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May 19, 2020 51 mins

Mental Health May continues as Dani and Ify explore Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation.


Mayo Clinic

Harvard Medical

National Library of Medicine

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to another episode of nerd IF sent y'all, how
you're doing, how you're feeling, how you're doing. It's about
to be good. We're feeling so good and we want
you to feel good, which is why we're doing mental
health may how y'all doing? How you doing? But as always,
sitting across from me is the hostess with the mostest

It is Danny Fernandez. Danny, how you don't you know?
I'm dropping these quarantine photo shoots really proud of myself.
Oh yeah, for showering, putting on makeup and doing a
photo shoot in my kitchen. Everybody was like it was
so funny because people were like, this is the best

thing you've ever done, and I'm like, really, this was
shot on an iPhone and like the lighting is off,
but thank you. I mean, but that's the Is there
something to like the grittiness? You know, like how some
people they you know, they don't want everything on pro there,
you know, they like the amateur stuff, you know, and
it adds a level. And also like phones now are

so good with the right lighting, you can almost get
like a slight DSLR look to it. Yeah, so I agree,
I agree with them. They are smacking these uh, these
images that you've been I just want everyone to feel good.
I hope that I and people have written me, but
I really and you do too, like we're so body positive.

I just really hope people, especially as we age, just
like really stepping into owning themselves. I think. Yeah, And
it was like, you should just just decide to be
hot and then just act accordingly, like it's just you.
It's just something you can decide because there's tons of
people that tell us that we're not attractive, and it's like, okay,
but I'm going to decide to be like I am

and all my friends are like, we just decided on it,
and so I think you can just off great from
that energy. Yeah, and I agree. I think there's something
to the energy of, you know, that confidence of being like,
you know, I'm hot, because who like really honestly, if
like if everyone but the person that you're into thinks

you're ugly, then who cares? You know it really you know,
and when you really put it that way, you know
who cares, and you know it's it's not even more
of it. Well, I was going to say, speak we
always talk what we're seeking out about and I've been
watching We're Here on HBO. So it follows Eureka, Bob
and Angela from RuPaul's Drag Race as they take people

and put and put them in drag and they also
take heteronormative men who have in the past been homophobic
who are now trying to come to terms with that
when they were growing up. Uh And anyways, I mean,
I could guarantee you people have told them that they're ugly.
People still tell them that they're ugly, and and so
it's just like it's just something that they've they They're like,

I'm hot. I know I'm hot, and I've accepted it,
and you know, I just that's what I want to
put out there because I think people are like, well,
it's easy for you to say. It's like, no, I
have seventy seven thousand followers. I can guarantee like at
least a thousand people have told me I'm ugly, and
I can believe no, it's true, and it's like, you know,
people will be like, well, I think people don't realize

that because you know, someone else might be like, well,
people have told me that I'm like, but have you
had three thousand people tell you that because kind of different.
And when you can read YouTube comments of someone you
know making fun of your face and it gets eight
hundred likes, that will affect anyone's head. And so but
I highly recommend watching that. It's just so amazing to

see people. It's a it's a cultured community that's wrapped
in love and acceptance. It's people of all different body sizes,
all different backgrounds, just really embracing themselves. And I love
when they get all done up, like when the guys
to like the the guys who are kind of like
say and offish about it, they get all done up
and they're like, how do you feel? And they're like, man,
I feel sexy as well. Like they're just so feeling

themselves in the makeup and the wigs and they're just like, oh,
I get why you do this because you just feel
so good. Yeah. So definitely check it out on HBO.
Steal someone's log in if you have to. Yeah, my, my,
my geek out is very different. Uh. And uh, what
I'm geeking out about is I just ordered the Criterion
collection of the show Your Era um of Godzilla. Uh,

and it's so big, you know. I ordered it off Criterion.
I didn't know, Like I knew it was going to
be in book form, but I didn't know it was
going to be gigantic. So it's sitting up next to
all my figures and I can't wait to just work
work my way through it because I did just like
the other day watch King of the Monsters. God's a
little King of the Monsters of the newer American one,

and you know, you know, the same same same fields
as the first one, where it's like, you know, all
the kaiju stuff, great, the human element, let's get rid
of it. We don't need it. We don't need it.
And it's a very Western thing, which is why you'll
watch the uh if you watch the Japanese version, like
the human element in it is very small, unless, of course,

it's like I talked about this on the Godzilla podcast
what Haley man siny, where it's like there's typically like
uh two to three types of Godzilla where it's like
Godzilla is fighting other Kaiju, and then there's Godzilla versus
humanity uh and and and the Godzilla movie, um, both
of them kind of tries to split the difference between

the two, but you can't really do that because like
those are two separate things. You know, if it's if
it's Godzilla versus humanity, then you're you're kind of dealing
with Okay, now you have the human element, but it's
also like a movie where there's a lot of loss
and you're trying to cover because Godzilla, of course is
a analogy for the atomic bomb, so like that's why

it's always been that way. But if it's god Zilla
versus the monsters, there's needs to be so little human
interaction and less of them, like we're gonna help God's
all out. No you're not. These are giant monsters. But
why why are we so obsessed with bullets working against
giant monsters? Like we just need to prove that there's
a reason we're spending this much money on our military.

Uh no, it's gonna be, it's not gonna it's not
gonna work. But anyway, I still liked it, still enjoyed it.
It was a fun one. So check that out. If Yeah,
these are all things both things that we mentioned that
can be considered self care, which is good because this
month we're doing the mental health may um yes, and

today we are covering continuing with our month looking into
the nerdiness that is brain science and and therapy treatment
as technology changes and grows. This week we are doing MS,
which is transcranial magnetic stimulation. It's nerdy as hell. Yeah,

I mean, I want to, like, before we even dive
into this, just kind of talk about this is something
you've brought up before. This is also something that you've
mentioned other folks of note have tried out. So you know, uh,
let's talk about your relationship to it, because you actually
have a personal relationship versus you know, anyone else. Yeah,

So it's something that I did. It was recommended by
my therapist and my psychiatrist. It is essentially used for
treatment resistant depression, which means that you have tried prescription medication,
multiple prescription medications that have not quite worked for you.
I having a chronic illness and very sensitive to medication,

so a lot of them. If it's like may cause
side effects for me, it will It's like go ahead
and put it will cause side of and so um
those and yeah, and so it's different. It's typically covered
by insurance, which we're gonna get into. We're going to
get into what it is and how it works. But
I just want to stay off top. It's typically covered

by insurance, but they normally required that you have had
failed attempts at antidepressants, which means like I did well
beutan for months, it didn't work. I did go off
for munch it didn't work like stuff like that. And
for me, I think my insurance wanted me to have
four and I had like three, and I was unwilling
to do another round. I'm like, I'm not going to

put myself to another round just to do this. So
I had the funds at the time to do six
weeks of TMS. You go in every day you go.
It is a commitment. Um. So I went in at
least Monday through Friday every single day in the morning, um,
and did a round of magnetic stimulation on my head.

And yes, Neil Brennan is another their person who's been
really vocal about it. I think we actually have a
clip that we can play for people kind of like
just talks a little bit about it. This TMS thing,
transparanial magnetic stimulation covered by Blue Cross. Huh yeah, uh
so yeah, that's what like it's it's it was really

really good. Like I for a lot of my life,
I felt like I had a All right, I had
like I had like a thing like it almost felt
like a metal weight, like a bit of like five
pound weight on my upper left forehead, my left and
then so I went to this, whoa dude, that sound

is like an mri I sound. Yeah, that's what it is.
It is. Yes, it's basically the same exact magnet as
an m r I. Hey, yeah, they put it on
your head. It's pretty simple. The first time they measure it.
They have to get to like the exact spot. There's
there's another video where my finger is pulsing that you'll
enjoy And what is it doing to you? Like, what's
the benefit? Uh, it's basically magnetizing and electrifying. Hey, it's

waking up basically dead uh synapses according to them. Really yeah,
so it's it's waking up dead synapses and uh waking
up dead waking them up. So there dormant, that's what
they say. We went We went to the on that
same on that same recording with Joe Rogan. He talked

about doing ketamine treatment and we went to the same
doctor and we both did not like it. So I'm
happy that it's worked for people. But TMS is something
that we both have done that is really helpful. And
I talked to Neil about it when I was doing it,
so he's another person that has been super super vocal
about about how it's helped him. Nice. Nice, So let's

talk a little bit about what exactly it is in
the history of it. Yeah, so transcranial magnetic stimulation. It's
non invasive form of brain stimulation in which a changing
magnetic field is used to cause electric current at a
specific area of the brain through electro magnetic induction. It's like,

what does that mean? That's a lot, that's a lot
of info we're That reminds me of like it sounds
like Michael Scott trying to explain something in the office. Yeah,
where it's just like the or that scene with Ben
Stiller trying to pray and meet the Fockers. But he's like,

these three things we pray to see the more dear lead.
It's just like you're just making up words. Is even
going on? Yeah, um, we're gonna get fully into that.
But I did want to tackle the history of TMS. UM.
So yeah, you know the history is Luigi Galvani undertook

research on the effects of electricity on the body in
the late eighteenth century and laid the foundation for the
field of electro physiology. And then in the eighteen thirties,
Michael Faraday discovered that an electrical current at a corresponding
magnetic field and the changing one can induce its counterpart
so work, so they worked to directly stimulate the human

brain with electricity. Um they started that work in the
late eighteen hundreds and then by the nineteen thirties uh
Italian physicians uh sir Letti and Binny have developed electro
convulsive therapy, also known as ect. ECT became widely used
to treat mental illness, and ultimately it was overused and

soon it just became a u as a panacea. And
this led to backlash in the nineteen seventies because I
think this is when they were doing like the more
like electro shock therapy stuff that is that was that
was not as I guess we'll say, thought out. But
then in the nineteen h and nineteen eighty Merton and Morton,

the you know, they they had to team up, team
up just because of their name. They're like, well, Merten
and Morton, we got to be a squad. So then
in nineteen eighty, Merten and Morton successfully used transcranial electrical
stimulation to stimulate the motor cortex. However, this process was
very uncomfortable, and subsequently, Anthony T. Barker began to search
for an alternative to t e S. They began exploring

the use of magnetic fields to alter electrical signaling within
the brain, and the first stable TMS devices were developed
in nineteen eighty five. So that's not too long though,
that's you know, you know, three years before me and
Danny started walking this earth. Uh. But they were originally uh,
they were originally intended as a diagnostic to research devices,

with evaluation of their therapeutic potential being a later development.
In the United States, FDA first approved TMS devices in
October of two thousand and eight. So this is fresh. Yeah,
But what's fascinating is it's been out for over a
decade and yet it's still not commonly used. It's still
not commonly prescribed. Um. Do you think it also, you know,

just as a more general discussion, do you think it's
because you know, like my, my, you are have been
the person who have kind of taught me about t MS.
T MS and before you brought it up, I never
heard about it, but even just the description until like
you were like, no, this is how it works. It
does seem like I think with because of the way

electroshock therapy was used. I think it makes it harder
for people to like wrap their brains around it. Do
you feel that way or do you think it's just
people not enough people know about it. I think it's
because and I was watching, you know, preparing for this,
I was watching psychs talk about it, and I think
it's because they're not trained in it. I think a
lot of times traditional if you look at professors that

have been around for decades now, this was not in
their wheelhouse. And so it's the same thing that we
see in the chronic illness community dealing with autoimmune disorders.
There's so much emerging science, and yet if you it's
your responsibility, I would say as a doctor to continue
to learn. You're never done learning. And good doctors know that,
but not all of them operate that way. And so

I think the first line of defense is always prescription medication,
and which I totally understand and get um. But when
that's not working, it's normally not always in their text book.
I feel like when I was being treated for autoimmune,
for even my hashimotos, it was like, oh, you just
take a pill, you take a thyroid pill, and I'm like, well,
this isn't working. I need other I need alternative treatments

on top of this. And so if they're not constantly
searching for new information, I think that's why. And and
they talked about that openly, and some of the interviews
that I watched is that it's just that's not necessarily
not all psykes do t ms or recommend to ms. Also,
let's talk about the pharmaceutical industry because that's a big thing.

And I go, if you're going to disappear next week,
don't talk about it. But it's so interesting because I
used to work, um one of my early jobs is
they used to be a receptionist at a doctor's office.
And I remember every week like it was either like
a Wednesday or Thursday. It was real good because we
had we we wouldn't have to bring lunch because some
pharmaceutical company is gonna come and they buy us lunch.

And it took me a while to realize that they're
essentially trying to butter the office up so the doctor
can specifically use They're like, they're like, um, prescription of
it that way when you really think of it from
the inside out that way, you're like, then then that
when you think of it, they're not prescribing you based
on like necessarily what they feel is best. I think

that the doctors have the best one in mind, especially
the one that I worked for. I will say you
totally was like, yeah, they're just trying to get me
to buy it, but I like what I like. But
I'll always say yes to free lunch, so shout out
to him. But um, but other doctors, you know, if
you're you know, if you're if you're getting wind and
dine and someone's really taking care of you quote unquote, uh,

then now you're prescribing based on that and not necessarily
what is best. And it's funny that you said that,
how you're like, good doctors are staying ahead of the
curve because you know, it's very similar in a way
to like, um, computer science and I T But the
only difference is if you don't stay ahead of the curve,
you just become obsolete, Like you're not a good idea

if you're not constantly learning where doctors if there's so
much you know, history, medical history that they can kind
of get by by being like, no, this is work
for the longest that we're gonna try this. Unfortunately, though,
if that doesn't work, then you're kind of just yeah,
it's it's the whole thing that that could be a
whole long discussion that I'm sure Danny has lots lots

and lots of thoughts, because you've got a multiple on whammy.
You got the whammy of having chronic illness, which is
one of which is hard to get the doctors to
even understand you. Then as a woman, it's hard to
get doctors to believe you, and as a woman of color,
it's even like that. It's just like three strikes of
doctors just not taking your word for it. And the

closest I've got to that, which in the one time
it happened, which it was really frustrating, was like when
I was at the dentist and I was like, hey,
it's not numb enough, and because I'm this big black dude,
they're like, no, you're good, and just almost when I
almost jumped out the chair and knocked and knocked him out,
and then not trying to hit him. I'm just like

it jerked because he did go. He finally did it.
But it's like I had to experience pain for you
to listen to me. You just you just were so sure.
It's so the frustration is real, and it is. I
was going to say, as far as staying ahead of
the curve, there is a huge community on Reddit as
when it comes to electric magnetic stimulation. Now I will say,

please do not do this. There is an entire you
know what I'm gonna say. If you people have built
their own UM and I watched videos on it and
a lot of people swear by it. Here's the thing
that with with the placement, which we're going to get into,
because these are specifically placed, as Neil said, they have
to measure your head and place it in a certain
specific area. If you mess up that area and you're

just a little bit off, it can make it worse.
It can make things worse for you. Um, you can
be exhausted, you could be more depressed, you could like
it's just not just go and get it done, especially
now that most insurances will cover it. I want to say, um,
since insurance companies are shady, have no problem saying this

UM and and that is when they say when my
insurance company was like, oh you have to have four
failed treatments, it's um self self proclaimed or whatever that is.
I messed up by telling them that I didn't. But
they don't go back and check because I don't even
remember some of my doctors that I had years ago.

So that's just a little heads up for people, UM
that they don't they don't check. If you've had for now,
people are gonna be like, that's irresponsible. Whatever. Again, being
someone that has a chronic illness, sometimes you have to
play the game because the game is being played on you.
So speaking on that, we have to go and take

a quick break. I want to say before we hop
into more, I am not a licensed professional. I am
just a patient who has been in the mental health
care UH community for years now. And I also, as
you know, if I worked in cardiac rehab, so I
did actually work in a hospital. My my training is
in kinesiology. That's what I have. My bachelor's from Texas

and Texas. I like that you specify that it's from Texas,
Like I got my bachelor's from Texas well. Well, the
University of Texas is very hard to get into. They
only take the top eight if you are in Texas.
If you go to a public school in Texas, you
get automatic exception uh into the school if you're in

the top eight percent of your class. So it is
the one of the best business schools, one of the
best um premed pro like. It's just it's a really
great school. Also has a ton of money that's funneled
into it for sports. That makes us a lot of
money and all the Nike and Gatorade and whatever like.
So anyways, um, we're gonna take a quick break. We're

gonna hop into more TMS right after this we are back.
We're still talking about TMS diving into some nerdy brain
science and so how does this work? What was all

the gogglly goop that I was talking about just throwing
around electrodes and and magnets and brain um. So, essentially,
an electromagnetic coil is placed against your scalp near your forehead.
Now they literally measure this. Um. They actually for me,
if I remember when they were doing it, they kind

of test it. It's supposed to make your finger twitch.
I think specifically you're either your index or your it
was supposed to make one of your fingers twitch, and
then they knew that they hit the right spot for you,
which on everybody is different depending on your head. And
I have a huge, a huge head. Um. So the
electromagnetic painlessly delivers a magnetic pulse that stimulates nerve cells

in the region of your brain involved in mood control
and depression. So what was fascinating to me, Neil, I
think in if we had continued that Joe Rogan interview,
he I think actually did it for thirty minutes, which
is how they used to do it. Now they've had
advancements where I only did it for three minutes, So

I him in like I was in and out within
fifteen minutes, like they strapped the thing on my head.
They made sure it was in the correct placement. Once
they have the correct placement for you, they keep your
cap like with your name on it, with your placement,
so they can just put it on your head every
time and check. They still checked and made sure that
my finger would twitch, you know that they had in

the right spot, especially me having as much hair as
I do. UM. So yeah, it was only three minutes,
two to three minutes, I think, and What was fascinating
is they did one side for depression and then they
did another side for anxiety, and my anxiety was only
fifteen seconds, so they would just do that for fifteen
seconds and then stop. So it's different for everyone depending
on where you're at. Though the biology of y TMS

works isn't completely understood. This is from the Mayo Clinic.
The stimulation appears to impact how the brain is working,
which in turn seems to ease depression symptoms and improve mood. Now,
the difference between Neil and I that I talked to
him about is he was also on medication while he
did it and I was not, So I was going

raw in. But a lot of people at that sounded aggressive.
My my psych was like, it would be more beneficial
if you were on an antidepressant, so it just raises
your baseline. But for me, because of the side effects
of the antidepressant, it was not. I would rather have

just done t m S. T MS was my antidepressant. Yeah,
like Neil and Joe were saying, it's similar to an MRI.
The magnetic field is about the same strength as an
m r I and the pulse generally reaches no more
than five centimeters into the brain. Um, you don't have

It's not I don't want to say it's painful, but
it is. It does feel like if someone had a
long nail and was repeatedly tapping your head, it gets sore.
So the next day, what what were you gonna say?
That sounds intense. Yes, it gets sore because you're doing
it repeatedly. So the first day it feels like, Okay,

someone just tapping my head, But if someone taps the
same spot on your head, by the fifth day, it's
going to be a little sore. However, it's not, you know,
it's not it's not like super painful or anything. The
I would say a common side effect that I never
really had is having a headache after that's common, and
then also fatigue that I did have. Because you're stimulating

your brain, you're kind of it's kind of like if
you were to do an intense like do you get
headaches or do you feel fatigued after your have like
an intense gaming session where it feels like you were
using your brain too? Oh yeah, definitely yeah, and you're
just like, oh, what's cool about tea mass is that
it's not just also depression it seems like they've shown,

you know, potential with neurologic conditions such as Alzheimer's uh
amatrophic lateral soleurosis, persistent vegetative states, epilepsy, stroke related disabilit
of these, tonitus, multiple sclerosis, schizophrenia, and traumatic brain energy
traumatic brain injury. So this is you know, kind of

remarkable that it's pretty great, and I'm almost excited to
see where it goes from here because you know, like,
like it said, FDA approved it in two thousand and eight,
so we're about twelve years in, so you know what,
what's more to come? You know. Yeah, it's actually very

common with PTSD, so I would say it's up there.
The amount of people who are prescribed it for depression,
I would say PTSD is also up there um. And
for me it did as far as how I felt after,
I felt immediately better right after, but then that kind
of fades away, which is why I would say the

typical treatment is about six weeks UM, with people returning
for boosters as my my cycle would call them, like
after you know, it's supposed to last for the year,
but some people needed after and needed again after three
months after doing a six week treatment they need, you know,
three to six months. They need to come back in.
What I did want to say is the cost, which

we're still dealing with. I mean, drugs treatment in general
is just absurd in this country. Um. My people worked
with me. I think it was for six weeks. I
think I paid like four grand. Um. And again this
is somebody that has that needed it. It says a
single t MS session for depressive disorders averages about three

fifty dollars, and you're doing five sessions of a week.
A full course of treatment could cost between six thousand
to twelve thousand, depending on the number of treatments. Again,
a lot of insurances do cover it. However, it should
be the same as my depression medicine, right, My depression

medicine I think is like ten to twenty bucks. And
this is technically a depressive treatment for depression. Um, it
is wild that it would cost that much. Especially at
a lot of these psych places. They have the machine already,
they bought the machine, they have it. Um. Most of
them are willing to work with your budget in some

type of way because again they're just they want to help. Um.
We are lucky to be in Los Angeles where there
are multiple TMS places I know other states. Is probably
not because again it's still relatively I don't want to
say it's new, it's just not as accepted in common. Okay,
let's talk about your what it's like when you go in?

Yes please? So. Um, So, before treatment begins, your doctor
will need to identify the best place to put the
magnets on your head and the best dose of magnetic
energy for you. So that's another thing. So Neil's dose
is going to be different than my dose. Again, they're
placing it, they're trying to find the right spot, and
they will keep moving it around. They're kind of like
little zaps on your head. I like to think of

it as like the pimples zapper or whatever, Like it's
just a little up, little zap on your head and
they'll keep so, they'll put it in the spot that
they think it should go, and they keep turning it
up again until your finger moves. Um. But I have
had other areas of my body twitch like I think
maybe like my shoulder I can touch once and like yeah,

um yeah. So your your doctor will determine the amount
of magnetic energy needed by increasing the magnetic dose until
your fingers or hands twitch. That's known as your motor threshold,
and that's used as a reference point in determining the
right dose. So during each treatment, I'm gonna see I
know Neil posted a picture of himself. I'm gonna I

have a picture of myself. Um, so I'll see about
posting it. It's really a vulnerable thing, you know, when
you're doing true. I think I sent you a picture.
Did you remember that if you when I had like yeah, yeah,
it was why I think I said to to Roy
with Jr. Because we had just sold uh the show
that I did for HBO, max On on Depression in

the mental health care system. So I'm definitely an have
TMS hopefully in our show. But I remember sending that
to him. You're in essentially a doctor's chair that looks
like a dentist chair. You're like lean back. Another thing
that they have is um typically in office and the
offices they have Netflix up so you can watch Netflix
while you're doing it. But it's funny to me it

would be different for like I said, um, Neils, which
was like thirty minutes, because you can actually watch an
episode of something. Mine was like three minutes and I
was like, what is the point? It was really funny
because I came in I'm going to get I'm gonna
get crapped for this. But I came in and somebody
whoever was in front of me was watching um Ricky Gervais,

and I was like, I feel this will make me
feel worse. Yeah, you'll just have a negative connotation with
t MS. Yeah exactly. I think it's really funny, like
are you gonna watch the Sopranos while you're getting TMS?
Like what are people choosing to watch? I always have
them turn it off because I just wanted a moment
of calmness, I think when I was doing it, or

I'll have them put on one of the things on
the TV settings is just like a meditative you know,
screen saver type of of water the ocean. Um. So
they do have that even at mind even though it's
only three minutes long, you can start three minutes. Well.
I think how they did it is if you were
watching something like whoever it was watching the Ricky Gervas special,

it was saved at whatever they left off, so when
they came in the next day they can watch another
three minutes and really just keep chunking along. I feel
like that's the best way to ingest that special three minutes.
Three minutes. Yeah, Quimby should have made three minute episodes
for people that have TMS. Um. Okay, so you're sitting
in this dentist's chair. Um, your they give you ear plugs.

They give you ear plugs, which I never needed. Um,
I just didn't like using them. And then when the
machine is turned on, you hear clicking sounds that are
tapping your head. Um. Again, this is from the Mayo clinic.
It'll last about forty minutes. Mine was not that. My
My psych had a different treatment. Um, so mine was
much shorter. And then you can you can go about

your day. You can drive yourself home. You know. I
found this sweet spot where I worked out before I
did it, so I had all of these endorphins going
and then I would go to my treatment. I would
drive over from the gym and do my treatment. Um,
I do not sweat and work out as hard as you, iffy,
So it was more it was more something like I

wasn't all sweaty going in there. Um. I would go
over and uh and then do it and it would
be like a massive boost where I remember one day
I was driving to the post office and I was
so happy. I was like, is this how people feel
that don't have depression? It was wild. Um, it was

kind of like Jabouki's tweet where it was like wow people.
It was essentially his tweet was like, people aren't on antidepressants.
You're just like raw dogging the world, like you're just
walking through life like just raw. Like you know, we
kind of have like a protective filter. I feel like
with medicine and so doing that combo though, I remember

I was on a high. I had like a high
when I was leaving and I was like, I can't
believe that I could feel like this all the time.
That's so dope. Now afterwards it did kind of wear
off and I didn't see immediate results. I would say,
you know, they are nice. Thing is that my psych
checked in with me constantly asking like okay, well, if

if you're feeling okay, we can increase your dose, we
can increase your voltage, if you're not having any side effects,
if you're not having headaches. Yeah, but I you know,
it's up and down. What I really want to say,
as we're covering mental health, may and all of these
different treatments. Is it's a learning process and it's an
ever evolving process. Depending on what's happening in your life,

you might need something else. So for me, I just
think of myself as a guinea pig where I'm like,
I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna
keep trying things until I just you know, get into
the place that I want to be. But I'll probably
go back to t MS. But I don't I don't
think it's like a curel. I don't think it's like, oh,

I'll do this for six weeks one time and then
my lifelong generational trauma is just solved. Yeah, but it's
you know, it's good, a good break from it, right Yeah.
I mean I think it's it's again. And also if
you can get it covered, I think it's a great um,
a great a great treatment to try, you know, constantly,

just try. And Neil said it saved his life, right,
So he was the same with me, like he was
in a suicidal episode where ketamine didn't work for him.
Ketamine made me feel worse. To be honest, do clinical
ketamine again. I did not do it. I didn't do
special k uh from like a dealer. I did clinical
ketamine under the person, under the supervision of a in

a doctor's office. Yeah, and so it saved his life.
So he's you know, and I am here and other
people that have done it are here because we during
this suicidal depressive episode, chose to do t MS. Yeah,
let's dope on that note, We're going to take another break,
hopefully not getting too heavy. Um, we're gonna we're gonna

jump more into this electro magnetic stimulation and talk about
the future of it right after this. Welcome back to
near defficent. I'm if you want the ways sitting across
from me digitally Danny Fernandez when we're talking about t

m AS today, and if you don't know what that is,
that's transcranial magnetic stimulation. Uh, something Danny knows about. We've
been talking about. We went through the history and all
of that. You know, I think you know we Danny
when we went to break said she forgot to give
this disclaimer, but we're gonna say it anyway. Obviously, transcranial

magnetic stimulation is you can't do it if you have
a metal plate in your head. Um, not not no, boy, no,
but yeah, there's a couple of other contrary like you
can't do it if you're I don't know if pregnant
people can do it. Your doctor will definitely talk to
you about it. They will not let you do it.
Just make sure that you're super open with them about anything,

even even stuff that you're feeling afterwards. Obviously, if you
have like side effects, let them know, keep them abreast.
Oh and this is just in general. If you have
side effects with your medicine, please keep your doctor abreast
of them. I think I was dealing with a lot
of fatigue with a certain antidepressant I was on. It
just felt like even if I had an energy drink,

I couldn't fully wake up. It was just kind of
like I was in a daze. And I told my
doctor about it and so we we switched. But I
think a lot of people just accept it. And I
would say, you never know what other medicine is out there,
so definitely keep them abreast of your because they were like, oh, well,
that's not helpful. They want you to feel your best,

especially if it's a medicine that you're taking every day.
So definitely, this is just for mental health may let
them know about your side effects, check in with them,
email them, talk to them. You should be, you know,
in contact with the person that is essentially prescribing you
things for your brain and your life, you know. So
so keep them abreast, Keep them abreast. Danny has been

choosing some some some choices of words this episode. I
feel like trying to be careful. The teen is getting
to her, the teens who are saying abreast, she said,
going in raw, I'm like, Danny, well, um, if I was,
you mentioned e c T and I kind of just
wanted to follow up and talk about the different It's
really quick between e c T and TMS. So e

c T is electron electro convulsive therapy, and it is
different in that it essentially intentionally causes a series of
generalized seizures. Now TMS does not do that. E c

T is administered in a hospital setting. T MS is
also done that or at your doctor's office. But because
the treatment is designed to cause a series of generalized seizures,
patients are given muscle relaxants to prevent damage to muscles
and bones during seizures. Some studies which we will link,
I think super producer Joel has one for us that's

from Psychiatric Times. Some studies that they have done have
shown e C e C T to be more effective.
Now to me, it sounds much more I guess the
word that's coming up is traumatic. Uh. Then then TMS,
which doesn't involve inducing seizures, so that seems to be

a more serious, intense treatment. However, it is an option
and has helped other people. So I think as long
as you're under the supervision of a doctor, definitely just
talk talking out like the you know, these treatments are
not for everybody. But as far as TMS, there are
very very small side effects, I would say, and hasn't

really nothing really serious, uh that I have found or
that my my psychiatrist has found. So you said it's
completely painless, right this whole procedure. I want to say,
t MS feels like somebody tapping your head repeatedly, So

it feels like a finger tapping your head. I want
to say, like a would you describe it as like
a small thump as if you're like, no, it feels
like somebody that has fake nails is tapping, but like
it doesn't, it's not. It feels more sore than anything.
You know, those like and other people with TMS will

probably be like, that's not what it feels like at all.
The studies have said like it's pretty much painless. For me,
it just felt sore. It feels like if someone with
with uh fake nails is poking your skin and they
just like at first, it's like, yeah, I can handle that,
but then if they're doing it repeatedly, it starts to
get a little like tender is the word I would

use in that area. That's what it feels like. And
it's just a tiny but it does feel like a
little a mix between a zap and a tap tap. Kay.
Another thing I want to say is you, uh, this
is more because we've we've talked about this obviously why
you're doing the treatment, but sometimes you would kind of
be like exhausted and fatigued after uh some of these treatments.

Was that something that you felt from the beginning or
is it after so many treatments you felt like, okay,
that like it starts to wear on you. I think
it just depended on the day, but it definitely did.
I definitely did feel fatigued certain days. Um, it's kind
of like that feeling when you have a lot of
caffeine and then you're tired after. So that wasn't permanent

and didn't happen all the time, but definitely sometimes. I
And here's the thing, my psych and I we're very
much in communication. So she actually let me come in
in the afternoons, which they have been doing studies on
at different universities as far as people doing it twice
a day. Because I was having no side of no

ill side effects, she allowed me to come in for
free and do an afternoon one because I think I
just needed an extra boost. Again, I've done a lot
of things to try to treat my depression. You know.
She was like, Okay, if you're not having any negative
side effects, I feel okay with you coming in and

doing this for this allotted amount of time. So I
actually did it twice a day. But I think another
question I might have is, so you know, someone might
be listening to this and they're kind of on the
fence of whether or not they should have it. Do
you have any like words of wisdom that you said,
like you should definitely considered it if this or if
not that, or the third a couple of things I

would you can always call and talk to someone on
the phone. They always do free consultations, so you can
look up t MS. If it's not in your immediate area,
it may be worth dry, it may be worth investing it.
And still, and we're talking about people that have tried
multiple avenues to cure their depression. So a lot of

times when you've hit this one, you're really desperate and
you again, like he said last episode, you kind of
would do anything to treat it. And when not in
the same vein. But when my uncle was trying to
battle um he had stomach cancer, my my um aunt

would drive him almost two hours to the treatment place
because they just wanted the best treatment for him. UM.
So I understand that not everyone has that option, but
it might be worth looking into. If even a place is,
you know, farther away from you, definitely have a consultation though,

and talk to them about it. I am not a
licensed professional. I am just somebody who has done a
lot of these treatments who can speak in the same
way that Neil or other people with large platforms have
spoken about it saving their life. So if this saves
somebody's life, then I feel that I've helped in some way,
but again I am constantly Next week where covering E

M d R, which is something else I've done, which
other people have been maybe I'll get some writers and
stuff to talk about it, but other people have been
very vocal of how it helped them. So I think
one thing that I would say, if you're like me
and you're just trying all these different things, to know
that it's okay to constantly you know, like Dr or

Lickman said last episode, it can be a lifetime of
healing and technology is constantly changing. So I have had
many times where I've wanted to give up, but luckily
staying in contact with my psychs and my therapists, it's like,
let's keep trying, Danny. Let's not let's just keep you know,

let's keep working at this and finding something that works
for you. So I just wanted to instill that in
people that there is hope, there's constantly you know. And
on top of that, I was still doing talk therapy.
I feel talk therapy is something I'm always going to
have to do, but it doesn't hit everywhere that it
needs to necessarily for some of us. So that's why

some of these other treatments on top of doing talk
therapy can be beneficial. Yeah, I agree with you. I
think that everyone should be doing talk to therapy. I
think we were talking about that a little last week
where you're just surprised. I think just we as human beings, uh,
hold hold in so much because there's so much of

this suck it up mentality, and really the more you
kind of break it down and look into it, it's
just people want you to carry not only your own burdens,
but then when it comes time to carry their burden.
It's very selfishness that has been amplified in a weird
way with so much uh, with so much social media. Uh,

you know, I just look at it the same way
where like just mere weeks from yelling at people to
just the law and and somehow trying to make it. Uh.
You know, a person of colors fault, they're killed by
the police, they're now outside trying to disobey the law
for the stay at home orders simply because they don't

agree with it, you know you know what I mean,
Like it's not even because there's any noble reason, so
it that just kind of I don't know, it's like
really just I guess It's something I always knew, but
it really just kind of highlighted how much it is
true that people don't necessarily believe in rules or expect rules.
It's more so just that. And I think the same

goes from mental health and on a societal level, we
just think we have to bear this burden. We don't
want to, especially a lot of people are like, oh,
I don't want to bug you out, especially a lot
of I find depressed people feel so much that they
have to take care of others and not themselves, and
often forget to put their mask on first. And that's

why you need to talk to somebody, because you'd be
surprised how simply talking and letting how you feel and
how you think you make other people feel off your
chests will just lift you up. And then I think
Danny's really hitting something home that I want everyone to know.
It's just like, if that doesn't work, don't give up,
just keep keeping keep trying their treatments, don't give up,

keep trying there, just keep fighting. You're better here. Well, yes,
and I wanted to say that goes for therapists, to um.
Some therapists I've clicked with some therapists I have left
and never made another UM appointment therapist to me or
like doctors, they're not perfect there, you know, some of

them are limited in their understanding. UM. A lot of
times it's equated to dating to like finding the right
therapist for you. I do want to say, if you
find someone and you're like, oh, this is not working
for me, find someone else. You know they they're you're
paying them again, you're paying That's how I feel about doctors.
And you're like, how do you deal with with not

being listened to? I'm like, oh, I'm just not going
to see you anymore. You're not listening to me, You're
not doing it for me, and I'm giving you money
every week, Like I'm not going to do that. So UM, definitely,
don't give up on your your search. And I know
that that's really hard when people are like keep getting
help and it's like I'm exhausted. It's kind of like

I said last last week, a lot of times I'm
just exhausted from trying to heal myself, and so you
have to take time out. I think, even if it's
time out from doing therapy or time out from seeking treatment,
it's just like I can't put myself through another thing
one more time. I you know, so taking that time
off and just kind of um letting your family know

and your friends know, and again letting your therapist know.
I let my therapist know, like I said last week,
I do not want to do this, and she was like, okay,
you know um, and she respected that because I've put
in so much work. So one other thing I wanted
to say, if you when you were like, it's so
much easier for us to help other people. One thing
that has helped me in my healing is viewing myself

as a third person. And it's wild how much easier
that is to help myself. So with um, with my depression,
when I was suicidal, it was like, what can we
do to help Danny? This is our homework today. We
need to find a therapist for Danny. We need to
figure out we're not going to give up on her.
I even think of myself sometimes as little Danny. I'm like, well,

little Danny, I imagine the little girl who was like
bullied and having a hard time like in middle school,
and it was like, well, she she had dreams, she
had things that she wanted to do. Am I going
to give up on her. No, I think that this
little Danny who has survived so much deserves a great life.
So I'm not going to give up on her. And
then I don't think of future Danny, and I'm like,

future Danny has so many things she's going to accomplish.
Am I really going to cut her life short and
not allow her to do that? No? But it was
so much easier to see myself as a third person
and helping this third person than like current Danny. It's wild. Wow.
I think that's the perfect note to go out on. So, Danny,

where can people find you? I'm at miss Danny Fernandez
and all the things. UM, please be compassionate. I guess
with if he and I, you know, we're trying to
tackle these subjects. We will have UM licensed professionals on
for some of these episodes, like we did last week
and hopefully next week. But again, I'm just trying to
speak from my experience. I'm not perfect. I'm very flawed.

If I recommended something, you know, again, speak to a
licensed professional. But I hope that this just opened your
mind as far as what other people are doing to
treat depression and PTSD. Yeah, I think that goes without
saying for this and last week's and future episodes, if
there are any like very technical questions that you have
for some of the things we talked about in uh

as it pertains to you specifically, that's going to be
a conversation with a licensed professional. Uh. If you want
to kind of relate on the shared experiences, then that's
something we can talk about with your online But when
it comes for like do you think for me or
I'm experiencing this, yeah, we're gonna always have you. Uh.
And and if you do ask us, we will say, Hey,

you're gonna have to talk to your therapist about that
because we are not licensed professionals. Just want to say
that this is just a conversation based on the data
that's out there and Danny's personal experience. Uh. You know,
we we would we wish we could give you that info,
but it would be irresponsible for us to even try so. Uh.

Shout out to that. And as for me, if you
walt away Twitter and Instagram, if he's on twitchet Superpunch
Monday through Friday, I will see you. And like you
always say on this pod, stay nerdy and stay healthy.

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Dani Fernandez

Dani Fernandez

Ify Nwadiwe

Ify Nwadiwe

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