Episode 82: Watchmen

Who watches the Watchmen? Well, on Nerdificent you can listen about them! This week Dani and Ify are joined by writer and fan favorite Joelle Monique to discuss this ever-expanding franchise. From the earliest iterations to the new HBO series, learn about the Watchmen on this weeks Nerdificent!

FOOTNOTES:

Joelle on Twitter

I Think HBO's Watchmen is Tremendous Television. Lots of People Will Strongly Disagree

Adaptation of 'Watchmen' is Graphic But Not Novel

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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to another edition of Nerdificence. I am
one half of your host, Danny Fernandez, sitting across from
me as always. How's everybody doing? He looks, we look shnazzy,
very snazzy. We like match too, I know. And then
I have this excuse to break out. I can't raise
this too high. Not that you haven't like, I don't care.

(00:31):
I've I've bared all at all times, especially my friends.
That sounds bad. You know what we have that giggle
on here is you know where you love her. She's
a pop pop culture critic, amazing, very thoughtful writer. It
is our friend Joel Monique. Hey, I'm so excited. Hey,
how's it gone? I see you came prepared. You you

(00:51):
have readings, dramatic readings for you guys, especially as we
start to talk about the differences and similarities between the
show and comic book. Well, speaking of the show, we
normally talk about what we're geeking out about, but this
week we're geeking out about the Watchman show. Yes, Regina King,
and yeah, yeah, it's a lot. There's a lot happening

(01:13):
to show. Our good friend Cheyenne took me she was
working for HBO at New York Comic Con and so
they had the Watchman premier party there and Regina King. Listen,
famous people in public, they just stand out in a
way that we don't understand. Like she like, even when

(01:35):
I'm done up, like she was just glowing, Like they're
just on a different level than the rest of us.
That's that's true. That's true. But it's just like she
was wearing regular clothes. I feel like, but she Oh
my gosh, it was just radiant. Um, I feel that way. Yeah,
when I run into I don't know, like Chris Hemsworth

(01:55):
or something. Yeah, yeah, it's Regina. I feel like, specifically
as a post Oscar glow, like the women have babies
and they're glowing. She had an Oscar and she was like,
I have arrived finally, Holly would like, notice isn't recognizes.
She also talked about how she feels like she's really
coming to her own now. I mean, she's obviously been
around for a while. One of my earliest memories of her,

(02:16):
and this just goes for when I was growing up,
is um, she was in a Cinderella story. Do you
remember that? That was so long ago? Um, that was
like my Lizzie McGuire days. Um, but yeah, she she's
been a phenomenal actress for so long. But she said,
like having kids like that, really being a mother like
changed her acting style. Testing. I cannot speak to um

(02:39):
post children, pre children or Gina King performances, but I
do think that there's a level of comfort in this performance,
level of like inherent talent and badass three and sort
of like how did it take us this long to
realize she should be a superhero. She's just so false,
being like dark and brooding but also like really on

(03:00):
her detective stuff. Um, it's it's incredible. She had better
go all the nominations. That would be very upset about it.
We'll see, we've been we've been uh burned before. Alright,
let's just jump into the nitty gritty and start with
the comics. So Watchman is a comic book MAXI series
by the British creative team of that of writer Alan

(03:23):
Moore and artist David Gibbons, and colors John Higgins. It
was published by d C Comics in nine eighty six
in seven, and collected in a single volume edition in
nineteen eight seven. Watchman originated from a story proposal More
submitted to d C featuring superhero characters uh that the
company had acquired from Charlton Comics. As Moore's proposed story

(03:46):
would have left many of the characters unusable for future stories,
Managing editor Dick Giordano convinced Moore to create original characters instead.
See why he kind of blows out the world at
the end of Yeah, he actually originally so More wanted
comics from MLJ and he couldn't use those, So then
they recommended Charlton Comics would had which had just been

(04:09):
acquired by d C, but then he couldn't use those either,
So then you just ended up kind of creating characters
based off of their characters. This actually becomes like an
extreme blessing for the comic book because I think if
you're taking those original characters that come with all of
that backstory, which you know, it can be fun to
to see alternative universes, um. But to get this straightforward

(04:31):
look at superheroes, he was able to take multiple heroes
and make a Rory Shack and comment on what kind
of comics are you reading, our kind of stories are
we telling our kids, and who do we view as heroes?
I think it works much better as a metaphor and
using the characters a symbolism as opposed to taking those
direct characters and using them in that way. Yeah. So
Watchman depicts an alternate history where superheroes are real in

(04:52):
real life. What it would be like where superheroes emerged
in the nineteen forties in nineteen sixties sounds a lot
like The Incredible It is a little a little bit. Yeah,
that's what I thought of whenever Bradbird had that, because
it's like set in that fifties style and it's a
world in which what would happen with superheroes, Well you
would probably sue them. There would be you know, like

(05:13):
it's not as pretty as we think it is. It's
like Superman coming to save the day and we all
love him. It's like, no, they like, actually, this is
what it would be like in real life. I often
think of that with Batman. It's like, would we really
be okay with a billionaire dressing up in rubber? Definitely
not beating up people. I mean that was the one
like good takeaway I did have for The Joker where
it really did uh kind of addresses that like income

(05:36):
disparity and got them and like how they viewed it,
and I was like, that would be I mean, I
don't think people are ready if we truly do like
view that, if we got more than just that surface
layer of like there's poverty here, Yeah, because that that
would be cool to see how Batman deals with that.
I feel like the cartoons actually did try and lightweight
tackle it by making Bruce Wayne so much of a

(06:00):
lanthropist and it's like, uh so, I think we can
go beyond that and like see you like you know,
something like the Court of Vials but real life, like
you go in and trying to like break down this structure.
But that's another DC comic. Here we're talking about Watchman,
which has that if you wanted that insight on the world,

(06:22):
then uh you go, then Watchman is going to go
even deeper. Alan Moore very better and I mean that
in a good way. He has he's better or awake
if he see Well. What's also funny is like you know, um,
but he's like like British right, and it's so like
a lot of these quote unquote takes that he has

(06:43):
a Watchman have to do with you know, overseas, and
I think that's which you know, we're talking about Stephen
King not liking the Shining Uh. Alan Moore did not
like the uh Watchman. He didn't like V for Vendetta either,
doesn't this series either? Yeah, well, I mean and he could.
I could care less about the series because mostly because

(07:03):
I think we did better with this series what we're
supposed to do. Because yeah, you're you're a Londoner. You
that's your world. This is America. So if we're really like,
I like that he's a Londoner coming to like make
a comment on America. I like the the idea of
going to another place and examining it with fresh eyes.
And I feel like he's not so to me, it

(07:24):
doesn't necessarily feel like he's taking the pits out of America.
You know. It doesn't seem like it's it's degrading to
America more. It's just like a this is sort of
the all consuming fear that we all have. And I
think for a lot of pop culture things, you can
distill it to America because most of the pop the
world's pop culture, you know, originates here, like the big stuff,
the stuff that goes global. I think what I was

(07:46):
going to say to your point to both of y'all's
point is that he said it's not anti Americanism, but
anti Reaganism. So he did want to specify and and
it definitely that breathes through and I think that's fine too.
But when you have like a British why London or
come in, you always have oversight because the one thing
that Brits love to like try and like harp on

(08:06):
is like America's racism, totally trying to sidestep the fact
that they went ahead Africa. As a Nigerian, I always
have to point that out. But you know, but I
you know, I will pat them on the back that
you know, Uh, they still do put more interracial couples
on TV than we have in ever period. I remember
when I first watched Doctor Who. My first tweet after

(08:28):
it was like there was more interracial couples on TV
in one season than we've had in the history of Americans.
I feel that way about Black Mirror. I'm like, I've
never seen this many black and brown people period on
any shows, live in their lives, hanging out and being
tortured by internet. Um So, Joel, can you walk us
through some of the iconic characters from The Watchman and

(08:49):
what they're personalities are, their history. Sure, let's start with
the Minutemen. This is the original batch of Watchman characters.
That's you're still expector is your um night Owls? Who
else is on that team? Oh, my gosh, Billy Banks
or something like that. He's like basically a mascot for

(09:10):
the Bank, um, which is amazing. Um. The Minutemen are
an interesting team. They're started by Hooded Justice. Um kind of.
He's sort of the Hooded Justice is the first superhero period.
He stops robbery at a like local Delhi. People are like,
what is going on? They read the Superman comic. Comic

(09:30):
comic comes out. He's like, Yo, heroes are dope. I'm
gonna do that. I don't like defend people. But Hooded
Justice is sort of like their take on Batman kind
of in that he's like, I will never reveal my identity.
Nobody don't talk to me about anything. I have very
specific missions. He doesn't really get along with the rest
of the team. He's gay. Um, he's with another member

(09:50):
of the team. They fight a lot. It's messy. That's
really cool because I didn't know that about him. So
this was from the eighties. It's when he or the
Minute Man and come out like goodness testamentality here. Okay,
So nineteen thirty something we have the original Superman. The
Minutemen are like just a few years after that, so
we're talking late, I think is when he was really queer. Okay,

(10:16):
so that was part of the reason. I think he
was not taking off the mask um. And it's like
they would push him and Silk Specter together in photos
to make it look like he wasn't. There would be like, oh,
rumors they're dating Um, and that's how they tried to
pull that off. But eventually I was founded in nineteen
thirty nine during the Golden Age, being he does he
started to night The Minute Men are started in thirty nine. Yes,

(10:40):
there's a Keen Act of seventy seven. And then in
the fifties when Carthier is happening, all the superheroes get
called in and they're like, yo, you guys need to
tell us who you are. We don't like that you're
out here fighting crime. That's not really due process of law.
It's problematic. He was like, listen, not doing it disappears
um Stil Expector was the first one to kind of
realize that you could make money off of this, and

(11:01):
she was like, listen, I can market myself. People like
it will sell dolls. She tried to make a movie.
It bombed horribly, and after the disbanding of Superhero, she
didn't do really well. Her daughter later takes over her
mantle to varying degrees of effect. Um Night all former
police officers second Superhero, inspired by Hooded Justice a story.

(11:21):
He reads it in the paper. He's like, wow, you
see Superman. He's like, he has to want to do this.
He writes a book that tells all of them that
it men's dirty secrets, including the fact that the comedian
tried to rape Silk specter, so that really hurts the team. Um.
He's like, yeo, I'm done, I'm out, I'm coming clean.
They're coming after us anyway, what's the point um, And
then I'll just finish up with comedian. There's others, but

(11:42):
we can you guys can read up on this. Comedian
is like basically a soldier for hire. He starts by
being this kind of like wears a black mask, very
like leathery sort of vibes going on. Um, and then
once the government is like listen, no more superheroes. You
can come work for us, though, because you're pretty good
at your job. They dropped him in Vietnam. He is
having so much fun killing women and children, very disturbing

(12:06):
until Dr Manhattan is created on accident, joins him and
now he's a human walking bomb and he is a god.
He ends the war, and that is sort of what
starts the retro direction of the history in Watchman. It's
basically like a parallel universe. But if people became heroes
and Dr Manhattan en did the war, so America wins

(12:28):
in Vietnam. It's like a rousing victory. We pick up
Vietnam as a state and then from there we're like
booming with technology. Dr Manhattan introduced us this holy world
of like text. We have electric cars. Now computers are faster.
It's like a glorious kind of Golden Age with heroes
back on control. Everyone feels pretty good. Then in the
seventies you have the next round of superheroes, so you

(12:50):
have a new night Owl. So it comes back Dr
Manhattan's fighting. It doesn't last very long. Governments like you
can't do this. We have actual people to uphold the law,
and that's what we enter here. Rorshack is like, listen,
I'll give an e foot any of you say, I'm
going to still go out here where my weird changing
mask and uh be a hero? Um, And the book
kind of takes a really sharp look at again who

(13:14):
we call a hero? Oh yeah, I forgot to say so.
The Watchman term comes from a Latin phrase that essentially
translates as who watches the Watchman? Yes? Right, and it's
and it it is like that general. I think the
mythos of the book is just basically Lex Luthor's like
initial mythos against you know, against Superman, which is like, what,

(13:37):
we shouldn't trust this powerful alien like in in a
normal world, Lex Luthor isn't really that much of a
bad guy. He's just someone with sense where it's like, no,
we shouldn't let this superpowered alien just do whatever he
wants and then that drives him mad, uh and money
and all that. But it is funny how like Lex,

(13:58):
Yeah he isn't. No, he has a point and yeah
it is an insight. So the just to talk about
all the information that went down, is that just sprinkled
throughout the book or is that all supplemental stuff as well,
or so if you get I've only ever read Watchman
as the completed novel, so I know some people who

(14:18):
have read it separately. I think they still had all
this little bit of information in the back of each comic.
There's like either a big magazine or a book that's
between that gives you all this like very rich history.
Phil for example, the first night Owl he wrote, The
parts of the book he wrote are in the first
two comics, and then there's um, there's a secondary pirate

(14:41):
comic they write that sort of parallels all of the
things happening inside of the story. It's about um, a
big ship that souls basically is that's the one that's
kind of like popping up throughout the throughout the story. Right. Yeah,
the kid at the newsstand, he's always listen to the
news stand treat it which if you're poor and do

(15:02):
you every went to a comic bookstore just to read
the comics, he could relate. That was my story. Um,
and the floor of borders putting bookstores out of business.
That's what millennials did. Listen, you would have liked to
have read those. It wasn't just you, it was all
of us. I don't know why Borders never stopped us
from reading all those manga on the floorboards, like just

(15:23):
droves of kids just sitting in the Walden's books, Borders,
Barnes and Nobles. Really not a single employee said anyway.
The employees were not paid enough to care in the
same way that my saw pomping movies at the AM sales,
like God, bless you have fun kids, I don't have
the time. Always that one though, there's always that one
who just feels it's going to get them employee of

(15:45):
the try it, and then they don't get employee of
the month. And then they they realize everyone has to learn.
Everyone does one extra thing at there, like part time
job and get no recognition for it. And that's when
you learn, oh, this is useless. I remember, I think
about mine every Halloween. At Halloween horn nights. I was

(16:05):
so trying to like I was like trying to stand
out and be like the good one. And like if
I knew, I knew if I stood out, you know,
they would they would keep me. And there was a
guy all he was he was just trying to bring
in a pipe with some weed. You don't have a
good night. I don't know why you would try and
be high in a scary place. That is my worst nightmare.
But he was. He was doing it, and I caught

(16:26):
him and he was like he was a young brother too.
We looked and he tried to keep gave him the
bro like come on, bro, and I was like, I
need a job, bro, And I poured him and they
patted me on the back and then they let me
go at the end of the season. And that's when
I learned, never would never show out, never break color lines,
always employee lines. We have to take a really quick break.

(16:47):
And they were going to hop back into more of
The Watchman right after this, and we're back. Was there
any other characters that we okay, okay, so let's just
to wrap. There are so many characters, guys, so I apologize.

(17:08):
So just to recap in our current day, we have
a version of night Owl. He's new. We're younger, frashure.
This is all he's ever wanted to do. We have
Silk Specter. She dresses in the yellow and black. She's
the daughter of the old Silk Specter. She doesn't really
want to be here, but she's doing it anyway. When
she was sixteen, she started looking up with Doctor Manhattan,
who was like late thirties early forties when she was sixteen?

(17:33):
Is this from the text the original text very clearly
she was sixteen free. I was sired to read it
twice like wait what, um so that happened? Um, but
they're together for twenty years. It's still weird, but context
I don't know. Um So. Then Dr Manhattan, big blue
guy likes to walk around naked and basically a bomb. Um.

(17:55):
Then you have Rorschach. He has the as iconic. He's
got the trench coat, the hat, he's sort of designed
out of off the question, which is a character from DC. UM.
He had his face changes and uh, he was abused
as a child, he had a horrible life, and he
thinks of the mask as his face. Uh. Then you
have Azzymandias, who it sort of becomes a bad guy.

(18:19):
Spoiler alert. If you're like liking everything we're talking about,
like maybe I'll go read this comic, stop like don't listen.
Um okay, okay, alright, we're good. We just want to
make sure maybe sometimes you change mind way okay. Um.
This guy basically thinks he's the next coming of Alexander
the Great. Um. He is a narcissist of the highest order.

(18:42):
Um is born wealthy, gives all of that up, tracks
through the desert, follows like Alexander's path, regains all of
his money, becomes like this marketing genius basically, so he's
a billionaire. He owns a huge company. He predicts trends.
At the end of this story, Oh and a year
before the Keen Act, which outlawed superheroes forever, he revealed

(19:05):
his identity, which is really important to note because this
is sort of what makes people trust him. They're like, oh, well,
he was honest with us, and he told us who
he is, and he's a good guy's a philanthropist, and
he's in good shape, and he's white and he's blond.
He's the best. Also, want to say, the privilege of
like giving all your money away and still being able
to get it all back. It was wild. It's a

(19:26):
wild journey. And so and he's kind of like a
suave ladies like you, women would want to be with him,
but we don't see him with a lot of ladies.
Like that's heard of the persona that he has. Uh.
In the end, he decides that what the world needs
UM the whole book is based off the fears of
an atomic bomb an atomic attack again. Um, and what
do we do when we're afraid? So his solution is,

(19:49):
if we're all afraid of different countries and borderlines, what
if a giant space squid fell from the sky, landed
on New York killed half the population, start talking about
three million, three and a half people. Uh, and then
we would be afraid of space and so we would
like band together and it picking worked. People were like, yo,
screw that space alien. We're john with technology, Like, we

(20:12):
don't want none of that anymore. We need a new
cowboy in office. Um. So Robert Redford runs for president
at the end. Um And basically yeah, then he sort
of gets to get away with it. So so gets
away with it, right, So here's the thing in the text.
The final scene is Rorschach, who's been keeping a journal

(20:34):
of everything, discovers, Oh, this is what he's gonna do,
writes all of that downtown to into a conservative newspaper.
Now that's all you know. So it's a very much
a cliffhanger at the end of the book. If you
choose to follow the stories Cannon as it travels to television.
We have answers about how that ends now if you
want to transition, but I want to talk about too.

(20:56):
I'm just for some reason, I'm forgetting Dr Manhattan's arc.
What what ends up happening with? Oh yeah, okay. So
Dr Manhattan basically decides to leave because he doesn't understand
humanity anymore. He's become just like higher thought. Basically, he's
like a dead body has the same atoms as an
alive body, so there's literally no difference to me. Yeah,
he's a galaxy brain like the version I'm thinking so

(21:20):
much further beyond humanity. So he goes to Mars and
he builds himself little palace. He's having good time there,
but there is one person he cares about. That's Laurie,
oksal expector. So he comes back down, grabs her, whisked
her off to Mars, and it's like, you know, if
you can convince me to care about these humans, maybe
I'll come back. Now. Dr Manhattan sees in multiple times,
so basically anything that's happening to him, it's all happening

(21:41):
to him at once. If that makes sense. What happened
eight now it all he can see it all at
the same time happening to him because in the future
and the past. Um. But he convinced me, basically convinced me.
So just as a note on what you just said. Visually,
it's really cool because you're having these multiple animals showing

(22:01):
like these different time frames and it's translated within that
way instead of just outright saying it. As you're watching
these different moments happen. Listen, I'll read you three panels
real quick. And this this is Dr Manhattan talking. He's
on Mars. He's looking at a photograph of him and
his first wife Janie. He says, the photograph is in
my hand. It is the photograph of a man and
a woman. They are an amusement park in nine nine.

(22:24):
In twelve seconds time, I dropped the photograph to the
sand at my feet walking away. It's already lying there
twelve seconds into the future. Ten seconds now. The photograph
is in my hand. I found it in a derelict
bar at the Gilla Flatts test based twenty seven hours ago.
This is how he sees all of time. It's either
happening now and it's all at the same time. So basically,

(22:45):
Lori's like, listen, if you love me and the plausibility
of all of time that I came into being, Like,
you have to see the miracle that is humanity and
want to protect that. And he's like, okay, kinda yeah.
He pops back down to Earth, but he lands like
two seconds after the squid has already done its job.

(23:06):
The squid lives for like six seconds, three seconds and
then dies immediately. Um. It turns out Azzy's head like
these Basically he said up a bunch of different satellites
and stuff that would block his ability to see in
the future, and what he what specifically Ozzy was doing.
I want to say that I am so floored by
the fact that he's so inhuman and he still gets
a ton of booty, Like I mean, I'm listening to

(23:28):
this and I'm like, this man is a human calculator
and then he's just like scoring hot, Like we just
want someone to hold us and respect us, Like, truly,
how many of of your friends are chasing emotionally unavailable men? Mean,
I mean, listen, you know what he does. Though he

(23:48):
probably keeps all his appointments, he doesn't go like he
probably basicle, if you're super emotional, I prefer a practical
partner who's like, let's just look at the He's probably
very time oriented. He can also be multiple places at once,
so he didn't have as many hands as you would
need to get the job. He's not going to send
you ah y w y d text like you know,

(24:08):
he's going to be considerate anyways, I'm sorry, I'm just
looking at the pictures of the women that he's that
makes you feel any better. Lorie leaves him at the
end of the comic and is off with her owl
guy um, and they have like a very domestic ending.
It's cute, um, but to your point, he comes back,
um Rorschach cannot take the injustice of Azzi Mandius winning.

(24:30):
So uh, Manhattan snaps him dead basically, and his like, listen,
you can't be here ruining our plans. We're trying to
achieved piece at a horrible cost, but it's achieved. Let's
not because that's what happened. Is Manhattan's kind of like, oh,
I get what you did, and yeah, He's like, I
wouldn't have done it, but we're here now, so what
about yeah, and is losing his mind crying in the

(24:53):
snow and he's like all right, by Yeah, begs him
for death. He's like, just do it because this world
this freaking nuts. Uh. And that is what document. Then
he goes back to Marks, He's like, yeah, I really
don't care about anything. Happy to hear Pete out. So
we have to talk about just a couple of other
comic stuff before we hop into the movie, which I
know if he wants to talk about. Um. So there
were nine prequel mini series in so if you do

(25:18):
love the comedian I don't know for some reason, and
you want to read I mean his prequel, um, there's
an entire comic devoted to him. There's also Doomsday Clock,
which I heavily, I actually really enjoyed, although it's not
over like they were dealing with a lot of delays,
So now you know, okay. So essentially Doomsday Clock is

(25:41):
was written by Jeff John's and uh art by Gary
Frank and Color Sprad Anderson. So it was essentially a
world where what if Dr Manhattan like left this universe? Uh.
And but what happened with it is that it was
supposed to affect the rest of d C comics. However

(26:01):
the rest of d C comics has kind of like
moved on, So it's like, what are we doing with
this storyline? Uh. Something cool that happened when the original
Watchman came out was that it kind of made the
other DC comics a little bit darker. Uh. This was
a super dark comic and it kind of influenced Superman
and Wonder Woman and Batman at the time. So they

(26:23):
ended up doing a one shot It's called DC Universe Rebirth,
and that was too essentially essentially explained that Dr Manhattan
was the reason why that was happening. Yeah, so um,
and I know this because I talked to our friend
Hector Navarro, who is like encyclopedic knowledge, and I'm like,
explain this universe rebirth. It's a fun It's a fun

(26:45):
rebirth because if you think about the theme of time
and how the importance of it throughout Watchman and the
idea that all Moore did fundamentally change the face of comics,
not yes the Watchman, because now on a literary scale,
it's comics are now considered, uh being cosidered period, where
before they were like child's play and I was like, no,
look great art. Um. So, between this series and Swapman,

(27:07):
not only did things get darker, but we also started
taking comic books more seriously. We started looking at artists
more seriously, and I think that there's something kind of fun,
especially with the difficult relationship Alan Moore And do you
see that out of them being like, well, well we'll
pay homage like many many years too late and after

(27:27):
making very terrible deals with you, but well we'll try to,
you know, honor you in in this way. Um. I
kind of wish I had stuck around and it would
have been interesting to put that whole layer up. But
I think there's also a lot of pressure for writers
to constantly considering this cornerstone work that is constantly making,
you know, maybe not the greatest statements about superheroes in general.
To try to work under that umbrella all of the

(27:48):
time on something you genuinely love might be challenging. Definitely.
Do you both also know about the button them Facebook? No,
the comic, Oh yeah, but please explain that to to people,
Smily is buch is like iconic. I didn't know what
it was for like the first twelve years of my life.
The lore of it, to the best of my understanding,
is this, The smiley face is one of the most
recognizable symbols. Uh in the United States at the time,

(28:11):
and because he's a comedian, they were sort of looking
for like a badge or a symbol for him. Every
different hero got a badge or a symbol because, um,
they're trying to god to market them to the larger public.
So he became the Smiley Face. But if you know
anything about the comedian, you know that he's laughing at
literally everything, and that gets very disturbing up to a point. Um,
and so the opening image for the comic sort of

(28:34):
that smiley face flattered with blood. It's on the cover. Um,
it kind of just represents both the comedy and the
gore that you're about to get into. Yeah. So there
was a comic that came out called The Button. It
was comic book crossover. It was actually a storyline where
Batman in the Flash worked together to uncover the truth
behind the mysterious button that they found, or that Batman

(28:56):
found in the bat Cave. Uh So, there's so much
are honestly behind the Watchman. But we also had a
film that had a lot of It was released in
two thousand nine and directed by Zack Snyder, and it
was based off the comics. I mean, really, there's only
one thing to really talk about because it is like
a pretty faithful adaptation. Uh, and you know it has

(29:17):
it's one of those one uh one of the it's
the one uh broken clocks being right twice where his
Zack Snyder's dark vision, you know, totally fits this comic.
And and this was two thousand nine, so we haven't
seen in a million times. It was very fresh, you know,
we're very ready for it. So it's great. Yeah, there's,

(29:38):
like I said, really nothing to say because it falls it.
There was only one change and that's why I had
to bring it up because I have to talk about
how much I dislike this change. And change was they
removed the squid that we talked about and everything that
we explained and changed it to Dr Manhattan exploding in
New York. And this is what was supposed to, uh

(29:58):
make you know, all the states that were at odds
come together. And you know because Doctor Manhattan quote unquote
went rogue, which which if you know anything about just
the way politics and the blame game that comes with
disasters go, that would that just wouldn't happen. And that's
just a complete lack of like if that happened, no

(30:21):
one would assume that doctor Man hadn't went wrong rogue,
it would be looked at as the us at fault.
It would probably be speculized that maybe they were testing
it to use on one or the other one, maybe
even furthering this arms arms race. So the squid was
perfect as is. And the reason I disliked it is
because it felt like that very early early two thousand

(30:42):
nine comic book movie thing of being of thinking, oh,
this was too silly and it only works in a comic.
It was exactly that. I remember reading a lot of
interviews with that kinding like it we can't really do that,
Like who would a believe it? Or be like I
think it we came about. I mean, I'm trying to
thou nine graphics and like what that would physically look like.
But if you look in the comic, I think it's

(31:03):
like only two or three panels and all you're seeing
our tentacles. You have a big eye and a couple
of tentacles on a building. You have my attention. You know,
it's been a long day. I have to make our
all right. Well that and that's pretty much the movie. Okay,
So the budget was one thirty hundred thirty eight million.

(31:26):
It actually did make a hundred one five point three
million of box office, so it did make its money
back and more. Nice. I mean, it's funny because I
I've have a strong film opinion about superhero movies, and
it's funny to think back in those days when you
were making only like eighty million more when you make
a superhero movie. Uh you know. I believe superhero movies

(31:50):
are guaranteed hits now because we they've been so consistent
for so long that it's trusted that people will at
least see it, even if it's a spectacle, which is
why movies like Joker and Venom still do really well,
even though like everyone's like this, even people online are
like this can't be that great. Uh so. And my
my pitch before we move on is that instead of

(32:11):
trying to hire these like big time you know directors
who like do it, I think you should pilot newer
directors on movies and let them. Here's my pitch to
to double down on that and give them a smaller budget,
makes small budget, intimate stories with superheroes. We do not
need an apocalypse at the end of every superhero movie.

(32:32):
I'm so tired of I mean that's why Aunt Man
was so refreshing. Yea, you went from these big thing
to like a small heist and a guy who loves
his daughter. Same with Homecoming felt so good. Jason Aaron,
who did that really good run of Hawkeye? I think
so yeah, do that. I don't understand why that is
not a movie we've been got yeah yet or even

(32:54):
like how we don't have a really good like Kamala
khan As, like you know, a young girl just in
high school fighting a local bag guy with a killer soundtrack,
like done, wrap it up. I'm ready. I'm waiting for
because I think whatever Kamalakan movie comes out, it needs
to be shot like a teen movie. That's what I'm saying. Like,
I don't understand how doesn't have an entire line of
teen movies. I'm so sorry this is really off tracked,

(33:14):
but just like really quick between her and America Javas
and both Spider Man, like you've got an entire and
then you have uh, oh my gosh, what are their
Young Justice version? Oh you're talking about the New Avengers
have a Hawkeye and I mean technically Captain Marvel yes,
in the Little Queer babies give them to me. Um, well, yeah,

(33:34):
I think that. I think what they're doing though, is
they want to make sure that everyone goes to Disney Plus.
So that's why a lot of those and I think
to their meredit, I mean, for the Mandalorian, they're giving
them a movie budget, and it's yeah, it's it's really
cool seeing the stuff that they that they have planned
for Marvel and taking these like side stories that won't

(33:57):
be these huge movies, but can explore these stories which
will hopefully, yes, we'll lead to New Avengers and me
being cast as cap uh you know, just you know,
I was you know, I was running out of black
heroes and then now we're getting so deep in there
that we can go like new powerman Young Uh. I
feel bad for forgetting his name, Well it was was

(34:19):
it Justice? I don't know, Uh, are you talking about Aquel? No,
I'm talking about even though he were like no, no,
it's the leader of Young Justice and he's the Isaiah Bradley.
That Isaiah Bradley, his grandson Elijah Bradley, patriot of the
Young Avengers. So I was super doubling that they Avengers

(34:40):
and and Justice have black leads. Were still off tract,
but it's Young Avengers, not New Avengers. I misspoke and
Young Justice. I see why. We're okay anyway, Yeah, we digress.
We have to take a really quick break and then
we're going to hop into the show. Now if you
haven't seen it, We're not going to give any huge
spoilers away. We're just going to kind of talk about

(35:02):
we're gonna set it up and kind of talk about
some of the issues that it tackles. Right after this
and we're back. So Joel, who you are actually doing
recap for if you have watched the show, or once
you do watch the show, if this makes you want
to watch it. Where can people catch your recap? A

(35:24):
V Club TV club about nine oh five every day
after the episode airs. Um, we get into heavy spoilers,
so you know, it's a recap com prepared, but also
trying my best to try to give you guys enough
history from the original comic and talk about what's being
laid over and it makes some wild predictions at the end. Um.
The message boards on avy Club are amazing, so if

(35:46):
you guys want to join the conversation, they're giving me
so much new information. Damon Lindelof. He loves this story
so much. She's got a quote actually on the back
of my comic. Uh, the greatest piece of popular fiction
ever produced. So does a direct quote from Damon about Watchman. Uh.
This comes out two thousand five, I think so, almost
twenty years ago. Um. It's amazing to me that he's

(36:09):
been able to produce such a high quality, such a
thought provoking, thoughtful, loving like homage to the original comic,
and still make it polished and updated four viewers today,
like even just two episodes in. It's it's quite an accomplishment.
I'm loving the TV series. Yeah, so can you set
it up for us? What are we walking into thirty

(36:32):
five years into the future? Roughly? It' um, yeah, from
the future of watch From the future of Watchman. So
the Watchman d nineteen eighty five, that's when the squid drops.
Eleven two is the date they used to describe the event,
much like our nine eleven. Um. You enter in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
The cops have just faced what it's called the White Night,

(36:55):
which is a night where a local white supremacist terrorist
organization invades all the cops homes and does their best
to assassinate, murder, remove all of them in a single night. Uh.
They don't fully succeed, but they get pretty close. The governor,
along with the police, decide that the best option is
for them to be masked. So they're essentially a police

(37:16):
force of superheroes. So they don't view themselves like that
at all. They're like, we wear the mask for our
own protection because people try to assassinate us. Um, some
stuff you can get off of. There's a thing called
pd PDA which is run by Dale pet of the FBI.
UM the Operation against Mass Heroes something I can't remember

(37:39):
the acronym, but basically, the FBI runs an organization that
helps make sure any vigilantes are immediately snuffed out before
they take charge. Um. And there you get a bunch
of like really great information mostly. Uh, what I want
to focus on today here is that after Doctor Manhattan
goes back to Mars, there's in the middle of Watchman
there's a theory that he's causing cancer to those closest

(38:02):
to He invented a lot of technology that helped move
them up. The world's up technology technologically, and now people
are afraid of technology. So in the show, there are
beepers and still a phone book, and mostly people use
landlines because they've become terrified of technology and the damage
that it can do, so much so that companies have
to be like, listen, we have a new computer and
you need to use it. It's not dangerous, we promise you,

(38:24):
like please, please, please, don't be afraid of the technology.
We need to move forward. It's also the reason cops
are kind of stuck in the past. Not enough crimes
are getting solved because we haven't updated to a computer system,
which means we're still doing everything by hand with old
giant binders. It's messy, old school police work, which makes
for a cool, gritty like crime drama because it gives
you that old school feel and it doesn't feel forced.

(38:45):
I'm sorry because I review these. I've seen some of
head and I want to make sure and I give
you guys, any kind of spoilers or anything. Well, I
can talk about a side thing that isn't necessarily a spoiler,
because it wouldn't be an episode of Nerdificent if we
didn't ruin some Nerds stuff with our s J you
crap like this takes place in Tulsa, which is known
for the bombings of Black Wall Street. And I heard

(39:08):
that they actually do some like some homages akin to
that to kind of, you know, actually like bring this
because I think a lot of people don't know that
that happened. I mean, I definitely was late in life
when I found it. I spoke about it as if
I've already died. Uh, But like it's it's it's a
it's it's funny because it just kind of is a

(39:31):
such a response to theo why won't the black community
pull themselves up by their bootstraps? And it's like, WHOA
we were? And every time we do it, white people
are there to, you know, come along and just burn
it to the ground. And and so sorry I didn't
Well no, let's let's talk about that if you. Because

(39:52):
this show Watchman has a ninety eight percent certified fresh
on the Tomato meter, that is by critic. Almost a
hundred eighty nine reviews have gotten it to audience score
forty three percent. Um. When you look at WHOA, why

(40:14):
do we think that critics have Yeah, And it's because
it is, um, this is what we're talking about. I
am so upset. I don't know people who vote it
thumbs down because it's because here's the thing. I am
patting DC on the back for tackling this. And on
Immigrant Day I retweeted it they said, immigrants make the

(40:38):
multiverse better hashtag immigrants. Yes they did. I am so
happy that they are, like, f y'all, we can't say
the real thing. Um, you know, they're telling these stories.
But one thing I kind of want to Sorry, I
didn't mean to cut you off. I want to touch
on because something you were saying and with the tomato
meter that made me think is like the thing that

(41:00):
that gets me is like, I think, like the people
who are like dumbing it down and saying as forced
s j W. They aren't even people I think are
fully on the right. It really are is this group
of people who are quote unquote apathetic, who are quote
unquote in the middle, who are quote unquote And then
every time I see that sentiment, it always comes. It

(41:22):
seems to come from that group more than anything. And
it's very funny because it goes back to that thing
of like when they say when you don't uh, it's
the Martin Luther King quote where everyone uses where like
if you if you don't pick a side, you have
chosen the side of white supremacy. But it's like, but
it really does feel that way where it's like you're

(41:43):
the like cool, you don't want to pick a side,
but if someone wants to speak out against the you know, oppressor,
then then you have a problem. I've definitely had some
of these comments and you know chatter, I mean, like
I just don't understand. And a lot of times it's
so funny because their critiques are so very vague. They're
like something's just like I just feel it's very contrived. Yeah,
thought was put into it. It is contrived. So I'm sorry,

(42:05):
but did you read the original comics by a man
who literally people were saying was anti American. But there's
also the thing that people walked away thinking Rorschack was
the hero of this story. So a lot of people
are not getting and so let's let me wrap. Okay.
So Nicole Cassell, who was the director of the pilot
and episode two, the way she shot that opening scene

(42:26):
was like you felt history come alive in a way
that I don't think we often get, especially for like
black people. Like it's sort of it reminded me of
um Spielberg's saving Private Ryan. Those which are just very
intimate portrayals of what chaos and catastrophe looks like. Um

(42:46):
and I think that what the show was giving us.
In we saw Night Sister, that's Regina King's character, visit
a museum recently and like learn you could basically just
look up family history in there, which is I'm like,
if you know your family history, if you can trace
it back, that's incredible. So many Black Americans cannot. UM

(43:06):
my family we've gotten back to I want to say,
my three grades, so we can track two decades back
in two people into slavery, back to grandmother's past. That
there's just not records. We just we were nameless on paper,
being shifted around in different places. You can't track your
history like that. So if there was a way to
have a DNA database to sort of start examining, you know,

(43:28):
who were your people and where do they come from
and what does that mean? Like, my god, it's amazing
the idea of like I know, redfordations are rubbing people
really the wrong way. That's Robert Redford gives black people
reparations in the show. And it's still beautiful. Now they
live in like this thriving metropolis of black people so
many black extras on this damn show just looking amazing
living in this like stunning space, a space that I

(43:49):
think typically would have been gentrified by white people is
what it looks like, but it's got a whole one
to like a thriving black community. And I think that
for David, he was like, if you don't know David
Lindloff is um creator of Lost, He did um and
having a brain fart y'all. Lost, Oh Leftovers, Um soosere
are his two big shows. He does these really thoughtful
examinations of what it means to basically exist, Like what

(44:11):
does it mean to be a person, a good person?
How do we handle ourselves in crisis? For him to
turn his eye and be like, so, like, what have
black people been doing under crisis in America forever? Starting
in but then also going back in the second episode
to look at black people fighting for um America in
World War One and what that was like when you

(44:31):
could not get equal service in America but we're dying
for your country. How does that like rek havoc on
the soul? And then more importantly, what does that do
to your children and their children? And how do we
carry that? He said very openly, like he was nervous
about it, but that as a person in a position
of power, he felt it important. And as a black
person who loves comics, who's always, you know, very excited

(44:53):
to go to these movies and see these TV shows
or whatever, to feel that Lens specifically turned to my
community in a way that is not looking down upon
or feeling bad for but just simply examining the circumstances.
My god, well, to me, it's so telling whenever, like
you said, examining the circumstances. And when people I literally
I was reading reviews of it and one said preachy

(45:16):
and another says forced. And I'm like, why is it
that when we tell our stories it's forced. It's because
they're not thinking about it, so it feels forced. It's like, oh,
because never in your life do you think about this,
because it doesn't feel forced when people when when you
watch success and you're like, oh, they're not they're forcing
this idea that being rich is so bad. Also, don't
say you have a hard time understanding black stories when

(45:37):
you're watching all those rich people and you ain't never
been rich in your life. You know, like it's just
like it's people that people are always reaching and making
some sort of excuse or you know, b as to
like to like try and like shoot down things that
are trying to say something and to like like and
we set this a few episodes back to like really

(45:59):
try and like look at a medium that was really
uplifted by two Jewish dudes from New York and try
and be like, oh, it's s j W. Force. It's
like now it's been literally creating Superman to go fight
like a monster that was attacking them directly. Like, Also,
what do you think the Justice League or any of

(46:20):
these are they are warriors fighting for social justice? Like
like we get those comments sometimes too iffy and I
I'm like, well, we're talking about superhero culture. What do
you think superhero culture is. It's a team of of
superheroes who are taking on who are trying to write
the injustice is done to marginalize groups. Well here's what

(46:40):
what what it is and uh and then after this
weekend close, But here's what it is is that the
way every person who reads superhero, the way we the
idea that we have of a superhero is someone who
fights for what's important. The problem that that we have that.
I think that is being lost in translation is the

(47:01):
idea of what's important to people. If if if the
if you know, if equality and freedom for all people
isn't important to you. Every time you see those heroes
fight that it seems like they're doing something weird, but
it's like, no, bro, you just never realize. You just
never paid attention because you've only cared about yourself. You've
only cared about the things affecting you, and you've let

(47:21):
that be an excuse and let that make you into
a whiney, shriveled up person who honestly can't be that good.
Because if you cannot care for the people who are
surrounding you, if you cannot care for your fellow human being,
you have no humanity and you are a villain. You're
not a hero. Yeah, And I want to say to
the people that are like, well, just don't change the
source material. I would like you to go back in

(47:43):
the time when the source material was made in the
thirties and forties, and we were not allowed in those stories.
We were not allowed to be on screen, we were
not allowed to be on the cover. So yeah, now
it's going to be reflective. This we were always a
part of the world, we just weren't allowed to be
reflected in it. Now we are so sorry that they're
infusing us into the story. We've always been here, we

(48:04):
just weren't allowed to be on the cover. How do
you want better? We'll do whatever we want to the
source material. You go read the source material. You want
to read that, go read that. It's there for you.
It's not getting deleted. I can't encourage you enough if
you're enjoying this conversation to just keep watching Watchman, because
the way they're examining the history of comic books and superheroes,
especially in some of those later episodes, I just you guys, shaken, shaken.

(48:30):
There's a moment I had to pause and write a review.
I skipped four reviews to write a review. I was
so moved by an episode. I was like, you did that, Like,
I just think it's so important that if you're not
ready to or don't want to examine your white privilege,
and or if it makes you uncomfortable to see black
and brown people in heroic roles, or if it makes

(48:52):
you uncomfortable to see the destruction and the devastation that
they faced to take a second, and ask yourself, just
why are you uncomfortable with that? And do that on
your own without ruining or or trampling on other people's
excitement to just see themselves on a screen. You see
yourself all the time. Take yourself out of it. I
mean even I think I even want to, even though
that is a very important message, and yes, clock that

(49:13):
I even want to take like five steps back and
just say, if you see someone enjoying something, let them
have that. Why do you have to Why do you
have to input the why you didn't like the thing
they like to the conversation. That's never been fun, It's
never been cool. And people didn't do that back in
the day because people wouldn't talk to you. But now
you have a platform where you can just insert your

(49:33):
voice and you know, and and and disappear into the
night behind your anime avatar. It's like if someone's enjoying something,
and there's tons of things that people enjoy that I
do not care for, or there are tons of people
and music rappers, you know, artists that people love and

(49:54):
I do not for the like of me half of
a smidgeon, And you know what I do, I just
keep scrolling pushing because I followed too many anime boobs
to be wasting time. I'm going with some money on Twitter,
I do want to say, um, one of these reviews
said that it was to woke. On that note, Joel

(50:17):
too woke, Joel, where can everyone catch you? Yeah? Follow
me over at Twitter at Joel Monique because we find
all of the things A V club, TV club or
I hopefully we're revealing a couple more shows coming up.
I really love that community. So if you want a
twin in the conversation, we'd love to have you. And finally,
in the next magazine on Got Guys, uh Cultured Magazine,

(50:38):
the cover issue it's gonna be um Lena Wait and
Melina Metsukas. I got to sit down with both of
them and talk about their new movie, which we will
be talking about for literally ever. It's so good. It's
called Queen and Slim. It comes out November sixteenth. I
think check your local listings by a ticket, be the first.
Don't wait a second weekend or the ending will be

(50:59):
spoiled for you. I'm at miss Danny Fernandez and just
another heads up, I have that Fathom event. If you
love the Twilight Zone I think they're showing four of
the original Twilight Zone episodes. It's November four at local theaters,
so check it out. I think you can just google
Fathom event twilight Zone and I pop up to talk
a little bit about Rod Serlin before it starts and

(51:21):
or in between the episodes. I don't know, you're one
of those things and you know me, uh next, or
you're listening to this. So this weekend, if you're in St. Louis,
me and those guys and white women will be at
the Flyover Comedy Fest doing some improv. And after that,
I'm probably gonna be eating some barbecue. So catch me

(51:41):
at a barbecue spot munching down or on stage, whatever
have you. I mean, look, we'll have to discuss because
I'm back on ketos, no sauce on it. I gotta
I gotta eat it dry. God, Like we always say,
stay nerdy, stay too woke.