Episode 98: Dwayne McDuffie

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Oh all right, after BONTI, welcome to Nerdificent. How you doing,
I'm your host if you wadway, And sitting across from
me in the place of miss Danny fer Nandez, who
has important things to handle, is Joel Monique, producer at
I Heart and writer whose work has been featured in
The Hollywood Reporter, The A V Club, and Vulture. Yes,

(00:36):
Dan on the booth, appreciate you. Uh yeah, nobody can
replace Danny, but I'm here to fill the space that
she sometimes occupies. And uh yeah, I'm excited because it's
a really good topic. I might cry today. Warnings Okay.
I also like that you gave us the step mom speech, like,
I'm not here to replace your mom. Just you know,

(01:00):
think of me as an extra mom, you know when
you get two moms. No, I'm not good, but you
know I'll tell you what. But like, like, no actual guy,
just breaking, I'll pick you up in your drunk I'll
tell your father. It'll be okay. I'm I'm the cool one.
I'm only five years anyway. Oh, that other voice you

(01:23):
here is Johnny Parker, writer of The black Man's Guy
to get him pulled over, die cute and e Walks
are better than Hobbits. How you doing? I am good?
I would get at what up to everybody? Good to
be here, Thanks for having me on. Yeah, I know
that it almost took a dark turn, but I pulled
this back. Yeah, you know, it's just we're gathered here

(01:45):
today to talk about I would argue one of the
most influential, UH black creators in the comic industry. You know,
he's definitely I think it's like one of those things
that where I think if he was alive today, he'd
be like getting them McFarlane maybe even those Jeff John

(02:06):
checks right now. If he were alive today, I would
bet money that despite many of the issues he had
with DC, given his track record of improving elevating a
lot of their work, DC would have called him in
like around Justice League to be like, yo, bro, bro, bro,
We're sorry about the past, but like he would have
passed on this script because even if they didn't call

(02:26):
him then, they definitely would have called him. After the
Black Panther weekend, They're like, we need you, it's time
come out. We could be ready for you know, they
like that moles Morale's kid. Maybe it's time for Static
to get his shot. I don't know, we just need
you here in an alternate university somewhere, still kicking at
Oh yeah, Well before we jump into it, the way

(02:48):
we like to start our episodes here, uh, is by
talking about what we're geeking out about this week. So
I'll let you start off, Johnny, what are you geeking
out about? Okay, first time here? Yeah, of course there's
no limit out alright, Michelle, So our first thing is
the world my my Heroes Academia Heroes Rising premiere, like
so yeah, planning, so I got to go check that out.

(03:09):
That was like really doping everything like that. And honestly
the party when I was just geeking out about us
because we like talk abou Daye McDuffie talk about like
representation with the culture, it was just so proud to
see like so many people of color there who are
into like anime and what not, who have like push
the grown on Ford and whatnot. Like it was dope
by like I was like standing in line. It's to
King Vader, so I'm marking the whole crew from RDC
one World and everything like that. Hosted the event, well yeah,

(03:31):
there you go, and then also saw your co host
there as well. Yeah, so it was just really dope
to see, like, you know, like this little genre that
was like we trade VHS tapes back in the day,
and the night is everything to catch up. Now I's
blew up to this level and like all these people
of color that are pushing the genre four too. It's
so dope to see. And then, um, second thing I'm
getting out about hard right now is I'm not sure
wrestling fans here. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going
crazy for Bianca Bella right now. Oh my god, yesterday,

(03:55):
I don't know jack about wrestling, but she comes up
in my timeline enough that I'm like, look at this
bitch work. Oh no, she's so hot right out. She's
given the business to like all the level of female
wrestle right now, go up to Charlotte, like you don't
even go here. And then the last paper of view,
she literally came out a robe. They said, I'm Black
history in the making. Yeah, and she's just amazing somebody level.
So I just want to say, like props to her.

(04:16):
She's giving me like more about female wrestling and what
they're doing it just herself. So I'm excited where she's
going yeah, yeah, Now that's that's the one thing I
was talking about where it's like she is killing in
then next T she's holding it down. And the biggest
problem is that all the women wrestlers that get bumped
up to w w uh E the main roster, it
just they it always fizzles out because they only play.

(04:38):
They only get one match of night, so you have
one match of night and and so there's only so
many stories you can tell someone. Just let her thrive
in then x T, because y'all did Oscar dirty Oscar?
She she was so great and y'all just let that
heat fizzle. So I don't want to see any more
of my faiths have their heat fizzle. So let I'll

(04:59):
let her thrive. I'm only with you because like with
cars ain't one up. I was like, cars ain't she's
a party, She's gonna find one piece, let's go. And
then all of a a sudden was like, y'all are you
doing nothing with her? It's kind of like you say,
because like sadly enoughhen they go to me Rosh, they
get one match and every single match is about Becky
or Charlotte and Sasha or Bailey. So I give a
lot of the other women get plushed back, which is
disappointed to see. So I agree with you, Like n

(05:19):
XT is definitely like place where to thrive right now. Yeah,
I'm living it. Uh what about you, Joe? What are
you geeking out about this week? Um? Every year that
HBO releases West World, I'm like, I'm not gonna watch
because it's not gonna hold it to the original, or
it's not gonna be that's good, or or the ending
was kind of dumb and I hated it, but the
new trailers look so good. It's just can't get over it.

(05:45):
I am a sucker and I'm gonna watch this season. Uh.
Also getting out over the Batman, which is threatening to
tell the Batman story I've always wanted to watch in theaters,
which is an actual detective story, and the costume is
so awesome and he uses parts of the gun that
killed his parents as a bad symbol. Listen, it's gonna
be so dark and metal, but in a way that

(06:07):
isn't um purposely dark And wait, how do you so?
Sometimes I think try hard? Yeah, sometimes dark is like
it's murder and we're just sad and angry. Uh, this
is darker than like there's some dark things happening in
the world. We're gonna dress it starting with gun violence,
which is exactly where you should start with Batman. Oh god,
I'm so excited. It looks really good. I hope it's

(06:29):
as good as it looks. Oh man, that's dis ope.
What I'm seeking out about this week is, you know,
it's it's hard to pinpoint one. I will, but I
will say before I pinpoint one, i'd say anime in general.
My friend Lisa just got me real deep back into
anime because it was that thing where I think I

(06:50):
talked about it on the pod where I just felt
like I was so behind, and she posted, uh, just
like one of the like scene screens where you show
like multiple pictures of a scene um in Banana Fish,
and it was so interesting. I was like, what is
this anime I need to see? When I like just
binge through And then next thing, you know, I was like, Okay,

(07:11):
what's the new hotness boom? And then I caught up
on my hero I'm still like, I'm still on the
season four. I'm not full all the way caught up,
but I'm in the current season with the with the
girls as they say, um but uh, also like I
finished Mob Psycho and then I went back. Yeah, I

(07:31):
went back and rewatch Android Kei Kaier the animation, which
is just a depressing slow anime, but it's done in
that like Astro Boy Cyborgs zero zero nine style, which
is very interesting to look the transformation scenes hold up.
So anyway, uh, I definitely wanna shout out her for
getting me back into darkness, like I welcome back. Yeah,

(07:53):
I went, I went back. I went to lunch all
my last job and on launch, I picked up a
Gundam and like cow pico and Japanese snacks, and I
was like, oh here we oh so we're back to
dirty wee biffy. This is fully back in my roots.
But yeah, she has a podcast It's called Kawaii five.
Oh if you don't hear her talk, but yeah, the

(08:14):
current one I'm watching and the one geeking out about
his Black Lagoon, which going back and watching it, it's
been fun to see like good representation of black people
and like, like I pointed, I'd said it on Twitter,
Cyborg zero O nine the like newer run looks good,
the older run is tragic, is very tragic. I'd say

(08:38):
I was like if I didn't, if I saw that,
I probably would have skipped the whole joint. But the
new one that got this brother. Because I was I
was already like, oh, they over here breaking stereotypes. This
is the brother that his power is swimming. And then
and then I went back and saw the old joint,
I was like, oh, no, why do that, So just
stick to the newer animated Loki. When I saw you

(08:59):
both that picture, I was like, Oh they had Drew Hill.
Good job. It was like, oh, my gosh, all right,
that Cisco seems like the perfect segue to talk about
Dwayne to leaders in our community down uh. Dwayne McDuffie

(09:20):
was born in nineteen sixty two and who we unfortunately
lost in two thousand eleven, was keenly aware at a
very young age that heroic protagonist who looked even remotely
like him were nowhere to be found in comic books
that he loved to read. Ethnically diverse characters were not
only woefully underrepresented, but grossly inauthentic uh And profoundly inspired

(09:41):
by seeing himself reflected in media as a hero for
the first time via the Black Panther, young Dwayne grew
up to become the pioneer of diversity in both mainstream
comic book and animation industries UH and animation industries encouraging
UH and creating widely inclusive cultural variety with contemporary, non
stereotypical care to represent the hero and all of us,

(10:02):
which is that I wanted to read that verbatim because
I think that's gonna be like the theme of the
whole episode. But before we even jump into it, I'm
curious about what everyone's first experience with Duffy was did do?
It was Static Shock, which was the first animated cartoon
he did. UH. And of course, as a young kid

(10:23):
who was like really into Batman, the animated series, I
was like, Oh, they're making a black one, Like, let's
check it out. UH. If you follow me on anything,
you know that. I didn't discover comic books were still
a real thing until I got to college, because the
lesbians of the bookstore where I shopped as a kid
were like, come read the classics, don't bother with any
of those old comic book things. So my comic book
experience was very strictly limited to television animated series specifically UM,

(10:47):
and I was just bowled over by the fact that
they're here. Was like a kid who kind of looked
like me, who had superpowers, who got to like fight
alongside Batman like whoa, and but also like avoided almost
any story type, like he skateboarded, which people were like,
that's not a black thing. It's totally a black thing.
Green Campbell put some respect on his name. Uh like

(11:08):
the fact that he you know, had parents that were
both there and both loved him, and he didn't have
like a lot of tragedy going around. Uh, there's everything
to love about Static, but most specifically the hair. Oh yeah,
I do I want to rewind and do a quick
Black History Month moment about Kareem Campbell because I think,
uh yeah, I can't just mention his name for those

(11:29):
Green Campbell was one of the first black skaters I saw,
and he was kind of generally one of the first
black mainstream skaters. And the story behind him, uh that
you know, I was I heard and I was like, oh,
this is an interesting and important story and it actually
we'ves right in to what we're going to talk about today.
Is the fact that like when he was first making

(11:50):
skate videos and all that he was doing this, you know,
using the same rock songs that everyone was using, using
the same you know this and what he was just
kind of like trying to a similar late and get
in that way. And then it wasn' until one day
his own was like that's not you though, like you
you know you you you like hip hop, you like this,
you know. And then the moment he just started dressing

(12:11):
like he dressed big baggy clothes using hip hop in
his videos, that's when he stood out. And that's when
like he just kind of blew up from there because
no one was doing that, you know. Skateboard was still
kind of on that punk rock, surf rock kind of wave.
So now when you add this like hip hop, which
you know, I'm gonna it's Black History Month, so I'll
say this and not care. Much cooler than those of

(12:35):
those music genres, the much cool the style, the subculture,
everything about it. It's much cooler. So it was It's
so funny because we're so afraid to just be ourselves
because when you're in like white dominated spaces, you're like, well,
I just got to do the thing, y'all do it,
and then you bring like your flavor to and they're like, no,
that I like the season and that you put on this.

(12:55):
This is nice said that, because it also kind of
shows like how like because we're both in the kers
off the street culture go because he really gets sneakers
and skate instrey. Now like Supreme and all these things,
it's totally still that hip hop influence. Like all that
stuff that he probably brought into it, he's still existing today.
So in a way, by him being himself, he helped
change the general change of culture, which is a lot
of time what like African Americans do. It's that when

(13:16):
we put our stamp on it, we put our stamp
on it, and it usually stays yeah, well that And
that's what's so interesting because being of that skate culture
and coming in with Kareem, you know you have like
Chocolate Girl, but then you had d g K dirty
ghetto kids coming in and like all those like brands
that are truly like nah, we were gonna be the
black band. You had Zoo York, you know like that,
and it just really like it really is h It

(13:39):
made it better because like you still have like those
brands that still do the punk rock type stuff, but
it's just there's more diversity within it. For just the
average consumer. Yeah, so it just helps to put your
voice that's dope and thinking about it, like if he
doesn't do that, do we get tired of the creator? Yeah,
because if he by him seeing like the hip hop
and his own president there him reflected in that, he's like, oh,

(14:00):
I want to skate. I want to do these things too,
which least again the whole crew and odd future and
everything like that. So it's like if that doesn't happen,
then maybe we don't get these things later wrong. So
that's super dough. Yeah, there's there's a whole lot of
what ifs I have with Tyler, Like what if Tyler's
Nigerian dad was around, maybe he would have gone to
the meetings that my dad is not. Me and Tyler
would become homies and I would have been in our future.
Like that's what I think about. I think about that

(14:24):
right now. Yeah, I would have been the Frank Ocean
and then the old dude just like yeah, yeah, Nigerian brother,
let's go. Oh, So I guess for me, Um, how
are you guys supposed to? Dayne was very so much
of yours, but it's actually the comics. So I remember
my best friend back when I was like high school whatever.
He was in Falster care and sadly enough he had

(14:45):
to it. It's like Falster parents whatever. And they were like,
we're gonna throw out our comic books and he's like,
the damn you will. He called me really quickly. It
was like the trying to throw in my comics. I
was like, got you dad, to try to do those
comics we wanted. We like drove to us house picked
up his comics like when everything cool, come to your books.
So we drive out to my crib. He's like, yo,
read them, exploring whatever. And he had been in the
comics like way longer than me. So when I get

(15:06):
back whatever and flipped, it was like, oh you got this,
you got this, got static, he guess this. And I
just started reading and I'm like, oh snap. They starts
blowing me away and I read like through the whole
run and then I'm reading Bloods and Naked and Hardware
an Icon. It's like all blows me away, and it
was crazy. It's like I've always been a fan of comics,
like I've always levet comics and animation or whatnot. But
when I used to create, like you know, my own characters.

(15:26):
As a kid growing up, it was also always so
hard to create cares of color. Everybody can I'm out white.
But the moment I read Static, I was like, oh snap,
I see myself. I can do this. And that's when
I start coming my boom, my black characters, my Latino characters,
and started like creating this like diverse array things. So
thank you Dwayne because he inspired that in me, because
if they didn't do that, then I would have the
books i'm making now. Yes, of all, you're an amazing friend.

(15:47):
So that is amazing that your dad was like, yes,
and go right now, preserve these comic books. Stunning. Yeah,
I mean that. That's kind of like it's funny that
you said, like seeing that change how you view it,
because it is funny how your art starts with what
you liked. When I was really in a drawing, all
my guys had spiky hair, buff body, spiky hair, buff bodies,

(16:10):
and then Static came around and then they had the
trunk style hair but with dreads, and I was like,
that was the shift when I was like, oh, yeah, no,
now I'm still gonna do the DVZ thing, but they're
gonna have dreads now I remember I was watching teenage
music Turtles of course, and then I was also watching
Bionic six. So who was my first year character, the
Bionic Ninja. I'm so original. Everyone's gonna want to buy this.

(16:36):
And it's like, but yeah, that's what happens. Though. You
get influenced by what you see and like kind of say,
that's why representation is so important, because when you see
it in front of you, that's what allows you to
see yourself in it and take it to the next level. Yeah,
And it's so funny because like you do get the
pushback on like it should matter and this that and whatever.
It was like, yeah, yeah, you say that, But I
just can't wait for years down when diversity is normalized
in the heads of everyone because they see it like

(16:58):
you're bucking against it because you're so used to these
like all white things and you've never had a problem
with it because you've seen yourself within it, you know,
versus like and and that's the thing is like, honestly, like,
no one will have a problem with an all white cast.
It's just let's mix it up. If if you had,

(17:20):
if you had, like if we if we went through
the year and all and every month you had a
black panther you had, Uh what was that? Like, I'm
trying to think of like a good like Latin X
representation of crazy rich Asians, um spider Man, Miles Morales,

(17:41):
Spider Man, just like representation across the board and your
little women's and you're whatever. I love them, They're my
favorite directors, but I'm definitely going to say they've been
scared of black people since Lady Killers, the Coen Brothers,
you know, like like like we we love those directors.
It's just like we just want something different every now
and then. Just give us alue Wing every once in a

(18:03):
a home exactly make my movies. Give her some cash.
Like I always kind of thought about that because like, well,
Scorsesey got nobody for The Irishman, and I was like,
oh that's cool. I was like, bro, you always making
these gangster films, but like would it, why don't you
just do like Scorsesey, I'm gonna a remakeup New Jack
City and it is like just kind of run with however,
like I want to tell the story of like Frank
White in My Way and everything like that. Such mixed

(18:23):
feelings about that because scorsese is an old white man,
like he real old, and I just worry if you
can handle the material. And so my my thing is
if you want to stay in your lane and you
don't want to venture out, I'm totally fine with that.
To me. It's not the attacking the individual creator isn't
necessarily going to bring about good representations. I want to
hit up the studio and be like, so, I know

(18:43):
y'all are getting pitches from a lot of people who
are quality and who could make good stuff that make
you money, and the fact that you guys just keep
turning them down so fresh or ruining their picking them
up and then subsequently ruining the project with your like
incredibly white notes. But I don't understand this. We have
to explain it to you. Our audience will get Jesus. So, yeah,
I feel like there's there's a lot of space for

(19:04):
you know, major corporations to maybe do their Yeah, And
I think that's what it is. And I think that's
that's what it really is, is that no one's trying
to take your thing away to make room. Like there's
this idea, this weird idea that in order to diversify
things will be taking money like I think normal consumers
don't realize how much money just like I I don't

(19:27):
think consumers realize how many movies are just made that
you never see, Like like there are movies that are made,
they're in festivals, millions of dollars went into it, and
you just never see it because it just didn't pop
the way they liked. Shout out for creating array and
being like I'll just release them myself exactly because like it,
that's just how stuff. So it's in like every year

(19:48):
we add thousands more things to see, so there's not
a there isn't this struggle for space in the medium
for people to see things. So I think there's no
one should genuinely have a problem with diversity because it
doesn't affect your thing if you choose not to watch it.
Not only but not only that though, but it's like people,

(20:10):
it's weird. Just in today's world, diversity is like so
profitable as well. You think about like the number one
franchise right now, that's damn they're on nine movies. Is
fast and furious and it has an amazing diverse cast.
Will play in every single country exactly. Everybody will go
and see it, and like it was crazy as he
will kind of realized that because when he did um
Beven Diesel Triple X, Return of Xandraw Cage, which is like,

(20:32):
that's a movie. The other thing about this though, that
he would he do. He did the exact same for me.
He doing Fast Furious. He brought in all these international
stars and so here in America, I think it made
like a hundred and fifty million whatever, but worldwide like
over three or something million, So he made his budget
back and then something. And so it just shows that
the power of diversity, because like when people see themselves,
they will go spend those dollars on that people. People
sleep on my man Ven, but then be making moves.

(20:55):
My man, Mr Diesel, watch out for him. He's such
in real life. I know. That's why I loved everything
about so. Uh, you know, we're gonna take a quick
break while y'all still on that info we just dropped
for y'all, But when we get back, we'll be talking
about Dwayne's younger years, the Marvel years, all the way

(21:16):
to d C and Milestone and all that good stuff.
After these messages and we're back here, yeah, yeah, so
you know, I'm I'm here with Johnny Parker, Joel Monique

(21:38):
and where she talking about Dwayne McDuffie, his legacy and
just everything around it. I think that's one thing just
in case, because I noticed we did that with the
static thing, and that's something I didn't like. I saw
it happening, and I didn't want to stop because I
think that was the spirit of these episodes, is, uh,
you know, these episodes are you know, about black history
Black History Month? So I'm not you know, if we

(22:00):
bounce off of the subject and start talking about black history,
black culture in general, that's kind of the spirit of
the episode. So and if you're if you're paying attention,
we're still dropping some some knowledge. And I mean, I
think if you think about doing McDuffie specifically, in his
entire goal in comics was for us to be able
to have these conversations, but even further than that, Like gosh,

(22:22):
there's so many times I wish like McDuffie were here
because the circles that we run in, we would have
met him so many times over already, Like I'm for
sure positive I would have some kind of connected relationship
with McDuffie, and like we didn't get a chance to
tell to you, like, yo, you put me onto comics
in a way that was like it wasn't available to me.
And then here's like him tell stories of his childhood

(22:45):
and things that really drove him to like, you know,
you guys are anime fans. We've seen some very racist
representations of black people. Oh gosh, we name dropping. Uh,
it's it was. It was a challenge previous lead to
to see representations of yourself that weren't gangsters and comics
that weren't um dumb and uneducated, but they were beefy

(23:09):
so they could fight, so totally worth it that weren't
strictly just sex objects. A lot of time for women. Um,
and we definitely really changed the game. And he did
it like from the inside, which I think is like
crazy impressive, Like the guy had no fear of just
being like laying it all out there and being like, no,
y'all are part of the problem, and I'm not gonna
stand here and just let that continue. Yellow to see

(23:32):
it right up. Actually they get the meat. Oh my god, Okay,
please tell us all about it. So I moved out
to l A back in two thousand and six to
teach and write comics and everything like that. And so
back when you was the world l a um, they
still had a round. I remember looking at the guesses,
Who's going there that year? I was like anyway, wait

(23:54):
and I was like, Okay, I gotta go. I gotta
go meet this man or whatever. So it was so dope,
I gotta go here, umuce, we get a panels, we
got some of the things he was doing. I think
at that time he was just finishing a firestorm in tradition,
going to his next project. And then he goes after
the panel and I get a chance to go up
to him. I was like, yeah, I just wanna say
thank you for all you've done, Like I'm from Detroit,
You're from Detroit, You with you mind, with you of him,
and like I didn't know I was follow your foots
sets for so long. Thank you first pad to make

(24:14):
my comics everything I do. He's like, thank you, appreciate it, um,
and he gave me like a cut, precise copy like
static shock, and he just always carries this back. Are
you seriously? Boom boom cool? Thank you Dwayne. And then
it was just so dumb because after that we gotta
chop it up a little bit like that. Like what
was really dope is, um, if anybody's just proves from Detroit,
you know, and um, the center of the city, we

(24:35):
have a Joe Louis fist. It's like this like giant
thing or whatever. Right, So the current Firestorm was based
in Detroit, so he wanted to do this like final
storyline where it's like fire Storms gonna face up against
dark Side. He was gonna charge up the fist and
they hit dark Side with it, and he was like
it was gonna be dope. But he was like the
anturtles told me no, and we don't do those things.
I was like, okay, fine, but um but no. He

(24:55):
was super cool, super personal, like one of the nicest people.
Conversated with me for like almost like twenty thirty minutes,
and I was like it was awesome. It was cool.
Then oh my god, he loved her hero was actually
like good, yeah in real life, you know that that
warms my heart. Thank you so much. Oh man. Oh well,
So for his younger years, he said that he read

(25:18):
comic books casually like most kids did in the seventies,
was a big fan of Spider Man, Fantastic four. Uh,
he just never met anyone who was anything like like
the black characters that existed in comics. Blacks and comics
and many, many years were drawn as subhuman. The Spirit,
which is a relatively realistically drawn comic Ebony White, could
have been a Grimlin. I'm not sure amount of reader

(25:40):
would understand that he was human. Uh, if you've ever
seen the Spirit, he's like a great kind of like
Goblin esque sidekick. He's just meant to be like a
black man. Yeah. And it's you're looking at you're like,
what the hell? Yeah, I'm gonna take it a second.
I gotta look at this. Oh yeah, oh no, oh no,

(26:03):
it's very any style with the pink like overly round lips. Yeah.
And this cover that we're looking at, he has uh
two fives and he's licking his lips. He got some
cash now watch out. Oh my gosh. Yeah this is yeah,
this is that was what you had. That was what
you could look forward to if you were reading comics. Yeah,

(26:24):
this was yeah. Yeah. If you look side by side,
it looks like two different art styles. Yeah. That's and
it's funny because like that they the energy of that, uh,
the energy of of that just shows how kind of
flippant racism was at the time where it's like like
because too. To them, it was like, oh, this is funny,

(26:45):
this is funny heat to have this character and and
to put you know, this person in here and have
him next to this like attractive tall white man's you know,
you got your white voice if he so that's so
it's very um, it's very like it is like if

(27:08):
you're growing up with that, you definitely want to fight that. Yeah. Well,
and I think it's disheartening to constantly be seeing yourself
as that. Like I mean, listen on the playground when
you were trying to figure out like who you were
going to be in a group, Like listen, the girls
were doing Spice Girls and they're like, you are scary
Spice And I was like, I'm not participating now because
I don't look scary spicies a national treasure, but because

(27:30):
I understood what was happening at that moment, which is
you're black and we don't really care about your personality
outside of that, and we're going to show you in
this character. And so if you're a comic book fan
and you're gonna be the black character, like if you're
gonna be whitey, like in the hell out of here.
I don't understand. Uh, I don't understand how it happened.
There was nobody there to check them on it. Uh,
this is what constituted is humor and is uh they

(27:52):
were like, no, it's inclusive. There's a black person in there. Look.
And it's funny because it's like it really is like vy.
It's just how it kind of carries over is like
that that is the same design that we got of
the sixties version of uh cyborgs zeros or eight, which
was the black Cyborg. And it really is crazy how

(28:14):
like the power of like just this racist connotation being
carried over and uh and and used. And it's interesting
because you know, it's often often tried to uh used
to defend it where it's like, oh, they didn't know
in all this, but it's like you knew. And the
main problem too, is that like it goes back to

(28:35):
like who were in those offices there, because again that's
where like the racism not employing people of coloring those
offices really comes to the play. Because even the nineties,
when you look at Marvel, every black man that they
drew had exact same look. It was like a brother
like Brave with the high top every single time, like
if Luke Cage and Blaze stood side by side black
wait which is which? And so the thing about it
is those that like But when you start hiding people
of color the work in these officers, that's when you

(28:56):
start getting interesting character designs. You start seeing like different
hairstyles and those lives actually representing those books. Now seventies
get up to like the early to mid nineties, he
was still rock and disco like way past when it
was popular or like stylish. It makes no sense, Well
you only have one black acquaintance, what other what other

(29:16):
you know samples because they ain't they ain't going down
to the hood. They ain't going down to black neighborhood.
So you have to think about It's funny because, like
I think, the wildest thing about racism and why, like
you know, the word systematic gets thrown around, is there's
so many little things that can happen that makes it

(29:38):
happened that you unintentionally, like I could like we like
if someone came and was like if he I worked
in Marvel and nineties and no one there, I promise
you I spoke to him on no one there was racist.
I could I'd still like I could believe that and
still believe that this this happened. Why Because simply just

(30:01):
not being racist doesn't like protect you from not being racist.
Like you could go your whole life being like I
I respect black people. I will never say the in word.
But if you're not aware of the microaggressions and things
that affect them, then you are walking through life with
a blind side. You don't you don't know things you

(30:21):
can accidentally do. I mean, it's the same thing of like,
because people always try and like make it seem like
such a complex race thing, where I was like, why
does it matter if you touch your head or why
does like micro aggressions don't matter. But it's the same
thing of if your mom has died, If your mom
has died, I don't know your mom died. We out
joking and I say your mama. That's gonna hit you

(30:42):
way differently than if I say someone that started so
many fights back when I was growing up, all because
it's like an unseen fact about this person that they've
lost their parents, so anything said about said parents hurts more.
That's the exact same thing when it comes to race
is there. There are things that have affected people of
color in different ways. That's the you know, that's why

(31:05):
you can't have a black person with monkey on the
t for your h and image. Like we get, we
know that that's not what you mean. But if you
are refusing to look at the history, the widely sold
comic book that were that, where you can google and
see the animals that too, that portray us, the look
that they're going for is a monkey like like it

(31:27):
looks weird. We're saying gremlin, we're saying pick in any
but they're making they they try because it's historically a
thing that has happened. So you're not you're not a racist.
But if you accidentally label someone you did a racist thing,
and that's fine. Everyone will make mistakes. Instead of trying
to fight for over a label that isn't being labeled

(31:50):
on you, we're labeling the action. Fix the action. Stop
defending yourself, because we never defense is what starts making
you a racist. Just I mean, no, it's fine, Well
it's not fine. It's it's the simple thing of like
I think, I think, if we're being honest, we've all
been black a while, we've all been to my life. Well,

(32:17):
and we've all been online a while and now, you know,
conversations online are getting more progressive, like are like, it's funny,
you know, we got lines of people wearing their woecats.
But I remember when tray Von happened and I had
to convince people that it wasn't an isolated incident. You know, yeah,
like we so so we've come a long way in

(32:38):
conversations about race, but there is this genuine fear everyone.
It's so funny because like there I think we're at
a point where people are more afraid of being called
racist than being racist, because you're afraid of like your
image and it's like, it's not about that. But then
you know, this would be a longer conversation because we

(32:59):
do there are we you have technology the other side
that is for some reason about that where they want
to take a small piece of information run with it,
and you know, there's all different But I think at
the end of the day, everyone should just listen more.
It absolutely be more helpful. I think I feel like

(33:21):
that's McDuffie tried to do that a lot throughout his career.
A skip forward to the teenage Negro Ninja thrashers. Uh.
Portion of our segment today, which is sort of one
of the most iconic things that McDuffie has done in
his career, which is he's worked at both of the
Big two. He started off at Marvel. He was an
assistant to the editor Bob who dance key but Dansky. Um.

(33:46):
They like worked on these super epic cards as real
circle back to in a minute. Um, that sort of
started the Marvel card catalog. Um. He worked on a
lot of things like the Damage Control comic books, which
again we'll circle back to because they're incredible. But he
was also not a silent black man. He wasn't there
to get along. He was there to make the kind
of comics he wanted to see as a kid. So

(34:08):
on December thirteenth, nineteen eighty nine, when Joel was two
months old, Uh, crazy, guys, time is weird. Um, he
wrote this letter. I'm gonna do a dramatic interpretation of it.
In the past year of all African American superheroes appearing
in the Marvel universe possessed skateboard based superpowers and attempt

(34:30):
to remain on the cutting edge of comics, I hereby
propose a new series that will fully exploit this existing
new trend. Teenage Negro Ninja Thrashers. When a group of
teenage negroes fine comic powers skateboards, their lives are forever changed.
A team of distinct characters joined together, swerving, swearing an

(34:50):
oath to use their powers for good. The characters are
Rocket Racer, a black guy on a skateboard, Nightmare Thrasher,
a black guy on a skateboard, and dark really black
guy on a skateboard, and their leader, the mysterious black
guy on a skateboard. Not only as that mysterious black

(35:11):
guy on a skateboard, this is a surefire hit as
it contains all of these popular elements CIRCA nine clothing
and hairstyle, bizarre speech patterns unrecognizable by any member of
any culture on this planet. A smart white friend to
help them out of trouble. Their heroes, their heroes who
could be you if you were a black I mean,

(35:32):
they're on skateboards. They have an attractive white female friend
to calm them down when they get too excited. Face it, Pilgrim,
that one's got it all? Have I made my point?
Can you imagine sending this to your boss? I mean
We were talking about this a bit with the Milestone
eraw and it's the one of that the beautiful comfortable

(35:55):
place that you could be in as a black creative
when you realize you have marked your place in your
in your like undeniability and you know, like like these
are all power moves. Like he knows he's at the
top of his game at the time. He he like

(36:16):
he probably still was like I'm I'm walking the line here,
but he also knew they have a big, gigantic, uh
you know, competition that he can just go over that
will scoop him up for a second because you know,
so like it is interesting because they're the power of
a person of color. With power, U allows you to

(36:37):
make change and it's and it's and he gets to
it's funny because in a way this is the nicer
version because he could have just straight and be like, look,
this is a problem. This is why it's a problem.
But he was like, oh, I will make them laugh
with this, like funny you know, pitch but kind of
like make a point about it. It was interating as

(36:59):
well as you say that about how he's like standing
up and everything and like he has an opportunity to
other swater. So he's like confident himself. But it's also
crazy because he has this like as he does this,
he's doing it because it's the right thing to do.
Like he's taking a stand because sometimes you have to
take a stand. You have to take risks because if
you don't do it, we don't get changed, and it
might become because I'm not sure you guys know this,
but like after he finished as an English major, he

(37:20):
actually became a physicist and went there for grad school.
But one of the things that happened when he was
in grad school he discovered that some of the technology
had to research and developed was being used in patriot
messals against without his permission, and so he had no idea.
But when he found this out, he became dishired, and
that's what made him go to New York and start
studying film and everything like that. But it just kind
of goes to that point he's just like like no,
like we can't just allow ourselves to be by standards
in this process. Is we have to take a stand.

(37:42):
And that's something he's always like stood behind, which just
makes him so admirable. I mean, this also sounds like
a black person who's been were here around white people
for a long time and it's tired, um, because it's
as gentle as it is. Imagine you've been writing one
of the black superheroes on skateboard comic books. Like that
is a slap in the face. Like it's very like

(38:04):
up front and also sort of almost reads like like
either change it or I'm leaving sort of vibe to
it because like and also the vibe of like, I've
said this before many times in many separate ways, and
I cannot make it any more clear than the statement
right here. It's such a ballsy move. And I wish
we had more of his own direct quote on like

(38:25):
that experience and what it was like, um, because I
think it must have been. I imagine it to be
somewhat frightening and also liberating at the same time. Definitely
just do it and doing it. And it's it's interesting
too because I do wonder about like the culture at
Marvel around this time, because after a video that I
think you shared of Stanley with Todd McFarlane and Rob

(38:49):
Life felt drawing and Stanley hated guys. It's the most
epic video, Like if you ever see an old person
take down a young person, just verbally, and it's it's
so eat in the Stanley way. I've been meaning to
talk to you guys about these feet. What are you drawing?
These weird little feet on these giant bodies. I think
it takes you longer to write your signature than it

(39:09):
takes you to draw this comic book page. Stanley is vicious,
so good, But yeah, it was. It does not seem
like a great uh cozy comforting like they were. They
were they were their box and every every day. Stanley
had left in the seventies to start the Hollywood portion
of Marvel out of New York. And then if we

(39:32):
consider the comic Boom fail in the nineties, man, yeah,
it's it's got to be a lot because it's a
lot of changeover in who's running the company, in the
direction of the company, and the fact that okay, so
now we're allocating resources to TV. Comics have always had
sort of a competitive nature with moving pictures, as it were.

(39:53):
It's an art formals and we gotta respect just the
comic book aspect of it. Yeah, yeah, this is right
for that said boom. But yeah, before we go forward,
I think, yeah, we should um talk about damage control
and the cards that he was working on. Yes, I
really liked the cards. I pulled a couple of samples

(40:15):
to look at. They have this one where it's a
nine card, Like if you collect these nine cards, they
form a bunch of different villains surrounding Galactus. And it
is so they're like very nineties and like the black
Star kind of background within like a ton of like
Neon colors up front, all the muscles on all of

(40:36):
the Euros, even the ladies are kind of bulked up
a little bit. Uh. It is like they're really beautiful cards.
And at this point McDuffie started this project, I want
to say, in eighty nine, he's working as an assistant. Um,
so they're not his designs, but he's helping curate, coordinate.
And it's these sort of put a huge landmark out
there for kids who maybe hadn't gotten into comics or

(40:58):
didn't know all the characters yet. It was a great
sort of launch platform for people to get into comics.
And I think that sort of speaks to McDuffie's entire
career has been sort of like opening a gate to
allow new people into comic books. Yeah, um yeah. And
then uh. Then after his kind of first major work
was the Damage Control comic you were talking about. What

(41:18):
was that about? Okay, So Damage Control is maybe one
of the most unique cool ideas to come out of
Marvel in this era, and it's the idea like, what
happens after a giant superhero battle. There's this huge mess
some it's gonna be someone's job to come and clean
this up. So Tony Stark and Wilson Fisk become partners
to create a new thing called Damage Control um the

(41:40):
US Department of Damage called the d d c UH.
And by partnering, if it's the villain's fault, were the
hero's fault, we can kind of bowl clean it up together,
which sort of makes a statement about comics, which is
this idea of like, oh, we don't need try to
stop fighting or it's gonna be forever, so we need
to figure out a way to work together to make
sure we don't have people to man at us about

(42:00):
the fact that we're fighting and destroying half of this intera.
So you get a ton of like man on the
ground quips, and it's I think this very much highlights
what McDuffie's gonna do later when he goes to d C.
And it's the idea of like not just superheroes, but
how are people impacted by superheroes and how does that
make this world different from the world we live in.

(42:20):
And it's so much more interesting, I think than just
like end of the World stuff. I've read maybe like
several hundred End of the World comic books. Almost every
movie is about like the heroes, don't do this, it's
the end of the world. It's too much, it's too dramatic.
We can't always be like that's life and death, and
that's a whole lot. And in between there there's a
ton of emotional beats that we're missing that are intriguing,

(42:42):
um that talk about like the real life things that
we as the reader the viewer are going through. And
you get all of that in Damage Control. And on
top of that, it's hilarious. It's amazing, Like the first
pay the first five issues when I firstart getting collecting comics,
and it's so good. Like one of the beats in it,
it's like the like you know, they're cleanup of supervillain
accent or whatever. It's a constructure on site. One of

(43:04):
the construction guys like finding a purple or but whatever
it picks up, he changes it like huge galactic being
or whatever. He's like, I must need leave now I
have a higher purpose. And the crew form is like, man,
that's the third guy this week. It's just what, Yeah,
that's just the beast of they all go through, and
like the second issue is like so dope because it's
either second or third or four this issue where it's
like the covers like Dr Doom and they counter it,

(43:25):
which is a black guy for him because includes a
diversity there. It's like, you're gonna pay off Doom. And
the whole thing is like the whole issues about him
going trying to get doomed to pay on a check
the heels damage control and it's just hilarious. It's like seriously,
but he don't care. He's like, doesn't care, he's a
digcare the case from like very he's like that man
gonna pay what he out. He goes out and you
know I'm gonna jump. So he does walle at d C.

(43:49):
But I think the biggest point of d C is Milestone.
And the reason I want to jump in Milestone is
I didn't know that bit about McDuffie and the Patriot
missile because that is so similar to the story of hardware.
So it's so it's so cool to know that that
was actually inspired by you know, because you know, it's

(44:09):
it's always don't win. Like you hear a track and
they're like, well, this is the events that inspired He's like,
I hear that. I hear that now, So can you
guys break down Hardware for fans that don't haven't read him. Yeah,
if you haven't read him, first, go to the Milestone
media episode. We break him down. But to say it again, uh,
so Hardware is essentially Milestone's Iron Man. He was he was,

(44:30):
you know, taken in by this white man who like
funded his schooling. Uh and and and he funded his schooling.
He was like this top engineer and now he's working
for this like huge like um tech company. But he
finds out that they're like making black market weapons. And
actually before he finds out out, he asked for a
piece of steak in the company. He's like, hey, I've

(44:51):
been working, I've been inventing all these things for you. Yeah,
maybe I get a piece of the pie. And he
was like, you were just a tool. I took you.
I I built you a sharp you. You You were just
a tool for me. You get nothing. You should be happy,
you should be thanking me. So then he angry, you know,
he starts getting resentful. He does them digging, finds out
they're making black market weapons, tries to go through the

(45:12):
proper means FBI and all this. They do nothing because
their hands are and everything. Then he becomes Hardware to
come stop them from using those uh inventions that he
made for weapons. That is incredible and I like the
idea that likely couldn't possibly have gone up against the
United States government to be like, take my technology at
your missiles. And so for him to be able to

(45:33):
put it in a comic book and share it with
the world and be like, the power of art is
like when you feel like weak and helpless, you create
this world in which you can handle that problem. You
know for sure it's crazy too those because well they
groups of the filers talk about it, but when Big
Deffite doeskin. They mentioned that Hardware also represents their struggle
with in the comedy Stree itself because its creators they

(45:55):
are creating these awesome like heroes or whatnot, but they
don't actually own a stake within the company, and so
when asked for it, they're told, no, you're getting paid
a salary, you getting paid a wage. This is UM.
You can't own any of this. So that kind of
sparks most people do Milestone Comics itself. So it's so
dope because within like hardware, there's this duality of like
both those allegories going on. Yeah, to do a multiple
episode pool for you, uh, if you're just tuning into

(46:18):
this for the first time. Yeah, we talked about that
in UM in the Milestone episodes. But also what we
talked about in the Milestone episodes is something we talked
about in our Image episode is Milestone was created after
Image Comics left, and if you don't know what happened,
Image Comics basically wanted that. They're like, Yo, we're making
these characters, y'all starting to do movies. We need a
piece of this company. They said no, They're like I

(46:40):
and yeah, this is what was. It was like Todd McFarlane, Uh,
Jim Um and one more who I always forget who
created savastrat Night. Yeah, and he that was like the
mount Rushmore of comics at the time. So that was
a huge hit. So then to have their other are
like stars come up and like, look, we're about to

(47:03):
do what they did because when they pitched, they brought
like all these stories they had, Like they didn't just
pitch like with thoughts and ideas, they had bibles. So
DC was like, well, we don't want another Image comics
because Image at this point probably was tearing them up
because Image was spot alone. Was Yeah, it was interesting.

(47:24):
DC made the right move. Because Greg Pulo talks about this.
He's artists on Court of Owls. He also do small
for a long time. Greg says he started at Marvel
during that time period, but Marvel wasn't happened none of that.
So they didn't want another situation where like all star
artists relieved whatever, So they did the opposite of DC.
They put people down, so they were promoting you. They
were putting you out there as much or whatever. So Greg,
you just just killed the artists as the hero or

(47:45):
the inspired exact nuts. So he felt that tension the air,
which he called shimile later on or whatever. Yeah, it
was like during that time period after that left, it
was like DC made the right play instead of was
trying to fight against it. Let's promoted from with them. Yeah, man,
that's that's it's so wild to just the politics that
go in because you know, when you think about it,
we just go in and buy the comics that are available.
We often forget that, like, you know, these are people

(48:07):
trying to make a living and all this, and it's
even harder now because buying as much comics. I think
it's also a great What worked out of the deal
is the fact that Like Milestone was then able to
integrate a lot of their characters into the d C. Cannon,
which for me as a kid was vital because I
definitely wouldn't have found Milestone on my own, and without that,
then I don't have Rocket, Who's instantly became a favorite

(48:30):
of the second I saw her, like oh is this love?
Like she got the shortcut, like wow, and it jumpsuit
ready to go, like Icon is amazing, like the Alien
who've been here forever and chooses to be presented as black,
like that will always be a writer tie for me.
Um And now when you know, of course the Wich
shows like Young Justice and Justice League and all of that,
we've been able to see some of our favorite characters

(48:52):
like Satic appear alongside like our favorite team heroes and
now they're just a part of that universe. Yeah, and
then really I'm excited to jump into DC animation, but
we're gonna do that right after these messages and we're back.

(49:14):
Are you're doing. We're talking Dwayne McDuffie, I have Johnny
Parker and Joel Monique. So before we get into DC animation, Uh,
you know, let's let's talk about some DC drama. You
had some DC drama. You you had the tea, You
had the tea, Let me pull out the cups. It
got so juicy, got so juicy. So pretty much as
Milestone is going along whatever, they making progress, having these

(49:36):
great sales, static Shock is embraced when he go awards
or whatever. So Dwayne and company are trying to like
push the envelope as far as doing authentic storytelling. So
for one issue, a static Shock is around the teams
like sixteen or somewhere around there. There's a cover which
has Static on the couch making out with his girlfriend.
Oh yeah, so pretty much it's like it's like it's
nothing like to or scared whatever. They both have their
clothes on, but they're like making out. And then there's

(49:56):
also some condoms nearby whatever, because they're gonna be intimate whatever. Oh.
The head of DC at this time shuts it down.
He's like, look, no, you can't do this. And then
Dwayne is like, no, we can't do this. We're our
own company. I'm that or in chieved. We need to
go and do this. He's like, not only that, yo,
but if we look in the history of comics, you've
had way more risque covers. Like there's a cover She's like,
I got all that stuff trolled off or whatever. It's

(50:16):
like it looks almost like a Playboy cover. So Dwayne's like,
we're doing something lay more tamed. That you're intimidated by this,
and he writes a letter to him is pretty much
saying like, um, because it's African American characters or whatnot,
and there's some racist behind this choice and whatnot. So
DC says, no, you're not doing it, um and give
the whole reason because news stands have quotes of Etiqueta
blah blah blah. So instead they do a close up

(50:37):
with them just kissing and put like a little heart
around it. But in the back Dwayne puts that editorial
where he could cause it all the reason why we
couldn't do this, And he doesn't quote for radim call
the head of DC at that time racist. He says
this was a racist act. And after that the head
of d C is like, oh no no. And then
ever since then they just had the solid relationship. So
they ended up having against Duyne steps down as editor

(50:58):
in chief. Then it's Talent takes over editor in chief.
But then then his coln's like, look, I'm done with this.
He leaves, go start like Bowtown comments or something like
that the other creator, and then Dwayne comes back in.
But at that point Dennis has left and it's never
been the same. Oh so that kind of was the
main kind of shaking things up in a possible do
you think about the times like this is what nine

(51:19):
four ninety five? Uh, the idea that like safe sex
was pretty aid society at this PLC because they had
the big condom Yeah when that album came out. Um,
so yeah, it's just over a box of condoms, bro.

(51:44):
Especially like you mentioned at the time, like people learning
about AIDS is actually practicing stef sex. Like if anything,
that's a really dope ad right there. Yeah, it's just
saying like okay, be intimate because you're going to do it,
but it's like be safe as you do it, and
it's like really smart, being authentic and again like the
only point out back. Then you compare it to like
any of those other characters they were putting on covers,
like half naked are usually caucages, which blade there you go,
like no one had a problem with. But like, because

(52:05):
we do with a couple of characters of color, everyone
gets up on arms. I mean you can. I mean
that's kind of been a weird uh thing that's even
been in media is how you know black love is
displayed like you never get to see it really kind
of shown, you know, until like shows like Insecure, show
My Man Lawrence getting in that day. We were a

(52:32):
mess after that, like what the hell? But I think
about that too, because I just finished season two of
Altered Carbon, which I hardly recommend um. But I don't
think I had ever seen Anthony Mackie as love interest
is always a very kind of de sexualized military hero,
specifically in his larger preexterus, specifically stuff he's done with Marvel,

(52:52):
which you know, maybe we'll see a change on Disney Plus,
but maybe not. He is great rings all the chemistry, um,
and the thing we see with a lot of characters
like if you're not like a Michael B. Jordan type
where you're pretty much specifically sold on your sex appeal.
Until he started producing his own work and out he's
kind of getting into these more serious projects a lot
of times. Yeah, we're not allowed to be uh sexual

(53:14):
or even I would say like romantic, and it's again
a little bit frustrating, and why I always encourage you
to just find more color creators of color so we
can avoid these kind of traps. It also speaks to
like watch some of the properties that come on the past,
like Last for so Long, like Living Single at Martin,
which represent positive like ways of like black love. And
the reason why like even today, like I teach high
school English and my kids still talk about Martin to

(53:36):
Living Singles, like why are you watching this? That's the
reason why is because this is their representation happening on
screen for them, and it's not being done in enough places. Yeah,
absolutely definitely. Um, but yeah, well, well we'll start. So
he does kind of get good with DC because he
starts doing their animation, right. Yeah, this is early two thousands,
so it's been about four or five years post the

(53:59):
comic breakup to you, when he starts entering DC Animation
to work on first Static Shock, then Justice League and
then Justice League Unlimited. What what was interesting is like
I always felt his you know, Static was definitely the
first for me of that duffy energy. But like, I
have one thing I didn't really notice that that definitely
is his probably huge handprint was the fact that with

(54:21):
Justice League, we got um, John Um Stewart, John Stewart
instead of Hal Jordan's. How Jordan's is DC can't get
enough of Hal Jordan's And he was like, no, We're
doing Jon Stewart. What a choice? Like, what a decision
to give us John Stewart, Because John Stewart had a
very fundamental impact on me as a child, Like this

(54:44):
idea of getting to see how do you how do
you even like describe like John Stewarts a soldier who
isn't necessarily interested in following orders, like he's he's a
thinking soldier, which I think is again often rare for
black characters, specifically if we're looking in that time period. Um.
But then also on top of that, like he has
one of the great romances I stay like, oh my gosh,

(55:05):
Green Lantern and Hawk Girl are like my favorite DC
couple period, hands down, Like I stand them so hard
even though, And what's really crazy is we may definitely
made me be like I know that your cheated girlfriend
is right there and she looks amazing, but can you
please go back with Hawk Girl? Like that is nuts.
Who would ever thought like a white lady over black?

(55:26):
Not me? But really, I said that relationship so hard
because because we may definitely wrote it real well, um,
because all of these characters got to be fully fleshed
out human beings because despite the fact that they were
writing a children's show, they wanted to make a show
that spoke to legitimately all ages. And I think it's
something that comic books does better than probably any other medium,
is the examine, like we don't need to dissect our

(55:49):
material for different age groups, like this is literally for
all ages can come and enjoy something in this story.
You cannot be left out. It's not too mature and
beyond your years. And they do it beautifully and and
support it really well. And John Stewart is a huge part.
On top of that, he gives the Martian man Hunter,
who also like Icon is an alien came to planet
Earth and chose to live his life as a black man.

(56:12):
Shoot his day floor is me because he was doing it,
like you know, pre two thousand's choosing to live walk
down the street as a black Eye felt uncomfortable. A
nice little icon nod that's really like Icon and Rocket
come in Justice League Unlimited. That's where I first see Rocket,
and I just there's he's able to imbue these characters

(56:33):
so well and make they felt like DC originals, you
know what I mean. And I think that's also again
speaks to his knowledge of just comic book and comic
book characters that it doesn't feel like a lot of
times I think when people create characters, you're like, I
see a lot of you in this, and there's not
necessarily something wrong with that, but it does take away
from your suspension of disbelief. So for these characters to

(56:54):
come into the DC world and outside of the dakodea
Verse and male Old and become fully functioning members of
Team Justice League, like, I needed it, and I couldn't
have been aware that I needed it at the time,
but I'm so glad that I had it. Yeah, you know,
he's so smart with doing it and it was cool.
Is he always does like undercover, like you said, been
that bit of icon and everything. Um, but I'm sorry,

(57:17):
go ahead, no, no, no, I'm listening. I was gonna say,
because like one of the cool things that he did
was on because the icon the book. People don't know
this all the time, but like, like so he's doing
that first like twelve is you run right and you
meet Rocket. It was like Rockets like break into his house.
She does all the stuff. She's like, you need to
be a hero, you need to do this, this and this,
and that's when you actually get some starts getting involved
or not. And then he gives her the bell. She
becomes a hero or not. But then she gets the
whole story and she gets pregnant and like does all

(57:38):
these things. But what people don't realize is that Loki,
if you look back at that book, Rocket is the
actual progressive force of that book. And so Dennis Colwin
gave it um this like talk one time in my
comic shop. He explained to was like, like, no, the
main character icon was Rocket because like people just didn't
realize it. But we couldn't put Rocket on the cover
and to sell this black woman lead book. So we
tricked everybody and by having to be Icon, everyone's reading

(57:59):
this Superman as book, but actually make characters Rocket this
all time the covers of that comic book, it's very
frequently Icon standing behind Rocket. Oh my god, don't think
about Dyne and all those guys. When they were doing this,
they just realized that, like, if you put diversity in
people's faces, they'll go against it, but if you do
a subvertly, people go along with it. Because the way
you talk about that later on when he wrote on

(58:19):
Justice League, um bocking around with two thousand nine ten
and so he so pretty much when he got on
the book, he doesn't get choice of choose was on
the team. They give him the established team, and so
one of the three characters they end up giving him
more Vixing Firestorm and it's a third black hairt I
can't think I think he did this. John Stewart, who's
on that team. He doesn't get a choice in this.

(58:40):
But when they do it, though, all of a sudden,
the fan base ghost nuts. They're like mcdufy's making the
Justice League and all this kind of stuff. And he
was like, I didn't even choose the Dame and it's
like and even talks about it, and like he even explains,
like I had my choice, like I would have put
other people on the team. It's like, I'm right, listen,
they won't even let me write Superman, Batman, One Woman.

(59:00):
They're not even the team that they're giving me, so
like come on, and so yeah, it's kind of shows
that again, like we subvert with it. You can actually
tell a lot of great storylines, but if you travel
with things and people's faces, they'll be very resistant. Lot,
it's a wild We pulled a couple of clips to
kind of showcase the writing style of Dwayne McDuffie. The
first one is from Justice League Flashpoint. It's from season one.

(59:21):
If you guys haven't checked out, uh Justice League, or
if that's new to you or it's been a minute,
I cannot like encourage you enough to go back and look,
he did the Brave of the Bold episode Star Crossed
and Destroyer, And I think what Dwayne does better than
most is he found a way to invigorate a lot
of the old popular storylines and make them fresh and news.

(59:41):
So let's here. This is a political debate that the
team is having deciding on how they're going to stop
lex Luther from flash point. I don't remember asking you
for your opinion. No, how about when you guys hijacked
me up here against my will and maybe join this team?
Batman said, I was supposed to keep you guys honest.
Do I look like a man to you? Actually a

(01:00:01):
kind of do, especially when you're all scaly like that.
We can't let Cadmus get away with it. No one's
saying we should, but we have to keep a cool head.
Do you know what they did to me? Kid Hambleton's
a piece of garbage and Luthor's worse. But this isn't
the way to stop them. We must also consider the

(01:00:22):
possibility that Cadmus is right to be afraid of us,
and there is strong evidence of Cadmus having legitimate connections
to the government, maybe to some rogue black ops group.
The real government wouldn't get involved in anything like this. Hey,
I'm the only guy in the room who doesn't have superpowers.
And let me tell you, you guys scare me. What
if you do decide to go marching down there taking

(01:00:43):
care of whoever you think is guilty, who could stop
you me? So you want the government to have a
bunch of superhuman weapons just to keep us in check. No,
I don't know. Yeah, the guys are hearing in that
cliff that's Green Lantern, Superman, Martian, Man, Hunters, Supergirl, and
the Flash, thank you. Uh, And they're basically trying to decide, like,

(01:01:03):
are we going to just go down to Earth and
take care of business as we do with superheroes. They
don't have a directive, there's nobody deciding who can and
cannot go on certain missions. They just sort of decide
in the moment, and they're like, listen, we know Lex
Luther's doing some shadow stuff. We know Cadmus is out
here testing Superman's DNA, creating people that can go out
there and cause additional harm with our faces. With our DNA,

(01:01:25):
we can go down and stop them. And basically the
Flash and Green Arrow are basically like, yo, y'all got
a chill. We can't just be out here causing a
fight or we could be seen as the bad guys.
People have a right to be terrified of you guys. Specifically,
you have superhuman powers. A missile could maybe stop you,
not Superman. There's nothing we can do to stop you.

(01:01:46):
If you decided to go rogue. And it's those kinds
of conversations which will occasionally happen in comic books here there,
that are the fundamental forefront of how Dwayne McDuffie approached
comic book storytelling, because he really took the idea of
like with great power, where it comes great responsibility to
its degree, and applied it very frequently to all of
his characters and made him ask what are you doing

(01:02:06):
with your time, with your life here? How are you
impacting others? That was at the forefront of his writing style,
and I really appreciate the way that he often gave
that to black folks. There's a um if we had
time to pull infinite clips, I would have. There's an
episode of um uh Justice League where John Stewart is

(01:02:27):
on Earth walking around in like his old neighborhood, and
this old black guy basically calls him out and he's like, listen,
I know you out there with all the little superheroes
find off aliens and stuff. He's like, but you ain't
been around this block in a long time, and you
ain't been helping your people in this space in a
long time. So you go out and go, you know,
save the whole world or whatever. But we're still here,
we're still hurting, we're still suffering, and you've forgotten about us.

(01:02:49):
And to do a check on a black guy like
that again in a children's cartoon impacted me. It's like
I was like ten or eleven watching this and being
like man growing up it a very like an all
white school district essentially, you know, wonder thing like how
am I not connecting to my community at this time?
And how do I get back? And how do I
do that in a way that is you know, impactful,

(01:03:11):
and it is important. And I think by posing those
questions to children that oftentimes as we grow up, those
are the things that we reflect back on and then
and and and carry us and may help us make
our decisions and how we want to react in the world. Gosh,
Doamy Duffie seriously, he's just is that just a shame
that we lost him. It's a shame we don't have
more of him, versions of him out there making comic
books right now. I'm trying. I'm trying. We are all

(01:03:34):
out here. It's not for a lack of black creators.
It's not a lack of black creators. It's financially, So
it's a it's a huge struggle to make good art
when you don't have the cash flow and when people
want to constantly question and second guess what it is
you're creating in the first place. Yeah, and like you said,
it's like this opportunity because there's a lot of like
dope creators out there who are creating these books. And

(01:03:56):
when I were telling you this a mazing stories. You
can go to any artist Sally at comic con and
real like wherever you're gonna see our faces. But the problem,
lizzos that we're publishers backing us, so we don't get
that natural distribution or whatnot. Like without a publisher, I'm
not sure how far can get The black Man's got
to getting pulled over. But if I had that with me,
then I can put that in every comic shop across
the country. So you're exactly right, we have that funding,
we have the opportunity at least like these amazing things

(01:04:17):
and was dope. It is like that storyline low key
influence comics. I want to say what fro almost like
the next ten years because in that like one clip
right there is a kid I remember watching They're like
what no, the hero should do with the heroes want
to do? And then I saw a man of steel.
I was like, no, they need accountability, they need accountability. No, no,
no no. But what's crazy is that drops around like
two thousands. But then what happens around two thousand five

(01:04:38):
six step seven? We get the Civil War star line
and Marvel Comics, which is just emulating that, and it's
that whole thing about like super responsibility. And then we
see that in other like books of what was going
for like next in the year. So like, you're exactly
right that one little bit of writing he did on
this animation that's so a dope, that's so conting said
of like the Patriot Act and all the things that
are actually happening in the government. He was able to
stretch that and people were in the room with that
and like helping influence comics for the next decade. Yeah,

(01:05:01):
do you want to play this last clip? Ye? John
picked this? What you want to cue it up? Okay?
So um, going back Batman Beyond Batman be honest an
amazing series. But the problem it is so sadly enough,
it never got a season finale, never got that sind off,
so Dwayne's like, oh no, I got this because I
think when he worked on Just League, he did sixty
of the ninety episodes, he's one every single one of

(01:05:22):
the most. So he's like, we're gonna do for Batman.
In this epilogue, here Amanda waller um is explained how
she's actually created Terry McGinnis the Batman, beyond about how
he's actually like a clone of Batman, and she begins
explaining why we need a Batman in today's world. Stop
me if you've heard it before. You're eight years old.
Your parents have just taken you to a rousing adventure film.

(01:05:44):
A grand time is had by all, but unknown to you,
a mysterious figure heights in the shadows. My plan was simple.
The killer would leap out at you, would kill your family.
The trauma would put you on the path to becoming Batman.

(01:06:05):
One problem, my assassin wouldn't pull the trigger. I argued
with her, but deep down I knew she was right.
People say Batman is obsessive, that he'd do anything to
achieve his goals, but he'd never resort to murder. So
if I was to honor all he stood for, neither

(01:06:30):
could I. And yet my dad wound up murdered anyway.
Don't you get it? No matter what you did or
didn't do, I was going to end up being Bruce's
carbon copy. Was fate. You know. The Lord has been
a great comfort to me all these years. Try not
to look so surprised. Yeah, I've got a lot to

(01:06:50):
answer for when I meet him, But I'd like to
believe that for all the harm I've caused, I've also
done some good. Maybe the angels need a sharp sword
to like A good book says, He moves in mysterious ways.
His plan is a mystery. But here's what Isn't he
gave us free Will we choose our own fate for

(01:07:14):
good or ill. I've known Bruce Wayne for over fifty years,
and I've been keeping an eye on you your whole life.
You're not Bruce's clone, you're his son. There are similarities,
mind you, but more than a few differences too. You
don't quite have his magnificent brain, for instance. You do

(01:07:36):
have his heart, though, and for all that fierce exterior,
I've never met anyone who cared as deeply about his
fellow man as Bruce Wayne, except maybe you. You want
to have a little better life than the old man's.
Take care of the people who love you or don't,

(01:07:57):
it's your choice. I've had my whole life, and having
a fat Amanda Waller walking around putting fingers in Batman's
face telling him this is how the game plan is
gonna work was inspirational. And I think a huge part
of what made her awesome was that that Dwayne mcduvie,
and I'll give props the Gail Simone too, we're back
there writing her, structuring her in such a way that
made her uh an epic forced to be reckoned with.

(01:08:20):
She knew Bruce Wayne's identity and she was not afraid
to use it against him. But I think what we
just heard, like this whole breakdown first of psychological analysis
of Batman, which is maybe one of the most fascinating
characters in the American canon, to um pivoting to how
that's going to continue beyond him, and viewing morality uh

(01:08:41):
and uh mortality smoothly in a way again accessible to
all ages, to all people across demographics, like the power
of McDuffie. It's just and if you watch that episode.
In the end, uh, Terry goes back to Bruce's mansion
and Bruce is struggling to open a bottle of pills
as he's like lecturing him about like can you tell

(01:09:03):
me where you go? And like I'm worried about Gotham.
I'm trying to coordinate. He's like, listen, old man, I'm
gonna open your pills and let me go see Superman
about whatever this business is. I got you, like take
a nap. You're my dad. And it's just, oh my gosh,
it's so beautiful. I really I'm glad you picked this
one job. No problem because like no problem that you're playing,
because honestly, for me, it's like it kind of shows

(01:09:24):
how dope Batman is, and it shows how well do
I understood the characters, because for Batman, it's not the money,
it's not the guy. That's not the ninja training that
does help, But it's just empathy his Emyothy, the way
he cares about his fellow man. That says some power
from like from everyone and um. And again it shows
what Terry is Terris everything is so strong, dislike him.
And what I like it as well is that it
shows that Terry goes on a different path because it

(01:09:44):
writes that he goes and he's trying to go meet
with a superman and everything. He's also got a wedding ring.
He's like, I want to do what Bruce didn't do.
I'm gonna value my family, want to keep his acutally going.
I'm gonna like value the people that I have, and
I push everyone away. And it just kind of shows
how like McDuffie understood character growth and how characters need evolved. Yeah,
McDuffie said the part of his goal was to make

(01:10:05):
black characters applicable to young white kids, not the idea
that like you necessarily connect with him, but just that
that a black man could be your superman as well. Um.
And so while scrolling through Twitter after I had doing
a lot of research on this, I found this adorable tweet. Um,
I'm gonna give proper credit. It's from rand bat at
rand bot Um and the tweet says, fourth grade at

(01:10:27):
Dexter's School does a living wax museum for Black History Month.
This guy was between McDuffie. It's a white kid with
Dwayne's um, what you call us a goatee like drawn
on and the thick glasses and like a static shock
t shirt on. There's no black face here. This is
just a kid who wants to like give props to
Dweyne McDuffie, whose favorite superhero is Static Shock. And I

(01:10:50):
think if you go to Hans and Things, you constantly
see the static jacket because it's sick um and I
it's if we had to lose him, if he's not
here anymore, it's awesome that his legacy endures to this
next generation and beyond um perhaps to McDuffie for giving
us so much. Well, yeah, that that's kind of what

(01:11:12):
I wanted to use, uh for you know, there for
the you know, usually at this point we're discussed like
the future and the future and all this, but I
think the future is and something we're going to talk about.
It's a future that you, the listener, are going to
show us to all the people of color, to all
even white people. I don't not even exclude y'all, but
to all the writers and creators who are listening to

(01:11:34):
this episode right now. The future of Dwayne McDuffie lives
inside you. Or what are you doing to push the
envelope to be more accessible, to shine light on people
who might be sitting in the shade. What are you
creating to uh introduce to the world people who might
not be seen as much. And I do think that
can live within anyone listening, no matter the color of

(01:11:57):
your skin, whether it be through LGBT you a plus,
whether it be through disabled, whether it be through any
type of afflictions that might uh you know be around
you or you know you yourself might be dealing with.
You have the power to shine light and to raise

(01:12:17):
awareness of it. Uh. It's just at the end of
your pen. And with that, you know, uh, where can
people find you? Johnny? What what? What is there you'd
like to plug? You can find me at Johnny P
three on three on my Patreon and Instagram and Twitter. Um,
I'll be doing a kickstarter for one of my series
and may called Broken. It's a video game animey adventure.

(01:12:37):
It's like Smash Brothers Melee meets Pokemon. It's super double
super Thank you um and then you can form a Patreon.
You can find me a Johny p thro one through
Instagram and Twitter. And I also on a wrestling podcast
for that that hashtag show called t HS Wrestling. We
do a show every Sunday night, so come watch me.
My co host Nisa and John Um and we gotta
go through and talk about all good things wrestling every week. Yeah,

(01:13:01):
I'm all over the internet at Joel Monique and for
the next three four weeks over at who shot you
taking over? If he's positioned there filming for everybody. It's
a good time, appreciated, a lot of knowledge. Yeah, and
you know me. If you wide away on Twitter and Instagram.
If d's on Twitch, watch super Punch every night Monday

(01:13:22):
through third Monday through Thursday, where I host at eleven
pm Eastern eight pm Pacific time. The discord is Discord
dot che Che Forward slash, uh Salt Squad. We have
an anime club. Now we're watching Black Lagoon, uh so
tune in for that and uh last but certainly not

(01:13:44):
leaks t public dot com, Forward slash and are difficent
for all your mercy goodness, pull up and let us
make you look good and like we always end every episode,
Stay Nerd,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 98: Dwayne McDuffie