaselon's book came out, she let him
make book plates. So again, I literally have a photo
of it. He drew a bondage rack like it's literally
an upside down bondy track because he said an oh
for his last murder, he thought about hanging her upside down.
So he draws this Bondwe track in black and white.
Somebody photo copies several of these for him. Who is
(18:11):
this person?
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
He's coloring them, he's numbering them and autographing them, and
they're going out to people that bought Ramslun's book. So like,
finally somebody came to me from the media and said,
can you vouch him vet this for your dad? Because
sometimes people come with to me with something and say,
is this your dad's? And usually if I know, I know,
they just want that like someone that knows knows.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
But instead of spending that same amount of time and
effort and energy into making amends with you guys, he's
relishing in all the evil things that he did to
a degree, Duode.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Didn't notice it was a bondie track, Like that's that's
insane to me, did the criminologist?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Somebody's letting stuff slip through here?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I mean, right, And so I've been progressing. I've been
resting on that.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Why it's like the girl that has no criminology training
finding the bondage track, Like, it's not really awesome that
I know my dad in that way.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Now, did a part of you want to go back
to just the good times you have with your dad?
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Is that what you were trying to do by communicating
with him?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
I mean early on after his arrest, I started writing
him within like the first week. We knew my dad
was guilty early on, and so we basically started a
writing campaign letting him know, like that we knew he
was guilty. Literally, like there's letters that I've shared where
I'm saying, like, you know you're guilty, Please take this
guilty plea for like the community, the victim's famili's, our family,
(19:41):
stop putting us through all this hell, you know, man
up and take the plea. So, from March of five
until when he pled in June of five, we were
all on this writing campaign, my brother, my mom, me,
you know, old friends, people in church, lots of family.
And then after he played guilty, my mom never wrote
him again.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Why she was done? Did a part of you feel
like you wanted to make it better?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Somehow?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I wanted to help him That back and forth it's
got to be just so draining and frustrating.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Yeah, you just want to die.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
It's almost like you can't let go of that feeling
that you are my Dad.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I do love you, I do want you to be okay.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I want to understand how you got this way, But
at the same time, I'm so mad. And so what
is the two major feelings you have? Like going back
and forth between.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
You just have to find that balance and try not
to stait here too long. But you have to find
that balance. And so day to day, you know, I
lived my life and I'm a mom, I'm a writer,
an advocate. I try to find something good. I had
to get to a point of like coming to terms
with what dad was, coming to terms with who I
am in context with my dad, and then after therapy
(20:58):
in twenty fifteen, figuring out what the hell was going
to do this and then seeing that it was doing
some good me talking and knowing that there was some
good that could come out of this, and then I
could almost I can't reset what my dad did.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I can't give people their lives back.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
When you've told people who you are and who your
father is, have you seen them change the way they
act towards you, or just even their facial expressions?
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Usually get that like oh my god, face, like what
am I going to do with this now? I mean
I literally was just on an interview with BBC Radio
and she didn't know My interviewer didn't know my background story,
and so she's just sitting there saying like like almost,
oh my god's why you're on the interview. You know
now you're not in person with that, but you're kind
of like you came to interview me, so you should
(21:46):
be able to deal. There's just like this, you have
to decide who to tell and when. So literally, like
as I'm traveling for work, I'm traveling to discuss my father,
discuss my journey, advocate for people like me to heal
to advanced knowledge. Right, I should be proud of how
far I've come. I should be proud of who I am.
(22:08):
I should be proud that I have this book. But
do I really want to tell? Like you're sitting next
to sing and airplane, they're like, what do you do
for work? Do you tell them that you're writing? So like, literally,
I met the Salan last week, You're chatting what do
you do for work?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
I'm a writer? What if you write do you answer that?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
What would you answer be?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
It just really depends on the situation, Like if I
can like if I can get away with not saying,
you know, I wrote a book called A Serial Killer's Daughter.
I try not to like literally, the lady that did
my names, we chatted for two hours about everything else,
and then she went in to connect with me on
Instagram and I said, just google me. You know, that's
(22:48):
like my go to answer sometimes with people still is
just google me and you'll find me in thirty seconds,
because it's easier than try and explain who I am
and who my dad is and what I do.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Is it strange at all that this is your work? Now?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's not the life I would have chose at all,
you know, a lot of coming back to life and
finding myself and what's trying to figure out what am
I going to do with this? Like this isn't obviously
I didn't choose this life. I didn't choose my father
to be this. I would do anything for him not
to be b TK. I would do anything to just
have my dad, like to wipe everything out he did
and just have my dad and just be normal and
(23:26):
nobody knew.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
Who I was. This is reality.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
A lot of my trauma therapy, a lot of dealing
with things, was coming to terms with it, Like I
didn't even know I was a writer. I mean, I
had done like ap English in high school. I went
to the same high school as my parents, graduated in
ninety six. Then I was pre vet, so I was
the science track. I ended up with a life science
degree elementary education degree. I had no idea I was
a writer, and then these people came along and they said,
(23:52):
we think you naturally have some gift for writing, and
then you can hone it. Writing ended up being the
thing that could reach those broken and shattered places in
me that nothing else could, that therapy couldn't. So in
twenty fifteen, unfortunately, because I was trying to get everything
so right and accurate for that interview, I basically unleashed
(24:12):
all the stuff I had not dealt with with my dad,
like crime scene photos, details of these people, these victims,
faces of my father, and I had like unleashed all
of it, and I was falling apart with my night
terrors were horrible. I couldn't sleep. I was getting the
images of these dead women in my head.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
What would you see?
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Literally like I.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Had looked at the crime scene photos and now like
it was like seared like trauma in my brain of
like the woman strangled like.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Possibly with like the ties still harder.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Blood Like I literally had like Nancy Fox's face stuck
in my head. And so I had to go back
to trauma therapy. I had seen the trauma therapist in
O seven, and I went back in fifteen, literally almost
like crawling into her office. And when I went in
and O seven, I barely could say BTK.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
I was like.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Whispering BTK to her. Why I was fearful of my
dad for two years? I was scared to death of
him realistically. I mean, I know he's in solitary. I
know he's in maximum security. I know he's an old man,
even when he was sixty. I know he wasn't ever
going to hurt me. But you've got to realize, like
when you've been in a situation with somebody in like
(25:26):
my dad and your survivor of like verbal and emotional abuse,
you can go back and.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Be that four year old with a scary dad.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
But now like you find out so much more so
you're like, I mean literally, like I'm showing you the
cover of my book, like that photo sets me off.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
How do you feel when you see that, Well.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
It's his arrest photo.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
So he's really mad and sullen because he's been interviewed
for like thirty hours and he's in his prison orange
and he's pissed as hell because he's been caught and
he has at Hanne's sleep And they interviewed him for
thirty hours after he was arrested, and then they told
him they were done with him.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
They had everything they needed. He confessed and they took
a photo of me.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
When you see that picture, do you see your dad?
Speaker 5 (26:10):
No, this is my dad. That's my college graduation.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
And how do you feel when you see that picture?
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Just happy, like happy memory.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I mean it hurts now, it hurts to seem like that,
but I mean literally, I'm putting decorating the Christmas tree
with him. I'm putting an angel on the tree. When
I was lily, he has me lifted up. It was
like we took turns every year. I got two one
year and my brother in the next.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Both pictures of your dad, but you feel differently about.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Both of them.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Realistically, this is my dad. But literally I was just
in trauma therapy of like a month ago in Orlando
now where I live, and she's reading my book to
help me, and she set me off with this photo
and we ended up talking for an hour. We ran
down like BTK poles because literally, and then I realized
that photo had triggered me. So now watch what am
(26:57):
I gonna do. I'm gonna flip it. This is my
book and I don't like it's sitting there on my
bookshelf with dad. I didn't have any choice. They put
him on the cover. So I'm literally flipping it right
now so.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I don't have to look at it.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
But it's better than being torn up inside and questioning
everything and questioning yourself and questioning reality and dying. So
it's either dying inside or this.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
So it's this, And what is this helping? Hopefully?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I mean it's hard to sit here and talk and
you're probably like, why is she doing this to herself?
I mean it helps me to talk about it gets
some of that out. Like I'm literally, you know, if
I go back into trauma therapy, I'm and be like,
well I cried at this moment and she's like, Okay,
well there's something in.
Speaker 5 (27:41):
There we got to dig at.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
But I've been told by so many people I'm helping.
I want to help. I've always wanted to help I
wanted to help my dad, right, I'm like the little
girl wanting to help my dad not be angry, like
I'm the opposite of him.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, I think that's what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
So I it helps me and helps other people.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You said earlier that you think that your dad was
ninety percent Dennis Raider ten percent BTK. Do you feel
like once the news broke and there became fan clubs
and different weird stuff like that, that it maybe further
empowered the BTK in Dennis Raider to where he almost
(28:26):
became more proud of it.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
I mean when I talked to detectives, they're like, the
worst thing you can do to somebody like my dad
is not talk about it.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Not talk to him, not give.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Him any power, not ask him anything, not come to
him with anything, but just completely not talk about him
like he doesn't exist. That's the worst thing you can
do to my father, and probably the best thing you
can do. And so, like when we're talking about the
word monster or something, these guys become bigger than life
because of all the lore and the legend around him
and the massive amount of impact they've had in the
(28:58):
decades of people that have studied them and made careers
around them, and you know, trying to solve these things
and figure out what's wrong with these guys and how
can we stop and quicker like they become these these big, huge,
bigger than life things. But are we still applying that
same sort of rigid psychopathy profile to the guys we're
trying to catch now or are we looking for the
(29:21):
d'angelos and the raiders?
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Are we I don't know, maybe somebody else can answer that.
Do they still exist? Are they still active?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
And are we looking for the right or are we
looking for that narrow list of what a psychopath is?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Thanks again to Carrie Rawson for reaching out and being
such a pivotal part of this show. You can find
her books, including A Serial Killer's Daughter and Breaking Free
at Barnes and Noble or wherever you get your books.
And remember to listen to the main series of Monster
BTK and even more bonus content and early and completely
(30:02):
ad free on iHeart Truecrime Plus. Thanks for listening.
Welcome back to this special bonus episode of Monster BTK.
This was part two of a conversation between Payne Lindsay
and Carrie Rawson, the daughter of BTK aka Denis Raider.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
So who is your dad?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Is he all these different things?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Is he whoever he's mirroring in the moment and then
he's something else at this point in time? Is he
all these things? Is he anybody? Or is he no one?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
People would say Dennis Raider's ninety percent denistrator and ten
percent BTK. The detective says he thinks he's ninety percent
BTK and ten percent denistrator, and I want to push
back and say, no, he's ninety percent my.
Speaker 5 (00:44):
Dad and just a little bit BTK.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I finally kind of come to this point where he's
both all the time. When I was growing up and
we would be out fishing, say the game warden's coming along,
you know, just to check make sure you're got your
permen and you're not over a limit, he would chain
like he always. My dad was really big on uniforms
and jobs with uniforms, like with the military ADT Compliance officer,
(01:07):
but he almost had a uniform to fish in, like
he would change his hat to walk the dog, or
change his shoes to go take out the garbage.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
It was like, I.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Don't know how intentional he was, but he had a
tendency to take it to the max so that he
looked exactly like you would expect somebody to look. And
then the game warden comes along and he changes his
posture changes, he strains up, he changes his voice. He's
very like respectful and yes sir or no sir. He
talks cot but he doesn't quite top cut because it's
a warden, so he talks wharden. I'm telling you he's
(01:36):
mirroring so like if he was sitting here with you,
he would sit like you because he's trying to make
you feel more comfortable. I don't think he feels comfortable
anywhere he is, so he's trying to blend in. Is
he Is it because he's not feeling comfortable or is
it because he wants everyone to just accepting face value.
This guy is fishing. This guy's being very respectful. You know,
(01:56):
I'm not aware that he has bondage stuff in his
car that he's going.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
To do stuff with after the kids go to bed.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
In the tent, Like he it's very careful, but you
see it, Like the arrest video, there's a clip of
him where they're pushing him and he's like they're trying
to get him to say it's BTK. He changes, like
I know him well enough, you can, like the voice changes,
just like the way he looks, like people have said,
like his eyes change.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
What in the world is that?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
It's those layers in those masks of like removing that
every everyday guy Midwest mister Dennis Rader mask and letting
you see BTK. I mean, the only person that survived
BTK is Kevin Bright and so really like here, my
dad had this secret for thirty one years.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
No one knew who he was.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The cops are pushing him for hours on that Friday
he was arrested. They know, I mean, they know it's him,
and he finally just lets it go and lets him know.
They're like say it.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
They had to push him so hard. They were like
telling him, we're going to tear up your house, like,
don't do this to Paula, don't do it to the kids.
They're like, we know you have souvenirs somewhere. You've got
to have at least Wagerly's driver's license, Like, where is
that Stefan was under the floorboards in our hallway? He
had a false bottom built underneath a storage drawer in
our hallway.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Do you think he feels bad of how he traumatized
your family?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
So they literally did use us to wedge.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
That's how you know that dad did care about us
and that we mattered to him, because that was what
they used to wedge him. And if he didn't care
about us, he wouldn't have cared about that house being
torn up. And he did care because he knew what
it would have done to my mom. But you can
see where he changes. There's video of him at the trial.
Now he's very uncomfortable. He's in his church suit. My
uncle's cared enough. They went and got his suits out
(03:46):
of our house and shoes so that he wouldn't just
be in prison gear. He's in court. He's uncomfortable because
he you know, he's being seen and being known. You know,
here's this big narcissist that wants to be known and
now people know he doesn't.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
He's not comfortable with it.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well, he's not in power anymore.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
No, he's not completely out of power. So he's trying
to maintain power by being in like that power suit.
And he's standing there in court and he knows he's
going to plead guilty, and he's expecting the judge to
just have him say I'm guilty. Maybe one time. We're
on the ten counts. Now, all those family are there,
all the detectives are there. He hates the detectives.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They know what he is, and just trying to understand
how somebody could do these things. This is kind of
a personal question. If you're uncomfortable, it's fine, But do
you know much about the sex life between your mother
and father.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
My dad's talked about like his sex life with my mom.
I mean, Douglass goes over at Ramslin's book and now
when he was arrested, one of the very first concerns was,
how do we been sexually abused?
Speaker 5 (04:53):
You know?
Speaker 4 (04:53):
And I know the pastor asked us ride away to
check to make sure we weren't in some like.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Horrific abuse situation that we were covering up. Yep, what
I mean.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
My dad has even said it was just like a
normal sexual relationship, Like he says in Ramslan's book, he
would never hurt my mom or somebody like her, that
he loved her and that he could have a normal, giving,
normal relationship with somebody like my mom.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
But these sort of bondage fantasies and stuff like that,
fetishes that never made its way into the bedroom.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
As far as I know.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
No, Now there's some debate. My dad claims in Ramslin's
book that my mom caught him twice playing his bondage
stuff in the house. He didn't think she was going
to come home, and she came home because he said
he liked the mayor, the full mayor in our bathroom
and in our hallway. Now, my dad is saying this
on record at least a Ramsland, probably before. Okay, so
(05:52):
it's so well known that it's even recreated in mind Hunter.
Now I haven't seen the scene. So I'm finding out
in sixteen that's my mom saw him twice and almost
divorced him, or threaten a divorce. It's what my dad claims.
So I'm finding out in sixteen. So I call my
mom and she just says.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
No, no, no, no, no, that never happened.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Do you believe that?
Speaker 5 (06:14):
I mean, my mom's the truth teller.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
But like dad says that there was a book my
mom got like self help book trying to figure out
what was wrong with my dad and help him. And
he says that other people back that up too, that
like that she had talked to some friends or something
about what about trying to figure out why does this
guy have this weird feedationian like why is he in
(06:38):
women's clothing?
Speaker 5 (06:39):
And how can I help him? I know the book?
It was like on the.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Top of my bookshelf when I was a kid, and
I got in trouble for finding it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
What was it?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Just something I would have to find? The title is
in Ramslin's book. I know that that book exists, So
does the rest of the story exist?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Who knows?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
And my dad's a pathological liar, so like what is true?
But he's so honest about other things? Is anybody going
to push my mom to find out?
Speaker 5 (07:04):
It doesn't really matter?
Speaker 4 (07:06):
I mean, are you still going to jump from this
man in women's clothing to BTK? And the thing is,
in hindsight, it's really easy to sit over here and say, well,
he had all these tendencies, or he spelled this way,
or but like a lot of the stuff the police knew,
they never released until after he was arrested. You know,
there was this puzzle he sent this weird word search
(07:26):
puzzle thing in one of his communications in two thousand
and four. Far as I know, that was not released
publicly until after he was arrested. And I after he
was arrested, I went and I printed it off, and
I swear I found my address in it and some initials. Now,
am I finding things in there that he didn't even
intend to be in there? In hindsight, possibly as far
(07:47):
as I know, that was not released or I had
never seen it.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
I don't think it was released before after murdered Nancy Fox.
He used to pay phone.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
He was actually in his ADT truck park there, and
there's a very quick audio recording of him calling in
and he called in a homicide, which is kind of
a weird word for a non cop to use, but
he's trying to talk cop, right because he's reporting it.
Speaker 5 (08:11):
Now.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
That recording was played over and over. Far as I know,
I did not hear it until the night of his arrest.
I was trying to alibi him. I went digging into crimes.
I found crimes that weren't even his. Everything got me
really messed up, and I found the recording. I listened
to it and I said, that's Dad. But I wasn't
home and oh for So there's like this lingering question
(08:34):
if I had been home and oh four and like
because I was into like detective stuff and growing up
and all of that with that, like would I have
been trying to solve this crime at home? There's that
question of like what would I have known? And then
what would have happened in my home if we had
like found out, would.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
We be alive? I can't answer that.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
What's this with these frog figurines?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So after my dad played guilty in June of five,
somehow Larry Hadiberg, who was a local witch Ta k
TV journalist, was able to call him in the president interviewing. Now,
this was very rare. There hasn't been much access to
my dad. Somehow Larry was able to make this phone
call to my dad. He's telling Larry that there was
a demon frog in his brain named Bader Batteer that
(09:23):
was making him commit these murders.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
You know, five, I knew it was bullshit. Now it's
twenty nineteen. I'm finally home in Wichita. I'm sitting down
with Larry for the first time in my life, and
Susan Peters. They're working for PBS KPTS. They had covered
all the btks, they had covered the trial. They were
great people to work with. And Larry's bringing up that
he interviewed my dad and he brought up the frock.
(09:48):
So I'm sitting there on camera and I said, the
frog is bullshit, Larry. You know, maybe I said crab
because I'm trying not to cuss on camera. And then,
you know, we go on with the interview. My dad
has a TV. He saw that interview, he saw my
other interviews. He heard me on the radio, so he
hears me calling him out on the frog. He's hearing
(10:10):
that in February of nineteen and a few weeks later
in the mail, I get an eight x ten photo
I can show you of a demon frog and at
the bottom he writes.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
Batar, this is from your dad to you.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yeah, because one he knows the frog's BS. He knows
that I know the frog's BS. So one, he's kind
of proud of me for knowing that it's BS. And
two he's just reminding me to remember him.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Why is he making all this stuff up?
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Because he likes the yank people's chains this way, he's
not helpful.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Like literally Douglas talks about they went to Son of
Sam to find out about BTK, and Son of Sam
was not bored. He wasn't interested, and then said, look,
btk's mentioning you. And they got Son of Sam to
talk for hours, right, and to try to help them
develop these profiles. My dad is not helpful. They don't
go to my dad as far as I know, because
he likes to yank everybody's chains. Like I've talked to
(11:04):
a detective and he said, after Ramslm's book came out,
they had to go clear a few more cases that
were close enough to my dad and brought up in
the book unsolved cases, and he's like, we had to
go out there and talk to your dad. Of course,
it makes my dad feel empowered and remembered and important.
And they hate it, you know, they don't want Nobody
wants to deal with my dad. He's such a jerk,
(11:25):
Like he's not helpful. I mean that's why I like
I had start cutting him out of my life. It
was like I was getting stronger, like aus I got
to know who he was and this other side, and
I started speaking up, and I was becoming stronger as
a person and surviving this, not just surviving, but starting
to really start getting my life back. I was getting
strong enough to push back against him and call out
(11:47):
his bullshit. And so I'm on a podcast, you know,
we're talking about serious things, but also that dark humor
and just releasing and like, damn, look what I've survived.
So I'm prob calling him names than just being flipping
being myself. When one of his minions, one of his
fan clubs, saw it, they called my father at the prison.
(12:09):
They said, she's she's in Orlando. Now she's moved. I
hadn't holding my head moved, and she's over here saying
these things about you. And so he literally is trying.
My dad's trying to get a hold of me. Now
is he trying to get a hold of me because
he's worried about me? Or is it because he's a
narcissistic stalker. So he has these minions then reach out
to me through email and social media, like a handful
(12:31):
over the last two or three years they'll write me
and say, well, we talked to your dad.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
He's a really nice guy.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
We don't know what your deal is, Like they literally
just invade like my Instagram.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
That is ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
It's absolutely ridiculous because he uses them. Their serial killer
like minions, like fan club women that get attached to
my dad. He's using them. He's very well known for
like the murder black market now with memorabilia. I mean
it's like a back alley thing. These serial killers and
well known criminals they like do art or they'll sell
(13:07):
like like there's like on Instagram there's like these murder
museums starves and you can pay hundreds of dollars for
these drawings from these guys. So there's a Son of
Sam law that people like my father cannot profit off
of his murders, right, and it's there to protect the
victims and protect families like mine. But then like you
talk to these art dealers and stuff and they're like, well,
(13:29):
we're just trying to make a living. I'm like, you're
literally selling like a sheet of paper that's got somebody's
pubes on it.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Like why is this a thing?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
So my father like in fifteen was like, well, if
you want to make some money, he's like, you can
help me with this.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
So like literally he skirted the son of Sam laws
for six years.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Is he actually skirting the law? Is he just breaking
the law? Sounds like he's just breaking the law.
Speaker 4 (13:54):
I mean, he's legit breaking the law, but nobody's really
stopped it. He sent sweatpants in the last few years
that were stamped raider for the prison. He sent gold fillings.
Now why does he even have his gold fillings? Or
is he the one actually sending him? Like is there
a black market at the prison? So, I mean it's
been in the news, you know, I've talked about it,
The Eagles looked into it. This has been getting worse
(14:16):
and worse, so I started talking to some detectives about it,
and I started cutting on. My last letter to my
dad was in the fall of seventeen because my dad
was trying to insert himself into my media and trying
to insert myself. He wanted to do like an art
book with me, and he wanted to be part of
my book, and I couldn't trust him anymore. I couldn't
trust anything I wrote him because journalists were contacting him
(14:38):
or contacting me to try to get to him. So
I didn't mean for that to be my last letter.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
It just was.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Now it's like Spring of twenty. I just got out
of the hospital.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I had COVID pneumonia in March of twenty. It's like
April of twenty twenty. I'm like in bed rest recovering
from COVID. Of course he doesn't know this, and I'm
finding out on Instagram. Contacted me that somebody sent my
dad the front page of my book. Now, my dad's
not allowed my book, so if somebody tried to send
my book, the mail room at the prison would stop it.
(15:10):
But somebody tore out the front page of my book
that I had autographed, and there aren't that many out there,
and he had done a BTK autograph. He's not legally
allowed to be doing that. So he's known for this
BTK autograph that he sent to the media in the seventies.
They used it to authenticate his work in the two
thousand and four, he's well known for this autograph.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Does that make you angry?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
I was so just torn up and mad and just disappointed,
just disappointed in the man I knew and my father
that we had done all this work.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
We were communicating.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It was just Dad and me again, and then to
find out he's autographing my book with his upside down
b that are like boobs with a T and they're
like a penis on my book, so like a contacted detective.
And I was like, I'm done now. I didn't sign anything,
I didn't do any official but he took care of it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
He's had a long time sitting in prison to do
some introspection, I would imagine. But doing things like signing
pictures of girl's dead bodies doesn't give me the impression
that he cares more about why or how he did this,
just that he did it at all.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
I mean that's a sign of no remorse and horrible
behavior on as part. If he ever wanted any sort
of even letter relationship with me, Like, that's not showing
any sort of growth, any sort of change, any sort
of I'm sorry, that's just him being a dickhead.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
That's being him being BTK.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I almost feel like once he became outed as the
BTK killer, it almost took over or something. Once the
secret was exposed. Maybe since he no longer had to
suppress it, his entire being is more overcome by it.
It at least appears that way based on the way
he's communicating about it.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Yeah, but he's.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Still protective, Like he won't talk crime with me. He
won't talk BTK, doesn't like the acronym with.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Me, doesn't want to it seems like he's ashamed of
it around you.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Well, he's protective of me, right, But then he wants
me to remember him, like like on my birthday or
mother's days thinking about me or is he wanted me
to remember him.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
So he's making me a carter. He's sending me a
creepy photo.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I'm not a photo but a drawing of like these
these sea creatures with these gaping teeth. He calls himself
the Kansas Pisces. His zodiac is Pisces, and he got
into all these like zodiac stuff now astrology, and he
calls himself the Kansas Pisces, and he calls it like
the canvas with the c canvas.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
Cave, his BTK cave.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
So like after Hamaselon's book came out, she let him
make book plates. So again, I literally have a photo
of it. He drew a bondage rack like it's literally
an upside down bondy track because he said an oh
for his last murder, he thought about hanging her upside down.
So he draws this Bondwe track in black and white.
Somebody photo copies several of these for him. Who is
(18:11):
this person?
Speaker 5 (18:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
He's coloring them, he's numbering them and autographing them, and
they're going out to people that bought Ramslun's book. So like,
finally somebody came to me from the media and said,
can you vouch him vet this for your dad? Because
sometimes people come with to me with something and say,
is this your dad's? And usually if I know, I know,
they just want that like someone that knows knows.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
But instead of spending that same amount of time and
effort and energy into making amends with you guys, he's
relishing in all the evil things that he did to
a degree, Duode.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Didn't notice it was a bondie track, Like that's that's
insane to me, did the criminologist?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Somebody's letting stuff slip through here?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I mean, right, And so I've been progressing. I've been
resting on that.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Why it's like the girl that has no criminology training
finding the bondage track, Like, it's not really awesome that
I know my dad in that way.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Now, did a part of you want to go back
to just the good times you have with your dad?
Speaker 5 (19:15):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Is that what you were trying to do by communicating
with him?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
I mean early on after his arrest, I started writing
him within like the first week. We knew my dad
was guilty early on, and so we basically started a
writing campaign letting him know, like that we knew he
was guilty. Literally, like there's letters that I've shared where
I'm saying, like, you know you're guilty, Please take this
guilty plea for like the community, the victim's famili's, our family,
(19:41):
stop putting us through all this hell, you know, man
up and take the plea. So, from March of five
until when he pled in June of five, we were
all on this writing campaign, my brother, my mom, me,
you know, old friends, people in church, lots of family.
And then after he played guilty, my mom never wrote
him again.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Why she was done? Did a part of you feel
like you wanted to make it better?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Somehow?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I wanted to help him That back and forth it's
got to be just so draining and frustrating.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Yeah, you just want to die.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
It's almost like you can't let go of that feeling
that you are my Dad.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I do love you, I do want you to be okay.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I want to understand how you got this way, But
at the same time, I'm so mad. And so what
is the two major feelings you have? Like going back
and forth between.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
You just have to find that balance and try not
to stait here too long. But you have to find
that balance. And so day to day, you know, I
lived my life and I'm a mom, I'm a writer,
an advocate. I try to find something good. I had
to get to a point of like coming to terms
with what dad was, coming to terms with who I
am in context with my dad, and then after therapy
(20:58):
in twenty fifteen, figuring out what the hell was going
to do this and then seeing that it was doing
some good me talking and knowing that there was some
good that could come out of this, and then I
could almost I can't reset what my dad did.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
I can't give people their lives back.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
When you've told people who you are and who your
father is, have you seen them change the way they
act towards you, or just even their facial expressions?
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Usually get that like oh my god, face, like what
am I going to do with this now? I mean
I literally was just on an interview with BBC Radio
and she didn't know My interviewer didn't know my background story,
and so she's just sitting there saying like like almost,
oh my god's why you're on the interview. You know
now you're not in person with that, but you're kind
of like you came to interview me, so you should
(21:46):
be able to deal. There's just like this, you have
to decide who to tell and when. So literally, like
as I'm traveling for work, I'm traveling to discuss my father,
discuss my journey, advocate for people like me to heal
to advanced knowledge. Right, I should be proud of how
far I've come. I should be proud of who I am.
(22:08):
I should be proud that I have this book. But
do I really want to tell? Like you're sitting next
to sing and airplane, they're like, what do you do
for work? Do you tell them that you're writing? So like, literally,
I met the Salan last week, You're chatting what do
you do for work?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
I'm a writer? What if you write do you answer that?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
What would you answer be?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
It just really depends on the situation, Like if I
can like if I can get away with not saying,
you know, I wrote a book called A Serial Killer's Daughter.
I try not to like literally, the lady that did
my names, we chatted for two hours about everything else,
and then she went in to connect with me on
Instagram and I said, just google me. You know, that's
(22:48):
like my go to answer sometimes with people still is
just google me and you'll find me in thirty seconds,
because it's easier than try and explain who I am
and who my dad is and what I do.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Is it strange at all that this is your work? Now?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's not the life I would have chose at all,
you know, a lot of coming back to life and
finding myself and what's trying to figure out what am
I going to do with this? Like this isn't obviously
I didn't choose this life. I didn't choose my father
to be this. I would do anything for him not
to be b TK. I would do anything to just
have my dad, like to wipe everything out he did
and just have my dad and just be normal and
(23:26):
nobody knew.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
Who I was. This is reality.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
A lot of my trauma therapy, a lot of dealing
with things, was coming to terms with it, Like I
didn't even know I was a writer. I mean, I
had done like ap English in high school. I went
to the same high school as my parents, graduated in
ninety six. Then I was pre vet, so I was
the science track. I ended up with a life science
degree elementary education degree. I had no idea I was
a writer, and then these people came along and they said,
(23:52):
we think you naturally have some gift for writing, and
then you can hone it. Writing ended up being the
thing that could reach those broken and shattered places in
me that nothing else could, that therapy couldn't. So in
twenty fifteen, unfortunately, because I was trying to get everything
so right and accurate for that interview, I basically unleashed
(24:12):
all the stuff I had not dealt with with my dad,
like crime scene photos, details of these people, these victims,
faces of my father, and I had like unleashed all
of it, and I was falling apart with my night
terrors were horrible. I couldn't sleep. I was getting the
images of these dead women in my head.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
What would you see?
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Literally like I.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Had looked at the crime scene photos and now like
it was like seared like trauma in my brain of
like the woman strangled like.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
Possibly with like the ties still harder.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Blood Like I literally had like Nancy Fox's face stuck
in my head. And so I had to go back
to trauma therapy. I had seen the trauma therapist in
O seven, and I went back in fifteen, literally almost
like crawling into her office. And when I went in
and O seven, I barely could say BTK.
Speaker 5 (25:02):
I was like.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Whispering BTK to her. Why I was fearful of my
dad for two years? I was scared to death of
him realistically. I mean, I know he's in solitary. I
know he's in maximum security. I know he's an old man,
even when he was sixty. I know he wasn't ever
going to hurt me. But you've got to realize, like
when you've been in a situation with somebody in like
(25:26):
my dad and your survivor of like verbal and emotional abuse,
you can go back and.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Be that four year old with a scary dad.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
But now like you find out so much more so
you're like, I mean literally, like I'm showing you the
cover of my book, like that photo sets me off.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
How do you feel when you see that, Well.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
It's his arrest photo.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
So he's really mad and sullen because he's been interviewed
for like thirty hours and he's in his prison orange
and he's pissed as hell because he's been caught and
he has at Hanne's sleep And they interviewed him for
thirty hours after he was arrested, and then they told
him they were done with him.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
They had everything they needed. He confessed and they took
a photo of me.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
When you see that picture, do you see your dad?
Speaker 5 (26:10):
No, this is my dad. That's my college graduation.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
And how do you feel when you see that picture?
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Just happy, like happy memory.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
I mean it hurts now, it hurts to seem like that,
but I mean literally, I'm putting decorating the Christmas tree
with him. I'm putting an angel on the tree. When
I was lily, he has me lifted up. It was
like we took turns every year. I got two one
year and my brother in the next.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Both pictures of your dad, but you feel differently about.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Both of them.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Realistically, this is my dad. But literally I was just
in trauma therapy of like a month ago in Orlando
now where I live, and she's reading my book to
help me, and she set me off with this photo
and we ended up talking for an hour. We ran
down like BTK poles because literally, and then I realized
that photo had triggered me. So now watch what am
(26:57):
I gonna do. I'm gonna flip it. This is my
book and I don't like it's sitting there on my
bookshelf with dad. I didn't have any choice. They put
him on the cover. So I'm literally flipping it right
now so.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I don't have to look at it.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
But it's better than being torn up inside and questioning
everything and questioning yourself and questioning reality and dying. So
it's either dying inside or this.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
So it's this, And what is this helping? Hopefully?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
I mean it's hard to sit here and talk and
you're probably like, why is she doing this to herself?
I mean it helps me to talk about it gets
some of that out. Like I'm literally, you know, if
I go back into trauma therapy, I'm and be like,
well I cried at this moment and she's like, Okay,
well there's something in.
Speaker 5 (27:41):
There we got to dig at.
Speaker 6 (27:42):
But I've been told by so many people I'm helping.
I want to help. I've always wanted to help I
wanted to help my dad, right, I'm like the little
girl wanting to help my dad not be angry, like
I'm the opposite of him.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, I think that's what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
So I it helps me and helps other people.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You said earlier that you think that your dad was
ninety percent Dennis Raider ten percent BTK. Do you feel
like once the news broke and there became fan clubs
and different weird stuff like that, that it maybe further
empowered the BTK in Dennis Raider to where he almost
(28:26):
became more proud of it.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
I mean when I talked to detectives, they're like, the
worst thing you can do to somebody like my dad
is not talk about it.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Not talk to him, not give.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Him any power, not ask him anything, not come to
him with anything, but just completely not talk about him
like he doesn't exist. That's the worst thing you can
do to my father, and probably the best thing you
can do. And so, like when we're talking about the
word monster or something, these guys become bigger than life
because of all the lore and the legend around him
and the massive amount of impact they've had in the
(28:58):
decades of people that have studied them and made careers
around them, and you know, trying to solve these things
and figure out what's wrong with these guys and how
can we stop and quicker like they become these these big, huge,
bigger than life things. But are we still applying that
same sort of rigid psychopathy profile to the guys we're
trying to catch now or are we looking for the
(29:21):
d'angelos and the raiders?
Speaker 5 (29:23):
Are we I don't know, maybe somebody else can answer that.
Do they still exist? Are they still active?
Speaker 4 (29:30):
And are we looking for the right or are we
looking for that narrow list of what a psychopath is?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Thanks again to Carrie Rawson for reaching out and being
such a pivotal part of this show. You can find
her books, including A Serial Killer's Daughter and Breaking Free
at Barnes and Noble or wherever you get your books.
And remember to listen to the main series of Monster
BTK and even more bonus content and early and completely
(30:02):
ad free on iHeart Truecrime Plus. Thanks for listening.
Monster: The Zodiac Killer News
Hosts And Creators
Payne Lindsey
Matt Frederick
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