Film Series: Casey on Ghost World

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Movie Crush, a production of I Heart Radio.

(00:44):
Hey everybody, Welcome to Movie Crush Friday Interview edition with Casey. Hello,
and what you're listening to now? If you're a fan
of Ghost World, I don't have to tell you what
this is. You're you're listen to move right now. It
is good stuff. This is uh and I'm gonna butcher
the pronunciation, so all apologies, but I'm gonna pronounce it

(01:04):
John peetchen Ho. That might be right. Indian rock and
roll Bollywood song sung by Mohammed Rafi, composed by Shankar
Jackie Sean, lyrics by shell Andra. And that's been movie Crush.

(01:25):
Uh yeah, and imagine we're fading it out right about now.
Welcome Casey. Hey, great to be here. How are you?
That sounded very unenthusiastic. I'm good, I'm good. Um, I'm
a little thrown off by the space. So I'm I'm
I'm acclimating. Yeah. We are in a different studio today,
and um, I guess this one creeps Casey out for
the window man. The window is doing things to me.

(01:45):
I don't know why. Yeah, Ramsey is looking in there.
This big mapa fair that's weirding me out? Can something
just be normal today? We'll try, we'll try to get there.
Uh So, Casey, before we get going on Ghosts World, Uh,
do you want to tell Oscars a little bit just
of I mean, this will be kind of old hat
by then, but yeah, I'm sure people are probably sick

(02:05):
of hearing about it. But maybe just give me a
couple of highlights for you and a couple of low lights,
whether it's to me, was seeing Bong junho just run
the board on? You know, a movie that I will
have seen by the time you haven't seen Paris I
yet this comes out? Yeah, but yeah, I still have
not seen that goddamn movie. Yeah. I saw it, um
almost a year ago now in Paris at the Satellite

(02:28):
Can event, and I remember you talking about that. But
you know, it was it was. I mean I liked
it at the time. I think I gave it a
four out of five. I had no expectation or or
notion whatsoever that it would continue to like have the
kind of second life that's had here in the US
with all the kind of you know, mainstream attention and

(02:49):
success and million dollar domestic gross is not bad because
of film. Yeah, I've had that experience any number of
times of seeing something that I thought was really great
there that disappears and yeah, exactly, it barely opens here
or it never opens at all, So I get yeah,
so you know, my my my way of gauging that.
I just had no idea it was going to have

(03:09):
such legs. And I think I think Bong Juno was
quite surprised by that as well. It was pretty neat.
He's a great guy. He was quoted uh somewhere is
saying that he thought he had made the film about
very very specifically Korean issues in in in their society
today with wealth disparity and so on, and he's like no,
But then I realized, like, as the film started to

(03:31):
travel the world, we all kind of live in one
country called capitalism, and that's basically you know, everybody can
relate to to something about that movie. So um, that
was that was really cool. I love that he gave
Scorsese such a outsize um shout out from the stage
his acceptance speeches, and you could tell Scorsese was genuinely
moved by it as well. Yeah, and uh gave gave

(03:53):
Tarantino kind of a little shout out as well for
being um an early supporter of of of some of
his films and then kind of through the other two.
They're just too polite exactly, but you could tell it
was it was really about scarsse In Tarantino. Yeah, yeah,
um low light, well uncut gems getting like not even acknowledged. Yeah,
I think my low light and I talked about it
with with Paul. Paul stepped in last minute to talk

(04:15):
Oscars cool yesterday. But and it's probably not fair because
I have not seen Judy. I'm sure the performance is great,
but I really wanted Scarlett Johansson to win that for marriage.
So yeah, so did I so did I. I I thought
she just acted her ass off in that movie. And
I'm just kind of tired of the play. And Icon
went an award thing and yeah, that movie was Judy.

(04:36):
I'm saying, what was not anywhere near like my radar
at all. It just came completely out of left field
to me that. Yeah, Um, I I just thought it
was an extra nomination. I didn't consider it. Did you
see it? No? I didn't see it. So maybe it's great.
I don't know, but I'm sure it's fine, and I'm
sure she's great, Rene's bigger, Um is a fine actor.

(04:57):
Not slagging her. I just wanted my favorite twin. Yeah,
and it just you know, as as Awards season is
is kind of wearing on, Like it just feels like
there's certain movies that you hear more about that are
part of the conversation that people are excited about. Judy
was not one. I had not heard anything about that movie,
So that's my only gauge. Yeah, anything else, let's see

(05:21):
I seeing Lord Dernwin. Yes, that was fantastic, And it
actually kind of blew my mind that she had not
one before, right, because I mean there's a million things
that she already deserved it before. Give her a wild
at Heart Oscar now, yeah, wild at heart. But if
you want to talk about acting, yeah, it's she's She's
great in this Kelly Regard movie Certain Women that came out.
I never saw that a few years back. I highly

(05:41):
recommend seeing that. Um, but she plays a lawyer in
that one as well, a very very different lawyer in
like a small town. And Um, she's really just great lately,
between this and Big Little Wise, Yeah, which I have
not seen, but I forgot things about you know, I
watched part of the first season, but Emily Barrel ahead
without me, so I kind of got left Sure sure Us.
That never picked back up, but it was good. There's

(06:03):
a there's a whole controversy about that show where the
first season was directed by this Canadian Geen Mark Valet,
who's done What did he do? He did? Um? What's
that movie about? I think it's called It's Somebody goes
off on like a on a hike and they loss
and they can't get back. I think it's Reese Witherspoon
who plays the lead. Sure the Wild or something. It

(06:26):
was the book. It was a very famous book. He
made that a good movie. Yeah, he made that movie.
He made like Dallas Buyers Club. He's He's made a
bunch of stuff. So he directed the first season. Second
season brought on a new director, Andrea Arnold Um, who
I'm quite a big fan of her. Her feature work.
Um made films like American Honey, Fish Tank. I don't

(06:47):
know those movies. Casey, Yeah, She's She's out of the UK. Um.
American Honey made a pretty sizeable splash. Shila buff is
in it. I do remember hearing about that because it's
kind of like a three hour road movie very like
On the Road caroc kind of inspired. U. Yeah, it's
it's great. It's it's mostly non professionals in the cast

(07:07):
and um shot you can basically tell like they really
are kind of in a van just driving around America,
and UM yeah, it's it's sort of a film about
the youth of today, especially people who come from kind
of a lower social strata, sort of their their discovery
quote unquote of America. And um really really good. And
so anyway, she came onto this, um big, big little eyes.

(07:31):
She has her very distinct, kind of unique way of shooting.
She's kind of in the Malik school of like shooting
all the time, finding these little stolen moments that are
natural and unplanned and so on. And that was the
way that they shot the whole season, and nobody interfered
with it until it got into the cutting room, and
then the problem started. I think I remember hearing about this. Yeah,

(07:53):
and so basically yeah, HBO and and and Valet who's
a producer as well. Basically he came back and reshot
a bunch of stuff interesting with her on set still
kind of as director, but it was kind of like,
you know, nuded her. Yeah, in a way, and so
you know, I think some people were not as happy
with the second season, and then it kind of became
this thing of like release the Andre Arnold version, please,

(08:15):
and yeah it might have been much better, which I
don't think it ever reached full completion for them to
just put out an alternate version like that. But well,
or if you're going to turn it over to someone,
either let either do that and let the exactly the
exactly or say, hey, listen, we'd like you to direct this.
We think a lot of you, but we really want
to keep with this certain style, stick with the house style,
because that's that's because that's this. That's the rule in

(08:35):
TV is that you got you're a hired hand, and
you need to kind of match all the other episodes
more or less so that it feels consistent. And when
you kind of bring a completely different, unique viewpoint to
a show, some shows, that's probably great, but this one
they wanted to keep it kind of in that more
familiar season one territory. So it's kind of a nice Yeah, wow,

(08:55):
some good acting on this show, that's all I know.
And great houses, Emily and I watch a movie just
because of the locations. Great House. I think Emily seen
that stupid movie Me, You, Me and Dupre like at
least twice just because of the house. Wow, what's what's

(09:16):
what's the special at the house. It's just you know,
movie houses are always great, yeah, yeah, and when they
match what you love, then it's the best version of that.
So this was like this amazing craftsman with you know,
great built ins and just like craftsman porn everywhere. Have
you seen that that documentary kind of essay film Los

(09:36):
Angeles Plays Itself. Yes, there's there's some great commentary in
that film architecture and houses. You know, the way the
way certain architecture in l A Is like always associated
with villains and movies. Yeah that's right. Yeah, Yeah, that
just made me think of that, like the way he
he really takes that stuff very seriously and you know,

(09:57):
reads several several layers into a film. Just that's a
great title to Los Angeles Plays. Yeah, yeah, fantastic. Yeah,
that that famous glass cube house exactly, That's what I
was picturing in my head so many Yeah, man, good stuff.

(10:19):
All right, So let's get into ghost World. Uh, the
great great film from Terry's wage Off from two thousand
and one I believe. Yes, I think you're right when
Scar Joe was and she actually played older, which is rare.
Usually they get like a twenty four year old to
play an eighteen year old, right right, I think she
was about probably sixteen is seventeen. Yeah, she was kind

(10:41):
of you know, playing a few years above her actual
age and a few roles in that in that period,
I think, Yeah, which she did well. I think because
that was a uh, I don't know. There was a
worldliness of maybe a maturity of a kind of a
wisdom beyond her years. Yeah. Yeah, an old soul kind
of feeling. Yeah. It's fun to see this again though,

(11:02):
and see her as just a little kid, because she's
really good in this and the way that she was
a good actor when she was a kid. So this
does this role doesn't require digging super deep emotionally. Yeah,
it's sort of all on the surface, but she nailed it.
The sort of detachment, the kind of just above it all,
like everything sucks. Yeah yeah, and and like you're right,

(11:24):
you don't have to. There's only a few scenes, really,
um where where we start to see beneath that armor
and we see some real vulnerability and She's great in
those scenes as well, But a lot of it is
just kind of um, you know, Daria level, like just
eye rolling at everything. So what's your what was your
entry point for this film and and why was it
on your short list of things you sent? Well, I

(11:46):
saw it back in two thousand one, and I watched
it a lot back then. It was one of those
movies that you were young exactly. I mean I I
was kind of the age of the characters roughly. I
would have been Yeah, I would have been like eighteen
or so when it came out, So I definitely watched
it in high school. Um, I told all my friends
about it, made them watch it, said Scarlet, Yeah, Um,

(12:10):
of course we've all seen thora Birch in American media
a couple of years before. Um, I don't remember. I
don't think I had seen Crumb yet. This WIF documentary
on Robert Crumb, right, Um I had, Okay, yeah, but
I was a lot sure, um, which was something that
I discovered very soon after discovering this movie and went
back and watched that and was blown away by that.

(12:32):
And also you know that movie in this movie are
kind of um complimentary in a lot of ways. Because
I think there's a lot of Crumb in Seymour. Yeah,
and and in the overall kind of worldview outlook of
everything in this film. Yeah, which we'll talk about at
length because it's a lot of what this film is about.
But I think like Ghost World, the Ark Crumb Documentary

(12:52):
and American Splendor you can package is sort of great
trio of films about a certain worldview and a certain aesthetic,
a certain time and place. Uh. And certainly you know
a group of artists, in this case, graphic novelists. Crumb
has like a small kind of role in the American
Splendor as well. Um. So yeah, for me, this was

(13:15):
like the way that I related to this film was
very much a personal relation, like seeing a lot of
myself in these characters, relating a lot to how they felt. Yeah,
I could see that young Casey. Yeah, I definitely had
that same experience of feeling very cut off from the
bulk of the people at my high school, a feeling
kind of different, a feeling like when am I going

(13:36):
to meet quote unquote my people, that kind of thing.
I'd be feeling a little older. Yeah, your peers, I
did have really good friends in high school. I don't.
I don't want to say that I didn't, but still
I had this feeling that, like, you know, you're gonna
go off to college and you're gonna meet the people
that are like in everything that you're into. Yeah, you
weren't one of those people that was like, man, high
school the best years. Yeah, exactly. There's there's not necessarily

(13:57):
a ton of nostalgia for that period, although I didn't
have a terrible high school experience, but still it's it
was like, you know, there's better things ahead kind of feeling.
Did you go to Roswell High Yep, tough school, tough,
really well academically. Oh yeah, yeah, you know it was
the same back cancer. Yeah, standards are pretty high there,
I guess, but now it's it's kind of regarded as
a for Atlanta Public High school is kind of a

(14:19):
pretty challenging one. When you said tough, I was seeing
more like dangerous. It was like, no, it's not dangerous.
It's pretty much the opposite dangerous. It's very safe but
academically pretty well regarded. So um, I mean, we can
jump all around. I don't think we need to go
in order for this. Terry's why golf was I think
like fifty or fifty one when he made this first.
He's definitely narrative film, late starter in in in filmmaking. Yeah,

(14:42):
that's very encouraging, I think. Yeah for people out there
that think thirty five and I done it yet, like
why bother like me? Right? Yeah? Look at Terry's Yeah, yeah,
I definitely the only example. No, no, no, Robert Allman
was like ancient by the time, ending it when it happens. Yeah,
there's there's there's a there's a handful of directors again

(15:03):
you can point to that. You know, they don't really
get going until like their fifties, six years. Even Boots Riley, Yeah,
I just made his first. That's right. I think he's
kind of my age. Yeah, so it's never too late, folks,
that's right. Thora Birch. I sort of did a deep
dive on her after this because I was like, where
did she go? And I read an article from last

(15:26):
year where she kind of talked a lot about her dad,
and I think she was defending him, but a lot
of the outside people they interviewed said her dad kind
of got in the way a lot in her career. Piste,
A lot of people off classic kind of stage dad.
I think so. But her parents, unless I read this incorrectly,

(15:46):
we're both adult actors. And I don't mean they started acting.
I think what you mean. I think they were adult
film actors thing because they were both in Deep Throat okay,
and that like I read it, I think it was
just alleged and I was like, no, man, like, here's
a picture of her mom in Deep Throats. Interesting. Yeah,

(16:08):
But so he knew his way around the film business,
even if it's your kind of version of that world.
Like he understood filmmaking and apparently would get a little
two involved, just like even getting up to the director
and say, no, you're not lighting her like she should
be led. Yeah, yeah, which, as you know, is like that,
that'll get your daughter not working very fast. Yeah, if

(16:31):
you're you know, if you're not Marlen Dietrich or something. Yeah,
And I think that might have been the case. I
think that's why she went away a little bit. Although
she's like, you know, I want to go to college,
which she did, and that's fair enough, but um, it's
tough to come back sometimes when you take that break,
and that's why actors don't take breaks. And also I
feel like if you if you first appear when you're

(16:53):
like a kid, because she was in she was a
little little kid in some movies. Yes, so that that's
always a cool to people age awkwardly sometimes or or
they just don't look like what everybody's picture of that
person is, especially when you go away because the correct
she's thirties seven, she's like late thirties now, maybe even forty,

(17:14):
and she looks like someone her age. She looks fine.
But when you don't see someone right, I was like,
oh my gosh, like Thora Birch is not a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When when people kind of disappear off screen like that,
they kind of stay frozen in her minds is a
certain thing. And then when you see them again, it's like,
whoa what who is this? You know? Yeah, they're like

(17:34):
it's me, motherfucker eighteen years older exactly. Um, but Scardjoe
is so good. Thora Birch is so good. There they're assholes. Um.
But I think seeing it at this age was a
lot different than when I saw it when it first
came out right, same here, same here. I think I
was a little more like, yeah, man, all that ship,

(17:58):
Oh yeah, I mean I saw it. You know, within
a few years of like reading Catcher and the Rye
like that that whole teenage thing where you really do
feel like you've kind of got the world figured out
and everybody else is an idiot and and if they
would just get out of your way, then you would
do great things. Um, and uh, they're idiots. Yeah, well
I mean not you even you even see that trajectory

(18:19):
in the film, right, like you know, I mean that's
that's kind of what it's about, is growing up as
sort of maturing and hard lessons, encountering the real world
kind of for the first time. Yeah, hard lessons and
and just um, you know, coming to that realization that
you're you're maybe not the person you thought you were,
and who you're going to become is somebody that's almost

(18:43):
a stranger to you. And but you're gonna have to
take that journey in and you know and see where
it goes. But it's that high school thing to where
like they're so anti establishment, but at that age, like
you can't even do that, right. Oh yeah, yeah, it's
very funny like the things that um, it's like when
she has like her one day punk phase, right, and
and everybody just rags on her for being so cliche

(19:05):
and so try hard. Um, but but at that age,
I mean you you are really struggling to kind of
figure out the everything about yourself, your identity, like what
what you're going to be? Yeah, and she projects this
like I don't give a ship what anyone says. But
she's so threatened when people come after her green hair. Yeah,
she's very well, I'm clearly doing the original punk thing. Yeah.

(19:26):
And then Scarlett actually says like I didn't really get
it either. It's like everybody's stupid. You know. That was
a There are a lot of little lines like that
that are easily just sort of not noticed right the
first time through, especially, I just kind of let it slide.
And then once you kind of know where where the
movie is going, you start to see those tiny little
cracks and fissions in the in the friendship start really

(19:46):
early on. There's Um, I'm trying to remember what the
very first thing in the movie is that that signals
like that, because I clocked it last night when I
was watching There's a there's a shot where it just
cuts to Scarlett Johanson, um, not saying anything, but she
has this look of kind of I'm not really feeling
a present connected to my friend right now kind of thing.

(20:07):
It's interesting because when you're both too sort of misanthropic, um,
everyone is an idiot, and you hang around each other
and it's just constant sort of negativity. Eventually I think
you will turn on each other even or or one
of you is going to spin out of it and
and just which is what happens. Yeah, and and then

(20:27):
there's going to be that kind of disconnect where suddenly
it's like, uh, you know, pretty late in the film
where um, Rebecca, the Scarlette Johanson character is working in
what is clearly a Starbucks, though it's branded as something else,
and yeah, and uh uh, you know, she has all
these customers that give her a hard time and thor

(20:48):
Birches in there, and you know, she's she's still kind
of amused by it. She thinks that it's cool that
these people are kind of a pain in the acid
and so on, and Scarlett's like, it's really not, They're
really not cool. It just kind of saw I just
kind of want to kill everybody, and and she's like,
but those are people, and it's just kind of you know,
it's like one of those things where it's like, all right,
it's time to like, you know, grow up a little bit. Yeah,

(21:09):
they kind of take turns almost, um. And it's not
like they're taking turns. What it is is there each
on their individual journey exactly, and they're overlapping some and
they're going apart some on. But you know, for instance,
Scarlett Johansson wants to She's like, get a job, man,
and like, let's go shopping for plates because we an

(21:29):
apartment with nothing to drink out it is not cool
or hip. Yeah, let's grow up a little bit. She's
working now, so like her time is a lot more limited,
and so like the importance of making plans and being
punctual and sticking to the plan and so on the
whole like be there by noon exactly. Um. When you know,
while thor Bridge is still kind of in this like

(21:50):
maybe I will, maybe I won't kind of drift from
day to day, you know, uh, take life as it comes. Uh,
just be a free spirit and so on. But on
the other hand, she is the one that is giving
Seymour a chance and things like this guy might be cool,
whereas scar Joe is like very dismissive. Yeah, it's it's
interesting and that's just life. Man Like, sometimes you hang

(22:13):
onto those friends from when you're fourteen and fifteen, but
a lot of times you don't, and you grow up
and you're like, we're not really that much alike anymore. Yeah,
college was like that, certainly for me. It's like people
that I didn't really have the that disconnected feeling during
high school so much, but as soon as high school
was over, even the summer between high school and college,

(22:34):
it was kind of like you could feel people being
pulled into in directions. And then you know, when people
go out of state for school and you're kind of
spread around the world a little bit. I mean, it's
very easy to kind of either lose touch or keep
in touch, but just that connection starts to become weaker
in a way. Yeah, and you find yourself a lot
more obviously in a college and even in post college

(22:57):
because it's interesting now with Facebook to look around and
especially at my age, you know, at forty eight years
old to see the my best friend in high school
moved to Montana after college and never left and all
he does is hike and fly fish with his two
girls and his wife. Um, some people never left the

(23:18):
five square miles that they grew up. Um, and they
don't hike and fly no, no, but I definitely I
definitely knew those people too. Um. Yeah, I don't know.
I feel like Facebook kind of kind of spoils that stuff,
you know, the mystery of the class reunion or catching
up with a friend after you know a long time.
You can just each it around and say, oh, yeah,

(23:39):
I know, I saw that. Yeah exactly. It's like I
saw your post. That's why don't post all that case
you'd like to, uh, same here, keep people in the
I'm pretty much I'm pretty much off Facebook without being
off Facebook at this point. Yeah, I mean, you know,
I peek around to see because right now I've kind
of hidden almost everyone that's not a very close friend
or professional colleague. Um. And that's a good way to

(24:01):
keep up with professional colleagues. Yea, there, but I dropped everyone. Yeah,
you just got to at some point. Sorry, if you're listening.
Bob Balaban, the Great to Bob Balaban, fantastic, so good
in this and a in a smart, uh a small role.
But Enid is so mean to him and so mean
to Terry, the beloved Terry Gar whom I miss so
so much in her situation is just so tragic and sad.

(24:25):
But um, they're both, I think. And the thing that's
kind of the point is they're both okay, they're fine.
They're not. No. No, she acts like she's the step
monster incarnate. But I can completely relate to that teenage
feeling of like, mom, dad, you're embarrassing me, please go away.
Like yes, um that you know, that's some kids. A

(24:48):
lot of kids have that period where you wanted to
find yourself something separate, and um, it doesn't matter how
much your parents love you or how much how genuinely
supportive and cool they really are. Know, you know, every
parents nightmare's just no way around it. Really. Yeah, unless
you know my brother is I just hold him up
as the perfect example his both of his kids always

(25:10):
adored their parents and still do and they're all best
buddies still, and there was never that period where they
rebelled and to the extent where they were like you suck,
like I don't want my parents around. So but you know,
you can't make that happen. No, you can't, and you can't.
You can foster it and make it happen. Yes, it

(25:32):
might go that way regardless of what you do, just
you know, it just depends on the kid. That's right. Um,
these girls are very fun at the same time in
their spirit of adventure and their offbeat kind of let's
let's follow those people the moment the Satanists the umbrellas,
about those umbrellas that they both have, it looks like

(25:53):
such a genuine reaction. I wondered if that was if
they surprised them because they were both just like, oh
my god, yes, yes, so great, I love it. And
then obviously we got to talk about brad renfro the
late great Yes, yeah, man, so sad so he yeah he.

(26:15):
After this movie, this was what two one, he made
another movie with Larry Clark called Bully, which is fantastic.
I saw that fantastic movie, very very like the pressing movie,
but but also extremely well done. Um I think, you know,
he probably had a few more roles here and there,
but yeah, he he started to really really get into

(26:35):
trouble with drugs, with hard drugs. I think heroin, I'm
not sure. Yeah, I said he died from heroin and
morphine yea, at the age of And it was a
kind of thing where I think even even when he
was still working. It was a kind of he had
that kind of reputation. Yeah, he got arrested. Larry clark
Um I think had to like, you know, at a
few points go into like flop houses and kind of

(26:58):
bring him back from the brink. And well says here
he was arrested on skid row in l A. Yeah,
if you're hanging out down there, man, I feel like
he there's a story where he like stole a boat
from a you know, from a doc while he was
filming Bully maybe and they had to like talk the
police into letting him back out again. And you know
he's gonna have a minder and all this kind of stuff,
but he just had some real demons. Yeah, it's very sad.

(27:20):
It's very very sad. He's quite a talent. And it's
weird to me because, having watched the commentary track for
this film, having also read like the the like the
Criterion liner notes and so on, nobody really mentions renfro
and any really interesting. I wonder if it's just because
it's depressing, it's a sore spot somehow it's depressing. Maybe

(27:41):
he wasn't great to work with. I don't know. But
whatever it was, he was. He had a great screen
presence and he brings a lot to his role here.
Even though he only has a handful of scenes, he
still sticks in your mind as like being a fleshed
out person. Absolutely, um mullet dude. Yes, man, I love
that guy. I think of him as a nunshut guy
sometimes as a while. Ye yeah, rock and roll baby.

(28:06):
He was great. I never realized until last night, and
I've seen this probably it's probably like my fourth that
there was a scene at the very I got surprised
by that too. I mean I've seen it before, but
it had been a while. I forgot about it. I
saw it last night for the first time. And for
people at home that have seen this and not seen
the post credit scene, the part where Steve bush Emmy

(28:26):
where his character gets taken down by nunchuck guy when
he confronts Josh and the convenience store, there's an alternate
version of that where he beats their asses and he's like,
you want to funk with me? Yeah, he runs out
the door. But it was funny after a very low
key Steve Bushimmy. Yeah, I loved it. I loved it,

(28:48):
and it was funny watching it last night, it almost
had the effect of feeling like, maybe this is where
Seymour is going to get to as a character, Like
because the last thing we see of him is very
bleak a way. He's he's seeing a therapist, and I
mean that part's fine, but but you can just tell
like hell yeah when his mom picks him up. Then

(29:08):
but then he realized, like he's even saying to his
therapists like, you know, everything ever since my life went
to ship, like you know, I feel like I'm getting
better now. I'm almost ready to get back into life again. Yeah.
I guess you kind of assumed that obviously been fired
from his job, he probably had to move back home.
Maybe he just decided to. I don't know. He had
that stint in the hospital so from his neck injury.

(29:31):
Yeah exactly. So you know, we we hope that I
hope anyway that that he's this is gonna be a
turning point for him and he's gonna start doing something
a little more in line with you know who he is. Yeah,
he was really good in this movie. I love the
character of Seymour. Um I felt bad for him a lot,
not because of any way that he is, but for

(29:54):
how he's treated and sort of viewed. But there's that
one great line, you know, because Thora's clearly sort of
I mean, let's talk about the relationship. Does she fall
in love with him? I think so in her own way?
And is are we to think that she's like eighteen? Yeah,
and he's because it's pretty creepy. Yeah, he's not on

(30:17):
the prow though. No, That's the thing. I think the
reason that it doesn't play too disturbingly in the film
is that it really is Thora Birch who's pursuing him.
And he's even sort of most of the movie like,
you know, like your kid, you're right, right, especially once
he gets in that relationship, he's really trying to he's

(30:39):
in a yeah, he's in he's in a tough spot
because he it's like he can't even fully acknowledge that
there is this second layer of you know, almost attraction
or romantic kind of interest between the two of them,
because there shouldn't be and and so in a way
it's like, well, what's the problem, We're just friends. But

(31:00):
he knows and she knows that it's a little more
than that. It's a little more complicated, and that's why
he doesn't feel so great about seeing her once he's
in this other relationship, but it's hard for him to
articulate it. Yeah, you're not allowed to do that in society, exactly, exactly.
It's almost not allowed to have, right, an eighteen year
old friend who's a girl if you're a forty year

(31:21):
old man, because it's almost impossible. It's just going to
look wrong. It does, and it's it's amazing that this
movie manages to pull it off without it just feeling
like he's predatory or yeah, because they are friends and
they've got a lot in common and they support one another.
I feel like, I mean, he's he's like he's almost

(31:42):
a little bit of a mentor in a way, um,
but but very much a friend too. And and you know,
she's teaching him things about life as much as he's
teaching her in terms of the dating and so on,
and in terms of just saying, hey, you know you,
you are a nice guy, you have some good qualities.
You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You should put
yourself out there more. And there are people like you

(32:02):
that will you know, that would that would be thrilled
to date you, and so on. Yeah, that's something that
he really needed to hear. I think. So, Yeah, she
takes him on as a bit of a project because
she feels like she owes him because of how they met,
with her setting him up and making fun of him.
There's that great line later in the movie that really
and and I have a few lines in here scribbled

(32:24):
down that I love. But when she says, I guess
it just can't stand the idea of a world where
a guy like you can't get a date right, right,
And that's kind of one of the sweetest things she
could say to him in that moment. Yeah, not like, hey,
I think you're super handsomer. I think you're like whatever.
She's like, we shouldn't like you should be able to
get a date. Man, you're a good guy. You have
a lot to offer. Yeah, we all need to hear

(32:45):
those things. Yeah, oh no, no, absolutely. I mean it's
so funny that, you know, I relate to to so
many different parts of this movie. I can relate to
the thora Birch and Johanssen, that kind of teenage you know,
angst and and apathy and but now you're like to
see more. Yeah, well old, but when I was even
when I was eighteen, I could wait to parts to

(33:06):
see more where you know, he's he's like, um, you
know when when they go to the concert and he's
there to see the opener, he was like this like
deep cut, you know, um, old old Delta blues guy
who has been humiliatingly reduced to being the opener. Awful, awful. Yeah,
blues Hammer. That's such a funny lot. It's super funny. Yeah,

(33:29):
like just to call a band blues hammer. Yeah yeah.
And then they get up there and start singing about
like plowing cotton. Yeah, and it's a bunch of white
dudes just obnoxiously you know. Yeah, it's it's it's perfect.
But the way the way he has that exchange with
the woman at the at the at the show where
it's like, oh, you guys both like blues and then
he just goes onto this long, pedantic diet. Technically that

(33:53):
was ragtime, but Scott yeah, yeah, she's just like, well
you should stay for blues hammer. Yeah yeah yeah. And
I've had the was those uh moments like that where
where it's just kind of like you know, you're you're
This is something that's that's so interesting to me about
the film. And the relationship that he does ultimately end
up in where she has a lot of the same

(34:14):
kind of um uh just just she doesn't go as
deep as him with music, yeah, danta um, even though
she likes music as well, and they can they can
probably connect on on a on a higher level there.
But but in terms of, you know, the way she
will casually kind of put down what he's into without him,

(34:37):
without her necessarily even realizing she's doing it. When she
gives him that that that that horse kind of guy
on count on horseback thing, um, which was that was
a great little payoff. Yeah, yeah, when but you know,
she she says to him, or it's it's seymore quoting
her uh to uh to to eat it. He says

(34:58):
something like or she says to him, oh you can,
you can put this with all your other old, weird
all timing stuff, you know, And to him, it's not
That's not why he collects it, right, He collects it
because he really is passionate and cares about this stuff
and very specific things and very specific things, and and
with with a real understanding of like history and how
these pieces all fit together, and and the curator. Yeah,

(35:20):
he's a curator and and what that says about really
America in general, and and this kind of like um
commentary on on our on our history and so on.
And yeah, but to her it just feels like you're
weird antiques, you're kind of you know, um schmaltzy stuff
that you have. So and and but crucially, I don't

(35:41):
think the movie is really necessarily saying that therefore they
should not be together. It's like, this is what an
adult relationship can be. Like you're you're probably not going
to meet somebody that is on board with everything. And
Seymour even says at one point, is like what I
I maybe I don't want to meet somebody who has
all my same interests. I hate my interests, which is
really funny. Yeah, like the self loathing, the paradox of like,

(36:04):
these are my interests, but I hate that these are
my interests. But they are my interest but they isolated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's very interesting and and she you know, um, there's
there's that great scene where Enid asked him like, well,
let's make a list of your interests. You know, we
are you into it? He's like, well, you know, blues, ragtime, jazz,
you know, and she's like, Okay, we're gonna put all

(36:25):
that under the category music. And she's like, now you've
got other and there's probably nothing else there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
it's like old weird art. Yeah, which, by the way,
coons Chicken is real. Yes, I know, I know. I
did not find that out until yesterday. I think I
found that I just because I read it in the
in the booklet for the criteria and they had a picture.
I mean, it's the same picture of the same movie.
It is a real, real place. They did not rebrand later, exactly. Yeah.

(36:48):
I guess they just shut down or something as up
with them. Yeah, yeah, but I mean they they went
past the times though, I mean they there were there
were there were um restaurants in that in that chain
that we're open to, like the late fifties. Yeah, bonkers
to think about. Yeah, but if it's in the right town,
of course, then you can get away. Uh. And we'll
talk more about their relationship, you know, as we go.

(37:10):
But I do want to mention the great great Eliana Douglas.
Huge fan of hers, always have been mirror father, Mirror
She There's something about is why And I don't know
if it's it's probably both obviously Terry's wage off and
is it clouds or clothes? I always thought it was closed, yeah,
data clouds. And when I finally like heard it spoken

(37:32):
a loud, I was like, oh, it's clouds. That's weird. Yeah,
their sensibility in their worldview, um as a team here,
I think it's I think movies like Napoleon Dynamite tried
to do this and did not succeed. I know people
love that movie. I'm not one of them. I feel
like a movie like that is trying to be offbeat

(37:54):
and weirdly yes, whereas this is just it's being authentically
itself yes, and plans to fall into the category of offbeater, weird. Yes.
This you can tell that this is how these guys
kind of see the world. Yes, yeah, exactly, And and
um yeah that is that is a very important distinction,
just like setting out to be quirky versus just kind
of being an individual. And maybe I'm wrong. Who made

(38:16):
Napoleon Dynamite? What else did that person go? Jared Hess
I think is his name? He made uh Nacho Libra,
that Jack Black movie. Yeah, you know, I I first
saw that my brother and his Family Love, Nacho Libra.
There's one more that I'm forgetting. Gentleman Broncos. Oh you
know what. That movie was the pick of uh god,

(38:42):
what comedian? Oh, I can picture him in my head.
It's one of my favorite stand ups. Arch Parker. Oh yeah, sure,
Josh and I were able to meet him. He lives
in Australia now because I think he married an Australian
woman and now does comedy in Australia. And he came
to his stuff you should oh show when we toured
there and I was trying to get him on movie

(39:04):
Crush and he picked Gentleman Broncos And I looked because
I hadn't heard of the film, and I thought, and
I didn't ask him. I thought he might have been
trolling me because it's regarded as like one of the
worst movies ever, like the Rotten Tomatoes on it is,
like I'm gonna look it up. Actually, I mean it's
in the teens or something. So I was like, is

(39:26):
this guy fucking with me? But when I met him,
he said, yeah, you know, sorry, we didn't get to
Gentleman Broncos. He's like that movie is amazing. He's like
everyone gets it. Wrong. Yeah, so he genuinely loves it.
What's great. Yeah, comedies can be like that sometimes it
maybe want to see it though, Yeah, no, I mean
the I have not seen that one. There's another kind
of similar, maybe similar example in a way. Um. Tom

(39:48):
Green's Freddy Got Fingered is like an all time favorite
of mine. Really it probably has a zero percent on
Rotten Tomatoes if you never ever saw that movie. Oh yeah,
it's that one. It's a little different, I think, than
than Roman Broncos because the movie itself is kind of
a Tom Green prank. I mean, the act of making
that movie. Uh, it was sort of him putting putting

(40:10):
a middle finger up to the studio system and you know,
the what what was expected of him in terms of
being a first time director and so on. But I
also think it's genuinely like hilarious. It's surreal and bizarre
and maybe I should check it out. Yeah, I don't
know if if if you'll be into it or not,
but again, it was it was. This is one something
I saw around the same time as Ghost World, like

(40:30):
two thousand one, two thousand too. Um discovered it on
DVD and didn't didn't expect to to really even enjoy it,
even though I loved The Tom Green Show and everything. UM,
but no, I really really enjoyed the movie. Really thought
it was just it just took me by surprise. It
has a very very mean and kind of extreme sense
of humor, and it goes way farther than you think

(40:52):
it's going to, um and in a way that I
really enjoyed. You know, it does not pull punches and
it um it just goes into some kind of really
out there bizarre territory. There's also an amazing rippedtorn performance.
If he plays the dad he was just thinking of
hates his son with every five of his being. Uh,

(41:12):
check that up. Yeah, it's it's it's super super funny.
I will look. I'm looking now. Though Napoleon Dynamite was
two thousand four, I guarantee you that Ghost World was
a Yeah, there was. There was a kind of um.
It's kind of like when you know you have a
band like Nirvana or something, and they kind of do
something unique and original and new, and then like the

(41:34):
labels start signing like every other band from the town
that kind of sounds like them, but not as good.
I feel like a similar thing happened like you know
in Tarantino came through with like Reservoir Dogs and all
the clones and so on. I think a similar thing
happened with not just ghost World, but you know the
all the all the great any films that were happening
in like the nineties into the early two thousands, like

(41:56):
the Todd Solon's films as well. Like there was this
kind of um new sort of indie comedy that was
very very um made you a little bit uncomfortable, as
kind of edgy. Yeah, there were about the fringes and
there were there were a number of them, like the
Todd Salens films like Happiness and so on. Yeah, that
were that were original and unique and and and the

(42:19):
product of someone that was just expressing their own like
sensibility again, not trying to be weird, just being themselves. Um.
And then there's the derivatives, right, And I feel like
there were so many movies, these like kind of indie
movies and in the two thousand's that were deliberately going
for quirky, you know, deliberately going for that indie sensibility,

(42:40):
but from within like a Hollywood studio kind of um place,
and you could really tell the difference. You could really
spot the difference between like a genuine indie and like
a Garden State or something that's that's kind of faking it.
That's sort of been you know, like I like, did
you know when I saw it? But looking back and geez,

(43:00):
I like the Garden State when I saw it, But
that movie is really time I saw it. I mean,
my friend had the soundtrack and you know, um, but
it definitely was one of those that did not age
very well and you're embarrassed to say you liked it.
Like a few years later, that weird the Garden State
phenomenon has happened. There's been such a backlatch against that
Zach Brod and everyone's mad at him now because he

(43:21):
dates Florence Pugh. Yeah, everyone's like, what you're dating Zach
Brad And she's kind of like, yeah, he's awesome and
I love him, and I'm sure he's a fine guy
off off camera, you know, Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's that.
I've kind of bad for him. I've heard that is
so often the phenomenon in Hollywood is that the people
you meet that you kind of don't care for their
work tend to be so the nicest people, and then

(43:42):
when you finally meet someone who's like a hero and brilliant,
they can be a bit of a jerk heroes. I
mean that's that's that's a little bit of a subtext
and in the Ghost World to the idea that um
like an artist or or or somebody that is um
even just very deeply engaged with art like Seymour. H
we'll tend to be somebody that's a little bit of

(44:02):
a social outcast, a little bit socially awkward or or
has has certain deficiencies in that realm. For that nerd
record party, Yeah yeah, man, all of that scene like
that that party, and just all the all the small parts,
all the bit players in this in this movie are
just amazingly cast. Just there's not one that isn't a

(44:25):
face that you completely remember or has like one or
two lines, and they just like, uh, you know, stick
in your head, um with with just a few seconds
of screen time, like the guy that waits on the bench,
or the Satanist couple or Crispin Glover's Dade. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
this whole movie. I was talking to Emily last night,

(44:46):
she watched it again with me. I was like, every
every man in this movie is a weirdo or cream
like there were no I mean, I guess brad Renfro
is about the most court sort of normal, straight and
illustrate as and not gay, but just sort of down
the middle sort of man. Everyone else was weird or

(45:06):
a loser or a nerd. There's the guy guy for
good to say, there's a there's the guy at um
at the office, Um, uh Seymour's girlfriend's office. Yeah, and
and like the very like, you know, very very like
go get him the sales guy kind of type. And
I mean certainly he's he's very square, he's very normal

(45:29):
in that way. Um, but also a point absolutely a
cartoon character, like, uh, you know what what that kind
of person looks like to a Terry's wage off or
a Daniel Claus or whatever. Yeah, Like, uh, that scene
is so great And that's such a great example of
how wonderful this movie is. It is such a little
small thing. Some of this sort of feels Alexander Piney
a little bit because he has a similar knack for

(45:50):
just nailing the small stuff. But that little conversation that
Dana and here having on the phone, yeah about the walkthrough,
like maybe they won't even notice, which I think this
was the first time really understood what that was even about. Yeah,
that somebody buying a house and and he I think
this was pretty fist bump. Otherwise that guy would have
fist bumped like that's who that dude. Yeah, he's got

(46:10):
the suspenders and he's like, oh yeah, And it's so
funny they the dynamic between the two of them. Immediately
you're just like, oh, well, the two of you should
probably be together. You seemore probably shouldn't be in the
picture here because you YouTube doesn't really fits in a pot,
you know, um in the way like he's like, all right,
I'm gonna go start that paperwell, and he's like so

(46:31):
psyched about it, and you think, man, like the world
has made for those people who just like didn't do
that and just like be just love it. You know. Yeah,
there's such a satiric little eyeball on a lot of
these people. That guy, obviously the blues hammer people and
the people who like blues Hammer. Um, the when Scart
Johnson is looking at the blonde guy at the bar,

(46:53):
then he walks by, you guys out were some reggae tonight,
just like see I told you those are It's a
good lines. You guys up for some reggae, and it's
it's funny because, um I I do remember so clearly
being in that mindset as a teenager of kind of
you know, you're against the world, and um and just

(47:14):
part of maturing is is uh coming out of that
a little bit and having some humility. Yeah, thinking everyone
is uncool, does it make you cool? Right? Right? And
and you're not even as cool as you think you are. No,
you're not. And again like you're not as savvy as
you think you are, You're not as experienced as you
think you are, not as smart. Yeah, there's that great

(47:36):
moment where Laura Birch is having the yard sale and
she's just kind of at first, she's very much like,
I don't care all this stuff has to go, you know,
I'm I'm just gonna shed my old skin. I'm gonna
become this new person. And then the minute somebody wants
to buy like a cherished childhood kind of thing, she's like,
oh no, no no, no, that that one's not for sale.

(47:57):
Oh wait, Ane, that address is not for sale. And
that was a big deal in this movie. I think.
Another small moment that really kind of meant a lot.
She kind of, um, you realize that that child that
she was is still in her, you know, and she's
not really this fully grown up person that she wants
to become or that she wants to have people think
that she already is. That there's still a lot of

(48:19):
that youthfulness and vulnerability, and you know, the the fragility
I guess of of a child is is still very
much there. Yeah. You don't learn how to be vulnerable
until much later, if ever, you know some people that's
a hard thing for a lot of people. Um, certainly
not as a child. Yeah. One of my other favorite
lines in here is when she h listens to the

(48:42):
record that he recommends, it moves her. Let's skip James. Yeah,
she comes back and she's like, I want to another
record like that. He goes, there are no like that.
It's such a cool line that, like it just says
a lot about who that guy is. Yeah, Yeah, that
he such reverence, right, such reverence, and that he really

(49:03):
knows this music front and back. And it's like that
is that is a one off. There's there's nothing else
else out there like it. Really Yeah, and um, he
does these things in a way that's not like, oh boy,
I gotta teach this girl yea all this stuff. No,
he's he's enthusiastic about it. He loves it. Yeah, Like
when he first offers to bring the record down the
rare one, he's because there's a thing when people there's

(49:30):
two ways to share things with people, in excitement about
something and in a schooling type, right, And I'm always
much more turned on by people that are just excited
about something like he was, because he was like, I
mean I can go get it, yeah, but I don't
want to impose right right there. Seemed on cool, but
but it's right upstairs and I can be right back. Yeah, gosh.
And his reaction is so good when she pretends to

(49:52):
drop it and you just see his life flash before
his eyes when she catches it and split second later
it's funny too, just like even like a lot of
a lot of the record talk I can relate to
more on on the kind of the film side of shots,
but where he's saying, for instance, that um, I think
it's the compilation that she buys from him, and he's like,

(50:12):
you know, I actually know the guy who lent the record,
you know, for the original to do the transfer for
one of those sides, and like, I think it cuts
the way to SCARTT Johnson and she just like just
could not hate this anymore. And uh, I think even
in its kind of feigning interest at that point a
little bit to be polite, and but I'm you know,
that's that's the kind of thing I would say. I

(50:33):
would be like, oh, I know a guy who had
that print and criterion used to transfer the thing. Isn't
that cool? And to me that would be genuinely cool.
But a lot of people it's like, oh my god,
I don't care. Man. Well, that's also why you're on
the show. Let's talk a bit about the old man

(50:53):
at the bus stop. Um, that's one of the recurring
um sort of metaphors in the movie. Um, I don't know,
is he a non actor because he felt like a
non actor actually, but he Yeah. I mean I certainly
can't recall having seen him in anything else. And I
think in a way, if you put somebody that was
recognizable facing that role, it would not work totally. You

(51:15):
need you need somebody that that was like Ed Asner
or something. Yeah, exactly exactly. Um, I don't know why
I mean got him. But yeah, you you need somebody
who just has a face, a very memorable face, and
seems a little lost in a little bit sad. Actually,
he's been in a bunch of Wow man, great job
black Oh wow, nobody's he's just one of those guys

(51:37):
I think. Yeah, he did a fantastic job of inhabiting
this role. Yeah, so the idea there is there is
this man who, Um, I don't think he said it,
but I always got the feeling that he was waiting
on his wife or did he say that, I I know,
I think I think it's just kind of you can
infer maybe it's based on a on a real person
that um, I think it's Terry's Wigoff had encountered in

(51:59):
Um it's up to it was it was a homeless guy,
which we don't necessarily get the impression that this guy
in the movie is homeless just because he got the
suit on. He sounds like a little more put together. Um,
but the same same kind of idea. It was just
it was somebody who sat at the same um bench
that was for a bus line that was out of
service that was discontinued, and every time he would walk by,

(52:21):
there Um, he would he would see this guy. And
then one day the bus was in service and again
and the guy was not there anymore. And I got
kind of inferred. It wasn't necessarily that the guy like
got on this bus and went to some fantastical place, right,
It's more that he probably couldn't sit on that bench
anymore because now there's people coming all the time, and
it upset the whole like appeal of sitting on that

(52:44):
bench by himself had to go somewhere else. Yeah, what
do you take from this um stuff with Norman? I
know that I read up a little bit and saw
Daniel Clouds say that. He said, like over a hundred
people over the year say that the thought that Enid
getting on was a metaphor for her suicide. Interesting, And

(53:04):
he said when I first heard that, I was like,
where are you getting that? Yeah, he said, but I've
had like hundreds of people say this to me, so
there's clearly something there. Yeah. So maybe I don't know. Yeah,
I mean to me, I don't. I don't get that either,
but I do I do understand it. Yeah, Um, I
just don't think they were And I think he kind
of admitted he wasn't looking to make a bigger statement

(53:25):
there other than the sort of metaphor as it was.
I mean, I think, to me, it's just it's about change, right,
It's about um all the things that you hold onto
in life that you think are permanent, that are really
only temporary. And Enid is is um. She wants to
be this rebel and she wants to kind of the
this this kind of iconoclastic UM person that wants to

(53:49):
break with everything and just and just you know, go
somewhere new, experience something new. And yet she is holding
on as tight as she can to everything in her
life as it currently exists. So she you know, it
turns out like when her dad is going to get
back together with um, what's her name, may Lee? I

(54:11):
want to say Maryann, but it's not it. I think
it's Marlene. We'll just say the Great Terry Guard. Yeah. Anyway,
you know, when she's going to be moving in that
makes Enid cry when I mean so many things. Obviously,
when when the guy is finally not there at the
bus stop at the end doesn't make her cry, but
it's it's one of those things where it's like, damn,

(54:32):
everything is changing, nothing is is going to stay the same. Um,
And so to me, he he is that kind of
um personification of that of of something that you think
is going to be constant, permanent and always there and
is not. Is he Actually when when she says to him,

(54:53):
you know, um, you know I can always count on
you being here, and he's like, well that's just what
you think or something like that. You know, He's like,
I'm I I am going somewhere. Even though it takes
him a really long time to get there, he does
finally arrive wherever that place is. Yeah, and even maybe
like even this guy is moving forward, yeah, exactly, the
guy who is not moving forward at all in the

(55:15):
film and a lot of this movie, I think one
of the sort of themes is moving forward and your
relationships in your life. Um, high school is the is
the training wheels for the bicycle of life. Yes, Um,
so much of it did remind me of Alexander Paine. Yeah,
yeah that kind of vibe ye yeah, satirical wit um,

(55:40):
just little things like the dance troupe at the graduation,
at the beginning, Just little things like that. Yeah. The
the feeling of um of sort of it's it's a
kind of satire. It's a sort of um, you know,
somewhat misanthropic view I would say, of of of life
of people, um, but but also with a core of

(56:04):
humanity there as well. Yeah, this is one of those
movies that really like, sometimes you see a movie and
the characters live in that time and that's just fine.
This is one of those movies that makes you want
to know, like where is Enid twenty years on? Right? Right? How?
Like she's an artist? Yeah exactly. I feel like she
got to whatever it was, the next town over or

(56:27):
upstates somewhere, I don't know, San Francisco, because you know this,
so she's leaving, is your idea? I think so? Yeah,
I think that's the idea is because you know, she
she doesn't even graduate high school, right, that's right, because
she gets flunked in the in the in the summer
school art class, and so you know it's she'd have
to take it again, but she doesn't. She gets on

(56:49):
the bus and she goes off forever. So she's she's
obviously going to have you know, maybe she gets like
a g D or something at some point, but she
she's going to have a non traditional path. You know,
she already wasn't going to go to college. That was
never part of the plan. But maybe she becomes the
art teacher exactly. Yeah, maybe she becomes the art teacher.
Maybe she just becomes an artist full stop. Um, I

(57:09):
don't know. I feel like she would just she would
eventually fall into a group that was like minded, cool
people and um and and really just you know, flourish
hopefully and whatever that was. And what about Rebecca Rebecca,
I mean, I think I think she is she seems
like she's headed for the mainstream. Exactly. Yes, that is
that is like the big divide is that I think

(57:31):
Enid is going to remain somebody who has this kind
of alternative spirit, you know, green hair, yeah, and uh
and yeah, Rebecca is going to be someone who follows
a much more conventional traditional path. Um. And that's that's
really interesting because you see that. I think for Enid,

(57:52):
she's never really going to be able to accept somebody
like that as almost valid in a way. To her,
it feels like selling out. You know. It's like when
she says, um, I could just never imagine having like
a day job, spending all that time in an office,
you know. And Seymour doesn't say anything when she says this,

(58:13):
but of course you can. You can think in the
back of your mind, like, well, you know, what do
you think you're going to do. What do you think
you're gonna do? Yeah? Where where do you think you're
gonna end up? You're going to be what a famous
millionaire person or just had the coolest job ever? Yeah,
yeah everywhere. Likelihood of that happening is pretty slim. You're
probably gonna work in an office somewhere or you know,
outside or whatever. But it's it's not going to be

(58:35):
this charmed life where like you never have to kind
of grow up a little bit and do adult things.
It's like it's never going to be as easy as
it is right now. Exactly exactly do you think you're
having a hard time now? Yeah? High school graduate? Just wait,
you have no idea? Yeah, because you really don't have
responsibilities yet and bills to pay and the reality of um,
you know, as you get older, of of friends that

(59:00):
get sick and get addicted, and like, you know, as
you grow older, it's like all those bubbles are burst
at a more rapid rate older you get. It's it's
kind of like when when I first saw this movie.
I was like eighteen, and so I was going to
go off to college. I was going to study film.
And again I had this this since that you know, uh,

(59:24):
all all that sort of real world stuff was in
some way not going to apply to me. You know.
I was still kind of in that mindset that, um,
you know, certain certain like grown up things, these these uh,
these kind of um landmarks of becoming like an adult.
I didn't have to do right or I wasn't gonna
out to do and um. And it's funny now watching it,

(59:45):
you know, roughly at double the age before, because thirty
six now, so that's half a lifetime ago, and um
and and and just you know, being able to relate
so much more to the adults perspective, I can still
relate to the to the teenager perspective too, But it's
like now I can see both sides of that, and
you can almost see the kind of this the tragic

(01:00:08):
aspect of life in that in a way, both sides
are right, you know, and both sides are wrong too,
and and they're they're unreconcilable in some ways. You know.
It's I think it's right for for a young person
to have big plans, big dreams to be like that's
not going to be me, you know. Um, But then

(01:00:28):
there's also that complete validity of like when when Bob
Balaban says to her, you know, oh you could you
could still go to college. You could you could just um,
you could live here at home and you can go
to the community college and then after a couple of
years you could transfer into this other thing and very
like a reasonable adult, you know, it's not going to
be Um, it's not like a tough thing to do.

(01:00:49):
You just gotta put in the work and do it
and you'll be fine, you know. Um. But to her
it just seems like this impossible thing, like how could
I possibly still live at home and go to college?
That's not how it's supposed to work. And um, you know,
she she wants to She wants more from life. She
doesn't just want like what everybody else, the standard issue
kind of thing. And because she looks down on that,

(01:01:10):
you know, and and part of her growing up, part
of what we already see happening with Scott Johnson is
that she's already kind of accepted that and and moved
into that next phase of like we gotta buy stuff
for the apartment. You gotta be here at noon because
I had a lot of stuff to do. How are
you such a funk up? They got fired your first
day of work, you know, all those kinds of things. Um,

(01:01:30):
It's just very interesting to see the two perspectives because
I know, for me, like I didn't like my first
job was when I was probably two, maybe in a
little bit older. I was well into college by that
point before you had any job, for it, had any job. Yeah,
I had done like, yeah, see exactly, I mean I

(01:01:50):
had I had a plenty of friends who you know,
by fourteen fifteen sixteen, we're working multiple days a week,
you know, doing a lot of service jobs. I mean
even even during the school years sometimes but especially during
the summer. Yeah. And uh, And I was just kind
of like a free spirit, man. I I was not
I was off doing my own thing. And and I'm

(01:02:12):
I'm I feel very like, yeah, thankful in a way
that I got to do that, But but it absolutely
created this kind of tension in a lot of ways
between me and my friends who were doing other stuff.
We're doing we're starting to do the grown up thing.
We're starting to have those responsibilities, and I was still
sort of in this prolonged like adolescent thing. And um,

(01:02:34):
like I said, in a lot of ways, a lot
of my interests that I that I have even to
this day, I really fostered in those years where I
was getting seriously into film and music and um, learning
about cameras and all that stuff. I would have done
less of that if I had, like, you know, a
service kind of job to hold down, because I think

(01:02:54):
that sometimes that that puts you into so much more
of a mindset of just like, you know, I've gone
to work, I've done my thing. What else do you
want from me? I just want to relax or whatever,
you know. And um, so it was. It's the kind
of the split that happens there between the two characters
in the film. I think it's very very true to life. Yeah,

(01:03:15):
and this movie really just nails, like this isn't new ground,
uh Cinematically, there are a bunch of stories about this
kind of thing, growing up, friends growing apart because one
is growing up at a different rate, relationship between a
younger person and a mentor when and then they get

(01:03:39):
a significant other and then they're sort of pushed to
the side. Like we've seen all this stuff before, but
this movie does it so well and so authentically. Um,
even though it lives on not quite in reality, there's
something about it, Uh David Lynch, because his stuff is
like if David Lynch made more lighthearted films us the

(01:04:01):
kind of world I would expect, I could see that. Yeah,
because the similar sort of offbeat universe of weird characters
and so on, Like none of this seems real real life,
Like it's it's l A because I know it's l A,
but it's not said in l I never said. It's
never said that it's l A. Yeah, it's said in
just some American town. Uh, there are not and and
I read I noticed it and then read it that

(01:04:23):
they don't use a lot of extras when they're outdoors. Yeah,
they kind of empty the landscape of Yeah, and it
was a lot of times see a lot of people
walking around, not a lot of extra people. They're very
deliberately chosen. Like even even at the very end where
Enid's walking around by yourself, Um, there's like one guy
who walks back behind her, like eating an ice cream
cone or something in this big red shirt. Um, that

(01:04:46):
very clearly is put there to create a certain effect,
but you don't just see like crowds milling about and
so on. Yeah, I mean when they're in the bar
and restaurants and stuff like that, people obviously, but when
they're outside, it's kind of devoid of other humans. It's
the ghost world, you know. It's sort of like this
alienated sort of feel to the whole thing. Yeah. I
mean it's it's kind of like, um, even though it

(01:05:07):
is a big city. Um, it's it's that feeling of
like maybe you're still in your hometown, you haven't moved
away yet. Everybody else is already kind of gone, and
you're just they're trying to kind of like hold on
to something is going away, you know. Um. I think
the film, in terms of how they shot it, a

(01:05:27):
lot of the framings are very comic book inspired. I
would say the framings are they're very graphic. They're very
um they you know, the use of color and the
production design and so on is very very strong, is
very very you know. The the images just have like
a pop to them and a colorfulness to them that
I think is is definitely not naturalistic. It's something it's

(01:05:49):
a film that like a Wes Anderson film or something.
But a little more subtle than that. Um. I mean,
it's not beating you over the head quite like Wes
Anderson does. Um, and I like Wes Anderson not being critical.
But it's like, I don't know if you've seen the
trailer for the for the new one, but um, but
it's like the most west Ander Cinny thing you've ever
seen that and this this feels more it's it's it's

(01:06:10):
a midway point between the real world and complete fabrication. Yeah, totally. Yeah,
it strikes that right balance. Yeah, it's not so off
that it's Yeah, there's there's a there's a few there's
a couple of great shots in the movie. I think
that are are very much inspired by crumb Um. They're
they're the kind of the landscape shots of the city
where you'll have a cutaway. In one case it's when

(01:06:32):
they're in the car with brad renfro and the the
other it's just at the end when en It is
walking around by yourself. But of all these uh you know,
electricity lines and and uh and just all the all
the fast food restaurants and and billboards and just in
in in like smoggy air and cars and traffic and

(01:06:53):
um and and they shoot it on these really long
lenses that that um kind of flattened out the space
and create this this sort of um, you know, beautiful
tableau of like urban just you know, just a visual
kind of over overwhelming kind of character. And there's a
there's a very very um similar sequence in in Crumb

(01:07:17):
where it's called something like the Evolution of America or
something like that, and it starts with like this open
field and then you kind of see like a farm,
and you see like you know, a small house, and
things start to take shape, and then sooner or later,
like all the trees get cut down and the power
lines go up, and then it's just these kind of
like chain stores and cars and people wearing T shirts

(01:07:40):
and um and and it's there's this sense of like
you know, uh of like losing you know, something fundamental
about America and this kind of mourning for like some
earlier state that I think this film is also stepping
into a little bit. Yeah. Absolutely, it is that same
worldview of the PA cars and the crimes. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:08:03):
the edges of society consumerism um or anti CONSUMERSM. I
guess there's uh, there's even like a tick kind of
a verbal tick that um, I think probably came from
from Crumb. In in the documentary Crime, There's there's a
number of times where he says like Jesus, you know,
like that kind of and uh Enid does it in

(01:08:25):
this film, Scarlett I think does at one point. Seymour
certainly does it several times. He does very famously in
the uh family crossing the road scene Yes yes, yes,
which is a complete Crumb like rant, Yeah what are
you hypnotize? In the in the documentary when when they
just filmed Crumb out in public, he's like looking at
like what people are wearing, the music they're listening to,

(01:08:48):
and he's just like, I don't know what this is.
I can't I can't come out into this. This is
why I never go out, you know. Yeah, that's a
and I think Seymore even has one of those lines
like he says that a lot. Now I know, I
don't date. Now, I don't know, I don't leave the
house now, I know I haven't been anywhere months. Yeah, yeah,
it's this what the funk is wrong with everyone? He's like,
he's like, I can't relate to humanity. Yeah, But also

(01:09:10):
there's a self loathing to Oh, yeah, he doesn't think
he's better than, right, but I think he might be
a little better than But at the same time, he's yeah,
he's a loser. He's conscious that like these people will
never accept him, and even though he might think in
some larger sense he's the one that's in the right
because he's smart and he has these cool interests and yeah,
he's like developed a unique personality for himself. He's not

(01:09:33):
like a conformist type. But at the same time, there
is that sense of shame of like, I can't go anywhere,
I can't be with anybody. Um, nobody understands me. Nobody
is into the stuff that I'm into. I'm boring, I'm
not cool, I'm old. You know. All that stuff is
also going through his head. Yeah. Uh, So eventually they
sleep with each other, um, which is a very sort

(01:09:53):
of uncomfortable situation because of her age. Um, I guess
you know a lot of alcohol involved to Yeah alcohol. Uh, technically,
I guess she is of legal age and they mean
she might be seventeen. I don't know, but something they
definitely portray her more as an adult as far as
like I can make my decisions to do this and
it is. It is the summer after high school, so

(01:10:14):
most people have hit eighteen by then, I think. But
everything changes after that. And it's that like Skin Crawley
sort of scenario where he really did the right thing
for so long I was like, no, you're just a kid,
I can't do this. Um. And then he sleeps with her,
and then he sort of hang dog in love with her.
That's calling her over and over and it's just like,

(01:10:36):
I don't even do that. Even even like moments after
it's over, you know, they're in bed and he's like, wow,
I never expected that to happen. And then um, he's like,
you know, we're you serious. Early when you said that
thing about moving in, you can see the wheels turning.
He's thinking like, Wow, I'm gonna have this like really
cute young girlfriend and she's gonna move in and she's
like into the same stuff I'm into, and this is

(01:10:57):
just gonna be amazing. Yeah, he feels like he has.
It's like new lease on life kind of, and and
she's already like her her back is to him. We
can see in her eyes that she's like, I've made
a terrible mistake that I feel awful I've had that
feeling I shouldn't have done this, and now you know,
I'm gonna I'm gonna hurt this person and I don't
want to. Um, I've had that exact same feeling and circumstances.

(01:11:22):
It's terrible because when you make the leap to um,
have sex with someone you're friends with, which you know
that can happen, hanging out with someone a lot, it's
a long summer, you have a little bit to drink,
right right, right, Uh, it can go one of two ways,
and one way it can be like, well, you know,
that was fun, or or one of three ways that

(01:11:43):
was fun. But geez, what a couple, what a couple
of crazy kids laughing off for geez, maybe we're in
love or oh my god, I've ruined everything. Now it's awkward,
now it's weird. Yeah. Absolutely, And I feel like I've
had each of those things. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
That's just such a real human conditions, such a such
a human thing. And um, especially relationships, you know, in

(01:12:07):
in like a hetero context between men and women can
be so fraught with that kind of stuff. Even though
I think you know, we're not talking. Yeah, even even
though as like a you know, as a as a culture,
as a society, I feel like we've gotten to a
place where we are more accepting of these kinds of
like platonic friendships between men and women. Um, but there's

(01:12:28):
always that tension, you know, there's there's there's no denying that.
Um when you're when you're around somebody that much and
you're friends with him, it's it's the easiest sleep in
the world to kind of take that one step further
into like a romantic interest as there's when there's chemistry
and everything involved, it just happens. Uh. So I have

(01:12:49):
a few more favorite lines here. Ah, here you go
covered in delicious yellow chemical sludge. Man, I was, I
was really cringe here that scene this time because like
everything you do not do on your on your first
day of work while your supervisors like over your shoulder.
You've grown up, casey. Another one is a very quick

(01:13:10):
little line that you just over here, um, and I
think it's in the Nerd Record Party. Was when you
hear over here a conversation where one guy goes carpet
Oh no, no no, no, it's in the comments in the
where does the guy work? When he makes fun of
her with the green hair. Is that a Oh, that's
like the record store. The record store, that's like the

(01:13:30):
neo Nazi the pat character. He says, carpet beatles are
the only way to get the flesh off of corpse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
they're having just like the most awful conversation. Um, so great,
that's funny. I had never picked up on this before,
but the name of that comic book shop is zene Ophobia,
like z i nyphobia. But they really do appear to
be like a low key like neo Nazi sect or something. Yeah,

(01:13:53):
because they're talking about you know, they're they're gonna dissolve
bodies with carpet beatles, and um, yeah, it's there's there's
there's something dark going on there. Yeah. And that's sort
of again with his way golf and clouds there offbeat world,
Like it didn't feel like they threw that in there
to be anything other than like, man, this is kind

(01:14:13):
of funny. Well, it's kind of like, I do feel
like there's a subtext in this movie of um, the
Dark Side of America. Let's say she have like the
um you know, there's at one point in it is
um when when she sees the poster for the for
the Kin's Chicken and she's like, seymours, is this yours?
Do you like this? It's like are you a klansman

(01:14:34):
or something? It's like, yeah, Um, you know you have
that reference to the clan, you have the reference to
kind of the racism that was much more mainstream in
the past. Um, you have the neo Nazis sect and
so on. There there is this this kind of feeling
of like, um, America is not all it's cracked up
to be kind of and and I think uh enid

(01:14:55):
Is is aware of that as well. That's part of
what informs her worldview that like the surface that we
see is kind of bs and there's a lot underneath
it that we don't talk about, but is there nevertheless,
but we all kind of ignore just to get along
and polite society. But she's she's really interested in this
idea of like authenticity and so to her that's also inauthentic,

(01:15:17):
the idea that um, that I don't know, we can
transcend that stuff or that we don't have to talk
about because it makes us uncomfortable and so on. She
just wants to put a spotlight on that stuff. That
that other people want to just avoid, you know. Yeah,
And I think that's um that that's certainly UM kind
of a deeper subtext in in you know, certainly in

(01:15:37):
Crum as well, in in the way that he returns
over and over to these images that are very racially
charged and so on. UM. And some people, you know,
maybe perhaps validly have interpreted it at times as tipping
over into kind of racist caricature. But it is ultimately
I think his way of um almost like vomiting up

(01:15:58):
the poison of you know, American history of of this
kind of mentality and so on. But well, that's for
sure what Ena did because with her, you know, her
are putting it on display like that on display and
she and and that's what I love about Aliana Douglas
is she very much understands. Yeah, yeah, and she fights
for She's like, you're not taking that down right, She's like,

(01:16:19):
this is her statement as an artist saying we shouldn't
bury this in the closet. Yeah, we should hang it
on a wall and talk about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's
really interesting. It reminds me I got the opportunity to
go to South Africa, to Johannesburg, and there are places
there where they still have the white zombie signs up.
And it's not because it's a white's only place. It's
because remember what happened, don't don't forget interesting. They the

(01:16:42):
big prison in Johannesburg where they held Nelson Mandela for
a while. Gandhi was there too. Um, they didn't tear
it down, they turned it into a museum. Well that's
sort of a very modern quandary with whether it's Confederate
monuments preserve a Nazi Germany just just oh yeah, there's

(01:17:03):
you know, bunkers like a parking parking lot. It's not
even there's no marker or anything. Yeah. Um. Well the
thing with the Confederate markers though, is those are like
past Civil War. Yeah, it's it's honoring yeah them, and
not like, hey, remember what happened and how funked up it.
And also like a lot of them were built in
like the nineteen fifties, you know, as it kind of
exactly civil rights exactly. But um, that that that's definitely

(01:17:25):
like a deeper theme in the movie, I think, um
absolutely yeah. And let's um, I guess let's finish up
by kind of talking about some of the music. The
score is great. So this kind of reminds me the
scene that's in the video store in the background. I've
never noticed this before, but you know, as they're walking
past all the VHS tapes, um in the bottom of
the frame at one point is if you know the

(01:17:47):
poster design, you will you will spot it. It's Eyes
Wide Shut. And and it's interesting because in Terry's white
Off's next film, Bad Santa, he he uses the music
from Eyes Wide Shut as like the being and I
think the credit song for that movie, and I think
it comes up during It's like this waltz um that
that kind of comes up several times in the movie

(01:18:08):
and for this movie in in Uh. In some of
the notes for the for the Criterion Editionwagov talks about
how when he talked to potential composers, the only point
of reference he could give them was like Barry Lyndon
Eyes Wide Shut. And once he said Barry Lyndon, it
really clicked for me. The piano music that's in Ghost

(01:18:30):
World is very very much like the piano track that's
in Barry Lyndon. Several times, um, it's this very spare
like dune Dune, Dune dune dundun, you know, uh, and
there's some some some string instruments going along with it
as well. And in Ghost World, it's it's almost the
same thing. It's it's it's a different melody, but it's

(01:18:51):
that same feeling of a very sparse piano where each
note is kind of allowed to to reverberate and so on,
and uh in just like a kind of a sparse
string accompaniment around it. And Zagov talks about how, uh,
he did not want to do what everybody was kind
of expecting him to do musically for this movie, which

(01:19:14):
I think if you read between the lines, you know,
people were expecting, the studio was expecting something a little zanier,
a little more comic register. And I kind of feel
like if if he had gone that route, there probably
would have been some ukuleles that probably, you know, it
would have been that whole like something quirky enough, exactly exactly,
And he was just like, I want to go as
far in the other direction as from them. And when

(01:19:37):
he when he told the the guy who ended up
composing the music for this movie, when he first kind
of you know, gave him his concept, the idea, the
composer's reaction was, well, I kind of think you're crazy
and I don't think that's gonna work, but you know, anyway,
I'll think about it. I'll see what i can do.
And then a few days later, um, when when Zago
kind of told him listen to berry Lynn and listen
to what chot and just kind of do something in

(01:20:00):
by that if you can. Uh, he was apparently like
driving this car somewhere and had this idea come to
him and invited swag Off over to listen to it,
played it for him on the piano and like that
was it. Spot He was like, yes, that is exactly
what I'm looking for, and it's so interesting. I love
I love that. Um. You know, music is something that's
so hard to communicate in verbally, and so when you're

(01:20:20):
a director and you're trying to tell the composer what
it is, you're looking for things you mentioned other things
or or it's almost like you can't define it positively,
So you have to define it just by everything. It's
not going to be until you arrive finally the thing
that feels right. Can even articulate why it's right, you
just know it is. But he he said, um, it's
his choices of music are are like that. Um, for instance,

(01:20:42):
like the Skip James track Devil Got My Woman, Um,
some of the other blues that's in the movie. Um.
It was like it was just a matter of putting
up as many tracks against those scenes as they could
until finally something clicked and there was no rhyme or
reason to it. It was just like, yeah, that music works. Finally.

(01:21:02):
It took like a hundred times, you know, hundred choys
to get there, but we got there. So cool. Yeah, man,
a great movie. I was so glad to get to
watch it again. Uh. It was a movie I loved
when it came out and had I think it's probably
at least twice maybe three times back then, and and
like a Catcher in the Rye, it is one that
over the years changes a little bit. Like I bet

(01:21:25):
in ten years, my prediction is you won't identify with
Enid at all interesting interesting. I'm just gonna find her insufferable.
Kind of maybe I didn't find her insufferable, but I
was certainly like, you're a bit of an asshole. You
better be nice to that guy on that bench. Um,
just to pit in my stomach when she was sucking
with Seymour because it's not funny or cool. It's like

(01:21:49):
you get older and you're like, no, be kind and
be empathetic. But that's that's the thing when you're when
you're young at that age, cruelty seems funny, I know,
you know, and and there's a real power in that
that I think they even realized they have right, right,
And yeah, it's not until years later they realized, like, whoa,
Like that was serious stuff that was that was going on,
even though we thought it was funny. Yeah, it's really not.

(01:22:11):
And I was never like that. I might have. You know,
I'm not saying I was some perfect kid who just
gave credit to everyone and thought everyone was amazing and
had potential. But I was definitely not this. Yeah, I'm
somewhere in the middle. Yeah, this is definitely um towards
towards the extreme magic things in terms of they're just
mercilessly mocking everything and everyone. Yeah. Alright, man, good stuff,

(01:22:34):
great discussion, as always, look forward to the next one.
It's been a while since we've had a solo effort
out of you. I know, we had all those round
tables to try enjoy it a lot too. Yeah, those
are fun, but this good. This is my favorite though,
just like the one movie, The kind of Deep. Yeah,
we've got two cups in here though, all right by everybody.

(01:23:07):
Movie Crushes, produced, edited, and engineered by Ramsay Hunt here
in our home studio at Pont City Market, Atlanta, Georgia.
For I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.

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