111: Cartoon Network

This week Dani and Ify are joined by Jeff Trammell, Lead Writer of Craig of the Creek and voice of Cannonball, to discuss the history of Cartoon Network.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, welcome to another edition of Nerdificent. I am one
half of your host, Danny Fernandez, sitting across from me
virtually still is if you want anyway, how's everybody doing
there in your home? So hopefully six feet away from
folks mask on the opposite of the future song if
he I recently got tested and was negative. Um, and

(00:32):
that just goes even though I've been out protesting what
not the last couple of weeks. Would like to say
again the importance of wearing a mask. A lot of
people are taking these masks off and it's crazy, and
I just want to say, like, I still have been
testing negative. I've been really careful. Um. I know sometimes
it's not always someone's fault, but a lot of people

(00:53):
are acting. When we were protesting, there were people at
brunch not even kidding. We walked by people at brunch
and who and I was just with their masks off,
enjoying their eggs. Benedict, Yeah, yeah, it was. It was
wild too, because, um, when I went to the last protest,
I took a lift there because you know, I didn't
want to drive, and something pop off, I need to go,

(01:14):
and then I'm stuck trying to get my car. So
I was like, let me just lift and then you know,
I know these streets, um, but I forgot like that
all that, all of that stuff is different now. So
like the lift driver showed up and I was wearing
my mask, and then he was like, oh he put
his mask on, Like bro okay, first of all, but
I'm glad I did because we're talking or whatever. And
then he just starts coughing recklessly. I'm like, glad you

(01:37):
put your mask. You try to have it off. You're
trying to have this off. Drop my ass off. Also,
that means he was coughing in his car the whole
time before. You got in a lot of cough particles.
That's why I had my mask on, you toll. The
people don't know that. And then you got the a
c on you know, cough particles everywhere. We're not talking
about car cough particles right now. We're talking about cartoons

(01:59):
more specific. We're talking about the cartoon Network Baby talking
another cartoon Network Baby. I can see our guests laughing
at this transition with the smooth segues. I always got
the smooth talking about the coronavirus. We're talking about the
cartoon virus. Yeah, the virus that is Cartoon Network. Baby.
Uh yeah, no, yeah, yeah, that's what that's what we're

(02:23):
talking about. It's a good time. But you know, we
we we couldn't have be a conversation about cartoon now.
One of the one of our good friends who's as
a triplog holding it down all over the Cartoon network.
Someone would say he's taking over Cartoon Network. Every time
everyone would say he is Cartoon Network someone. Yeah, Mr
Cartoon Network, like you know, uh, you know, like like Pitbulls,

(02:46):
Mr three or five live, this is Mr Cartoon Network.
Uh what how you doing? Jeff? Is is Jeff Trummel. Baby,
thank you AUS for having me back. It's been a
long time left you without some dope cartoons and step
two Jeff, Mr Cartoon Network. Tramo head writer of Craig

(03:07):
of the Creek sometimes voice actor Creek. Yeah, thank you
guys for having me. Yeah. You were just nominated to
Yeah yeah, we got nominated for Outstanding Children's Animated Series
at the Daytime Emmys. So that's super cool. Are they
having the like how does that work? No? I think
it's I'll be like this doom. I would love it

(03:33):
if if like somebody loses and they just like end
there's they just walk out and just their screen just
goes to black. Need this anymore? I want to know
who my like if we get to go to the
Virtual Emmys, who my like box is going to be
next to? Like do I get to sit next to
like Steve Harvey or somebody at the Joy Emmys or whatever.

(03:55):
That would me and that would be a nice box
to be next to. Oh my gosh, I want to
see because then it'll also be showing like people's homes.
I'm so nosy. I want to like see you'd be surprised.
Some people are like, yeah, yeah, see you or have
wildness showing, Yeah, all that wildness and all that. Like

(04:16):
I totally see that. Like when they do SNL from home,
you're like, oh, you can definitely tell who's been on
SNL how long some of them some of them bets.
I'm like, oh, there's a lot of space here. Also
some people just like it's so funny because you can
see you have a bunch of art behind me and stuff.
We all do. Actually I can see in our places.

(04:36):
But like the people that just have a blank wall, Yeah,
that cracks me up to it's just like this massively
like plane. I'm like, wow, really artistic. Yeah, don't. I
don't need nothing. I don't need nothing. You see the
big old light my ice cream dog right there, and
that's I always try and get that in frame. We've
been doing zoom calls for super Punch on TBS, another

(05:00):
head Turner a Venture uh, and they'll, you know, I'll
zoom call in. And I've just been putting different things
in the background. And I have this giant Elizabeth plush
from Gettama and it was just sitting back there the
whole the whole episode. I'm like, well, you know, they
didn't tell me to move it, so I'm gonna put
it back there. So I'm gonna see how much wild

(05:21):
stuff I can just fit behind me without them calling
it out. Um, Jeff, we normally start our episodes with
what we're seeking out about. Do you have anything or
artists or creators or shows or movies or books or
anything that you're kind of geeking out about right now? Okay,
let's see. I've been seeking out a lot about Static Shock,

(05:44):
one of my favorite shows. I've been rewatching it I
talked about on the podcast lately. I keep messaging Matthew
Cherry about it. Uh in is full. Yeah, it's just
me being like, hey, can we do static? Can we
do static? And he's like, I don't even own that,
are you? He and I were like talking about my
pilot originally when I first sold it, and then when

(06:07):
his oscar happened, it suddenly was like nope, his inboxes full,
like doing other things with bigger people. It's cool because
he's a Craig fan, which is kind of nuts. So
he's messaged me about Craig, which is really cool. But um, yeah,
so I'm speaking out about Static always forever, I'm speaking
out about Spy Family. So mom, I'm reading. That's super

(06:30):
super good, highly recommend to anyone who likes manga. Uh.
I don't want to spoil it, But did you say
Spy Family? Yeah? I was just about to pick that
one up. It's good. You should check it. Yeah, I'm
not gonna spoil it, just okay, I think you'll like it. Well.
On that Static shock, I have a whole I should
send it to you so you can see what I

(06:50):
was thinking. But I had a whole treat and I
sent because I met with this production company that did
all of the like at the time, like d C
like on you know how they have their like platform
and I sent like the static treatment, but it's like
and it was one thing that like I was like,
you have to meet with me if you if you
do it, because there's one like, uh change I made.

(07:13):
And I was like, I know, I know what I'm
talking about because in the you know, in the show,
his um his father you know, was alive and his
mom passed and she was like a paramedic, and then
her father was a cop. And then I wanted to
flip it where his mom is alive and then the
father is a cop and then play with you know,
police brutality that way instead of having like this cop

(07:35):
on the show. That's like, you know, I'm one of
the good ones, son So you know, it was just
trying to trying to get dark and just so DC
could be like, no, like we like all all this
except this, um but yeah, that's tight um me. You know,
I'm geeking out about you know, keeping keeping the theme straight. Uh,

(07:55):
Spider Man Miles, Uh you know that that that was
a super dope reveal, uh. And what a roller coaster
because Sony open their mouth and said that it was
just a DLC and and insomnia. Holo holol No, no,
don't let Nope, Nope, they had to try. They have
to stop that train because people were getting ready to

(08:16):
light there. They have no light of up. They have
to be like old. Nope, that is not true. It
is a full game. It is aful So I'm super
I'm super excited also because you know, by the looks
on it, it's an older Miles, and I don't think
we've really got to see much older Miles, like all
the Miles of in high school. So I I that's

(08:36):
that's the fun I am because there is like a
fun in seeing teen teen Peter Parker and then adult
Peter Parker. So I'm so excited to see what adult
Miles is. And I pray, pray, pray they have black
people on the writing team of Adult Miles. Yeah, I wanna.

(08:58):
I'm gonna use this as a side bar for um
for video game writing, because there's something that's been scratching
at the back of my head since, uh since I've
played it. But um, Life is Strange to Life is
Strange is really good, Uh, you know, narrative video game series,
and Life is Strange too follows um a a half Mexican,

(09:19):
half white um kid whose dad is killed by the
cops and they're on the world. No, his dad is
killed by a cop and his son like uh kills
him and like like accidentally kills the cop trying to
protect his dad, and they go on the run and
the whole game. The way life is strange works is
you make a series of decisions and like you get

(09:40):
different um you get different uh endings based on how
many quote unquote good or bad decisions you make, how
many aggressive or passive ones you make, and the you know,
I went through it totally in with my own emotions,
with my own views on racism, and in the end
still like had good relationships stuff throughout, But in the

(10:02):
end I got the quote unquote bad ending in the
sense that because I was I wasn't passive whenever there
was a racist situation, Like if someone was racist, they
got clapped, like like as simple as that, like it
like and and and and and it wasn't even like
I was just just cavalierly killing people. But if they
were being racist and putting my life at risk because

(10:23):
of it, I defended my I chose the chance to
defend myself and not do that, and in the end
you get the um the ending where like you go
to Mexico. You make it because your whole the whole game,
you're trying that You're coming from Seattle trying to go
to Mexico because you know you have family down there,
and in the end, if you do it that way,
you make it to Mexico. But you're like these crime
brothers who like have have like are like the boss

(10:46):
and you're like the head of of of the crime thing.
And then like the one I watched, all the endings
and the good ending is that the brother has the
older brother ends up you know, going to prison for
that for that crime of accidentally killing the cop, coming
out years later. And then the brother goes on a
camping trip. He has like PTSD from being in prison

(11:08):
and all the experiences they have, and then they then
the him and his little brother go separate ways. So
technically the bad ending is the only ending where the
brothers are together. But that's like the one that's the
the you know, marketed quote unquote bad ending. And I
was like, this is how you know it was written
by white people, because the only good option is turning
yourself in, like you you, it just shows you how

(11:30):
you view the police completely differently. For you to think, oh,
that's the only way out is because the major final
choice you make it and this is spoilers if you
haven't played so go ahead, is you're at the boarder
and there's this like social worker who's been working with
you who's like, this is your last chance. You gotta stop.
You choose to either ram through or you you get

(11:50):
off the car and turn yourself in. And there and
it's really cool because that it's not just two choices.
If you were aggressive and all your choices and I
learned this and I'm glad it didn't pick and you
chose to turn yourself in based on my aggressive choices,
he would have ran through and the older brother would
have died, and then it would have been an ending

(12:11):
where he kind of is in Mexico by himself holding
it down. Uh. So, like your your choices, your actions also,
you know, depend on how the outcome comes. But it
still was like this is whack Like like I was like,
you made so many good points about how like they
were making really good points about you. I think it
was such a good game for people to uh like

(12:32):
you really can't do it, but you know, kind of
give a short feeling of how racism feels and how
it affects how you talk with people. And then in
the end they just dropped the ball like that where
it's like, but you still should turn your cop yourself
into the cops. Also, sorry for taking the whole segment
to have this combo. Oh I'm not geeking out about anything. Um,

(12:58):
I'll just like give shout out actually to my friend
Amanda Diebert who she just wrote her first ever a
hundred and forty page graphic novel, which is for DC
superhero girls. It's called Weird Science, just like on our
Nerdy d C which we which you all kind of
were mentioning. Um, yeah, so y'all can pick that up

(13:21):
for people of all ages, but definitely, you know, get
it to the younger crowd so they can they can
be a part of STEM with our superhero overalls. Yeah. Well, yeah,
thank you, and sorry for blowing It's something that's really
been on my mind. I think I'm just going to
do a thread where I actually just fully go into it.
But you should. Yeah, I mean there's so many times

(13:41):
when you even on this podcast have had the discussion
of times when we can tell that there were no
writers of color, writers specifically culture, because we just wouldn't
do that. You know, even different cultures are are separate,
and so it's just like you can tell. And what
I was gonna say is when you said I hope
that there's writers on the game, I hope there's animators

(14:02):
animate Like you know, black and POC. Animators are so
limit like they're just not they're there and they're not
given the opportunities in the same way. I think even
in the studios that I've been involved with, it seems
like you have to prove yourself. I mean, this is
we say this all the time, but literally stories of
people who were like lead story board artists for huge

(14:26):
movies not being allowed to direct, like that's typically the
next step, like just being told that they didn't pay
their dues even though they've been there for a decade.
It's something all of us, I think could vent about forever.
But it's insane, the hoops and obstacles even to be
an animator um on these properties. So again you'll see

(14:47):
a black or brown um character, but then you look
at the animators and they're all white, so it's it's
a mess. I mean, the one thing I'll say about
it is you can tell just how much diverse he
has needed when you see when you hop into um,
when you when you hop into a create a character
and you and you stuck with you know, corn rows

(15:10):
or apro terrible. You know. Yeah, it's always like you know,
straight up ludicrous and too fast, too furious lovers. I
wanted to say, not all Latina's have huge boobs either.
This is every video game. Some of us are just
a B plus and that's okay. Some of us have

(15:35):
have thickness in other areas, which our thighs and our
booty and not just up top. Some of us have both,
but not all of us. Okay, representation matters. Yeah. So
um Ted Turner, which if you are referencing and I
feel like it's a really um popular famous name um
is he actually got the his company from his dad

(16:00):
who left him. He unfortunately committed suicide and Ted was
left like trying to take over this this company, which
was really fascinated because he ended up taking a lot
of risks. So Ted actually sold off radio stations and
bought a TV station. He bought w j r J
in Atlanta, which eventually became w t B S, which

(16:22):
had old movies, sports and cartoons. So Ted ended up
launching CNN and it was a twenty four hour news channel,
and that was wild to people at the time. People
were like, why would we need to watch the news?
But that formula for CNN ended up lending itself to
Cartoon Network, which became a twenty four hour cartoon channel.

(16:47):
So when Ted bought MGM, I mean he was just
taking over. He got all of their cartoons. And then
when he bought all the w B movies, he got
all the cartoons from Warner Brothers. So that was like
Bugs Bunny, all the Loony Tunes. So you can understand
why he would need Those are hundreds of cartoons, right,

(17:08):
hundreds of titles, and so that's why he was like,
I need my own channel that just airs all of
this property that I have, so a little bit more
of the backstory, and he purchased Hanna Barbera and that
was it, right. It was that they have Scooby Doo,
they have Yogi Bear, they have the flint Stone Jet sins.

(17:29):
I mean, it's like all those old vintage cartoons. So
this man was like the mastermind behind UH. And I
watched UH. I watched an interview with him where he
said adults watched cartoons too, because that was not commonly
thought of several decades ago, and he said more people
watch cartoons at night then CNN. So that is something

(17:51):
he realized and was like, I'm going to need a
channel that fully shows all the properties that I bought,
all this money I put in UM. So that is
the story of how Ted Turner started Cartoon Network. Wow,
thank you uncle to hide ain't through. He was like,
we in these tunes out, We're getting these tunes out.

(18:12):
So getting the Cartoon Network the banger bar that Danny
totally missed when she was like the Seeing News Network.
And then he was able to start a twenty four
hour car tune channel, Cartoon Network, Cartoon Network. But that's
because I was saving it for you. If he for

(18:34):
you on October one, which I know that you love
finding out how long since you were born for Yeah,
we don't have to get into that, but that is
four years after me and Danny were born. In October UH,
the Cartoon Network launched the finale of Tartakovsky's uh launched

(18:56):
the finale of Tartakovsky's eighteen twelve or You're with the
backdrop of cartoon explosions, followed by a special event called
Droopy's Guy to the Cartoon Network, hosted by the MGM
cartoon character Droopy, during which the first cartoon on the network,
Rhapsody Rabbit, was shown. So that was that was real nice.
Then the late Night Black and White showed early black

(19:18):
and white cartoons mostly from the Fleshers Studios and Walter
Lance like Witty the Woodpecker from the nineteen thirties and
Merry Melodies and you know the classics, and then tune
Heads would show three shorts with a similar theme provide
trivia about the cartoons. There was also an afternoon cartoon
block called high Noon Tunes, which was hosted by Cowboy
hand Puppets. An example of the like simplicity and imagination

(19:42):
of the network in its early years and the majority
of the class cannimation was that that was the majority
of the classic animation that was shown on Cartoon Network.
No longer airs on a regular basis, but Tom and
Jerry and Looney Tunes still aired and lasted until seventeen.
So yeah, I was run and so those running the
classic tunes while they're developing some new heat. Yeah. So

(20:04):
because Turner owned so many other channels, they could promote
Cartoon Network on the other channels. Remember, they were going
against Nicktoons. So Nicktoons, which we did our episode on,
was heavily realizing this formula of having kind of weird
experimental especially if you look at early Nicktoons, they really
allowed their creators to be weird and gross, which is

(20:25):
something that kind of came back but went away for
for about a decade um. So they were starting to
with a lot of the Cartoon Network commercials, they would
add this weird, awkward like modern spin on the vintage
cartoons and their first original show actually, so not just
the Vintage cartoons. The first original show was The Moxie Show,

(20:45):
but it wasn't really popular. So what a lot of
people consider their first big show April fift Space Ghost
Coast to Coast. It was a top of the hand
of bar They're a superhero. Uh. It was one of
their most original programming ideas and really made them stand

(21:07):
out like that set the tone then for the rest
of the channel was kind of like, oh, there's something
cool and funny an adult over here. Um, but did
y'all watch Space Ghost Oh? Yeah, I was. I was
big in a Space Ghost The brack was really funny, Uh,
just what they turned into and just and it was,
you know, I think my first introduction to like, you know,

(21:31):
bits and though and like when characters, you know, when
when just the idea of like, you know, what each
character is going to do, how they're gonna react. And
it was just so funny this concept that they really
kind of I feel like, focused on the reality of
of like what would it be like if this character
was was you know, was was making this late night

(21:55):
show with his enemies and and it was just my
favorite the one. Yeah, I watched a lot of Space
Gosts a little bit later because, um, I'm just slightly
younger than you guys. I was far in nine four,
so I wasn't allowed to watch Space Ghosts despite my
protests now, but I do remember eventually watching Space Goals

(22:18):
and one of the things, uh, that is really interesting
about it is they would premiere other shows on there
that would later become Cartoon Network shows. The first time
we see the Powerpuff Girls is on Space Goals, Um,
which is kind of crazy, and they had a different
title that I don't think I can say on this
program because it's not eg but you know, like Space

(22:41):
Goals is also like such a weird show that really
does change the kind of tone of Cartoon Network going forward,
because it's so what if we took this old property
and just made him a talk show host? Is the
weirdest thing in the world. But also like so many
people who worked on that would go on to work
on other things that we're going to get into. So

(23:02):
I don't want to like spoil anything, but you know,
Aquitine hunger for his fans and so on. This kind
of all starts here. Yeah, oh so great. Um, speaking
of getting into we have to take a really quick
break and then we are going to hop down nostalgia. Leine,
I'm so excited talking about those huge properties that the

(23:27):
cartoon cartoon time of Cartoon Network. Right after this and
we're back, we're walking. I wanted to say something, Jeff,
I also couldn't watch Space Ghost. What the heck like

(23:48):
that was like when Lion King came out. I was
like barely allowed to watch Lion King, not like in
our fifties, even if you are a listener in your
fifties high Hello, we love you. Um, I know, it's
what's so funny? Is uh? That's kind of the nugget
that was dropped here just kind of watching it is.
The Space Ghost was a Cartoon Network show originally, but

(24:08):
I think most people attributed to Adult Swim because Adult
Swim started re airing it. I think that's when I
got into it, because it ran until I could see myself,
like ninety nine the the end the end kind of
era is probably when I kind of came in, but
I didn't know it was running that long. I'm actually
really surprised because to to me, well technically, it kind

(24:29):
of was. I always felt Cartoon Network was around my
whole life. I didn't realize it started it kind of
not that long ago. You know, I'm older than Cartoon
Network and I if you would have asked me that
before this episode, I would have been like, no, this
it's been around, just like Nickelodeon. But no, uh no,
Cartoon Network was like, nah, we got this. I couldn't really,

(24:50):
I didn't really watch it till the odds, Like I
don't think I watched TVZ until like two thousand or
something like I don't because I was watching like Rugrats
since stuff like I was still too young, I think
to watch some of the stuff on. This also depends
on when you got cable. Yeah, but it's it's also
very interesting to how you had it challenged the medium,

(25:11):
because you know, we did. We never really talked about
how our kind of relationship with Cartoon Network, but I
definitely know that Cartoon Network always had a different voice
to me than Nickelodeon for the longest, and Nickelodeon I
was really watching just their live action shows. I wasn't
really messing with their cartoons like your Alex Mac You're
all that, Like that's what I was really getting from Nickelodeon.

(25:33):
And then Cartoon Network was where I wanted the cartoons
like Dexter's Lab and power Puff Girls, and it really
they kind of had They were kind of the for
lack of a better worth, the edgier of the cartoon giants.
But then I think there's somewhere along the line Nickelodeon
kind of figured it out, and that's when you had
them making things like Adventure Time, which uh that that's

(25:55):
a Nickelodeon Cartoon Network network. Okay, whether which one is
the there's one. It's very similar. What am I thinking of?
Let me see. You know it's interesting is that Nickelodeon
produced the pilot for Adventure Time decided not to keep it. Yeah,
network bought it and they did it. They I will say,

(26:16):
as I'm friends with a lot of animators, and uh,
Nickelodeon has taken a lot of els like that. A
Loudhouse is definitely like a show that definitely has a
a a cartoon network vibe even almost style. You know,
uh a zim which I would have totally believed was

(26:37):
a if you would have told me it was, that
was a Nickelodeon show. Um, But like their shows that
I kind of definitely was like, that's a nick show.
Is like a fairly odd Parents where it's still like
trying to like really leaning on the family wholesomeness and
all this where cartoon networks kind of like almost in
the void. It almost feels like it's our voice, even

(26:58):
though you know, we know it's adults doing it, but
they're like we you know they we're gonna do some
wild things. You know. It's it's yeah to me. On
the on the spectrum, you have Disney. On the right,
you have This isn't political. I'm just saying you have
the right. You have Nick in the Middle, and you
have Cartoon Network on. Yes, I would totally agree with

(27:21):
that from being weird and allowing so Invader Zim is
another one where they took an l because they canceled it.
They wouldn't let him do what he I think we
covered that in our nicktoons, but he was like, if
you're not gonna let me do and and brilliant, very
funny show, if you're not gonna let me make my
show the way I want that, I'm just not going
to give you my show at all. So yeah, yeah,

(27:42):
especially you know it's because you know, we like like
Zim was already kind of pushing that edge of what
a Nick show can do, and I think that's that's
that's that's they're like, no, we gotta But also it's
funny knowing that this is also the same company that
did things like rock O's Mom Life and Rent and
Stimpy and then somewhere they just took a full one

(28:03):
eight and just like, we're not going to do that
type of weird stuff anymore. I think until we got
to see and I think this is maybe possibly taking
from the early rent and stimpy slash. How successful um
Cartoon Network was was SpongeBob. SpongeBob but brought back that
intense close animated shots that are really disgusting and like

(28:24):
being weird and gross and having bad breath and boogers
and all of that. Um So, but you're right there.
Do you definitely see more of that on Cartoon Network,
Which is kind of funny because it's like that's kids humor,
Like they're gross and they're weird and they find like
dead animals and stuff, and um so, so let's hop
into are the big ones that we grew up with.

(28:46):
In in we had what a cartoon? Which feels so old?
That sounds so old coming out of my mouth, But
it was essentially it was essentially for UM. It gave
a lot of our histic freedom for animators and creators.
It was shorts. Actually, it was a segment of shorts

(29:08):
that would be featured on Cartoon Network to kind of
gauge how good they did and if they could be
shows on their own. So that's where we had Dexter's Laboratory.
We had Powerpuff Girls, we had Johnny Bravo, we had
Couraged the cowardly Dog. These all were shorts. They actually,
if you have to send this to you had an

(29:29):
early version of Family Guy not even kidding. It's a
bald Peter who's older. It's voiced by um Seth McFarlane
and he's like picking up a dog at the pound
who's Brian. It's insane. Apparently they passed on that, which
also like, isn't entirely their brand. Uh, definitely feels more

(29:51):
like where it landed Fox and the Simpsons and whatnot.
But Canny can't even can't even believe, you know, it
would be like a different show that would have been
if it was on Cartoon Network, you know, like like
like it would it just would be a whole different
the whole different beast. I was about to say, um Quagmire.

(30:14):
I was like, we definitely don't need Quagmire on Cartoon Network,
but then we have Johnny Bravo, so I'm just gonna
shut up. Yeah, I mean, Seth actually worked on Johnny Bravo,
I believe makes a lot of sense, makes a lot
of sense. But Jeff, out of those like ones that
I named were the ones that were like hute that
you really watched on too. We also ended up having

(30:35):
after that edit and Eddie and you know, um, my
big one was I loved Johnny Bravo, I love power Puff.
My big one was Dexter. I'm actually wearing a Dexter shirt.
Like that was the show that the one show I
kind of would like really make sure to like jump
over to Cartoon Network to watch because I was watching

(30:55):
a lot of Keenan and Kale and other stuff from
Nickelodeon UM. And I remember like Dexter used to premiere
like seven o'clock on Fridays, and I remember like watching
it with my dad. There's like a musical episode where
they kind it's kind of Michael Jackson inspired, but like
that was my show because I don't know that the

(31:17):
humor really like stood up to me. And I watched
it on HBO Max recently and I was like, oh,
this is still very funny, you know, like very simplistic
of like this is Dexter. He's making something, his sister
breaks it, reprints, repete, you know, over and over, but
it's still like super interesting and funny. Yeah. I think
that's what made Dexter such a hit was the layers

(31:38):
to it. Because you had the layer of like he's
this mad scientist making things, but you had that like
very simple, easy to understand kid level thing of always
feeling like your siblings are getting in the way and
messing your stuff up. I remember I used to love
like that relationship because my d D reminded me of
my sister. It's like, yeah, you always miss my stuff up,
you know, when you're breaking my stuff. And it was

(32:00):
just fun to see him just, uh, you know, just
try these new things and they just always pushed the
boundaries of like what his tricks would do. And uh,
it was a solid opening for Cartoon Network because I
was definitely watching that. I loved Johnny Bravo. That was
like the first person character I tried to like impersonate

(32:23):
with the voice, Like I was so sure I did
a good Johnny Bravo, Like I told all my friends
and all I would say is Johnny Bravo. That's all
I would say. But I was like, uh, yeah, that
was perfectly Yeah, what was Johnny Bravo in here? Um?
For me, it was my girls a power Puff power

(32:43):
Puff Girls Mojo Jojo. I mean like I was just him,
which I saw someone cause playing as Um. I just
loved the concept of this show also combined kind of
like that anime style for those of us that were,
you know, um getting into anime at the time. And um,

(33:04):
I think also just having these three girls that were
so different. Um, I definitely definitely felt like I was
Buttercup like im if he knows this about me? And
very type A. So I was like, she's the leader,
she's the type A, She's like you know. Um. They
also had different monsters every week like that to me
is really even just looking from an animated standpoint, Um,

(33:26):
I I loved all the colors, Like I just it
was such a for me. It just embodied who I
was at that time, in elementary school to middle school
and so that was like one of my favorite and
just seeing girls beat up people. Yeah, I mean yeah.
It was a solid show. And this was Craig McCracken,
who who like before that, worked on Two Stupids Dogs,

(33:47):
Space Ghost, Coast to Coast. He had an appearance as himself,
uh you know he did. He was on you know
what a cartoon obviously on Dexter's Lab, so he was
kind of like, you know, one of one of cartoon
networks guys and h you went on to EP Regular Show, writer,
storyboard artist for Chowder uh and uh. And his next

(34:09):
kind of big thing after that, which I remember being great,
was Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. So so Craig, you know,
definitely one of those folks who who was knocked it
out of the park. I was, I was, you know,
he also ePAT the pilot of Regular Show as well.
So so that was and we had all of those

(34:33):
Dexter and Powerpuff Girls and whatnot. And if we had
a spaceship, we had a robot named Tom, and we
had five hours anime programming. I don't even want to
go I don't even want to go too long into

(34:53):
this because it's gonna have to be its whole own episode.
This will be its own episode. Two Unami launched, and
that was that. That just pretty much I think that
brought the everyone to to Cartoon Network, like like it
was through the power of wea biness that we had
everyone there. Because that's how that's how I kind of

(35:15):
caught onto some shows that maybe weren't on my radar.
Was you get to Tunami a little earlier and you're like, oh,
what's this thing going on? Like if you prepared as
the opener for Tunami. You're in for some good traffic
because you you didn't because Tsunami was such an event
that even the interstitial stuff you wanted to see, like
all the like back and forth with Tom and seeing
what he has to say. So you were there early.

(35:38):
So so if you were, if you were a a
pre Twunami show, you definitely had eyes on you. We
had so, Jeff, I don't know what you um. I
know everyone knows what my favorite thing in Tunami is,
but we had Sailor Moon DBZ. Voltron Reboot also ended
up having Gundam Wing. I'm sure Tenchi Muyo later. Um,

(36:01):
was there a specific anime that you were tuning into for?
To me? Um, what's to no? No, I'm kidding. I
loved Reboot. Reboot was my big show. That was the
first one I really got into. But I think we
all know where this is going, and it's Dragon Ball Z. Yeah, yeah,
I might. I have an interesting thing with Dragon Ball

(36:22):
Zy where my friend was trying to get me to
watch it forever and I was like, I have no interest,
And the episode I finally watched it is, in hindsight,
probably the least interesting episode of the series. It's when
they're on the way to Dynamic and they run into
that ship Krillin and Boma and Gohan. No it's not

(36:43):
the one, because that would be hilarious. Um, they running, well,
they run into the ship of like it's like Little Boys.
It's kind of like a Robin or not rob like
a Peter Pan situation in space. And I think they're
trying to like take uh you know, Sea Fighter Team's ship.
And I was just enamored because I had never seen

(37:05):
anything like it, you know, and literally did. I didn't
even know who Gohan was, who Goku was. My first
introduces to the show is Gohan and Krylin. So um yeah,
I mean I don't know what have happened. If I
hadn't seen that episode, if I'd be like some giant
nerd who doesn't know about Dragon Bozzy, and that would
be sacrilegious. Oh yeah, I mean. Well, one thing I

(37:28):
want to go back and correct, which I totally did
forget about, was we we saw tom in when it
launched in we had space ghost villain Maltar running the ship.
It was him first, you know, pulling on the on
the ones and twos to drop these uh these these
little these cartoons for us, and I do, I do

(37:48):
remember that, but it's so it was such a small
piece of time because Tom is Tom. You don't think
of tonam without thinking Tom. But we doubt. I do
want to put the little respec on Multar for pulling
them and the levers to get us these animals right
uh right up top, you know, because it was it was,
it was good. Yeah. I didn't join and I think

(38:11):
until Tom was yeah yeah, because when like launched with
ThunderCats cartoon uh Roulette, which had like different old school
cartoons mixed in Voltron and Johnny quest so and then
the next year is when it went uh full anime.
So the first year was a wash. I probably didn't

(38:32):
even watch that the first year. The second year is
ten years. We are ten years old at this point, Danny,
is when we jumped over and we had Robotech, Beast Wars, Transformers,
Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Super Friends and that
is that. Now that is a lineup that is an
unbeatable lineup. And then we had in reboot Roman Wars

(38:56):
and power Puff Girls and then two thousand one of
the most I feel like slept on because I just
for some reason. This anime is just the design. The
idea of it was always tight g Force, Guardians of
Space Mobile Suit, Gundham Wing, Batman animated series, Tinchy Mullo,
Tinci Universe, Tinchi in Tokyo Blue Summer Number. This was

(39:20):
the era where there was way too many Tinchy shows.
I remember this. I was like, why why are there
so many Tinchy shows? Because like one was like an
actually like an actual like Samurai anime, and then there
was one that it felt like it was all about
the girls being horny for him, Like, uh, I don't
know which one, but it was wild? Um which one?
Did you? Uh? Well, I don't, you know. I think

(39:48):
everyone knows. Everyone knows. But it's so funny because looking
at these lineups, I remember getting them all and it's
so funny because we talked about this a ton of
times with dragon Ball Z, the the ever looping, never
being able to finish it, because in two thousand one
is when they showed dragon Ball after they ran dragon
Ball Z. So they showed dragon Ball after dragon Ball Z.

(40:10):
But this, I think, damn, I think this is the one.
This is this is the year two thousand one. You
had Outlast Star Big Oh, Card Captor, Sucura, Uh Mobile Suit, Gundam,
the eight MS Team and War in the Pocket, Zoid's
Batman Beyond and dragon Ball, And that might be one
of the hardest years. I like, we might have to

(40:32):
do a poll and see which one everyone like. If
only the show is listed, what's the year you're taking,
Because this really does feel like one of those house
memes because the it's it's great and it's truly sorry.
I might we gotta keep going because I'll get lost
into Nami. That was an era that is the foundations
of I would say, the foundations of the career I

(40:53):
sit on right now. Yes, that gave me my NERD credit.
I feel like it's animal Yeah I I I push
everyone to go through and look at those lines, because
it was like I was going back into my couch
every time I was reading these names. Because some you're
even forgetting. You're like, oh, yeah, I was watching Battle
and do not me. Oh I love I love being

(41:16):
a nerve. We have to take a really quick break.
But then next up m hm, we got when he
was talking about how a lot of adults watching these cartoons,
We're gonna talk about Adults Swim right after this, and

(41:38):
we're back, So we're hopping forward a little bit, uh
to two thousand and one. Sundays at ten pm, we
have Adult Swim. Now, if y'all remember, um the commercials
for this, do you remember it was like a bunch
of elderly people like coping into the pool and whatnot.

(42:00):
So this was mature content for older audiences, which if
you're a kid, there's no way you're turning the challenge. Wait,
you're turning in the channel if you if it was
the perfect marketing because you're gonna sit there a bunch
of kids and be like, all right, y'all gotta turn
now because it's about to be for the don't you
were like the hell I am? Uh? They had re runs, anime,

(42:28):
more anime that we couldn't technically watch on two Nami,
a lot of sketch comedy, and it kind of created
its own brand which still holds up today. Like I
think Adult Swim is considered you know, when I think
of the Adult Swim exhibit at Comic Con every year,
it's like kind of although it's a part of Cartoon Network,
it has it definitely is its own brand and own style. Um. Yeah, yeah, Jeff,

(42:53):
So do you remember like some of the original thing.
Were you watching Adult Swim at this time at two
thousand and one where you allowed to watching it. I
was the mature age of eleven, and I was ready
to watch Aquittine Hunger for Yeah. I think Family Guy
might No, Family Guy wasn't there yet, but I know
I was watching Aquutines. Um geez. I think Baby Blues

(43:14):
was on the first season. Uh, what do they have?
Home movies? Movies movies? We thought that was so gross
and weird. My brothers and I would watch that. I
was Yeah, I was very off put by the style
of home movies because I was so used to like, oh,
so this is is this occurred? What is this doctor

(43:35):
Cats coming out? Cats? Yeah? Yeah, I don't know. If
you're the one thing that always stands out to me
about home movies is, um, I forgot the little scruffy kids.
But he was like, yeah, my mom says, I have
cradle cap and he opens up. Do you remember that scene?
Every kid people at home are listening to this, Like,
I remember that he opened up his hair and you

(43:55):
can see it like on his scalp, his name, and um,
that is what stands out for me about movies. Yeah,
I know, yeah, they Adult Swim is interesting and this
is another thing that would probably get its own episode,
but because it was interesting seeing Adults Swim fall into

(44:16):
its voice, because it really definitely even from the beginning,
you could tell they had they slowly started like having
those bumps where they would say a little snarky things,
and then they just went to the all black and
I was like, oh, oh, what was this all about?
And then they're just having a combo with the audience
leading into things, and it was almost like, in a

(44:36):
weird way, they just kind of took the two Nami
formula and they're like, oh, we're just we're just kind
of like between bumps, talk to the audience before we
jump into stuff, but make it more adult snark humor.
And they and it seems like they really knocked it
out the part because people really just was vibing with it.
And then they started adding like flying Lotus and its

(44:58):
music in the back. It was yeah, Adult Swim really
grew into It's it's always cool to see something find
its voice and then like stick with it, and it
was and they they were holding it down, you know,
you had Adults Swim. They were kind of they eventually
slowly started taking the brunt of Tonami up until uh,
you know, Tunami was running like up until like two

(45:21):
thousand and eight, and then like then it was on
Adult Swim and they had the Anime block and that,
and then in two thousand twelve they brought to Nami back.
Uh so let's a and and and and they're going
hard with this. It's so funny because like I felt
the big oh too oh yeah, the weird second series though,
like I I always had like like all the stuff

(45:43):
they're showing on onto on the new two Namie, I'm like,
oh yeah, I'm watching it on your crunchy roll and
all that stuff. Because it's so funny that anime is
so accessible now. I mean, there's still nothing like watching
it for free if your parents have cable or if
you're under age and can't have a million streaming apps,
but it is like cool to see like just what

(46:04):
is kind of blowing up and it seems like what
the smart thing that Tunami is still doing is really
knocking out those like shown in anime that are popping
because all these you know, fire Force, you know, you
got my Hero, Demon Slayer Joe Joe, like, those are
the ones everyone's talking about anyway, So the kids are
still in on it. Kids are still in I think

(46:27):
to just getting to see because we know some of
those voice actors, at least for the English dub, so
I think just getting to see them in the stylized
Cartoon Network slash Tunami commercials, which were always super famous.
One of my favorites that I think everyone remembers from
Tunami was when they were um Future Trunks, when they're
advertising Future Trunks and it's him slashing through the screen um.

(46:52):
And so even now with one punch Man or Dragon
Ball Super when they had it on there, I don't
know if it's still on their replaying, although I wouldn't
doubt it. Um is is it's funny to get to
have that, like um those quick cuts of like a
very popular Tunami, like the style of Tunami commercials that
they would do to promote. One thing I did want

(47:14):
to bring up is in two thousand and six, Cartoon
Network actually had its first live action movie, which was reanimated.
It was very much in this style. I don't know
if you saw this, um if you're Jeff, but it
was in the style of Who Framed Roger rabbit Ish,
where it's like live action and the cartoons end up
turning into a show which was called Jimmy's Head Show

(47:38):
Out of Jimmy's Head. Yeah, yeah, um, but yeah. It
was kind of controversial because they started to go in
that direction of having more which we still see kind
of on adults women stuff, is having humans, and I
think that was kind of upsetting for some people that
were just like, no, this is cartoons only. Um, but

(47:59):
you even had on Space Coast there would be human guests. Yeah.
But I think a lot of people were scared that
this was going to turn into like what Nickelodeon is
or Disney, which is half and half. Um. I think
a lot of people didn't want that too to happen.
So I remember now now looking at it, Yeah, I

(48:19):
don't totally remember reanimated and out of Jimmy's Head. Yeah,
And I was people are like, oh, it's a cartoon network.
I was like, yeah, but it's still cartoon adjacent in
their defense, but you know, and this is like well
after two thousand and four, when they kind of rebranded
and had their originals only thing going on, and that's
when you had Mega's XLR Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends

(48:40):
and Hi, Hi Puffy Mommy. You MEI who I had
the biggest crush on? I was, I was, I was
all in. I was ready to go. I was like
taking me to Tokyo. I'm about to go out there
and meet him. Um it was. I was deep in.
Uh they were and it was in Papiami. Umi was
the this Japanese popra duo and they and it was

(49:02):
that perfect uh, that that style of where where they're like, Okay,
we kind of have a little street style, but also
we're like fun and they they were. It's they were
just like super super big. And then they had a
show and in the US that kind of uh really
we were like okay, who are these and then we
kind of knew him as though. The people who did

(49:24):
the intro to Teen Titans and we're like, okay, well
y'all did that. We messing with you that that intro
did slap. I would be remiss slash. Also not wanting
to get hate mail if we don't bring up Samurai Jack.
Don't put some respect on Samurai Jack. I think all
of us watched it, I you know, that animation style,

(49:46):
classic animation style, so recognizable. UM also wanted to give
a shout out to Billy and Mandy. A lot of
people repped Billy and Mandy. Yeah. Um, but now, Jeff,
we're kind of approaching you'll or the current present day
cartoon network, UM, which we have Craig of the Creek,

(50:06):
which we said is is nominated for an Emmy. UM,
how do you feel? I mean, I feel like y'all
have been groundbreaking, like literally groundbreaking at this channel, but
also an animation. Do you feel like there is a
lot of pressure on the show to two you know,
I just I'm curious, like as a creator and and

(50:28):
being groundbreaking what that means as far as artistic freedom
for Craig of the Creek. Huh. I mean, I don't.
I think there's a lot of pressure in the sense
of wanting to do things that need to be done
and doing them correctly, you know, like because we're following
like Stephen Universe and Clearance and a lot of other

(50:50):
shows that were able to like really inform and really
I think help like just you know, show people like
that people are different and who people love are different,
or people's skin color is different, and you know, like
these are characters you can like and empathize with and
see yourself in. And I know that's something that we

(51:11):
really wanted to do on CREG just from day one. Um,
I think we've done a fine job so far of
just really like trying to make things as the verse
as we can. But we're always pushing that envelope. We're
always trying to make sure that like people are addressing
characters the way they should be, you know, if somebody
is non binary, or addressing them by the proper pronouns

(51:34):
and stuff, because that's stuff super important and it's super
important to instill that into kids now, Like you know, Um,
I think that the better we are and like really
hitting those things and really showing that, like there's gonna
be different types of people that you're going to encounter,
and they are no less valid than anyone else. Everyone
is at this together. All these kids play harmoniously, and

(51:57):
all these kids appreciate each other and love each other,
and that's something that so many people need to do. Um.
So I guess there's a pressure in it, but I
think it's the societal pressure that everyone has. I think
that you know, I'm not under any more pressure than
you or if you or anyone else. It's just we
want to make sure that we have this platform and

(52:17):
we're using it properly. And I think that's one of
the ways we can do it. Um. I you know,
there's a lot of eyes on the show, and yeah,
I just want to make sure that we're getting the
best message out that we can. Yeah, I think of
when I think of my friend Laula, who does a
Costa grandees Over, which is a spinoff of Loudhouse. Um,

(52:39):
this Chicano Family. For me, it's just kind of I
think pressure in like if this doesn't do well, like
when will we get this again? You know, it's kind
of like what we're talking about, Like we just don't
get to really have a lot of animators and creators
of color that are getting to as many risks. So
I guess it is cool that it's at Cartoon Network
because it does feel like a channel that has dived

(53:02):
into risks like and I think that is why a
lot of these are so successful, is because they let
their creators take big swings um, and a lot of
those payoff. But are there, um speaking as the head
writer writing, are there shows that have influenced your style.
Um yeah, I mean taking it back to something I

(53:24):
brought up earlier was Static Shock. That was a very
important show to me for so many reasons as a kid,
but also like they pushed the envelope a lot, and
they did things about race, and they did things about
like gun violence and so many things that we're still
dealing with today, which it seems kind of taboo to
bring up in cartoons for kids now, and they were

(53:45):
doing it, you know, twenty years ago, and I know
that stuff really affecting me and it helped me learn
and I think that when we get the opportunity to
kind of teach kids, that that's something that we need
to do. So um, there's that's been a big influence
for me. Also in the sense of like seeing a
black lead. That wasn't the thing I saw a lot.

(54:06):
It was always like you're the sidekick, you're the gero,
you're the nerd or the whatever, you know, like, and
that was something really important to us when doing Craig
is like, Craig is the lead, and he's not just
the nerd or the athlete or the you know what.
He's just a kid and everybody can just be a kid.
You don't have to have all these like, you know,

(54:26):
different pressures on you. So that's um for us. That's
like the big thing that we're thinking of. That's the
big thing that I'm always thinking of going into these stories.
It's just how can we make sure that, like this
show needs to speak to everyone, and yes, it needs
to speak to black people, and yes it does, I think,
and we should feel represented, but it also needs to

(54:48):
speak to everyone so they know that, you know, we're
all just people, you know. Yeah, feel that. I feel that.
I feel that I have a couple more questions. Unless
you have some questions. If he no, no, you can
go ask away. Well. As far as creators breaking into
this space, there's no one way to do it. I

(55:11):
know we all have like stumbled into not stumbled, but
like have different avenues that we have created for ourselves
in order to get to where we are. Is there
any advice that you give to young creators that are
like listening. I feel like we have a lot of
people that are trying to come up in the industry
right now that listen to Iffy Nice show. I don't
know if there's any advice that you could give them. Oh,

(55:34):
man um even just basic. Yeah, it's tough because, like
you said, there's so many different ways I think. Um,
you know, the basic answer is always like practice and
right and practice your craft, and I think that's important.
But a lot of it is experiences. You know, like

(55:55):
a lot of times your experiences reflect your writing or
reflect your art style. And it's very easy to fall
into a run. I know for me, especially in working
on stories, it's very easy to like come to it
from I have this background and this is how I'd
approached it. And sometimes you need those different experiences to
fully realize things. You have to be open, you have

(56:15):
to talk to people. You can't just assume that like, hey,
I'm gonna write this story and uh, there's gonna be
the Samoan character. I know nothing about Samoan people. So
like put in the work and learn the experiences and
try to reflect that in your story. But also like,
don't feel like you can't be yourself and what you're
working on too, Like you really need to infuse yourself

(56:37):
because that's what you're selling. You're selling your experience as
well as what you think other experiences are from your own,
like you know, going out there and learning and experiencing
different people's lives. I think also for me, and I'm
sure you feel this way too if he is like
not getting pigeonholed. Like, so, as a writer, you know,
the show that I sold was about my trauma like

(57:00):
experience in mental health care system. But I don't want
to just be the trauma comedy writer. I realized that
a lot of people were hitting me up to like,
you know, this is about mental health and this show
is about mental health, and I'm like, that's great. I
kind of just want to write a superhero show, you know.
I kind of just so the next thing that I'm
doing right now is an animated property that like doesn't

(57:20):
deal with hate crimes and doesn't deal with like you know,
it's kind of just like not not saying that you
can't do both. That's what I'm saying, is like don't
It's kind of like what you were saying, like no, no,
like your voice, but also know that that's not the
only story that you can tell. And so I was
just kind of tired of being the expert in trauma like,

(57:41):
but I also want to have joy, and I want
to see our characters having joy and being carefree and
like just getting to go to an amusement park for
the day or something and not have to worry about
their parents being deported. And it's just like so, so
I I would encourage people to um find their voice,
but also what are shows that bring you joy? And

(58:02):
watch those? And what I'm doing for my animated property
is I had to sit down and watch what is
out now. You know, it's not the same as when
I when I was younger watching. I have a great
animated background, but what are kids watching right now? So
I'm not pitching something that's already out there. Um And
just so I can know some of these conversations, like
you were saying, the conversations they have on Craig of

(58:24):
the Creek and on Stephen Universe are way different than
what they were allowed to have a decade or two ago.
That's on some of these these shows. So things have
elevated and um our characters are even allowed to be
even more fleshed out. Uh And And so I would
encourage anyone trying to jump into animation to watch a

(58:44):
lot of what is out right now. We did it,
we did it. We did not talk about every show.
I'm we will do a part two. I promise we
never can talk about every show, and that's why we
have episodes about shows. So this is a about the
journey to where what we've gotten from from Cartoon Network.

(59:06):
And if you have a show that you're like, oh,
I want to hear you'all talk about this, I gotta
do is gently tweet us. We'll put it on the roster. Jeff,
where can people find People can find me on Twitter
and on Instagram if you want to see drawings of
me done by more talented people at Mr Jeff trammel
u two elms, two els. And I will also tweet

(59:29):
about our show, our Emmy nominated show Until you went
in where you can watch it all right? Uh? And me?
You know I'm always if you wide away, Twitter, Instagram,
if d's on Twitch, the Salt Squad grows every you
know y'all have been in there. You know Jeff's been playing.
If y'all, if y'all think you'all can beat Jeff at

(59:49):
Dragon Ball fighter Z, pull up, I'm gonna let you
know right now you probably can't. I know you good.
Jeff is nice. Jeff is so nice that we had
some dude come in from the chat and he was like, oh,
is there a skilled Limon And I was like, no,
This boy came and watched us, and then he got
Jeff once and then he was talking about how he'd
be training and all this stuff, and then Jeff came
back and beat him. So so so let's say, Jeff,

(01:00:13):
it's nice with it. Uh So, so come come, come
with the heat. We're gonna we're gonna get back to
what everyone's been. Have him dying, uh to have me
do it again? And Zeno voice of Hawks that he
wants in next time. So it'll be fun. You'll get
to get washed by by the creator of Craig's Creek
and possibly the voice of Hot. But you know, if

(01:00:34):
you need to feel good your boy out here. Me
I'm still learning, don't worry. I'm gonna I'm gonna get
one of these fiber classes going. And then one day
I'm just gonna come back like a big boy and
Jeff ain't gonna know what hit him. That's that's my
new that's my new limit. Right now? Where am I

(01:00:54):
I am? Miss Danny Fernanez and all the things. And
also if he and I um both were on a
called the Great Debate, which came out this week, so
check it out. It's on sci Fi. It's a bunch
of nerds and comedians arguing about comedy nerds things. It's
very funny. So I saw some people in the comments like, oh,

(01:01:15):
you know, but I'm like, this is not a straight
statistical like you know in this season of Batman. He
blah blah blah. It's it's nerdy comedy people being nerdy
comedy people. So it's very entertaining. And watch it. It's
on sci Fi get Out dropping every week for the
next month. All right, Uh well, I guess that's also

(01:01:37):
I guess one. Is it the way we normally in
this and say say