Minnie Driver on Tootsie

Big news! Minnie Driver popped in to chat about her movie crush, Tootsie!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Movie Crush production of I Heart Radio. Hey everybody,

(00:29):
and welcome to Movie Crush Friday Interview edition. And everybody,
I am looking at my laptop zoom screen at the
face of many drivers. Chu. Hi there, how are you?
I'm all right? How are you? I'm great. Uh. We'll
reveal the big reveal later. But I recorded yesterday with

(00:53):
Many for something else, and so we're old friends now.
Practically that was a really great conversation. I'm not going
to lie that was it was. It's fun to have
those these days. I think it is maybe that the
whole notion of um conversing with each other in these
times of separation. UM, maybe it'll be like a whole

(01:14):
new thing, a whole new thing moving forward with a
better normal. Right, Yeah, I mean that is that a
description of evolution? I'm on some level, you know, moving
forward with a with a better normal. Yeah, I mean
it's your feels like we've got to get slingshot into
something something else and hopefully better. Yeah. And just to

(01:39):
put that in context, everybody, Uh, the day that we're
recording is uh, the twenty one of January, the day
after Joe Biden has President Joe Biden has taken office,
and we stopped recording yesterday about an hour before the inauguration,
and uh, you know, I know everything is still sort
of the same for now, but it sure feels more

(02:03):
positive to me. To me too, I found it very moving.
Not j Loo. I didn't find Jlo moving. I found
Jlo like fabulous, But I found it to be extraordinarily moving.
Seeing seeing Doug m Hoff holding the Bible for Kamala Harris,

(02:23):
seeing a man holding the Bible for a woman being
sworn in, it just did something for me, the little
girl that I was, the interested in politics person. It
felt like we really were carving a new path. So
that was very exciting. Did you see her in the
Senate when she had to announce her own resignation, I

(02:46):
was very funny. I didn't. I didn't see it. I
read the opera that she wrote in the San Francisco Chronicle,
but I didn't. Why what happened, Well, I mean just
for as far as official business. She had to resign
from the Senate and as Vice president, and I think
had to announce the new uh not the new hirings.
I mean it's not a Fortune five company, but had

(03:07):
to announce the new um like we're knocking ass off,
and then who was who was coming in, who was leaving?
And she had to announce, you know, Kamala Harris uh
resigns from the Senate. And then she just started cracking
up and said that was really weird. She just got
such a great smile and personality, like human human. She

(03:28):
not a she not a a strange automaton. She a
human person. She is human and a boy how about
Lady Gaga? Wasn't that great? Oh my gosh, you know
my boyfriend, my boyfriend's mom. She was like, oh, I
didn't you think Madonna was great? Adorable? That was Lady Gaga.

(03:50):
She was like, well, you know, she was fabulous too.
It was human. I mean, that was It was some strange,
beautiful pageantry, but truly beyond President Biden and Vice President
Kamala Harris, that that day belonged to Amanda Gorman. That
that woman is one of the most I had the

(04:10):
pleasure of hearing her. I was am seeing an event
for women, a women's event a couple of years ago,
and she she came and she I don't know what
the correct way of saying what she does because reciting
her poetry seems super formal and weird, and I'm I'm
not cool enough to sort of say that whatever the
kids would say that. I watched her and there is

(04:32):
there's something incandescent about her because she is so connected
to what she is saying, not to the effect that
it's having. I mean, as a performer, you get a
pretty you get a pretty clear nose for when someone
is trying to manipulate an audience, and that girl is
just connected to something that articulates truth and beauty in
a way that I've rarely come across. She is magnificent

(04:57):
and she looked fine. I mean it was a look
great and just um. I don't know when anyone starts
to get down on generations to come behind them, I
get really, I mean, it's easy to dunk on millennials
and gen Z or whatever they're calling everything. But I
have great hope for the future, and I think they're

(05:18):
they're doing it better than than gen X did. I mean,
I'm proud gen X her, but I don't know, we
were pretty lazy and slightly hungover gen X. I feel fit, yeah,
I mean I feel like the most I did was
like overpluck my eyebrows. It feels like, really that's my signature,
like a lot of really dark red lipstick, thin eyebrows,

(05:39):
and like a bad attitude. I'm like watching a lot
of Ethan Hawk movies. Well it seems bad. Who didn't,
were you goss ever? No? Hell No, I had crazy hair.
I was my nickname at school was Slash, like I had.
I looked bananas. I look like a firework. It exploded
on my head. But that's the best here though. I
know it gives and it takes, give it and take
it away. But you did have the confidence to pull

(06:01):
it off. Like I really, I looked like a muppet.
I was called animal. I was called Slash. And there's
this there's this hexagonal coin that we have in England
called a fifty p which is basically like fifty cents.
And I was called fifty face because I've got this
this really the best face. Well, thank you so much.
I mean, you know, you know my face, but it's

(06:22):
it's definitely got a you know, super kind of well
apparently hexagonal. Um. But yeah, kids, kids totally are you know,
kids are awful, and but they they give you something
to push up against. I mean, if you're lucky and
they don't kill you. Where was this going to Was

(06:42):
in m in deepest darkest England, in the countryside, at
this truly amazing school that I went to that I
have to say, you know, for all of them, for
all of the names and the whatever. It was the
the absolute breeding ground of everything that I love and
everything that I've been able to do in my life. So, um, yeah,

(07:03):
I loved my school. No, not at all, but it was.
It was very progressive and when we were there, we
were about self sufficient, so we did a lot of
um uh, taking care of the animals, taking care of
the farm buildings. You would have what's called outdoor work
as part of your curriculum, so you'd have double maths

(07:25):
and then you'd have outdoor work where you'd be on
a tractor setting up whatever fields were going to have
crops planted in them, um, picking fruit in the summer. Um.
And it's there's this amazing pottery so you would go
and when plates and bowls were broken, you would go
and make more, and then you'd go and have a
math class. And it was super academic but also um,

(07:49):
very very much community orientated and about teaching you about
being in the world and skills other than mathematics, reading
and science, which of course obvious really important. But I
spent a lot of time in the fields. Yeah it
was great. Do you still have a connection to the
country in nature? And yeah, huge, huge, I'm it's that's

(08:12):
my that is my church. The ocean and and being
out in nature is pretty much everything. It's where I
really like to be all of the time. UM. Clear
that up. Do you like to go camping or do
you like sitting on a a lovely verandah overlooking the countryside.

(08:33):
I mean, I'll do but I love camping. I love camping,
but I really like being in bodies of water. I have. UM,
I was kind of famous in my family for always
wearing a swimsuit under anything and everything. Yeah, and I
did it. I got I got a call from when I,
you know, first moved to Hollywood, when I was in

(08:54):
my early twenties, and you know, I was being invited
to these parties and like I got, I got a
call from my agent going you know that party you
went to. Um, the lady was like a little word
that you Um, you kind of cleared all of her
floating votives and then dived in, but I just just like,
I've kind of done the party. I didn't know have
anything to say to anybody. I didn't really know anyone.

(09:17):
I've been introduced as Mandy dry Fust by this guy
who apparently worked from my agency, and I was like,
you know, screw this. I'm just so I took my
dress off and I folded it very neatly, and I
did clear the votives away, and then I dived in
and I went swimming, and it was great. Good for you. Yeah,
I started a pool party. Uh no, nobody else did.
Everybody looked horrified. But then I bought a trailer by

(09:41):
in in Malibu, where I've lived for about twenty two years,
UM in this mobile home park, and I serve every day,
or I did UM and swim every day. I'm a
I'm a big cold water swimmer. It's are you. I
love cold water and I'm a bit of a all
or bear, so I like cold weather and cold water.

(10:02):
I mean, I'm ready for spring and summer when it comes.
But I'm not afraid to get in cold water at
all too just experience, like I've been in some very
very cold mountain lakes in Colorado. When people just thought,
you know, my friends and I are crazy. But it's
it's exhilarating. It really like makes you feel so alive.
It definitely does. It's um, it's really amazing. I've been

(10:26):
watching in London we have this, um, this big body
of water called the Serpentine in the middle of Hyde
Park and and people go in it when it's the
water is like it's two degrees, When it's two degrees
santig so it's minus whatever, and you're I mean it's
it's insanely cold. You can go in for like forty

(10:47):
five seconds. But people come out and there's all these
stories of um genuine like healing happening, like physically of
the hearts becoming stronger and lungs becoming clearer. And UM.
I found mentally swimming because I saw m quite long distances,
not when it's super super super freezing, but just generally

(11:08):
in the Pacific, and I never found any therapy or meditation.
It was better for everything than go and then swimming
for you know, a solid mile in the Pacific. That's amazing.
Have you seen my octopus teacher? Yeah? I have, Yeah,
I have. I totally get it. I get it. I'm
I am crazy about octopuses. I really, I really am

(11:34):
crazy about them. I could never eat one because they
are They are so clever and so brilliant and the
closest thing that we have to an extraterrestrial brain in
terms of like our evolution. Um that they're extraordinary. I
can't believe that they only live for a year, but
a year doesn't really mean anything to them. It's just

(11:55):
it's just existence. We can't put our human ship on them. No,
we do that all the time to everything. What was
your family creative? Like, how did when did you decide
you wanted to act? Was it something that you had
siblings that did our parents that were into it, or
was it all you? You know what? I think, I
really do believe it was all me. According to my parents,

(12:15):
it was all me. It was from a very very
very young age. Um probably I think I devised my
first like proper show play when I was about six
and I realized, I very very immediately realized that there
is something truly transactional about an audience and a performer

(12:38):
and that clearly they were having a really good time.
And I absolutely loved the creation of that good time.
So it it never felt like a job, but it
it immediately became an ambition to figure out a way
of doing that as much as possible for as long
as possible. To like school plays and that whole deal. Yeah,

(12:59):
all the school plays and I'm at the school I
went to. We had a we had an enormous um.
Like the older kids would direct the younger kids in
in short plays. They would make weird short films on
Super eight. So you were you were constantly kind of
being like when I was, um, you know, eleven or twelve,
I was being directed by like sixteen fifteen, sixteen year

(13:20):
olds and so you were constantly making stuff um And
I remember one of my earliest memories was we were
studying Um As You Like It by Shakespeare, which has
the Forest of Arden in it. And we arrived for
the class and the teacher said right, and he gave
us these ordinance survey maps and compasses, and he said,

(13:42):
I'm going to put you into groups, and I'd like
you to go out and scout the forest of Arden.
And we're in the middle, like we're in the middle
of the country side. We were like, okay, So off
we went in the groups of four to find a
place where the idea was that we would all decide
what the best location was and then we would build
like like rough seating and we would rehearse and we

(14:03):
would put the play on there for the rest of
the school and it was so cool. It was honestly
one of the most amazing experiences. It's how it's how
it gets into your bones when you it's imaginative and
you love it on every level. Yeah, and it's a
it's a it's a shared experience, you know, it's um.
I mean writing is solitary, that aspect of it is

(14:25):
for the most part, unless you're collaborating with probably one
other person. But um, putting on a play or or
a movie or a television show. I used to work
on film cruise. That's what I used to do in
my previous life. It's like a p A and then
art department stuff. And you know, there's something about people

(14:45):
getting together with a common goal that's just great. It
is a family, is completely, I mean, it's it is.
It's so familial. It is such a community. I love
the hierarchy of it. I love that everybody, everybody there
to do a specific job, but you all have the
same goal. Um, and I love the cameraderie. I mean,

(15:07):
I've got to say I've been told off so many times,
Like you know, in l A, Like when I'm walking
around the streets and if i see some cable, you know,
coming down the street, and I'm like when I'll like
follow the cable and I'll see there's a crew, and
I'll be like, oh, well, maybe I know someone, you know,
And I a little shuffle around and sure enough, like
I'll know some whether it's a grip or an actor
or a p A or the director or someone. And

(15:31):
I just I love it. It feels it feels very
much like home to me. Sets. Yeah, for sure, it's
like summer camp. Is it is. And that's why people
sort of get in trouble with sort of with with
behaving badly, is because they think that it's like fairyland
and all the rules of you know, all of the

(15:51):
societal contracts no longer exists, and that you can behave
with impunity and it's just not true. But you get
your hand slapped a few times, hopefully you learn that, right.
Cinematic community. I remember people talking about cinematic community. Cinematic
kind of do whatever the hell you want. And it's
like you really can't. But I remember like falling in
love with some actor on some movie and like this

(16:12):
wizened old costumer saying, honey, you know that that relationship
does not have legs. And I was like, what do
you mean. She's like, it doesn't have legs. It's not
walking off the set and I was like, no, no, no,
I'm pretty sure he's going to marry me. That's probably
really hard though, to play in love. And uh, I

(16:34):
don't know. I mean, I certainly would fool myself into
thinking that stuff is real. You it is. It is
an absolute occupational hazard falling for people within the confines
of a film set, you know, in any department. It really,
it really is, because it's you are so um. I

(16:58):
don't know exactly what it is, but there is there's
just this weird idea of like you're you're all creating
something and you're all together all the time, and there
is this weird thing of the rules don't apply, but
you know they don't. Everyone there is doing something they're
passionate about, and passion begets passion, and you know, it's
just the way it works. I think, yeah, yeah, exactly,

(17:19):
have you ever wanted to direct. Yeah, definitely, I definitely do.
I'm actually writing a short film at the moment that
I'm going to direct. Yeah. I mean I say that.
I say it so that it will happen. I say
it like that, not just that I have a big
pile of money sitting around that is, you know, cordoned
off waiting for me to make this film. I'm going

(17:41):
to have to struggle to make it. But yeah, that's
the idea. That's great. I've watched for a really long time.
I've watched really amazing directors direct, and I love actors
and I know about acting. So I really believe that
we're a strong first idea and in in excellence in photographer

(18:01):
you know, and a modicum of humidity and intelligence that
I actually probably could do it. I'm sure you could.
I mean, so much of it I think is first
of all, just knowing the ins and outs and as
an actor for so long, like you're constantly working, like
you know the ins and outs like the back of
your hand. And then I think the rest is communicating

(18:23):
like a human being to people and knowing you know.
I've found also like with you know, actors who are
just so weird, so weird and they're just full of
like you. You have to understand that, like actors come
at everything from a point of deficit, even though to
the outside world it looks like they're just these complete, glamorous,

(18:45):
amazingly you know, lucky, fortunate, beautiful people. But they have
massive fistures in them, which is why they like acting,
because they get to be something other than the faulted
person that they feel themselves to be. UM. But I've
noticed that they're really great directors. They understand, have compassion,

(19:05):
don't really judge each of the different actors. They don't
they don't direct in a sort of blanket. In fact,
that the bad directors I've worked with, whether they were
famous or not, are the ones who sort of like
one size fits all direction. I supposed to really knowing
what it is that is going to elicit what it
is you need from that particular individual. UM. Acts are

(19:26):
quite fragile. Um, what's it like when you have a
bad director? I feel like on the show when I
talked to actors and talking about the great experiences, But
what do you do when you get on a job
and you realize early on, like oh shit, you find
an ally and you find an ally. I've actually never
have never had a terrible director where I didn't also

(19:46):
have an amazing ally who became a great friend and
stayed and and and basically they would be I would go,
you know, funny if it happened quite recently and there
was another actor and I just out to him first
of all, am I nuts? Or is this person like
a nightmare? And they were like no, no, no, no,

(20:06):
you're totally on the money. Yeah, I know, nightmare. I
and I and I said what do I do? And
they really they really helped me formulate a plan because
you can't just dig your heels in and go, oh,
well I hate this. You've got to get the job done.
So it's like, well, how how am I going to
do this when this is hard? And it's interesting when
you form an alliance with someone, they help you get

(20:29):
what you need, do what you need to do. Trick
the director. That was always that was really fun. It
was like tricked them into thinking that you're doing what
they're telling you to do, and then do exactly what
you want to do UM and also not react to
UM because a lot of it is insecurity and posturing.
I found with directors when directors aren't great. It's because

(20:51):
they themselves are fearful and they think they have to
throw their weight around in order to be heard or
acknowledged as in quotes powerful. So yeah, I would always
find a friend who would help me manipulate the situation
to my advantage. And imagine when you have a great
director in a great cast and crew, is it it's
still very hard work. You know that hours are brutal

(21:13):
and it's tough, But when that magic is happening, does
it even feel like work? No, it's not. I mean,
it's absolutely true. There have been you know, there have
been those I would say three forty five in the
morning is when when your body just wants to sort
of shut down, and if you've particularly been doing sort
of action stuff and you are exhausted. But there are

(21:34):
these there are those moments when there is an amazing
director that you and everybody else you sort of reconnect
with how incredible it is to be there and how
happy you are, and it's sort of like a shot
in the arm. Um. Yeah, I've I've been really lucky.

(21:56):
I don't haven't really had too many crap experiences. I've
had more all great experiences. That's great. I'd love to
talk about a few movies in particular. Um, Circle of
Friends really kind of launched you as your first big,

(22:19):
high profile movie, which is funny because it wasn't a
very big high profile movie. But I think it just
won the hearts of so many people and it just
kind of became one of those small movies that broke
out and really put put you on the map in
a big way. What was that like for you? Oh?
And it was nuts. I mean it was it was.
It was amazing. Actually it wasn't. It wasn't nuts like

(22:40):
it was nuts with good Will hunting because it was
so funny to me, and so it was all so enjoyable,
I guess because it was this small movie and like
coming to Hollywood and you know, I I've gained some
weight to play to play that role, and when I
arrived in Hollywood, I was just sort of back to
my normal my normal genes, my normal self. But the

(23:04):
people in Hollywood thought that was like the craziest magic
trick they'd ever seen. They were like, oh my god,
look at you. And I was like, yeah, I'm just
normal And it hadn't really been um, you know, my
gaining the way for Circle of Friends, and it wasn't

(23:26):
really that much. I put on what we call a
couple of stone, which I think is yeah, no, actually
I put it like thirty pounds, and my brother would
wake me up in the He would make me up
in the middle of the night and make me eat
a Mars bar on a boat of pasta. That's how
I get amazing. It was really fun. It was. That's
pretty funny in the middle of the night when your

(23:47):
metabolism is just soaks all that stuff in. Yeah, and
I get Patter Karna, the director, Oh my god, he
got so angry with me once when we were filming
because like Chris o'donald was staying in like the fancy
golf club. We were all in this brilliant, gorgeous, tumbling
down sort of stone bed and breakfast, me and Saffron

(24:07):
Barrows and Geraldy no Roar and um Colin Firth and
and Chris was staying in like the fancy golf club.
So we went there to kind of go and hang
out in the spar and like use the gym, and
Patter Connor saw me on a treadmill and he was like,
get off the chadmill. Got to be fatuatedot Jesus, who's
so annoyed with me? And I was like, oh, come on,

(24:29):
also have to be healthy. We just want to be
how this want to have fun. I don't know, everyone
else is doing stuff. I want to do something. Um.
But it was fun, It's all I remember at that time.
It was fun making that film. It was fun coming out.
It was fun people loving that film. It was just
it was everything good. And that the fact that it
has stayed the stalwart, the star placeholder for so many

(24:51):
women and so many people. Um, that's that's that's that's
pretty great. You know, it's pretty great that people have
a big smile on their face when they talk about
that movie. It's a lovely film. It's uh. I remember
seeing it back then. I worked at a sort of
the little alternative video store in college, and um, you know,
any anything indie at that point, that was when I

(25:13):
was really just drinking all that stuff in, like foreign films,
indie films, and that was that was both, I guess.
But um, yeah, seven was just a bit of a
big year for you. Uh. And in fact, you're the
only guest I've had I'm almost positive that has had
your movies as other guest favorites Big Night, which is

(25:36):
one of my favorite movies. I did a an episode
with The Stranger Things Guys with David Harbor and Joe
Kierry and Brett Gelman, and they collectively picked Big Big Night.
And then the comedian Hari Conda Boloo. Yeah, his favorite
movie is Gross point Blank. He's obsessed with that movie. Yeah.
He's told we know each other over Twist. Yeah, and

(25:58):
he's told me that. And I love these I love
those films like I love Big Night and I love
Gross point Blank hugely. And there are so many there's
so many stories from both those films that are the
other etched into they're etched into me. I used to um.
We filmed in a in with Big Night before they

(26:21):
turned the Chelsea Piers in New York into UM this
crazy huge sports EMPOREUM. There were these um warehouses, which
I think Law and Order which might already been shooting
they would use some of them, but they were not.
They were just spaces like there was no a c
There was basically a couple of plugs, you know, you

(26:42):
could get some electricity going. It was boiling hot and
we shot Big Night in August which has you know,
it's its own nightmarish. Um. Uh, what's the word. It's
it's his own nightmarish temperature August and New York, and
I remember Isabella Selini and I were wearing these satin
dresses and we were sweating so profusely. You could see

(27:05):
these huge sweat stains, and no one knew what to do.
They were like, oh, you know, what can we do
to get so sorry? Putting eyes cubs on the back
of your night And then then she said, somebody give
me a water bottle with a spray, and so they
gave her like this water bottle with the spray, and
she just like she sprayed down my whole dress, so
it just was a shade darker and it was just damp.

(27:26):
And then she did the same with her dress and
then we shot up the scene. And you never know
to meet someone like Isabella Rossellini, I mean, do you
just freak out? Yeah, no, totally. I'll tell you what
I did. I'll tell you exactly what I did. She
would do her own hair and makeup, um, and I
would get there. She'd get there at like fivet and

(27:47):
I would get there um and I would just sit
in her dressing room and I would sit on the
floor and as she was putting on her makeup, she
would just tell me stories. She would just tell me
stories about Italy. She tell me stories about her mom.
Did she tell me stories about her children? About her life?
Like one of the most lyrical, beautiful, uh iconic people.

(28:11):
And the fact that whatever I was twenty four, like,
I knew, I knew it, and I think I said
this t yesday, I said, I would sometimes like pinch
my wrist as I was listening to going this is happening,
This is happening, And I had no way of recording
anything because obviously it was you know, it was the
dark ages. You're in the moment, like the sort of

(28:35):
the good old days. You know, it really was. She
was She's pure she is pure magic. She really is.
She is pure magic. She's everything that you would think
that she is. She is all that, And I think
and then a lot more. That's amazing, m with gross
point blank. You'd probably get a kick out of that
episode with Harry, by the way, because we just like
gush and gush for any but one thing in particular.

(28:58):
It strikes me about that movie is starting with the
Martin comes back scene at the radio station, and then
until things get kind of serious towards the end. I
feel like every interaction that you and John Cusack had
it felt like a dance, the way that you two
were with each other, and it was it was a

(29:19):
little unusual, it was slightly off kilter and how people
communicate in life, Like it wasn't real like real life
that you were watching. It was this sort of little, fun,
fairy tale dance. And I'm just curious about that, like
how much of that was improvised or how how that
chemistry worked. Oh boy, Well, you know, chemistry with a

(29:43):
with another actor is you know, it's not something you
can make up. It's either it's sort of either there
or not. And Johnny and I had a very very
particular chemistry. I think that's why he cost me, because
he knew that I could I could play in that
slightly absurd place that he that he likes to play in.

(30:06):
And then you had these guys who he grew up with,
Steve Pink and DVD even Centers, both extraordinarily like gifted,
brilliant minds, and they were writing the script and the
script I remember even by the read through the script
wasn't right that the script wasn't there, and Johnny went
to Joe Roth and said, let us will you let

(30:29):
us improvise? Will you let us improvise? Just let us
let us let us do a couple of days and
then watch the dailies and see if you think we
can pull it off, because I don't think the script
is working. And God bless her rock, he said, yeah,
give it a try. So we would we would like
have the scenes. Someone will be on the computer, would
be in some whatever hotel room in Pasadena, and someone

(30:51):
beyond the computer, and everyone will just be throwing out
ideas and improvising, us kicking around what the shape of
this scene would be like when he comes to the
radio stage. And it was like, okay, yeah, the whole
all of it. I mean so much of it was improvised.
It's it's hard to like the the flying scene, the

(31:12):
scene when he comes. Johnny was saying, we need somebody
to show that they have this history. But it can't
just be like exposition as to be something that shows
that they've known each other. And I said, my dad
used to do this airplane thing with me, like whenever
he'd come back from a trip, we do this thing,
and I guess it was a way of us sort
of rebonding and I was like, let's do that, and
He's like, okay, let's do that. So it was it

(31:34):
was best idea wins and what's the funniest and so much.
I'd love to. I'd love to. I don't think I
haven't got an original script of gross point blank anymore,
but I bet you dev or Steve or Johnny might do. Um.
But i'd love to. I'd love to a and be it.
I'd love to look at the script and then see
what we actually did. I mean, it's the same with

(31:54):
Google hunting. Actually the um you know. I think Matt
and Bennett been extremely vocal about that, about the scenes
that were improvised and the scenes that were written as
and it's kind of interesting too. I always love I
love seeing it because I know what we did. I
know what we created on the day and um um.
And that's that's not to say that obviously stuff that's

(32:14):
written isn't beautiful and genius too, but sometimes says it's
rare magic and what you improvise if you're all in lockstep,
you know, with each other and really listening and really
uh and really in the moment of telling that story,
and it was such a fun story to tell and great,
point blank yeah, high shake my hand. There's something about
that wine that always gets me. It was just so

(32:37):
funny because there's so much tension in that scene because
you don't know, you don't fully know what happened yet,
and it's high shake my hand, and then the kiss,
and then the way you guys sort of circle each
other through that movie. It's it's weird. It's like you
take turns like Predator and Pray and like it's so fun.
It's so I know, it is it is. It isn't

(33:00):
readibly playful, and that is that is what I remember.
I remember playing playing with John through the whole of
that film, like it was just this amazing game. And
you know, to be completely honest, I was absolutely head
over heels in love with him. Oh my god, just
gone gets completely, completely and utterly. And that that in

(33:22):
itself has like a kinetic energy of when you're just you,
you want to be around someone all the time, and
you are around them all the time, and then you
get to create and play and they're kind of as
mad as you are. Um in terms of their creativity
and it was just it was fun. I mean there

(33:44):
were crashes and burns as well, as there always are
with anything that you know, UM, kind of burns incandescently.
It has to, it has to kind of explode at
some point, but boy, it was. It was one of
the greatest times of my life for sure. That's it's amazing. Um.
You mentioned a little movie called Goodwill Hunting, just just

(34:05):
a small, little now legendary iconic film. Um. I want
to know some about Gus Van's aunt for sure, because
he's one of my favorite directors. But I'm also curious
just about I mean, that movie exploded and was nominated
for everything you were nominated for an Oscar, and it's
one of those movies now that forever it's going to

(34:29):
be included in montage clips of like the great movies
of Hollywood. Um, what's it like to be in one
of those movies? It's extraordinary. I mean now having you know,
had a whole career, which is quite hard to do
to kind of keep it going as an actor too.
I really I realized the significance of of being in

(34:52):
a film that is as beloved and will carry on
being beloved like a timeless movie. It's it's pretty rare
that you can you can go through a whole wonderful
career and not make a film like that. It was.
I love the innocence. I love remembering the innocence of
that film because you know, Matt and burn were just

(35:12):
too incredibly intelligent, ambitious young writers, um and actors and
they wanted to They actually, I would say that they
were more writers, Like they wrote so that they could act.
They wrote they could be in that movie. Um, because
there was lots of talk of other actors, you know,
getting lots of money to make the film, but it

(35:33):
had to be you know, Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio,
and they were like, now, you know, we want to
do this, and they figured it out. It's hard to
remember back then when they weren't the biggest deal in
the world. But you know, you're you're all just you know,
kids in your mid twenties being shepherded along. And Gus
Manzana is so great with with young actors. Um. What's

(35:56):
he like as a as a human? He's a he
is a mysterious creature, Gus Um, he really is. He
is incredibly warm and soulful and yeah, mysterious. There's something
very sphinx like about Gus. But when he's directing you, um,

(36:18):
it's so amazingly pure and he doesn't say very much,
but what he says it's so pertinent to what you're
doing and will be the thing that unlocks what is
needed in that moment. So he's he's quiet, but absolutely intent.

(36:38):
And I remember he's the only director I ever worked
with who his face would be right by the camera.
He was. He was never behind a monitor, or maybe
it was just in the big scenes. I just always
remember his face being right there. He was watching the
scene as it was playing out, as opposed to watching
it through a lens um And maybe it's because he

(36:58):
trusted Johnny the scoffier, who was the the so sadly
now deceased cinematographer who and he also was the cameraman.
Maybe he trusted him and he was like, if I'm
getting it emotionally from the side of the camera, I
know Johnnyeve is getting it. Um. But there was a
beautiful symbiosis on that film between all departments and it

(37:22):
was magical, you know. The cool thing was so hilariously
Marymake's was making they were making a Jackie Brown at
the same time, and like everything was all about Jackie Brown,
with Jack Brown this and Jack Brown that, It's all
about Tarantina. It's all about this whole thing. So we
were just left alone. There was nobody like hassling us.
We were just made. We just went on and made
this movie. Matt and Ben just worked so hard because

(37:45):
they were you know, all hours writing, rewriting. You know,
they were just in it. And we didn't have anyone
breathing down our neck. So we just Gus got to
make exactly the movie that he and Matt then wanted
to make, um, because you know, the tigers were looking
at other meat. Right. It's a it's a movie that

(38:08):
you just invest so much in as a viewer emotionally, Um,
not only just the stuff with with Will and his
just you know, heartbreaking story and what he's going through,
but then the love story aspect of it is I
think just it's so brutal to watch those scenes still

(38:29):
all these years later, when you're getting your heartbroken. Um,
it's it's just a collective like a collective heartbreak for
the audience to It's just so real and just awful.
It's so it is. It's such a god. And by
the way, that that scene we did that scene in
the in the in the audition, and I don't think

(38:51):
Matt and Ben would mind my saying that they were
When I went to audition for this movie, it was
at the Mercer Hotel in New York and I got there,
aren't you know, ready on time and stoked, and poor
Gus was like that the guys didn't show up and
like I was stuck there for literally like an hour
and Gus, it's so quiet and he's so not a
small talker, and you know, it was so awkward, and

(39:13):
I just I just didn't know what to do when
I just sat there. And eventually they showed up and
they were so apologetic, and you know, they were really
on over. They were really hungover, and they you know,
and we we launched into the um the fight scene,
and um we got into it and then Matt stopped

(39:33):
it and he was like, oh my god, I am
so sorry, Like you are so prepared many and I
am so not prepared. Can we just start again? And
I was like, yeah, no, take your time, to take
your time. But that scene, I believe that was written
that never changed from from the time that he first
wrote that that scene was intact um and it's so,

(39:57):
it's so beautiful, it's a it's it's a massful scene,
and it's a it's a really difficult scene, any scene
that involves you starting in a place of real complicity
and sweetness and ends up in a place of of
abject misery. Um. I mean, it's catinet for an actor,
but it's I didn't realize how hard it was at

(40:18):
the time. I'm glad I didn't realize how hard that
is to do when that's kind of a scene as
you know it's coming and just sort of there is
it just sort of always in the back of your head,
like three more days until not with you know it now?
But then then I was raring to go every second
of the day. I would wake up ready. I was

(40:40):
just like, what are we got? Oh? I ate it
for breakfast. I loved it so hard. Now I do
that thing of going, oh my god, three days until
I got to do that, Okay, alright, what am I
going to do? All Right? Do I know it well enough? Alright? Alright, alright,
you know, but but then you're just like, I don't
know this is like a dolphin quality when you're young

(41:02):
and you're just passionate about what you do and it's
just play. It's just play. It's all play. And that
was the way I know. I know now how hard
Matt and Byrne we're working, like sort of after we'd
finished shooting, how hard they were working on the script
that they were and so many hours and such extraordinary performances.
But when we were on set, it was just playtime.

(41:26):
You know, it's amazing, it's a magical movie. Well, I'm
very glad you like it. Yeah, I'm I'm waiting. I
can't believe no one has picked that movie yet as
their movie crush. I'm sure it will happen at some point,
which is kind of one of the fun things, like
who is going to pick what movie? I bet it's interesting,
it's quite it's it's say so much better person in

(41:47):
the films that they love. It's my favorite, I mean,
the conversations of my favorite part, but it's my second
favorite part of doing this show is hearing from someone
that I really love and admire and like, oh my god,
what's the movie going to be? What's your movie going
to be? And it's almost always something I love too,
which is which is kind of fun. Um. But before

(42:07):
we get into your movie, Tutsie, great choice. Uh, I
want to talk a little bit about your podcast. I'm
not sure how much you're allowed to talk about yet,
but in the spirit of creative diversification, I have a
podcast that my heart is producing and it's gonna be
out soon. It is called Many Questions, and the title

(42:31):
really reveals what it's about, and it is really as
it goes, a shallow or as deep as the as
the guest decides. Um, but I'm I love talking to people,
and um, I'm interested in people in all different kinds
of people. And I think this podcast, rather than just

(42:54):
being conversations with famous friends, is a real examination of
how how people move through the world, how they deal
with it. Well, you had me on, so it's definitely
not conversations with famous friends. Oh you you're my famous friend, Chuck,
what are you kidding me? Well, it was a lot

(43:16):
of fun and I can't wait to hear who else
is going to be on And here's some of these conversations.
I feel like we did have a really good conversation,
and you're very good at talking to people. It's Uh.
I was super excited about because I'm such a fan
of yours and my wife is too, and we um
after she was like, well, what was it like? And
I was like, she was lovely and it was a
great conversation from Jump. You know, you just have a

(43:39):
very welcoming uh spirit, and I think that's uh, that's
the key to a show like that. That's so nice.
Thank you, I mean really coming from you as a
kind of podcasting guru, Yes you are. UM, that's that's praise. Indeed. Well,
I can't wait, uh, And we'll let everyone know when
it officially punches and and have some other promotional stuff.

(44:03):
Plan to get down but your movie crush, Let's get
onto tutsie uh from two, the second highest grossing movie
of Night two behind ET nine Oscar nominations. Jessica laying
one Best Supporting Actress UM in competition against Terry gar Uh,

(44:26):
who I just miss and loves so much. It's just
so heartbreaking. Oh my god, she is. She is one
of the greatest things to ever happened to the screen,
Like no doubt. She really is one of my all
time favorite actresses. She is, Um, she's so great in
this movie. It's like peak Terry Gardness. It is, it

(44:51):
is undilated Terry Garr and just just everything the neuros
is what she what she built into, what she built
into a character. That could have just been a device.
We needed a device to get Michael to go an

(45:11):
audition for this part, and it could have been it
could have been something way more two dimensional. But she's God,
she has pure magic. What's your history with this movie?
Did you see when you were a kid? Yeah, my, my, my.
Hisstory with this movie is that we were we were
like where I grew up when my dad lived. My

(45:32):
dad lived in the Caribbean growing up, and we had
this this VCR and he had seven movies like that
was it and like the sound of music played at
the drive in for a solid fourteen weeks one year.
So I saw that a lot. And then you know,
he had some like really grim spy ship and then

(45:52):
Turtsy was one of these movies. And I watched it
so many times. I watched it, and I watched it
and I watched it, and I I watched it so
many times that I've I feel like I've had full
blown relationships with every single character in that movie, Like
I'll watch it and I'll be like, Oh, who am
I going to be in love with today? It's Jessica Laig.

(46:15):
Oh it's a jess collagn Watch who am I in
love with today? Oh it's it's Sydney Pollock. I'm in
love with Sydney Pollock today. To get helps, He's I
think one of the more underrated directors. I think he.
I mean, it's not like people don't love Sydney Pollock films,

(46:35):
but I never hear his name mentioned in the conversation
of great directors. Agree such a great actor between this
and husbands and Wives. No, he's brilliant, and I think
that people people know that. It's so interesting to me,
like why he was also beloved in Hollywood like he was.

(46:57):
He was so kind to me whenever whenever I met him.
He here's the same thing that like Jimmy Barns has.
Oh yeah I met him? Oh yeah, No, I um yeah,
I loved him kind, funny again, exactly as you would imagine,
like exactly as you would imagine like the someone that

(47:18):
an icon like that to be. But anyway, I'm I've
watched that movie an enormous amount. Probably I was inappropriately
young when I watched it. Um, but it's awesome. It's awesome,
and it's it's weird because I don't really love big
commercial movies for the most part. Like I'm still pissed
that Titanic beat good while hunting or Trust. I may

(47:41):
never get over it. Yeah, Oh hold on, this is terrible.
One second. Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm single

(48:07):
parenting so hard. I'm so sorry. I might have to
leave all that in. That's so great. I don't wanted
to kill literally wanted to kill the delivery guy. Oh
my god, he really Anyway, my one dog is the
biggest barker at anything that moves outside as a shelty,
So don't Kenny Kelly, Kelly, Kenny Kelly, Kenny down and Kimmy.

(48:35):
All right, Key just come here, just relax, alright, it's wonderful. Alright,
there's Bob. It's funny though that you mentioned seeing Tutsie
too young. I was one of those kids too that
UM was just obsessive about HBO when we got HBO
when I was aver or whatever, and this was a
heavy HBO rotational like I was. It's a very not

(48:56):
an adult movie, and that there's anything too salacious. But
it's just not like a movie for kids. It's it
tackles sexism in the movie industry, and it's not a
movie like a twelve year old should love. But I did.
I loved it so much. I'm glad you loved it.
I was right there loving it also. I mean, I
I still, I still, you know, I watched it again

(49:17):
the other day, Like I I watch it all the time.
I have to say, it's kind of like a comfort movie,
and I don't have too many of those. But it's
so funny because I was thinking about it through the
lens of like it's become problematic now, and the idea
of like a dude going and stealing a job from
a woman. Yeah, you couldn't make this movie today, bro, No,
thank god, there's an evolution. But you can also appreciate

(49:40):
things in the vacuum of that, of that moment um
for all these other reasons. I mean, Bill Murray eating lemons,
Bill Murray eating Celery, Like I still sometimes I think
I wonder if that was just like someone was like, hey, Bill,
you know, what are you gonna do in this? He
was like, I'm just gonna eat a lemon. I'll just
eat a lemon. I'm just gonna eat lemons for this

(50:02):
one Dustin and that party scene when he's sitting there
just sort of holding court the line I wish I
had a theater that was only open when it rained,
and then later everyone's gone, but he's still in that
same spot, like he hasn't moved at the island. I

(50:24):
I love him, and I love it when when doesn't.
When doesn't wakes him up, when he's on his first
morning at work and Bill Murray rolls over and he goes, Mom, Yeah,
I think he was uncredited. I think he insisted on
being uncredited in this movie. If I'm not mistaken. I
remember hearing I'm meant to look it up, but I

(50:44):
remember hearing a story about that, like he's not unlisted
on the poster or anything. I think he very much
did it a sort of a just a fun favor.
It feels like it was all improvised and that he
just showed up on set one day and they were like, oh,
come on, just be in the scene. You have Now
it's an impact on the movie. He's not in very
much of it if you look at actually like minutes

(51:04):
screen time, minutes, but it's Bill Murray. He's just so funny.
He wouldn't. Bill Murray says, I just don't want to
sit around pretending I'm not home because you're not that
kind of girl. And he's so he's really annoyed about it.
He's like, no, I'm going, you know, I'm I'm going
to my girlfriend's house. Like he was just their whole

(51:25):
like girlfriend band said. Like when Dustin Hoffman when Michael's
getting ready for in quotes his date with Julie, He's
like just going over to run lines and they're sitting
around checking out his outfits, like I love Bill Murray
as the girlfriend UM and Michael. I mean, he's like,

(51:45):
you know, I know this may sound silly, but I just,
you know, I just I just want to look pretty
for her. Yeah. It's such a great line. And I
loved Uman so much. It was so disappointing when he
was kind of out at as doing some inappropriate things. Yeah,
but this, this this dovetails right into exactly what we
were just saying about. You know, problematic stuff in movies

(52:07):
that we love that can go that is unutterably wrong
and awful, And and you and I can also look
back at and and be in love with Jessica Lang
in this movie, and and Terry gar and Bill Murray.
It's so funny. It's because like actors want people in
two When I was watching movies age twelve, they were,

(52:29):
they were they were the characters in the movie. So
I feel like I have a I have a relationship
with Michael and with Julie, And I know it was
so much fun watching at the end. And I've seen
this movie so many times, but it had been a
long time, and it really struck me how many of
these um, how much of the humor I got as
an adult that I must have fallen over my head

(52:52):
as a kid. And and it is a movie that
actually does say some very real things about sexism. It's
it's it tackles in a sort of very eighties way,
I guess, but um, yeah, it is for a movie
this mainstream, I think, to sort of tackle sexism head
on in a mainstream Number two gross in comedy was

(53:14):
was unusual for the time. I think. I suppose it's
gutting that it had to be a man playing a
woman to do it. You know, when Dorothy Swatch, the
director over the head. You want some gross caricature of
a woman's show on you you much up ship head,
you know, and she kind of punches him. Um, it's
what gets her the role and um it, I don't know.

(53:37):
I find it. I find it interesting today. I carry
it with me because I loved it so much when
I was little, in lieu of not really having anything
else to watch. Um, and I love it now because
it brings up questions that I like to ask, which is,
you know, how much how much have we changed? How
much has changed? I think it's up to the individual
to decide whether they can separate the art from the artist.

(54:08):
The last detail The King of Comedy and tot and
my three favorite films. And I did tell the Narrow
that The King of Comedy and like he kind of
looked me kind of blackly, and he was like, really,
really that's your favorite And I was like, oh christ yeah,
oh now we've got to be at a scene together, okay, boy, Yeah,

(54:30):
I think so. I think we should talk a little
about the rest of the cast, because it's just a
murderers row um, Dabney Coleman. Dabney Coleman. I mean, he's
literally a walking epaulet. He's just a revolting Safari suit
of a dude. I hate him so hard in this movie,
and he's so genius obviously, but I know, I want

(54:52):
to know what he's like because between this and Nine
to five he really cornered the market on on eighties. Uh.
Just bad dude, that's guy. Yeah, those bad dudes. There's
something about Yeah. It's the way that he it is
just that extraordinary dismissiveness that he has and just the
the endless kind of patting Jessica Lang on the bottom

(55:14):
as she's getting into cars and just you know, his
his it's it's it's so it's so great, like his
his come upance, I mean, such as it is is
so great. His ridiculous vindication at the end in the
Samath when you know, Michael Dorsey reveals that he's not

(55:37):
Dorothy but her brother, and he's like, I knew there
was something about her because she didn't like him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Every moment where he goes off book, Oh yeah, it's
just so brilliant because the second it happens, it cuts
to the control room and everyone's just like, oh God,
here we go. It's like the one thing you can't

(55:58):
do on its soap b Opara's improvised. I would think
like it's all about like just nailing those lines as
fast as possible because they shoot so much in a day. Um,
and every time he just starts to go off, it's
just so wonderful, the greatest, and I do it. I
actually do it on every set I think I've ever
been on. When um, I hear the direct to say, uh,

(56:22):
a camera, can you pull back? Um? And then I
go how far? How do you feel about Cleveland? Um?
It's it's that's one of my that's really one of
my favorite maybe my favorite lenon the movie ever. H
one of my favorite moments. And this is a Terry
Gar moment that is so subtle. And I love these
moments and movies where an actor does this little choice

(56:44):
that is so easy to overlook. And I now you
probably recognize this part was right after they have sex.
She's in bed, covered up with the s looks to
she says sex changes things and her part well, but
then she also looks kind of she just looks kind

(57:06):
of like disappointed. She doesn't look I was like, oh, yeah,
it's all still the same. It's so funny. It's just
a great little choice. She's she's a master like she is,
she is a master. And it is stuff like that
that is the that is what differentiates a good actor
from a genius actor. It's stuff like that. It's it is,

(57:26):
it's it's it's that whole incredibly fast paced monologue when
she's like, you know, are you gonna call me tomorrow?
Because you know, if you're not going to call me,
I just like you to tell me now so I
can have my pain now, because if you don't call
me tomorrow, then I'm been. I have you not calling
me and I'm gonna have my pain. So I want
to have a pain now. Yeah, it's she's, She's, She's heaven.

(57:47):
There's I don't know, there's a lot of there's a
there's a lot of discovery. And while he's not ostensibly funny,
what I like about about Michael Dorsey is that he's
not funny. He isn't. He's an arrogant, self regarding actor
and every and doesn't often does allow everybody around him
to be funny. Um, but I love the I love

(58:11):
the moments. What's that line when he says, um, I
think Dorothy is smarter than I am, Like, I love
I love the sort of discovery of his humanity that
this woman, this created woman, is teaching him. Yeah, but
the second part of that line, there's a lot to unpack.
He says, I just wish he was prettier. I just
wish she was prettier. I mean, that's there's a lot

(58:32):
going on in that, you know, I mean, especially well,
do you know what? There's also that other line, and
I think it's where I've really because I think in
a completely different way. This is why it was so
hard for me when they were both nominated, because I
think Jessica Lang is, it's so hard to be that

(58:53):
beautiful and be as extraordinarily gifted as she is. By
the way, there are there are lots of act is
you're incredibly beautiful, and you actually think they're better actresses
than they are because you're so big girl, by how
beautiful they are. And then there's a few who you know,
like a Margot Robbie, they are absolutely you can't look
away stunning, and they are also profoundly gifted actresses. But

(59:16):
when Jessica Lang says, you know, um, don't you find
it being hard? Don't you find it hard being a
woman in the eighties, and there's something so there's something
so sad and remote, and she she so could have
just been setting up, you know, some gag for Dustin
Hoffman because he's not a woman. But there it touches

(59:37):
me so deeply, her profound sadness. You know, this woman
who drinks too much, you know, a single mother who
understands that when she gets old, there's not going to
be a whole lot left for her. And she's dabbed.
The Dabney Colbyn's of the world are always sort of
going to be the guys that were like it simply sad. Yeah, yeah,

(59:58):
that this is sort of her lot in life. She's
in this great apartment. I mean, it's very funny. It's
very eighties when you look at that apartment now, but
you know, this big New York apartment, and she seems
so resigned to yeah, like you're saying, I have to
work for this dick. But then when you see her
laughing on set, like and I'm sure it looked like
it sure looked real to me when Michael's doing that

(01:00:21):
whole bit about given every nurse a cattle, proud to
dr bruser in the Bazilis and she starts she just
Colone starts laughing and she's carrying her now and she's
really laughing, and it's just it's magical because you see
who this, you see who that woman. Julie is like
all the fun, all of this, And I love that

(01:00:41):
with characters where you don't have to have a whole
scene about this whole other world that they live in,
but you just pull back the curtain long enough to
see that it's in there, and also trusting that people
will catch that and that you don't have to belabor
at that point, Like that is mastery as well. Yeah.
I think also played the Charles Darning stuff, um, who's

(01:01:03):
just so great and everything. Yeah, I think they played
that just right, Like they could have gone so further
over the top slapstick with you know, him getting physical
with her or with him. I guess it's beefy hand
like when he get when he says this and it
just goes and they're both just back too far. Like

(01:01:27):
it's that those kind of physical gags like that stuff.
It's brilliant, but just just enough of it though, you know,
like these little moments, but it wasn't he could have
gone in the wrong direction. I think Sidney Pollock deserves
a lot of credit for that. Um. One of my
other favorite scenes is the Russian tea room scene. I
couldn't agree with him, like it's my I'm I'm looking

(01:01:51):
for that, I'm looking for the Russian tea room. Well
this is the Russian tea room. Oh I missed you.
Oh Michael, Michael, I told you to get out, and
his voice and it's Michael, It's Michael. Jesus, Michael told
you to sepet He plays annoyed and angry better than

(01:02:12):
like anyone in the business, so brand when he's just
like picking lint off his shoulder and putting Michael putting
his arm right, and when this guy's come out to
the table and I'm like, oh my god, it's just great.
But it's also so agency at Brilliant Sydney Public. Is
when Michael is then desperate to get out, and that
whole scene where he's like, you've got to get me out,
and he was like, I can't get you around. You're

(01:02:33):
making a lot of money. Like it's like the whole
idea is like I can't get you out, Like it's
I love how how how quickly he seamlessly he's like, oh,
this is a hit, this is making shiploads of money. Guy,
I'm in yeah, it's it's actually one of the better
movies about the industry. And you don't want to think
of it that way. You think of TUTSI is like
the movie about Dustin Hoffman playing a woman. You don't

(01:02:56):
put it up there with like The Player or Living
in Oblivion and all these movies about making movies. But
it's really one of the better movies I think about
the industry. Like that's definitely like having grown up with
this film, I now I place it firmly in the
in the cannon of movies that you just that you
just talked about. I mean, it's about acting in a

(01:03:17):
lot of ways. It's it's so much about acting. I
mean those scenes at the beginning, I watched those a
lot now, you know over under the credits when he's
when he's directing the whatever the acting classes that he gives.
I love those scenes. I love watching him like because
because I think he's just I think that's just him.
I don't think that's not him being Michael Dorsey. I

(01:03:38):
think that's just him Dustin Hoffman looking at a scene
and like talking about and they just shot it theater crowd. Yeah,
he's just such as he's such asked the tomorrow. No
one will work with you, no one will work with you.
It was like a tomato doesn't have logic, it can't
move that some public screaming. Then he's like, that's what

(01:04:01):
I said, if it doesn't have legs, and how can
he sit down? He's so exasperated. Those scenes that, I mean,
they're scenes together just some of the best stuff in
the whole movie. And that's a movie like with Bill Murray,
like doing his thing too. Everything about it is great
that I think how it all spins together in that
third act, it's just like, ah, it just it gains

(01:04:23):
all this momentum in that third act because he has
to deal with Sandy, he has to deal with Jessica Lang,
he has to deal with Jessica Lang's dad, he has
to like all of these things kind of come crashing
down all at once. It's it's sort of like the
best farce. It's such a That's why it's just such
a brilliantly written film because like you know, you you look,

(01:04:44):
it's so lean and the structure is just exactly as
you it is written in the books, and in a
way for me, that's what even though they're not typically
films that I love that you could read Save the
Cat and he would understand the structure of Tutsie. But
what what makes it so genius is the fact that
it does it. Here to this like apparent the structure
that you apparently can't ever move away from, and it

(01:05:07):
does it so perfectly, and that by that third act
where you have all of these things, and it's so
difficult to end that film, and I got to tell you,
like I I'm I feel hopeful, I feel glad, I
feel that scene at the end in the street is
totally right. Yeah, I mean I would have maybe liked
a little a little bit long. I would have liked

(01:05:28):
to hear her say a little bit more, but maybe
by that point you you get it. And when she
says I'm Mr Dorothy, you really feel that that's really
everything she like. She finally had a friend, she had
a mother, she had a confidante, and that's gone from her.
And when he says, she's right here and I believe him.

(01:05:51):
It's a complicated scene to play, and it's a movie
I think could have ended a number of different ways
and still worked. Um, and it makes me want to
tell me you're tell me you're all ending. Well. I
mean she doesn't smile and walk down the street with him.
She she shuns him for for tricking. I mean, of

(01:06:12):
course you came in the Hollywood movie like that. That's
not I was going to say, that's like, that's like
the you know, I'm trying to think that's the gust
friend sound version. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean certainly it
could as far as Hollywood and to go this is
sort of it. It could have ended with him loving
Sandy although he wasn't right. They weren't right for each other,
as much as I hate to say it, No, no,

(01:06:35):
not at all. But I don't know if he's right
for Jessica Lange either. Now he's totally selfish. I mean,
he's I don't think he deserves which is why I'm
glad that he doesn't like UNI actually get her like
I always like to think that they would become friends
and then she would learn I think what I always
imagined was they would become friends and then she would

(01:07:00):
learn that you could actually, you know, have a good
relationship with a man, and then she would go and
marry like a grown up. Neither Dabney Coleman or him No,
neither of those. It dis Yeah, I think that's a
good call. Uh, And you know you don't. They very
subtly sort of indicate that he and saying they work
out okay because her name is listed on the play bill,

(01:07:21):
on the sign or whatever, so they don't need to
like tie that up with the prettiest bow. I think
I love the way they did that. They're like, clearly
they're going to be pals because they're acting together and
their friends play exactly and that that was the whole
point of like making that money in the first place,
was just to put on the play so they could
they could be actors, you know, which is and un

(01:07:42):
actors do actors do get over stuff? Yeah? I think
you do. You have to. I think the last thing
I want to talk about maybe is just that the
reveal scene. It's um it felt the other night when
we were watching it, it felt almost like a sports movie.
How it was the tension and it was culminating in

(01:08:03):
this big thing because they had to go live. It
was such a great setup, you know that you know
what's going to go down. It almost felt like the
ending of the Karate Kid Are Rocky or something. Yeah, totally.
And also when that that amazing moment where Michael stumbles
and he doesn't have it and you cut to the
booth and they're like that everyone is just like on

(01:08:23):
the edge of the scene and he just he doesn't
know what the story of what is going to go,
and then this collective kind of sigh when he carries on,
even though it's literally like the nuclear codes like stopped
for a minute and then they carried on. I mean
when he reveals so, I mean, I've seen that movie
so many times, and Emily and I watched it the
other night and where it was uproarious laughter in our

(01:08:46):
bedroom watching that when he finally rips it off and
the in everyone's expression, it was just I knew it
was coming. I've seen it a dozen times and we
were dying. We were rolling on the floor laughing. It
was so great and so funny. Well, I'll be I know,
it's it's you know what it was found I found
really weird and I've never I've never made peace with

(01:09:09):
it with it is when Jessica n goes over to
him and she punches him in the stomach should have
been a slap, right, it's super weird. She should have
fucking decked him, Like, same weird. I don't get it.
It's like, well, I don't understand that choice. I've never
understood that choice, and I still don't understand it. No,
it's so funny that you said that, because we said

(01:09:29):
the exact same thing, and in fact, when she came
up to him, I said, here comes to the slap,
because yeah, like punching him and like the full steeth
coming out of his mouth like I would have taken.
I would have taken any version that wasn't stuffing him
in the gun. It's just weird. Emily thought it might
have been in the balls. I was like, no, I
think it was a stomach punch. Yeah, it was definitely.

(01:09:50):
Oh that's good. I never thought about that. I've always
thought it was the stomach punch. I think it is.
I think kneeing him in the balls could have been
an acceptable number two to punching him. She really should
have punched him. That's actually the only thing that I
would change about that whole movie. Yeah, that was the
only sort of weird choice. I wonder what the what

(01:10:12):
the provenance is of that. I don't know. I don't
have any idea. Um, great movie. I mean I feel
like we covered it. How do you feel, Oh yeah, yeah,
I'm it's so funny and talking about it, I just
I'm wondering how many people are going to be like,
it's a really sexist movie. I don't think you should
be like in that movie Mini Driver, God, you're a

(01:10:33):
bad feminist, bad feminist. No, you're a great feminist. And
it's a great movie. And if you look at it
in the lens of nineteen two, they were actually saying
a lot about feminism, and I think he was trying.
I think it was really trying to to to do something.
I just don't think that we we just weren't there yet.
We just have been the best nineteen eight two could do. Yeah, man,

(01:10:55):
look if if et s here are that not that
e t isn't a great movie. But like if that's
the fair that people are really like looking at God, right,
then that was some cinema. Very jay compared to The
Alien and the Basket Across the Moon. Yeah, such a
good movie. I was so glad to get to watch
it again. And I appreciate you coming on. It's very

(01:11:16):
kind of you to spend so much time. Thank you
very much. I apologized for my booking talk, but I
love it. We're going to leave some of that in.
I think everyone needs to hear Bob's roar. All right,
thanks a lot, alright, Chuck. Movie Crash is produced and
written by Charles Bryant and Meel Brown, edited and engineered
by Seth Nicholas Johnson, and scored by Noel Brown here

(01:11:38):
in our home studio at Pontstey Market, Atlanta, Georgia. For
i Heeart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,