August 8, 2018 • 57 mins
GRAMMY-nominated singer/songwriter Aloe Blacc made his major label debut with his album 'Lift Your Spirit' in 2014, while his track "Wake Me Up," a collaboration with EDM artist Avicii, reached the top 5 on the Billboard chart and other top charts around the world. Most recently, he served as the guide in the short film "America's Musical Journey." During this conversation, Blacc shares stories about his creative process in the studio and his passion for using his artistic platform to inspire social change while continuing to create music with a mindful positivity.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, Executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the Clive
Davis Theater, I have the chance to speak with artists
from across the musical spectrum about their careers, their inspirations,
and their creative process. Now, I am a very lucky guy,
as are the two hundred people that get to join
me at the Grammy Museum. Now with Required Listening, I'm
(00:22):
excited to share these interviews with you. On today's episode,
my conversation with singer songwriter al O Black. We got
together just after he released a new track called Brooklyn
in the summer. He released his major label debut, Lift
Your Spirit, in two thousand fourteen, and his track Waked
Me Up, a collaboration with the E D M artist
of VICI, reached the top five of the Billboard chart
(00:44):
and top charts around the world. Lift Your Spirit received
a Grammy nomination for Best R and B Album at
the fifty seven Annual Grammy Awards. Most recently, Black served
as the guide for the film America's Musical Journey, traveling
throughout the country as he traced the roots of American music.
Most important, he is passionate about using his artistic platform
(01:06):
to affect social change while continuing to create music with
a mindful positivity. So let's go to the Clive Davis
Theater and listen to my conversation with Alo Black. All Right, well, um,
Alo Black, welcome to required Listening. Thanks thanks for having me.
You know we're we're thrilled to have you. Um. I
want to chat a little bit about, you know, some
(01:28):
of the new music that you've been making. Um, there's
a there's a track out Brooklyn in the summer, um, um,
which you know, according to the things I've read, UM,
isn't somewhat of a new direction for you? I think, yeah,
I think every time I put music out in a
new direction. But um, this song is definitely a topic
(01:51):
and a style that I haven't really employed in any
frequency in the past. And I guess you know, if
you usten to the old stuff, there's nothing that sounds
like it. But I think that's a pretty characteristic of
every time I put out new music. Well, you know,
I have had particularly one artist in particular, I recall
(02:11):
a couple of years ago said the following to me.
He said, every record I make is a reaction to
the last record I made really yeah. Yeah. So so
I'm wondering for you, is is this track and maybe
thinking about the album to come somewhat of a reaction
to Lift Your Spirit. No, I think the time has
been has been so far since Lift Your Spirit that
(02:35):
this is more of, I guess, a concerted effort to
make music that hits different themes. I think generally the
songs that I enjoy writing and that I write more
most frequently are songs with themes of aspiration or inspiration motivation,
and Brooklyn the Summer is a love song. So I
thought it would be interesting to try on this new
(02:58):
hat um as an as an artist. For me, it's
a new hat for the music industry. It's the radio
and song as that you hear is like the personal relationship. Yeah,
personal relationship. It's just not something that I used to
do because as a hip hop artist, as an m
C back on the day, you would only do a
love track few and far between. You know, Llo cool
(03:19):
J did I Need Love? He killed it? That was
the best one. Nobody needs to do another one. Um,
it is the is the direction in terms of talking
about personal relationships, somewhat of a window into the new album.
It's sort of what we went on to new album.
I wanted to spend more time talking about relationships and
(03:42):
and songs that had um a story about about love
that wasn't just general um you know, love for humanity,
which is is what I do quite often. UM. I
wanted to be more specific about romantic relationships. And this
is um, you know, just for me. I look at
(04:02):
I look at my contemporaries and think about the songs
that I've made is that have been become hits, and
they've all been other than romantic topics. I figured I
could probably, I could probably you know, sell a few
songs with the romantic topic. But aside from the business,
it was just, uh, you know, I I'm married. I'm married,
and I have kids, and I have love in my life,
(04:24):
and I wanted to express this side of my artist dream.
Does it um? Does it require a different kind of songwriting.
It does a different kind of headspace. It does require
different headspace and different songwriting, especially when you're not used
to it. Like I mean, I can be open about
a lot of things in my music. The one thing
I never was open about and I have to learn
to be open about is you know, my my relationships,
(04:47):
my personal relationships. So I think I cheated a little bit,
especially with Brooklyn in the Summer. I borrowed someone else's relationship. Um.
I've collaborated collaborate a lot on this new album, and
this song was co written with Jay Stoler, who's a
a brilliant songwriter and singer. But this is Brooklyn in
(05:08):
the Summer, is his love story. I just helped to write, um,
you know, edited and write the bridge and kind of
make it come to life. Sonically, it's, um, it's got
it's it's got a terrific energy yeah to it. Um,
And I'm wondering if that too, You're just just thinking
about the sound of the song is a different direction, Yeah,
(05:32):
I mean sonically it's a it's much more of a
pop sound and polished sound than I'm used to, you
know when in the past, um my first solo album,
shine Through, I was just kind of making uh mixture
of all different genres and sounds and styles, but I
wanted it to be gritty and so it had its
(05:52):
gritten it. And then the Good Things album was throwback soul,
so it you know by its own Nay, sure, it
had to have some grit and then lift your spirit.
Was this kind of mixture of the sonic fidelity of
hip hop, the musicality of soul music, and folks soul
vocal um on top. But I didn't really push for
(06:15):
pop in this. In this particular track, Brooklyn in the Summer,
it feels soulful. It's written soulful. The melodies and the
lyrics are really um unique, but there's a nice polish
on top, the you know, kind of makes it a
pop track. Yeah, yeah, you can. You can definitely hear that.
(06:36):
And I'm wondering, for you know, for you, is this
taking your music in a more modern direction, because I
think sometimes I think sometimes you've been saddled a little
bit with that throwback sort of Yeah. I mean, you
know podcast, Yeah, throwback is where I've made my name.
(06:57):
So um, you know, I find that in the music business,
you in the business really, you know, not necessarily the
art of it. There are characters that exist, and you
you play your role. And when you play a role
well enough, you become consistent enough for people to recognize
and remember who you are and to expect and um anticipate,
(07:19):
and you want to give them something new, but you
also want to give them something familiar. Um, with Brooklyn
in the summer, I can see where people will hear
it and have no clue that it's me singing, And
I think that's interesting. It's a it's an interesting experiment
to try, especially you know, in in this era of
the game. The last record I put out streaming wasn't
the standard. It was just the It was kind of
(07:42):
an introductory or early period. But now it's the standard,
and we'll see how it works, you know. Um, if
the song on its own merit will will rise without
an attachment to my history or my name. We'll see.
I think it will, and that you know, these days,
perhaps more more than ever, that's the challenge for artists,
(08:06):
is kind of finding finding their place, becoming recognizable for
a sound, but having the freedom to be an artist. Yeah.
For me, if I if I had, if I have
not uh signed a contract with a company where I
(08:26):
was going to have a partnership and we have to
have mutual decisions on what we release, it would be
it would be crazy for people to understand what I'm
trying to do. They wouldn't have an idea of what
my direction is or what my sound is because I
make signs and songs and every style and every genre,
and there's for me, there are no rules. And because
there are no rules, I need a producer to to
(08:48):
kind of corral wrangle me in and like make it
sound consistent and and offer some um, you know, some semblance,
some symmetry across the across the project. Otherwise, really it's
going to be everywhere, um, which in one sense is
an advantage. You know, you you you want, you want
(09:11):
to be artistically curious. I think it's an advantage these
days because I think there's something there's something about the
roller coaster ride that is is um exciting and fun
for people who are listening to music and enjoying the
story of an artist's journey. Um. I think when long
the days of of a it's kind of the superhero
(09:34):
character of an artist aren't long gone. They're still around,
but I think they need to be challenged in a
major way. I love when I see an artist transform
Andre three thousand, going from rap guy to singing guy
to acting guy, you know what I'm saying. And to
see Childish Gambigo do the same kind of rap, acting, singing,
(09:54):
it's it's interesting and I think it is the way.
It really is the way to graduate in hip hop.
And I graduated early because I you know, I started
doing hip hop and and I started doing the singing
thing in two thousand five, so I was kind of
following the footsteps of Andre and Lauren Hill. Um. And
(10:16):
I just want to see more of that transformation happen
faster and not so typecast. Yeah. But but in you know,
in the in the era now of of streaming, there
there is the opportunity because it is so now immediate.
I mean, you could immediate. The metabolism is you could
literally you could record something here today and it could
(10:37):
be it could be up on Spotify tomorrow and you know,
around the world instantly. Um. And And what I find
fascinating about particularly with you know, with streaming, the opportunity
for discovery as a listener is greater than it's ever been.
Now there's nobody telling you what the radio isn't like
(10:58):
curating what you're what you're hearing. You have to be
a little more proactive as a listener, I think sort of.
I mean there's also you know, it ends up being
a top down system. There are just uh functional uh
technologies and methodologies that we can't get away from, like
a list. So we have play lists. We don't have
play trees, right, we don't have play um associative diagrams.
(11:25):
It's a list and somebody chooses what goes at the
top that's hot works. So although radio is not giving
you your your top down kind of choices, somebody is.
It's not all of the playlists somewhere. Um, it would be.
It would be awesome if it was truly random and
that everybody had the opportunity when they went on to
(11:47):
discover something brand new and not always have the same
ten songs at the top of the playlist. Yet are
further um you know, kind of popularizing those ten songs
do the deep Die. But that's how it is, Yes,
and you're right, it is more proactive. It is more proactive.
You can you can go online and you have to
kind of know what you want to find unless you're
(12:08):
going to sit back and let somebody give you the
ribbe they've already chosen. Yeah. Yeah. Um. The the other
thing that you've talked about particularly think think about the
album that that that's coming, is that it should be
more reflective of your live before that's right, you know. I, um,
my live performance is is high energy and I love
(12:29):
to do call and response and sing with the crowd
and get them to dance. It's just part of my
my background learning how to rock a stage as a
hip hop artist. So when I started singing, I was like, well,
I don't want to do boring slow songs. I don't
you know, that's not that's not fun for a show.
And I'm still learning to become comfortable with that. And
I do it well when it's like me and a
and an acoustic performance with my guitarist on my pianist
(12:52):
and you know, to sit down audience and I get
I get to just talk to people and keep it real,
comfortable and relaxed. But when it's a standing you know,
standing audience and there are big speakers and I have
a full band, I'm ready to rock. Yeah. Um and
and and there is something you know, there is something
remarkable that that that happens, you know, particularly in those
(13:15):
you know, in those bigger live performance settings in terms
of the energy, um, that is hard to recreate. I
think in the studio, I mean in the studio is
one thing I definitely have learned to be less picky
about what happens with the recording because I know that
(13:36):
the song is going to grow on stage, and then
I have the rest of my life to rerecord it
or let other people in the world re record it
and and build it and let it grow. Um. The
getting what you do live captured in the studio, yeah,
very difficult. And sometimes it just doesn't make sense, it
(13:57):
doesn't translate. Well, I've tried that. So I tried the
the old method of write a song, tour the song,
then record the song. And when we recorded the songs,
they just didn't feel right on record. M Yeah. And
I'm sure it works for other people who just didn't
work for me. Yeah yeah, um um, well, you know,
and you know, unfortunately, a lot of times the studio
(14:19):
can be kind of a cold, you know, sort of
still environment. You don't feel, it doesn't have the same energy.
I think there are artists who can who have the
the ability to put themselves into that mind state so
that they can get the stage performance in the studio,
(14:42):
and then there are artists who cannot alter their mind
state at all. They're always on, just always on, so
it's gonna be that performance. I'm you know, I'm different.
I'm a very relaxed kind of guy. When I'm on stage.
There's definitely the live energy character. Um, I can, I can.
(15:02):
I can turn it on in the studio, it's just
not going to be the sing Yeah. I was interested
to learn that you have, um, a real sensitivity to
the singers song classic singer songwriters. Yeah. Um, you know,
whether it's Joni Mitchell or Cat Stevens or James Taylor, whoever,
(15:24):
whoever it might be, what is it about that music?
It's a it's you know, let's take the music aside.
It's just the words, right, putting the words on paper
and somebody read it and it'll make them cry. That's important.
I get really frustrated with music on in the in
the marketplace that is not fully um, you know, put
(15:46):
thought out and put together. Like some people if they're
making a song, they allow the production to like stilt
whatever they're lacking on the lyrical side, and they allow
you know, maybe the the mix too fulfill what they're
(16:06):
lacking on the melodic side or whatever. I think that's
just lazy, Like write some words down first, make sure
those words are bomb. Make sure that if you play,
if you if you let somebody read those words there's
no music and your no voice, that they're going to
feel like it's an important story that matters. Then come
up with a great melody and make sure that melody
works for a three year old and eight three year old.
(16:29):
Then find some other instruments to add to it, and
a great producer who can kind of direct what sound
it should be for the time. That's the marketing. The
production is the marketing. But if you don't have a song,
I don't want to hear all the extra marketing because
because you're just selling me vacuous uh sound. Every I think,
(16:52):
every um great producer will tell you it comes down
to the song. You can do all kinds of things
in the studio, you can make all kinds of magic.
I've done it before, and I you know, I pissed
myself off when I do it, because like I know better.
I know better than just string some some empty words
together on top of a beat that sounds great. It's
(17:14):
really important for me. And that's why I love a
Joni Mitchell or a James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Bernie toppin right.
Because Elton John in the early stuff didn't didn't pen
he just did the melodies and music. Um, those our
poems that means something forever, and you know, it's that's
(17:37):
what I That's what I like to live up to
and try to Are you? Are you? Are you writing
all the time? Are you? Are you disciplined about that?
I'm not disciplined in the way where I'm like writing
a song every day from beginning to end. But I
do have a discipline of of constantly fielding inspiration from
(17:59):
the atmosphere wherever, whatever is happening. Yesterday I had a
conversation with a friend. He said a string of words,
and a whole other string of words that were sort
of related came to mind, and I wrote them down
because I feel like this might be a great idea.
Is like when I wrote, um, wake me up when
it's all over, Wake me up. The first idea I
(18:19):
had was wake me up when it's all over. When
I'm older and I'm sober, And that's it was the
first thing I wrote was wake me up when it's
all over. That's a common cliche for race. Everybody knows
that what comes next is where you do the familiar
and the novel right. People want something familiar, They want
something new That's what a roller coaster, right is. I
(18:40):
know I'm going to strap up, I just don't know
when I'm gonna drop. So when I'm older and sober
didn't sit with me, well because it wasn't my story.
When I'm wiser and I'm older. Was the rewrite that
I ended up doing, and it worked, um, interesting and
enough that when I brought those lyrics in, it was
(19:01):
going to be working with Vici and either one of
those lyrics would have worked, which kind of uh, you know,
the coincidence. Um, But I'm sure we'll get to that conversation. Well, well,
I as long as as long as you're there, I
have to ask you about about Vici. Um. Yeah. So
unfortunately gets to hear of his passing. It's deeply saddening.
(19:24):
It is. It is really hard for me to take
because I know how much he loved music, and I
feel like, um, we've we've lost one of the you know,
greatest producers of our time. And I say that because
I've worked with a few, um a lot of different producers. Um,
he didn't have the same kind of musical knowledge that
(19:49):
some of the producers and musicians that I work with
have in terms of training, but he had I'm sorry,
he did have the knowledge. I don't know how he
had the knowledge, but maybe he was, you know, savant
or something like that. But when he worked on music,
he knew what he wanted and how to get it
with the tools that he was using. And I just
(20:10):
found that really fascinating. Um. It's just yeah, very tragic
that he's that he's gone. UM. I read that you
had something like forty songs kind of ready to go
or in some stage, in some stage, in some stage
for the album. So the question becomes, what do you
(20:31):
how do you choose what ends up on the record.
Do you have criteria? Is it? Is it thematic? Is
its sonic? Or is it just a gut thing? Well, okay,
so I can't take the business man out of me. Okay,
I've always I've always done from the beginning of my career,
like handled all my business and then even after university,
(20:53):
I went to go work in corporate America. So there's
like this this business guy who's like, Okay, what's going
to be the the best package to put into the marketplace? Um?
And and so I'm always thinking in that way, and
that's sometimes how I choose the songs, and that's definitely
works with the record label. Record label wants like four
(21:13):
songs that are going to be no brainer. These are
you know, they have artistic merit and then they also
will work in the marketplace. And then the rest of
the songs, I just kind of choose which ones I
like that can round out an album. And because I
want to have a theme of more of the romantic
(21:35):
and love topic on this on this album, I'm going
to choose the songs that lean in that way rather
than the songs that lean towards inspiration motivation, Yeah, aspiration.
Um you you you've mentioned a couple of times, you know,
being in partnership, you know, with a with with the
record label. Um um. And and you know I've talked
(21:55):
to many artists for whom that sort of cuts both ways. Um.
You seem to have a very good, very grounded perspective
of what it means to be in business with a
major record label. Yeah. I mean it's a business. Yeah,
you sign a contract, it's an agreement, it's your word.
So you just hope that both you know, both sides
(22:16):
will keep the word. And that's how you operate based
on that trust. Um and and you know, one of
one of the things that that seems to be happening
UM across whether it's hip hop or pop, is you know,
the idea of artists and particularly at the at the
shall we say inspiration of of a record label going
into the studio with multiple producers, multiple writers and and
(22:41):
and one man's opinion making music by committee. You know,
in effect that that you know that that seems to
be what's what's happening UM. Has that ever been suggested
to you? No, no, no, it's not suggested. It's just
the modus operandi. That's just the way. That's the way
I found it to be in this in this most
more recent iteration of my career. In the past, there
(23:04):
was no committee. And I think art can't be done
by committee. But you know, that's this is the record business.
If I wanted to just create art, I wouldn't be
in the record business. I would just create art, and
I do. I just don't mingle it with the business.
So when I do my my em and On project,
which is my hip hop project with DJ Exile, we
just make the stuff and we put it out, We
(23:26):
put it up on the streaming services, we put it
up on the download services, and then I put it
on my website for people to download for free, because
that is art. I'm not selling it. There's no business here.
I'm not trying to compete. I'm not trying to battle
rap against somebody else. Yes I got bars, Yes I
can beat people in a freestyle battle, but I'm not
here to compete. I'm here to show you the art.
And I have a message in my art now when
(23:46):
I'm singing, and I'll do stuff with my label that's
a different story. Yeah did you did you have to
carve that out of your label deal? Yeah? It was
carved out. Yeah yeah. Um um, you're you're originally from Panama.
My parents are from Paranamm. I grew up here in
southern California. How how much do your Panamanian roots play
(24:08):
into your your music? It's in there, It's in there.
It's almost every song I'd say. Um, I grew up
listening to a lot of Caribbean music, So there's there
are rhythms West African rhythms that make it into my
songs that people don't here necessarily. But and sometimes I
don't even know until like way later that it's there,
And and you know, from like bass lines that are
(24:31):
that are slowed versions of calypso based lines, or um
montoono rhythms from saw some music, or the clave in
in um you know in Latin sausa and Latin music.
All these things will make it in. And then there's
a certain particular kind of way that um I was
employing in in this process of of the album. UM
(24:54):
that mimicked the crooning style of a salceto, like the
way um you know salsa singers saying there's a very
particular style that's from you know, like the early early
seventies and early era of salsa, which is a derivative
son and I wanted to use it because it felt
(25:16):
so good, it felt so home, it felt so natural
to me. Um. I don't know if any of that's
going to make the album, but these songs are written
and they'll come at at some point, you know. In
in March, you released a track called make Way Um
and and and this is this is a narrative that
you were that you returned to, you know, this this
struggle to overcome right, tell me, tell me about the
(25:39):
story of the underdog and yeah, and and the power
to persevere boost trap story. It's for me that's blues
and and uh, it's a I don't know, it's just
something that is it comes naturally to write, and it
(26:00):
feels like maybe I'm If I'm going to try to
explain it, I would say I'm channeling my family's story,
channeling the story of my my parents coming from Panama
to make a better life in the US, channeling the
story of their grandparents moving from the Caribbean to Panama
to build the canal and and find work. Um, I'm channeling,
(26:24):
you know, the story of the story of hardship. Um.
And I think it's the that tension of the challenge
of success versus defeat that you know, I'm interested in well,
and and it's I mean, for you know, for anyone
(26:45):
trying to make their way, that's the central part of
of life, quite frankly, is you know it is finding
your way, making your mark. It is. I think definitely,
it's it's definitely a Western, a Western ideology. And I'm
you know, I'm perfectly suited for it growing up here.
(27:06):
Yea and yeah. Um. In the song are you are
you encouraging yourself as well as you're encouraging others? The
song is more about self encouragement. Yeah. Um, it's the
lyrics make way I'm coming through, you know, not for nothing.
It was written with the intention of being this kind
of this kind of motivational song, a song that will
(27:31):
be impactful for uh moments when people need a cheerleader,
a coach, and you know, maybe that's maybe that's what
I what I am in the in the end is like,
you know, like uh, motivational singer instead of a motivational speaker. Well, um,
(27:52):
and I would say, you know, given what you mentioned earlier,
and we'll talk about this in a minute. You know,
your your intention to be inspirational, your intention to you know,
to provide you know, a positive, oftentimes very supportive message
in your music. Um, speaks to that, It speaks to
(28:12):
where you are as a person. Yeah, I think for
I don't. It's hard for me to describe. I just
do it because it's it really does come naturally to me.
It's normal. It's the way I feel, it's the way
I think. Um, I have this you know, overwhelming sense
(28:32):
of of calm and confidence and I love to use
that in my music. It's hard to do that and
be and make it sound good. If you're just completely overconfident.
I usually wait for the course to get there, and
I use the verses to to show that there's doubt
(28:55):
and that there's something to overcome, and to show some
self deprecation and also to show some um humanity. In
the first lyric of the Man, I wrote, I believe
every lie that I ever told. And it sounded at
the time I was writing it, it just sounded like
a cool thing to say. But then as I you know,
(29:16):
as I dig deeper in it and really think about it,
it it feels like, um, you know, a sentiment that
everybody can can resonate with. From a philosophical side, if
we just pars it logically, it makes sense. Of course,
you believe every lie you ever told. It wasn't a lie,
It was the truth to you. But then there are
(29:38):
times where you really know better, but you force yourself
to believe or to act in a certain way because insecurity, safety,
all of the you know, issues that may that may
affect your your psyche do you often U do do?
(30:01):
Just in this case, um do songs even perhaps months
years after you've written them change, Do they reveal something
just as you were as you were just saying, um,
something different. Um. Wow, yes they do when other people
(30:24):
tell me. Sometimes lyrics that I write can be heard
in a different way and it creates an entirely new meaning,
but a very relevant meaning. It's like my my daughter's
name is Mandela. I wanted to name her Mandela, you know,
(30:45):
I wanted to name her the Sanskrit word that you
know describes a circle spiritual design. And my wife thought
I was saying Mandela, and I I thought, you know what,
even better we have both Yeah, and it makes it
makes so much sense. Um. And I find out in
(31:06):
lyrics too, when people miss here the lyric, it just
it makes it even more rich. Well, that and that
and that's also that's also the beauty of artistry is
you you put it out there, whatever it is you
have to say creatively. How the world interprets and accepts
it is sometimes not if you're you're making Yeah, that's true.
(31:29):
I mean there are there are lyrics that I wish
I could change because I felt like they were the
good for a now, Lyrics that I didn't get a
chance to like improve. Um. And you know, people won't
know what those are unless I say I'm but uh,
I always I always think to myself, what could be
the better lyric to write that could beat this one? Um?
(31:53):
And sometimes I throw them in on stage. Yeah yeah, yeah,
well that I guess. I guess, I guess. I guess
most and most any artist would have, you know, that
sort of artistic second guessing. You know you're there's not
a second guess. I know it's not the real I
know it's not the right thing. I'm just gonna do it.
It's right now. I'm gonna do it. We're gonna record it,
and if we get to it will fix it later.
(32:14):
But if we don't, it'll be good enough. Um. So
you were involved in in this remarkable film project, um,
the American Journey. Yeah. Um. And and there was a
song you released in conjunction with the film My Story. Um,
before we get to that, how did you get involved
with the film. The producers of the film mcgail, every
(32:37):
Freeman Films, we wanted to invite me into submit a
song and do an interview and in a longer conversation,
we just kind of helped craft the entire story, like
the arc of the of the film, because I didn't
think they really had to handle them on how they
wanted to approach music. They knew they wanted to do
something with music, so UM, along with my my business partner,
(32:59):
Gavin Massy, we spoke to them about doing a journey
across America from cities that were important in the birth
of a genre. And all of the major genres of
the world were born here in the US. UM. So
that was the discussion we had and I ended up,
you know, winning the opportunity to be the featured artist
(33:20):
taking that journey and and quite a joy. I mean,
you went yea from New Orleans to experience jazz, up
the Mississippi River to Memphis to talk about blues and rock,
further up the Missisipi River to Chicago than jazz again.
I spoke with Ramsey Lewis UM and then went to
New York to talk about hip hop and in Nashville
(33:41):
let's talk about country. Went to Miami to talk about
the Miami sound with Gloria Stefan. So you're doing my job. Yeah, Yeah,
I got a chance to interview some of my heroes.
That was awesome. Yeah, talk a little bit I read,
particularly Ramsey Lewis. Yeah, Ramsey Lewis was a great meeting.
Idea I had his records and I sampled from him,
and I had a chance to actually sit down and
(34:01):
meet him and talk about his his upbringing and how
he made music. But one of the things that really
touched me was the story that he told about Maurice White. Um.
You know, I'm a huge fan of Earth, Wind and Fire,
and I didn't really know the backstory. And I think
there's a biography, autobiography that I need to read. Um.
I think Maurice put one out I'll get But Um,
(34:25):
Ramsey Lewis told me about how Maurice was this very shy,
um and quiet drummer that would hide behind his symbols.
He would tilt his symbols so the audience couldn't see him. Um.
So he devised some way to like bring Maurice out
(34:45):
of his shell, and he gave him a colimba and
asked him to do a columbus solo in the middle
of a song. So Maurice would do the climbu solo
behind the symbols on his throne, behind the drums. And
then over time he got more confident he was stand
up and do the solo, and then he moved to
the front of the stage. To the microphone to do
the solo and Um, once he I think built up
(35:10):
enough confidence, he just quit the band. He told Ramsey,
I'm going to l A, I'm gonna start a band
with my brother, and they started Earth Winning Fire. And
I think that's a beautiful story because I love the
way that Ramsey tells it, because of course he makes
himself the causal agent, and I think that's fine. I
think he should as he should. He's he was a mentor,
he was a big brother. He was an inspiration to
(35:30):
to Maurice. And I wonder what would have happened if
that Kalimbo didn't exist. That's really the question. And I
love that. Uh, you know, one hero passed the torch
down to another hero. Um. Actually reading about this caused
me to go back and listen to some early Ramsey
Lewis albums and and you know, I think sometimes his
(35:55):
his artistry gets lost a little, you know, a little bit.
Um and there were there was one from it was
a live record and it was it was just it
was terrific. It's just just terrific. So thank you for
for tipping me back today. I was I was happy,
happy to do that. I got a chance to talk
(36:16):
to Gloria Stefan, and like one of those moments in
the studio, she was listening to the song that I
was writing inspired by the trip, called My Story, and
it was um uh. It was cool to meet, to
meet her and to talk to her. But as she
listened to the song, she heard a lyric in the
second verse that she really liked and it meant something
(36:40):
to her. It was, gray hairs are the ribbons. No,
gray hairs are the trophies for a game of life
well played, and the wrinkles are ribbons for the progress
that I've made. And she, you know, I think it
made sense to her because of her age, right sure,
and she was like, oh, that's a that's awesome. I
ended up taking that lyric from the second verse and
(37:02):
I just put at the top of the song. I
opened the song with it in the recording the final
recording UM almost as a as a thank you an
odd to her, but you know, um also as a
nod to all of my heroes, because if if it
resonated with her and all of my heroes are you
know of age, then I think my story is is
(37:24):
in part inspired by my heroes. UM and and that's
a I mean, that line is just a terrific entree
point into that song. Yeah, it's fantastic. Um. I also
understand that that um Lewis Armstrong and and some of
the things you learned about him. Um, we we're inspiring.
(37:48):
Tell tell me a little bit about YEA. So, Louis
Armstrong UM started his music, his musical journey at a
super young age. And I think it's seventeen. He was
on his own, going up the Missisippi River playing for money. Um,
and his journey is probably one of the most important
in uh, i'd say, black music, in music in general,
(38:14):
and in the civil rights movement. There were several factors
from entertainers and athletes that helped to normalize blackness. But
he became Louis Armstrong UM, and he was able to
transcend color, and he became an ambassador of the US
through music. He became an ambassador of music through his personalities, character,
(38:36):
his artistry. UM. And I started my first instrument was
the trumpet, inspired by you know TV Black and White
TV that I would see that dizzy lesbian and Louis Armstrong.
So um, UM, going going back in your personal story, UM,
(38:58):
you were talking about Ll cool J, you know earlier, Um,
and you were you were influenced by him. Yeah, all
my I started writing rap lyrics at age nine, and
all of them sounded like they were cool J lyrics
there definitely, you know, I didn't I didn't paraphrase or
or or um or plagiarized, but it was all in
the style of for sure, Yeah, what what was it?
(39:19):
What was it about his his writing? It was in
your young years. It was all the macho bravado um,
you know, very very very confident um lyricism that he did. Um.
And also just the fact that I had that was
the one record I actually had. My dad UM had
purchased Michael Jackson Bad and Ello cool J Bigger and
(39:44):
Deafer Bad. He didn't know which one to get because
he was instructed to go by bad Um. I was.
I was doing a play UM in the community and
the director wanted me to dance to Michael Jackson's Bad,
so he asked my dad to go by the record
so I could practice. I ended up practicing Llo cool
(40:05):
J lyrics for the whole summer and learned that album
from front to back. Yeah, we were talking earlier about
you know, the importance of being um, you know, having
positive messages in your music, And I'm wondering in terms
of the writing having you know, always having that that sense,
(40:29):
does that give you kind of guide posts, you know,
parameters if you will, in terms of being you know,
creating a positive message about you know, whatever you might
be be writing about. But it kind of gives you
lane to work in. Yeah, yes and no, I mean
I'll write and create whatever I want. Like, there's heinous
concepts that I would never release to the public that
(40:52):
I never want my kids to hear me saying things
that you know, I think. Of course, contemporaries are much
more doble doing. It's just not me. You know, it's
not my it's not my character, and it's not something
that I feel like it's uplifting humanity. So my goal
is to use my music and my artistry, my personality,
my character, my interviews to uplift humanity. It's the job
(41:14):
that I have been, um been rewarded with for with
my talent. So I take it seriously. Did did did that? Um?
Did that desire help kind of fuel the transition for
you from hip hop two, from rapping to being a
(41:35):
single sort of I think it was circumstances that fueled it.
I think gangster rap really kind of just uh made
it impossible for me to exist in in the hip
hop world um as I was as I was developing,
because it became so such a dominant um subgenre within
(41:56):
the genre that it overtook the back hack kind of
conscious you know, philosophical wrap that I was into. Plus
I was just getting into more heavier stuff and and
more interested in, like in different emotions than kind of
the monotony of hip hop. So you know, it's it's
(42:20):
it's interesting to see how how the world is it's
experiencing hip hop now and kind of who the luminaries are.
But then there's a there's a whole um landscape of
of people in the game that aren't luminaries, but they're
in the game, And I'm like, why are he's taking us?
(42:42):
Why are you taking us space? Get out the way
that somebody who actually has something to say say it
and and and have a presence. But you know, I
think it's it's a function of the the industry, the business,
the distribution method, you know, streaming is skewed towards youth
(43:02):
because they have ample discretionary time to stream. So then
because that's what pays the bills for the record labels,
they're going to they're going to, you know, you know,
create that as much as possible. And there's from you
just just thinking about the current climate that we're all
(43:22):
facing these days. It seems as though we were more
divided then we've ever been, along cultural lines, along political lines,
along economic lines, and and and for you, and this
is this is really a personal question, how do you
keep your chin up? Well, I don't know if I
believe that we're that divided. I know it seems that way,
(43:47):
But when I go around the world, I see audiences
that are completely mixed and shoulder to shoulder fellowshipping and
the beauty and so celebration of music. Um. And I
feel like what we receive in the information that we seek,
(44:09):
or in the algorithms that seek us UH, can tell
us a story that is not true. And I think
the true story is that we have so much more
in common and that we we want togetherness more than
we are are willing to accept. Because capitalism doesn't work
(44:32):
unless there's tension, and that tension is going to be
the driving um. You know, motivation UM to get us
to purchase and heal. We make these purchases to cover
up and purchases too to subdue UM. But if we
(44:56):
find a way to just you know, remove all of
all of those those messages, remove the desires that are
created by marketing and media and the attitudes and the
feelings that are created by marketing and media, will realize
that we are much more um similar than different. And
(45:23):
you know, the the big hot button topics that that
keep getting played are quite trivial compared to the things
that really matter. Food, clothing, shelter, you know, love, UM.
You've you've been kind of outspoken on on any number
(45:45):
of of important issues. You know, in topics um, immigration, incarceration, education,
the issue of malaria. Um. Um. Where does that sense
of responsibility for you come from? Uh? When I decided
(46:06):
to sign a contract with a major label, I realized
that I had access to a megaphone that was much
bigger than what I had prior, and that I have
a duty to use it in the right way, and
that there are um roads and pathways that were already
laid for me by my predecessors. You know, UM, there's
(46:27):
you know, ah, Harry Belafonte, c Any Potier, Robinson, um
My Angelou. Even if we want to get even more current,
Michael Jackson and I say a lot and it when
people asked, But Michael Jackson, I'd say eight percent of
(46:47):
his songs were social message songs. He was just dressed
up with the great marketing tool of pop music. You know,
Black or White was the only hit song about racial tolerance?
Why is it the only hit song about racial tolerance?
Should be more? You've talked about his particularly his skill
(47:07):
at at including these kinds of messages in you know,
arguably some of the best pop music ever made, and
that that was It's the music that's the vector. Yeah,
the medicine for the spoonful of sugar with the medicine,
and and so I use I use that as a
as a template like if I can if I can
(47:28):
figure out how to get the message into the lyric
and then wrap it up in in the production to
get to get it to the ears, then then I've
I've won the battle. You've referred to yourself and I
love this term as an artivist. Um explain a little bit. Yeah,
(47:50):
it's a it's a uh combination of the word activists,
and artists, and it is the use of my art
for positive social transformation. And I have friends who are
visual artists like Ednesto Yannam who works closely with Shepherd Ferry,
who are also artivists. And I have friends that are
(48:14):
dancers that um, that are artivists who create the movements
and choreography to tell stories um about humanity, um and equality.
And then you know, ah, the music musicians. There are
(48:35):
so many great musicians. One of my favorite of all
times Eugene McDaniels, who, um, you know, wrote I think
the best political album of all time in called The
Headless Heroes of the Apocalypse. But unfortunately it was so
good that Nixon's administration shut it down, pulled it from
(48:55):
the shelves. So I've covered it and I'm you know,
my goal is to is to spread that message again. Yeah. Um.
You mentioned a couple of people here just just now,
Harry Belafonte among them. Who would you consider your mentors,
people who have offered good advice, encouragement, mentorship. I wouldn't
(49:15):
say that there's any one person that I've sat with
and had mentorship on a regular basis, but I glean
from folks like Harry Belafonte and Um, the words of
Nelson Mandela Mahama Gandhi, the words of Martin Luther King.
(49:36):
These are you know, the the elders who have made
their statements. UM. That lasts a lifetime. And if they're
not Ah, if their words are not echoed, if their
philosophies and ideologies are not followed, then they will they
(49:56):
will die with them. UM. Because I have this megaphone,
I have to use it to further those ideologies and
those words, because those are the ones that hold true UM,
And to be a point of difference in the marketplace,
(50:18):
to be the counterpoint UM when things are skewed a
little bit dark and depressed and violent or misogynistic. I
heard a lyric on the radio once that was Live Fast,
Die Young, and I thought to myself, the person saying
this doesn't really mean it. But when they say it,
(50:42):
they offer everyone else an opportunity to say it a
hundred times, because those words become a mantra that you sing. Now,
everything that comes into your body and your mind is
you're consuming, becomes part of you in some way. Hopefully
you're strong enough to reject the the pragmatic side of
(51:06):
the message, and it's just theory. I don't have faith
that everybody is strong enough for that, especially teenagers who
are trying to develop their sense of self. So I
decided I wanted to write a song that was the
counterpoint to that, and if I can get the right
marketing around it, the right production and everything, then it
would serve as counterpoint and hopefully become a bigger message
(51:28):
of not wanting to live fast and die young. M Um.
Your your father spent thirty years in the Marines, um
and and I was it was it was it was
reading that that. Um. He always felt as though, even
even whether whether he was, you know, on duty or
(51:51):
an active service, when he went out wherever, whether it
was here or overseas, he represented the United States. Yeah,
um um And And I'm I'm wondering, first of all,
did did he pass that sense onto you? He did.
He definitely passed the sense on to me that I
am an ambassador of this country when I'm outside of
(52:15):
the country. Um. And you know, I understand the sentiment.
I agree with it. I take it a step further
and say, I'm just I'm a global citizen. I'm an
ambassador of humanity. My job is to is to show
what what we can be in when we're being you know,
(52:40):
good to other people, and and and it has to
it has to be thorough unless I'm super specifically, super
specific and super candid that it is strictly for art's sake.
And then it has to be through and through. It
can't just be like one day, one character or another
(53:00):
day another character, um, you know, because I think that
that could be harmful too to the world. Um. One
of the things that that you've also been been outspoken
about and and something that that the Recording Academy has
also been very much uh, you know, kind of at
the front of the line is the compensation for songwriters
(53:22):
and making sure that songwriters are appropriately compensated as compensated
and credited. Yes, yes, tell me, tell me tell me
a little bit. You know, how did how did you
first kind of come to this issue? And and tell
us why. I started reading copyright law pretty early in
(53:42):
my in my music career because I wanted to copyright
my my songs. So I think my first copyright was
two thousand one. Um. I sent in the paperwork and
I started understanding what everything meant and then looking at
some of the things that were obligatory and and kind
of um statutory things that we don't have a decision about.
(54:07):
And I look at other industries and I see so
much leeway and and so many rights that are available.
But as songwriters are one of the most heavy, heavily
restricted business people in the world, small businesses, as songwriters,
because of the laws that restrict us from you know,
kind of deciding the value of our creation. I'd love
(54:29):
to see those kind of things change. And so I
threw my hat in the ring to join the fight
against this kind of this antiquated system that needs to
be updated, especially as technology is changing in businesses are
are are you know, making money hand over fist where
(54:49):
it's not trickling down to the actual creator of the content.
I think it's important for songwriters, the people who put
the emotions in to a form that will translate to
other people. Um. Yeah, it's time for them to be
treated fairly and respected for the what they've done. And
(55:10):
we and we recently got got to build through the House. Yes,
the Music Modernization Act ums what to do in the
Senate but unanimously passed. Yeah, it would be hard, it
would be hard to think that it would not pass
in the Senate if it passed unitious really in the House.
How could human beings be so different? Mm hmm, I don't.
(55:31):
I don't think human beings will be so different. Well,
I'm I'm I'm I'm hopeful. Corporations on the other hand,
different story, Yeah, different story. Um. So last question, UM,
I've read of your your personal aspiration, um to be
a member of the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Oh yeah,
that's uh. I've have made the goal to be on
(55:56):
my best behavior when it comes to songwriting, because you
can't get to Songwriters Hall of Fame by just writing hits.
There are plenty of people with a lot of hits
that will never get there because their hits didn't have
the real merit of songwriting. Um. And so if I
don't make it there, at least I know that everything
(56:18):
that I did was with the intention of getting there,
So there was no there's no fluff. Well, um, we
couldn't be more pleased that that you took the time
to to join us on required listening. That the new
track is called Brooklyn in the Summer. Um, does the
album have a name yet? Or no, the album doesn't
have a name, and I've never done a self titled album,
(56:39):
so who knows. All right, maybe the time. Al Right, well,
we'll look for that later this year. Allo Black, thank
you so much. Nothing describes Alo Black better than the
term artivist. This is truly a thoughtful artist and songwriter,
and I'm excited to hear his new album when it
comes out later this year. For now, check out tracks
like My Story or Brooklyn in the Summer to get
(56:59):
a sense of his current musical state of mind. For fun,
I'd say go back and listen to Ramsey Lewis's nineteen
sixty nine album Another Voyage. It might just give you
a sense as to why Alo finds Ramsey Lewis so compelling.
And that's your required listening for today. We've got fresh
episodes coming to you every Thursday. We'd love to hear
(57:20):
from you, and we're on all the socials at Grammy Museum.
If you're coming to Los Angeles, I hope you'll come
and see us. All the info is at our website
Grammy Museum dot org. As always, props to the team
that brings this podcast to you every week. Justin, Joseph,
Jim Canella, Lynn sheard In, Miranda Moore, Cally Weisman, Len Brown,
Jason Hope, Cher, Lemis, Nick Stump, Mike Rohrbacher and everybody,
(57:43):
and how stuff works for required listening. I'm Scott Goldman.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, Executive
director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the Clive
Davis Theater, I have the chance to speak with artists
from across the musical spectrum about their careers, their inspirations,
and their creative process. Now, I am a very lucky guy,
as are the two hundred people that get to join
me at the Grammy Museum. Now with Required Listening, I'm
(00:22):
excited to share these interviews with you. On today's episode,
my conversation with singer songwriter al O Black. We got
together just after he released a new track called Brooklyn
in the summer. He released his major label debut, Lift
Your Spirit, in two thousand fourteen, and his track Waked
Me Up, a collaboration with the E D M artist
of VICI, reached the top five of the Billboard chart
(00:44):
and top charts around the world. Lift Your Spirit received
a Grammy nomination for Best R and B Album at
the fifty seven Annual Grammy Awards. Most recently, Black served
as the guide for the film America's Musical Journey, traveling
throughout the country as he traced the roots of American music.
Most important, he is passionate about using his artistic platform
(01:06):
to affect social change while continuing to create music with
a mindful positivity. So let's go to the Clive Davis
Theater and listen to my conversation with Alo Black. All Right, well, um,
Alo Black, welcome to required Listening. Thanks thanks for having me.
You know we're we're thrilled to have you. Um. I
want to chat a little bit about, you know, some
(01:28):
of the new music that you've been making. Um, there's
a there's a track out Brooklyn in the summer, um, um,
which you know, according to the things I've read, UM,
isn't somewhat of a new direction for you? I think, yeah,
I think every time I put music out in a
new direction. But um, this song is definitely a topic
(01:51):
and a style that I haven't really employed in any
frequency in the past. And I guess you know, if
you usten to the old stuff, there's nothing that sounds
like it. But I think that's a pretty characteristic of
every time I put out new music. Well, you know,
I have had particularly one artist in particular, I recall
(02:11):
a couple of years ago said the following to me.
He said, every record I make is a reaction to
the last record I made really yeah. Yeah. So so
I'm wondering for you, is is this track and maybe
thinking about the album to come somewhat of a reaction
to Lift Your Spirit. No, I think the time has
been has been so far since Lift Your Spirit that
(02:35):
this is more of, I guess, a concerted effort to
make music that hits different themes. I think generally the
songs that I enjoy writing and that I write more
most frequently are songs with themes of aspiration or inspiration motivation,
and Brooklyn the Summer is a love song. So I
thought it would be interesting to try on this new
(02:58):
hat um as an as an artist. For me, it's
a new hat for the music industry. It's the radio
and song as that you hear is like the personal relationship. Yeah,
personal relationship. It's just not something that I used to
do because as a hip hop artist, as an m
C back on the day, you would only do a
love track few and far between. You know, Llo cool
(03:19):
J did I Need Love? He killed it? That was
the best one. Nobody needs to do another one. Um,
it is the is the direction in terms of talking
about personal relationships, somewhat of a window into the new album.
It's sort of what we went on to new album.
I wanted to spend more time talking about relationships and
(03:42):
and songs that had um a story about about love
that wasn't just general um you know, love for humanity,
which is is what I do quite often. UM. I
wanted to be more specific about romantic relationships. And this
is um, you know, just for me. I look at
(04:02):
I look at my contemporaries and think about the songs
that I've made is that have been become hits, and
they've all been other than romantic topics. I figured I
could probably, I could probably you know, sell a few
songs with the romantic topic. But aside from the business,
it was just, uh, you know, I I'm married. I'm married,
and I have kids, and I have love in my life,
(04:24):
and I wanted to express this side of my artist dream.
Does it um? Does it require a different kind of songwriting.
It does a different kind of headspace. It does require
different headspace and different songwriting, especially when you're not used
to it. Like I mean, I can be open about
a lot of things in my music. The one thing
I never was open about and I have to learn
to be open about is you know, my my relationships,
(04:47):
my personal relationships. So I think I cheated a little bit,
especially with Brooklyn in the Summer. I borrowed someone else's relationship. Um.
I've collaborated collaborate a lot on this new album, and
this song was co written with Jay Stoler, who's a
a brilliant songwriter and singer. But this is Brooklyn in
(05:08):
the Summer, is his love story. I just helped to write, um,
you know, edited and write the bridge and kind of
make it come to life. Sonically, it's, um, it's got
it's it's got a terrific energy yeah to it. Um,
And I'm wondering if that too, You're just just thinking
about the sound of the song is a different direction, Yeah,
(05:32):
I mean sonically it's a it's much more of a
pop sound and polished sound than I'm used to, you
know when in the past, um my first solo album,
shine Through, I was just kind of making uh mixture
of all different genres and sounds and styles, but I
wanted it to be gritty and so it had its
(05:52):
gritten it. And then the Good Things album was throwback soul,
so it you know by its own Nay, sure, it
had to have some grit and then lift your spirit.
Was this kind of mixture of the sonic fidelity of
hip hop, the musicality of soul music, and folks soul
vocal um on top. But I didn't really push for
(06:15):
pop in this. In this particular track, Brooklyn in the Summer,
it feels soulful. It's written soulful. The melodies and the
lyrics are really um unique, but there's a nice polish
on top, the you know, kind of makes it a
pop track. Yeah, yeah, you can. You can definitely hear that.
(06:36):
And I'm wondering, for you know, for you, is this
taking your music in a more modern direction, because I
think sometimes I think sometimes you've been saddled a little
bit with that throwback sort of Yeah. I mean, you
know podcast, Yeah, throwback is where I've made my name.
(06:57):
So um, you know, I find that in the music business,
you in the business really, you know, not necessarily the
art of it. There are characters that exist, and you
you play your role. And when you play a role
well enough, you become consistent enough for people to recognize
and remember who you are and to expect and um anticipate,
(07:19):
and you want to give them something new, but you
also want to give them something familiar. Um, with Brooklyn
in the summer, I can see where people will hear
it and have no clue that it's me singing, And
I think that's interesting. It's a it's an interesting experiment
to try, especially you know, in in this era of
the game. The last record I put out streaming wasn't
the standard. It was just the It was kind of
(07:42):
an introductory or early period. But now it's the standard,
and we'll see how it works, you know. Um, if
the song on its own merit will will rise without
an attachment to my history or my name. We'll see.
I think it will, and that you know, these days,
perhaps more more than ever, that's the challenge for artists,
(08:06):
is kind of finding finding their place, becoming recognizable for
a sound, but having the freedom to be an artist. Yeah.
For me, if I if I had, if I have
not uh signed a contract with a company where I
(08:26):
was going to have a partnership and we have to
have mutual decisions on what we release, it would be
it would be crazy for people to understand what I'm
trying to do. They wouldn't have an idea of what
my direction is or what my sound is because I
make signs and songs and every style and every genre,
and there's for me, there are no rules. And because
there are no rules, I need a producer to to
(08:48):
kind of corral wrangle me in and like make it
sound consistent and and offer some um, you know, some semblance,
some symmetry across the across the project. Otherwise, really it's
going to be everywhere, um, which in one sense is
an advantage. You know, you you you want, you want
(09:11):
to be artistically curious. I think it's an advantage these
days because I think there's something there's something about the
roller coaster ride that is is um exciting and fun
for people who are listening to music and enjoying the
story of an artist's journey. Um. I think when long
the days of of a it's kind of the superhero
(09:34):
character of an artist aren't long gone. They're still around,
but I think they need to be challenged in a
major way. I love when I see an artist transform
Andre three thousand, going from rap guy to singing guy
to acting guy, you know what I'm saying. And to
see Childish Gambigo do the same kind of rap, acting, singing,
(09:54):
it's it's interesting and I think it is the way.
It really is the way to graduate in hip hop.
And I graduated early because I you know, I started
doing hip hop and and I started doing the singing
thing in two thousand five, so I was kind of
following the footsteps of Andre and Lauren Hill. Um. And
(10:16):
I just want to see more of that transformation happen
faster and not so typecast. Yeah. But but in you know,
in the in the era now of of streaming, there
there is the opportunity because it is so now immediate.
I mean, you could immediate. The metabolism is you could
literally you could record something here today and it could
(10:37):
be it could be up on Spotify tomorrow and you know,
around the world instantly. Um. And And what I find
fascinating about particularly with you know, with streaming, the opportunity
for discovery as a listener is greater than it's ever been.
Now there's nobody telling you what the radio isn't like
(10:58):
curating what you're what you're hearing. You have to be
a little more proactive as a listener, I think sort of.
I mean there's also you know, it ends up being
a top down system. There are just uh functional uh
technologies and methodologies that we can't get away from, like
a list. So we have play lists. We don't have
play trees, right, we don't have play um associative diagrams.
(11:25):
It's a list and somebody chooses what goes at the
top that's hot works. So although radio is not giving
you your your top down kind of choices, somebody is.
It's not all of the playlists somewhere. Um, it would be.
It would be awesome if it was truly random and
that everybody had the opportunity when they went on to
(11:47):
discover something brand new and not always have the same
ten songs at the top of the playlist. Yet are
further um you know, kind of popularizing those ten songs
do the deep Die. But that's how it is, Yes,
and you're right, it is more proactive. It is more proactive.
You can you can go online and you have to
kind of know what you want to find unless you're
(12:08):
going to sit back and let somebody give you the
ribbe they've already chosen. Yeah. Yeah. Um. The the other
thing that you've talked about particularly think think about the
album that that that's coming, is that it should be
more reflective of your live before that's right, you know. I, um,
my live performance is is high energy and I love
(12:29):
to do call and response and sing with the crowd
and get them to dance. It's just part of my
my background learning how to rock a stage as a
hip hop artist. So when I started singing, I was like, well,
I don't want to do boring slow songs. I don't
you know, that's not that's not fun for a show.
And I'm still learning to become comfortable with that. And
I do it well when it's like me and a
and an acoustic performance with my guitarist on my pianist
(12:52):
and you know, to sit down audience and I get
I get to just talk to people and keep it real,
comfortable and relaxed. But when it's a standing you know,
standing audience and there are big speakers and I have
a full band, I'm ready to rock. Yeah. Um and
and and there is something you know, there is something
remarkable that that that happens, you know, particularly in those
(13:15):
you know, in those bigger live performance settings in terms
of the energy, um, that is hard to recreate. I
think in the studio, I mean in the studio is
one thing I definitely have learned to be less picky
about what happens with the recording because I know that
(13:36):
the song is going to grow on stage, and then
I have the rest of my life to rerecord it
or let other people in the world re record it
and and build it and let it grow. Um. The
getting what you do live captured in the studio, yeah,
very difficult. And sometimes it just doesn't make sense, it
(13:57):
doesn't translate. Well, I've tried that. So I tried the
the old method of write a song, tour the song,
then record the song. And when we recorded the songs,
they just didn't feel right on record. M Yeah. And
I'm sure it works for other people who just didn't
work for me. Yeah yeah, um um, well, you know,
and you know, unfortunately, a lot of times the studio
(14:19):
can be kind of a cold, you know, sort of
still environment. You don't feel, it doesn't have the same energy.
I think there are artists who can who have the
the ability to put themselves into that mind state so
that they can get the stage performance in the studio,
(14:42):
and then there are artists who cannot alter their mind
state at all. They're always on, just always on, so
it's gonna be that performance. I'm you know, I'm different.
I'm a very relaxed kind of guy. When I'm on stage.
There's definitely the live energy character. Um, I can, I can.
(15:02):
I can turn it on in the studio, it's just
not going to be the sing Yeah. I was interested
to learn that you have, um, a real sensitivity to
the singers song classic singer songwriters. Yeah. Um, you know,
whether it's Joni Mitchell or Cat Stevens or James Taylor, whoever,
(15:24):
whoever it might be, what is it about that music?
It's a it's you know, let's take the music aside.
It's just the words, right, putting the words on paper
and somebody read it and it'll make them cry. That's important.
I get really frustrated with music on in the in
the marketplace that is not fully um, you know, put
(15:46):
thought out and put together. Like some people if they're
making a song, they allow the production to like stilt
whatever they're lacking on the lyrical side, and they allow
you know, maybe the the mix too fulfill what they're
(16:06):
lacking on the melodic side or whatever. I think that's
just lazy, Like write some words down first, make sure
those words are bomb. Make sure that if you play,
if you if you let somebody read those words there's
no music and your no voice, that they're going to
feel like it's an important story that matters. Then come
up with a great melody and make sure that melody
works for a three year old and eight three year old.
(16:29):
Then find some other instruments to add to it, and
a great producer who can kind of direct what sound
it should be for the time. That's the marketing. The
production is the marketing. But if you don't have a song,
I don't want to hear all the extra marketing because
because you're just selling me vacuous uh sound. Every I think,
(16:52):
every um great producer will tell you it comes down
to the song. You can do all kinds of things
in the studio, you can make all kinds of magic.
I've done it before, and I you know, I pissed
myself off when I do it, because like I know better.
I know better than just string some some empty words
together on top of a beat that sounds great. It's
(17:14):
really important for me. And that's why I love a
Joni Mitchell or a James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Bernie toppin right.
Because Elton John in the early stuff didn't didn't pen
he just did the melodies and music. Um, those our
poems that means something forever, and you know, it's that's
(17:37):
what I That's what I like to live up to
and try to Are you? Are you? Are you writing
all the time? Are you? Are you disciplined about that?
I'm not disciplined in the way where I'm like writing
a song every day from beginning to end. But I
do have a discipline of of constantly fielding inspiration from
(17:59):
the atmosphere wherever, whatever is happening. Yesterday I had a
conversation with a friend. He said a string of words,
and a whole other string of words that were sort
of related came to mind, and I wrote them down
because I feel like this might be a great idea.
Is like when I wrote, um, wake me up when
it's all over, Wake me up. The first idea I
(18:19):
had was wake me up when it's all over. When
I'm older and I'm sober, And that's it was the
first thing I wrote was wake me up when it's
all over. That's a common cliche for race. Everybody knows
that what comes next is where you do the familiar
and the novel right. People want something familiar, They want
something new That's what a roller coaster, right is. I
(18:40):
know I'm going to strap up, I just don't know
when I'm gonna drop. So when I'm older and sober
didn't sit with me, well because it wasn't my story.
When I'm wiser and I'm older. Was the rewrite that
I ended up doing, and it worked, um, interesting and
enough that when I brought those lyrics in, it was
(19:01):
going to be working with Vici and either one of
those lyrics would have worked, which kind of uh, you know,
the coincidence. Um, But I'm sure we'll get to that conversation. Well, well,
I as long as as long as you're there, I
have to ask you about about Vici. Um. Yeah. So
unfortunately gets to hear of his passing. It's deeply saddening.
(19:24):
It is. It is really hard for me to take
because I know how much he loved music, and I
feel like, um, we've we've lost one of the you know,
greatest producers of our time. And I say that because
I've worked with a few, um a lot of different producers. Um,
he didn't have the same kind of musical knowledge that
(19:49):
some of the producers and musicians that I work with
have in terms of training, but he had I'm sorry,
he did have the knowledge. I don't know how he
had the knowledge, but maybe he was, you know, savant
or something like that. But when he worked on music,
he knew what he wanted and how to get it
with the tools that he was using. And I just
(20:10):
found that really fascinating. Um. It's just yeah, very tragic
that he's that he's gone. UM. I read that you
had something like forty songs kind of ready to go
or in some stage, in some stage, in some stage
for the album. So the question becomes, what do you
(20:31):
how do you choose what ends up on the record.
Do you have criteria? Is it? Is it thematic? Is
its sonic? Or is it just a gut thing? Well, okay,
so I can't take the business man out of me. Okay,
I've always I've always done from the beginning of my career,
like handled all my business and then even after university,
(20:53):
I went to go work in corporate America. So there's
like this this business guy who's like, Okay, what's going
to be the the best package to put into the marketplace? Um?
And and so I'm always thinking in that way, and
that's sometimes how I choose the songs, and that's definitely
works with the record label. Record label wants like four
(21:13):
songs that are going to be no brainer. These are
you know, they have artistic merit and then they also
will work in the marketplace. And then the rest of
the songs, I just kind of choose which ones I
like that can round out an album. And because I
want to have a theme of more of the romantic
(21:35):
and love topic on this on this album, I'm going
to choose the songs that lean in that way rather
than the songs that lean towards inspiration motivation, Yeah, aspiration.
Um you you you've mentioned a couple of times, you know,
being in partnership, you know, with a with with the
record label. Um um. And and you know I've talked
(21:55):
to many artists for whom that sort of cuts both ways. Um.
You seem to have a very good, very grounded perspective
of what it means to be in business with a
major record label. Yeah. I mean it's a business. Yeah,
you sign a contract, it's an agreement, it's your word.
So you just hope that both you know, both sides
(22:16):
will keep the word. And that's how you operate based
on that trust. Um and and you know, one of
one of the things that that seems to be happening
UM across whether it's hip hop or pop, is you know,
the idea of artists and particularly at the at the
shall we say inspiration of of a record label going
into the studio with multiple producers, multiple writers and and
(22:41):
and one man's opinion making music by committee. You know,
in effect that that you know that that seems to
be what's what's happening UM. Has that ever been suggested
to you? No, no, no, it's not suggested. It's just
the modus operandi. That's just the way. That's the way
I found it to be in this in this most
more recent iteration of my career. In the past, there
(23:04):
was no committee. And I think art can't be done
by committee. But you know, that's this is the record business.
If I wanted to just create art, I wouldn't be
in the record business. I would just create art, and
I do. I just don't mingle it with the business.
So when I do my my em and On project,
which is my hip hop project with DJ Exile, we
just make the stuff and we put it out, We
(23:26):
put it up on the streaming services, we put it
up on the download services, and then I put it
on my website for people to download for free, because
that is art. I'm not selling it. There's no business here.
I'm not trying to compete. I'm not trying to battle
rap against somebody else. Yes I got bars, Yes I
can beat people in a freestyle battle, but I'm not
here to compete. I'm here to show you the art.
And I have a message in my art now when
(23:46):
I'm singing, and I'll do stuff with my label that's
a different story. Yeah did you did you have to
carve that out of your label deal? Yeah? It was
carved out. Yeah yeah. Um um, you're you're originally from Panama.
My parents are from Paranamm. I grew up here in
southern California. How how much do your Panamanian roots play
(24:08):
into your your music? It's in there, It's in there.
It's almost every song I'd say. Um, I grew up
listening to a lot of Caribbean music, So there's there
are rhythms West African rhythms that make it into my
songs that people don't here necessarily. But and sometimes I
don't even know until like way later that it's there,
And and you know, from like bass lines that are
(24:31):
that are slowed versions of calypso based lines, or um
montoono rhythms from saw some music, or the clave in
in um you know in Latin sausa and Latin music.
All these things will make it in. And then there's
a certain particular kind of way that um I was
employing in in this process of of the album. UM
(24:54):
that mimicked the crooning style of a salceto, like the
way um you know salsa singers saying there's a very
particular style that's from you know, like the early early
seventies and early era of salsa, which is a derivative
son and I wanted to use it because it felt
(25:16):
so good, it felt so home, it felt so natural
to me. Um. I don't know if any of that's
going to make the album, but these songs are written
and they'll come at at some point, you know. In
in March, you released a track called make Way Um
and and and this is this is a narrative that
you were that you returned to, you know, this this
struggle to overcome right, tell me, tell me about the
(25:39):
story of the underdog and yeah, and and the power
to persevere boost trap story. It's for me that's blues
and and uh, it's a I don't know, it's just
something that is it comes naturally to write, and it
(26:00):
feels like maybe I'm If I'm going to try to
explain it, I would say I'm channeling my family's story,
channeling the story of my my parents coming from Panama
to make a better life in the US, channeling the
story of their grandparents moving from the Caribbean to Panama
to build the canal and and find work. Um, I'm channeling,
(26:24):
you know, the story of the story of hardship. Um.
And I think it's the that tension of the challenge
of success versus defeat that you know, I'm interested in well,
and and it's I mean, for you know, for anyone
(26:45):
trying to make their way, that's the central part of
of life, quite frankly, is you know it is finding
your way, making your mark. It is. I think definitely,
it's it's definitely a Western, a Western ideology. And I'm
you know, I'm perfectly suited for it growing up here.
(27:06):
Yea and yeah. Um. In the song are you are
you encouraging yourself as well as you're encouraging others? The
song is more about self encouragement. Yeah. Um, it's the
lyrics make way I'm coming through, you know, not for nothing.
It was written with the intention of being this kind
of this kind of motivational song, a song that will
(27:31):
be impactful for uh moments when people need a cheerleader,
a coach, and you know, maybe that's maybe that's what
I what I am in the in the end is like,
you know, like uh, motivational singer instead of a motivational speaker. Well, um,
(27:52):
and I would say, you know, given what you mentioned earlier,
and we'll talk about this in a minute. You know,
your your intention to be inspirational, your intention to you know,
to provide you know, a positive, oftentimes very supportive message
in your music. Um, speaks to that, It speaks to
(28:12):
where you are as a person. Yeah, I think for
I don't. It's hard for me to describe. I just
do it because it's it really does come naturally to me.
It's normal. It's the way I feel, it's the way
I think. Um, I have this you know, overwhelming sense
(28:32):
of of calm and confidence and I love to use
that in my music. It's hard to do that and
be and make it sound good. If you're just completely overconfident.
I usually wait for the course to get there, and
I use the verses to to show that there's doubt
(28:55):
and that there's something to overcome, and to show some
self deprecation and also to show some um humanity. In
the first lyric of the Man, I wrote, I believe
every lie that I ever told. And it sounded at
the time I was writing it, it just sounded like
a cool thing to say. But then as I you know,
(29:16):
as I dig deeper in it and really think about it,
it it feels like, um, you know, a sentiment that
everybody can can resonate with. From a philosophical side, if
we just pars it logically, it makes sense. Of course,
you believe every lie you ever told. It wasn't a lie,
It was the truth to you. But then there are
(29:38):
times where you really know better, but you force yourself
to believe or to act in a certain way because insecurity, safety,
all of the you know, issues that may that may
affect your your psyche do you often U do do?
(30:01):
Just in this case, um do songs even perhaps months
years after you've written them change, Do they reveal something
just as you were as you were just saying, um,
something different. Um. Wow, yes they do when other people
(30:24):
tell me. Sometimes lyrics that I write can be heard
in a different way and it creates an entirely new meaning,
but a very relevant meaning. It's like my my daughter's
name is Mandela. I wanted to name her Mandela, you know,
(30:45):
I wanted to name her the Sanskrit word that you
know describes a circle spiritual design. And my wife thought
I was saying Mandela, and I I thought, you know what,
even better we have both Yeah, and it makes it
makes so much sense. Um. And I find out in
(31:06):
lyrics too, when people miss here the lyric, it just
it makes it even more rich. Well, that and that
and that's also that's also the beauty of artistry is
you you put it out there, whatever it is you
have to say creatively. How the world interprets and accepts
it is sometimes not if you're you're making Yeah, that's true.
(31:29):
I mean there are there are lyrics that I wish
I could change because I felt like they were the
good for a now, Lyrics that I didn't get a
chance to like improve. Um. And you know, people won't
know what those are unless I say I'm but uh,
I always I always think to myself, what could be
the better lyric to write that could beat this one? Um?
(31:53):
And sometimes I throw them in on stage. Yeah yeah, yeah,
well that I guess. I guess, I guess. I guess
most and most any artist would have, you know, that
sort of artistic second guessing. You know you're there's not
a second guess. I know it's not the real I
know it's not the right thing. I'm just gonna do it.
It's right now. I'm gonna do it. We're gonna record it,
and if we get to it will fix it later.
(32:14):
But if we don't, it'll be good enough. Um. So
you were involved in in this remarkable film project, um,
the American Journey. Yeah. Um. And and there was a
song you released in conjunction with the film My Story. Um,
before we get to that, how did you get involved
with the film. The producers of the film mcgail, every
(32:37):
Freeman Films, we wanted to invite me into submit a
song and do an interview and in a longer conversation,
we just kind of helped craft the entire story, like
the arc of the of the film, because I didn't
think they really had to handle them on how they
wanted to approach music. They knew they wanted to do
something with music, so UM, along with my my business partner,
(32:59):
Gavin Massy, we spoke to them about doing a journey
across America from cities that were important in the birth
of a genre. And all of the major genres of
the world were born here in the US. UM. So
that was the discussion we had and I ended up,
you know, winning the opportunity to be the featured artist
(33:20):
taking that journey and and quite a joy. I mean,
you went yea from New Orleans to experience jazz, up
the Mississippi River to Memphis to talk about blues and rock,
further up the Missisipi River to Chicago than jazz again.
I spoke with Ramsey Lewis UM and then went to
New York to talk about hip hop and in Nashville
(33:41):
let's talk about country. Went to Miami to talk about
the Miami sound with Gloria Stefan. So you're doing my job. Yeah, Yeah,
I got a chance to interview some of my heroes.
That was awesome. Yeah, talk a little bit I read,
particularly Ramsey Lewis. Yeah, Ramsey Lewis was a great meeting.
Idea I had his records and I sampled from him,
and I had a chance to actually sit down and
(34:01):
meet him and talk about his his upbringing and how
he made music. But one of the things that really
touched me was the story that he told about Maurice White. Um.
You know, I'm a huge fan of Earth, Wind and Fire,
and I didn't really know the backstory. And I think
there's a biography, autobiography that I need to read. Um.
I think Maurice put one out I'll get But Um,
(34:25):
Ramsey Lewis told me about how Maurice was this very shy,
um and quiet drummer that would hide behind his symbols.
He would tilt his symbols so the audience couldn't see him. Um.
So he devised some way to like bring Maurice out
(34:45):
of his shell, and he gave him a colimba and
asked him to do a columbus solo in the middle
of a song. So Maurice would do the climbu solo
behind the symbols on his throne, behind the drums. And
then over time he got more confident he was stand
up and do the solo, and then he moved to
the front of the stage. To the microphone to do
the solo and Um, once he I think built up
(35:10):
enough confidence, he just quit the band. He told Ramsey,
I'm going to l A, I'm gonna start a band
with my brother, and they started Earth Winning Fire. And
I think that's a beautiful story because I love the
way that Ramsey tells it, because of course he makes
himself the causal agent, and I think that's fine. I
think he should as he should. He's he was a mentor,
he was a big brother. He was an inspiration to
(35:30):
to Maurice. And I wonder what would have happened if
that Kalimbo didn't exist. That's really the question. And I
love that. Uh, you know, one hero passed the torch
down to another hero. Um. Actually reading about this caused
me to go back and listen to some early Ramsey
Lewis albums and and you know, I think sometimes his
(35:55):
his artistry gets lost a little, you know, a little bit.
Um and there were there was one from it was
a live record and it was it was just it
was terrific. It's just just terrific. So thank you for
for tipping me back today. I was I was happy,
happy to do that. I got a chance to talk
(36:16):
to Gloria Stefan, and like one of those moments in
the studio, she was listening to the song that I
was writing inspired by the trip, called My Story, and
it was um uh. It was cool to meet, to
meet her and to talk to her. But as she
listened to the song, she heard a lyric in the
second verse that she really liked and it meant something
(36:40):
to her. It was, gray hairs are the ribbons. No,
gray hairs are the trophies for a game of life
well played, and the wrinkles are ribbons for the progress
that I've made. And she, you know, I think it
made sense to her because of her age, right sure,
and she was like, oh, that's a that's awesome. I
ended up taking that lyric from the second verse and
(37:02):
I just put at the top of the song. I
opened the song with it in the recording the final
recording UM almost as a as a thank you an
odd to her, but you know, um also as a
nod to all of my heroes, because if if it
resonated with her and all of my heroes are you
know of age, then I think my story is is
(37:24):
in part inspired by my heroes. UM and and that's
a I mean, that line is just a terrific entree
point into that song. Yeah, it's fantastic. Um. I also
understand that that um Lewis Armstrong and and some of
the things you learned about him. Um, we we're inspiring.
(37:48):
Tell tell me a little bit about YEA. So, Louis
Armstrong UM started his music, his musical journey at a
super young age. And I think it's seventeen. He was
on his own, going up the Missisippi River playing for money. Um,
and his journey is probably one of the most important
in uh, i'd say, black music, in music in general,
(38:14):
and in the civil rights movement. There were several factors
from entertainers and athletes that helped to normalize blackness. But
he became Louis Armstrong UM, and he was able to
transcend color, and he became an ambassador of the US
through music. He became an ambassador of music through his personalities, character,
(38:36):
his artistry. UM. And I started my first instrument was
the trumpet, inspired by you know TV Black and White
TV that I would see that dizzy lesbian and Louis Armstrong.
So um, UM, going going back in your personal story, UM,
(38:58):
you were talking about Ll cool J, you know earlier, Um,
and you were you were influenced by him. Yeah, all
my I started writing rap lyrics at age nine, and
all of them sounded like they were cool J lyrics
there definitely, you know, I didn't I didn't paraphrase or
or or um or plagiarized, but it was all in
the style of for sure, Yeah, what what was it?
(39:19):
What was it about his his writing? It was in
your young years. It was all the macho bravado um,
you know, very very very confident um lyricism that he did. Um.
And also just the fact that I had that was
the one record I actually had. My dad UM had
purchased Michael Jackson Bad and Ello cool J Bigger and
(39:44):
Deafer Bad. He didn't know which one to get because
he was instructed to go by bad Um. I was.
I was doing a play UM in the community and
the director wanted me to dance to Michael Jackson's Bad,
so he asked my dad to go by the record
so I could practice. I ended up practicing Llo cool
(40:05):
J lyrics for the whole summer and learned that album
from front to back. Yeah, we were talking earlier about
you know, the importance of being um, you know, having
positive messages in your music, And I'm wondering in terms
of the writing having you know, always having that that sense,
(40:29):
does that give you kind of guide posts, you know,
parameters if you will, in terms of being you know,
creating a positive message about you know, whatever you might
be be writing about. But it kind of gives you
lane to work in. Yeah, yes and no, I mean
I'll write and create whatever I want. Like, there's heinous
concepts that I would never release to the public that
(40:52):
I never want my kids to hear me saying things
that you know, I think. Of course, contemporaries are much
more doble doing. It's just not me. You know, it's
not my it's not my character, and it's not something
that I feel like it's uplifting humanity. So my goal
is to use my music and my artistry, my personality,
my character, my interviews to uplift humanity. It's the job
(41:14):
that I have been, um been rewarded with for with
my talent. So I take it seriously. Did did did that? Um?
Did that desire help kind of fuel the transition for
you from hip hop two, from rapping to being a
(41:35):
single sort of I think it was circumstances that fueled it.
I think gangster rap really kind of just uh made
it impossible for me to exist in in the hip
hop world um as I was as I was developing,
because it became so such a dominant um subgenre within
(41:56):
the genre that it overtook the back hack kind of
conscious you know, philosophical wrap that I was into. Plus
I was just getting into more heavier stuff and and
more interested in, like in different emotions than kind of
the monotony of hip hop. So you know, it's it's
(42:20):
it's interesting to see how how the world is it's
experiencing hip hop now and kind of who the luminaries are.
But then there's a there's a whole um landscape of
of people in the game that aren't luminaries, but they're
in the game, And I'm like, why are he's taking us?
(42:42):
Why are you taking us space? Get out the way
that somebody who actually has something to say say it
and and and have a presence. But you know, I
think it's it's a function of the the industry, the business,
the distribution method, you know, streaming is skewed towards youth
(43:02):
because they have ample discretionary time to stream. So then
because that's what pays the bills for the record labels,
they're going to they're going to, you know, you know,
create that as much as possible. And there's from you
just just thinking about the current climate that we're all
(43:22):
facing these days. It seems as though we were more
divided then we've ever been, along cultural lines, along political lines,
along economic lines, and and and for you, and this
is this is really a personal question, how do you
keep your chin up? Well, I don't know if I
believe that we're that divided. I know it seems that way,
(43:47):
But when I go around the world, I see audiences
that are completely mixed and shoulder to shoulder fellowshipping and
the beauty and so celebration of music. Um. And I
feel like what we receive in the information that we seek,
(44:09):
or in the algorithms that seek us UH, can tell
us a story that is not true. And I think
the true story is that we have so much more
in common and that we we want togetherness more than
we are are willing to accept. Because capitalism doesn't work
(44:32):
unless there's tension, and that tension is going to be
the driving um. You know, motivation UM to get us
to purchase and heal. We make these purchases to cover
up and purchases too to subdue UM. But if we
(44:56):
find a way to just you know, remove all of
all of those those messages, remove the desires that are
created by marketing and media and the attitudes and the
feelings that are created by marketing and media, will realize
that we are much more um similar than different. And
(45:23):
you know, the the big hot button topics that that
keep getting played are quite trivial compared to the things
that really matter. Food, clothing, shelter, you know, love, UM.
You've you've been kind of outspoken on on any number
(45:45):
of of important issues. You know, in topics um, immigration, incarceration, education,
the issue of malaria. Um. Um. Where does that sense
of responsibility for you come from? Uh? When I decided
(46:06):
to sign a contract with a major label, I realized
that I had access to a megaphone that was much
bigger than what I had prior, and that I have
a duty to use it in the right way, and
that there are um roads and pathways that were already
laid for me by my predecessors. You know, UM, there's
(46:27):
you know, ah, Harry Belafonte, c Any Potier, Robinson, um
My Angelou. Even if we want to get even more current,
Michael Jackson and I say a lot and it when
people asked, But Michael Jackson, I'd say eight percent of
(46:47):
his songs were social message songs. He was just dressed
up with the great marketing tool of pop music. You know,
Black or White was the only hit song about racial tolerance?
Why is it the only hit song about racial tolerance?
Should be more? You've talked about his particularly his skill
(47:07):
at at including these kinds of messages in you know,
arguably some of the best pop music ever made, and
that that was It's the music that's the vector. Yeah,
the medicine for the spoonful of sugar with the medicine,
and and so I use I use that as a
as a template like if I can if I can
(47:28):
figure out how to get the message into the lyric
and then wrap it up in in the production to
get to get it to the ears, then then I've
I've won the battle. You've referred to yourself and I
love this term as an artivist. Um explain a little bit. Yeah,
(47:50):
it's a it's a uh combination of the word activists,
and artists, and it is the use of my art
for positive social transformation. And I have friends who are
visual artists like Ednesto Yannam who works closely with Shepherd Ferry,
who are also artivists. And I have friends that are
(48:14):
dancers that um, that are artivists who create the movements
and choreography to tell stories um about humanity, um and equality.
And then you know, ah, the music musicians. There are
(48:35):
so many great musicians. One of my favorite of all
times Eugene McDaniels, who, um, you know, wrote I think
the best political album of all time in called The
Headless Heroes of the Apocalypse. But unfortunately it was so
good that Nixon's administration shut it down, pulled it from
(48:55):
the shelves. So I've covered it and I'm you know,
my goal is to is to spread that message again. Yeah. Um.
You mentioned a couple of people here just just now,
Harry Belafonte among them. Who would you consider your mentors,
people who have offered good advice, encouragement, mentorship. I wouldn't
(49:15):
say that there's any one person that I've sat with
and had mentorship on a regular basis, but I glean
from folks like Harry Belafonte and Um, the words of
Nelson Mandela Mahama Gandhi, the words of Martin Luther King.
(49:36):
These are you know, the the elders who have made
their statements. UM. That lasts a lifetime. And if they're
not Ah, if their words are not echoed, if their
philosophies and ideologies are not followed, then they will they
(49:56):
will die with them. UM. Because I have this megaphone,
I have to use it to further those ideologies and
those words, because those are the ones that hold true UM,
And to be a point of difference in the marketplace,
(50:18):
to be the counterpoint UM when things are skewed a
little bit dark and depressed and violent or misogynistic. I
heard a lyric on the radio once that was Live Fast,
Die Young, and I thought to myself, the person saying
this doesn't really mean it. But when they say it,
(50:42):
they offer everyone else an opportunity to say it a
hundred times, because those words become a mantra that you sing. Now,
everything that comes into your body and your mind is
you're consuming, becomes part of you in some way. Hopefully
you're strong enough to reject the the pragmatic side of
(51:06):
the message, and it's just theory. I don't have faith
that everybody is strong enough for that, especially teenagers who
are trying to develop their sense of self. So I
decided I wanted to write a song that was the
counterpoint to that, and if I can get the right
marketing around it, the right production and everything, then it
would serve as counterpoint and hopefully become a bigger message
(51:28):
of not wanting to live fast and die young. M Um.
Your your father spent thirty years in the Marines, um
and and I was it was it was it was
reading that that. Um. He always felt as though, even
even whether whether he was, you know, on duty or
(51:51):
an active service, when he went out wherever, whether it
was here or overseas, he represented the United States. Yeah,
um um And And I'm I'm wondering, first of all,
did did he pass that sense onto you? He did.
He definitely passed the sense on to me that I
am an ambassador of this country when I'm outside of
(52:15):
the country. Um. And you know, I understand the sentiment.
I agree with it. I take it a step further
and say, I'm just I'm a global citizen. I'm an
ambassador of humanity. My job is to is to show
what what we can be in when we're being you know,
(52:40):
good to other people, and and and it has to
it has to be thorough unless I'm super specifically, super
specific and super candid that it is strictly for art's sake.
And then it has to be through and through. It
can't just be like one day, one character or another
(53:00):
day another character, um, you know, because I think that
that could be harmful too to the world. Um. One
of the things that that you've also been been outspoken
about and and something that that the Recording Academy has
also been very much uh, you know, kind of at
the front of the line is the compensation for songwriters
(53:22):
and making sure that songwriters are appropriately compensated as compensated
and credited. Yes, yes, tell me, tell me tell me
a little bit. You know, how did how did you
first kind of come to this issue? And and tell
us why. I started reading copyright law pretty early in
(53:42):
my in my music career because I wanted to copyright
my my songs. So I think my first copyright was
two thousand one. Um. I sent in the paperwork and
I started understanding what everything meant and then looking at
some of the things that were obligatory and and kind
of um statutory things that we don't have a decision about.
(54:07):
And I look at other industries and I see so
much leeway and and so many rights that are available.
But as songwriters are one of the most heavy, heavily
restricted business people in the world, small businesses, as songwriters,
because of the laws that restrict us from you know,
kind of deciding the value of our creation. I'd love
(54:29):
to see those kind of things change. And so I
threw my hat in the ring to join the fight
against this kind of this antiquated system that needs to
be updated, especially as technology is changing in businesses are
are are you know, making money hand over fist where
(54:49):
it's not trickling down to the actual creator of the content.
I think it's important for songwriters, the people who put
the emotions in to a form that will translate to
other people. Um. Yeah, it's time for them to be
treated fairly and respected for the what they've done. And
(55:10):
we and we recently got got to build through the House. Yes,
the Music Modernization Act ums what to do in the
Senate but unanimously passed. Yeah, it would be hard, it
would be hard to think that it would not pass
in the Senate if it passed unitious really in the House.
How could human beings be so different? Mm hmm, I don't.
(55:31):
I don't think human beings will be so different. Well,
I'm I'm I'm I'm hopeful. Corporations on the other hand,
different story, Yeah, different story. Um. So last question, UM,
I've read of your your personal aspiration, um to be
a member of the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Oh yeah,
that's uh. I've have made the goal to be on
(55:56):
my best behavior when it comes to songwriting, because you
can't get to Songwriters Hall of Fame by just writing hits.
There are plenty of people with a lot of hits
that will never get there because their hits didn't have
the real merit of songwriting. Um. And so if I
don't make it there, at least I know that everything
(56:18):
that I did was with the intention of getting there,
So there was no there's no fluff. Well, um, we
couldn't be more pleased that that you took the time
to to join us on required listening. That the new
track is called Brooklyn in the Summer. Um, does the
album have a name yet? Or no, the album doesn't
have a name, and I've never done a self titled album,
(56:39):
so who knows. All right, maybe the time. Al Right, well,
we'll look for that later this year. Allo Black, thank
you so much. Nothing describes Alo Black better than the
term artivist. This is truly a thoughtful artist and songwriter,
and I'm excited to hear his new album when it
comes out later this year. For now, check out tracks
like My Story or Brooklyn in the Summer to get
(56:59):
a sense of his current musical state of mind. For fun,
I'd say go back and listen to Ramsey Lewis's nineteen
sixty nine album Another Voyage. It might just give you
a sense as to why Alo finds Ramsey Lewis so compelling.
And that's your required listening for today. We've got fresh
episodes coming to you every Thursday. We'd love to hear
(57:20):
from you, and we're on all the socials at Grammy Museum.
If you're coming to Los Angeles, I hope you'll come
and see us. All the info is at our website
Grammy Museum dot org. As always, props to the team
that brings this podcast to you every week. Justin, Joseph,
Jim Canella, Lynn sheard In, Miranda Moore, Cally Weisman, Len Brown,
Jason Hope, Cher, Lemis, Nick Stump, Mike Rohrbacher and everybody,
(57:43):
and how stuff works for required listening. I'm Scott Goldman.
We'll see you next time.
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