October 10, 2019 • 41 mins
On matters of African Americans and farming, many narratives have centered the ways in which enslavement, and an assumed progress “off the plantation” have contributed to the apathy or absence of black folks on the land.
In this episode we hear from black farmers and scholars who are challenging those narratives, instead centering resilience, survival and activism at the core of historical narratives around African Americans and agriculture. Featuring Gabrielle Eitienne and Dr. Monica White.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome back to Point of Origin, a podcast about the
world of food worldwide. I'm your host, Stephen Saderfield. This
is our very last episode of season one, and I
would like to thank every one of you for supporting
this podcast. It has been such enriching experience for me
(00:33):
as a host, to talk to so many people for
whom I have such great admiration, and to partner with
a company like I Heart Radio that helps amplify the
work that we'd like to see in the world. So
much gratitude to everyone who made this first season possible.
And before we close out on our final episode of
the season, part two of our series Farming Wild Black
(00:57):
and the second interview with my friend Gabrae al et En.
In our discussion, there is a mention of racial violence
that could be a very upsetting story for some of
our listeners, so I'd like to mention that off top,
and I would also like to say that if you're able,
it is such a powerful story that I do believe
(01:19):
it will be worth your time. Again, i'd like to
thank you all for making the season possible. We are
already hard at work on the second season, and while
I've got you here, a gentle reminder that if you
are enjoying this podcast, the best way to ensure that
we continue to enjoy this platform and share these stories
(01:40):
as if you give us a five star review on iTunes.
Thank you so much for considering, and please enjoy Farming
While Black Part two. Welcome back to Point of Origin.
(02:01):
Today we are focusing on farming Wild Black the many
intricacies of blackness and African americanness in relationship to the land.
Our next guest is the Associate Professor of Environmental Justice
at the University of Wisconsin Madison, Dr Monica White, is
(02:24):
also the author of an amazing book that was just
released in two thousand nineteen called Freedom Farmers, and we
will talk about all of the above today. Monica, thank
you so much for joining us on Point of Origin.
Thank you for the invitation. It's sorry to be here
with you. Let's just get right into the book, Freedom Farmers,
(02:47):
agricultural resistance, and the Black freedom Movement. There's a lot
to unpack in the book, a lot of amazing themes
around blackness and relationship to land. But before we get
into that, can you just tell us what you're impetus
for wanting to write this book was so I was
returning to Detroit to take care of my parents. I
(03:08):
was moving back to Detroit and needed a research topic.
I was going to teach at Wayne State University. And
I knew that there was a robust black farmers movement
that had proceeded the two thousands and really wanted to
sort of capture that, and so joined and met Baba
(03:28):
Malika Kini to do some organizing around around the Detroit
Rebellion Conference and sixty seven Rebellions, sort of recognizing the
history of existence in the city. And I knew the
black folks have been growing food in Detroit for a
long time, my dad, my grandmother, and my sister, and
I knew that the scholarship that was coming out about
the movement about the return to food production were really
(03:50):
missing the black folks, you know, folks who looked like me.
One of the sort of capture what was happening in
that moment, but then also finding that the current, at
least in the two thousand at that moment, needed a
historical frame that was different than what I found when
I looked up the scholarship on what do we know
(04:11):
about Black farmers? A lot of it came from a
deficit approach, and they talked a lot about slavery, tenant farming,
sharecrofting in those exploitative conditions and relationships to the land,
or the way that agriculture used as suppressive. And yet
what I was hearing in Detroit was using agriculture the
strategy of resistance, resilience in other way for liberation, and
so I didn't hear it, and as are now recent
(04:33):
ancestor so any more ins instead, if there's a book
that you want to read, it hasn't been written, then
we're the ones who has to to write it. And
that's where the idea around freedom farmers came from. Knowing
that there had to be other reasons, other frames to
understand black folks in our relationship to the land, and
not seeing it written, but yet hearing him. You know,
(04:58):
you hang out with generational or black folks with net
whose families never left to land, and you hear this
language of being able to feed myself and free myself
for every wental parents as I can free myself when
I can feed myself, and to hear how pul found
that statement was and yet not reading any scholarships to
elevate his philosophy. You know, I felt like this was
(05:21):
the perfect kind of a contribution um to how we
understand our relationship to food production and to the land
more generally. Absolutely so. Obviously in these more oppressive accounts
of our relationship to the land that are rooted and
(05:42):
enslavement have some generational or I guess, period specific elements
to them. Were you finding that this disposition of liberation
was more something about a recent generation or do you
feel that that has been present throughout but we just
(06:04):
haven't been exposed to that ideology? You know, yeah, thank
you for that question. I feel like I consist to
except found all kinds of ways to resist, and yet
our scholarship around resistance strategies has really come from universities,
and so there's been a disconnect between how people resist
and how people study resistance, and so occupying both spaces, right, So,
(06:27):
coming from a community known for resistance and resilience in
Detroit and also joining the academy and feeling like the
university tools could be useful for our liberation, I do
think that there have been all kinds of ways that
we've resisted that has been overlooked. So guess I wanted
to really sort of problematize the way we frame resistance.
(06:49):
You know, we often think about protests, marches, and boycasts,
and those are really almost the only ways that we
as theorists talk about what it means to resist. And
yet this current moment, it shows us other ways to resist.
And I'll just give one example. Here's this horrible situation
that comes Barbecue Betty right now at eleven people fired
up over this viral video from Oakland fired up their
(07:12):
grills tonight to take a stand. The group says they're
tired of people calling police prematurely. They are upset over
a confrontation at a barbecue at Lake Merit. It was
all caught on camera last month. The video is still
getting passed around the internet non stop tonight. What's going on? Nas?
You don't want she doesn't want to talk? Now it's
(07:35):
a link to having a chocolate grill in the park here.
What kind of girl are you not allowed? And why
are you so bent out of shape over them being?
Because it causes extra money from our city and things.
One children get injured because of it. So yet the
open community has just now celebrated a second celebration around
recognizing the potential calamity of the situation, but embracing that
(07:57):
as a celebration or blackness, and so are like the
scholarship is behind the ways that we resist and Freedom
Farmers was an effort to sort of show the links
between the historic resistance using food and food production. So
we talked about the seeds in our hair that we
carried over the Middle passages. We talked about the demand,
(08:17):
our demand for provision grounds during slavery. We talked about marketing,
We talked about all the various ways historically bartering and
creating these spaces to celebrate culture or using food as
a part of that have been used historically as a
part of our our freedom strategy. I'm curious what you
think the role of some institutions have been in further
(08:41):
perpetuating this exploitative narrative, whether that be the university or
the food system, Like, what are some of those institutional
pressure points. Yeah, I just think everybody who's not basically
I mean not to be not just you know, not
a broad brush. I think that Samananda dj argues the
(09:04):
danger of a single story, right, So to come up
with a single story and it becomes easy to grab
ahold of it and then run with it. And so
those of us that are currently involved in dismantling that
single story historically, and I think that I can't point
to an institution that isn't responsible for oversimplifying Black folks
relation to the ships and through land. It's you know,
(09:25):
the university, it's the add community, it's you know, in
some ways, it's even how we tell the story of
civil rights with no ill intention necessarily, right. I think
that you know, that danger of the single story means
that there's certain ideas that get shared, and then once
that is shared, it is assumed that's the only narrative.
And there comes somebody like me who says that can't
(09:46):
be the only story. And so therefore, how do we
unearth some of the other ways to to to interrogate,
to scholarship, find the data to really make a different case.
It was not just my research question was unearthed in
this movement. So I left Detroit and the Detroit last
(10:09):
community prostituting that was teach me language like through sovereignty,
food security. This wasn't something I had taken at school.
I understood what it means to resist and said the
social movements and so marrying my understanding of social movements
and the Detroit Black communities for securities classes, her soon
of speech on food sovereignty really helped me see that
(10:29):
what they were doing wasn't new. It was just a
new in this moment in the particular rights because they
inherited a legacy of resistance and resilience using foods as strategy.
And so that was really good. I was trying to capture.
But yes, if you think of which entity is guilty,
I don't know if one that isn't in attuchu wating
simness around agriculture as as oppressive and not just a
(10:51):
last folks and talking about sovereign tee of food that
is really a conversation that is central to land. How
do you reconcile for black folks who are are with
(11:11):
you intellectually and saying like yeah, we you know, there
are many stories to be told about our relationship to
the land here, but one problem we don't have any land.
Yeah you have great questions. Um, so absolutely, folks are
asking a question if it's My approach has always been
as an asset based approach, right, So I think that's
a different orientation that I take to scholarship, which is,
(11:35):
every community has something upon which to build, what are
those assets? And then how to rebuild on that, which
I think is a different approach. So for me, every
community has something upon whished to build. And so if
I may not have access to land in terms of
land ownership, what are other ways that we can obtain
access to those message or mechanisms to to grow. My
dear friend Dr Cooper talks about individual ownership leads to
(11:58):
individual volner ability, and so collective ownership is an important
component to make sure that it's olidified. I just talked
to folks at the Prince Duty Theological Seminary, and these
are folks who run their own churches. And Reverend Hebrew
Brown talks about how black church ownership and the land
that black churches you know, have access to, is an
(12:18):
important part of like a land trust right. And so
what happens is we use the church own land as
a part of our food production, resurgence and reconnection in
those particular chimes of late and you know, I mean
I'm telling from a frame. You know, in Detroit, where
we have access to a lot of land, a lot
of that land is contaminated. And so how do we
restore the land, how do we share access? So you
(12:40):
talk about community lands trust, you talk about soil mediation,
and then for those who don't have access to land land,
they are all kinds of beautiful techniques of of growing
indoors that don't require a lot of money. But bots
are growing in you know, cut up tunated bottles on walls,
(13:02):
you know. And so I think that there are lots
of ways, creative ways that folks are growing using various
medium like, you know, maybe a hydropondical, you know, something
along those lines. And there's the wine range of housefolks
accessing land. And so let's just be also clear figure
are still who like folks that are farming in the South,
who have land in a generational that is you inherited
(13:23):
land and really trying to find some collective ways to
make sure that we retain actors to death which we
have without losing another angor welcome back to point of origin.
(13:43):
Let's talk more about Detroit, because obviously you've learned a
lot there and it has been kind of an epicenter
for the revival of urban farming across the country. What
are the factors environmental factors of Detroit I'm talking are
like socially and culturally that have made it so amenable
(14:04):
to this urban farming movement. For the black folks who
were in the South, who contested any form of this
racialized exploitive relationship to land, there would be threatened, their
lives would be threatened. At night, they would get the
Birmingham and by more in that we're in Detroit. So
there was a really clear line between Detroit and Alabama
(14:25):
in terms of the migration. And I would also argue
based on what farmers and the reason told me, especially
about what we're happening in leth County, where black folks
were especially politicized, right radically politicize whole many of whom
ended up in Detroit. So one I think that there
was a political connection that exists between Alabama and Detroit.
(14:47):
There really hasn't been examined. To my preference. I feel
like there's a lot that can be examined in terms
of understanding s particular black radical orientation in Detroit. Additionally,
we took our black out of gudeology, but we also
took our feed and our knowledge of food production, and
so our generation was returning where our parents had migrated
(15:10):
we wanted to make sure that our children and access
in nature and rich food, and so that agricultural knowledge
was one generation removed. But we also knew that you
are clearly providing for ourselves and themselves. And so I
do think that there was some as a strategy, some
connection that wasn't too far fetched. And I also think
that for me personally to try to put the world
(15:32):
on wheels, and once the automobile crisis collapse, then folks
were forced to sort of think about, well, what do
we know, what do we remember? What can we reconnect
as a strategy to build resilient communities around food production?
And then that conversation the food is just ever present, Um,
how do we make sure that we not only feed
our families, but feed and build our communities and build
(15:55):
community health and wellness. And so I just feel like
there are those kind of ideas that we're perfect termination
for what we see happening in Detroit now. Definitely, and
I totally support your continued work in following the trajectory
of the black radicals from the South to Detroit. I
think that is super interesting. I want to ask you
(16:17):
about land reparation. You know it is somewhat being censored politically,
at least in a way that it hasn't um in
my lifetime. What are your ideas about a land based
reparation in terms of effective policy, like how it could
actually happen, and or whether or not you feel this
(16:39):
is the right kind of prioritization for advocates of food
justice and environmental justice. So I would say that the
scholarship around land dispossession, especially a black folks, we have
to respond to that right in order for a society
to move forward. I do think that reconciling task historical
(17:00):
wrongs for the stolen labor and the stolen land, including
you know, indigenous First Nations folks, But that has to
be a part of how we move forward as a whole.
I don't know what mechanism, what form that take. I
think that any time a nation and a world has
(17:21):
created wealth and there are communities that have suffered from
that wealth of the extraction of those resources, those people,
those riches, that land, there has to be some reconciling
of that, and reparations is an important part of that conversation.
I think that the case can absolutely be made and
(17:43):
has been made more distinctively now in this Sutork moments
than I've ever seen, you know, supporting black lead institutions,
both of the educational nature like in land Grand institutions,
and supporting black lead organizations that are working to respond
to the needs of folks around food and land. Outside
of that, I don't know enough I've read about it,
but I also love that qualified to speak on the distermination.
(18:06):
What that looks like, well, oftentimes that is the wisest
answer to give, and I completely um, that is totally adequate.
One last question for you, and again it is about
your your latest book, Freedom Farmers. Such a powerful book.
I mean really, I think you know, I feel pretty
(18:27):
well versed in a lot of these conversations, but you know,
you had such clarity from the onset and trying to
further ideas around black folks relationship to the land, especially
African Americans. So I'm wondering, do you have any specific
hopes or directions for for the readers of this text. Yes,
(18:48):
so I wrote this book for you, I wrote this
book for us. I wrote this book because I wanted
to give us some sense that we don't have to
reinvent a strategy that we can inherit the legacy of
our an sensors and previous generations in terms of how
do we get free? And so for me, the book
and all that it took to write it and all
(19:10):
of the intentions around it were really so that we
could think about our relationship connections to the land, our
responsibility to the environment, right to the planet, and our
connection and responsibility to each other. And so for me,
a great outcome would be to allow the book to
complicate what we thought our relationship was, use it as
(19:32):
um inspiration for us to reconnect to the land and
to each other, and to figure out what this new generation,
what this generation commitment will be in this legacy as
you read, so, I'm excited to see what we do
in this generation as we're grappling with how do we
make sure that our communities are cared for and using
food at the beginning conversation, but connecting the conversations around
(19:56):
food to conversations of land, conversations of a education, conversations
with healthcare. But just because this is our history, this
this is ours, and I want us to own it.
I want us to reclaim that. I want us to
embrace it at least figure out a way forward. Amen
to all that. Well, thank you so much for this resource.
Looking forward to your continued research and publishings on this topic.
(20:21):
Monica White, Associate Professor of Environmental Studies at the University
of Wisconsin and Madison and author of Freedom Farmers, Agricultural Resistance,
and the Black Freedom Movement. Thank you for joining us
today on point of origin. I really really appreciate it.
Thank you so much. Fry too myself. Thank you. All right,
I'll talk to you soon. Welcome back to point of origin.
(21:07):
Today we have a very special guest from Holly Springs,
North Carolina, just outside of Raleigh, Gabrielle Etienne, who is
a cultural preservationist, which is the perfect umbrella term for
her as she is a gardener, farmer, cook, community organizer. Gabrielle,
(21:29):
thank you so much for joining us today on point
of origin. Hi, thank you for having me, which is
really exciting. Of course, so today we're talking to a
really cross section of black folks who are involved in
agriculture and different capacities across the US, and we wanted
(21:52):
to talk to you because well a couple of reasons.
But first of all, I just really as a as
a fan of your work, love, the way that you
express your relationship to the land, and how your embodiment
on the land in the garden, when you're harvesting, when
(22:13):
you're cooking, just feel so grounded. I wanted to talk
to you about your relationship to the land and how
you started to develop this practice. Mm hmm, okay. I
don't feel like I'm anything new. I am really standing
kind of on the shoulders of a lot of women,
(22:34):
so thank you for that. My relationship to the land
really kind of jumped off when I was living in
New York, kind of seeking connection. I was really homesick,
and I would come home a lot, and every time
I would come home, I would get in the garden
(22:55):
with my grandfather and with his brother, my great uncle, Andrew,
and um. I started to learn these things about my family,
about my family's history, about you know, just access just
our beautiful relationship with our land and the land around
here within like a ten mile radius of where I
(23:17):
lived for a long time, and I just started feeling
way more grounded, way more connected to who I am,
but also to like who my family is and the
importance of our own stories A little I guess history is.
(23:38):
I was working in fashion for a while and I
ended up just feeling some of the traumas of working
like corporate, working in New York, working in you know,
just fast paced corporate America. And when I transitioned out
of fashion, I started working in food and I was
working on the line I'm in um this gastro pub
(24:02):
and the leat packing, and I was also doing a
lot of food storytelling for different brands and chefs, and
one of those chefs was J. J. Johnson, and his
work kind of aligned with my family's work in a
way that I didn't expect. And the more I started
to uncover with the work I was doing with him,
(24:23):
the more, you know, I bring stuff home. And I
remember my grandfather's brother, older brother Herbert, when I showed
him as rice that was from Trinidad, that was an
African strain of rice. I remember him being like, oh,
I remember when Grandpa John used to grow rice in
the yard and we used to harvest it. And he
talked about winnowing, and he talked about you know, his
(24:47):
his memories were vague because he was a little boy,
but he remembered these key things and that's how the
rice got on the table. And that really like made me.
It just woke something up in me around like place,
and I started to think about, oh wow, well what
were we before we were here too. To have that
knowledge in that technology, you have to you know, be
(25:10):
in certain areas. So just discovery after discovery kind of
brought me back here because I was really focused on
telling other folk stories and digging up this history through food,
through food, research through food kind of art and you
know development. Thank you for sharing that. That is a
(25:33):
very dense journey that I would like to further unpacked.
So J J. Johnson, if people don't know, is a
young ish millennial chef in New York. He just opened
a new rice centric restaurant called Field Trip. And j
(25:58):
J also worked with at Cecil's, which is a pretty
legendary spot in Harlem. So he is a very prominent
young chef. When you are talking about, you know, the
rice being part of the epiphany for you, I'm assuming
that you're talking about when you were working with j J.
(26:20):
And he was kind of also cultivating this vision around
a rice based restaurant. Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, So
that's so crazy to think about how that unfolded. But
he was researching a strain of rice called Areza glab
Arima and Glenn Roberts from Ansonville helping him with that
(26:45):
and providing him grains. And Glenn while I was working
with JJ really but can kind of a mentor for
me in the space because we can nerd out about
like agriculture and grain facts and suns at goals, and
he just put me onto so much stuff that really
likes sent me down this mildly crazy rabbit hole of research.
(27:09):
And can you say, um, what Anton Mills is for
people who don't know, Oh, it's a it's a grain
mill based in South Carolina. Um. They do various heirloom
and land race grains and corn and it's a farm.
It's a mill. And Glenn is the one who founded
(27:30):
that and is an awesome farmer and just really on
the ground doing the work. So basically we were working
on some concepts so well, it was the grain concept,
which initially wasn't field trip, it was a different name altogether.
But we were, you know, brainstorming and mapping things out
(27:51):
and kind of came to the rice is culture point
of view when we were doing this work, because every
culture has has grains on the table, and it just
seemed like this unifying crop. So finding like those stories
that were interstwined in that, and and reading about like
even Japanese grains of rice and black rice, and you know,
(28:15):
folklore around these various crops, because all these crops have
their own stories and their own folklore. And I think
that's what really tied me in because I grew up
hearing folklore, and I grew up hearing stories from my elders.
My grandfather still will pop up and like when he's ready,
he will share, he will share a story quick. Um.
(28:38):
It was really beautiful to like learn about our rice
and our our grain history and some of the other
grains that you know, I read in books. I remember
the first mention I think I ever read was in
Jessica the Harris's book The Africa Cookbooks. She talks about
grains out of Africa, and that really was like, oh, okay,
(29:02):
I think as an American, as an African American who
grew up in the South, I didn't really know much
about us having our own crops and the fact that
a lot of those things came from Africa that wet now,
you know, growing up, you just don't think about that stuff.
But through like a lot of the literature that I
started reading and the works of like Cranelia Bailey and
(29:24):
Vernemet Grosner can really like learn a lot about our
just our history with agriculture and seedkeeping and how important
those crops were to us and to our stories into
the passing down of the house and the whose You know,
I'm really interested in what you're saying about story and folklore.
(29:45):
Obviously it is central to the African diasporic tradition. And
your grandfather he's a gardener, right, I think that's who
I've seen on the grand before in the garden. Well,
so my grandfather is I mean, you could call him
a gardener, but really he he and his brothers, all
(30:06):
of his siblings, they grew up farming. Yeah, I think
in reference to my grandfather's generation, we're talking about hundreds
of acres of land. Uh is gardening? Right? That is
definitely not gardening. And so I think that's the kind
(30:26):
of the distinct difference, just like and also what they
were growing and why they were growing. You know, it
wasn't the reason that I'm growing necessarily now, it was
out of necessity. And their parents they were like, Okay,
we're doing this, so you're gonna get this work to
come on, You're gonna pick three hundred towns of cotton today,
(30:47):
Like this is the work that they were doing growing up.
And so their relationship to farming growing up is very
different from what I see in them now as they
work an acre a lot of land and treed everybody
around us and my my grandfather's brother Andrew, has kind
of been my my since in the field because he
(31:10):
holds a lot of the old history in my family,
which is crazy because he's the baby brother. And it's
when we're in the garden that we're able to talk
about those things, or one one's kitchen that he's sharing
those things, or when we're showing dried seeds. You know,
that's when those stories really come to life. Reach inside
(31:34):
and get out to how meditates you need at last,
fear for week or two three, you get out altering
you need where you're keeping how Yeah. So my grandfather
is an engineer and an inventor, and he it's just
an incredible inventor and kind of magician of sorts because
(31:57):
he can turn anything into something that's how to keep
I mean that in the sense of he rebuilds the tractors,
so like that's kind of his relationship to the garden
with Uncle Andrew and I. He is our mechanic engineer,
and we do the planting and the harvest thing for
(32:19):
the most part, and so whenever thing's work down, it's
in his shop, which is located right behind our house.
In terms of proximity, it's kind of like we have
everything we kind of need within like the street that
is very powerful. And I have to say, do you
(32:43):
have any stories off the top of your head that
have been passed down to you around food and folklore?
M yes, I think my stories that have been passed
directly to me from my relatives on more memories. So
the games that they would play as children when they
(33:03):
were out in the field. What is it when it's
peanuts season? There's Jack in the bush? Is a game
that they used to play, which that sounds like an
old person's game. Jack in the bush? You know that
was before So what is jack in the bush? It's
(33:24):
a game And the way it was explained to me,
they would have peanuts, you know, one would be the
guesser and one would be the I guess the holder
of the peanuts, and so they would hide them in
their hands and the guesser would have to, you know,
approximate how many peanuts are in your hand, and if
(33:48):
it was wrong, if it was over, you had to
give them the peanuts, and if it was under, they
had to make up the difference. It was, Oh God,
thankfully I've recorded these things. If you know how many
you have in your hand, you have. I said, if
you had five peanuts in your hands and you said,
Jack is in the bush, you know, other person said
(34:10):
cut him down? You say how many licks? You're guessing
how many peanuts in your hand. If you said you
had five in your hand and the man said ten,
well give me five and make me teen. But if
he guess exactly what was in your hand, you had
(34:35):
to give him to him. Like hearing the way that
they formulated James and created you know, their all reality,
even in like kind of hard times, and like the
way they just created these worlds. It's really interesting. Hard
(34:58):
to house all of these all of these things that
they created. But I think that's what made me pursue filmmaking,
like as a medium to record these things and keep
these things and pass these things. You chronicle your life
in your family's life with such joy, and there's such
(35:21):
intimacy there. Do you feel like compelled or that it's
part of your work to to share that that intimacy
and that relationship that you have with your family. I
don't know that I always have felt compelled to like
share that necessarily. However, I think in the process of
sharing that I've realized how much it's opened up for
(35:45):
other people, the possibilities of what your relationship to your
elders can be and kind of this inheritance that they
hold that is storytelling, that is recipes, that is you know,
whatever form it takes, it just opening up communication. But
that these things can be passed down. That feels very important,
(36:07):
especially you know, as a form of preservation. You're right,
the preservation is so important because when you think about
how quickly that generational knowledge has been lost, it is
it's because we we don't talk explicitly with our elders
oftentimes about their remembrances and relationships to the land, and
(36:32):
unfortunately often times we you know, that land is not
in our families in the same way, you know, which
is part of that generational loss is of memory and
also a place. The fact that you do have access
both to the memories and the place is powerful, and
we are grateful that you share it with all of us.
(36:53):
So what are you working on right now that has
you most in a drive? Mm hmm, yeah. So, Revival
Taste Collective is the name of an online journal that
I started a few a couple of years ago when
I was living in New York and I was making
(37:14):
these visits to the South and I went to Staffalo
Island for the first time when I started this journal,
and I got a chance to meet Clinelia Bailey's family
and be on their land and learn about their ancestral
connections to the land and place and the things that
they grow. So all of that was kind of a
(37:35):
part of my discovery of myself and my own story,
or at the start of it. So I started putting
that in various like random journals online, and um, that
was the start of it, and I kind of put
that on the back burner when I was in New
York and when I made the decision to move home
with intention to preserve our land, to tell these stories,
(37:59):
to preserve these stories, Revival Taste Collective felt like the
way that I was going to do that the place
that I was going to have these stories and bring
people together in order to taste the food, in order
to see the seeds and feel the feeds and maybe
take seeds home, but also commune over storytelling. And so
(38:20):
I'm really excited because we've been doing a few things
here on like what I call the Wardard Homestead, which
is our land here where our house, where the shop is,
and where the garden is. I'm gonna start a series
of events through these journal entries basically online. So the
things that I've been writing about that I've been sharing,
(38:42):
We're actually gonna like bring them to life through dinners
and through community cinema and screenings of independent films and
documentary films and things that are important to the culture,
so that the kids in the community have access to
this knowledge and they have access to the art. And
we did one screen already of my film Tall Grass,
which is, you know, the stories from my community, some
(39:05):
of the inheritance in the form of growing and keeping,
and also what's happening around here in terms of the
highway and how that's cutting into our land as well
as displacing our elders. So there's a lot hidden in
the grass and and this is kind of shining a
light on those things, on some of those stories. Well,
(39:28):
so crucial that you are creating this space and that
you have this relationship to the elders, and I mean, yeah,
thank God that they're they're sharing, and that you're documenting.
It is a gift that extends far beyond your family.
So will you be making like an announcement. Are you
gonna do it in series or do you think it
will be like a one off thing where we'll just
(39:49):
get like an update, So via Instagram that's the newspaper.
That's how you do it exactly. Okay, give us your
g handle so we can know where to find. Okay,
it's my name, Gabrielle g A b r I E
l l E Underscore at g M E I t
(40:10):
I E m n E Gabrielle et t N. Cultural
preservationist in Apex, North Carolina, doing amazing, amazing work. Thank
you for joining us today on point of origin. Thank
you so much, Stephen. This is wonderful. H m m
(40:32):
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m m m m And
that's it for this episode. Point of Origin is a
podcast from My Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine executive
produced by Christopher Hasiotis and hosted by me Stephen Saderfield.
(40:56):
Special thanks to Cat Hoong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins,
and a very special thanks to my business partner, Wetstone
co founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks
mel and thanks to all of you for supporting wet
Stone and listening to the Point of Origin podcast for
all of the latest on all things point of Origin.
(41:19):
You can follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine
or online at wet Stone Magazine dot com. We'll see
you next week at the Point of Origin. M
Welcome back to Point of Origin, a podcast about the
world of food worldwide. I'm your host, Stephen Saderfield. This
is our very last episode of season one, and I
would like to thank every one of you for supporting
this podcast. It has been such enriching experience for me
(00:33):
as a host, to talk to so many people for
whom I have such great admiration, and to partner with
a company like I Heart Radio that helps amplify the
work that we'd like to see in the world. So
much gratitude to everyone who made this first season possible.
And before we close out on our final episode of
the season, part two of our series Farming Wild Black
(00:57):
and the second interview with my friend Gabrae al et En.
In our discussion, there is a mention of racial violence
that could be a very upsetting story for some of
our listeners, so I'd like to mention that off top,
and I would also like to say that if you're able,
it is such a powerful story that I do believe
(01:19):
it will be worth your time. Again, i'd like to
thank you all for making the season possible. We are
already hard at work on the second season, and while
I've got you here, a gentle reminder that if you
are enjoying this podcast, the best way to ensure that
we continue to enjoy this platform and share these stories
(01:40):
as if you give us a five star review on iTunes.
Thank you so much for considering, and please enjoy Farming
While Black Part two. Welcome back to Point of Origin.
(02:01):
Today we are focusing on farming Wild Black the many
intricacies of blackness and African americanness in relationship to the land.
Our next guest is the Associate Professor of Environmental Justice
at the University of Wisconsin Madison, Dr Monica White, is
(02:24):
also the author of an amazing book that was just
released in two thousand nineteen called Freedom Farmers, and we
will talk about all of the above today. Monica, thank
you so much for joining us on Point of Origin.
Thank you for the invitation. It's sorry to be here
with you. Let's just get right into the book, Freedom Farmers,
(02:47):
agricultural resistance, and the Black freedom Movement. There's a lot
to unpack in the book, a lot of amazing themes
around blackness and relationship to land. But before we get
into that, can you just tell us what you're impetus
for wanting to write this book was so I was
returning to Detroit to take care of my parents. I
(03:08):
was moving back to Detroit and needed a research topic.
I was going to teach at Wayne State University. And
I knew that there was a robust black farmers movement
that had proceeded the two thousands and really wanted to
sort of capture that, and so joined and met Baba
(03:28):
Malika Kini to do some organizing around around the Detroit
Rebellion Conference and sixty seven Rebellions, sort of recognizing the
history of existence in the city. And I knew the
black folks have been growing food in Detroit for a
long time, my dad, my grandmother, and my sister, and
I knew that the scholarship that was coming out about
the movement about the return to food production were really
(03:50):
missing the black folks, you know, folks who looked like me.
One of the sort of capture what was happening in
that moment, but then also finding that the current, at
least in the two thousand at that moment, needed a
historical frame that was different than what I found when
I looked up the scholarship on what do we know
(04:11):
about Black farmers? A lot of it came from a
deficit approach, and they talked a lot about slavery, tenant farming,
sharecrofting in those exploitative conditions and relationships to the land,
or the way that agriculture used as suppressive. And yet
what I was hearing in Detroit was using agriculture the
strategy of resistance, resilience in other way for liberation, and
so I didn't hear it, and as are now recent
(04:33):
ancestor so any more ins instead, if there's a book
that you want to read, it hasn't been written, then
we're the ones who has to to write it. And
that's where the idea around freedom farmers came from. Knowing
that there had to be other reasons, other frames to
understand black folks in our relationship to the land, and
not seeing it written, but yet hearing him. You know,
(04:58):
you hang out with generational or black folks with net
whose families never left to land, and you hear this
language of being able to feed myself and free myself
for every wental parents as I can free myself when
I can feed myself, and to hear how pul found
that statement was and yet not reading any scholarships to
elevate his philosophy. You know, I felt like this was
(05:21):
the perfect kind of a contribution um to how we
understand our relationship to food production and to the land
more generally. Absolutely so. Obviously in these more oppressive accounts
of our relationship to the land that are rooted and
(05:42):
enslavement have some generational or I guess, period specific elements
to them. Were you finding that this disposition of liberation
was more something about a recent generation or do you
feel that that has been present throughout but we just
(06:04):
haven't been exposed to that ideology? You know, yeah, thank
you for that question. I feel like I consist to
except found all kinds of ways to resist, and yet
our scholarship around resistance strategies has really come from universities,
and so there's been a disconnect between how people resist
and how people study resistance, and so occupying both spaces, right, So,
(06:27):
coming from a community known for resistance and resilience in
Detroit and also joining the academy and feeling like the
university tools could be useful for our liberation, I do
think that there have been all kinds of ways that
we've resisted that has been overlooked. So guess I wanted
to really sort of problematize the way we frame resistance.
(06:49):
You know, we often think about protests, marches, and boycasts,
and those are really almost the only ways that we
as theorists talk about what it means to resist. And
yet this current moment, it shows us other ways to resist.
And I'll just give one example. Here's this horrible situation
that comes Barbecue Betty right now at eleven people fired
up over this viral video from Oakland fired up their
(07:12):
grills tonight to take a stand. The group says they're
tired of people calling police prematurely. They are upset over
a confrontation at a barbecue at Lake Merit. It was
all caught on camera last month. The video is still
getting passed around the internet non stop tonight. What's going on? Nas?
You don't want she doesn't want to talk? Now it's
(07:35):
a link to having a chocolate grill in the park here.
What kind of girl are you not allowed? And why
are you so bent out of shape over them being?
Because it causes extra money from our city and things.
One children get injured because of it. So yet the
open community has just now celebrated a second celebration around
recognizing the potential calamity of the situation, but embracing that
(07:57):
as a celebration or blackness, and so are like the
scholarship is behind the ways that we resist and Freedom
Farmers was an effort to sort of show the links
between the historic resistance using food and food production. So
we talked about the seeds in our hair that we
carried over the Middle passages. We talked about the demand,
(08:17):
our demand for provision grounds during slavery. We talked about marketing,
We talked about all the various ways historically bartering and
creating these spaces to celebrate culture or using food as
a part of that have been used historically as a
part of our our freedom strategy. I'm curious what you
think the role of some institutions have been in further
(08:41):
perpetuating this exploitative narrative, whether that be the university or
the food system, Like, what are some of those institutional
pressure points. Yeah, I just think everybody who's not basically
I mean not to be not just you know, not
a broad brush. I think that Samananda dj argues the
(09:04):
danger of a single story, right, So to come up
with a single story and it becomes easy to grab
ahold of it and then run with it. And so
those of us that are currently involved in dismantling that
single story historically, and I think that I can't point
to an institution that isn't responsible for oversimplifying Black folks
relation to the ships and through land. It's you know,
(09:25):
the university, it's the add community, it's you know, in
some ways, it's even how we tell the story of
civil rights with no ill intention necessarily, right. I think
that you know, that danger of the single story means
that there's certain ideas that get shared, and then once
that is shared, it is assumed that's the only narrative.
And there comes somebody like me who says that can't
(09:46):
be the only story. And so therefore, how do we
unearth some of the other ways to to to interrogate,
to scholarship, find the data to really make a different case.
It was not just my research question was unearthed in
this movement. So I left Detroit and the Detroit last
(10:09):
community prostituting that was teach me language like through sovereignty,
food security. This wasn't something I had taken at school.
I understood what it means to resist and said the
social movements and so marrying my understanding of social movements
and the Detroit Black communities for securities classes, her soon
of speech on food sovereignty really helped me see that
(10:29):
what they were doing wasn't new. It was just a
new in this moment in the particular rights because they
inherited a legacy of resistance and resilience using foods as strategy.
And so that was really good. I was trying to capture.
But yes, if you think of which entity is guilty,
I don't know if one that isn't in attuchu wating
simness around agriculture as as oppressive and not just a
(10:51):
last folks and talking about sovereign tee of food that
is really a conversation that is central to land. How
do you reconcile for black folks who are are with
(11:11):
you intellectually and saying like yeah, we you know, there
are many stories to be told about our relationship to
the land here, but one problem we don't have any land.
Yeah you have great questions. Um, so absolutely, folks are
asking a question if it's My approach has always been
as an asset based approach, right, So I think that's
a different orientation that I take to scholarship, which is,
(11:35):
every community has something upon which to build, what are
those assets? And then how to rebuild on that, which
I think is a different approach. So for me, every
community has something upon whished to build. And so if
I may not have access to land in terms of
land ownership, what are other ways that we can obtain
access to those message or mechanisms to to grow. My
dear friend Dr Cooper talks about individual ownership leads to
(11:58):
individual volner ability, and so collective ownership is an important
component to make sure that it's olidified. I just talked
to folks at the Prince Duty Theological Seminary, and these
are folks who run their own churches. And Reverend Hebrew
Brown talks about how black church ownership and the land
that black churches you know, have access to, is an
(12:18):
important part of like a land trust right. And so
what happens is we use the church own land as
a part of our food production, resurgence and reconnection in
those particular chimes of late and you know, I mean
I'm telling from a frame. You know, in Detroit, where
we have access to a lot of land, a lot
of that land is contaminated. And so how do we
restore the land, how do we share access? So you
(12:40):
talk about community lands trust, you talk about soil mediation,
and then for those who don't have access to land land,
they are all kinds of beautiful techniques of of growing
indoors that don't require a lot of money. But bots
are growing in you know, cut up tunated bottles on walls,
(13:02):
you know. And so I think that there are lots
of ways, creative ways that folks are growing using various
medium like, you know, maybe a hydropondical, you know, something
along those lines. And there's the wine range of housefolks
accessing land. And so let's just be also clear figure
are still who like folks that are farming in the South,
who have land in a generational that is you inherited
(13:23):
land and really trying to find some collective ways to
make sure that we retain actors to death which we
have without losing another angor welcome back to point of origin.
(13:43):
Let's talk more about Detroit, because obviously you've learned a
lot there and it has been kind of an epicenter
for the revival of urban farming across the country. What
are the factors environmental factors of Detroit I'm talking are
like socially and culturally that have made it so amenable
(14:04):
to this urban farming movement. For the black folks who
were in the South, who contested any form of this
racialized exploitive relationship to land, there would be threatened, their
lives would be threatened. At night, they would get the
Birmingham and by more in that we're in Detroit. So
there was a really clear line between Detroit and Alabama
(14:25):
in terms of the migration. And I would also argue
based on what farmers and the reason told me, especially
about what we're happening in leth County, where black folks
were especially politicized, right radically politicize whole many of whom
ended up in Detroit. So one I think that there
was a political connection that exists between Alabama and Detroit.
(14:47):
There really hasn't been examined. To my preference. I feel
like there's a lot that can be examined in terms
of understanding s particular black radical orientation in Detroit. Additionally,
we took our black out of gudeology, but we also
took our feed and our knowledge of food production, and
so our generation was returning where our parents had migrated
(15:10):
we wanted to make sure that our children and access
in nature and rich food, and so that agricultural knowledge
was one generation removed. But we also knew that you
are clearly providing for ourselves and themselves. And so I
do think that there was some as a strategy, some
connection that wasn't too far fetched. And I also think
that for me personally to try to put the world
(15:32):
on wheels, and once the automobile crisis collapse, then folks
were forced to sort of think about, well, what do
we know, what do we remember? What can we reconnect
as a strategy to build resilient communities around food production?
And then that conversation the food is just ever present, Um,
how do we make sure that we not only feed
our families, but feed and build our communities and build
(15:55):
community health and wellness. And so I just feel like
there are those kind of ideas that we're perfect termination
for what we see happening in Detroit now. Definitely, and
I totally support your continued work in following the trajectory
of the black radicals from the South to Detroit. I
think that is super interesting. I want to ask you
(16:17):
about land reparation. You know it is somewhat being censored politically,
at least in a way that it hasn't um in
my lifetime. What are your ideas about a land based
reparation in terms of effective policy, like how it could
actually happen, and or whether or not you feel this
(16:39):
is the right kind of prioritization for advocates of food
justice and environmental justice. So I would say that the
scholarship around land dispossession, especially a black folks, we have
to respond to that right in order for a society
to move forward. I do think that reconciling task historical
(17:00):
wrongs for the stolen labor and the stolen land, including
you know, indigenous First Nations folks, But that has to
be a part of how we move forward as a whole.
I don't know what mechanism, what form that take. I
think that any time a nation and a world has
(17:21):
created wealth and there are communities that have suffered from
that wealth of the extraction of those resources, those people,
those riches, that land, there has to be some reconciling
of that, and reparations is an important part of that conversation.
I think that the case can absolutely be made and
(17:43):
has been made more distinctively now in this Sutork moments
than I've ever seen, you know, supporting black lead institutions,
both of the educational nature like in land Grand institutions,
and supporting black lead organizations that are working to respond
to the needs of folks around food and land. Outside
of that, I don't know enough I've read about it,
but I also love that qualified to speak on the distermination.
(18:06):
What that looks like, well, oftentimes that is the wisest
answer to give, and I completely um, that is totally adequate.
One last question for you, and again it is about
your your latest book, Freedom Farmers. Such a powerful book.
I mean really, I think you know, I feel pretty
(18:27):
well versed in a lot of these conversations, but you know,
you had such clarity from the onset and trying to
further ideas around black folks relationship to the land, especially
African Americans. So I'm wondering, do you have any specific
hopes or directions for for the readers of this text. Yes,
(18:48):
so I wrote this book for you, I wrote this
book for us. I wrote this book because I wanted
to give us some sense that we don't have to
reinvent a strategy that we can inherit the legacy of
our an sensors and previous generations in terms of how
do we get free? And so for me, the book
and all that it took to write it and all
(19:10):
of the intentions around it were really so that we
could think about our relationship connections to the land, our
responsibility to the environment, right to the planet, and our
connection and responsibility to each other. And so for me,
a great outcome would be to allow the book to
complicate what we thought our relationship was, use it as
(19:32):
um inspiration for us to reconnect to the land and
to each other, and to figure out what this new generation,
what this generation commitment will be in this legacy as
you read, so, I'm excited to see what we do
in this generation as we're grappling with how do we
make sure that our communities are cared for and using
food at the beginning conversation, but connecting the conversations around
(19:56):
food to conversations of land, conversations of a education, conversations
with healthcare. But just because this is our history, this
this is ours, and I want us to own it.
I want us to reclaim that. I want us to
embrace it at least figure out a way forward. Amen
to all that. Well, thank you so much for this resource.
Looking forward to your continued research and publishings on this topic.
(20:21):
Monica White, Associate Professor of Environmental Studies at the University
of Wisconsin and Madison and author of Freedom Farmers, Agricultural Resistance,
and the Black Freedom Movement. Thank you for joining us
today on point of origin. I really really appreciate it.
Thank you so much. Fry too myself. Thank you. All right,
I'll talk to you soon. Welcome back to point of origin.
(21:07):
Today we have a very special guest from Holly Springs,
North Carolina, just outside of Raleigh, Gabrielle Etienne, who is
a cultural preservationist, which is the perfect umbrella term for
her as she is a gardener, farmer, cook, community organizer. Gabrielle,
(21:29):
thank you so much for joining us today on point
of origin. Hi, thank you for having me, which is
really exciting. Of course, so today we're talking to a
really cross section of black folks who are involved in
agriculture and different capacities across the US, and we wanted
(21:52):
to talk to you because well a couple of reasons.
But first of all, I just really as a as
a fan of your work, love, the way that you
express your relationship to the land, and how your embodiment
on the land in the garden, when you're harvesting, when
(22:13):
you're cooking, just feel so grounded. I wanted to talk
to you about your relationship to the land and how
you started to develop this practice. Mm hmm, okay. I
don't feel like I'm anything new. I am really standing
kind of on the shoulders of a lot of women,
(22:34):
so thank you for that. My relationship to the land
really kind of jumped off when I was living in
New York, kind of seeking connection. I was really homesick,
and I would come home a lot, and every time
I would come home, I would get in the garden
(22:55):
with my grandfather and with his brother, my great uncle, Andrew,
and um. I started to learn these things about my family,
about my family's history, about you know, just access just
our beautiful relationship with our land and the land around
here within like a ten mile radius of where I
(23:17):
lived for a long time, and I just started feeling
way more grounded, way more connected to who I am,
but also to like who my family is and the
importance of our own stories A little I guess history is.
(23:38):
I was working in fashion for a while and I
ended up just feeling some of the traumas of working
like corporate, working in New York, working in you know,
just fast paced corporate America. And when I transitioned out
of fashion, I started working in food and I was
working on the line I'm in um this gastro pub
(24:02):
and the leat packing, and I was also doing a
lot of food storytelling for different brands and chefs, and
one of those chefs was J. J. Johnson, and his
work kind of aligned with my family's work in a
way that I didn't expect. And the more I started
to uncover with the work I was doing with him,
(24:23):
the more, you know, I bring stuff home. And I
remember my grandfather's brother, older brother Herbert, when I showed
him as rice that was from Trinidad, that was an
African strain of rice. I remember him being like, oh,
I remember when Grandpa John used to grow rice in
the yard and we used to harvest it. And he
talked about winnowing, and he talked about you know, his
(24:47):
his memories were vague because he was a little boy,
but he remembered these key things and that's how the
rice got on the table. And that really like made me.
It just woke something up in me around like place,
and I started to think about, oh wow, well what
were we before we were here too. To have that
knowledge in that technology, you have to you know, be
(25:10):
in certain areas. So just discovery after discovery kind of
brought me back here because I was really focused on
telling other folk stories and digging up this history through food,
through food, research through food kind of art and you
know development. Thank you for sharing that. That is a
(25:33):
very dense journey that I would like to further unpacked.
So J J. Johnson, if people don't know, is a
young ish millennial chef in New York. He just opened
a new rice centric restaurant called Field Trip. And j
(25:58):
J also worked with at Cecil's, which is a pretty
legendary spot in Harlem. So he is a very prominent
young chef. When you are talking about, you know, the
rice being part of the epiphany for you, I'm assuming
that you're talking about when you were working with j J.
(26:20):
And he was kind of also cultivating this vision around
a rice based restaurant. Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, So
that's so crazy to think about how that unfolded. But
he was researching a strain of rice called Areza glab
Arima and Glenn Roberts from Ansonville helping him with that
(26:45):
and providing him grains. And Glenn while I was working
with JJ really but can kind of a mentor for
me in the space because we can nerd out about
like agriculture and grain facts and suns at goals, and
he just put me onto so much stuff that really
likes sent me down this mildly crazy rabbit hole of research.
(27:09):
And can you say, um, what Anton Mills is for
people who don't know, Oh, it's a it's a grain
mill based in South Carolina. Um. They do various heirloom
and land race grains and corn and it's a farm.
It's a mill. And Glenn is the one who founded
(27:30):
that and is an awesome farmer and just really on
the ground doing the work. So basically we were working
on some concepts so well, it was the grain concept,
which initially wasn't field trip, it was a different name altogether.
But we were, you know, brainstorming and mapping things out
(27:51):
and kind of came to the rice is culture point
of view when we were doing this work, because every
culture has has grains on the table, and it just
seemed like this unifying crop. So finding like those stories
that were interstwined in that, and and reading about like
even Japanese grains of rice and black rice, and you know,
(28:15):
folklore around these various crops, because all these crops have
their own stories and their own folklore. And I think
that's what really tied me in because I grew up
hearing folklore, and I grew up hearing stories from my elders.
My grandfather still will pop up and like when he's ready,
he will share, he will share a story quick. Um.
(28:38):
It was really beautiful to like learn about our rice
and our our grain history and some of the other
grains that you know, I read in books. I remember
the first mention I think I ever read was in
Jessica the Harris's book The Africa Cookbooks. She talks about
grains out of Africa, and that really was like, oh, okay,
(29:02):
I think as an American, as an African American who
grew up in the South, I didn't really know much
about us having our own crops and the fact that
a lot of those things came from Africa that wet now,
you know, growing up, you just don't think about that stuff.
But through like a lot of the literature that I
started reading and the works of like Cranelia Bailey and
(29:24):
Vernemet Grosner can really like learn a lot about our
just our history with agriculture and seedkeeping and how important
those crops were to us and to our stories into
the passing down of the house and the whose You know,
I'm really interested in what you're saying about story and folklore.
(29:45):
Obviously it is central to the African diasporic tradition. And
your grandfather he's a gardener, right, I think that's who
I've seen on the grand before in the garden. Well,
so my grandfather is I mean, you could call him
a gardener, but really he he and his brothers, all
(30:06):
of his siblings, they grew up farming. Yeah, I think
in reference to my grandfather's generation, we're talking about hundreds
of acres of land. Uh is gardening? Right? That is
definitely not gardening. And so I think that's the kind
(30:26):
of the distinct difference, just like and also what they
were growing and why they were growing. You know, it
wasn't the reason that I'm growing necessarily now, it was
out of necessity. And their parents they were like, Okay,
we're doing this, so you're gonna get this work to
come on, You're gonna pick three hundred towns of cotton today,
(30:47):
Like this is the work that they were doing growing up.
And so their relationship to farming growing up is very
different from what I see in them now as they
work an acre a lot of land and treed everybody
around us and my my grandfather's brother Andrew, has kind
of been my my since in the field because he
(31:10):
holds a lot of the old history in my family,
which is crazy because he's the baby brother. And it's
when we're in the garden that we're able to talk
about those things, or one one's kitchen that he's sharing
those things, or when we're showing dried seeds. You know,
that's when those stories really come to life. Reach inside
(31:34):
and get out to how meditates you need at last,
fear for week or two three, you get out altering
you need where you're keeping how Yeah. So my grandfather
is an engineer and an inventor, and he it's just
an incredible inventor and kind of magician of sorts because
(31:57):
he can turn anything into something that's how to keep
I mean that in the sense of he rebuilds the tractors,
so like that's kind of his relationship to the garden
with Uncle Andrew and I. He is our mechanic engineer,
and we do the planting and the harvest thing for
(32:19):
the most part, and so whenever thing's work down, it's
in his shop, which is located right behind our house.
In terms of proximity, it's kind of like we have
everything we kind of need within like the street that
is very powerful. And I have to say, do you
(32:43):
have any stories off the top of your head that
have been passed down to you around food and folklore?
M yes, I think my stories that have been passed
directly to me from my relatives on more memories. So
the games that they would play as children when they
(33:03):
were out in the field. What is it when it's
peanuts season? There's Jack in the bush? Is a game
that they used to play, which that sounds like an
old person's game. Jack in the bush? You know that
was before So what is jack in the bush? It's
(33:24):
a game And the way it was explained to me,
they would have peanuts, you know, one would be the
guesser and one would be the I guess the holder
of the peanuts, and so they would hide them in
their hands and the guesser would have to, you know,
approximate how many peanuts are in your hand, and if
(33:48):
it was wrong, if it was over, you had to
give them the peanuts, and if it was under, they
had to make up the difference. It was, Oh God,
thankfully I've recorded these things. If you know how many
you have in your hand, you have. I said, if
you had five peanuts in your hands and you said,
Jack is in the bush, you know, other person said
(34:10):
cut him down? You say how many licks? You're guessing
how many peanuts in your hand. If you said you
had five in your hand and the man said ten,
well give me five and make me teen. But if
he guess exactly what was in your hand, you had
(34:35):
to give him to him. Like hearing the way that
they formulated James and created you know, their all reality,
even in like kind of hard times, and like the
way they just created these worlds. It's really interesting. Hard
(34:58):
to house all of these all of these things that
they created. But I think that's what made me pursue filmmaking,
like as a medium to record these things and keep
these things and pass these things. You chronicle your life
in your family's life with such joy, and there's such
(35:21):
intimacy there. Do you feel like compelled or that it's
part of your work to to share that that intimacy
and that relationship that you have with your family. I
don't know that I always have felt compelled to like
share that necessarily. However, I think in the process of
sharing that I've realized how much it's opened up for
(35:45):
other people, the possibilities of what your relationship to your
elders can be and kind of this inheritance that they
hold that is storytelling, that is recipes, that is you know,
whatever form it takes, it just opening up communication. But
that these things can be passed down. That feels very important,
(36:07):
especially you know, as a form of preservation. You're right,
the preservation is so important because when you think about
how quickly that generational knowledge has been lost, it is
it's because we we don't talk explicitly with our elders
oftentimes about their remembrances and relationships to the land, and
(36:32):
unfortunately often times we you know, that land is not
in our families in the same way, you know, which
is part of that generational loss is of memory and
also a place. The fact that you do have access
both to the memories and the place is powerful, and
we are grateful that you share it with all of us.
(36:53):
So what are you working on right now that has
you most in a drive? Mm hmm, yeah. So, Revival
Taste Collective is the name of an online journal that
I started a few a couple of years ago when
I was living in New York and I was making
(37:14):
these visits to the South and I went to Staffalo
Island for the first time when I started this journal,
and I got a chance to meet Clinelia Bailey's family
and be on their land and learn about their ancestral
connections to the land and place and the things that
they grow. So all of that was kind of a
(37:35):
part of my discovery of myself and my own story,
or at the start of it. So I started putting
that in various like random journals online, and um, that
was the start of it, and I kind of put
that on the back burner when I was in New
York and when I made the decision to move home
with intention to preserve our land, to tell these stories,
(37:59):
to preserve these stories, Revival Taste Collective felt like the
way that I was going to do that the place
that I was going to have these stories and bring
people together in order to taste the food, in order
to see the seeds and feel the feeds and maybe
take seeds home, but also commune over storytelling. And so
(38:20):
I'm really excited because we've been doing a few things
here on like what I call the Wardard Homestead, which
is our land here where our house, where the shop is,
and where the garden is. I'm gonna start a series
of events through these journal entries basically online. So the
things that I've been writing about that I've been sharing,
(38:42):
We're actually gonna like bring them to life through dinners
and through community cinema and screenings of independent films and
documentary films and things that are important to the culture,
so that the kids in the community have access to
this knowledge and they have access to the art. And
we did one screen already of my film Tall Grass,
which is, you know, the stories from my community, some
(39:05):
of the inheritance in the form of growing and keeping,
and also what's happening around here in terms of the
highway and how that's cutting into our land as well
as displacing our elders. So there's a lot hidden in
the grass and and this is kind of shining a
light on those things, on some of those stories. Well,
(39:28):
so crucial that you are creating this space and that
you have this relationship to the elders, and I mean, yeah,
thank God that they're they're sharing, and that you're documenting.
It is a gift that extends far beyond your family.
So will you be making like an announcement. Are you
gonna do it in series or do you think it
will be like a one off thing where we'll just
(39:49):
get like an update, So via Instagram that's the newspaper.
That's how you do it exactly. Okay, give us your
g handle so we can know where to find. Okay,
it's my name, Gabrielle g A b r I E
l l E Underscore at g M E I t
(40:10):
I E m n E Gabrielle et t N. Cultural
preservationist in Apex, North Carolina, doing amazing, amazing work. Thank
you for joining us today on point of origin. Thank
you so much, Stephen. This is wonderful. H m m
(40:32):
m m m m m m m m m m
m m m m m m m m m And
that's it for this episode. Point of Origin is a
podcast from My Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine executive
produced by Christopher Hasiotis and hosted by me Stephen Saderfield.
(40:56):
Special thanks to Cat Hoong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins,
and a very special thanks to my business partner, Wetstone
co founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks
mel and thanks to all of you for supporting wet
Stone and listening to the Point of Origin podcast for
all of the latest on all things point of Origin.
(41:19):
You can follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine
or online at wet Stone Magazine dot com. We'll see
you next week at the Point of Origin. M
Host
Stephen Satterfield
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