June 30, 2020 • 52 mins
Dani Fernandez is joined by Emma Fyfe and Chris Lamb, as they discuss the professional fan art that is dōjinshi. A form of fan-fiction, by young manga makers, these unlicensed mangas continue storylines, deepen, characters, and sex up some favorite ships from popular manga series. Once an underground industry, dōjinshi is now growing into a popular, legal, art and legitimizing creators across Japan.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, welcome to another edition of Notificent. I am one
half of your host Danny Fernandez. Today I'm joined by
two of my dear friends that I've known for years,
for actual years, and I'm really excited for them to
tell you about their podcast because I've been involved in
a way. Um but today we are talking about do
(00:30):
Jin Shei, which if you don't know what it is,
we're going to get into it. And I'm joined by
hosts and writers and my close personal friends Ema five
in Chris Lamb, Hello, Hi, thank you so great to
virtually be here. I know I miss I miss us.
I guess we're kind of like we always see each
other at events, right, like cons and er. It's one
(00:57):
of the weirder things I think is that you know,
even people in in our profession who largely are freelancers,
and you often are working independently at home unless for
whatever reason you know you're lucky enough like oh you're
in a writer's room or you're on set that day
or whatever. There is a lot of sort of independent
work that goes into it. But because a lot of
(01:18):
what we do work wise takes us out to events,
I feel like I'm often so busy that conventions are
when I see all of my friends that I would
normally just see in Los Angeles anyway, but we never
have time for each other in l A. I know,
I Christ, do you feel the same way I do? Um,
that's kind of one of the um things about having
(01:41):
good tastes and friends and aligning yourself with people who
you know who know their stuff is that they are successful,
and oftentimes that means that, UM, it can be hard
to catch up, but you know, it's definitely something that um,
I try to accept, but it's also hard re accepting
it in this different context, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind
(02:03):
of weird because I was really mixed about Comic Con
being canceled because that's so many people like I feel
for the artists, like I feel for the people who
really bank on making a lot of money at that
time and they that's like, uh there, yeah, time to
shine For me as a creator. It was kind of
like it felt like I could catch my breath, like
(02:24):
you know, and it was just like it's an honor
and a privilege to be able to do as much
as we do. However, con season is just kind of
one thing after another after another, and sometimes I believe
in like quality over quantity, I would say, and so
it's just nice getting to me. It was like so
mixed because it was like I have so much anxiety,
(02:45):
especially as an extroverted introvert. I feel like that is
a thing maybe like all of us are where we
like are very um passionate about our craft and really
good at what we do, and we're like on camera,
but when we're off camera, it's kind of like, Okay,
this is my little shell and please don't invade my bubble.
I'm really you know, And so just the whole anxiety,
(03:06):
and I think there's an extra level of it's become
really Hollywood, like it's maybe I've been going since I
was eleven, and it's really Hollywood now, Like they have
shows they promote that aren't even nerdy. It'll just be
like Kenna ken Wait or like you, I mean young Sheldon,
I guess is ners still it'll be Yeah, It's true
like that there is with with San Diego Comic Con,
(03:28):
particularly there there is this very extreme level of marketing
that's going on. And yet because you do still have
your you know, obviously in in recent years they've pulled out,
but until very recently, you would have your big Marvel
Cinematic Universe paneling, you would have your big Marvel Television
panel and your Warner Brothers panel, and so you did
(03:50):
feel like you still really had to be there or
you were going to be missing out on something. I
know exactly how you feel about Danny because I felt
the same way where I was like, it's kind of
a relief in some ways, but on the other hand,
then in my like Instagram memories, a picture came up
of like me and and Xander genre I think, like
(04:11):
out drinking on that Wednesday when everyone's first getting into
town in San Diego, and I was like, I don't know,
it is really fun though, so I just I was
gonna say what I feel about it being Hollywood as
it turns into like, hey, did you get into this party?
Got into this party? And can you get me into
this party? And it's just that's not what it is.
It reminds me exactly what happened to us when we
(04:32):
were kids, like when we were nerds, and now we're
being treated like nerds again because they're not other party
and party right, and it's like, oh, you didn't get
into the e W party? Okay, well, you know, maybe
we'll meet up with you after. It's just like, it's
just like I did not live my life as I'm
not going to get in so let yeah, these popular
(04:55):
Hollywood people make me feel bad. So that's the other side.
I think that a lot of people don't see for
at least for us. And so when it was postponed
or canceled or whatever, I was like, oh my gosh,
the idea that I'm not going to have to deal
with the flaunting who you know, who's at this and
who got on what panel? Who is doing so much?
And like, I mean, I will say that just in
(05:19):
on the sort of opposite end of the San Diego
comic con spectrum, what I have found to be. I mean, obviously,
there are tons of small conventions around the world that
really are more focused on, um, celebrating people coming together
to enjoy something that they love, as opposed to as
you say, be seen at a party. Um. But I
will say that my experience was Star Wars Celebration was
(05:42):
much more like those small conventions, which is like everyone
at Star Wars Celebration was there because they loved Star Wars.
There weren't any cool parties that people were worried about
getting into. Everybody who normally are peers who are in
again at that level at San Diego Comic Con, of
possibly some of them do get invited to the w
party and if you're not one of them, then you're
(06:02):
not doing as well as everybody else. At Stars Celebration,
like everyone was just hanging out with the Merriott bar,
it was so much more low key, um and it really,
it really was. It was so much fun. It was
so so much fun. Um. So yeah, that you know, conventions,
they're they're they're a mixed bag. But you know idea,
I was going to say, it's like apples and oranges
at this yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's my and
(06:26):
I do love Saneo. Comic Con has been like my
you know, home and love and stuff since my family's
from San Diego, so it's been a huge part of
my growing up. It was just watching it change, I
think is why it was kind of just like relieved
to get a break from it, because it is has
turned very like I said, Hollywood, and so it just
(06:47):
is kind of for me. I was like, oh, finally
I don't have to deal with like the Hollywood networking
like media con that it has become, and you know,
can geek out about things with my friends on this podcast.
Speaking of geeking out, UM, as you all know, every
week we talked about something that we're nerding out about,
and Chris, I wanted to ask you first, is there
(07:08):
anything that you're super into right now? I'm so happy
you asked that. So I think for me, I'm really
excited about, you know, miss everything going up in flames
and us in this time of heaval right now, I
have been anticipating the game Ghost of Tsushima. Oh and
(07:31):
can you tell people what it's about? I don't know. Yeah.
So it is a RPG made by Sucker Punch. It
was announced in two thousand seven, two thousand sorry, two
thousand eighteen. I believe UM and they were really inspired
by Kurosawa films basically, UM, the very famous black and
white samurai films. If you're not familiar with them, I
(07:52):
was not until I heard about Sushima. That's how I
get into a lot of things through video games. And UM,
I've been actually watching Karrosawa films and kind of preparation
for the game, and it's been really really educational and UM,
the actor that he has in the two movies that
(08:12):
I watched, Seven Samurai and Yo Jimbo. He is very
very hot. He's dead now, but he's hot. Um. I
think you would really like him, Danny. No. I mean
I feel that way about the guy who plays Satan
in The Holleen Man. He's past, but he'll live on
very hotly in my heart. He just has like he
(08:32):
just has like that level of drip before like drip
was invented, you know, Like that's what I'm talking about,
you know, Like he has like there's like this really
great picture. I should send it to you. Like there's
this great picture where he has like he does that
thing where like he takes his arm and like he
puts it back into his shirt and like he is
(08:52):
like rubbing his five o'clock shadow like through um the
neck hole of his uh yukata kimono. Situation. That was
really hot that you did it, though. It was thank you,
thank you, thank you. Um what about you, Emma, what
are you geeking out about? Oh? Well? I finally came
(09:13):
around to playing Persona five Royal. So I played the
original Persona five, which was released in two thousands sixteen,
or maybe it was early seventeen. Somewhere in that time period,
um uh and I had been wanting to play Royal Edition,
which is just like the expanded remastered version. They've added
a bunch of new characters and new gameplay elements that
(09:35):
actually are really really good. It makes it totally worth
replaying a hundred plus our game. Um but I had
not necessarily been ready to jump into it. So it
came out right before the Final Fantasy seven remake was released.
It came out like end of March, and Final Fantasy
seven Remake came out April ten, So I went, I
don't really want to get into this one. I know
(09:55):
that I'm going to start the Final Fantasy seven remake.
And then when I finished remake, I went, I don't
really have the emotional energy for persone of five yet.
But then all of a sudden, I was struck with
I needed to play this game, and it has been
so so much fun, particularly to play it on my
Twitch stream with an audience. It's just like again, I'm
(10:17):
loving all of the changes that they made to the game.
The new characters are all super interesting. I just met
the school psychologist, who was a new addition to Royal addition,
and like, let me tell you, he keeps offering me
to come to his office to have some snacks. You
a snack onto yourself, Like, ah, this isn't anything new
(10:39):
to the original game. That Danny just to let you
know there are adults that have a crush on the
high school boy. It's very complicated problem. Sorry, okay, I
don't pay attention. No, yeah, but no, no, no, this
this I just don't write me. I do not play
this game. I don't know what you guys were talking about,
but I just heard. No shame. Just know that there
(11:01):
there is um equally as intense things happening in the
original Yes, um yeah, this has not crossed any lines
as of yet. But listen, he's I am an adult woman.
I am into this character, an adult man. Let me
be right, right right, there's there's game play. There's role playing,
(11:25):
a role playing game. So you're right, you're right, You're right. Um.
The thing that I'm geeking out about is actually uh
an artist named Sailor Jubs. She's Julia Mellow. She's a
Brazilian artist, and um, she needed too. She was taking
commissions because she just moved and wanted to pay for
her apartment, and so I bought up a bunch of
(11:47):
commissions and had her do my friends and so she
did amazing artwork, Like some of y'all saw it on
my feed. It was so real. She got Danielle Radford
who's been on our Buffy episode, Joel Monique, who is
our producer who's listening right now. Um, she did Sabina
(12:07):
Graves who was on our Haunted Mansion episode. She did
my friend Kata and Dreusco. Like but just like so
spot on, and I can tell you all, this is
such a great gift. It wasn't even that much like
she was. You know, she had full body or half
body commissions where she would do a portrait of your
friends and it's like such a great surprise, or like
if it's someone's birthday, it was to be in his birthday,
(12:29):
so I sent hers to her. But like, it was
just so spot on, and it helped this independent artist
pay for her apartment, and it also was a great
gift for my friends. So again she goes by at
sailor Jubs it's j U b S. And she is
such a great artist and just really kind. Yeah, I
when you posted those photos I or that artwork. Rather
(12:53):
I scrolling through, I didn't have to like see who
was tagged in which picture. I knew exactly who everybody was.
It was so and it was so great and it
was just like we all have different skin tones, we
all have different hair textures, and like she was just
able to capture everybody's beauty and um, that was just
I just thought she did such a great job. So
(13:15):
props to her. And we're talking about art today. Art.
So for people who don't quite know or haven't heard
the term DUGITSI like, what is that? Well, it is
it is very simply fan created works that are typically
(13:38):
derivative of, uh an existing piece of fiction. So while
in the States, I think we tend to think of
it as only being fan created comics, it also is
a term that applies to like fan art collections or
two published light novels. The key is is that it
is people self publishing. Like I said, it is largely
(14:02):
um work that is derivative of other works, but it's
not necessarily like bottom line has to be in order
to be considered Dogenci, Right, yeah, yeah, So the way
I was going to explain it to people is like,
if you know fan fiction, which is like if you
read say, Harry Potter fan fiction, that's not written by J. K.
(14:23):
Rowling or any of the other authors that have been involved.
It is um by fans, and so this is fan
created art. So it looks like manga, looks like a
comic book. Um, very beautiful drawing some of them. I mean,
you can't really tell between the original manga d I
mean you definitely come across Dogenci creators who are real
(14:46):
good at mimicking the art style of the original. Yeah.
So the only difference between mainstream manga and original Dogenci
Dogenci is that Dogenci is not public by a publishing company,
itself published. Yeah, it's it's kind of the same way
that fan works. And honestly, you know, like let's plays
(15:08):
on video games, right, It's it's all done with the
unspoken agreement between the fan community and the original creator
that like, you know, okay, like you know, I'll I
won't do anything because this is really good for the
community and I want to support other artists, and this
is a great way for artists to get their work
out by using you know, in a pre existing I
(15:28):
p so um. But if they wanted to they could. So,
what was your first the first dogenci that you stumbled upon? Well,
let me see, I I had a I really think
(15:48):
I was aware of doginci in the same way that
a lot of people in the US become aware of doginci.
And and what I do believe is and really be
attitude that a lot of Westerners have towards do ginci
um is that it is all uh, adult in nature,
shall we say? Um? So, I think the first sort
(16:10):
of doginci that I ever came across it was just
I was really into this um this computer game called
Ragnarok Online. Uh, and for whatever reason, there was just
an influx of dojinci um that was, you know, kind
of of the tentacle porn variety, shall we say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(16:32):
which I which I came across um. But I definitely
also uh, as I got more involved in fandom and
in fan works, Uh, the first ones I can remember
where there was really like a story to be followed,
and they weren't all necessarily like really explicit in nature,
(16:54):
though they were like shown and I stories are like
boys love, which is a big um sub genre with
INJOGINCHI in particular, but it was like Gundam wing Um
because that was airing onto Nami in like early two thousand's,
I want to say. And so at that point we
had also like just gotten high speed internet. Uh, and
I I did what all not all, but many many
(17:16):
young women who get into that particular show or any
any other number of shows where the majority of characters
are the primary characters are young attractive men, you know,
b shownn um. And I started off being like, I
don't really like any of the girls on this show.
I'm gonna write fan fiction um. And I was writing
like Mary sus um, which if you don't know what
(17:39):
a Mary Sue is, it's a It's a very uh
idealized female character, often seen a sort of a self
insert when creating fan works. But then I pivoted completely
into being like, no, I want these boys to kiss
each other um and uh and yeah, so I would
say that there there was definitely some like Hiro Duo,
Gundham wing Ocean she that I And it was the
(18:02):
same thing where it's like I started with like dipping
my even though again I'd already I had gone like
full tentacle porn, and I was like I need to
step back from this. So I was like, oh, this
is like kind of a nice love story and like
they kiss but it's not anything explicit, or maybe they
even just hold hands, but you know that. I then
I pivoted into full on pornography. But yeah, wow, what
(18:23):
about you, Chris. Yeah, so I started. I can remember
it like it was yesterday. Um, it was Naruto and
Sauce easily. And I definitely was kind of in the
similar trajectory of like, Okay, you know this is shown
and I, which is known to be not porn you know,
(18:45):
it's it's very light romance. It's about the romance, not
about the sex, you know. And so I was like, hmmm,
this is a little boring for me. I want something
a little bit more raunchy than this. I want to
see them actually do things. And so I looked further.
I found what I wanted, and I also found a
lot more narrowto ships, because I mean there's so many
(19:05):
characters in there. Obviously it's tread or show really um
awesome as Sen Sa Kakashi and Dha Sen say um.
And then I think that was kind of like my
gateway into ntai proper. And then my gateway into actual
porn with real people. There's this weird trajectory. I I'm
(19:26):
pretty sure I've told Emma this before on the podcast Live,
where I had this weird sense of like, oh, these
aren't real people, and so like I'm better than most
of the people that are actually watching actual porn, Like
that's for the really raunchy and sinful people in this world.
And then I just joined them. That's so funny to
(19:48):
be like I'm observing art. Yes, yes, that I think
that is exactly the attitude that that a lot of
people have is yeah, you're like, these these are drawings,
this is artwork. Somebody like took the time to do this.
I mean they are very beautiful, meticulous art, but also
boobies yep, yep. Um mine was I talked on y'all's podcast,
(20:12):
and mine was Vegeta and Boma from Dragon ball Z.
Because I think when you look for it's the same
reason you reach out and read fan fiction is when
you're looking up do Ginci is because you're looking for more.
You want to like see the things that they're not
showing on the show. Yes, exactly right, exactly right. Yeah,
(20:33):
So you're like, what what is happening when they're not fighting?
What is happening when the TV turns off? And so um.
So that's why I was looking at Vegeta Boma and
they have beautiful, great, also very sexual um strips, you know,
these manga strips of them. So we're actually going to
(20:53):
dive into the history of do Ginci right after this
and we're back. I'm still here with Emma and Chris.
We're trying to not be too spicies, just spicy enough
(21:15):
because y'all are gonna y'all are gonna go and look
at you know, we will tweet some of our favorites
that were allowed to allowed to post, so okay, so
we'll we'll get more into this as we get deeper
into the history of DOI. But one of the reasons
that do has been able to continue to exist without
any pushback from publishers is because it doesn't have mass
(21:38):
market distribution. Yeah, I mean that's true. They can sell
it though, because by so technically they are making money
off of To me, it kind of reminds me though,
like we were just talking about Comic Con, when you
go to artists Ali and the print of Iron Man
and so that artist is able to make you know
(21:59):
their own R in their style, but using an I
Marvel I P. But however they can make money off
of it, correct, Yeah. Yeah. Usually the way that I've
noticed that a lot of people sell it if they
decided to sell it online, you know, like publicly like
easily findable, is they won't name the I P that
it's from or the character. Right then it'll be like,
(22:21):
you know, if they're selling like a Sailor moon fan
at Princess something that reminds me of like in Mexico
there's dragon ball Z toys and it will just be
Power Up Man and it'll be like like it'll just
be like but it'll be Superman's body and Goku's hair.
It was amazing, amazing Golden Power Boy. Okay. So the
(22:47):
history of jo gin Shei. The pioneer among jo ginchi
magazines was actually Morning Bell. It was published in the
early Meiji period since eighteen seventy four. It's not a
literary magazine, but it played a big and spreading the
idea of dogin she So. The first magazine to publish
do gin Shei novels was Library of Odds and Ends.
(23:09):
It was founded in eighteen eighty five by writers Ozaki
Koyo and Yamada Bimo. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was
all the way back then. Yeah. I also, I also
love the name Library of Odds and Ends. I think
that's such a cute name. I know, it sounds like
it could be like a cute Netflix show that they
like Visit Different. Yeah, it's it is. It's really interesting
(23:32):
to see people that are pioneering in the field of
like self publishing or publishing fan derivative works. It's amazing
to think, like, oh man, because I mean you think
about it, I'll bet that back in the day, in
the in the days of like the Greeks and Greek mythology,
there were people out there that were that were writing
(23:53):
fan fiction about the gods. I mean, that's basically what
it was. It was all just like word of mouth
stories being like, yo, if you heard this story about Zeus, no,
tell me more, you know, right, I mean, like he
owns the rights to that, No, yeah, exactly exactly. So
fast forward to Comic cat which is the world's largest
comic convention. Is that still true to this day? Yeah,
(24:15):
Oh definitely, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it's certainly in terms
of the distribution of dojin Chi. Comic Cat is like
the event. Oh I would I would say that Comic
Cat is actually so well known that is actually featured
in like Slice of Life anime world, you know, like
(24:36):
especially right when when you have anime that's about like
manga cow or people that really love drawing, or people
that are into Yawi, which yes, there are animals that
are now about people that like Yawi. Yeah. Can you
tell people that Yeaowe is for people that don't know
yea and I would I would love to Danny think
so much. Um Yawe is basically manga that is implied
(25:01):
to be smutty that's usually between two men and with
very large hands. Funny, how funny? Um okay So. Comic Head,
which is the world's largest comic convention We've fast forward
uh century, is held twice a year in Tokyo, Japan,
(25:22):
and the first one was held in December with only
thirty two participating circles and an estimated six hundred attendees. However,
about eight of them were female, which I find so fascinating,
like scrapping, Yeah, because women were having a hard time
getting published. Imagine that, uh So, I think that is
(25:45):
why there is a lot of participation from women. And also,
as Chris and I've talked about pretty extensively even on
this episode of the podcast. Up to this point, there
is this big market for yahwee and shown and I stuff, um,
which wouldn't necessarily be published by publishers because you're dealing
with a taboo subject of homosexuality. Um. Even though a
(26:09):
lot of the time the shown and I and yahwe
stuff is a little problematic because it's really women projecting
their sexual fantasies into a scenario wherein there are no women.
It's gotten a lot better in more recent years. Um.
But yeah, I mean because because of that, it was
it was allowing women to put work out there to
(26:29):
be purchased by other women. Yeah. And that's the thing is,
I don't know if you like so much of um DOGENTI.
At least the ones that I am into is very romantic.
It's very like heavy. You can feel that even the men.
We talked about this on my episode of the show,
they are kind of drama in a feminine way. There's
so much really female gayzey boma and do a boma
(26:53):
and vegeta DOGENI. It's kind of amazing, especially when you
consider the fact that that dragon Ball on a base
level is marketed towards men, towards boards specifically. Um. But
the fact that you know, you do have all of
these women fans, I think that's another reason why you
do see so many um, dog Chi Car Doginci creators,
(27:13):
uh and Dogenci circles. So so like creators kind of
all come together when it comes to do Ginci, and
unlike in manga where typically it's the same person who's
drawing and writing the story, with Dogencia, a lot of
the time you will find like, oh, so and so
did the art, but some other person did the story
or somebody did the backgrounds, and like they're ultimately kind
(27:33):
of giving more credit than like a single manga car
who certainly has assistance. Um. But I think, yeah, it's
like you're also dealing with all of these women that
enjoy uh media that is more targeted towards men, but
they're getting something out of it, and so, as you say, Danny,
like they want to write those stories of what we're
(27:55):
not seeing when they're not fighting. You know, Yeah, it's
kind of the sense of removing the male gaze and
just really making work that appeals to that sensibility, right,
because you know, obviously probably men were still uh inserting
themselves into everything back then. So which isn't to say
(28:15):
that there's not a lot of really weird you know,
objectifying of women that happens in do jin chi and
stuff that's really male gazey. Oh, that is very much
out there as well, absolutely, um, and I think, oh sorry, Um,
I just wanted to also mention, like I wanted to
kind of emphasize how secretive this whole especially, Yeah, we
(28:40):
had to be back then, right, because it even came
in the term which we discussed in our podcast of
the term fujoshi, which is referring to the women that
enjoy Yawi and shann and I, and basically, roughly translated,
it means rotten women like rotten, like like fermented rotten,
you know, like ye smelly smelly. Yeah. So so okay,
(29:04):
so women who enjoy gay art essentially as run. But
is that term also for the men or is it
just the women that are So it's it's a really interesting, uh,
this situation because you know, we've talked a lot about
shoon and I in about Yahwi, which is created almost
(29:25):
exclusively by women and for women. There's another completely separate
subset of like gay porn effectively in the dogon Chi market,
which is bata, which is like fours that is actually
created like four gay men. It's very it's very interesting. Okay,
(29:46):
So I wasn't aware that Yeahwi was mainly for what
it's for women and it's almost exclusively created by women.
I did not, I know, isn't that fascinating? Well, Chris,
I mean, I hope this is okay because we're such
close friends. But like, was that I mean when you
said that you were watching Yeah, like are looking at
yahwe like when you were maybe before you came out
(30:08):
or whatever. Like I guess I'm trying to say, like
is it since it's just for women, but it seems
like a lot of gay men are consuming it and
finding Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, obviously, I definitely
think we're in a point right now where a lot
of men have been inspired by yeawe that was originally
started by women, and now there are plenty of gay
artists that I do follow that um also participate in
(30:30):
this Yahwe seen. But um, yeah, definitely, I think it
would be more apt to kind of talk about. I
think M also has plenty of examples to about just
like kind of the maybe the aspects of problematic nous
that we've seen, because I think they're pretty common. Like
the most common that I've seen is like two guys
(30:50):
and then this guy who's like, you know, a ladies man.
He's like, oh, you know, I usually don't go for guys,
but it's a common trope in porn. Yeah. Yeah. Another
thing that comes up a lot I feel like is
again it's even though it is two men, they're still
very clearly defined roles as far as like who the
(31:14):
more feminine one is the more submissive one, in which
one is the like dude in this relationship. And as
I say, like, this is something that has gotten better
over time. Um, but you know, especially if you look
at some some early examples, it's like, okay, well, all right,
this is about two men, but really it's about women
(31:36):
being okay with enjoying sex. Like truly, that's what I
think of, you know, and you prefaced this before we
got you know, at the top of this times. But digen,
she is not just sexual, No, it's not at all,
Like there are their entire threads and volumes that don't
have sex. It's just when you're this is often a
lot of kids that are into anime. It's kind of
(31:58):
like what we're all saying, like this is our the
break between this and like actual people are watching ports
like when we're exploring I think I found it in
middle school, and so you're kind of just like, who
are these characters that I trust? Right? It feels like
a safe space because this is like your your animated
show that you're into, but it has some adult themes
most anime does, um, and so now you're kind of saying, like, oh,
(32:21):
this is their dating life. Okay, so this is okay,
they've gone on a couple of dates now and they
like each other, and now they're gonna possibly explore sleeping together.
Like it's kind of like y a novel, like totally,
so they're not all yeah, they're not all sexual, and
like I really do want to say that it's a
lot of them is just like regular comic books. Yeah,
(32:42):
and even as you say some of the ones that
are are sexual, it does have that gradual build up
two characters being intimate with one another, and so I
you know, I think as far as do Ginci goes
in some ways, Japan ends almost more respectful of fan
(33:03):
derivative works than the US is because again, as we saw,
this kind of publication has been going on in Japan
since the hundreds, um, which is crazy. Uh, but which
isn't to say that it hasn't been happening in the US.
And certainly, you know, early examples of fan fiction and
(33:25):
things in order to get any sort of distribution prior
to the Internet would appear in things like science fiction
magazines and other little publications like that. Um. But I
think that there's this weird stigma in the US against
fan fiction that is getting better of like that somehow
it does not take skill, it is not art and
(33:47):
yeah in some respects sure, but but Japan really has
this attitude with Ginchy of well, these artists need to
get experience. Uh, they need to get some kind of exposure.
And so you know, big publishing companies are absolutely looking
at what's out there in the dogen C market and going, hey,
this person is really good. We should hire them to
(34:08):
do something. And in addition to again providing you with
an outlet to just create and not have to worry
about creating the world just taking characters that you already
know when you already like all of that is really positive.
And then, as you say, Danny, there is the sexual
aspect of it as well, because again it is not
exclusively adult in nature, but the stuff that is you
(34:29):
as a teen, because I'm I'm the same as you.
I think I read my first Dogen when I was
in middle school or early high school, and you are
then able to kind of like explore your sexuality in
a really safe way, yeah, and talk to the most
of like the places that I would UM frequent had
like chat rooms and stuff that I was I was
(34:51):
in and we would talk about the DOGENTI that we
had read, or the fan fiction that we read. We
would link the fan fiction that we liked, and it's
just you know, I was just thinking about this as
I'm like working on this show right now that is
has middle schoolers as the main um characters, and it's
really fascinating because it's such an necessary you know, they're
(35:12):
not quite a little kids anymore, You're not quite they're
not quite adults, and like it's still a necessary conversation
for both middle school and high school. I think the
hands off approach of like pretending that they're not going
to get you know, exploring or whatever is so not helpful,
and even a lot of times people try to spin
it to be perverse, like, well, you're talking about kids
(35:34):
and sex like no, but also I lost my virginia
when I was a teenager, and it would be great
if I had. You know, a lot of those are
virginities as teenagers, and like it's in most media, most
shows that you watch about high schoolers or college I
mean or college kids. But like most shows that you
watch that have high schoolers or movies that have high schoolers,
they're exploring, and I think that it's instead of hands off,
(35:57):
like you can't watch this, you can't look at this,
you can't whatever, is more like, let me make sure
you have the resources so you know what consent is,
so you know what um you know protection and think
like I'm just so in the opposite direction where I'm
very like and that's what I mean when I say
sex positive, and it's like, you know, I lost my
virginity to another teenager, so it wasn't like you know
(36:20):
those things to and that's okay, And we need to
like normalize having these conversations about like not. I mean,
I had to hide everything from my parents. And I
think I think that's why people when they hear di
Genti or anime. Even when they hear anime, they immediately
think of tentacle, tentacle porn and hent I like um,
(36:40):
and it's just seen as like that's one aspect of it.
It's just kind of exploring these relate what dating is
like when you're in middle school in high school, you
I think my first boyfriend, you know, we only like
mad my made out or whatever. But like I think
my first boyfriend was in middle school, and so it's
like you're starting to develop. And even if my parents
(37:02):
were like, no, don't do it, I'm still going to
do it. And so it's just like allowing kids to
have art and literature that is, treats them like in
a respectable way of what they're dealing with and not
like they're dumb, like you know, idiot said, don't know
what's going on. That's a really good point because I
never really thought about it. But really it was do
(37:26):
Ginci that gave me a sense of representation actually for
the first time in my right sure. Yeah, like like
literally it was fan works. Yeah, and so there needs
to be, like I think, just a level of respect
for this art and think of the people that are
making them. They probably are also dealing with those issues
of sexual identity, totally interpression, oppression, not being able to
(37:49):
come out to their family. So this has definitely been
a safe space. I feel for a lot of us.
We have to take a really quick break, so much
more to talk about. We're gonna talk about a little
bit more of its history and the future. Right after
these messages we are back. I'm still here with Emma
(38:13):
and Chris. So for people that are new to do Genti, like,
what is this word? They keep saying, what are some
like famous anime that have really cool do Genti that
you would be like, Oh, if you're into this, you
should check out this. Okay, Listen, I went full tilt
(38:33):
into do Gentci again as as an adult, again as
a as a teen. I was real good at the Internet.
I was fine at all this do Genti. I was
reading that that gunn Bing stuff, I was reading the
dragon Ball, sailor Moon all of it. What really tilted
me right back into it because actually, ury on Ice nice. Okay,
(38:55):
So some people that don't know that can you explain
it to ury on ice is a gay fake your
skating anime. It's beautiful and it also was kind of
I don't want to say revolutionary, but it was important
from the perspective of it. Really was it amidst all
(39:16):
of the amazing figure skating drama. By the way, I
watched this show like it was real figure skating. I
was like freaking out when people would skate. Um. But
there is this very wholesome gay love story in it
that's not really refuted. It's so interesting because there's a
scene in it where the two main characters kiss, but
like the like URI's just finished skating, and so like
(39:40):
Victor like jumps onto the ice to give him a hug,
and like the angle of his arm is such that
you can't see that the two of them are kissing.
But like, it was mostly Western fans that were like
that was a cheap shot and did the kiss I
don't know, And the creator was basically like, well it
was in Japan, nobody needed any additional confirmation. But again,
(40:00):
you're you're dealing with a with a disconnected cultures there, um,
I think. But yeah, so there's there's a lot of
real good Uryon Nice. Uh, there's a lot, there's a
lot of good do What about you, Chris, is there
anything that you would recommend for people to like google
or look up if they're like wanting to get into it.
That depends if they want to dip their toes and
(40:20):
if they want to jump in head first. What is
one that's like not sexual that you guys are like this?
You know anyone could read this well. I will say
that because I think that's one of the reasons that
I like the Yuryon Nice stuff is because it hasn't range. Um,
there's a lot of nice slice of life stories in there,
and there's there's a lot of nice hardcore stuff in
(40:42):
there too. Um, I would say, and again and again,
we're getting into that conversation of the it's teenagers, like
how can you how can you talk about teenagers sleeping
with each other? And that goes back to what you
were saying Danny Twilight. Yeah, although I guess he was
like three years you know what gross, But Twilight, like
(41:04):
when I think of sorry, I mean to cut you
off the phone, and I think the dogin that I
was into it was like adjacent to Twilight. It was
that heavy like Vampire, which they do have Vampire do Ginci.
It was like that, like will they won't they crawling
into her bedroom and that's like such a teenage like
we saw that in Scream. We saw that and clear
explains at all. It's like such a teenage trope, but
(41:26):
like that's what we think of teenagers, Like how am
I going to sneak out and get my teenage boyfriend?
And like I think in that context, it's like it's
you know, people are prudes, is what I'm saying. Totally totally.
I was just gonna say, there's a lot there's a
lot of really good my hero Academia do Ginci. That
is I was gonna say, that's just about like the
relationship between the characters. Now, be warned if if you're
(41:49):
freaked out, and I respect it that you're like, but
they're teenagers. I don't want to see any sexy stuff
with teenagers and I get that. I respect that, But again,
it's like it is largely teenagers hooking up with other
people their own age. So but I just be aware,
is what I'm saying. But there's there's a lot of
(42:10):
good not sexy stuff there as well. Um, and just
some really good, good art. And I want to say,
if you're a parent instead of being like my parents
who got sex books from the library and just left
them in my bedroom, um, and didn't talk to me
about them, just like rented them and put them out there.
And it was, you know, two couples like going at
(42:31):
it or like this is what happens when you grow
start growing hair here, Um, you can always give you know,
give give these more. Um why a focused art and
comics to your teen who is you know, exploring or whatever? Um,
(42:51):
so they feel seen and okay and and you know, yeah, yeah,
it's funny that you mentioned hair because in dog she
usually everybody is a smooth of the the baby's but
yeah everyone in waxes yeah. Um. But uh, to answer
your question, Danny, Um, I think I would say if
(43:13):
you know anime, if you have an anime that you like,
and if you know that it's popular, you most likely
will be able to find a very wide range of things.
Like M said, I think, just go to a reputable
um fan work site like my Reading Manga to be
(43:33):
aware of these webs The ads on these websites are
more aggressive than most of the content. That's very true.
I I block those out because I'm just so used
to it. Um. Uh yeah, my reading manga or another
site like that. Careful, you know, uh, don't go to
anything that looks to seed and don't any links the
(43:55):
filtering use the filtering functions, they're very great. They have
filtering functions about what you can search up shown an
eye or b L and not search for smut borne
Um are there any so this is a great question
from Joel Monique, producer. Are there any characters whose work
better in Dogenti than in their original book? Or? Oh? Crap?
(44:20):
I think that's such an interesting question, right, because the
reason why people would make a Dogenti about a work
is because they really resonate with the characters to the
point that where they would want to labor over drawing
them and write an entirely new story, because doing both
drawing and writing the story and all of that is
a lot of work. So yeah, I don't know if
(44:43):
it's so much that like they necessarily work better in
the fan derivative works. However, I will say, you know,
bringing it back to something like for me in my
my early Dogenti reading days with like a Gundam wing
part of the reason that show was so successful is
because there was this really dedicated uh female fan base
(45:08):
around it that we're creating all of this shown and
I and this yahwe content around it, um and and
again and it it wasn't even so much alike, oh
this is better. But you know, listen, the show was animated,
so at the time you would get a lot more
like detail in terms of drawing the characters faces, uh
(45:31):
and such in manga. Um. And so for for me,
like reading some of that DOGENTI I'm like, I'm like, dang,
Like Zex looks pretty good in uh in the show,
but he looks real good here. Yeah. Yeah, I would
say that. I don't know if I've ever seen a
work that I feel like it's better because but I
think there's a sense of building off of something that's
(45:55):
a good foundation, right, because it's kind of like how
not re anime is like Ryan Ice, where it's the
romance is clearly clearly there. There are a lot of
works where an ems that are about subtext and purely
subtext because you know it was made a while ago
or something, and you know it was not safe for
(46:15):
them to create something like that. Yeah, yeah, um or
so so so for me, it's more about like, oh
in these example is um Studio triggers pro Mayer, Right, Like,
there is subtext and something does implied to be there,
and so it's great that there is fan works that
(46:36):
exists to kind of turn that subtext into non subtext
and to make it real. Um, I know that this.
This is pretty cool that many Japanese publishing companies actually
sponsor annual manga competitions in which the winner is awarded
the publication of they're winning, so they're been a story,
so they'll end up publishing it. So are there other
(46:59):
stories that you've heard of Dogenci artists who end up
going on to being manga and animators. Oh yeah, I
mean the most famous example is Clamp Clamp who created
Cardcaper Soccer, um Cho Bitz, Tokyo Babylon like all like
they have a huge, huge body of work. Uh and
they were a do Ginci circle and to this day
they still all work together to publish all of their work. Um.
(47:22):
But I mean they they started they started off as
a Dogini circle. They were writing um Your Royd and
Samurai Troopers. Doin they were writing Devilman dojinci Um. You
can still find it. It's amazing. And then you know
they were so talented that they went on to be
like some of the most successful women uh manga car
(47:42):
that there are, yes, we stand love Car Caper Soccer
and code gas Um. And also it's so funny because
they've they've created such an interesting body of work that
they literally created Spasa Chronicles that literally takes ter from
the existing original ips and puts them together in its
(48:03):
own universe. It's very very funny and very epic. Well,
and I imagine this is like a portfolio for them,
Like it's a portfolio. And then it you know, amass
to having like thousands, sometimes millions of like readers. So
now that the digital now that we have things like
Patreon and other sites like has it because y'all own
(48:25):
physical copies of Digenti that you can order, but like
right right that you could, but like, how do people
now have their own type of It's it's really interesting
because I I have definitely seen that happen more and
more now with people that do have Patreons that they
will sort of publish full comics that are behind the
(48:48):
paywall of their patreon um, which is awesome. Um I
and and obviously you have things now like web tune
and there's just there's so many more ways that people
can distribute their original work and you know, get compensation
(49:11):
for it because of the Internet. Yeah, I I frequent
many a Patreon. That's all I'll say about that. UM, well,
will definitely y'all can shoot me over some of your
favorites and we can include links for everyone. Um this
has been a great intro to do ginshi one oh one,
just talking about you know, how it got started, how
(49:33):
we got started into hit um emma, where can everyone
catch you? You can find me all over the internet
at my name M A five wherever m A five's
are sold. I got a lot. I got a lot
of projects and things that I'm working on, a lot
of stuff that hasn't been announced yet, so I'm not
gonna announce it. So just make sure you're following me
(49:55):
on Twitter, and then also you can find me on
my twitch channel twitch dot tv slash m A five
I Tip Bickley stream Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, uh starting
at noon. Though because of other work stuff that I'm
working on right now, my schedule has been a little wonky. Uh.
So you know social media, it's the place to be
love it. What about you, Chris, Um, you can find
(50:17):
me anywhere at One Winged Chris. It's like one winged Angel,
like Zefroth. Uh. And also please catch me and Emma's
uh podcasting. I was trying to decide whether or I
should be like, wait, Emma, don't we have a podcast
just super super cheat cheese ad. Right? So Emma and
(50:40):
Chris have an entire podcast that's dedicated to jijen chi
and talking about it in their favorites. In each week
they bring on someone. I was on for one to
talk about vegeta and boma, which is my favorite pairing.
Um if he was also yeah, yeah, so and I
remember it was started. I think from a conversation that
(51:01):
we were all happy. Yeah, yeah it was Danny basically
had tweeted something saying like, don't send me porn. I
don't want it unless it's m R Gina Balmadog and
then please send the day. So I jumped in and
I was like, I would also like it. Uh. And
it's hard to It's not hard to find good ones,
but when you find good when you find good ones,
(51:23):
you're they're great and you want to Yeah, for sure. Um,
I am at miss Danny Fernandez on all the things.
Remember that I will be on sci Fi's The Great
Debate this month. I'm in two episodes. I'm not sure
exactly when they drop. I think I'm in this week's
maybe or next week's um, but I'm definitely in the
last episode, which we shot right the day that I
(51:45):
think we had to shelter in place, so there was
no studio audience on that last final episode. Very fascinating
and they also like checked our temperatures at the set
and like we were all set to go, and then
it was like are we going to do this? Um?
So it was all of us just making each other laugh.
It's a really good time and a really good show. So, um,
(52:06):
I don't know, if you see it, screenshot it for
me and tag me um, and we are going to
this week. We'll post some of our favorite do gin
cheese so you can see what we're talking about and
hopefully you can get into it too. And again supporting
independent artists. So yeah, like we always say, stay nerdy,
Hello, welcome to another edition of Notificent. I am one
half of your host Danny Fernandez. Today I'm joined by
two of my dear friends that I've known for years,
for actual years, and I'm really excited for them to
tell you about their podcast because I've been involved in
a way. Um but today we are talking about do
(00:30):
Jin Shei, which if you don't know what it is,
we're going to get into it. And I'm joined by
hosts and writers and my close personal friends Ema five
in Chris Lamb, Hello, Hi, thank you so great to
virtually be here. I know I miss I miss us.
I guess we're kind of like we always see each
other at events, right, like cons and er. It's one
(00:57):
of the weirder things I think is that you know,
even people in in our profession who largely are freelancers,
and you often are working independently at home unless for
whatever reason you know you're lucky enough like oh you're
in a writer's room or you're on set that day
or whatever. There is a lot of sort of independent
work that goes into it. But because a lot of
(01:18):
what we do work wise takes us out to events,
I feel like I'm often so busy that conventions are
when I see all of my friends that I would
normally just see in Los Angeles anyway, but we never
have time for each other in l A. I know,
I Christ, do you feel the same way I do? Um,
that's kind of one of the um things about having
(01:41):
good tastes and friends and aligning yourself with people who
you know who know their stuff is that they are successful,
and oftentimes that means that, UM, it can be hard
to catch up, but you know, it's definitely something that um,
I try to accept, but it's also hard re accepting
it in this different context, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind
(02:03):
of weird because I was really mixed about Comic Con
being canceled because that's so many people like I feel
for the artists, like I feel for the people who
really bank on making a lot of money at that
time and they that's like, uh there, yeah, time to
shine For me as a creator. It was kind of
like it felt like I could catch my breath, like
(02:24):
you know, and it was just like it's an honor
and a privilege to be able to do as much
as we do. However, con season is just kind of
one thing after another after another, and sometimes I believe
in like quality over quantity, I would say, and so
it's just nice getting to me. It was like so
mixed because it was like I have so much anxiety,
(02:45):
especially as an extroverted introvert. I feel like that is
a thing maybe like all of us are where we
like are very um passionate about our craft and really
good at what we do, and we're like on camera,
but when we're off camera, it's kind of like, Okay,
this is my little shell and please don't invade my bubble.
I'm really you know, And so just the whole anxiety,
(03:06):
and I think there's an extra level of it's become
really Hollywood, like it's maybe I've been going since I
was eleven, and it's really Hollywood now, Like they have
shows they promote that aren't even nerdy. It'll just be
like Kenna ken Wait or like you, I mean young Sheldon,
I guess is ners still it'll be Yeah, It's true
like that there is with with San Diego Comic Con,
(03:28):
particularly there there is this very extreme level of marketing
that's going on. And yet because you do still have
your you know, obviously in in recent years they've pulled out,
but until very recently, you would have your big Marvel
Cinematic Universe paneling, you would have your big Marvel Television
panel and your Warner Brothers panel, and so you did
(03:50):
feel like you still really had to be there or
you were going to be missing out on something. I
know exactly how you feel about Danny because I felt
the same way where I was like, it's kind of
a relief in some ways, but on the other hand,
then in my like Instagram memories, a picture came up
of like me and and Xander genre I think, like
(04:11):
out drinking on that Wednesday when everyone's first getting into
town in San Diego, and I was like, I don't know,
it is really fun though, so I just I was
gonna say what I feel about it being Hollywood as
it turns into like, hey, did you get into this party?
Got into this party? And can you get me into
this party? And it's just that's not what it is.
It reminds me exactly what happened to us when we
(04:32):
were kids, like when we were nerds, and now we're
being treated like nerds again because they're not other party
and party right, and it's like, oh, you didn't get
into the e W party? Okay, well, you know, maybe
we'll meet up with you after. It's just like, it's
just like I did not live my life as I'm
not going to get in so let yeah, these popular
(04:55):
Hollywood people make me feel bad. So that's the other side.
I think that a lot of people don't see for
at least for us. And so when it was postponed
or canceled or whatever, I was like, oh my gosh,
the idea that I'm not going to have to deal
with the flaunting who you know, who's at this and
who got on what panel? Who is doing so much?
And like, I mean, I will say that just in
(05:19):
on the sort of opposite end of the San Diego
comic con spectrum, what I have found to be. I mean, obviously,
there are tons of small conventions around the world that
really are more focused on, um, celebrating people coming together
to enjoy something that they love, as opposed to as
you say, be seen at a party. Um. But I
will say that my experience was Star Wars Celebration was
(05:42):
much more like those small conventions, which is like everyone
at Star Wars Celebration was there because they loved Star Wars.
There weren't any cool parties that people were worried about
getting into. Everybody who normally are peers who are in
again at that level at San Diego Comic Con, of
possibly some of them do get invited to the w
party and if you're not one of them, then you're
(06:02):
not doing as well as everybody else. At Stars Celebration,
like everyone was just hanging out with the Merriott bar,
it was so much more low key, um and it really,
it really was. It was so much fun. It was
so so much fun. Um. So yeah, that you know, conventions,
they're they're they're a mixed bag. But you know idea,
I was going to say, it's like apples and oranges
at this yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's my and
(06:26):
I do love Saneo. Comic Con has been like my
you know, home and love and stuff since my family's
from San Diego, so it's been a huge part of
my growing up. It was just watching it change, I
think is why it was kind of just like relieved
to get a break from it, because it is has
turned very like I said, Hollywood, and so it just
(06:47):
is kind of for me. I was like, oh, finally
I don't have to deal with like the Hollywood networking
like media con that it has become, and you know,
can geek out about things with my friends on this podcast.
Speaking of geeking out, UM, as you all know, every
week we talked about something that we're nerding out about,
and Chris, I wanted to ask you first, is there
(07:08):
anything that you're super into right now? I'm so happy
you asked that. So I think for me, I'm really
excited about, you know, miss everything going up in flames
and us in this time of heaval right now, I
have been anticipating the game Ghost of Tsushima. Oh and
(07:31):
can you tell people what it's about? I don't know. Yeah.
So it is a RPG made by Sucker Punch. It
was announced in two thousand seven, two thousand sorry, two
thousand eighteen. I believe UM and they were really inspired
by Kurosawa films basically, UM, the very famous black and
white samurai films. If you're not familiar with them, I
(07:52):
was not until I heard about Sushima. That's how I
get into a lot of things through video games. And UM,
I've been actually watching Karrosawa films and kind of preparation
for the game, and it's been really really educational and UM,
the actor that he has in the two movies that
(08:12):
I watched, Seven Samurai and Yo Jimbo. He is very
very hot. He's dead now, but he's hot. Um. I
think you would really like him, Danny. No. I mean
I feel that way about the guy who plays Satan
in The Holleen Man. He's past, but he'll live on
very hotly in my heart. He just has like he
(08:32):
just has like that level of drip before like drip
was invented, you know, Like that's what I'm talking about,
you know, Like he has like there's like this really
great picture. I should send it to you. Like there's
this great picture where he has like he does that
thing where like he takes his arm and like he
puts it back into his shirt and like he is
(08:52):
like rubbing his five o'clock shadow like through um the
neck hole of his uh yukata kimono. Situation. That was
really hot that you did it, though. It was thank you,
thank you, thank you. Um what about you, Emma, what
are you geeking out about? Oh? Well? I finally came
(09:13):
around to playing Persona five Royal. So I played the
original Persona five, which was released in two thousands sixteen,
or maybe it was early seventeen. Somewhere in that time period,
um uh and I had been wanting to play Royal Edition,
which is just like the expanded remastered version. They've added
a bunch of new characters and new gameplay elements that
(09:35):
actually are really really good. It makes it totally worth
replaying a hundred plus our game. Um but I had
not necessarily been ready to jump into it. So it
came out right before the Final Fantasy seven remake was released.
It came out like end of March, and Final Fantasy
seven Remake came out April ten, So I went, I
don't really want to get into this one. I know
(09:55):
that I'm going to start the Final Fantasy seven remake.
And then when I finished remake, I went, I don't
really have the emotional energy for persone of five yet.
But then all of a sudden, I was struck with
I needed to play this game, and it has been
so so much fun, particularly to play it on my
Twitch stream with an audience. It's just like again, I'm
(10:17):
loving all of the changes that they made to the game.
The new characters are all super interesting. I just met
the school psychologist, who was a new addition to Royal addition,
and like, let me tell you, he keeps offering me
to come to his office to have some snacks. You
a snack onto yourself, Like, ah, this isn't anything new
(10:39):
to the original game. That Danny just to let you
know there are adults that have a crush on the
high school boy. It's very complicated problem. Sorry, okay, I
don't pay attention. No, yeah, but no, no, no, this
this I just don't write me. I do not play
this game. I don't know what you guys were talking about,
but I just heard. No shame. Just know that there
(11:01):
there is um equally as intense things happening in the
original Yes, um yeah, this has not crossed any lines
as of yet. But listen, he's I am an adult woman.
I am into this character, an adult man. Let me
be right, right right, there's there's game play. There's role playing,
(11:25):
a role playing game. So you're right, you're right, You're right. Um.
The thing that I'm geeking out about is actually uh
an artist named Sailor Jubs. She's Julia Mellow. She's a
Brazilian artist, and um, she needed too. She was taking
commissions because she just moved and wanted to pay for
her apartment, and so I bought up a bunch of
(11:47):
commissions and had her do my friends and so she
did amazing artwork, Like some of y'all saw it on
my feed. It was so real. She got Danielle Radford
who's been on our Buffy episode, Joel Monique, who is
our producer who's listening right now. Um, she did Sabina
(12:07):
Graves who was on our Haunted Mansion episode. She did
my friend Kata and Dreusco. Like but just like so
spot on, and I can tell you all, this is
such a great gift. It wasn't even that much like
she was. You know, she had full body or half
body commissions where she would do a portrait of your
friends and it's like such a great surprise, or like
if it's someone's birthday, it was to be in his birthday,
(12:29):
so I sent hers to her. But like, it was
just so spot on, and it helped this independent artist
pay for her apartment, and it also was a great
gift for my friends. So again she goes by at
sailor Jubs it's j U b S. And she is
such a great artist and just really kind. Yeah, I
when you posted those photos I or that artwork. Rather
(12:53):
I scrolling through, I didn't have to like see who
was tagged in which picture. I knew exactly who everybody was.
It was so and it was so great and it
was just like we all have different skin tones, we
all have different hair textures, and like she was just
able to capture everybody's beauty and um, that was just
I just thought she did such a great job. So
(13:15):
props to her. And we're talking about art today. Art.
So for people who don't quite know or haven't heard
the term DUGITSI like, what is that? Well, it is
it is very simply fan created works that are typically
(13:38):
derivative of, uh an existing piece of fiction. So while
in the States, I think we tend to think of
it as only being fan created comics, it also is
a term that applies to like fan art collections or
two published light novels. The key is is that it
is people self publishing. Like I said, it is largely
(14:02):
um work that is derivative of other works, but it's
not necessarily like bottom line has to be in order
to be considered Dogenci, Right, yeah, yeah, So the way
I was going to explain it to people is like,
if you know fan fiction, which is like if you
read say, Harry Potter fan fiction, that's not written by J. K.
(14:23):
Rowling or any of the other authors that have been involved.
It is um by fans, and so this is fan
created art. So it looks like manga, looks like a
comic book. Um, very beautiful drawing some of them. I mean,
you can't really tell between the original manga d I
mean you definitely come across Dogenci creators who are real
(14:46):
good at mimicking the art style of the original. Yeah.
So the only difference between mainstream manga and original Dogenci
Dogenci is that Dogenci is not public by a publishing company,
itself published. Yeah, it's it's kind of the same way
that fan works. And honestly, you know, like let's plays
(15:08):
on video games, right, It's it's all done with the
unspoken agreement between the fan community and the original creator
that like, you know, okay, like you know, I'll I
won't do anything because this is really good for the
community and I want to support other artists, and this
is a great way for artists to get their work
out by using you know, in a pre existing I
(15:28):
p so um. But if they wanted to they could. So,
what was your first the first dogenci that you stumbled upon? Well,
let me see, I I had a I really think
(15:48):
I was aware of doginci in the same way that
a lot of people in the US become aware of doginci.
And and what I do believe is and really be
attitude that a lot of Westerners have towards do ginci
um is that it is all uh, adult in nature,
shall we say? Um? So, I think the first sort
(16:10):
of doginci that I ever came across it was just
I was really into this um this computer game called
Ragnarok Online. Uh, and for whatever reason, there was just
an influx of dojinci um that was, you know, kind
of of the tentacle porn variety, shall we say, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(16:32):
which I which I came across um. But I definitely
also uh, as I got more involved in fandom and
in fan works, Uh, the first ones I can remember
where there was really like a story to be followed,
and they weren't all necessarily like really explicit in nature,
(16:54):
though they were like shown and I stories are like
boys love, which is a big um sub genre with
INJOGINCHI in particular, but it was like Gundam wing Um
because that was airing onto Nami in like early two thousand's,
I want to say. And so at that point we
had also like just gotten high speed internet. Uh, and
I I did what all not all, but many many
(17:16):
young women who get into that particular show or any
any other number of shows where the majority of characters
are the primary characters are young attractive men, you know,
b shownn um. And I started off being like, I
don't really like any of the girls on this show.
I'm gonna write fan fiction um. And I was writing
like Mary sus um, which if you don't know what
(17:39):
a Mary Sue is, it's a It's a very uh
idealized female character, often seen a sort of a self
insert when creating fan works. But then I pivoted completely
into being like, no, I want these boys to kiss
each other um and uh and yeah, so I would
say that there there was definitely some like Hiro Duo,
Gundham wing Ocean she that I And it was the
(18:02):
same thing where it's like I started with like dipping
my even though again I'd already I had gone like
full tentacle porn, and I was like I need to
step back from this. So I was like, oh, this
is like kind of a nice love story and like
they kiss but it's not anything explicit, or maybe they
even just hold hands, but you know that. I then
I pivoted into full on pornography. But yeah, wow, what
(18:23):
about you, Chris. Yeah, so I started. I can remember
it like it was yesterday. Um, it was Naruto and
Sauce easily. And I definitely was kind of in the
similar trajectory of like, Okay, you know this is shown
and I, which is known to be not porn you know,
(18:45):
it's it's very light romance. It's about the romance, not
about the sex, you know. And so I was like, hmmm,
this is a little boring for me. I want something
a little bit more raunchy than this. I want to
see them actually do things. And so I looked further.
I found what I wanted, and I also found a
lot more narrowto ships, because I mean there's so many
(19:05):
characters in there. Obviously it's tread or show really um
awesome as Sen Sa Kakashi and Dha Sen say um.
And then I think that was kind of like my
gateway into ntai proper. And then my gateway into actual
porn with real people. There's this weird trajectory. I I'm
(19:26):
pretty sure I've told Emma this before on the podcast Live,
where I had this weird sense of like, oh, these
aren't real people, and so like I'm better than most
of the people that are actually watching actual porn, Like
that's for the really raunchy and sinful people in this world.
And then I just joined them. That's so funny to
(19:48):
be like I'm observing art. Yes, yes, that I think
that is exactly the attitude that that a lot of
people have is yeah, you're like, these these are drawings,
this is artwork. Somebody like took the time to do this.
I mean they are very beautiful, meticulous art, but also
boobies yep, yep. Um mine was I talked on y'all's podcast,
(20:12):
and mine was Vegeta and Boma from Dragon ball Z.
Because I think when you look for it's the same
reason you reach out and read fan fiction is when
you're looking up do Ginci is because you're looking for more.
You want to like see the things that they're not
showing on the show. Yes, exactly right, exactly right. Yeah,
(20:33):
So you're like, what what is happening when they're not fighting?
What is happening when the TV turns off? And so um.
So that's why I was looking at Vegeta Boma and
they have beautiful, great, also very sexual um strips, you know,
these manga strips of them. So we're actually going to
(20:53):
dive into the history of do Ginci right after this
and we're back. I'm still here with Emma and Chris.
We're trying to not be too spicies, just spicy enough
(21:15):
because y'all are gonna y'all are gonna go and look
at you know, we will tweet some of our favorites
that were allowed to allowed to post, so okay, so
we'll we'll get more into this as we get deeper
into the history of DOI. But one of the reasons
that do has been able to continue to exist without
any pushback from publishers is because it doesn't have mass
(21:38):
market distribution. Yeah, I mean that's true. They can sell
it though, because by so technically they are making money
off of To me, it kind of reminds me though,
like we were just talking about Comic Con, when you
go to artists Ali and the print of Iron Man
and so that artist is able to make you know
(21:59):
their own R in their style, but using an I
Marvel I P. But however they can make money off
of it, correct, Yeah. Yeah. Usually the way that I've
noticed that a lot of people sell it if they
decided to sell it online, you know, like publicly like
easily findable, is they won't name the I P that
it's from or the character. Right then it'll be like,
(22:21):
you know, if they're selling like a Sailor moon fan
at Princess something that reminds me of like in Mexico
there's dragon ball Z toys and it will just be
Power Up Man and it'll be like like it'll just
be like but it'll be Superman's body and Goku's hair.
It was amazing, amazing Golden Power Boy. Okay. So the
(22:47):
history of jo gin Shei. The pioneer among jo ginchi
magazines was actually Morning Bell. It was published in the
early Meiji period since eighteen seventy four. It's not a
literary magazine, but it played a big and spreading the
idea of dogin she So. The first magazine to publish
do gin Shei novels was Library of Odds and Ends.
(23:09):
It was founded in eighteen eighty five by writers Ozaki
Koyo and Yamada Bimo. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was
all the way back then. Yeah. I also, I also
love the name Library of Odds and Ends. I think
that's such a cute name. I know, it sounds like
it could be like a cute Netflix show that they
like Visit Different. Yeah, it's it is. It's really interesting
(23:32):
to see people that are pioneering in the field of
like self publishing or publishing fan derivative works. It's amazing
to think, like, oh man, because I mean you think
about it, I'll bet that back in the day, in
the in the days of like the Greeks and Greek mythology,
there were people out there that were that were writing
(23:53):
fan fiction about the gods. I mean, that's basically what
it was. It was all just like word of mouth
stories being like, yo, if you heard this story about Zeus, no,
tell me more, you know, right, I mean, like he
owns the rights to that, No, yeah, exactly exactly. So
fast forward to Comic cat which is the world's largest
comic convention. Is that still true to this day? Yeah,
(24:15):
Oh definitely, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it's certainly in terms
of the distribution of dojin Chi. Comic Cat is like
the event. Oh I would I would say that Comic
Cat is actually so well known that is actually featured
in like Slice of Life anime world, you know, like
(24:36):
especially right when when you have anime that's about like
manga cow or people that really love drawing, or people
that are into Yawi, which yes, there are animals that
are now about people that like Yawi. Yeah. Can you
tell people that Yeaowe is for people that don't know
yea and I would I would love to Danny think
so much. Um Yawe is basically manga that is implied
(25:01):
to be smutty that's usually between two men and with
very large hands. Funny, how funny? Um okay So. Comic Head,
which is the world's largest comic convention We've fast forward
uh century, is held twice a year in Tokyo, Japan,
(25:22):
and the first one was held in December with only
thirty two participating circles and an estimated six hundred attendees. However,
about eight of them were female, which I find so fascinating,
like scrapping, Yeah, because women were having a hard time
getting published. Imagine that, uh So, I think that is
(25:45):
why there is a lot of participation from women. And also,
as Chris and I've talked about pretty extensively even on
this episode of the podcast. Up to this point, there
is this big market for yahwee and shown and I stuff, um,
which wouldn't necessarily be published by publishers because you're dealing
with a taboo subject of homosexuality. Um. Even though a
(26:09):
lot of the time the shown and I and yahwe
stuff is a little problematic because it's really women projecting
their sexual fantasies into a scenario wherein there are no women.
It's gotten a lot better in more recent years. Um.
But yeah, I mean because because of that, it was
it was allowing women to put work out there to
(26:29):
be purchased by other women. Yeah. And that's the thing is,
I don't know if you like so much of um DOGENTI.
At least the ones that I am into is very romantic.
It's very like heavy. You can feel that even the men.
We talked about this on my episode of the show,
they are kind of drama in a feminine way. There's
so much really female gayzey boma and do a boma
(26:53):
and vegeta DOGENI. It's kind of amazing, especially when you
consider the fact that that dragon Ball on a base
level is marketed towards men, towards boards specifically. Um. But
the fact that you know, you do have all of
these women fans, I think that's another reason why you
do see so many um, dog Chi Car Doginci creators,
(27:13):
uh and Dogenci circles. So so like creators kind of
all come together when it comes to do Ginci, and
unlike in manga where typically it's the same person who's
drawing and writing the story, with Dogencia, a lot of
the time you will find like, oh, so and so
did the art, but some other person did the story
or somebody did the backgrounds, and like they're ultimately kind
(27:33):
of giving more credit than like a single manga car
who certainly has assistance. Um. But I think, yeah, it's
like you're also dealing with all of these women that
enjoy uh media that is more targeted towards men, but
they're getting something out of it, and so, as you say, Danny,
like they want to write those stories of what we're
(27:55):
not seeing when they're not fighting. You know, Yeah, it's
kind of the sense of removing the male gaze and
just really making work that appeals to that sensibility, right,
because you know, obviously probably men were still uh inserting
themselves into everything back then. So which isn't to say
(28:15):
that there's not a lot of really weird you know,
objectifying of women that happens in do jin chi and
stuff that's really male gazey. Oh, that is very much
out there as well, absolutely, um, and I think, oh sorry, Um,
I just wanted to also mention, like I wanted to
kind of emphasize how secretive this whole especially, Yeah, we
(28:40):
had to be back then, right, because it even came
in the term which we discussed in our podcast of
the term fujoshi, which is referring to the women that
enjoy Yawi and shann and I, and basically, roughly translated,
it means rotten women like rotten, like like fermented rotten,
you know, like ye smelly smelly. Yeah. So so okay,
(29:04):
so women who enjoy gay art essentially as run. But
is that term also for the men or is it
just the women that are So it's it's a really interesting, uh,
this situation because you know, we've talked a lot about
shoon and I in about Yahwi, which is created almost
(29:25):
exclusively by women and for women. There's another completely separate
subset of like gay porn effectively in the dogon Chi market,
which is bata, which is like fours that is actually
created like four gay men. It's very it's very interesting. Okay,
(29:46):
So I wasn't aware that Yeahwi was mainly for what
it's for women and it's almost exclusively created by women.
I did not, I know, isn't that fascinating? Well, Chris,
I mean, I hope this is okay because we're such
close friends. But like, was that I mean when you
said that you were watching Yeah, like are looking at
yahwe like when you were maybe before you came out
(30:08):
or whatever. Like I guess I'm trying to say, like
is it since it's just for women, but it seems
like a lot of gay men are consuming it and
finding Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, obviously, I definitely
think we're in a point right now where a lot
of men have been inspired by yeawe that was originally
started by women, and now there are plenty of gay
artists that I do follow that um also participate in
(30:30):
this Yahwe seen. But um, yeah, definitely, I think it
would be more apt to kind of talk about. I
think M also has plenty of examples to about just
like kind of the maybe the aspects of problematic nous
that we've seen, because I think they're pretty common. Like
the most common that I've seen is like two guys
(30:50):
and then this guy who's like, you know, a ladies man.
He's like, oh, you know, I usually don't go for guys,
but it's a common trope in porn. Yeah. Yeah. Another
thing that comes up a lot I feel like is
again it's even though it is two men, they're still
very clearly defined roles as far as like who the
(31:14):
more feminine one is the more submissive one, in which
one is the like dude in this relationship. And as
I say, like, this is something that has gotten better
over time. Um, but you know, especially if you look
at some some early examples, it's like, okay, well, all right,
this is about two men, but really it's about women
(31:36):
being okay with enjoying sex. Like truly, that's what I
think of, you know, and you prefaced this before we
got you know, at the top of this times. But digen,
she is not just sexual, No, it's not at all,
Like there are their entire threads and volumes that don't
have sex. It's just when you're this is often a
lot of kids that are into anime. It's kind of
(31:58):
like what we're all saying, like this is our the
break between this and like actual people are watching ports
like when we're exploring I think I found it in
middle school, and so you're kind of just like, who
are these characters that I trust? Right? It feels like
a safe space because this is like your your animated
show that you're into, but it has some adult themes
most anime does, um, and so now you're kind of saying, like, oh,
(32:21):
this is their dating life. Okay, so this is okay,
they've gone on a couple of dates now and they
like each other, and now they're gonna possibly explore sleeping together.
Like it's kind of like y a novel, like totally,
so they're not all yeah, they're not all sexual, and
like I really do want to say that it's a
lot of them is just like regular comic books. Yeah,
(32:42):
and even as you say some of the ones that
are are sexual, it does have that gradual build up
two characters being intimate with one another, and so I
you know, I think as far as do Ginci goes
in some ways, Japan ends almost more respectful of fan
(33:03):
derivative works than the US is because again, as we saw,
this kind of publication has been going on in Japan
since the hundreds, um, which is crazy. Uh, but which
isn't to say that it hasn't been happening in the US.
And certainly, you know, early examples of fan fiction and
(33:25):
things in order to get any sort of distribution prior
to the Internet would appear in things like science fiction
magazines and other little publications like that. Um. But I
think that there's this weird stigma in the US against
fan fiction that is getting better of like that somehow
it does not take skill, it is not art and
(33:47):
yeah in some respects sure, but but Japan really has
this attitude with Ginchy of well, these artists need to
get experience. Uh, they need to get some kind of exposure.
And so you know, big publishing companies are absolutely looking
at what's out there in the dogen C market and going, hey,
this person is really good. We should hire them to
(34:08):
do something. And in addition to again providing you with
an outlet to just create and not have to worry
about creating the world just taking characters that you already
know when you already like all of that is really positive.
And then, as you say, Danny, there is the sexual
aspect of it as well, because again it is not
exclusively adult in nature, but the stuff that is you
(34:29):
as a teen, because I'm I'm the same as you.
I think I read my first Dogen when I was
in middle school or early high school, and you are
then able to kind of like explore your sexuality in
a really safe way, yeah, and talk to the most
of like the places that I would UM frequent had
like chat rooms and stuff that I was I was
(34:51):
in and we would talk about the DOGENTI that we
had read, or the fan fiction that we read. We
would link the fan fiction that we liked, and it's
just you know, I was just thinking about this as
I'm like working on this show right now that is
has middle schoolers as the main um characters, and it's
really fascinating because it's such an necessary you know, they're
(35:12):
not quite a little kids anymore, You're not quite they're
not quite adults, and like it's still a necessary conversation
for both middle school and high school. I think the
hands off approach of like pretending that they're not going
to get you know, exploring or whatever is so not helpful,
and even a lot of times people try to spin
it to be perverse, like, well, you're talking about kids
(35:34):
and sex like no, but also I lost my virginia
when I was a teenager, and it would be great
if I had. You know, a lot of those are
virginities as teenagers, and like it's in most media, most
shows that you watch about high schoolers or college I
mean or college kids. But like most shows that you
watch that have high schoolers or movies that have high schoolers,
they're exploring, and I think that it's instead of hands off,
(35:57):
like you can't watch this, you can't look at this,
you can't whatever, is more like, let me make sure
you have the resources so you know what consent is,
so you know what um you know protection and think
like I'm just so in the opposite direction where I'm
very like and that's what I mean when I say
sex positive, and it's like, you know, I lost my
virginity to another teenager, so it wasn't like you know
(36:20):
those things to and that's okay, And we need to
like normalize having these conversations about like not. I mean,
I had to hide everything from my parents. And I
think I think that's why people when they hear di
Genti or anime. Even when they hear anime, they immediately
think of tentacle, tentacle porn and hent I like um,
(36:40):
and it's just seen as like that's one aspect of it.
It's just kind of exploring these relate what dating is
like when you're in middle school in high school, you
I think my first boyfriend, you know, we only like
mad my made out or whatever. But like I think
my first boyfriend was in middle school, and so it's
like you're starting to develop. And even if my parents
(37:02):
were like, no, don't do it, I'm still going to
do it. And so it's just like allowing kids to
have art and literature that is, treats them like in
a respectable way of what they're dealing with and not
like they're dumb, like you know, idiot said, don't know
what's going on. That's a really good point because I
never really thought about it. But really it was do
(37:26):
Ginci that gave me a sense of representation actually for
the first time in my right sure. Yeah, like like
literally it was fan works. Yeah, and so there needs
to be, like I think, just a level of respect
for this art and think of the people that are
making them. They probably are also dealing with those issues
of sexual identity, totally interpression, oppression, not being able to
(37:49):
come out to their family. So this has definitely been
a safe space. I feel for a lot of us.
We have to take a really quick break, so much
more to talk about. We're gonna talk about a little
bit more of its history and the future. Right after
these messages we are back. I'm still here with Emma
(38:13):
and Chris. So for people that are new to do Genti, like,
what is this word? They keep saying, what are some
like famous anime that have really cool do Genti that
you would be like, Oh, if you're into this, you
should check out this. Okay, Listen, I went full tilt
(38:33):
into do Gentci again as as an adult, again as
a as a teen. I was real good at the Internet.
I was fine at all this do Genti. I was
reading that that gunn Bing stuff, I was reading the
dragon Ball, sailor Moon all of it. What really tilted
me right back into it because actually, ury on Ice nice. Okay,
(38:55):
So some people that don't know that can you explain
it to ury on ice is a gay fake your
skating anime. It's beautiful and it also was kind of
I don't want to say revolutionary, but it was important
from the perspective of it. Really was it amidst all
(39:16):
of the amazing figure skating drama. By the way, I
watched this show like it was real figure skating. I
was like freaking out when people would skate. Um. But
there is this very wholesome gay love story in it
that's not really refuted. It's so interesting because there's a
scene in it where the two main characters kiss, but
like the like URI's just finished skating, and so like
(39:40):
Victor like jumps onto the ice to give him a hug,
and like the angle of his arm is such that
you can't see that the two of them are kissing.
But like, it was mostly Western fans that were like
that was a cheap shot and did the kiss I
don't know, And the creator was basically like, well it
was in Japan, nobody needed any additional confirmation. But again,
(40:00):
you're you're dealing with a with a disconnected cultures there, um,
I think. But yeah, so there's there's a lot of
real good Uryon Nice. Uh, there's a lot, there's a
lot of good do What about you, Chris, is there
anything that you would recommend for people to like google
or look up if they're like wanting to get into it.
That depends if they want to dip their toes and
(40:20):
if they want to jump in head first. What is
one that's like not sexual that you guys are like this?
You know anyone could read this well. I will say
that because I think that's one of the reasons that
I like the Yuryon Nice stuff is because it hasn't range. Um,
there's a lot of nice slice of life stories in there,
and there's there's a lot of nice hardcore stuff in
(40:42):
there too. Um, I would say, and again and again,
we're getting into that conversation of the it's teenagers, like
how can you how can you talk about teenagers sleeping
with each other? And that goes back to what you
were saying Danny Twilight. Yeah, although I guess he was
like three years you know what gross, But Twilight, like
(41:04):
when I think of sorry, I mean to cut you
off the phone, and I think the dogin that I
was into it was like adjacent to Twilight. It was
that heavy like Vampire, which they do have Vampire do Ginci.
It was like that, like will they won't they crawling
into her bedroom and that's like such a teenage like
we saw that in Scream. We saw that and clear
explains at all. It's like such a teenage trope, but
(41:26):
like that's what we think of teenagers, Like how am
I going to sneak out and get my teenage boyfriend?
And like I think in that context, it's like it's
you know, people are prudes, is what I'm saying. Totally totally.
I was just gonna say, there's a lot there's a
lot of really good my hero Academia do Ginci. That
is I was gonna say, that's just about like the
relationship between the characters. Now, be warned if if you're
(41:49):
freaked out, and I respect it that you're like, but
they're teenagers. I don't want to see any sexy stuff
with teenagers and I get that. I respect that, But again,
it's like it is largely teenagers hooking up with other
people their own age. So but I just be aware,
is what I'm saying. But there's there's a lot of
(42:10):
good not sexy stuff there as well. Um, and just
some really good, good art. And I want to say,
if you're a parent instead of being like my parents
who got sex books from the library and just left
them in my bedroom, um, and didn't talk to me
about them, just like rented them and put them out there.
And it was, you know, two couples like going at
(42:31):
it or like this is what happens when you grow
start growing hair here, Um, you can always give you know,
give give these more. Um why a focused art and
comics to your teen who is you know, exploring or whatever? Um,
(42:51):
so they feel seen and okay and and you know, yeah, yeah,
it's funny that you mentioned hair because in dog she
usually everybody is a smooth of the the baby's but
yeah everyone in waxes yeah. Um. But uh, to answer
your question, Danny, Um, I think I would say if
(43:13):
you know anime, if you have an anime that you like,
and if you know that it's popular, you most likely
will be able to find a very wide range of things.
Like M said, I think, just go to a reputable
um fan work site like my Reading Manga to be
(43:33):
aware of these webs The ads on these websites are
more aggressive than most of the content. That's very true.
I I block those out because I'm just so used
to it. Um. Uh yeah, my reading manga or another
site like that. Careful, you know, uh, don't go to
anything that looks to seed and don't any links the
(43:55):
filtering use the filtering functions, they're very great. They have
filtering functions about what you can search up shown an
eye or b L and not search for smut borne
Um are there any so this is a great question
from Joel Monique, producer. Are there any characters whose work
better in Dogenti than in their original book? Or? Oh? Crap?
(44:20):
I think that's such an interesting question, right, because the
reason why people would make a Dogenti about a work
is because they really resonate with the characters to the
point that where they would want to labor over drawing
them and write an entirely new story, because doing both
drawing and writing the story and all of that is
a lot of work. So yeah, I don't know if
(44:43):
it's so much that like they necessarily work better in
the fan derivative works. However, I will say, you know,
bringing it back to something like for me in my
my early Dogenti reading days with like a Gundam wing
part of the reason that show was so successful is
because there was this really dedicated uh female fan base
(45:08):
around it that we're creating all of this shown and
I and this yahwe content around it, um and and
again and it it wasn't even so much alike, oh
this is better. But you know, listen, the show was animated,
so at the time you would get a lot more
like detail in terms of drawing the characters faces, uh
(45:31):
and such in manga. Um. And so for for me,
like reading some of that DOGENTI I'm like, I'm like, dang,
Like Zex looks pretty good in uh in the show,
but he looks real good here. Yeah. Yeah, I would
say that. I don't know if I've ever seen a
work that I feel like it's better because but I
think there's a sense of building off of something that's
(45:55):
a good foundation, right, because it's kind of like how
not re anime is like Ryan Ice, where it's the
romance is clearly clearly there. There are a lot of
works where an ems that are about subtext and purely
subtext because you know it was made a while ago
or something, and you know it was not safe for
(46:15):
them to create something like that. Yeah, yeah, um or
so so so for me, it's more about like, oh
in these example is um Studio triggers pro Mayer, Right, Like,
there is subtext and something does implied to be there,
and so it's great that there is fan works that
(46:36):
exists to kind of turn that subtext into non subtext
and to make it real. Um, I know that this.
This is pretty cool that many Japanese publishing companies actually
sponsor annual manga competitions in which the winner is awarded
the publication of they're winning, so they're been a story,
so they'll end up publishing it. So are there other
(46:59):
stories that you've heard of Dogenci artists who end up
going on to being manga and animators. Oh yeah, I
mean the most famous example is Clamp Clamp who created
Cardcaper Soccer, um Cho Bitz, Tokyo Babylon like all like
they have a huge, huge body of work. Uh and
they were a do Ginci circle and to this day
they still all work together to publish all of their work. Um.
(47:22):
But I mean they they started they started off as
a Dogini circle. They were writing um Your Royd and
Samurai Troopers. Doin they were writing Devilman dojinci Um. You
can still find it. It's amazing. And then you know
they were so talented that they went on to be
like some of the most successful women uh manga car
(47:42):
that there are, yes, we stand love Car Caper Soccer
and code gas Um. And also it's so funny because
they've they've created such an interesting body of work that
they literally created Spasa Chronicles that literally takes ter from
the existing original ips and puts them together in its
(48:03):
own universe. It's very very funny and very epic. Well,
and I imagine this is like a portfolio for them,
Like it's a portfolio. And then it you know, amass
to having like thousands, sometimes millions of like readers. So
now that the digital now that we have things like
Patreon and other sites like has it because y'all own
(48:25):
physical copies of Digenti that you can order, but like
right right that you could, but like, how do people
now have their own type of It's it's really interesting
because I I have definitely seen that happen more and
more now with people that do have Patreons that they
will sort of publish full comics that are behind the
(48:48):
paywall of their patreon um, which is awesome. Um I
and and obviously you have things now like web tune
and there's just there's so many more ways that people
can distribute their original work and you know, get compensation
(49:11):
for it because of the Internet. Yeah, I I frequent
many a Patreon. That's all I'll say about that. UM, well,
will definitely y'all can shoot me over some of your
favorites and we can include links for everyone. Um this
has been a great intro to do ginshi one oh one,
just talking about you know, how it got started, how
(49:33):
we got started into hit um emma, where can everyone
catch you? You can find me all over the internet
at my name M A five wherever m A five's
are sold. I got a lot. I got a lot
of projects and things that I'm working on, a lot
of stuff that hasn't been announced yet, so I'm not
gonna announce it. So just make sure you're following me
(49:55):
on Twitter, and then also you can find me on
my twitch channel twitch dot tv slash m A five
I Tip Bickley stream Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, uh starting
at noon. Though because of other work stuff that I'm
working on right now, my schedule has been a little wonky. Uh.
So you know social media, it's the place to be
love it. What about you, Chris, Um, you can find
(50:17):
me anywhere at One Winged Chris. It's like one winged Angel,
like Zefroth. Uh. And also please catch me and Emma's
uh podcasting. I was trying to decide whether or I
should be like, wait, Emma, don't we have a podcast
just super super cheat cheese ad. Right? So Emma and
(50:40):
Chris have an entire podcast that's dedicated to jijen chi
and talking about it in their favorites. In each week
they bring on someone. I was on for one to
talk about vegeta and boma, which is my favorite pairing.
Um if he was also yeah, yeah, so and I
remember it was started. I think from a conversation that
(51:01):
we were all happy. Yeah, yeah it was Danny basically
had tweeted something saying like, don't send me porn. I
don't want it unless it's m R Gina Balmadog and
then please send the day. So I jumped in and
I was like, I would also like it. Uh. And
it's hard to It's not hard to find good ones,
but when you find good when you find good ones,
(51:23):
you're they're great and you want to Yeah, for sure. Um,
I am at miss Danny Fernandez on all the things.
Remember that I will be on sci Fi's The Great
Debate this month. I'm in two episodes. I'm not sure
exactly when they drop. I think I'm in this week's
maybe or next week's um, but I'm definitely in the
last episode, which we shot right the day that I
(51:45):
think we had to shelter in place, so there was
no studio audience on that last final episode. Very fascinating
and they also like checked our temperatures at the set
and like we were all set to go, and then
it was like are we going to do this? Um?
So it was all of us just making each other laugh.
It's a really good time and a really good show. So, um,
(52:06):
I don't know, if you see it, screenshot it for
me and tag me um, and we are going to
this week. We'll post some of our favorite do gin
cheese so you can see what we're talking about and
hopefully you can get into it too. And again supporting
independent artists. So yeah, like we always say, stay nerdy,
Nerdificent News
Hosts And Creators
Dani Fernandez
Ify Nwadiwe
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