Episode 40: The Punisher`

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Well, well, well we are back. We are back from
our our holiday hiatus. We're ready to hit you with
another set of clips, so get ready. We're not I forgot.
It's so funny listening back to those because we were babies. No,
it was just like literally earlier this year. It's crazy

(00:31):
that it hasn't been a year. It has not been
here yet, which may be crazy. It's been in your
for culture kings now, but we still got it. I
think baptism by fire whatever it is, just thrown to
the did it we did? Yeah, we're we're here. We're back,
and we're talking about The Punisher. Wait, no, what is
the show? If he said the show, welcome to Nerdificent

(00:53):
I am if you and that other delicious voice that
sounds weird want to say, but I'm gonna stick with
that other delicious voice. You is Danny Fernandez. And uh,
we are talking about The Punisher because The Punisher has
a new has season two dropping on Netflix this weekend.
This is not an ad for them at all, but please,

(01:13):
if you would like to comp our Netflix, it's like
five dollars. Look, you know, I'm down with it because
someone I don't know if you saw that tweet where
someone was like, Hey, I'm getting ready to go see
d v Z Browley and I have never seen a
dragon Ball Z ever. So I got to listen to
the dragon Ball episode and it got me up to speed,
and I'm like, great, but what a way to jump

(01:34):
in from just early dragon Ball dragon Ball Z and
go straight into Browley. You're you're in for a real treat,
and it's gonna be to go back from that if
I think I've told you. But people get mad because
like my friends will be like, where can I where
should I start? I'm like, well you could, you know,
you could do Kai or you could dragon Ball Z
Kai or you could and people like no, they have
to go from the beginning. Goku was a big you know,

(01:56):
it's like with dragon Ball, and like, well, you're not
gonna get people. I mean I think you could. Technically
even just watching you get you caught up. All the
important parts of dragon Ball are recapped in Z. You
can start with Z if you want to, and Z
is pretty much where the thick newest cannon is, where
the adults are, and where vegeta vegeta doesn't exist. Um,

(02:19):
so we we have a guest who as an expert
on The Punisher and on many things. He has a show,
UM Collider Heroes over at Collider, Mr Koy, Jon Drow,
How's hey, how's it going? Gita is where dragon Ball
is hurt? For me, it's over nine thousand as the
beginning of dragon Ball before that is something, but is
really This is why I brought you on here, and

(02:41):
because last year when The Punisher came out on Netflix,
we were messaging each other so much. We have a
love of John Burnthal and UM and that show. Yeah,
we would just send each other memes like I'm so
glad I had somebody else at like one am when
I was watching the show to send it to, because
nobody else in my life cared as much. We always

(03:04):
responded so quickly, like somehow we were both always watching
Punisher at the same time, like it's a full show,
but sometimes always like two in the morning, John burn Tall, Yeah,
I'll respond to this, and I was always ready with
new ones. I think I sent you a picture like
a John burn Thall like Punisher toy in the Christmas
tree or something. And then it turned into Tom Hardy
holding puppies because the poppy transition, because two rugged men

(03:26):
with their dogs. There is an entire Instagram that's just
Tom Hardy holding puppies. I show as many people that
as I can. I think it's really important for the culture.
I think that the comic society needs to know. Let
me tell you that this was my official introduction kind
of to the I mean the Punisher. I think I
had seen the two thousand and four films that when

(03:47):
it came Jane Yes with Thomas Jane, which we'll get into,
but I um, I basically was introduced to him really
in uh In when he showed up in Daredevil on Netflix,
and and it made me like John Burnthal so much
that I went back and watched The Walking Dead, which
I had never seen, just because I liked him. That's

(04:08):
that's start of the opposite of most people. I discovered
Parks and Wreck because I enjoyed nick A from in
the author. Yeah. I seen Parks and I was like,
this guy writes some good books. Who's this? I mean,
what's really funny is I've done because um coy you
and if you have both competed on screen Junkies and stuff,
and I have also competed on screen Junkies and um
one for series that I don't even watch, which I

(04:30):
watched now, but like it's just because it's so in
the zeitguys and I live online that I wasn't watching
Game of Thrones, and I won my Game of Thrones
around against people that actually did just because I know
all the memes and the jokes. And that was the
same with The Walking Dead, where I never really had
to watch it to know what was going on. And
there's an art to arguing about pop culture that a
lot of people don't realize. You need to know how
to shape things, like I thought both of you and

(04:53):
both like you did you both, and we're all still
friends here on purpose. See that's what That's what happens
when you fight good. It's an honor. So I've I
discovered Punisher in the nineties with the Spiderman animated series,
so I was like five or seven, I think I started,

(05:13):
so i'd have been like seven years old, and Punisher
was one of those characters that didn't make sense in
that show at all because you couldn't really shoot guns.
Everything was lasers, so they introduced a Punisher without guns.
So he's always been a fascinating character to me because
he's the epitome of it depends on the writer, and
the character can be the thinnest character on the earth,
or it can be John Burnhall. And what's really impressive
is this generation only knows Punishers, this really well written

(05:34):
character because people discovered him like you, whereas he's a
garbage character about half of his run, like he's a
very poorly written like gun toting. Yeah, there's a reason
that symbol represents a lot of parts of the country
we don't need to represent. So it's a really interesting
character because he can be as nuanced as John Burnhall,
but he can also be a guy who shoots big

(05:56):
and flexies. He was a product of that and like
nineties Marvel, you know where where it's or not even
nineties popular nineties comic book in general, when it's like,
let's go crazy and just like that's the Punisher, everyone
outside of the Netflix era is aware of where it's like,
I'm the guy who's gonna shoot him up, and it's

(06:17):
in big guns and leather and straps and all the
belts and all the pockets on the belts and no hands,
ankle gun, ankle knife, ankle pouch. What's in there? More
guns and then they were. But that's a fun thing,
and it's something I want to kind of even kind
of park on for a hot second, just in comics
where it's funny how it really is the writer. A

(06:39):
writer can really take a comic book or franchise you
really don't care about and really make you super interested,
Like I think Jeff Lobes Red Hulk run is. You know,
I could not have cared about Red Hulk until Jeff
Lobes started writing for it, or you know, or anything.
Bendes has his finger everything. Ben Sachs, I'm like, I'll

(07:00):
at least try it. Yeah, brew baker Is brings things
a flavor to things that it's just always so fun
to check out. So if you read a comic and
you're like, oh, I do not like this character, but
there's a writer who maybe wrote a comic that you
do like, definitely check out that character written by that

(07:21):
comic if that is available, because that might change your opinion.
Like Jerry Dugan, Brian Possana on Deadpool is what I
send everyone too, because Deadpool is often written poorly as well,
and if you can find the right like they're both comedians,
Brian past is literally a stand up, so turning people
onto that voice. Then sometimes you learn to like characters
enough you can forgive other things, and I think Punisher
is a great example of that. The Netflix show is

(07:42):
so good you can forgive other things. Yeah, sure, like
War Journal, but when you've watched it, after watching Punish,
you're like John Burnthal, this comic is awesome. Yeah. So
let's get into who the Punisher is. Francis Oh, I
love that. That's his real name. Francis Frank guess so
Um is a fictional character appearing in American comic books

(08:04):
published by Marvel So. The character was created by Gary
Conway and artist John Room made a senior and Ross Andrew,
with publisher Stan Lee green lighting the name. The Punisher
made his first appearance in The Amazing Spider Man number
one nine cover dated February nineteen seventy four. So that
issue is the iconic cover and it's so expensive. It's

(08:25):
one of the I have fifty nine Spider Man's left,
and I have every run of every title in history,
and this is one of the fifty. Need because I
wanted a good condition. Somebody send it to But it's
it's amazing how this has stood the test of time
because it's one of the most recent issues. I need,
I need, like number one and stuff. But then one
twenty nine is this coveted issue because it's a beautiful
yellow cover. It's him with the crosshairs on Spider Man,

(08:46):
and he was meant to be a one off villain.
He didn't show up again UNTILSS You Won thirty five.
The Punisher's second appearance is one thirty five, which means
that's six months later because back then you'd have to
wait to get the letters back from the fans and
then decided to use the character. Yeah, he was supposed
to be just the flash in the pan. This is
the one note villain, and then the fans loved him.
One thirty five came back and it was then like

(09:07):
two or three years he had his own little mini
So he's been beloved from the beginning because he's so
different from Marvel usually puts out. There's not a lot
of gun toting vigilante anti heroes there are now, but
this was a new thing. But this was also the
time of the mob like coming up, you know, and
he is an Italian American vigilanti. Yeah, so it is

(09:27):
um interesting. I feel like that that like the same
thing that you guys were talking about with the nineties,
because the eighties nineties we had like because he's also
a war veteran, so we had like g I. Joe
was really big back then those toys. And also he
was just kind of starkly different. You know, you had
all these heroes who were like super do get dogs,

(09:48):
and this is a guy who like doesn't mind murdering, kidnapping,
using extortion, coercion, threats of violence, and torture to basically
fight crime. So there's something a whole new flavor. It
was like, oh yeah, that's a cool way to fight crime.
And from a visual standpoint, you throw him again Spider Man,
a red and blue spanbex clad heroes like the most

(10:09):
and then you've got this guy in black and white
with a pseudo mullet and a broken nose, Like he
looks like the opposite of Spiderman every way. And I
think that was a lot of his appeal was this
was an age of leaving the Silver Age going into
Golden Age. I think the Silver Age had just ended
up like Issue two when Gwen Stacy died, that effectively
into the Silver Age of comics. To the point that
comics change size, which is fascinating, Like it was less

(10:30):
than a year earlier that comics had physically changed how
they were made. And so he's coming up into the
Golden age of comics, post silver Age, and it is
the crime era of comic books. You've got like the
gangster books you've got you know, hammer Head was really
important and big. Then you've got the Tombstone. You've got
all these mafia so characters, and then you've got a
guy that takes them out the same way they dish
it out, and that's fascinating for comic books. Yeah, what

(10:52):
I was gonna say is when he said he has
a broken nose, that it's funny they picked John Burnhall
because John Burnhall has said that he's broken his nose
fourteen times. I remember once I was listening to A
used to get in a lot of fights, which was
funny because I watched him. He is an amazing actor.
He actually went to acting school in Russia. He got
accepted and went over there and said it really changed
his life. And it's so fascinating listening to him because

(11:15):
I was like, oh, I would never date you because
when I see him, know when I see him as
an actor, I'm like, oh my gosh, Like I'm in
love with him. Granted he's married and has three kids,
but like, and then when I hear him listening. When
I listened to him and he talked about how many
fights he would get in, how alpha he was like
you know all of that, I'm like, oh, yeah, we
never would have made it. That is not my type.

(11:37):
Just like punch and getting fights all the time over there,
And I'm gonna show him what's you're staring at your
but well, he's gonna be steering him a fist. But
what I find fascinating John Burnthal in particular is he
looks more like Punisher than anyone should. Like his nose
is broken in the same spots, his forehead is the
same ratio, Like he actually looks like John im to

(11:57):
Senor was like, one day, well you know this boy.
You know what's so funny is that he was killed
off on The Walking Dead, which this isn't a spoiler.
This has been out for like what seven years or something,
and he's set and that was kind of like, you know,
that was that was a huge show for him. He
was in it for two seasons and and but then
he later said if he hadn't been killed off, he
wouldn't have been the Punisher, Like he wouldn't have gotten that.

(12:18):
So that is so cool to think of it that
way when sometimes you think like this is oh my gosh,
I just lost my job, you know, on the biggest
show ever, and then it's like, oh no, now you
have your own series and it's one of the biggest
shows ever. So that's really cool. And he wasn't on
my radar. Sorry, he wasn't on my radar for Punisher.
He wasn't like in my fan cast. He wasn't someone
I was like he could play. And then once they
cast and I was like, wait, how did I not

(12:39):
see the guy that looks just like Punisher? And that's
what I was gonna say is he was one of
the very few people that when they cast, everyone was
like yeah. Like usually when someone's cast is like what no,
and it's like you have to get used to it,
and there's like debates and some people like it, some
people don't. But this was the one casting where people
were like, yep, I would say the same for because

(13:00):
we were talking earlier before we started recording about hell
Boy when David Harbor was announced as hell Boy, I
was like, yep, yep, I see that. And both of
those are tall orders because their legacy characters. Ron Hellman
just was the Hellboy three just now didn't exist like
it was due to shoot and be a movie. So
it's not like Ron Perlman had a retirement the end
of hell Boy Too spoiler alert from eight years ago.

(13:20):
She's pregnant. So Ron Perlman was supposed to be Hellboy again.
So for us to accept David Harbor so quickly, and
then with John Bernthal to go from you know your
Dolph Lounger and uh to Ray Wins don't no note
Ray the War like the Alexander did oh yes, um,
and then Tom Jane. We've had so many different Punishers,
so it's really hard for an actor that is, you know,

(13:41):
Walking Dead TV actor to suddenly be accepted so quickly.
But he really was. I totally agree. Yeah, it was
so good. Yeah. The backstory of Punisher is you know,
another one of those uh good old classic uh you
know body someone's whole family tree type things. So you
basically his wife and two kids were killed by the

(14:03):
mob for witnessing a murder in New York City Central
Park and then The Punisher waged though one man war
on the mob and all violent criminals in general because
of this, and he's like, the people who are bad
have to pay. And his family's killers were obviously the
first to be murked by the Punisher, and uh, you know,
he definitely had that Liam Neeson skill set where he's like,

(14:26):
you know, I went to war, so I have a
specific set of skills. You know, he was a he
was a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. He
was a scout sniper, and he you know, he was
skilled in hand to hand combat, guerrilla warfare and marksmanship.
You know, I wanted to say whenever I get asked
on the DC side what I was on a panel,

(14:46):
and they'll ask me who my favorite DC villain is,
and I always say Batman because he is a villain,
because he's a vigilante. And no one ever likes that answer,
but it's true. And um, the Punisher, it's really interesting
because he is also a vigilan. He that's trying to
avenge his family's death. They're not as different as people think. Granted,
the Punisher's run in this comic book series is much

(15:08):
more violent, I would say, than Batman, but they both
have killed in comics, so a hero doesn't look up
the weaknesses of his teammates. Yeah, Batman always is ready
to take out the entire justice. That's not a heroic
smart but it's not heroic. But I'm you're taking the
law into your own hands. That is technically a criminal,
and that is technically a villain, depending on whose viewpoint

(15:29):
you're looking at. So anyways, that's just my point. If
anyone ever asked who your favorite your favorite villain DC
villain is, you can tell them Batman and I agree
with Punsure being a parallel because oftentimes Cap and Punish
her butt heads directly because Cap represents ultimate good and
Punisher represents not ultimately bad, but bad that has a wiggle.
There's a gray area of that that Cap hates because

(15:50):
I think Cap sees himself and Punisher a lot and
like it's what he wants to do, yes, yeah, that
he can't he can not do. Yeah yeah. And then
of course Punish respects Cap because Cap is the ultimate
soldier and he's trying to be a soldier, except he
kills people. So it's a really cool parallel. I really
love the interactions between Punisher and Cap and it's really interesting.
I will probably get into this little later on. But

(16:11):
in Ultimate Comics, which is the basis of the movies
you love, the Ultimate Comics is the blueprint for the
m c U. If you read anything, start with Ultimate Spiderman.
It will change your life, and then ten years later
you'll meet Miles Morales in your life will change again.
You're welcome. But Ultimate Punisher kills Spider Man. Ultimate Punisher
shoots at Cap, Spider Man gets in the way, and
then Spiderman's just fought the Green Goblin. The death of

(16:33):
Peter Parker and the comics is insane. But if you
look at it, the killing blow is Punisher. He's a
bad guy, and people don't talk about that when we're
talk about the Punishy. He killed Spider Man. Yeah, but
you know as much as you're saying that, the police
try to kill Spider Man. So in the police I
don't think would be seen. I mean, we would see
it as audiences if we watched the police officer kill
Spider Man. But like the police don't see they see

(16:54):
another vigilante who is essentially breaking the law. So I
just that's what I find really fascinating about all of
this is that it's told the Punisher to Spider Man
is a villain, but when we see him in his
own comic, and we see him now in the Netflix series,
we're rooting for him to survive. So, like we started
with it, it depends on who's writing it whether or

(17:14):
not they play that nuance well. So, um, Gary Conway
was inspired by The Executioner, which is a popular book
series created by author Don Pendleton, in which a Vietnam
veteran Mack Boland becomes a serial killer of criminals after
the mafia related death of death of his family. So
that is essentially the Punisher's origin story. Uh. Conway described

(17:35):
the inspiration in an interview from nineteen seven, quote, I
was fascinated by the Don Pendleton Executioner character, which was
fairly popular at the time, and I wanted to do
something that was inspired by that, although not to my
mind a copy of it. And while I was doing
the Jackal storyline, the opportunity came for a character who
would be used by the Jackal to make Spider Man's

(17:56):
life miserable, and the Punisher seemed to fit. Yeah. Um,
and then Conway. He also helped design the character's distinctive costume. UH.
In two thousand two, he said, in the seventies, when
I was writing comics at d C and Marvel, I
made a practice to sketch my own ideas for the
costumes of new characters, heroes and villains, which I offered
to the artists as crude suggestions for representing the image

(18:19):
I had in mine. I had done it that would
punish her at Marvel, And it's it's interesting to hear
that because I imagine if I because you know, um,
there's there there seemed to be making a lot of
room for comics to write UH comics, and I've already
spoken to a few people to try and get in
that lane, and I imagine that that's how I would

(18:41):
kind of do for certain things that I'm like, I
want this to look. So it's cool to see that,
like someone's been doing that, and I imagine that you know,
that would have happened, but it's cool to see like
that it is not that frowned upon. Hopefully you know,
who knows what's happening now. Yeah, So then that ran
through the seventies and eighties, and then in nineteen nine five,

(19:04):
Marvel canceled all three ongoing Punisher series due to poor sales.
That was was that that was also just a hard
time in comics, in general comics, So in nineteen nine
five Marvel had to sell their characters. So the reason
that X Men is owned by Fox, the reason we
can't get Silver Surfer, Fantastic four, the reason we don't
know who owns nay More half the time is back

(19:25):
then they were trying to keep their lights on and
no one wanted to buy Iron Man because he was
a C list character at the time. No one wanted
Thor because he was in his wrestling phase. No one
wanted these characters. That's one He's there still Marvel at
the time. So in nineteen there was seventeen variant covers
of per issue. There was Foliage foil covers, there was
all the issues that we've learned our mistakes from. But
ninety five was peak excess. So all the characters were excessive,

(19:48):
all of the runs were excessive. We just lived through
this amazing age of comics where they were selling and
now we thought that if we bought you know, the
death of Superman, who would put our kids through college
and it didn't work out. So I think Punisher was
definitely a loss of the time as well as a
character that was better suited for a different time period.
There's a reason his imagery, like you were talking about,
has lived on. There's a reason that soldiers respect him
and have that on their trucks. There's a reason that

(20:09):
the skull is so iconic to the Punisher. And what's
funny is I think it's actually gone beyond the Punisher,
wh people don't even necessarily identify with it. Like I
see marines with the Punisher iconography, and I don't see
them as comic fans. There's just this this universal appeal
to that skull, and I find that fascinating because it
was a comic book iconography that was changed by a
series of artists that turned into what the Punisher is.

(20:31):
And I think that it would be really interesting to
talk to the people that love the Punisher about his nuance,
whether or not they see them as a gun toting
hero or a villain or a guy that does anything
that to to get what he wants. And it's such
a tricky character that when putting wrong, it's like a gun.
When putting the wrong hands. It can go well or poorly,
and I think he represents a lot more of what
can be than people give him credit for. Yeah, and

(20:52):
that's that's what's so interesting that you mentioned that of
how like soldiers and cops have been doing it, because
that's how they've got burned by because as not knowing
what it is. Because if you see a cop walking
around with a punisher on their car, you're like, no,
please don't. Yeah, and they've they've gotten burned. They I
forgot which I'll look it up real quick, but the

(21:13):
whole police department they had them on. We're going to
get into the bottom, but they had to remove it
from their cards, and it's like, yeah, you should probably
know the whole thing behind it before you start slapping
it on police car. And that's a good argument for
him being a great character, because nuance, I think, is
the most important thing in comic books. That's why Daredevil

(21:34):
is one of the best shows about comic books. It's
because you're rooting for the Kingpen half as much as
rooting for Daredevil. Like when Matt Murdoch has a face
off with Wilson Fisk, you're seeing two men that are
trying to do what they see is right full stop.
Punisher is then introduced in season two, and he's just
trying to do what is right full stop, except he's
got a gun. So when you see these people with
the Punisher emblems on their guns or their trucks or

(21:55):
there Whatever's it's really interesting is is it doesn't necessarily
say what kind of personally are. It just says they
believe strongly in what they believe in. And I think
that's a great conversation to have with people in the military,
and and you know, the people that do who love
the character is why they do. Yeah, I was gonna say, um,
we're going to get into his revival and coming back
in as well as the fan films, the big films

(22:17):
and his Netflix series right after these messages and welcome back,
it's me and it's me Frank Gas. You see, I
was trying that that sounded I was that wasn't Italian.
That was like and I too. Maybe we were talking

(22:45):
about how um Dolph longer played him. Well, yo, you
know he on the side of the Bronx, he was
just an aquaman, right, I think that's yeah, he's just
all I mean, no, but I think it's funny that
he's still in the comic book movies, like decades later,
he's still such a beast, like his face and body

(23:06):
is made for comics. If he dies, he dies, Oh
my gosh, frink. And if he dies, he can't be revived.
But we're talking about the revival. Nobody likes my accents ever,
My my, My old Lady one that I did and
then my, um, what was it Jimmy Stewart, Yeah, and

(23:26):
you like sent a second draft of that to me
and I was like, yes, oh, yes it was. It
was during Christmas, during Christmas. I can't even remember the
name of the movie. Now, what is it? A Wonderful Life.
It's a wonderful life was on and I filmed it,
and I filmed me doing an impression of so proud
of it. You were so proud, Clarence, Clarence, I want

(23:49):
to live? Okay? Oh man? That was that real good
tweet where it's like, imagine a ghost and a more
successful you walk into a room and go, this is
what you would look like if you didn't live, And
he was like, oh no, take me back, and you're like,
what the cancer? He almost got me? See, I am

(24:09):
the one who curses the least. Ever, I never have
to be bleeped and I almost broke it at Yeah,
I don't curse as much as I used to. I
look back at tweets that I did last year and
I was like, oh man, I was before I was
a Disney Darling. Disney changes you. Oh man. So here's
the revival of Punisher. Basically, there was a twelve issue

(24:31):
mini series by Garth Innis, who he's good. He's like
hit or miss for me. I like Garth, but he
definitely is and it's no no surprise he did Punisher
because he's definitely an edge lord e writer. Like all
his strong tastes, all his comics are like very edgy
and like especially when you go into his like image stuff.

(24:52):
Oh what was the one you might know this because
you're a huge The one where the like all the
heroes die in it and it's like about them and
I'm not talking about the Boys. I'm talking about the
boys and more recent this is before the Boys. It
was more silver ag right, like, yeah, it was that
image I forget but uh he that's when I but

(25:13):
I was into it at that was like, look, bloody,
this you're perfect. Yeah, I know what you're talking about,
and I was the perfect age to but yeah he
uh him and Steve Dylan uh did the Punisher that
dropped during April two thousand. In March two thousand, first
under the Marvel Knights imprint, which was a very specific

(25:35):
run of Marvel, so Marvel aside from there, you know,
I know in the Miles episode we explained what six
one six versus Ultimate was, I think mean Max, Uh right, no, no,
this one is under the Marvel um But and then
they did another one under Max. I think we lightly

(25:57):
touched on Max before. But Mark of the Knights was
all the street level heroes and by street level, and
it's exactly what it sounds like, your Luke Cages, your
Daredevil's And they had that Marvel Knights run and it
was kind of away from the main cannon and they
had their own special Marvel Knights cannon. It was really cool.
And then you have your Max imprint, which is just

(26:17):
your R rated comics, which the the Nick fal The
Nick Fury Max run is so good because it's like
a like sexy spy joint. Obviously Wolverine Max runs, even
though some people are like, I didn't need that I
you know, yeah, but yeah, So they had the Marvel

(26:40):
Knights imprint and it revived the character's popularity. And then
after that they had a regular ongoing series UH that
were thirty seven issues from August two thousand and one
to f Everywhary two thousand four, which was primarily by
Innocent Dealing. Is it Enis or Inness? Yeah, that's what
I've been saying, um, but I'm bad with names. And
then after that it was succeeded in two thousand four

(27:03):
by an ongoing in a series under Marvel's Mature Readers
imprint Max UH, which we just discussed, which the Max
stuff is a good read. Some some is like gratuitous,
but like with the right person, you can tell someone's like,
I've been waiting around I wrote this, I be sitting
out for thirty You could tell they're like, I've been

(27:25):
waiting for this, and it'll just knock it out the park. Yeah.
I think Knights and Max are really good places for
people that don't know comics to jump in because it's
so strong. Whether you love it or hate it, it it
definitely has a has a take. And I think that Knights,
especially like Spider Man, Knights is written by Kevin Smith.
And it's a really fun take because it's way edgier
than Spider Man to being a regular run. And that

(27:46):
is a good gateway. It's the gateway drug. It's the
weed of comics to play. It's a good way for
you to because they're shorter runs, they don't run as long.
You don't have to read six hund issues. You can
just read like thirty. So Punisher was a fun character
because he had so many manyas he had so many
different runs, you can kind of pick up wherever you
want and it'll end soon enough. God, I was gonna say.

(28:07):
During that time they changed his the look of the
Punisher was modified, so they removed the white gloves and
pairing his traditional skull imprinted shirt with combat trousers, black
combat boots and a black trench coat. Um Castle has
used this costume on occasion in the mid two thousand
stories before the Punisher War Journal volume two. And we

(28:29):
are moving on to films, we should briefly mention Steve
Steve Dillon, who redefined his image, redefined the look, basically
reshaped who Punisher is had passed away on the last
five So Steve didlon the artist that we find who Punish. Yeah,
let's take a moment to appreciate Mr Steve Dillon. He

(28:49):
actually was drawing a Punisher issue when he passed. So
there's an issue that's half finished that is in print,
like you can pick it up, and an artist that
had a very similar style finished the runs there. I
think it's issue like thirty seven of the of the
second to most recent run. They just restarted Punisher in
two thousand and eighteen. The one that ended in seventeen
was the end of Steven Dillan when he's passed away.

(29:09):
But if you're gonna pick up any comics, check out
Steve Dillon's run that ended in twenties seventeen. But also
the current run, which is the only issue six, is
really good because it plays off of the John burnetal take.
It's a lot more nuance. It looks like him. It
definitely looks like So if you want to read Punisher,
the current issue is issue six, you're only six six behinds.
You're like eighteen dollars in which is which is handibal
he yah um. Yeah, So we had the Punisher. That

(29:33):
was the first time he was on the big screen
starring Dolphin London as we said, he has killed a
hundred and twenty five criminals in the past five years.
This is interesting. He's an ex police officer in this
Um so, yeah, Castle's family was murdered in a mob hit,
in which Castle was thought to also have perished. They
still keep that storyline often of him. I think in

(29:55):
this series. In the Netflix series, they thought he was dead. Yeah.
So he's living in this sewers and waging a one
man war against organized crime. His only friend is an
old alcoholic name Shake. I don't a way that reminds
me of Master Shake from Aquitine Hunger Force, but I
think they need to have that someone an adult Swim
needs to have a regular punisher and then just have

(30:17):
Master Shake with him. Um. I feel like that could
be a series. I'll pitch it to somebody and then
a former stay. Oh so Shake was a former stage
actor who speaks in rhyme for reasons unexplained. Um yeah,
the guys, did you enjoy this film? I did for
what it was and was certainly a piece of the eighties.
I my favorite non superhero franchisees Lethal Weapon. I watched

(30:40):
Lethal Weapon every Christmas. The eighties were really important to me. So,
Thomas Jane did a great job. But to me, Dolph
Lunger and has a different It's not even the Punisher.
It's like the eighties Punisher, you know what I mean.
Like there's a big old caveat. So when you watch it,
you're not going like I'm gonna watch a Punisher movie.
You're like, I'm gonna watch Dolf Lung Punisher. It's fun
with a caveat. Yeah. Uh So, then after that we

(31:02):
had the two thousand and four film The Punisher, starring
Thomas Jane as Frank Castle and John Travolta as Howard Saint,
who was a money launder who orders the death of
Castle's entire family. It has a glowing on Rotten Tomatoes,
but Roger Ebert he gave the film two stars, saying
The Punisher is so grim and cheerless you wonder if

(31:24):
it's uh, if it's hero gets any satisfaction from its accomplishments. Now,
this movie is fantastic. I really people crap on this movie.
I own it. I'm a big fan. I think Thomas
Jane really figured out who the Punisher was. I like
Tom Jane as an actor. Uh. It stars Rebecca Romaine
as a supporting role who's great in this and people
just think of his mystique. No, no, she's great and

(31:44):
Punisher and Ben Foster was one of my favorite actors
in the game. Ben Foster in the last ten years
is getting all this critical appeal. But Ben Foster is
in The Punisher and he plays this crazy like tatted
and pierced meth head and he's like a pre Jesse Pinkman.
It's fantastic, and it's a movie. He's got a great
supporting cast. You identify with the supporting cast in a
way that you don't expect because when you rewatch The Punisher,

(32:06):
you need to have the humanity to make the character work.
That's what Delfh Longheran didn't have because his humanity was
that crazy, rhyming guy. Whereas you've got Rebecca Romaine, you've
got Ben Foster. You believe in what he's fighting for,
and that's what makes the character go from man to
good is there has to be an eyeline, there has
to be a perspective you can see. So I really
like the Tom Jane one because it gave us that
for the first time in my opinion, And then we

(32:26):
had the two thousand eight, The Punisher war Zones everyone
else pretty much says is the good one. Yeah, A
lot of people love it, starring Ray Stevenson as a Punisher.
It's directed by my friend Lexei Alexander, who is awesome
and I feel like she uh, I don't know if
she's a good follow on Twitter if we follow her.
She she speaks up quite a bit and um really

(32:46):
puts people in their place, and I think that she
was the perfect person to do a Punisher film. Also,
you know she's She's also directed a lot of other
comic book TV shows, um, some of the ones that
I think are in the CW so um. Yeah. But
she also does hand to hand combat, which you can
see her tweeting about constantly. She's amazing. Um. So this

(33:06):
film is a reboot that follows the war Raged by
Frank Castle and Crime Interruption again, particularly though with mob
boss known as Jigsaw, who we're finally getting too in
the series now. They touched on the Russian in the
movie with Tom Jane that t thousand and four, and
they kind of made him a Jigsaw asked character because
they messed up his face. So they played with both
Russian and Jigsaw, but in the comics, yeah, they kind

(33:29):
of made him into one. And now what Lexi did
was the Jigsaw was the villain and he looked awesome.
I personally also love Lexi's film. I actually can't decide
between the two because they're so different, Like Dolphs is
different than Tom, Jane's a different than Rays. But Lexi's
fighting style is fascinating because she fights in real life
and her fight choreography reflects that. But then it's also
with a shade of like the Punisher Max line where

(33:50):
the violence is so over the top you're like, yes,
like he punches through a head, like the like her
movies insane and I really like it. And I think
Lexi is the person that should be doing Lobo or
would be doing like this next wave, Like, I think
Lexi's an untapped resource for she's doing something for. I
saw her tweet She's doing something for. She's doing one
of those okay, one of the three that yeah somebody.

(34:13):
I remember she was like, no one wanted this, and
then they took it, and I think it's going to
be like big yeah, Yeah, she is working on something
where she was like now people are hitting me up
and I just love her pettiness. She should. She's an
extremely talented woman who can kick all of our asses collectively.
I think she has been blacklisted at times for speaking

(34:34):
up against abuse of people and um yeah, anyways, sorry,
I didn't mean to distract. I agree with you. I
like her work and I like her Punisher go LEXI yes. Um.
So then we had a we had a very popular
fan film, Dirty Laundry, which was a Punisher fan fan film.
It was ten minutes long. It was starring Thomas Jane,

(34:55):
so he was reprising his role. It came out in
I remember it was produced by Audie Schenkore. Um. He's
done a lot. I know, he's worked on Castlevania, him
and I have worked on and he has a channel
called Bootleg Universe. He makes a really cool fan stuff.
He does a lot of fan films. He did the
Power Rangers one right, yeah, yeah, the popular Power Rangers
fan film. So. Um, this was called Dirty Laundry. It

(35:18):
was Thomas Jane reprising his role uh from the film,
as well as Ron Perlman hell Boy himself. Uh yeah.
So it was ten minutes long. At first screened at
San Diego Comic Con and Frank Castle sits out to
do his laundry. You can go and catch it on YouTube.
I like that money laundrying in the Thomas Jane puntersher
turns into dirty laundry, and I always thought that tongue

(35:38):
in cheek joke was brilliant. And I think the short
is really really cool to see what a fan film
can become with someone like Audie behind it, because the
movies he makes are so fan base, they're really the
thing we want to see. He did a movie this
year that I love called Bodied, which is produced by
eminem so Audie and and Marshall Mother's teamed up to
do a battle hip hop movie that basically has the
story structure of like a dance film that turns into

(36:00):
a battle rap saga that lands with one of the
most powerful lyrical displays I've ever seen on film, and
it was done in the same way his fan films
are that you know, he cares so much about each
and every big nuance that the people that are watching
it love the material. So if you mess up anything,
we're the loudest people on the internet, are comic nerds,
so do it right. And Dirty Laundry really plays to
that so I like his everything he produces as a

(36:21):
tone to it. Yeah, you know what, I just thought of,
what if LEXI did Black Widow and actually made her
like as hand to hand combatty and all the nuance
that she could bring to it and actually bring in
like the crazy Cold War intrigue of that, because she
wouldn't she wouldn't cut corners. Her Twitter representation says the
script she'd make. But if you imagine like an actual
gritty Black Widow, like she's the max line and those things,

(36:42):
that be incredible. So you know, we have a list
of villains from the comics, But why go through a
list when we have a walking encyclopedia with so many
opinions on each villain? So uh so I'm gonna just
go to the may and the myth, the legend coy

(37:03):
who are I'd say, let's go down your top five.
I know I'm putting you on the spot. Punish your
villains and why, and they don't have to be in
a specific order, Okay, extra pressure like like her more
than here. Yeah, Monocchi comes to mine first. She was
a Garthennis creation, if I remember correctly, And what I
love about her is she leads a crime family, but
she does it like an Italian mom in the North End,

(37:26):
so she's never actually boots on the ground. She's orchestrating
like an Italian mom, and she's like cooking like the
whole time. You just have this malice and this fear
of this character, and you don't know if there's blood
in the spaghetti sauce, like there's there's always this uncomfortable
like I don't know. Yeah, so she's great. Uh, And
then to go the other side, Jigsaw. There's a reason
jigsaws all these movies. There's a reason Jigsaw gets used

(37:46):
over and over again. He's the opposite of Monocchi. The
physicality of this character is fascinating because he's what Punisher
is when unhinged. And I love the Iron Man Ironmonger thing.
I love the parallel hero hero, the Spider Man, Venom.
There's a reason we are fascinated with our other side.
Jigsaw is his other side, and I really like when
they play with those. I'm gonna say a a bold

(38:07):
one here and cycle it back to Captain America. I
think Captain America is one of the best Punisher villains
because not only does he represent everything that castle wants
to be, but he also shows in Times and Punisher
comics that Captain America is fallible. There are decisions Cat
makes that are for government, that are four right that
don't end up being right. So when he has to

(38:27):
apologize to Punisher, when he has to forgive Punisher, those
things are really interesting to me, and those comics read, well, yeah,
and you on that one, because that that was the
first time you mentioned if this is all I thought about.
One of my favorite interactions between them is during Civil
War because there is a moment where they have to
team up, and that my favorite thing about the moment

(38:47):
is like everything you just said about them is encapsulated
in that in that that issue is because you know,
they have the moment where he's like, Frank, you were
right and you should be on board, and in an
instant they find out why they could never work together,
and it's so good because it's such it's just so

(39:07):
much of both those characters, and they've been side by
side for issues. All of a sudden, it's like, this
isn't working. What I was gonna say is it's capital
like that whole story is so heartbreaking because that's what
Frank Castle could be if his family hadn't been murdered.
It's not like he wanted to become this person. He
had his family taken from him in a way that
he just he you know. I think they did a

(39:29):
really good job of portraying it in the in the
Netflix series of like it haunts him, like he just
has repeated and it also our friend, uh Jason Edman,
who was also a war vet UM has spoken up
and said, like, this is one of the most honest
portrayals of what it's like to go through PTSD, to
be a veteran, you know, and like having these these

(39:51):
flashbacks and like waking up in terror, and it's like
it's um. Aside from all of that, he comes home
after serving the country, comes home and then his family
is murdered. It's so sad that like he was a hero,
he was the country's hero. He was and then that
was taken from him. It's such a it is so
interesting to see that parallel of him and cat because

(40:12):
that's who he should be. He is a he's a
war hero, but now he's turned into this person that
is perceived as a villain because all he wants to
do is avenge his family. Yeah, that's what's so interesting
about him too, is is just that part because and
I think that's why Punisher has been able to work
as as much as he does is because that is

(40:33):
that defined his personal philosophy, the fact that he lost
not only his wife but his kids. He's like, life
isn't fair, so why played by the rules? Right? And
that's and that's his whole character thesis. And when it's
justified by what happened to him, it's it's kind of
like why kill Monger was such a good because you're like,

(40:55):
you understand where he's coming from exactly, You're just one
about it the wrong way. And I think that's the
same thing for Punisher, And Punisher has the extra wrench
in it that he is fighting on our side. So
as much as you want to be like you're going
about it the wrong way, he's also taking care of
the people we meet, taking care of his own community. Yeah,

(41:16):
And what I like is that Captain America and Jigsaw
couldn't be more different, but they're both villains of the Punisher,
and I like that there's so much it's everyone against Frank.
At the end of the day, you love cap you
love Spider, man, you don't love Jigsaw, but they're all
against Frank. So it's this really interesting take on what
morality even is. And we're giving some of the runs
a lot more credit than they intended to have. But
I'd also say I already did three of my final three,

(41:37):
so I'm not leaving me out. You gotta mention bulls Eye,
the blunt force of Punisher versus the very precision of
Bull's Eye. I love the dichotomy of those two characters
when they fight, because one is a blunt object, the
other one is pure finesse. You see the bulls Eye
and Daredevil a lot more, but the bulls Eye Punisher stuff.
To me, it's a beautiful artistic representation of types of fighting.

(41:57):
I would also say Kingpin because king In and some
star lines has been responsible. Like you're saying money going
to the top Punisher and Kingpin Kingpin might have been
responsible for the death of his family, and they allude
to that a lot, and that's a fascinating commentary. And
even if the Kingpin would know that far down, if
he was responsible, and would he care, So I think
Kingpin's important. And then my last one would be the

(42:18):
Russian because kg Beast in Batman is a great character
because it's Batman fighting someone that is just like him.
He's a dude and he's just not going to be
taken down. To me, the Russian is that with the Punisher,
he's kind of like Ivan Drago. He's kind of like
Rocky versus Ivan Drago. He's the same guy in a
different circumstance. He's from a different world and he's just

(42:39):
fighting for his country what he thinks is right. So
to me, the Russian is kind of the Punisher for
Russia from the perspective of American eyes. So there's a
lot of good villains for for this character. Yeah, it
is fascinating that Kingpin is both Spider Man's you know,
villain and the Punisher so much. Yeah, and Daredevil all
the street level New York guys so much incest to it.
But Spider Man is now been leveled up. Yeah, he

(43:01):
doesn't like anymore. He doesn't. But this man, I know.
But we had him in into the Spider Verse and
their game, Spiderman and the and the series. So Daredevil
thought him, spider Man video Game thought him into the
Spider Verse. Thought I'm Kingpin has gotten beaten up three times.
You know what he deserves it. Yeah, ye, you've you've
been due for I know who you know. I'm ready

(43:25):
for Craven. This is a light side bar. I love
to see how they do Craven. And that's all I
can think about because Craven was such a cool one
and then he had you know, so he was just
I'd love to see his Craven Elba. Can you picture
that lion mane over eat your seld shoulders. I just
love that we both had black Craven in mind, the

(43:48):
majesty of just. I want someone that's regal, you know
what I mean. I want someone that has a presence
without the costumes. When he puts it on, you're like,
oh that works because he wears a lions like that.
We won't play if you don't have someone no, not
not not with Yeah, Pascal, eat yourself with someone with
that like reality. Yeah. Uh, we're going to talk about
the Netflix series, but some of the controversies. Yeah, before

(44:11):
we even get into them, I'm gonna have you listen
and we're back and um coy, you were talking about
how many people don't know how to write the Punisher.
They just throw stuff at him. So punisher basically like

(44:32):
when you run out of ideas because you're so ground level.
Sometimes they're like, we need to punisher back in the title,
and then sometimes you get Frank and Castle. I love
that it's literally a play on his name. Yeah, like,
how amazing. So this guy's named Francis Castiglione and that
turns into Frank Castle because he's a badass, and then
that turns into Frank and Castle, which is the most amazing.

(44:55):
It's it's the epitome of comics that wouldn't translate into
any other medium. Sometimes comics have to be mix and
I love that we have animated movies. I love that
we have live action movies. I love that we have
TV series. But Frank and Castle is why comics can
never die, because it would not work in a single
other medium. But we were just talking like if he
loved the run, it's so much fun and it's so weird.
How can that exist and be good? It doesn't make sense.

(45:16):
It just yeah, And it was one of those things
where you know, like we were saying during the break,
it was supposed to be like this, Like I think
Halloween was when they had like all these like it
was Halloween versions of characters, but people liked Frank and
Castle so much they just kept it running. It was
it was wild, and I was surprised every time I
saw it on the shelves, like this is still going okay.

(45:37):
He's also been war Machine worth noting he's had the
war Machine armor, so he's taken over the Don Cheetle
character in the movies and currently Frank Castle. And this
is the weirdest one of ball is the spirit of
Vengeance with cosmic powers. So Frank Castle plus Silver Surfer
plus ghost Rider, I give you Cosmic ghost Rider. He
lives until the end of time. He's the last guy

(45:57):
with Thanos in the year whatever thousand, well past the
earth exploding. Frank Castle has the power cosmic and his ghostwriter.
Because comics and drugs have a lot more in common
than this. Poor man probably just wants to hang out
with his family in heaven. Like I'm not even kidding.
That's what all of his dreams are about, just like
banging his wife and the Netflix series. Every time he dreams,

(46:17):
it's just like and I don't blame the dude, but
I also know because his family, at least in the series.
In the Netflix series, they were murdered at a carousel,
and they keep showing that carousel even in other I
think they showed it. Was it in Luke It was
like in another series too. Maybe it was also in
Daredevil like this poor man. Also, I wanted to say,

(46:39):
because um, there was a scene I think it was
in Daredevil. Maybe it was. Yeah, it was in Daredevil
where Frank is looking at a Um, this is Daredevil
Netflix series where Frank is looking at a picture of
his family and it's a different family. Do you remember
that it's a different family because they hadn't cast the
family because they probably didn't quite Oh, they were going

(47:00):
to make him have his own entire series. This is
the John birnth All run. And so he's looking at
a different family And I tweeted him like, how many
families has this man lost? No wonder he's so traumatized
families That was before they cast his current family that
shows up in flashbacks on The Punisher. Anyways, John Burnthall

(47:23):
plays The Punisher on Marvel's Netflix series. Also, we have
Ben Barnes playing Billy Russo a k a. Jigsaw who
are going to get in this upcoming series. Um Amber
Rose Reva who is amazing. I believe she plays a
CIA agent. I think she's with the CIA, yeah, or whatever.
Her division of the government would be UM. And so

(47:46):
this is just a little bit of a backstory. So
The Punisher was actually supposed to get a pilot at
Fox in eleven, but that project fell through. He appeared
in June of twenty fifteen in the second series the
second season of Daredevil, and then by January they had

(48:08):
developed the Punisher series to have his own spin off.
What I love about the Punisher series is it reflects
the comics. Accidentally and Spider Man, you accidentally backdoor pilot
a character you didn't think to take off. Daredevil accidentally
backdoor piloted a character into a show you didn't think.
C W does that all the time. But the fact
that it was his origin was that from the comics
turned into a TV show, two separate medium. We have

(48:30):
Punisher being like, I'm too cool, I'm gonna get my
own thing. Both Red Guys and Tights caused a Punisher
show to develop, and it's great. The CW does do that,
and they test out audiences really well, and it's really
intriguing when it works. And The Punisher like you said,
the Different Family. We didn't know how much we'd love
John Burnhal. We knew, like when you got cash, like,
that's great. And as soon as he was up on
that roof in Chaine's tied to that chimney, like, I

(48:51):
knew this was a character I wanted to see more of.
As soon as that Daredevil scene happened, I was straight
from the comics. The dialogue felt greedy, from the comics.
All of that, I knew we needed a whole show,
and I think that Netflix did as well. That's why
he picked it. He's or you know, one of the
reasons why he said yes. He said that long monologue
that you don't actually get to do a lot of
in television. When he read that monologue that, uh, but
that moment between Frank Castle and Daredevil that is up

(49:14):
on that roof, he was like, I want to do this.
They're allowing us to breathe like, they're allowing them to
have longer moments um like real raw moments. And that
was one of the reasons why he, as an actor,
wanted to play him. I totally see that, and you
can see how much Burnthal loves Punisher. I mean, he
puts his teeth into everything he works on. But he said,
like he kind of was reclusive and he was filming
he had to go, you know, kind of shake the

(49:35):
character after the first season wrapped. I think it's really
interesting that John Burnthal what he's turned into, because if
you look at any Taylor Sheridan movie, he like pops
up in all these great roles. He's in Cicario, he's
in you know, wind River, and he's always this force
of nature in these small roles. So I love that
Punisher gives us thirteen hours and he's still a force
of nature the same thing, or he plays this tough

(49:56):
guy like really quickly and then the rest of it.
In the rest of it, Jimi Fox replaces him as
pretty much the same character. Do you watch a baby
Driver with like different glasses on? And I re watched it.
I was like, wait, the differences Jimmy Fox and John
berthell are very small. Yeah, like ten minutes and that's it.
That's so funny. You know, like we talked about, you know,

(50:16):
good things getting into the wrong hands of course, you know,
the Punishers skull Icon became a huge hit with the
Blue Lives Matter movement with many companies produced decals, stickers,
and T shirts featuring the Punisher emblem colored with a
thin blue line a top of American flag, and in

(50:37):
two thousand and seventeen, the Cattlesburg Police Department, with the
one we were talking about earlier in Kentucky, basically got
the backlash for installing those large decals with the Punisher
skull and Blue Lives Matters on the hood of police
cars because you know, well, uh, I don't have to
spell it out for you. Uh and uh, you know

(50:57):
they removed it in response to public pressure. But uh,
but they said citizens and police interpreted its meaning differently.
I don't know how you could have interpreted, especially coupled
with Blue Lives Matter, because I mean, you know, look,
I'm not gonna get all the way into it, but
Blue Lives Matter is basically a movement of let us
do what we have to do to do what we

(51:19):
want what makes us feel safe, and Punisher is a
character who does just that. And it turns out the
same way with both the instances. Uh for a little
bit of dark history. But they said it didn't cross
their mind. I mean, either way, even if you had
nothing to uh like, even if there was no punisher
attached to it. I don't want cops walking around with

(51:42):
skulls on their cars or anything like punisher attached or nothing,
even if it's just not be your goal is to
have dead people. Your goal should be for the person
to be a lot like the verbage. And it's called
the punisher, implying the move is to punish, not to
protect and serve. And then the archaetography of death versus protecting.

(52:04):
It's like, you can't have to protect and serve and
to punish on the same car. Those are two cars. Yeah, yeah,
to protect your have schools. And it's funny because half
the police cars in this country, maybe it's not half,
don't quote me. Many police cars in this country have
to protect and serving quotes, so it's always like to
protect and serve. And I was like, bro, you know

(52:24):
that quotes stand for on the internet, but the punisher
is not in quotes, so it's like maybe there's a there.
I don't see I do. I mean, I feel like
comic book characters are though for people that have served,
like there are very important to them. I know, like
when my one of my friends from high school um
was in Iraq, I would send him comic books, you know.
And Jason Edman again, our our friend who is a veteran,

(52:47):
has a whole comic book drive for veterans. So I
understand to some extent um, I think, like what you
guys are saying in a public manner, having the punisher
is probably not the right person. I have seen the
police officers that have like Superman, I feel like that's perfect,
that least out of the one of the most. Even yeah,

(53:07):
I've seen Captain America. I mean, but to play America
makes sense because it's America. Like, yeah, I could see that.
But I love that the military has a character they
identify with and I and I don't want my earlier
quote to be misrepresented. I love that the military having
a character that they feel they have a representation with
is important that they feel they can read a comic

(53:28):
and never released. I can't imagine what the military goes through.
I've never I've never served, so I can't imagine how
great it is to be like, Okay, I just did
a tour. I have no way to cope. This character
has been through what I've been through. Let me like
put my nose in a comic and go like and
then have that solution. So I really think it's important
that we do have representation for the military, and I
do think it's important that they have a character that

(53:48):
they can throw a flag up and that we as
non military can go yeah and they can go yeah,
and there's a universality that that to me is so key.
It's just like a gun. Guns need to be in
the right hand ends, and I think that the iconography
needs to be in the right hands. Yeah, yeah, but
yeah and then uh, what was that? Um uh? Well,

(54:08):
so the Punisher, like you guys said, representing I mean,
he is very gun friendly obviously, and that's I feel
like one of the things that he's known for that
is his weapon of choice and he so essentially the
Netflix series had to tackle that. I know John Burnthall
has had to tackle that in many um in many interviews,

(54:29):
and just days before this year's or this past year's
New York Comic Con, Marvel and Netflix canceled their panel
for The Punisher because this there was the mass shooting
in Las Vegas a few days prior that I left
fifty eight people dead. It is really difficult, I think
with this continuing to happen in our country to promote

(54:49):
a gun heavy show. I think that I think what
they did was right, But I can't imagine being in
Burntall's shoes and having to answer to this every time
there is a mass shoot of like, um, hey, your
show is gun positive, I guess or pro guns? You know? Um.
I know that that's a question that he has to

(55:11):
answer quite often. So that was just, you know, something
that happened with the series that they had to push
the series back, and they also had to push the
trailer back. I remember from this past year, and I
definitely want to give Punish the series credit because the
show arguably is the best version that character has ever
been and arguably the most nuanced. And I really want
to give credit to the fact that they have a
pro gun seeming character in a show that handles gun violence,

(55:35):
political correctness, political disparity, UH, domestic violence, Stockholm syndrome, and
dozens of other very difficult to handle subject matter beautifully.
The entire show is more intelligent than I ever expected
to get a punisher. It's more detailed and layered, and
I want to give a lot of credits to Debra
and Wall because Debor and Wall's character is basically kidnapped

(55:57):
at points and then doesn't seem like a victim. She's
in a position of not being in power and acts
in a way that doesn't put her as a damsel
in distress and then overcomes things just with verbs verbiage,
and I really like this. There's a scene in Punisher
season one where there's a complete conversation in a hotel
room about gun control and she's a character that has
a gun in her purse on her at the time,

(56:19):
and there's a civil conversation about gun control, and it
is nuanced. It shows blue and red, it shows both sides,
and it's in a show called The Punisher, Like I
never would have thought when I was watching the Spider
Man animated series in the nineties that guy with the
white skull in his chest would teach me more about
both sides of gun control in a show. And that's
that's full credit to the writer's, full credit to John Burnthal,
Debra and Wall, everyone that made that show possible. It's

(56:41):
handling things that need to be discussed in a manner
that people will actually watch it. I don't watch documentaries
and gun control, but I watched the hell out of Punisher.
I would much rather something that is a blockbuster, like
screw bill Mar. Like I'm basically I'm saying, screw bull Mar.
I want things. I want blockbusters to have nuance. I
want these subjects to be in our blockbusters so we
hear that. I want kids to grow up. No, and like,
this is right and wrong, and Punisher of all characters

(57:02):
to do that. I think it's a great representation of
the character. Yeah, I was gonna say this is from
an a V article where it said it's unfair because, um,
The Punisher is hardly the only series to start a
hero who shoots people. It's very on point. They're right,
there are tons of them. Yet the handwringing about Frank
Castle doesn't swirl around other gun wielding heroes like Deadpool,
James Bond always with a gun, Indiana Jones, or John

(57:24):
Wick very famously with many guns, at least not to
the same extent. Yeah. True. Um, And so this was
a question that was uh that was posed that if, um,
if we're going to continue to have this, if there
are always you know, mash shoot in America, will there
ever be a suitable time to release The Punisher was
a conversation that came up when this was happening, and

(57:46):
so I think, like I agree with what you were
saying that they that they did show respect UM by
delaying it. I think it's still a conversation to have.
I understand if people don't want to watch this series.
I think, like you said, it's worth watching, and like
Jay Since said, I think it's it's one of the
best um examples of PTSD that we currently have, or
at least had this past year. So those were just

(58:09):
some of the harder conversations that we're surrounding this character,
who was a very complicated character, I think, and like
you said, times have changed where some of the things
that were okay possibly to show might have a different
conversation around them today. And not having the conversation is
in the answer. Ever, I think not having Punisher come
out doesn't have the conversation happen. And I think it's
like in the eighties when everyone smoked and then we

(58:30):
were like it's fine, and then everyone was dying. I
think the conversation needs to happen so we can decide
what the next move is. And I think swinging right
or left or getting mad at the other side isn't
going to solve it. Nuanced conversation that happens to be
on a Netflix show about superheroes is amazing. And the
fact that that's where we got one of the better
conversations and one of the better representations of PTSD, that's
that's a Christmas miracle. Like, I'm not mad at at all. Yeah,

(58:52):
I think we could end this on a lighter note.
Season two of The Punishers drops this weekend. I will,
thus pent be watching it for very personal reasons that
have nothing to do with John burn Actually, I do
want to say I watched the series twice. I loved
it so much. It's just so beautifully written. It's so
good if you haven't watched it. Um, So I watched
the first season, fell in love with John burn Thal,

(59:12):
watched it again and fell in love with Ben Barnes.
He's so good. Oh he's great. Prince Caspian himself. I mean,
he's in so many things, but he uh in West
World too, He's in West World. So um. He loves
playing he's that's the thing though. It's very good at
playing a charming villain. Yes, um, he is great in

(59:33):
the Punisher. And I love the fact that I was
able to watch it twice and fall for someone different.
I like that Micro is so important in the show. Yeah,
and the and the battle van, Like things that are
so important to the character to the fans are represented
on the show in a way that's better than the comic.
I like, I never thought i'd care about Micro, and
suddenly not only to care about microL I care about
Micro's wife, like I'm invested in his family in a

(59:53):
way that I didn't think I would be, And like
in the vans and danger like don't hurt the van.
And that's that's how rewatchable the show is. So I'm
really excited for season two, which I haven't gotten to
see yet, because it is a continuation of they built
a foundation of how much we love these characters. They
built a foundation of intelligence and a character that isn't
always intelligent, and a supporting cast that is incredibly strong,
like the CI agent, Debra and Wall Micro, all of

(01:00:15):
these characters that I didn't think i'd love. I can't
wait to spend thirteen hours with again. Well, uh, there
is one thing that I want to do before we
head on out of here, because we wouldn't be a
nerdy show with out a little speculation. Do we think
they're going to cancel The Punisher after? We don't need

(01:00:36):
to talk about that. You think they're going to drop it?
For people that don't know, we totally forgot to mention
that most of Marvel's Netflix series have been canceled. That
includes Luke Cage. Daredevil got canceled, right. The Punisher very
interestingly didn't get canceled, but it was because it's still
had to drop. So that's the big speculation. Jessica Jones.

(01:00:58):
Though hasn't It's got a season three coming up. Yeah,
Jessica Jones also after season shots. Um, I love that.
I know now I can't wait for you. But you
know what's so fascinating to me, Coin, I'm sure that
you've had this conversation, is that, Um, you know, it
doesn't because everyone's like, oh, they're moving over to Disney Plus,
which is Disney's new streaming service. But it doesn't sound

(01:01:20):
like well someone pointed out that contractually they can't even
do anything with the Yeah, and why would you if
you're the competation. Okay, so Disney Plus is trying to
take out Netflix, why would you go, Hey, we made
this great thing season three, Punisher, go give Netflix your
money for two years watching the first two seasons. Why
would you? That's like it's like trading like the all

(01:01:42):
the teams to the Red Sox or what like I'm
bad at sports. It's like doing a thing and sending
someone to your competition. Why would you ever be like, hey,
but you have to buy that subscription to see where
they started. Yeah, when when Luke I was so honestly
like shocked when they canceled Luke Cage because I really
loved his series and in a lot of people that
were working on it didn't know it was getting you know,
same with Daredevil. They were in the middle of the

(01:02:03):
writer's room like they or they were about to start
writing it. They didn't know that it was getting canceled.
And everyone's like, oh, I know what you're doing. You're
just taking it over Dizzy Plus and we're saying, no,
they're not. You're just not going to be able to
see them, or if you are, it's not going to
be who we have seen in those roles unfortunately. And
I think that they were perfectly cast. I thought Mike
Culture was a perfect Luke Cage. I thought um blanking

(01:02:24):
on yeah, Charlie Cox was a perfect Daredevil. Um, you know,
I don't think that we're but I don't know, but
I don't think we're going to see them on Disney.
There's a change Dot organ petition that's at last. I
checked a hundred and sixty thousand signatures for Save Daredevil,
which is one of the bigger ones I've seen, and
like Vincent Donofrio tweeted it out and I was like, oh,
that's serious. Honestly, Like, the second season of Daredevil is

(01:02:46):
one of the best things on Netflix. I think that
they addressed any issues, you know, when they were starting
out like they were the they were the guinea pig. Really,
they were the guinea pig. They were just kind of
getting funding for what it was. And then after that
we saw how like, oh crap, this is how good
it can look, This is how great the dialogue can be,
this is how great the storylines can be. Um, but
the first season if Daredevil was the guinea pig, and

(01:03:06):
I remember being like, what some of the choices, And
then second season I think they really were like you
know what, we heard you guys, and we made it
even better and they introduced the punish it was so good.
People forget that an O eight Iron Man came out
and The Dark Knight came out, right, but they forget
that The Hulk came out that year too. Ed Norton's
Hulk came out the same year Resign Man. You gotta

(01:03:26):
stumble sometimes and finally way back up, Like, nobody talks
about that Hulk, that movie that's came in the m
see you. Nobody talks about that learning curve they had
to take watching that Hulk movie. It's a lot of
the nineties problems that they hadn't solved. And I think
these Netflix shows, the leap of quality and Iron Fist
season one to season two cannot be overstated. Season two
is a good show, but season one left such a
bad taste in our mouths. The ron Fist never got

(01:03:47):
a chance, and like the last thirty seconds of Iron Fifth,
season two is the show we all wanted, but by
then we endured two years of like we get. So
it's a shame that Punisher has to die, because there's
no way they're going to do something with John burn
Felt as the Punisher on Disney plus like that that
doesn't fit for any of the things that Disney represents.
They fired James Gun about tweets from from nine years before.
They're gonna have a gun toting guys starting like, I

(01:04:08):
just don't see it happening under the Disney banner. I
do think we'll get all rated characters. I do think
that Mirrormax existed and therefore Kevin Smith got to work.
Like Kevin Smith and Tarantino both work for Disney effectively
in the nineties. They can do al rated stuff. I
just don't see them choosing a controversial character like Punisher.
So I think I think we might be done with
Punisher after season two hours later. I don't know. Maybe yeah,

(01:04:30):
I don't know. I was gonna say, maybe I'll get
his film, but I don't know if given the current climate,
if that's what they're going to be investing, and you
can't cancel it before because the thing about people that
are in the film industry. Imagine if you're you know,
a mom that just likes The Punisher that isn't in
the film industry, and you're like, oh, blah blah blah,
it's been canceled. You don't think to look for season two,
So they have to wait until it's already aired. So

(01:04:50):
you can cancel it for like logic based, if you
say it's canceled, you're not gonna go watch it. So
I think they're literally waiting until it's out for day
hours later. Maybe we'll be proven wrong. I'd love that. Please. Yeah,
I think you know there's there's something. There's something cookie
up the sleeves. I think. I think there's something that's

(01:05:10):
gonna happen that's gonna blow our minds. Maybe it'll happen
in two years. Maybe it will happen. You know what,
what if there's many made for TV films on the
Disney platform. But you do bring a good point where
I don't know if Punisher could possibly live on that
Disney platform if they're willing to do that jump. Maybe

(01:05:31):
there's a Marvel platform being announced. Who knows, you know,
something new because you know DC Universe just dropped. Maybe
Marvel is gonna have their guns. But it it is
like a tricky thing because that that is a good
point because there until I see the original seasons disappear

(01:05:54):
from Netflix catalog, I think nothing's going to happen just yet.
Until we see once you start and them disappeared, then
that's when it's like they're up to something. When I
know it was over, it was when we got Award
show screeners that said Netflix on them before Marvel and
their Netflix shows that are Marvel characters. They're not Marvel
shows released by Netflix. That's the difference, I think, and

(01:06:15):
that's why I don't think we'll see them on Disney Plus.
And also the subject matter. I think we're more likely
to get a new Daredevil than five years I think,
than Charlie Cox on Disney Plus. As much as I
want that, Dared Devil Is is one of my favorite
shows hardstop, not just comic show. I think it's one
of the best shows that exists. So I'm the first
person to be lining up to watch it wherever it lives.
I just don't know legally if that will work and
if it works for what the m c US building

(01:06:36):
they think about, oh eight, they already knew that by
the end of things, we'd have at least through Ultron.
They film they do five ten years ahead. I can't
imagine they'd want to incorporate things ten years ahead that
are in someone else's wheelhouse, Like why would you start
planning for something that may or may not happen, Like
Spider Man. Once we got the character back, it started
being within two years holy crap homecoming. But with all
of these characters on Netflix, they wouldn't start accounting for

(01:06:57):
those YEA, Logically, as much as I want it, like
I'll watch Darvill season one, two and three a hundred
times by the time because I'll be that'll be all
I have. Dan, We'll see. I'm excited to see Jigsaw
coming out though, Ben Barnes reprising his role as Jigsaw,
and I like that they're doing. If he's seen a
new trailer where it looks like a psychological Jigsaw, he

(01:07:18):
describes his face is busted up. Last episode. I know
because he's so oh you got a cat scratch, bro,
he's so pretty and I'm not kidding you that last
episode John burnt Ill beat the crap out of his face, Like,
holy crap, Now this will never happen. But Tinfoil hat theory,

(01:07:40):
if I had my way, if I was in control
of reality, I'd have all them show up at the
end of endgame and that would restart the universe. Tinfoil
hat theory. They go through a new So my theory
and in game is that we're going into a new
dimension and all the characters that died in Finn you
are actually did I think that Challa is gone. I
think Peter Parker's gone. I think all that's actually you're

(01:08:01):
you don't know that they have three film like three
picture options. But the Peter Parker and Far from Home
is a different to mention the Peter Parker. I think, oh,
you're saying they're different to mention. There's no way they're
already getting rid of Chadwick both because like both him
and which Tom Harland Holland accidentally said that he already
has like three pictures. He has two, he has two

(01:08:24):
more movies, you know, Far from Home, and he's got
one more after that. Your tinfoil hat theory is very
similar to minds, which is the sense that when the
world is restored, we find out that mutants have existed,
and that's how we're going to incorporate the X Men,
and that's how Scarlett, which has her own series, I
think I think we am of House, not House of
m What if she says mutants and it activates the

(01:08:46):
ex gen and mini series and then we get that
new universe. I also think that if you go to
a new dimension, how crazy would it be if we
finally get the Defenders in the Marvel universe, Like it
can't happen, but that would be its reality. I think,
because I again am in love with John burnt All,
I want him to continue. I think this is going
to be like his Walking Dead moment, and if if
he doesn't get to come back as the Punisher, He's

(01:09:07):
just gonna level up and get another This time, it's
going to be a cinematic hero though. I think instead
of just a TV he played essentially a TV villain,
TV villain, I think he's going to get something big movie.
His Taylor Sheridan works great. Who would you cast him as?
Does anybody you want him? Um? Oh no, because you know, um,
I could see his ruggedness being Wolverine being Wogan. But

(01:09:31):
you know, I just don't know if I want well,
I'm sorry, I don't know if I want Wolverine back
this close. I think that we're still too close to
when Hugh Jackman played him. I think he played him
so like, I just don't know if I want another
rugged you know, Griff like Wolverine that I think you
need to establish the X Men first. I think I

(01:09:51):
want the original five. I want to live with them
for a few movies before you want them young? Yeah,
I want Harry, Yeah you want Yes, I want to
go Harry. Even though I think that John Burnhal could
be Wolverine, I think that we need to see him younger,
like what they're doing in Spider I mean, obviously Peter
Parker is a teenager in the comics, but like, we're
probably gonna have Tom Holland for a little bit, you know.

(01:10:13):
I think we'll have Tom and then he would be
thirty because he's like twenty whatever four now, Yeah, I
think the Going In and skier Ron where he's like
a college professor. Like I'd love to see a long
form like Peter Parker where we evolve an age with him,
cause that's why the character so loved is we've lived on.
What would you do if you're watching The New Spider

(01:10:36):
Man and he's fighting off and for some reason, he's
fighting off against this guy named the Jackal as the punisher.
To reprise that fun fact, John Burnthal Tom Holland did
a movie to Yes. John Burnthal and Tom Holland helped

(01:10:56):
each other auditions for their respective roles in the universe.
So Tom Hollow was there when he was auditioning for
Punisher and vice versa. So if that happened, that would
be the ultimate life imitating art back to life. That
would be the most perfect thing. Once again, we're in
tinfoil hatland. But I would lose my I would run
out of that theater screaming. You see, like Pilgrimage. It
was the Pilgrimage that came out and last year it

(01:11:16):
came out. Um and yeah. While they were on set
they helped each other. John Burnthal helped Tom Holland with
his audition for Spider Man. Blows my mind. I just
think that's so magical. I think it's so cool. And
one of my other favorite things, the fun fact of
is on The Revenant, Tom Hardy was doing all those
doubs or what are those? What are those video where
you sing over things? Yeah, he was doing those, but

(01:11:37):
he was in a Punisher had a lot of the time,
so I kept being like, oh, is he gonna be
and right, he's another almost logan. Yeah yeah, yeah, I
don't know who Maybe we need a different type of
logan though. Yeah. So my John Burnthall would be a villain.
I think he'd be a good Shaw and the X
Men villain with those Mutton shops and like leading the

(01:11:58):
hell Fire. If he's gonna have Mutton shops, he a
thousand percent could be Lobo. Oh yeah, Lexie Alexander directing
John burnthall Lobo. It's all come full circle. I'm so
surprised that DC hasn't even jumped the gun on Lobo
since that's basically their deadpool. Michael bay Is, I think
they're coming in with it. I think Michael is directing
a Lobo movie. I think they're coming in and they

(01:12:20):
I want them to bring me on in some capacity.
I've pitched for Lobo so much of him coming, But
originally when I wanted him, it was like either Joe Magnello,
who I think would be perfect as Lobo, um Jason
and Mamo is already taken in that universe, so I
think the Rock Yeah, yeah, and there you have it.

(01:12:42):
We can dream. Yeah, Koia, where can everyone catch you?
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c
O Y j A N D R E A U.
You can find me on Collider Heroes all the time.
You can find me movie fighting all the time, because
it is the rare opportunity to me to talk as
fast as my brain wants me to talk, and you
can find me. A to comic cons is here, So
I think I'll be popping over to Amazing Con. Why

(01:13:04):
if you guys are in Honolulu, I think you're doing
that one and yeah, and I'm popping. I'm doing more
stuff with Nerdis. So just find me on the internet
because I love the conversations on Twitter, like Engage. My
favorite thing is talking to fans about comics because I
spent my entire childhood wanting to have these conversations. Now
that I do it for a living, it's the And
I'm going to be on your show next week talking
about The Punisher and see we will have watched it,

(01:13:24):
and we will know if some of our stuff is
we get a sequel to this, we'll see, Oh, so
we should do it. One one theory you have for
Punishers season two we kind of touched on. I think
they're going to kill Jigsaw. I think I think they're
gonna kill Micro. I yeah, I think they're gonna kill Micro.
I think they're going to kill Jigsaw and I think him. Oh,
I would love it. You guys are gonna see me

(01:13:45):
tweeting if this happens, I think him and Debra and
Wall are going to like actually do it. They've been teasing,
they've been teasing. I think she's going to be a
surprise that they shouldn't have revealed to us. I think
she doesn't come into late in the game and it's
a big moment, like she saves him. I think she
saves Frank later in the game. And I wish they
revealed she was in it. But it's a good marketing.
And I think they killed This is something I'm saying.

(01:14:06):
If they killed two either of those women that are
in there, I will be mad because it'll seem like
it's just another like killing a word like killing. Yeah, yeah,
And um, I want to see him in a Deborah
consummate there. Whatever they have going on, I need it. Um.
You know, it has a little bit of spice. Those

(01:14:26):
all of those Marvel Netflix series always have a little
bit of spice. And by spice, I mean people doing
it in the bedroom. So they got to get some coffee,
you know. That was the first episode of Luke Cage
when he came back. That was the first thing he
did with Claire on the kitchen table. I don't even
know this probably is going to get cut on a

(01:14:47):
lot to say, I am at ms Danny Fernandez. Um, yeah,
I will be on Collider Heroes. I think there yep,
talking about the Punisher with Coy and Amy. Um. And
I don't know what cons I'm at, so I guess
just stick around on my Twitter when I announce it. Yeah,
and you know me, I'm if you why the way

(01:15:08):
I f y n W A d i w E
on Twitter and Instagram, if d s on Twitch. Thank
you all from stopping by dropping those Twitch Prime subs.
If you don't know, if you have Amazon Prime, you
can sign up to Twitch, turn it into a Twitch
Prime account and give me a sub that costs you

(01:15:30):
zero dollars and just come by every month and re
up that sub. Come hang out on the stream. We're
talking about stuff that happened in the episode. We'll hang
out in the discord. Flickery big shout out to him
always dropping the cliff notes right in the discord so
you don't even have to click in the episode. He's
doing that for y'all so we can look at the

(01:15:50):
episode discussion, get the cliff notes, and have that talk
right there. Danny's in there. You can tag her. I'm
in there, hang out in the discord. That's uh disc
to dot g g Ford slash Salt Squad. And like
I said, if he's on Twitch unneath those Twitch Prime subs,
a lot of NERD fan coming in. Give it to me.

(01:16:10):
I got to say thank you for that love. Let's
keep that love going. You know what if he wanted
to say before we wrap, is that you know, we
talked a lot about um gun violence and a lot
of different things on this podcast, in particular given a
subject matter. So just please be respectful to Iffy, myself
and Coy. If you do at us, please do so

(01:16:31):
in respectful manner. If you don't agree with us, it's
okay not to agree, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Uh.
You know, it's funny that you bring that up. I
wanna quote my good friend, uh Ron Funches. He said
something today on Twitter that I resonated with so much,

(01:16:53):
and I'm meant to retweet him or retweet it now
after I read it, but he said earlier today quick
guide for following me. I say what I want, and
if you disagree and are nice, I will talk to you.
If you disagree in our rude you get blocked. My
feet is a dictatorship, not a democracy, and uh I

(01:17:13):
feel like that's true for most people's twitters. Just just
come with respect. We can have discussions and if you
get to heat to just disengage. We don't have to fight.
But as always, I'll see y'all online. Staying nerdies

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 40: The Punisher`