Episode 103: Batman

One again, our daring duo fight for good by staying in their individual caves to talk about one of the greatest to ever wear a cape and cowl. Nerdificent dives into Batman with special return guest, DC All Access' Hector Navarro. Join us, as we take a look at the legacy of Batman in popular culture.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, and welcome to another edition of Nerdificent from Home.
I am one half of your host Danny Fernandez, and
sitting in another part of l A is, oh is
your boy? If you way holding it down? Crispy sounds
smooth because you know your boy got that condenser Mike
Greint set up sounding good? You're like, if you are
you still in the studio. No, we're practicing social distancing

(00:32):
and we are socially distant. And I think we're talking
about the perfect hero today because this hero is very distant.
I don't know if he's just socially distant, he is
emotionally unavailable yea. And to talk with us about that.
He has been on our podcast and many of times
he's been a host at Nerdice and for d C Daily.

(00:54):
It is Hector Nabarrow. Thank you guys so much for
having me. I'm also at home social distance seeing with
my setup. Apologies if it doesn't sound as crispies as
if dogs or Danny's, but I'm trying my best and
I'm so excited to talk about the thing we're about
to talk about. Also, y'all should know, um, I think
I said last time that my friends are like have

(01:15):
been treating veggies like drug deals and being like, yo,
I got you some spinach. Um today Hector dropped off
like a pound of spinach on my front doorstep. You know,
it's been fun, uh seeing all the different ways friends
are helping each other. Like I, uh my buddy Grant
from college humor was saying that, you know, he's running

(01:36):
for exercise, but his shoes, you know, have been hurting
his heel because none of the stores are open to
buy proper running shoes. And I was like, what size
do you wear? And he's like thirteen, And I was like, oh,
I have a thirteen, and lo and behold, I had
like some running shoes I bought because I thought they
looked cool. And the thing about like wearing like sinkers
just to wear them, like shoes that are meant for

(01:57):
things like running don't actually like like they're comfy, but
like they don't make it in the rotation off. So
I was able to hook him up with some running shoes.
Well you know who also wears running shoes. We're talking
about the Cape Crusader, the Dark Knight, Batman, the Man

(02:19):
of the Man made of bats and you know what
to cut you off, Danny, but I wanna, you know,
we obviously there isn't much to geek out about right
now because the world. But I think what would be
fun to say is, what are you binging right now?
You know, inside, I'm curious, because I'm curious. I'm curious

(02:39):
in my head. Danny's just watching more Twilight Zone. Not entirely.
I feel like that'd be a little too bleak for
these times. Almost Uh, yeah, are you looking at something?
Yeah you are, Danny. Are you finding some other means
of escapism? It's not the like, you know, the the

(03:00):
maybe two real firelight, so well, this is this is wild.
But I actually find this. I watched television and small
amounts because I find it really triggering and so um,
because I also work in television and so it's like
you can't get away from it. And I'm still writing
on a on a Netflix show right now. So we
have to meet for hours on end, like in a

(03:21):
Zoom conference call, which is great a lot my coworkers,
but also like it's the not what I want to
do when I get off that call. So um, However,
I will say the thing that I'm geeking out about,
so I like takes I watch like one thing a day,
and I like watch one episode of something or one movie.
And last night I watched Uncorked, which is on Netflix.
Prentice Penny, who's a showrunner for Insecure um row and

(03:45):
directed it. It's amazing. It's about a son whose dad
wants him to take over his barbecue business, but he
wants to be like a want a wine? Uh so
what is it called? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, And so it's
really awesome. And my favorite thing is like they have
not only do they have like a dope soundtrack, but

(04:07):
they also have like French rap French rap music in it,
and Apprentice is just really dope and I like him
a lot. And I love this movie. I actually like truly.
I was thinking about it today, like a day after
I watched it, So it's great. That's great. I bought
the first season because it's not available on DVD. Even
though I love my physical media, I had to resort

(04:29):
to buying digitally the first season of a cartoon show
I loved, Growing Up That Abby my girlfriend has never seen,
so I bought the first season of Jackie Chan Adventures
on Amazon. That was It is so good, dude. It
still holds up, surprisingly well, so that's that's what we've
been kind of binging right now. It's real fun because again,
if you if you've never seen the show, it's so

(04:50):
delightful because at the end of each episode of an
animated Adventure where Jackie Chan is kind of like a
like a pseudo archaeologist, but he's also like a martial
arts but not really. He's just kind of a like
a like a befuddled like you know, he doesn't want
any trouble type of a guy. Um. At the end
of each episode, live action footage cuts to Jackie Chan
like training in his dojo, and there's a little kid

(05:10):
voice over like hey Jackie, and then asks him a
question like do you like dessert, and then at Jackie
chant answering like yes, ice cream, tiermisoo, tiermisoo, And it's
so adorable and it makes us feel real good. Yeah,
that's that's some good stuff. You will you'll be happy
to now since you love physical media that I went
and got. Uh. I actually bought a few anime, but
the main ones that I was super hyped about is

(05:32):
and I had to go on and this is kind
of what led me down the path of getting so
many blu rays now is. I was trying to watch Big,
which was one of my favorite like anime, which is
it was just I'm glad I'm talking about now because
it's literally just MEC Batman. Like you can really looking
at it, you can tell that they were definitely probably
inspired by like Batman, the animated series, and if not,

(05:53):
it's the wildest coincidence because it all it has that
kind of like that kind of gap gets be that
like neo Gatsby esque kind of vibe to it um
and and so I was trying to stream it, it
was nowhere, absolutely nowhere you could not stream it. I
was like, well then it's time. So I was able

(06:15):
to find the twenty the twentieth Anniversary Blu Ray Complete
Series steel book on eBay in pristine condition. Shout out
to that seller. Uh, and it has like an art
book that went with it. And then on top of it,
I got my favorite anime of all time, which you know,
I get, I I get lots of flak because DBZ

(06:37):
is my second favorite, DVC is my second favorite. My
first favorite animal of all time is Gorn log On
and I have the They came out with this super
dope multidisc set and I've just been watching through it
all weekend and it's just as gorgeous, just as beautiful
as as as I remember. I thought, I was like,

(07:00):
maybe this isn't gonna be as tight to me because
it's been a while, but no, it's so good and
it's it's great and it's so funny because like now
that I've kind of been watching a lot of anime
and see why I love DBZ and all these anime
because the through line and a lot of my favorites
is the idea of hope and holding inside of it,
which makes it a good watch for times like now

(07:22):
because it really is like especially like tingin Top and
Goring and log On, where it's like it really is like,
you know, just believing in yourself and making the impossible happen,
and it's yeah, it's solid. I'm about to be I'll
be finished with it by today and then I'm just
gonna watch the two movies with it and just probably
like go through my favorite moments again and then finally

(07:44):
knock out Big Oh if you're such a good ide
Danny's um dnnon in in in and in It, jingle Bells, rules,

(08:06):
Am I right? Friends, Everyone It's Danny Fernandez here with
Nerdyface talking about Batman because you know, we've actually been
doing NERD Deficent for two years their two year anniversary. Yeah,
kind of crazy. We've never talked about Papan yeah. Um,
you know, we try to talk about things like The

(08:28):
Flash or Shazam or like, you know, characters that don't
have decades worth of television and movies. Yeah, I can almost.
I can like see where like why it took us
so long to get to Batman because it's what what's
interesting about NERD Defficent and what I love about it
is how it evolved because I feel like before it

(08:48):
was like more of a like introspect the deep divy
maybe fine, its something that you didn't know type, and
that as we've grown, we've realized that one deep diving
like everyone has that. That's like there's there's a whole website,
there's wicky as all that. What's fun is seeing the
relationship to the characters and kind of like going beat

(09:09):
for beat with people who were passionate about it of
like the you know, how it came to be and
then really waxing poetic on how we feel about these characters.
So I can see why we wouldn't want to deep
dive one of the most visited characters in all of media. Totally. No.

(09:30):
I like that. I like that approach of trying to
uh talk about a personal connection because if you guys
had like you're saying, if he and Danny like almost
avoided talking about this subject up to this point. It
is because there are so many people who know so
much about Batman, and even outside of movies, which there
are millions and millions and millions of movie fans and

(09:52):
pop culture fans, I find that the people who like
these kinds of characters and superhero characters at that surface
level of well, I've seen all the movies or I've
seen the cartoon show, and there's usually a deeper level
than that of like, well, have you read comic books
of these characters. That I found that most people who
love Batman at that surface level, out of all the

(10:12):
people who love superheroes at the surface level, Batman is
the one that gets people to go, well, I'll read
their comic too, I'll pick up a comic book. So
it's like, really, it really is surprising and not surprising sometimes,
but to to run into people and go yeah, I
love the Christopher Nolan movies, No, my Batman is Michael
Keaton and then they in that same breath they go yeah.

(10:33):
And I love the Neil Adams run a Batman in
the seventies and oh Man like Death in the Family
in the eighties was awesome. And I love the stuff
that you know that Scott Snyder and Gregor Pula were
doing recently in the common Like they go so deep
with it that it is difficult to like educate people
about this character because I feel like if a person
likes even likes Batman, they have almost already done that

(10:55):
homework on their own, and everybody has a like a
like a like a base knowledge of what this character
and world is. Yeah. Well, here I was wondering if
you wanted to walk people through, because we're going to
get to your intro of him, which I could guess
what it is, but did you want to walk all through?
Um not like you don't have a bunch of it

(11:15):
at your apartment or anything, but did you want to
walk people through his creation and how he got started
nine after the Great Depression? Wait, I don't know, yes, yes,
but but before the onset of World War Two, Superman
appears on the scene and Action Comics number one and
changes the industry as we know it. And from the
creation of Superman and his popularity in comic books, which

(11:40):
I think it's difficult to describe to people how popular
this character was, you know, for modern day people today
to to to try to explain to them, No, he
was just appearing in comic books and was insanely popular. Um.
The company that eventually became known as d C Comics
was like, well, we need another character, and it was
Bob Kane who came up with the name Batman and

(12:02):
even came up with some preliminary sketches that were like
he had a character who had like red boots and
more of a bright, colorful costume. He him collaborating with
artists and writer Bill Finger. Bill Finger was the one
to go, well, why don't we make them darker, but
why don't we put him in gray and black and
blue and try to contrast him with Superman? And I

(12:22):
feel that it's really really interesting to know that there
is a little bit more of the let's let's add
this stuff to the character to make them different from
Superman than I think people. No, Um, that they that
they were really kind of And then and then of
course everything that that Batman did in comic books and
beyond influenced how Superman was written and the stories were

(12:43):
created with Superman. So both of these characters have been
like not tugging and pulling on each other, but like
making each other kind of better. And and and when
you put those two characters together, they have like shaped
each other's ideologies so strongly that people understand Batman better
when Superman is a round and vice versa. So that's
the origin is that, like, Batman is a character who

(13:06):
when he was the first appearing in comic books Detective
Comics number twenty seven, nineteen thirty nine, I want to say, um,
a little bit after Superman appeared in thirty eight, but
before Robin appeared in ninety we'll get to that. He uh,
he was a character who was clearly influenced by all
of the pop culture that was happening up to that point,

(13:26):
things like the Shadow, who was like a pulp comics
character and things like um, uh you know Dracula and uh,
Leonardo da Vinci's designs inspired Bob Kane, and now he
was like, well, this is what the cape should look like?
And those kinds of like you know, like like Mobster,
Dick Tracy, types of disfigured villains and everything, and especially

(13:48):
the comic strip the Phantom, who was another kind of
pulp character, pulpy character with his like blank white eyes,
which is another idea that Bill Finger contributed to the
creation of Batman. All of these things culminated in this character,
who was almost like a picture. It like this, if
you took everything that that uh sort of comic book

(14:09):
writers and artists who were probably nerds back in the day.
These guys it were just cranking out these stories to
make a buck, to try to pay the bills. If
you took everything that they were influenced by and put
it in a meat grinder and out came the other side,
it would probably be Batman because it was just so
clearly influenced by other things. But when it was all
smashed together, it did end up becoming such a unique

(14:32):
and as the decades went on and more people contributed
to the concept like such a unique and strong concept.
And it's so surprising this to know how much of
it came from even those early early comics, just like Superman.
Just like if you go to Marvel and read spider
Man in the early sixties twenty years later, so much
of what Spiderman is today still can be pulled from
those first kind of stories and origins and everything. So

(14:55):
so Batman's a character in comic books, they are teaming
him up with you know, Superman and eventually Robin and
eventually Wonder Woman in the Justice Society. And then you
cut too when superheroes became less and less popular after
the fifties and people were coming back from the war
and McCarthy ism and all these things that were happening
the sixties changed the character with a couple of different ways.

(15:18):
The main thing is, and before the sixties as well,
in the forties, there were still some movie cereals that
featured Batman, so he was like a film character. Well actor,
I wanted to say, why so he was? He was?
You know, I always see them as like Gokun Vegeta,
They're like, you know, of the Mother. But why then
the detective aspect of him, like it's such different than

(15:42):
just the straight Superman peop were here again, It's because
Superman was such a like brain melting lye new idea,
and yet Superman was still drawing upon influences like Edgar
Rice Burrows, you know, a Princess of Mars, the John
Carter of Mars series, where that's a guy who is
from Earth goes to Mars. There's less gravity, so he
can jump around and he has like super strength. It's

(16:04):
just an inverse of that where somebody from an even
denser planet than ours, Crypton comes here and it's classic
sci fi Buck Rogers style, Flash Gordon style influences Batman. Again,
it's just a reflection of what was happening at the time.
Sherlock Holmes, you know, they're like huge sellers, these characters
who we kind of take for granted today and think

(16:25):
that they that they unless something like a Benedict Cumberbach
Batch Sherlock comes along and everybody gets excited about these
characters again, But these characters have been around for like
over a century, were like hot stuff back then and
ended up influencing the kinds of stories that they wanted
to tell with this character. And I think again a
lot of that initial collaboration between Bob Kane and Bill Finger,

(16:48):
and there's been some controversy with like how much credit
does Bill Finger get with because for decades it was
Batman created by Bob Kane. Batman created by Bob Kane,
and Bob Cane was almost like a Stan Lee. He
was such a good salesman and such a good pitch
guy in hype Man that he sold himself as almost
like the sole creator of Batman. People have yeah, people
have gone back and they're like, actually, no, dude, you're

(17:09):
the one who came to him with an idea of
like he should have red boots like super and Bill
Finger with the one that was going, how about we
do this? How about we do that? And Bill Finger
did so much of the art as well. Uh and
that's the writing. So yeah, yeah, sorry to cut you
off saying. Qote that we had was Bill saying why
not make him look more like a bat put a
hood on because before you just had like a Robin mask,

(17:29):
a Domino mask. And then he was like take the
eyeballs out and just put slits for the eyes to
make him look more mysterious. And that's like probably the
staples of a Batman, like he just like that is
the blueprint. Every everything beyond that, you know is cool,
but it's it's looking like a bat white eyes. Everyone
goes like That's the biggest thing people were freaking out

(17:50):
about was when the potential for this new movie to
have just wide eyed Batman. We also did the cow
the most famous how um, so this is a finger
also devised the name Bruce Wayne. Yeah, so you said
this is a quote. Bruce Wayne's first name came from
Robert Bruce, the Scottish, the Scottish patriot. Wayne, being a playboy,

(18:13):
was a man of gentry. I searched for a name
that would suggest colonialism. I tried to Adam Hancock. Then
I thought of mad Anthony Wayne. He later said his
suggestion was influenced by leaf Folks Popular the Phantom, a
syndicated newspaper comic strip character with which Kane was also familiar. Yeah.
That doesn't surprise me either, because, in the same way

(18:34):
that Superman Clark, Kent is supposed to be the ideals
of America in the sense of like, he's a good
person raised by good people with good morals and and
and good uh lessons, and he is an immigrant. It's
an immigrant story. Batman is another part of the American
dream that is essentially a false American dream, but it's

(18:55):
still one that like people in the United States have
bought into since the beginning of the United States, which is,
if you work hard, you can become a billionaire, you
can become a self made man. And that is not true.
Um and Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is this great fantasy
of like being a responsible and cool billionaire. I and uh,

(19:17):
and so that is just as much of a part
of his appeal, I think, and like his popularity is
that people, whether knowingly or not, they subconsciously see that
and they go it's just like it's escapism. It's just
like James Bond, sure, but especially the fact that he
is a superhero character, and superheroes are an American unique creation.
Our popular culture was the one to create these these

(19:39):
modern superhero characters and put them in cities, and you know,
and then the rest of the world did their own
takes and and they're all valid. But to have a
story where it's like, here's a guy who who has
billions of dollars loses his parents. So only with an
with a tragedy will he decided to actually do something
about social ills. Only after it happens to him. Otherwise

(19:59):
he would not have cared because he's a billionaire and
his life was set and afterwards he goes around the
world and trains and becomes someone who has a physically
perfect body. He was already a genius to begin with,
because you know, most billionaires are, and their families, you know,
have given them genes of like his father was a
doctor and his mother was brilliant, and so he's a
super genius. Then he goes around the world and becomes

(20:20):
the world's greatest detective, studying with people like at one
point even Sherlock Holmes himself has been sort of written
into the story and he's gone to Scotland Yard and
he studied, you know, how to do C. S I
type technology and everything. And then on top of that,
he's one of the world's greatest mechanics and he builds
a super souped up unique car and then his own
plane and all this other stuff. So for decades and

(20:40):
decades and decades, Batman has been a character who is
fun to imagine this type of person with wealth, you know,
giving back to the world in the city he grows
up in because he loves the city and he's trying
to make better. And I found that really only in
the past, I would say twenty years have there been
stories that have attempted to be like, well, let's talk
about him being a billionaire for a second. Let's talk

(21:01):
about how else he uses his money instead of just gadgets.
Here he is giving to orphanages. Here, he is, you know,
trying to build the city in different ways. And why
doesn't he share more of his money? Why does he
feel so um focused and driven that he believes he's
the only man capable of doing this mission he's doing.
He does not even have superpowers. And I feel like

(21:23):
sometimes those stories are strong, They're stronger for that exploration,
the fact that it goes inward to Bruce Wayne and
go he's honestly flawed, and that he is so arrogant,
for better or worse, that he thinks he's the only
man who can do this stuff, which explains why he,
you know, he is personality wise, the way that he is,
where he's so shut off from people and and at

(21:43):
the same time he is also kind of full of
crap because he has this extended family Robin and back
Girl and Batwoman and Alfred and another Robin and another
Robin and all these different characters, and it becomes just
as important to the whole Batman World. But anyway, but
that's kind of talking about his inception, the fact that
he is billionaire, and I feel like it's just again
it's another great contrast between him and Superman. Right, Superman

(22:05):
is an immigrant who comes from He's the assault of
the Earth. You know. Uh, he comes from nothing and
only wants enough to be able to have an apartment
in Metropolis and you know, maybe someday get married to
the lowest. But like, he cares about helping people selflessly,
and Batman helps people selfishly because he you know, he
always has the plan and he always But again to

(22:26):
Batman's credit, to this character and the story idea from
the beginning is well, the police is corrupt in Gotham City,
and that's a really uh poignant and interesting, you know
story as to how eventually Batman came to deal with
them with like authority and with police and everything. So
so going back to sort of the history, He's a

(22:47):
character in comic books for decades and decades, and then
in the sixties he gets that big TV show, Adam West.
That's sixties and nineteen sixty six is when that show premiers,
and a lot of hardcore Batman comic book fans it
would see the show was kids or the the show
when it was coming out at first didn't like it
because it was very camp and this is a character
who who was born in a much darker and more

(23:10):
serious tone. And eventually the comic books sort of reflected
a lighter tone and the show picked up on that,
and then after the show came out, the comics continued
to sort of do that to reflect what the very
popular TV show was doing. And so Batman has had
these little mini revolutions in his comic book world where
it's almost like a pushback to what's happening on. A
writer and artist will come along ago, we're going back

(23:32):
to basics. He's darker, he's doing detective work. It's not
about hey ho chum and and you know, Jimminy Jilliper
has to be like that because it seems like those
are aside from Adam West, who seems like one of
the only people that can pull that off, right, it
seems like it's not possible to do Batman like campy

(23:54):
or lighthearted like now with like like, So if the
next Batman movie came out, do you think that they
could do that and not have it be as dark.
Um I will I will say this. I think you
need to have There's two components, right. There is the
character himself Batman Bruce Wayne, and then there's the world
that he operates in. And I think one of the
two needs to be serious and the other one can

(24:17):
be more lighthearted or heroic or um cheesy or corny
or childish as long as the other one is still.
And let me try to explain that if on the
one instance you have a cheesy, corny Batman, to my mind,
the world should be a little bit darker than Superman's world.
And for me, a cheesy, corny Batman is somebody who

(24:38):
he's kind of like Iffy. He's this big, buff dude
who you think is just a total badass. He could
probably take on a guerrilla strength to strength. But the
important thing is is that Batman has a heart of goal,
like he's a he's almost a liar, and that he
lies to the people around him and he lies to himself,
almost like the first few seasons of the show Dexter,
where he was a serial killer who's like, I can't

(24:58):
have a family, I kind of emotional attachments, and then
he has that and you're like, what are you thinking, dude?
You you have the stuff that you say you're not
capable of because you think you're a monster when you're not.
To me, those are some of the most inspirational, beautiful
stories of Batman where he can come through and he decides,
I'm not gonna succumb to the depths of this city.
I'm not going to murder somebody. I'm not going to

(25:20):
is exactly my personal revenge or vengeance. I'm not going
to I'm going to continue to believe that people are good.
And those stories I think work really well. But that
means that, yeah, the world can be a little bit darker.
In the world has to be a little bit dark.
That's to me, to my in my opinion, I think
that's why a lot of the Ben Affleck Batman story
stuff didn't work for me. Even though Ben Affleck looked

(25:41):
so much the part, and he he's an incredible actor,
and I think he was very well cast in the role.
That story had a world where it was already dark
and cynical, and then this Batman himself is dark and cynical,
and I know that the whole purpose of that story
is like, well, once Superman died he becomes inspired to
and I feel like that's fine. I think it works
on paper. It just didn't. It just didn't work for

(26:03):
me in that movie, and it kind of made the
follow up, which was Justice League the movie a little
bit sort of uneven with a bunch of other problems.
But to go back to the other example, if there's
a world that is really corny and cheesy, like the
nineteen sixties Adam West world, if there is a Batman
who is a bit more serious but he still operates
in that superhero world, I think it works beautifully. And

(26:25):
the example is the cartoon show Batman, The Brave and
the Bold. That cartoon show came out after many, many
years of Kevin Conroy's Batman, so I think a lot
of bat fans didn't really take to it immediately. They
were like, what is this new thing. Actor Diedrich Bader
from the Drew Carey Show and a bunch of other stuff.
He voiced Batman, and he had a voice like this
and it was very cheesy and over the top, but

(26:47):
he as a character was very like serious and driven
in heroic and the world around him was like every
episode he would team up with another DC superhero character,
and the DC world is very colorful, it's very hopeful
and optimistic. So an episode he's teaming up with Aquaman.
An Aquaman was voiced by John DiMaggio, and he played
him like outrageous, like this adventurer come ho ho ho chum.

(27:09):
And so it became this like like odd couple of
like these heroes showing up and being very cheesy and
Batman going, this is why I work alone. And that
was fun and that worked. So so I think that
if you move too far away from the darkness for Batman,
and it's both he himself the character is very light
and the world is light, then it's really just sort

(27:30):
of like a Batman dress up for for kids. And
that's fine to kind of tell them, like, hey, kids,
here's the Penguin, here's the Joker, Here's Batman, here's Robin.
How fun is this? But it's not really like a
real thing, um. And if you go to light and
optimistic with it, I think, you know, you move away
from what makes Batman Batman. But if you again, if
you go too dark with it, then Batman becomes a

(27:52):
character who doesn't work with the rest of his world,
which is the DC universe, and it should be super heroic,
and it s to be lighter and and really, the
DC universe to me is similar to the Marvel universe.
They both are similar in tone. They have differences, clearly,
but they still kind of come from a lot of
the same stuff and so many of the same creatives
have worked in both. So like if you wanted, if

(28:14):
you asked Hector, what do you think of when in
terms of tone, when you think about like the DC Universe,
I think, honestly, it's it's if I would explain it
to regular folks who don't read comics, it is similar
to like the m C U. There's a bunch of
different characters, there's a bunch of different genres kind of
in tone, but ultimately you know what you're getting. It's
superheroes being superheroes. So Batman still needs to sort of

(28:35):
fit in that world. And if he goes too dark
and too serious or too realistic and you move away
from that, then there's something lost for the character. As well.
With Christopher Nolan, when he did his movies, he was
completely separated from the rest of the d C universe.
They were not concerned with that at all. But I
think It's still worked because Christopher Nolan and the storytellers
made it a point to be like, Batman does not

(28:55):
murder people, he doesn't kill this. He still has a code.
He still has you know, a very kind of an
unrealistic superhero e. You know, these these kinds of codes
real only work in comic book stories because they're supposed
to you know, be for us or not. It's not
a real it's not a documentary. You know, if Batman
were real and criminals were actually afraid of him, he
would have to be a murderer. He would have to

(29:16):
be somebody who you know, he would have to be
somebody who like who like seriously harmed people and like
and just so it's like so that Batman should never
be treated as like, well, what if he were real,
because he's not that escaped, right. I've definitely gotten people
angry on Twitter by by suggesting that, as you've seen
sometimes on a troll And I'll just be like, I

(29:38):
think I've compared him to the not like compared with
the Punisher, but I was like his body count. Um,
people like when you bring up the fact, I'm like,
if he punches a guy off a building, that person
is dead, like I guess not in cartoon land, but
like when he leaves someone face down in a puddle,
that person is dead. You know. Nobody likes to hear that,

(30:01):
which is fine. I get it. And I just was like,
I don't understand why you guys can't come to terms
with this. And I love Batman, you know, I grew
up like you on Batman, the animated series, and I'm like,
why is it so bad? And then people explain it
just that way Hector. They were like, it's so important
that he doesn't kill like and they were like, why
why does it have to be like the real world?
We are saying this is a fantasy world and purposely

(30:25):
like it, why are you making us make it real?
And I was like, okay, I get it now, like
the real world, our world, our news is like so
messed up constantly, and like you're saying, if he were real,
he would murder a bunch of people, And so I
get what you're saying is there's no reason he's a fake.
He's a fictional character, like, just just live in the fantasy. Yeah. Well, uh,

(30:46):
I think speaking of fantasy, we touched on the animated
series and I want a pivot to talk about it.
But let's talk about it right after these messages and
we're back. What's up, y'all. Welcome back to Near Difficent.

(31:08):
Got Danny Fernandez, Hector Navarro, and we're talking about the Batman.
We were just talking about, you know, the different eras
of the Batman's right into the movies, and uh, you know,
I just had some knowledge dropped on me that I
didn't know that the Batman was wearing some Jordans. I
think these are sevens, uh for the boots. Actually you

(31:32):
look more like, yeah, those are sixes. He had the
sixes on. Uh for those Yeah, because they're the like
puffy part of the six is a little flattered that
I'm losing my mind looking at this picture, But I
feel like they were pretty popular whenever it um came out.
Yeah you're wearing them, um, Hector, do you want to

(31:53):
walk people through the Tim Burton Michael Keaton, by the way,
is my Batman. I'm the one that I remember the
most at being a kid, aside from Batman Animated series
was George Clooney. Um, just because he was so hot
in that moment. He was like so big and so
was um. The rest of the cast like Arnold and stuff.
Everybody was like such a big deal. But and I

(32:16):
had those little burger keen glasses. Was that for the
other one? Was that for the Val Kilmer one or
did they do both? Maybe both? Maybe? Anyways, Um, the
George Clooney one was like huge for me when I
was little, also had a crush on him. But I
believe the first one that I saw was Michael Keaton. Yeah,
of course. Well again to to to kind of do

(32:36):
the big picture like zoom out here. The sixties show
had gave everybody on the planet uh an idea of
what Batman could be, a potential Batman, and for years
most people on Earth believed Batman to be that. And
it was really those sort of hardcore comic book readers

(32:57):
and comic book creators themselves, like the Neil Adams and
and Danny O'Neil that would come on and start writing
the darker and more interesting, more realistic versions of the character.
And that led to in the eighties a bunch of
different things happening. So in eight Superman the movie came
out and really sort of changed the game and was
the first modern superhero film, and I almost think of

(33:18):
it as like the Silver Age of superhero movies, because
if the Golden Age is everything that came before, all
of the different movie cereals and you know, different TV
shows and little movies here and there, Superman was the
one that brought us an era up to about the
year two thousand. I feel like it's all the same
era of superhero movies, like the seventies, eighties and nineties,
you know that kind of thing, and then two thousand
with X Men and a little bit before Blade, but

(33:40):
X Men and Spiderman changed it to like where we
are today. So Superman the movie came out, and I
learned this when I had a chance to talk to
one of the producers of the first Batman movie, Um,
which was I asked him, did the movie Superman make
it easier or harder for you to get your movie made?
And he said harder because everyone expected Superhero to follow

(34:01):
that mold of the Christopher Reeve really hopeful, really sweet,
you know, heroic, classic character again kind of mirroring the comics,
mirroring the comics as to what you know, people may
have thought so in the eighties. Throughout the late seventies
and eighties, Michael Us Land and other people were trying
to make this Batman movie happen, but they were trying

(34:21):
to bring it back to that old school, darker, uh
more gothic version of the character. And in the eighties
some comic book creators felt the same, and you came
out with a couple of like one two hits. You
had things like Batman the Killing Joke, which really kind
of you know, mess people's brains with like how dark
it potentially was. It was Alan Moore writing that Brian
Bolland was an artist. Then you had like, uh, Dick

(34:44):
Grayson becoming Nightwing and transferring from Robin and they brought
in this new character, and then they killed off the
character because nobody liked Jason Todd. A lot of the
creators didn't like him, and apparently a lot of the
fans didn't like him because he was written to be
a really like chip on his shoulder type of character
and it didn't quite click with readers. So they did
this famous stunt where they in the back pages of

(35:06):
one of the comics had a not nine hundred number
that fans could call to decide whether this character is
going to live or die. After he was like about
to be killed by the Joker or he was caught
in an explosion or whatever, and only by like sixty
votes out of like like nine votes or something did
the character get voted to die. So then the new
the news media picked up on that and they're like, wait,

(35:26):
DC Comics is killing Robin because people didn't know. It
wasn't the original Robin Dick Grace and that character was
still alive, and now he was a night Wing and
now he was on the team Titans. This was a
new character, but it's still get garnered enough of like
media attention that the sales were huge, you know, the
comic book publishers, which don't normally get this kind of attention,
we're like, whoa this is? This is great and it

(35:47):
led to good stories where after this Robin Jason Todd died,
Bruce Wayne, the character was really affected heavily and it
sort of changed his stories. And then on top of that,
genius comic book classic creator Frank Miller, who was a
writer and artist on this piece that he did, was
about to turn thirty years old back in the eighties,
if you could believe it, he was only a twenty

(36:08):
nine year old young man turning thirty, and in his mind,
the character of Batman had always only been allowed to
be twenty nine years old, right, d C Comics they
they've never up to this point, it's kind of unofficially,
they never really wanted Batman to be too old. They
wanted to be in the comics. In the comics, I
mean Adams Batman. But but even the age of Batman

(36:32):
has always been an interesting thing for fans to sort
of debate and try to figure out because the comic
book publisher, d C Comics and various you know, companies
that have Batman, they don't want him to appear too old.
But at the same time, he's supposed to have these
years of history and experience underneath his belt. And Robin
is supposed to be kind of like a son figure
but maybe like a younger brother, because it's like, well,

(36:53):
we don't want Robin to be too too young. Maybe
he maybe if if Batman's like twenty nine, Robin can
be like seventeen, you know. So it's even trying to
figure out the ages is always kind of fun and
and and and can lead to some interesting stuff. So
when Frank Miller was really sitting down and thinking about this,
and he goes, I don't want to be older than Batman.
Batman has been older than me my whole life. You know.
It's just like when we're kids and we would look

(37:14):
up to the Ninja Turtles and then at one point
we got older than the Ninja Turtles, and now it's weird.
They were also not teenage. Those were like like thirty
two year old hurt. So Frank Miller was thinking the
same thing. He was like, I want to do the
story of like the last Batman story, or a story
where he's like a sixty year old guy. So he

(37:36):
he wrote and drew The Dark Night Returns after he
had been retired for years in the in the future,
you know, in a far future, UM this alternate version
of Batman story and he comes back and he's got
white hair, and he comes back and he's just big,
burly dude, and and so much of that influenced a
lot of what UM ended up becoming a staple and
like necessary in the world of Batman. And so these

(37:59):
kinds of comics, right, you've got Batman things like Batman
You're one, kind of which Frank Miller did a little
bit before and after The Dark Knight returns um where
when all of DC Comics was kind of revamping their line,
They're like, well, let's do a new, more serious origin
for Batman. So they so Frank Miller again, he wrote
and a different artist drew Batman Year One, which was

(38:21):
a huge inspiration for Batman Begins. In fact, that first
script Batman Begins, I think was originally titled Batman Year one.
I think so. But back still back in the eighties,
Batman Year one, Dark Knight Returns, Batman, the Killing Joke,
Death in the Family. These kinds of comics were really
changing the game. So when it came time to potentially
do a Batman film, they helped. They helped influence the creators.

(38:43):
They helped influence people like Tim Burton, and he was
brought on as this young up and coming director, and
and Michael Uselin for years had wanted to get Jack
Nicholson as the Joker ever since he saw One Fell
Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And they did it. And I mean,
you can look up the sort of making of the
first Batman film and it's really really special and really cool.
And I know, Danny, you and I watched it maybe

(39:04):
last year. Did for my movie podcast, and it's like
so much of it still holds up, but so much
of it is so interesting because I feel like we've
moved even so much further in terms of what we
expect from like a superhero movie. It still felt like
it was early years, like they're figuring stuff out, you know.
Not only that, but like the portrayal of women, Yes,

(39:25):
it's not great. We couldn't do this anymore. Yeah, just
like very much of course the damsel in distress, the
like playboy bunny type of you know. But I will
say to give credit to Michael Keaton, I did believe
that he was flirtatious and could be in a relationship.
Like That's another great thing that Michael Keaton brought to
the role. Is it his Bruce Wayne is not? Oh yeah,

(39:45):
it's so I mean, And in fact, I would love
it if a comedian could be Bruce Wayne. Like you know,
there was so much controversy which we've talked about on
this podcast when he was cast because he was Mr
Mom and and uh and a comedian, and I think
that that works super well. Same with all the comedie
like Jack Nicholson being the joker, you know, and Jim Carrey,

(40:09):
who I loved as the Riddler, which I guess not
everyone has, but like, I really like comedy people playing
these roles because, like you said, it's so dark. I
also have this theory, Hector, that there's only one hour
of daylight and Gotham just always nighttime. It's just always
like that's the difference between the first Batman film and

(40:30):
the first you know, the Superman early movie series, those
first four movies with Christopher Reeve. It's like so much
of Superman is in the daytime, and that's the whole,
the whole purpose of that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at
these pictures of him, like these old pictures of him,
and this jawline is not a year old, okay? Um,
Like if he hadssted today, he would have a TikTok.

(40:50):
Like I'm not okay with this. Yeah, world forty I
mean I love a Batman who is or forty five.
Like I love that because that just means you can
have a night Wing who's like thirty two, in a
in a red Hood who's like thirty, and you know
Damian Wayne who's like fifteen, and like like I don't

(41:11):
mind all the years. I don't mind, you know, have characters.
I don't mind a Superman who looks and acts forty
five years old, because I think that the dec universe
is so great that there's so many other legacy characters
Supergirl and bat Woman and bat Girl, multiple back Girls
and all these different characters. Who can who can be
like younger versions of the of the template you know?

(41:33):
Um So anyway, but back to the Tim Burton movie. One,
two movies come out, Batman returns, and with these success
of these movies, Warner Brothers sort of green lights maybe
doing a new animated show. And they so luckily had
a bunch of nerds working on animaniacs at the time,
animaniacs and tiny tunes. Um actually it was tiny tunes.

(41:55):
It was what it was. And some of those folks
went to go do Animaniacs, and some of those folks
went to go do Batman. Then maated series. Bruce Tim
was sort of creating his own pitch for it with
other artists, and and the way I like to sum
up Batman the animated series is if you take the
eighty years of Batman comic book history, because he premiered

(42:15):
in thirty eight, so we're we're coming up on I
don't know. We're now two years past his eightieth anniversary.
If you took all of those years of comics and
smushed it again through another meat grinder, but it is
like a magical meat grinder with a filter that's like
only the good stuff will come out on the other end.
What would come out of the other end would be
Batman the animated series. It is the perfect distillation of

(42:39):
all of the best aspects of the character, of his world,
of a supporting cast, of the villains, and of the
stories and the potential that they could be. And I
feel like outside of comics, and even better than the comics,
it is the best entry level for the character and
it's the best like summary of like, Okay, this is
what Batman is um because there's been so many, so

(43:00):
many comics that are great, but there's also years and
years people You've gotta remember, they come up with a
new comic book of Batman every single month, multiple in fact,
he has multiple series Batman Detective Comics, so on and
so forth. So to to meet that demand. It's like,
some of the stories are not going to be bangers,
they're not going to be iconic, they're not going to
be long lasting, But a lot of them are because
so many great writers have contributed to the character and

(43:23):
because his character and his his creation were so strong, um,
so much of of what's added to the character and
doesn't like break him, It just kind of adds to
him and and so he's become stronger for that still.
But Batman the animated series is like the greatest of
all time. Yeah, I mean also just like gorgeous, like
just completely beautiful. Have you seen any or Blue Ray

(43:45):
or whatever like Green Master did a couple of years ago.
It looks great, it looks so good. No, you can
let me borrow because I know you own it. I will,
I can, and I will um okay. So so then
we're hopping into like kind of all the nineties films,
and I personally, I've always gone to bat for these
just because I feel as goofy as they are, as
much as people have a lot of debate about them,

(44:06):
because you know, when when Nolan came along, it was like, oh,
this is a Batman movie, this is how Batman should feel,
this is who's done Batman right. But like the goofy ones,
you know, Batman and Robin Batman forever, for me, those
felt like the comic book like they're colorful, you know,
we have um poison ivy, like I said, like just

(44:29):
very outland. And also they scound like comic book characters.
If you've read comics, they are corny as hell, and
that's how they sounded in these movies to me. And
so I really actually enjoyed these a lot, and I
wouldn't weigh them against the note, Like, I just think
there's so different ways to do a comic book movie,

(44:50):
and this is one of those ways. I agree. Yeah,
it's interesting you brought up that comparison to because, like
I love so many things about the Christopher Nolan movies,
and I love things about the old Batman films of
the eighties and nineties as well. But like a lot
of the times, you run into dudes who love the
Nolan movies and they go, oh, that's Batman, and I go, yeah,
But there's also things about those movies that almost feel

(45:12):
embarrassed by the comics that they purposefully avoid as opposed
to trying to embrace them, you know what I mean. So,
so if you love the comics, if you're a comic
book lover, I feel like you can love any version
of Batman and any movie. But there is a side
of like, well, do you feel like Christopher Nolan was
almost insulting us a little bit because it's like he
avoided trying to even do Robin the Boy Wonder, you know,

(45:35):
And it's a shame because I think Christopher Nolan is
so talented as a director and as a storyteller that
it's like, if anybody were to try to tackle that
and make it cool, it could have been him. But
instead he goes, no, that's dumb. I'm never gonna do it. No,
I'm never gonna do Mr Freeze. No, I'm never gonna
do you know, Clay Face. No, I'm never gonna do
Poison Ivy. Those ideas are dumb. They don't work in
my world. And that's valid and that's cool. But again,

(45:57):
I'm a comic book lover and I want to see
the stuff as well, so so you know, I think
that to to be a Batman fan and to go
that's the number one top of the mountain, nothing will
be better. I feel like, well, you're you're still kind
of missing out on what those kinds of stories and
characters and stuff can give you. Um, you know what

(46:17):
I can say on Instagram. I follow so many artists
highly recommend, like Instagram better, but um, a lot of
times they'll do an art challenge where it's like draw
this in your own style, and they'll take a character
or something and then they'll draw in their art style.
And that's what I literally feel like all these films are.
It's like, let's just do Batman, but do it in

(46:38):
your style or do it in this style, or like, yeah,
that's exactly right. And I feel kind of, uh, I
feel like kind of a jerk sometimes too, because because
I think that that is accurate Danny. And in that sense,
I'm almost mad because I feel like there's never been
a true Batman from the comics film in live action yet,

(46:59):
you know what I mean, because it has been so
director driven. It's been so like, no, do do whatever
you want to, put your own stamp on it, put
your own stank on it, whatever you want however you
want to, versus like I love these movies very much
as well for different reasons. Are like the m CU movies.
When I watched Aunt Man, I'm not thinking man Peyton
Reid just wanted to do whatever he wanted to do
with them. No I'm like, no, this is aunt Man,

(47:21):
this is this is the character from the comic books,
or this is Captain America. And they didn't like try
to get him to fit in a you know, a
square hole or whatever. They were just like, let's just
do everything that we can from the from the comic
books and for better again or for worse, because a
lot of the m c U movies, you can watch
them and you go, Okay, who directed that? I forgot

(47:41):
because you don't sometimes feel the artist or the storyteller
that's been able to tell the story with those characters,
because it is so like, no, we gotta stick to
what our story is gonna be. We're building up to Fanos.
This is the plan, this is what has to happen
in this movie. This is the character we're introducing in
this movie. And the m c U movies I think
only really work the best. The best when you have
a director or a writer or both who can play ball,

(48:03):
who can be like, okay, if this is what you
want for thor I'm taiko y t t and this
is my idea for what I want to talk about.
You know, Okay, cool, We're the Russou brothers and we'll
play ball and we're gonna do some like awesome action
movies full of all your favorite character Like that's when
I think it really really works the best. Or James
Gunn being able to put so much heart into Guardians
of the Galaxy that like it's better than any Guardians

(48:24):
comics I've ever read, you know, because of all that heart.
So so. On the one hand, I love the Tim
Burton and Joe Schumacher Batman stuff. It's fun. I love
the the Christopher Nolan movies. It's intense and serious and cool. Um.
And I love things about the new DC films, especially
like Birds of Prey and I really like Shazam, you know,
and like Wonder Woman. But there's still sometimes this feeling

(48:45):
of like, man, what are we gonna get? Like the
proper like just don't don't bring on a director, don't
wait for a director to have their take. Why isn't
there somebody over at Warner Brothers is just like, we
just gotta do this. We gotta do Batman, we gotta
do Superman. We get you know, we're gotta do all
these characters to get this all rolling. Um. But you
know that's that's not there there uh, I guess financial
concern that's not that's that's not something that they're interested in.

(49:08):
And hopefully this upcoming Robert Pattinson Matt Reeves Batman movie
is uh is super cool and I'm sure it's going
to give me a bunch of stuff that I can't
wait to see. Um, while still being like, well, that's
matt Reeves's vision. That's his vision. Again. If I want
something that's like, what's just the pure like distillation of
the character, I really do go to Batman, the animated series, Superman,

(49:30):
Batman Beyond, all the way through Justice League Unlimited. Like
that to me is like that's DC Comics pure, that's
DC Comics pure. So, um, we're going to get into
you kind of touched on the future of Batman, but
we're gonna get into that right after these messages and

(49:52):
we are back. So before we hop into the future
of Batman, we Lego Batman. I think actor you said
as your favorite Batman I probably is my single favorite,
like theatrically released Batman film, um, because I think that
for just like the first Lego movie, for being something
that's so constrained by like having to be a movie

(50:15):
about Lego and having to you know, fit into a
bunch of different categories of like it's a kid's movie,
it's got this has got to be the running length.
This has gotta you know, all the stuff that's gotta hit.
We gotta have some pop songs and all this other
stuff I think it also has. It's such a wonderful
love letter to everything Batman and not just Bruce Wayne Batman.
Like Barbara Gordon by Rosaria Dawson voiced by Rosaria Dawson

(50:36):
is fantastic, um Robin Dick Grayson voiced by Michael Sarah
is like hilarious. But also the relationship between Robin and Batman.
I'm like, that's what I want. Now. This is exaggerated
for sure, but that's what I wanted in a Batman
movie since Chris O'donnald showed up and I didn't get it.
You know, this this great like kind of father son
and it's really weird and warped and funny. And and

(50:58):
the way that Batman has a relationship with the Joker
where he's like, I don't I don't I'd like to
say five a fight around. I don't have one villain.
I'm seeing multiple bad guys right now, Like, and the
Joker's heartbroken about it because he's obsessed with Batman. That's
really what the Joker is. He's obsessed with this guy. Um.
And there's so many great like just like, oh my gosh,
Ray finds as Alfred, Like there's so many just great callbacks,

(51:19):
and it's this great love letter. It's almost like Spider
Verse or Spider Verse is such a great story on
its own, but it's also a great summary of what's
so good about the character of Spiderman, Like across decades,
everything that's good about the concept of Spider Man is
in that movie. Anyone can wear the mask and you
cut the lego Batman, and I feel the same thing
with what is so great about Batman, everything that can

(51:40):
be great about the character. There's little references to it
and nods to it, and and and just the moment
where he like shuns his new allies because he fears
losing another family the way his parents were shot in
front of him when he was a little baby. Lego,
I'm like, that's what Batman is all about. And it's
and I have still wanted to see had in a
live action movie, and I still haven't gotten it. Um

(52:02):
that psychology exploration is great. Hector. What I was gonna
say is, Um, when you started out at the top
of the podcast, you were saying that you really like
the stories of self aware Batman that explore like why
are you this way when you're a billionaire? And I
felt like Lego Batman was really self aware, like it
had to make fun of him a ton aside from
it being a comedy. But like, I think that that's

(52:24):
why it worked in that world. Of course we're going
to be making fun of this billionaire. Yeah, and super
fun and like we said, like it kind of feels
along the same lines of d C as Shazam. Um,
just really playful and so I feel like that. But
could you do that you think in a live action
Well it depends. It's like I think Shazam is a

(52:45):
good example. She'sam is something that kind of makes fun
of itself a little bit, uh, you know, um, while
still trying to live in a world that is in
the same movie franchises like Batman Versus Superman, Down of
Justice and Suicide Squad and and all of these really
serious and arc edgy movies. But Shazam makes fun of
its own concept where you know, uh uh. John Mahnsu

(53:07):
who's the wizard Shazami, is like, say my name Shazam
and the kid laughs, right seriously, Like that's how you
have to kind of treat some of these old school
comic book concepts. And I think that movie gets away
with it because it's from a kid perspective and all
the main sort of characters are children. Um. I don't
know if you could do what is done in Lego
Batman like to that level in live action without it

(53:30):
being really like a speed racer colorful, you know, no
holds barred, sixties psychedelia, explosion of of fun in CG
and green screen and stuff. But I think that if
you chip away all of the surface level stuff for
like the Lego Batman movie, and you try to replicate
a similar story but with similar character relationships, you could

(53:52):
do that in live action. You could do to Grayson
being adopted and this origin of Robin. You could do
Barbara Gordon being like we don't need to the police
department doesn't have to work with Batman, you know, and
then finding her own like vigilante path and how the
joker is it like that all of that stuff is
not forced on these characters. That stuff comes from the
comic book Lord. That stuff comes from those storytellers for

(54:12):
Lego Batman knowing the world and knowing how to kind
of play with it. So yeah, before this episode, we
asked y'all your favorite memories for Batman, and y'all y'all did. Yeah,
y'all did it. Y'all did it. So I'm gonna go
with this one from Kevin Fox here because uh, I
actually yeah, this one and we talked about this not
too long ago, but the Static shot crossover with Batman Beyond,

(54:34):
so that we meet old Head Static, Batman and Selena
making out, and Batman returns Bruce and Diana kissing when
undercover in an alternate universe in Justice League with the
Justice Lord me Batman and Selena Kyle. Bruce Wayne and
Selena Kyle. It's like that it's them forever. Yeah. Yeah.
The Diana getting in there, well yeah, it was that

(54:57):
that always. I mean we talked about this before, but
that always just felt like such a weak one to me,
because it's like it's like the strength is within, you know,
Bruce soups and and and uh Diana being like friends,
you know, and like working together, like adding a love
triangle just seems like you're just doing it because that's

(55:20):
that's that's what you do when there's two guys in
a in a lady. But really I feel like they're
both all all of those people are honor students who
would totally be like, we've all, you know, sent a
colleague or something. Oh, what's good And they're like, well,
I don't sleep with anyone or paid anyone in my
same scene. And I was like, you know, that's a good,

(55:41):
hard and fast rule. But also, dang uh, I was
gonna say, Selena actually matches like they're both a dark
and like willing to kind of get dirty, and not
that that Wonder Woman isn't, but she's so virtuous and
like to be honest above him. Yeah, so she Yeah.
I think that I think the only time that the

(56:01):
Wonder Woman Batman dynamic works romantically as is as well
in the Justice League cartoon, they never really fully embraced it.
It was always sort of flirted with. It was flirtation. Um,
but I think that if you were to explore it's,
like the only way it works is if you try
really really hard to make sure to let us know
Wonder Woman is out of his league, wonder Woman is
too good for him, and that Bruce Wayne becomes Wonder

(56:24):
Woman's boyfriend, not that Wonder Woman becomes Batman's girlfriend, because
that's the tricky thing when you pair those those singular
characters together, or even when in the comic books Superman
and wonder Woman dated, it's like, well, does that diminish
anything from wonder Woman? If you become Superman's girlfriend, doesn't
take anything away from Superman. And I know the same
sort of nerd combo was happening with Hulk and Black
Widow in the m c U movies, and people are like,

(56:48):
it sucks that Black Widow has to become like the
Hulk's girlfriend. And it was actor Mark Ruffalo who said
his own opinion, and he's like, I've always felt like
it was Bruce Bruce Banner becoming Black Widow's boyfriend, Like
he you know, he's the one that sort of um
knows that he is not good enough for her, um
and uh, And that's how the dynamic is play. Now,
could those movies have hitted harder? Absolutely? Could any cartoon

(57:10):
show about Batman and Wonder Woman, you know, do a
better job, Sure, for sure, But I think that you're right, Danny.
I think that in in the O T P conversation,
Batman and Catwoman are the ones who should be kind
of meant to be together. And that's why I really
I like that little alternate ending, or at least alternate
from the comics for the Dark Knight Rises, where Christian

(57:30):
Bale ends up with Anna Hathaway, like they get to
they get to be together and kind of retire. And
because normally Batman does not get that happy ending, you know, normally,
at least in my brain and heart, Batman Bruce Wayne
ends up alone, an old man ninety years old. And
then that's where Terry McGinnis Batman Beyond comes into the picture.
And that's how that story is sort of yeah, the
whole thing with that story, right, He's just a lonely boy,

(57:53):
absolulutely That's that would be like his uh, that's like
his law again name lonely boy, one lonely boy. Yea
um okay. So I have this next tweet. It's from
Alex Kane. It says Snyder's um zero year storyline. I
got to experience one of the all time great Batman stories,

(58:15):
as it was happening month by month print issues from
my favorite comic shop, which is no longer there. Um
Capulo's art was never better. Those colors were the stuff
of dreams. Do you remember those? I recently read that
for the first time and I'm actually in the middle
of it because it was kind of like a two
part story. Zero Year is this new take on the origin,
that is it was happening in comics a couple of

(58:37):
years ago now, and it takes everything across Batman lore,
even from like the sixty show and you know, the
comics and the movies and different things, and tried to
put it in this new, cool, updated, sleek origin for
Bruce Wayne and it was dope. Man, it was super
super cool. So that's really special that that that that
listener has has that memory of that comic, because Yeah,

(58:59):
I just read it for the first time and it's
really good. I need to I need to definitely read that.
But I think while we're on it, uh and running
out of time, Uh, maybe we can talk about you know,
what are what are some what are some Batman reads
that you recommend that you think, uh, people should definitely
check out if they want to learn more about the
doc k not. Well, there's there's a couple, you know,

(59:21):
just like everything, there's like tears, there's tier levels of
what's good and you know, you know, and and some
Batman fans and I don't disagree with this, will say
any Batman comic is good if you like Batman, you're
just happy to spend some time with the guy, and
you know, start anywhere and it's fine. But like, there's
a lot of great comics that are entry level, um,
that have been kind of called maybe his first Batman comic,

(59:42):
which is still fine, things like Batman Hush, Batman Year one,
The Dark Knight Returns, of course, but The Dark Knight
Returns I think works even better when you've spent a
little bit of time with like regular Batman and then
you get the one where it's like, oh, he's old
and grizzled and has to come back and it's so cool. Um,
what else I really like? Honestly, Zero Year, the one
we just talked about, was very good. To highly recommend

(01:00:04):
parts one and two for Zero Year, And in fact,
some imagery from that were like Batman's on a motorcycle, um,
and he's got cool little you know, gloves and gauntlets,
and stuff like some people were saying, that's that could
be in the new movie. If this new movie, this
Robert Pattinson movie, is going to be a younger Batman
or early in his career, maybe a year or two
into him being Batman, it could pull from a bunch

(01:00:25):
of different inspirations, of course, a bunch of different sources.
And and zero year could be a good one for sure. Oh,
I like that. I have another tweet I wanted to
read from a former guest, Tony Sanchez. She was on
our Our America Chavas episode. She said, when I learned
that Batman sixty six Joker was a Spanish Cuban actor

(01:00:47):
named Caesar Romero, blew my mind. Yep, he didn't want
to shave his mustache. That guy, which is great, the strength,
the strimp, the power. Um. Yeah. So so we promised
that we would talk a tiny bit before we head
out about the future. So what do we know about
this Robert Pattinson movie. Well, we we know that Matt

(01:01:12):
Reeves has written and directed it. We know that I
think originally it was supposed to take place in the
same continuity as the Ben Affleck Batman, and Affleck was
going to play him, and then people were like, oh, well,
if he's not gonna do it anymore, if Ben Affleck
has moved away from because Affleck was going to be
directing it originally, um and uh and and he even

(01:01:33):
had a script that he wrote and and I think
it was even recently in one of Ben Affleck's like
interviews that he did with Variety or one of the
big you know, uh, like entertainment news sites or whatever,
where one of his friends was like, hey, man, it's
a great script, but if you do this, it will
kill you, because the last couple of ones were brutal
on you, dude, you gotta take care of yourself. Was
kind of the reason why he walked away from the role. Um. So,

(01:01:56):
I don't know how much of that sort of stayed
with Matt Reeves in his new version of the movie.
But what we know is this, it's Robert Pattinson. He's
a young man, a younger version of the character is
not old and grizzled. I don't know if it's going
to be set in the past or if it's set
present day. We know that Paul Dano is playing Edward Enigma,

(01:02:16):
not revealed as the Riddler, so he might not be
the Riddler, but just like the proto version of the Riddler,
which again he that character. Proto version of the Riddler
shows up in that comic Zero Year. We know that
Zoe Kravitz is playing Selina Kyle. Will she dress up
as catwoman? Who knows? We know that uh Andy Serkis
is playing Alfred Pennyworth, which is really exciting, which is

(01:02:37):
really cool. Jeffrey Wright, who is awesome and y'all shall
followed him on Twitter. He's righteously angry all the time.
Jeffrey Wright is playing uh Jim Gordon. And so that
right there tells you this is not the same continuity
as the as the previous DC movies because in the
movie Justice League, j K. Simmons showed up as Jim Gordon. Um,

(01:02:57):
he showed up as as the Gordon that was working
with that Ben Affleck Batman. So this is not the
same universe. It's a completely new thing. And Michael is
doing the score. And we got a little teaser that
with that little like test footage of the costume that
they revealed it was all red and Robert Pattinson's big
eyes opened and we're like, WHOA, So that's basically all
we know about the movie. And they've also postponed or

(01:03:19):
posit their production obviously because of coronavirus, and uh don't
know when they'll pick it up again, so maybe the
release date will be pushed. Who knows? Wow, is Oneer
Woman being pushed? Yes, that's that's going to come out
in August now some you know, I'm saying some stuff
got pushed, pushed like mulan, who even knows when that's
coming out? And Fast and Furious five nine f nine

(01:03:40):
a year yeah, yeah, and James Bond, Well, Hector, thank
you for joining us, Thank you so much for having
me much. I hope I did any kind of justice
to barely barely barely scratching the surface of the iceberg
that is Batman. I think we've got just a tip
of it. Um. But it's always a pleasure to get
to out with you guys. And and uh, hopefully I

(01:04:02):
didn't make too many people. Man, that's impossible. You'll see
if he you're wrong, you will see Hector. Where can
everyone find you? You can find me. I'm at home
every single day now the rest of my life, and
I'm on Twitter at Hector is funny and I'm on
Instagram there as well, and uh, you should check out
d C Daily, where I actually get paid to talk

(01:04:25):
about d C stuff with a bunch of cool peeps
over on on DC Universe. And we have just recently
set up and have I've been going forward with doing
DC Daily from our homes, so we're gonna have a
bunch of new episodes and in fact, our first sort
of test on this, we just talked about the movie
Batman Forever. So that's gonna be coming out on on
Monday as of this recording, two days from now, so

(01:04:46):
it might already be out by the time you hear this,
but you get to go to DC Universe and see
us from our homes talk about the movie Batman Forever.
And that was a blast because Batman's great. It's me
your boy if he if he if you why the
way on Twitter and Instagram, Uh, if he's on Twitch,
which you can still see me, and uh, you know,

(01:05:08):
and of course we have this week we have super Punch,
so be tuning into that. We're keeping that going luckily
from home, and you know, uh, wash your hands now.
I'm at miss Danny Fernandez on all the things. Um,
I'm really glad that we got this set up. And
again we're still playing around tinkering around with our recording,
but thank you to everyone for being patient. We really

(01:05:30):
appreciate it. Um as always, you can at Nottificent and uh,
if you and I and Joel are producer, if you
have something that you're dying for us to cover, you know,
if it's something that you feel a lot of people love,
that would be great. I think sometimes we've gotten hit
up about like super super super super niche things and

(01:05:52):
I'm just like, yeah, um, we'll consider it. Uh, if
you guys, if if you guys ever end up talking
about Jackie Chan Adventure hit your boy up, well, that
actually sounds cool. You know. Some people will talk to
us about like a board game that like was made
just in like the year, and I'm like, I mean
we can explore this lure. I don't know like how

(01:06:15):
accessible it is to everybody, but um yeah um, And
like we always say, stay nerdy,